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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.17 22:10:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: HeIIfire11 You and your model..what fing model.
"The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
Quote: And the fact that you can remove a wreck that only I can shoot,tractor beam and has my corp name on it is the problem.
àwhich is easily explained by "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is."
No..there is no can.
àand there are no electrons whizzing around the nucleus in discrete orbits, but Bohr's model still explains the spectral lines of a helium atom.
Whether there is a can or not is completely irrelevant ù the model explains the behaviour of wrecks.
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: cyndrogen The salvaging mechanic is a bit of a pain since tractor beams don't work on wrecks that do not belong to you. So while you CAN salvage other peoples wrecks it's much slower then salvaging your own, you lose money by spending more time salvaging another persons loot when you can make more by running the mission AND salvaging yourself. It's also much easier to accept a mission then deploy probes to scan for the wrecks.
The main point is that it is risk free.
And the main counter-point is that both salvagers face the same risks: being slower than the other guy and not getting the swag. In this competition the mission-runner has some distinct advantages, and in terms of risk vs. effort, the ninja is far more deserving of that reward.
àand in a sense, the same can be said about loot: both parties run the risk of being too slow and not getting the reward, but with the added risk of the mission runner being blown up by the NPCs (negligible) and of the theif being blown up by the MR (negligibleà as long as the MR isn't stupid).
And either way, the mission runner most certainly can respond to the competition.
So you're just going to report me and come back with your same old lame arguments? rofl
No point in arguing with you..I wont be in this game much longer anyways.Just long enough to see you burnNo turning back now..I hope for your sake that this isn't your main. If it is I will have gotten the chance to teach you something about this gamme after all...never start a forum war with your main. Unless it's all you do which might be the case knowing you
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.17 22:16:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Tippia on 17/06/2011 22:17:19
Originally by: HeIIfire11 So you're just going to report me and come back with your same old lame arguments? rofl
There has to be some appeal to ithem since you can't seem to come up with any argument to dispute them.
So, once again: what's wrong with the model? Can you provide an example of a situation where it does not work? And can you demonstrate why it's riskier for the mission-runner to salvage or pick up loot than it is for the ninja? Can you also show how the tools available to the mission-runner does not, in fact, help him in the competition against the ninja? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.18 01:10:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Riedle on 18/06/2011 01:10:42 This is my main even if my trolls were removed. Remember Riedle!
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Aston Martin DB5
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Posted - 2011.06.18 02:48:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Aston Martin DB5 on 18/06/2011 02:50:38 What makes matters worse......the players that do come out to these mission sites are in their fully fitted pvp ships. They basically have complete advantage .... it's not like we're going to fire back at them or something. I guess the counter argument is go dock up and get a bigger and better ship ... lol Well, it's what the Sobek Thoth mentioned, "If I wanted to deal with that garbage, I would move BACK out to 0.0" So basically some people would like to do pve things by themselves without being bothered by other people, which can agree!
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ion Utama
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Posted - 2011.06.18 04:05:00 -
[125]
Sobek Thoth ****ing big baby
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 05:06:00 -
[126]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 05:06:09
Originally by: Riedle Look mom..I'm on the internet!!!111
No you reject..I don't wanna play with you
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.18 08:05:00 -
[127]
Hi, I'm new to this game.
Could you please change it so it fits with my preconceived notions of how an mmo should work?
I dont see what's so hard to understand.
Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is. Competition for the wrecks is the risk for both parties. If they decide to take your can you can choose to attack them, or come back in a pvp boat. That is their risk.
I've been playing for less than a month and have managed to grasp this simple concept. What's the problem?
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 08:38:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Snake Scofield Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is.
Nope.
Originally by: GM Ytterbium The wreck ownership mechanism has recently been changed, and as such will not belong to the character doing most damage to the NPC anymore, but to the pilot who first accepted the mission.
And nope.
Originally by: CCP SoniClover In Kali all ships (player and NPC) will spawn wrecks upon destruction. This will replace the loot can.
I'm not sure what's so hard to understand either really.
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.18 08:47:00 -
[129]
Very good. Nice quotes.
Maybe easier to say that the salvage rights to a wreck don't belong to anybody.
It doesn't matter though, it's obvious you're going to persist regardless of what anyone says. I don't care if it's changed or not, I'll just play it the way it is now.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:55:00 -
[130]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 09:59:56
Originally by: Snake Scofield Edited by: Snake Scofield on 18/06/2011 09:05:40 Very good. Nice quotes.
Maybe easier to say that the salvage rights to a wreck don't belong to anybody.
It doesn't matter though, it's obvious you're going to persist regardless of what anyone says. I don't care if it's changed or not, I'll just play it the way it is now.
Edit:
Actually come to think of it, why should you have any rights to anything? If there's a can sitting in space, first come first served. That's a bit more realistic and more fitting with the eve style in my opinion. Make it all up for grabs, no flagging.
The point I am making is not that it should change really..I don't want the stinking salvage tbh. People assume it belongs to them because of how it works. My point is that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they want it to be. I know they want it free for all and they can have it. But then let everyone tractor beam wrecs, don't protect empty or full wrecks by concord, don't leave my corp name on it empty or not, make wrecks scannable and not players. These are the misleading facts that cause these threads.
Unfinished , sloppy, lazy coded and typical ccp mini profession. Nothing new.
Edit: I have..within the many huge discussions proposed many changes yes and even my favorite (flag the salvager) but what it boils down to is that it's just another unfinished bunch of crap like many other professions in eve and on top of it all in my opinion it is risk free and nothing but a griefer tool. (risk free for the ninja that is)
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 10:03:00 -
[131]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 10:06:02 Honestly I'm sick of the topic. If you really are intrested in this topic read through this which contains all arguments from both sides pretty much. Here you go..have fun.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1501137&page=1
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Bubbles Udan
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Posted - 2011.06.18 11:34:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Sobek Thoth
I have been in-game for almost 7yrs.
*snip*
New Players: I have seen multiple people come in on a trial account. I endeavor to be an ambassador for Eve and help them with questions and even give them a decent frigate once in a while from my Industry Alt (from one of my THREE accounts). It was done for me when I joined up, so I am passing along the good intentions. BUT, after the trial is over, I've seen far too many of these people leave and NOT stay. A HUGE factor is them trying to build up isk and having their mission loot or mining ore stolen.
I am new so I feel qualified to speak on this. Making money as a noob is incredibly easy, so much that I have more money than I can possibly spend. My low skillpoints simply do not allow me to fly anything expensive and this will be true for another couple months.
This point of yours is not valid at all, and it might be because you are not being helpful to the noobs that you help. You should direct them to level social and connections to 3, then complete the sisters of eve missions and storyline missions that come with it. Doing this will let a noob run level 3 missions with almost any agent in the game and the isk will flow quite well from there.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 15:50:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 15:52:35
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Snake Scofield Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is.
Nope.
You're missing the important part of that quote:
"Hi, I'm new to this game. à I dont see what's so hard to understand."
Do you understand why this model is so handy now? Because it explains the mechanics in full in such a way that even new players can pick it up instantly. If you want to tack on "yes, yes, the mechanics are screwed up and things aren't all that clear, but that's the gist of it" at the end, then feel free to, but the fact remains: the entire thing can be explained in that very short sentence:
The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is.
Quote: I'm not sure what's so hard to understand either really.
It's not hard to understand. It is just completely irrelevant because it doesn't actually provide any solution to the problem of people being confused by the mechanics ù the model does. Why you are so opposed to a simple model to educate people is quite beyond meà
Quote: People assume it belongs to them because of how it works. My point is that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they want it to be.
And once you slap them in the face with the model, they have a much easier time not assuming that any more. Would it be nice if the mechanics changed so they fully matched the intent, and thus gave salvagers a nice buff? Yes, of course. Until then, the best we can do is educate players and rid them of that assumption, and the model does exactly that. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:02:00 -
[134]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 16:07:11
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 15:52:35
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Snake Scofield Wrecks aren't yours, the can inside the wreck is.
Nope.
You're missing the important part of that quote:
"Hi, I'm new to this game. à I dont see what's so hard to understand."
Do you understand why this model is so handy now? Because it explains the mechanics in full in such a way that even new players can pick it up instantly. If you want to tack on "yes, yes, the mechanics are screwed up and things aren't all that clear, but that's the gist of it" at the end, then feel free to, but the fact remains: the entire thing can be explained in that very short sentence:
The wreck isn't yours, the can inside is.
Quote: I'm not sure what's so hard to understand either really.
It's not hard to understand. It is just completely irrelevant because it doesn't actually provide any solution to the problem of people being confused by the mechanics ù the model does. Why you are so opposed to a simple model to educate people is quite beyond meà
Quote: People assume it belongs to them because of how it works. My point is that the game mechanic doesn't reflect what they want it to be.
And once you slap them in the face with the model, they have a much easier time not assuming that any more. Would it be nice if the mechanics changed so they fully matched the intent, and thus gave salvagers a nice buff? Yes, of course. Until then, the best we can do is educate players and rid them of that assumption, and the model does exactly that.
The players may be new but they are not stupid. Most of the complaints about this comes from newer players thinking they are being robbed for "their" stuff. If your "model" was working right they wouldn't even think it belonged to them in the first place.
So no...it doesn't do what it's intended to do.
Edit: And the game should slap them with the model...not you. Hence my point..it's bad game design.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:27:00 -
[135]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 16:28:14
Originally by: HeIIfire11 The players may be new but they are not stupid. Most of the complaints about this comes from newer players thinking they are being robbed for "their" stuff. If your "model" was working right they wouldn't even think it belonged to them in the first place.
You're still confused about what the model does.
No, if every last mechanic worked completely in line with the model, then they wouldn't be confused. As it is now, however, only the totality of mechanics work that way, and that is the purpose of that model: it tells the player "this is how the game actually works and what you should expect from the game, regardless of individual mechanics".
Quote: So no...it doesn't do what it's intended to do.
It does ù you just keep misunderstanding the intention. It's an educational tool, not a design manual. Again, think of how incorrectly the Bohr model is, but how well it explains the helium atom's spectra. It teaches new players like Snake Scofield what to expect, rather than trying to deduce the whole thing from contradictory mechanics (which they most likely will fail to do anyway).
Quote: And the game should slap them with the model...not you. Hence my point..it's bad game design.
àand like I said, until the game does work like that ù at which point no slapping would be needed ù the education is needed, and so far I haven't seen any better model to do that.
Again: not even you, who dislike it so much, has been able to demonstrate a game behaviour that contradicts that mode. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:49:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Tippia ]You're still confused about what the model does.
And you are still saying that it is intended to be exactly as it is when it is infact poorly coded. It was thrown together with minimal effort to change as little as possible on the wreck mechanic..thus causing confusion. This...is all I am saying, nothing more.
It is in no way an "educational tool"..you give it way too much credit.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:56:00 -
[137]
Originally by: HeIIfire11 And you are still saying that it is intended to be exactly as it is
No, I'm not. Quite the opposite: if it were, the model wouldn't be needed. The model is there to explain, or give a short-hand for a total effect of seemingly contradictory individual mechanics.
I would dearly like to see the salvaging profession buffed through a nuber of mechanics fixes to match CCP's stated intentions.
Quote: It is in no way an "educational tool"..you give it way too much credit.
àand yet, it lets people understand what's going on. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:01:00 -
[138]
Edited by: HeIIfire11 on 18/06/2011 17:05:26
Originally by: Tippia Again: not even you, who dislike it so much, has been able to demonstrate a game behaviour that contradicts that mode.
And with this you are dead wrong..everything I mentioned contradicts the fact that ccp wants it to be free for all. Everything but the fact that others can salvage it without getting concorded. If no one ever talked about this game anywhere and you were just thrown in and let loose to play, there is no way you would be able to tell that those mission wrecks don't belong to you..the wrecks and everything that comes with them.
You would see that only you can tractor beam them. You would see that your corp name is on them. You would see that only you can shoot them without getting concorded. You would see that they are a part of your mission and that you killed it and did the work. And you would see that because they can't be scanned down that you are the only one meant to get at them.
All the game shows you is that this is infact..your wreck. This is my point when I say it is bad game design.
Originally by: Tippia until the game does work like that ù at which point no slapping would be needed ù the education is needed
And with this you are even agreeing with me that it is infact lacking clarity.
Edit: And you would see that you are the only one that can abandon them..and you cant abandon anything that isn't yours. There would be no need to if it were free for all. Forgot that one.
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:07:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Tippia and yet, it lets people understand what's going on.
No..you do when they come crying on the forum.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:24:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 17:25:52
Originally by: HeIIfire11 And with this you are dead wrong..everything I mentioned contradicts the fact that ccp wants it to be free for all.
And how does any of that contradict the model?
Quote: You would see that only you can tractor beam them.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", so you can't move it.
Quote: You would see that your corp name is on them.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", and where else to put the ownership info?
Quote: You would see that only you can shoot them without getting concorded.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", and you can't shoot the wreck without shooting the can.
Quote: You would see that they are a part of your mission and that you killed it and did the work. And you would see that because they can't be scanned down that you are the only one meant to get at them.
àand yet, it's obviously possible to do, and the ninja is doing just as much work as the mission runner to get the salvage. But fair enough, the model doesn't touch the environment, just the distinction between loot and salvage.
Quote: And with this you are even agreeing with me that it is infact lacking clarity.
If you had bothered to read anything I eve wrote, rather than rage about a model you never took the time to understand, you would have known this ages ago.
Quote: And you would see that you are the only one that can abandon them..and you cant abandon anything that isn't yours.
àwhich the model explains by saying that "the can inside [the wreck] is [mine]", and that this is what I abandon.
Quote: No..you do when they come crying on the forum.
Yes, that is the purpose of the model: to explain these things to people who ask.
Quote: The ones that don't cry on the forum accept that they have been "ninja salvaged" which is pretty much the same as being stolen from. And you can't steel what should be free for all.
àand yet, the wreck is obviously free for all to salvage, since nothing bad comes from it. Their perception that they've been stolen from comes from not having heard that "the wreck isn't yours, the can inside is".
Quote: Like I said..the only thing supporting what you say is the fact that they can (without getting concorded) salvage the wrecks
In other words, it explains the sum total of the mechanics ù the game as a whole ù rather than the individual parts. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:40:00 -
[141]
Edited by: Tippia on 18/06/2011 17:41:02
Originally by: HeIIfire11 So it all comes down to your "can".
Seeing as how the virtual existence of such a can actually manages to explain all the oddities going on with wrecks, yes.
Quote: But lets say you are a new player and were not around before wrecks were introduced, you would know nothing of this can since the only time it is shown is to carry the loot which very well cant just go off and float around on it's own.
You would learn about it the first time you saw a wreck salvaged, either by yourself or by someone else. Also, I seem to recall that there are some odd drone ships that only leave behind cans (with worthless drone partsà not even alloys), rather than wrecks, but those might only show up in L4s, which are a bit beyond the new player's reach.
Quote: The model..for a new player is not as clear as you see it. The model does not really explain itself. If it did we wouldn't be having this discussion.
That's just because you've gone through far too much effort digging around for specific dev quotes to pick apartà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:47:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Tippia but those might only show up in L4s, which are a bit beyond the new player's reach.
So you would think yes..then explain to me why people have 2 week old players in their lvl4 missions salvaging their wrecks. Which brings me back to another argument that a player that new has not earned the right to salvage a lvl 4 mission which in some missions can bring you up to 15 million isk. But that's another argument for itself.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.18 18:26:00 -
[143]
Originally by: HeIIfire11
Originally by: Tippia but those might only show up in L4s, which are a bit beyond the new player's reach.
So you would think yes..then explain to me why people have 2 week old players in their lvl4 missions salvaging their wrecks.
àin which case the first situation ù "you would learn about it the first time you saw a wreck salvaged, either by yourself or by someone else" ù kicks in and the new player learn about it.
Quote: Which brings me back to another argument that a player that new has not earned the right to salvage a lvl 4 mission
Sure he has. He has learned the skills to fly a good probing/salvaging ship. He has learned the skills to probe. He has learned the skills to salvage. That is all you need to earn the right to take part in the competition over salvage. It might be a bit less than what's needed to rake in the same amount through mission rewards, bounties, LP and loot, but that's the reward you get for going for an inherently competitive PvP profession, rather than one with guaranteed, non-competitive rewards. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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