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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Zymurgist
Gallente C C P
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:17:00 -
[1]
CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog. Read all about the new business license and monetizing 3rd party apps here.
Zymurgist Community Representative CCP NA, EVE Online Contact Us |
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Shania L'monde
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:26:00 -
[2]
Quote: Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license?
No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.
External facing as in not behind a password? I.e. the front page of virtually every corp website that exists?
If your website is restricted to private corp use by a password, there is still the public facing part (where you enter your password), can that now no longer mention EvE without a non-commercial license?
Shania.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:27:00 -
[3]
Will the non-commercial license be compatible with known OSI licenses, like GPL for instance?
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Peter Powers
FinFleet Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:29:00 -
[4]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
seriously? thats bull****. it will kill alot of the current sites doing that, like lotteries, poker, hosting, etc.
i mean its all fair and good for people who take realmoney, but for services provided for isk? thats just stupid. Deblob! the Website with Statistics about the BFF vs. DRF+Friends. Conflict!
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:33:00 -
[5]
A few questions about the fee:
1) Why is it an annual fee? A one time fee seems a lot fairer, since CCP doesn't have annual costs associated with verifying my identity. 2) The annual fee might be troublesome for apps that are "abandoned" by their developers. If a dev stops paying the fee, will CCP sue to take down the application? 3) If someone sells an app, lets say a killboard, is the buyer of the app allowed to take donations, or would they require a separate developer license? 4) Will the API now require developer licenses to be passed in as arguments? Will there be limits on API use per application?
Overall, I still appreciate CCP allowing this sort of stuff to happen. EVE without EVEMon or EFT would be a much poorer game. Two step for CSM6 - http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/ |
Mal Plox
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:35:00 -
[6]
Capsuleer, please come back! ---
got an issue? here's a tissue!
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Tobin Shalim
Eclipse Industrials Quantum Forge
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:36:00 -
[7]
And how, exactly, is this "great news" for 3rd party devs? All it's going to do is force them to cough up even more money to CCP for something that, realistically, they don't NEED to pay for to begin with since they are currently free. This means that programs like EveMON, EveHQ, EveTycoon, etc will now be forced to charge its user base a monthly fee if they wish to use the program since the costs will trickle down to the end users of the programs themselves.
Bad CCP, with this and now MT that you swore you would never do, when did you become so money-hungry that you feel the need to nickel-and-dime your customers? Did some other company/investors buy you out or something? Because I cannot really explain what would have happened internally that would cause you to come to this point. -----
Originally by: Gierling Tech III is going to be "Fully modular" until someone crams the "EW Bonus" modules together with the "8 Midslots" modules...
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:39:00 -
[8]
LOL! (o)
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:43:00 -
[9]
Edited by: adriaans on 15/06/2011 16:45:10
Originally by: Peter Powers
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
seriously? thats bull****. it will kill alot of the current sites doing that, like lotteries, poker, hosting, etc.
i mean its all fair and good for people who take realmoney, but for services provided for isk? thats just stupid.
This.
Don't like it at all.
Wait... So any vid makers that accept isk donations now have to buy a bloody license? Not to mention every other activity that involves isk...
--signature-- My latest pvp video: Link |
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:43:00 -
[10]
Sorry but why is CCP trying to milk sites about EVE for money?... sites that advertise and already bring users in to EVE?
This is a bad move on CCPs part.
Got an alliance site with killboard and they support it by donations to break even? Then yes, you'll have to pay for commercial license.
EVE PIRATE BattleDB.com |
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Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:51:00 -
[11]
I have a PI spreadsheet I have made available publicly. It's free to use, but my char name is attached to the document. If I receive a friendly in-game donation, do I require a $99 license? -----
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Sarina Rhoda
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:51:00 -
[12]
My understanding might be completely wrong but from what im reading you only need the license and only have to pay ccp if you plan on charging people for the 3rd party service.
Ie sites that run on donations or offer their services for free do not need a license and do not have to pay the $99 fee...
At least i think this is what all this means :S (please please please correct me if i am wrong)
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:51:00 -
[13]
Glad to finally see this getting more formal attention. I heard about it watching the FanFest feed and thought it was a great idea. Still do. ~Gnosis~ |
Samuel Reaper
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:51:00 -
[14]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
How can a commercial license be required for people who are trading something that explicitly has no commercial value? Or is this an admission that isk does have real world value?
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Imuran
Zentor Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:51:00 -
[15]
So basically all kill boards are going to require a miniumum of a non commercial licence, all supported by donnations/advertising are going to require a commercial licence as basically they all access the API
Chribbas Eve-board access the API and accepts donations - so thats commercial let alone apps that accept donations
Not good
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:53:00 -
[16]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I have to agree that this rule seems a bit onerous and should be reconsidered. Only those charging RL money should be charged RL money. ~Gnosis~ |
Ix Forres
Caldari Righteous Chaps
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:53:00 -
[17]
Some good stuff, some bad stuff. But mostly, too little too late. Most third party developers have left already or stopped working on their tools long ago. -- Ix Forres - Used to be a third party developer, now a full-time bittervet |
Entity
X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: CCP Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
late April Fools?
Even for sites accepting real cash donations, they rarely break even with running costs. Do you even realise how much running something like EVE-Files costs? And now you want to milk these people that provide game-enriching services out of their own pocket for more cash? Poor show, CCP. Poor show.
_
Got Item? | EVE API? | Cache? |
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 16:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim And how, exactly, is this "great news" for 3rd party devs? All it's going to do is force them to cough up even more money to CCP for something that, realistically, they don't NEED to pay for to begin with since they are currently free. This means that programs like EveMON, EveHQ, EveTycoon, etc will now be forced to charge its user base a monthly fee if they wish to use the program since the costs will trickle down to the end users of the programs themselves.
Bad CCP, with this and now MT that you swore you would never do, when did you become so money-hungry that you feel the need to nickel-and-dime your customers? Did some other company/investors buy you out or something? Because I cannot really explain what would have happened internally that would cause you to come to this point.
That's nice, but I want this badly. I spend a lot of money developing web based services and being able to subsidize those costs through micro-subscriptions would seriously ease my (wallet) pain.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:00:00 -
[20]
Originally by: FROM THE BLOG TEXT An example of unacceptable monetization would be accepting Google AdWords from sites violating our EULA and ToS. (this is essentially similar to our terms for fansites)
If you are to believe people that do use Google ads, it's not like you really get a choice to allow such sites in, but more like actively prune all of those that are not suitable... What exactly is your position on that, what is the mandatory "response time" for a person to deny a particular ad from being shown ? If you have a zero-tolerance policy you might just as well say "you can't use any adds" because that's essentially what it would eventually come down to. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Mike deVoid
Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:00:00 -
[21]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
If payment is OPTIONAL for the service, is a $99 license still required? -----
Quote: The maximum acceptable limit of MT in EVE is vanity items + the ability to buy things already created legitimately by another player. PLEX can be already be used to attain SP, ships an |
Ix Forres
Caldari Righteous Chaps
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:00:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Hexxx That's nice, but I want this badly. I spend a lot of money developing web based services and being able to subsidize those costs through micro-subscriptions would seriously ease my (wallet) pain.
A while ago I'd have agreed with you. But EVE players are perhaps one of the toughest markets to monetize. See: MT. Trying to monetize EVE 3rd party apps is going to be very hard work and with $99/year fees to CCP, I very much doubt any but the largest sites will even break even. EVE Metrics almost certainly would not have. -- Ix Forres - Used to be a third party developer, now a full-time bittervet |
ALLHAILCHODA
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:02:00 -
[23]
So your going to charge people money who have made your game a better experience for everyone? Tell your CFO to remove head from ass.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:03:00 -
[24]
So sites like Battleclinic or Eve-Files are going to have to cough up $99/year, over and above their actual operating costs, for no apparent reason? I mean, I could understand a real-money charge if they were allowed to collect fees/donations in real money. But expecting them to pay dollars for the right to get isk is utter bull****.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:03:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ix Forres
Originally by: Hexxx That's nice, but I want this badly. I spend a lot of money developing web based services and being able to subsidize those costs through micro-subscriptions would seriously ease my (wallet) pain.
A while ago I'd have agreed with you. But EVE players are perhaps one of the toughest markets to monetize. See: MT. Trying to monetize EVE 3rd party apps is going to be very hard work and with $99/year fees to CCP, I very much doubt any but the largest sites will even break even. EVE Metrics almost certainly would not have.
Using PayPal subscriptions and tiered premium access could have gone a long way towards paying for EVE Metrics. I don't think you realize how much people valued EVE Metrics.
Basic access and reports are free, more detailed analysis and trending is paid. $1 a month is not that much to ask for.
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NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:03:00 -
[26]
Edited by: NoobPwn on 15/06/2011 17:03:43
Quote:
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
So are you asking the 3rd-party service providers to pay $99 in order to earn some ISK?
Troll.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:07:00 -
[27]
The cash grabbing gets even more desperate
**** everything about this ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:08:00 -
[28]
I wouldn't exactly say that $99 dollar a year is inexpensive for a lot of services that are in essence non-commercial but try to reduce running costs by having adds or donations. If fans are forced to make a business out of it some may decide its not worth the bother.
A lot of the excellent services we have seen throughout the lifetime of Eve probably wouldn't have happened with terms like these.
Services that charge in-game ISK is an important meta-game aspect, expecting all of those to turn commercial also seems unfair. They would have to charge RL money to cover the CCP tax.
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Jim Luc
Caldari Rule of Five Split Infinity.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:11:00 -
[29]
I like this, and I think it's about time. My only problem is the current API is very limited still. Will it be getting advancements so we can make our apps worth purchasing?
For instance - there are hundreds of skill trackers already for free, why would someone make a new one and charge for it? If there were new additions to the API (I have lots of ideas of what I'd want) then people will be more likely to pay money for the new development.
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AtheistOfFail
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:11:00 -
[30]
What's up CCP? Dust514 not going well. This is going to turn into the time you tried to charge for EvE Voice. Recommend community to disable all 3rd Party sites for 24 hours in protest to these unwarranted changes.
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Sarina Rhoda
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:11:00 -
[31]
A lot of the 3rd party apps are what make this game actually playable and enjoyable :S evemon killboards eft evefiles If I had to start paying for these as well as my subscription fee I don't think I would bother personally :S
Its almost impossible to play the game without eft for example (unless you want to spend billions on random mods until you get your ship to fit properly). It annoys me because stuff like eft should be something ccp included into the game rather than relying on 3rd party developers!
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:12:00 -
[32]
I have to say when I heard this from Fanfest It got my attention enough to seek out contacts for more details all of which kind of didn't want to answer or didn't know.
Now reading this Blog I am left with the feeling of disappointment, and more to the point a little bit of anger.
In particular these Questions and their answers.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I don't know how many people actually read Market Discussion but a majority of the websites and services offered for the higher end financial EVE meta gaming that take place there. They will need to pay $99.
Current Applications and Services that this will affect is:-
BASC Exchange A Stock Exchange for in-game Corporations to sell Shares and pay dividends. While BSA Doesn't get paid for this service, it does take in in-game currency, to allow users to buy shares and sell shares for profit. This service when used allows everyone in EVE to use an external service to generate in-game currency profit.
EVE Insurance A currently in Beta Project to cover T2 Industrial Ships. Players login and create accounts, register their API which monitors kill logs, they can choose to insure some ships, and if/when they are killed, EVE Insurance issues a payment for the loss of a ship. This requires a premium like all insurance companies. If the ship is never killed, the Insurance company keeps the premium. This means they'll have to pay $99.
EVE Financial Services The parent company to EVE Insurance, it's not active yet, but under development to allow players of EVE to have full financial reports following the FIFO Account methodology. It'll produce reports which generate fully accurate account of all industrial/marketing activity. This would be a small service fee for this as the database requirements are sizable for this type of service. This means they'll have to pay $99, however after hearing about Monitored API services they did plan on paying any fee.
There are other Wallet tracking applications and services websites along with some Applications like Trade Finders, Market tracking, wallet keeping etc. Some are free, others are not, such as EMMA, EVE Trade Finder etc.
Quote: Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
These two questions and answers imply a lot. They make the whole thing seem... too hard to swallow.
Accepting Donates usually implies accepting Paypal to cover the real life financial costs of running the service. CCP is not providing free Hosting space or DNS Registration. These are fees outside of EVE and unrelated to CCP. The service itself may require CCP Servers and Connections and I don't particularly have a problem with that. What I do have a problem with is being denied to accept Paypal Donation to maintain the hardware and hosting fees of a totally unrelated to CCP company.
This second answer then says "You can't take Real money". So we can accept donations of ISK but we have no legal way to take those ISK donations and cover real live financial impact.
What happens if you have a website which is used by a big alliance and has wallet tracking information etc for their members, the site doesn't JUST cover EVE, but a Gaming community that also play other games. Those games don't deny $ for service, but EVE Does. Do these Gaming communities now need to separate their EVE stuff from the other games to allow them to pay for donations to support the entire site?
This whole thing seems like the legal department had too much say, and it needs to be adjusted.
Amarr for Life |
Oshanko
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:12:00 -
[33]
Since Eve Apps are associated with Eve and CCP, will CCP make any effort to ensure the app developers aren't being Evil??
I.e. should I as a customer feel as safe giving a licensee money as I would giving CCP money?
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:15:00 -
[34]
Seriously, you guys are really milking this cashcow for all it's worth aren't you...
So after selling out your sandbox game and catering to the mass whinage of wannabe "wow in space" players, changing all kinds of things to make eve a fluffier place, you then sell out and start with the micro-transactions, and before the rage has even started to simmer down you announce this...
Despite eve being profitable at 50k accounts... Multiplying that number by 6-7 isn't enough, you need to milk this **** from every angle.
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Blue'Cyno Goin'Up
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:16:00 -
[35]
What seems ******ed is that this may make CCP, what 10k a year if even that. Is it really worth 10k a year ccp to **** off your customers this much?
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SmallGang Bandit
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:18:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Peter Powers Edited by: Peter Powers on 15/06/2011 16:51:55
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
seriously? thats bull****. it will kill alot of the current sites doing that, like lotteries, poker, hosting, etc.
i mean its all fair and good for people who take realmoney, but for services provided for isk? thats just stupid.
1.5billion isk is equal to what, about 3-4 PLEX? and a PLEX is about 1 month of game time? So you were given the equivalent of four months of gametime for your services. That can translate into RL money, since you could choose to take the ISK you get for your service and and pay for gametime with it.
Let's take Somer Lotteries as another example (I love SOMER, FWIW). They make a profit on every ship that goes up for lottery. How much, I don't know. But if a site/service/app gets the equivalent of 6-8 PLEX (2.4 Billion ISK - 3.2 Billion ISK) in one year the license pays for itself. I'd guess sites like Somer won't have an issue with this, because the math works in their favor. I'm sorry your cool tools for donations didn't get great donations. So stop asking for donations and give them away because you love the game, or develop a better monetization scheme for your tools to increase your annual ISK income above the 3 Billion ISK mark.
And before someone goes there, I know you can't convert ISK to out of game currency legally ûáand maybe the folks doing this just don't need the additional ISK to pay with PLEX, so they would be forking out RL cash for the license. You can choose not to develop, or not to advertise/monetize at all, and your license is free. Your choice...
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Phoenix T'ril
Gallente Hashimoto Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:19:00 -
[37]
What are you doing? I don't think you guys have fully understood the ramifications and chilling effect this will have. Seriously. --
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy Spreadsheets Online
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:20:00 -
[38]
Gibe option to pay the $99 in PLEXs.
Also Im not a big fan of:
Quote: Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Ads are hardly something of concern and honestly is CCP going to be going around to every alliance website just to try to shut them down because they havent paid $99 to you? Are you really going to go around and try to seize domains or goto the hosting provider to get them shut down?
Are you really going to take that bad PR? ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:21:00 -
[39]
Originally by: SencneS I have to say when I heard this from Fanfest It got my attention enough to seek out contacts for more details all of which kind of didn't want to answer or didn't know.
Now reading this Blog I am left with the feeling of disappointment, and more to the point a little bit of anger.
I don't always agree with SencneS - but when I do it's CCP's fault.
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Logma Ran
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:22:00 -
[40]
There are two ways CCP can make these big steps on the way of killing an MMO like what happened to SWG for example.
Make it very simple in the belief that it will attract more people liking casual gaming.
Or introduce different ways of so called micro payments, either this way or giving players ability to buy items/equipments/etc directly thus having nothing else but the money in front of their eyes.
Luckily eve is not getting "simple".
But what I saw about trying to get more and more money is quite worrying.
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Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:22:00 -
[41]
finally
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Nardman
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:23:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Nardman on 15/06/2011 17:24:46
Originally by: Peter Powers Edited by: Peter Powers on 15/06/2011 16:51:55
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
seriously? thats bull****. it will kill alot of the current sites doing that, like lotteries, poker, hosting, etc.
i mean its all fair and good for people who take realmoney, but for services provided for isk? thats just stupid.
Agreed. That is moronic. Requiring a commercial license when all the is in play is FAKE/PRETEND/PIXEL money? Good god that is beyond ******ed.
edit:
Quote: Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
Seriously, c'mon guys, April Fool's day was months ago. This has to be a ****ing troll. No one could be this dumb. THIS IS DOMINION! |
NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:23:00 -
[43]
Is CCP going bankrupt or something? Charging for any 3rd-party fan services that are donation-supported or game currency supported is the ridiculus shyt of the year.
Whoever purposed that should get awarded.
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I'thari
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:25:00 -
[44]
The more I read recent devblogs the more I think that CCP higher-ups are in dire need of a brain
Originally by: devblog I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about in the discussion thread. :-)
Only ting i whole blog I agree with. Not that I expect any CCP responce on the matter, as usual.
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Eli Strange
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:26:00 -
[45]
Interesting. If I was a computer savvy person, I would be all over this, because I would be attempting to create some pretty neat third party software. Also, I am interested in how this will turn out. If the present world go astray, the cause is in you, in you it is to be sought. Dante Alighieri, The Divine Comedy |
Ix Forres
Caldari Righteous Chaps
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:27:00 -
[46]
As far as donations and things go, and to respond to Hexxx pointing out how much people valued EVE Metrics: I know a lot of people relied hugely on EM and used it extensively. We always asked for donations - from before 2009. From 2009, we made ú150 from donations. So our donations would not have covered (or just have covered) the commercial license fee. They wouldn't have gone any way towards covering operating costs. And that was on a very big website that was serving a large chunk of the EVE community both directly and in API usage.
For numbers, http://www.talkunafraid.co.uk/2010/10/eve-metrics-and-popularity/ has some stats. We're talking around ~29,000 unique visitors per 30 days. Most 'fansites' (API tools, corp sites, etc) do not get anywhere near as big as EM did- there's maybe 10 or so that are this large, like EVE-Kill and Battleclinic and EVE Files/EVE Search.
Even if the ISK trading side of this were removed, $99/year is still way over what most sites can afford. -- Ix Forres - Used to be a third party developer, now a full-time bittervet |
BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:28:00 -
[47]
Oh Boy ... Evevoice again ...
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Malrock
Caldari Mea Culpa Enigma
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim And how, exactly, is this "great news" for 3rd party devs? All it's going to do is force them to cough up even more money to CCP for something that, realistically, they don't NEED to pay for to begin with since they are currently free. This means that programs like EveMON, EveHQ, EveTycoon, etc will now be forced to charge its user base a monthly fee if they wish to use the program since the costs will trickle down to the end users of the programs themselves.
Bad CCP, with this and now MT that you swore you would never do, when did you become so money-hungry that you feel the need to nickel-and-dime your customers? Did some other company/investors buy you out or something? Because I cannot really explain what would have happened internally that would cause you to come to this point.
Seriously ? CCP is commercial entity, they exist soley to take your money, if you thought eve is some free ride and you will get things for free for ever - think again, sooner or later eve will become so bloated and company so big that they will charge for everithing, becides, i think it was the end goal anyway, bait in critical mass with lot of "free" speaches and then ramp it down with money. Becides, i seriously doubt eve can handle limitless expansion, sooner or later you going to run into hardware wall where no hardware in existance can support the model eve is built on and best way to control population is money.
on the other hand, there is lot of developers for eve and for now they have been doing things for free, monetizing it means there will be a new breed of people in eve - ones that do software and services purely to leech proffit of eve community, be wary though, not all things deserve your money and i am not even gonna touch security issues.
The only way to do it "securely" i think would be if eve would offer a service similar to app-store (apple/android/nokia/ms) - they would be the ones charging the money and transfering it to developer, the rest of solutions are up for trust, and you should ask yourself a question - do you trust some random unknown developer with your credit card ?
Give us a visit. |
Phoenus
Caldari Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:31:00 -
[49]
CCP in 'dumb as ****' nonshocker.
What, with the MT debate on the General Discussion forums, and now this.
Are you trying to kill your own game?
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Wibla
Minmatar Alcatraz Inc. Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:33:00 -
[50]
Two words:
Money. Grab.
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NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Malrock
The only way to do it "securely" i think would be if eve would offer a service similar to app-store (apple/android/nokia/ms) - they would be the ones charging the money and transfering it to developer, the rest of solutions are up for trust, and you should ask yourself a question - do you trust some random unknown developer with your credit card ?
The point is now you don't pay RL money for a killboard and you soon will. There is nothing to do with "secure", or do you seriously think this will end those lottery scams?
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SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:37:00 -
[52]
One thing I find very odd is CCP are charging the Developers $99 to DEVELOP the Website/Application etc. But a BULK of CCP's traffic would come from the Users, NOT the developer.
Even on a huge App like EVEMon with multiple developers all using API over and over is a very small blip on the radar compared to the users of EVEMon.
You want to make API Secure? Heres an idea.. Charge the users $1 a year for API access. If you don't pay, you can't use ANY application because you don't have API access.
The Developers would happily pay $1 per account per year to develop their application.
What's the side effect.. Oh yeah, Instead of CCP getting what at most 100 Websites/Applications all paying $100 = $10,000 yearly. They get 200,000 accounts paying $1 a year for API access.. That's $200,000 for CCP..
I would pay $1 per account per year for API what about anyone else?
Don't milk the people making the applications/running the websites.. You could easily get more money from the users and charge them... Hell $0.50 cents per account per year..
Amarr for Life |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:37:00 -
[53]
A few questions: - What effect do you think this will have on currently free Eve related software (Evemon, killboards, JEveAssets, etc) - Suppose I have a corp killboard. Does this mean that I will have to pay $100 for the corp kb software, and then pay another $100 to CCP to license the use of it ... wait what someone explain wtf is going on. - Does this mean that all access to the API is going to be metered through an application license of some kind? -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:38:00 -
[54]
I have a donate button on my site as my servers cost my alliance over 300+ dollars a month to run.
So now I have to add an additional $99 a year to this cost?
bah.
You suck.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:38:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 15/06/2011 17:39:43 Did you get bought by EA by chance?
Please CCP explain me this:
1) I PAY a DNS server 2) I PAY a commercial web hosting 3) I created 1 free forever and for everyone application called NEISIN. 4) I am maintaining a former abandoned application that CCP API changes broke: EvE Income Analyzer - free for everyone and open source. 5) I host the Fanfest 2011 CCP CEO showcased PLEX for <xxx> charity *with zero gain, zero euros, ZERO ISK* and I have to spend 2 working days a month to upkeep it and its balance sheets. 6) I host the Public Audit Records (a monumental task, takes days a month), an archive of EvE investments and audits. For free, for all. Because CCP forums suck so I had to reinvent the wheel.
Now, since the website has Google ads and a Donate Paypal button for my oh-so-huge traffic of 500 visitors a month, I am meant to pay? When someone will bother clicking something I might make 20 euros a year.
ARE YOU JOKING WITH THIS?
Ask me $99 and I send you an $500 month invoice for all the work I am tirelessy doing since half a year to make YOUR game experience better for the whole EvE community.
I am sorry but I and probably Chribba are profusing work already and in change of nothing.
This is not acceptable, I will just shutdown everything and let the affected players give their feedback to you.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Filet de boeuf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:39:00 -
[56]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. Will website ads require a commercial license? Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license. Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
:facepalm:
Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
So, what's exactly the point of this license thing ?
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xXxSatsujinxXx
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:39:00 -
[57]
Will you be charging Chribba?
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Azazel Mordred
Minmatar Cloak of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:39:00 -
[58]
What the hell. No thank you.
As the developer of a freely available open source web application, there is no way I am going to pay you $99 on the off chance that someone may feel like donating some non-real in-game money to me one day.
Since my code is hosted by my users in most cases, and many do some hacking on it of their own, what implications does that have for them? Do they also need to be licensed in order to use and modify my software? Do I need to spread my license around to enable people to use my software? What if someone decides to put ads on their version of the application, am I responsible for that?
This is so full of holes and so poorly thought out it's unreal.
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Montolio
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:40:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Montolio on 15/06/2011 17:40:48 I fear these changes will have a damaging impact on EVE services out of game. It won't spur more development as currently written, it'll just put more financial strain on players and developers.
These restrictions need to be loosened up more before being enacted. Especially the parts focusing on donations & services for in game ISK.
If I have a killboard that has a link to shattered crystal and the server the killboard is on is donation supported, do I need to pay $99 now?
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Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:40:00 -
[60]
"Great news," right.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Welp, there goes my summer project that was meant to be a neat tool for the EVE community while making me some ISK for Rifters. If I wanted to pay RL money to get ISK, I'd just get PLEX.
So, is the Eve API just not going to be open anymore? Disappointing.
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handige harrie
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:41:00 -
[61]
Edited by: handige harrie on 15/06/2011 17:43:52 So developers wanting ISK for a service or app have to RMT the isk they made by providing the app/service to be able to pay CCP?
o.0 you stupid?
Than they say $99,- was the smallest amount they could take for auth purposes. Isn't that $0.00 via bank transfer for auth purposes, like paypal does the smallest amount they could take?
like I said in the item shop thread, I think some investors want to see some of their money, and since CCP sold themselves out, they come up with stupid ideas to do it.
There isn't a single good reason in the entire devblog why this would be advantageous for developers of 3rd party things instead of the way things are now, the only one getting better is CCP's wallet.
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Malrock
Caldari Mea Culpa Enigma
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:41:00 -
[62]
Originally by: NoobPwn
Originally by: Malrock
The only way to do it "securely" i think would be if eve would offer a service similar to app-store (apple/android/nokia/ms) - they would be the ones charging the money and transfering it to developer, the rest of solutions are up for trust, and you should ask yourself a question - do you trust some random unknown developer with your credit card ?
The point is now you don't pay RL money for a killboard and you soon will. There is nothing to do with "secure", or do you seriously think this will end those lottery scams?
this has nothing to do with lottery scams, think of it this way; if company like Sony cannot protect user base data how secure your credit card data will be on small developer site who will charge you say 1$ for 1 month of killboard service ? My security issue is risen toward 3rd party charging you for the service, so they will need to make some kind of payment gateway and keep payment information. This brings us to 3 possible issues; 1. Site security in protecting your payment data, namely credit cards and personal information that can be stolen and used for identity theft and abuse. 2. Scam sites that will abuse users posing as uber "tools" - this will be now much more easier cause there is no mentioning of ccp overwatch at current state. 3. low quality services.
Give us a visit. |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:43:00 -
[63]
So, when will CCP start paying us for putting links to EVE Online on our sites?
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Cylide Askald
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:43:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
Also Im not a big fan of:
Quote: Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Ads are hardly something of concern and honestly is CCP going to be going around to every alliance website just to try to shut them down because they havent paid $99 to you? Are you really going to go around and try to seize domains or goto the hosting provider to get them shut down?
Paying 10$ per month for an adfree webserver is still more expensive than 99$ per year, yet a proper server should still be the better option.
Not likeing the changes nontheless.
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Htrag
The Carebear Stare Hydroponic Zone
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:43:00 -
[65]
It's a step in the right direction, but has some critical flaws.
API use for mashup websites are generally provided for free. Sometimes limitations are placed on the 3rd party website based on API usage metrics, which is where a small fee might be appropriate.
Otherwise this will likely end up squeezing the little guy doing something out of passion for the game... for what $99?
If the goal really is to verify identity, one can bypass this using cc 'giftcards', though I'm not sure why they would want to.
I'd also like to see the actual license involved in regards to transferability, definition of what an application is and any limitations.
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Elsa Nietchize
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:43:00 -
[66]
I like how the only people not affected by this are the RMT sites because they just don't care and CCP can't do anything about them.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:44:00 -
[67]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
So setting up a corp to put up a highsec POS for ISK requires a commercial license, check.
And supporting your site with ads while not charging users anything requires a commercial license, check.
Finally being open to donations for your website that charges users nothing will require a commercial license.
What if you have no website and do provide a 'service' in game like hauling freight, or do research, does your character need a commercial license or is this only applied to distributed applications and websites that run a service?
Does every site(if you have several) have to get a commercial license? IE someone like Chribba with many sites that may or may not be on the same server.
What are your thoughts on people who try something or put together an app/site to do things that may not bother anymore because they'll need a license. If they have any concept of getting any kind of thanks for their work ie isk/donation they now need to anticipate the 'value' of their work to exceed the actual cost in effort as well as your yearly $99 fee.
These players are now stuck with the choice of either giving it away 'free' with no thought to ever getting anything for it or calculation the 'business success' of it to clear costs and the $99 yearly fee.
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Abecbu
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:44:00 -
[68]
This is the worst community ever.
This is good news. It means Capsuleer can be a $0.99 app on the marketplace and make back the CCP and Apple fee instead of just paying the Apple fee out of pocket.
Websites can have ads or have premium subscriptions to cover operating expenses instead of just paying those out of pocket.
$99 isn't that much for the opportunity to use someone else's IP for your own gain.
The only thing that might be pushing it is making websites who run on in game currency or donations ONLY with no ads pay the commercial fee.
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Shedling
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:44:00 -
[69]
Lulzsec perhaps?
Oh wait, they only do DDoS :D
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NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:45:00 -
[70]
Oh, that EULA was a scam, and we all clicked "accept", now what do you expect?
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Filet de boeuf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:45:00 -
[71]
Quote: Inexpensive - $99 per year, no other fees
Pretty funny when you're talking about people working on their free time, to make CCP's game better.
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Arcadia Seith
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:45:00 -
[72]
Requiring people to pay you a licence for sites that they are supporting today through google ads and occasional voluntary donations is not a good idea. It will alienate a number of people that are providing valuable services to the community now and are lucky if they come close to covering their costs. The community will be the poorer for their loss.
I suggest you define 'commercial' more closely as, say, charging a subscription or a compulsory fee for access. And provide an enhanced API in exchange for the licence. There are a large number of good suggestions for enhancements on the forums.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:46:00 -
[73]
This is exploitable like crazy.
You just MADE THE DAY FOR RMTERS.
"HI, I made this 10 lines API app, now pay me $100 per copy, I pay CCP a $99 license a year so I am LEGAL".
And on Sykpe: "Ok, here's your RMTed money dude #457, this CCP idea was BRILLIANT!"
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
DK Metz
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:47:00 -
[74]
i dont like the idea.. we have a great comunity because many put houres in to make free stuff for the masses. why ruin that ? ________________________________ Radio for YOU
Elder eve player. My mom met a jove!
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Korvin
Gallente Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:47:00 -
[75]
Stop smoking weeds CCP.
_____________ 4th term 5th term
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Resivan
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:47:00 -
[76]
$99/year sounds fine for app makers who want to sell their stuff, you've got to cover admin costs somehow. But you're definition of commercial is way too expansive. At the very least accepting donations in isk and web front-ends for services performed entirely in-game need to be considered non-commercial.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:47:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Cyaxares II on 15/06/2011 17:48:21
Originally by: handige harrie So developers wanting ISK for a service or app have to RMT the isk they made by providing the app/service to be able to pay CCP?
a thousand times this
think about services like SOMER Blink, EOH, Rothbard's Casino, ... - they just earn ISK, they can hardly charge their customers RL money, they rely heavily on the EVE API and they do probably more to keep people occupied with EVE when they are OOG than EVE Gate, the forums and CCP's twitter/facebook/... pages combined.
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Mr M
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:47:00 -
[78]
Dear CCP
I usually don't say this, but today you suck.
Write for the Eve Tribune |
i hatechosingnames
Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:47:00 -
[79]
CCP, please concentrate on making a better game instead of more ways to milk money out of subscribers / people helping the game!
PS FIX THE LAG - STOP WITH THE BARBIES IN SPACE ****!
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NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:48:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Abecbu This is the worst community ever.
This is good news. It means Capsuleer can be a $0.99 app on the marketplace and make back the CCP and Apple fee instead of just paying the Apple fee out of pocket.
Websites can have ads or have premium subscriptions to cover operating expenses instead of just paying those out of pocket.
$99 isn't that much for the opportunity to use someone else's IP for your own gain.
The only thing that might be pushing it is making websites who run on in game currency or donations ONLY with no ads pay the commercial fee.
Your last line is self-explanatory, eve-kill has ads just fyi.
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Kishin Hattori
Minmatar The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:50:00 -
[81]
Honestly can't tell if this is just a huge joke or if CCP want to kill off EvE...
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I Enjoy Intercourse
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:50:00 -
[82]
you are essentially encouraging RMTing by forcing a RL currency only fee which has to be paid for charging ISK only, too.
at least let the dev decide if they want to pay the 100bucks/yr or rather 2-3b/yr. yes, this wouldn't cover any "expenses" this program may cause, but it introduces yet another (small) isk sink.
and first of all, it doesn't encourage RMTing.
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BetsyAnn Tractorfarmer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:51:00 -
[83]
CCP at their finest again. Pulling ideas out of their asses like the money grabbing bastards that they've become. I'm so glad that my account is expring. While the ship for cash thing didn't annoy me TOO much, THIS is WAY over the top. Are you ****ing real? Are you asking people who use their free time to HELP other people ingame for ANY kind of donation PAY YOU 99$ bucks? You're smoking something that is seriously affecting your brain.
Good luck CCP. You're on a path that will drive quite a few people away. Have fun!
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:51:00 -
[84]
If anything, CCP should be paying the 3rd party developers for making tools that fill holes in the usability of EVE.
3rd party dev apps/websites should be unrestricted if they don't use EVE assets. And definitely be able to survive on donations in any other circumstances. No MMO (or non-MMO, e.g. Valve) company I know charges a licensing fee for 3rd party non-commercial devs, not even BLIZZARD does this.
The only things this will do is cause current developers to drop their projects, and discourage new developers from even thinking of making programs unless they don't have any costs associated with making them.
Who's idea was this?
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:51:00 -
[85]
I have an eve affiliate ad on my website. Will this require a commercial license?
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Jefferson H Clay
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:51:00 -
[86]
Does anybody else hear that noise? It sounds kind of like a cash register...
How does NO, grab you? Do you like NO? Because I'm going to be going with NO.
Welcome CCP to screen scraping hell, hope your website's frontend can cope with it.
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Pesadel0
the muppets RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:52:00 -
[87]
Stupidity at its best , when companies like beth,blizzard,valve etc, give us the tools to mod their games and evolve it making it better, CCP comes with this brilliant idea revolutionary even
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Cylide Askald
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:53:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Cylide Askald on 15/06/2011 17:54:46
Originally by: Xailia
Who's idea was this?
I guess Apple's.
And while we're at OS bashing: Android market requires a one time fee of 25$ if I remember it right to register a developer.
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Cassandra GIRF
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:53:00 -
[89]
Apologies if this has already been covered but how do you set up a google ad based site that filters out ads that contravene the CPP rules?
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Hyperforce99
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:56:00 -
[90]
Has CCP been purchased by Activision by any chance, the CCP I know would never ask money from fan-sites! --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/ |
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:58:00 -
[91]
Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 17:59:39
A couple questions: How does this work with open-source applications?
Hypothetical: I'm a poor developer looking to release some useful tool for eve. I can't afford proper hosting and so I use a host that displays ads. How does this work out?
Do you guys at CCP have any idea how reliant your game is on 3rd party applications and tools? Evemon, Fitting tools, map tools, killboards, asset trackers, etc. Virtually all of it created and maintained in some developers spare time. Much of which is all but required to play eve. We're lucky these programs exist, and now you're going to try charging them $100 a year for the privilege of helping to make eve playable?
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:59:00 -
[92]
<space_vampires>
I blame White Wolf. They probably placed some onus on CCP to monetize the 3rd party app steam for WoD in order to create a legal framework to make it easier for White Wolf to control and protect White Wolf's IP.
And we get to test the system out in "Eve: The WoD Beta."
</space_vampires>
----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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woddel
Gallente Canis Industries Ltd Avaricious Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.15 17:59:00 -
[93]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
hello CCP
i sure understand you trying to monetize from all possible aspects of eve. but taking it from the hard working developer community is harsh. they do most work for free or for drops of isk to serve to community - now they need to pay for not getting paid?
on my side, i run eve commander, a rather large site with more than 8'000 registered users. it takes a dedicated server costing more than 1500 euros, it cost hundreds of euros for software and licenses and running cost in the data center. off that, i earn a few billion isk a year in non monetary in-game currency that gets me a pixelship like a nyx or so.
i certainly will NOT pay for providing a service to the community that is highly in deficit concerning real life assets and earning me breadcrumbs of a virtual currency.
if this ruling comes into action, i can promise you this:
IT WILL BE THE END OF EVE COMMANDER - i would shut down the platform.
even if it hurts me to tears, you must understand that my love for the game and the community is large, but not endless.
woddel --- creator and maintainer of eve commander - complete web based character information tool and ec agent finder |
Akira Zendragon
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:00:00 -
[94]
SRSLY!?
It's cool that it provides a solution for Capsuleer et al. to sell the apps on the App Store, or for developers of other applications to sell them if they want to get paid for the time they invested in making the app.
But $99/yr to be able to accept ISK donations/subscriptions/payments is utterly ridiculous. Especially for accepting ISK donations while providing useful services to the community. Let's face it... there are players out there that have given a lot of their time to the community, and CCP owes them big time for their contributions.
Methinks someone at CCP has been sniffing geothermal plumes too often...
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Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:00:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Abecbu This is good news. It means Capsuleer can be a $0.99 app on the marketplace and make back the CCP and Apple fee instead of just paying the Apple fee out of pocket.
So its ok to screw over literally every single Eve related open source project currently being worked on because of one iPhone app?
Seriously, the lack of thought that has gone into this is astounding. EveMon is open source, do they require one license per developer, one per website? What about open source killboards? Do you need one license per customer that deploys your code? What about ones who don't use adverts? Does every single corporation website that uses the api now have to remove all references to eve online from every public facing page? What about eve wiki or the goonfleet wiki? Those use CCP and Eve branding, do they have to put all their information behind a paywall now?
How about if I don't charge for my app but someone sends me an unsolicited donation (in isk or real money)? Does a bill for $99 appear on my doorstep unless I send it back? And the idea that a $99 fee is trivial is completely laughable. When I was developing for Goonfleet back in 2005 as a student I sure as **** didn't have that kind of money to spare. Hell, chances are it'll be ú99 by the time CCP applies their rather skewed exchange rate to it.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:01:00 -
[96]
The really bad thing is that you need to pay $99 even if you do not earn a single cent! It is enough that someone gives you in-game money and you have to pay $99 per year?
Huuuu??!
That must be some sort of joke, right? |
handige harrie
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:02:00 -
[97]
I also embed youtube EVE pvp videos, with a image of the EVE logo and a clicky link on my facebook page to a wordpress blog. Who has to pay the license now? me, facebook, wordpress(google) or youtube? One of those 4 entity's isn't making money of EVE, the rest has to pay a commercial license?
This license thing is so not worked out properly, it hurts my brain :-x
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Jimmae
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:03:00 -
[98]
Really bad idea for all the reasons mentioned already.
I only have one more thing to add: Fire the person who came up with it. He is hurting your company and your business model.
Regards, Jimmae
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Unsubbed Account PlaceHolder
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:03:00 -
[99]
meh
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Mac Aoidh
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:04:00 -
[100]
Huge face palm for just resubbing yesterday. Don't worry CCP, it won't happen again.
"With A Strong Hand" |
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:05:00 -
[101]
CCP, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You need us more than we need you.
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
Kronus Heilgar
Heilgar Trading Corp.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:05:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Kronus Heilgar on 15/06/2011 18:05:36 Bad call ump. In a single move of greed and desire for milking just a little more out of the game, you just obliterated the 3rd party community.
A couple points:
First rule of lawmaking: don't ever make a rule that you can't enforce. Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license
So you're telling me that you're going to try and make sure that every single player in EVE who does any graphics development and might use an image from the Eve image server pays you your $99? lolfail Where do you draw the line? Nearly every well organized corp in the game has some sort of database that links with the API for member tracking, and usually used for determining mining/salvaging payouts. These corps take a cut of the money their members bring in through mining/salvaging/missioning so technically they're accepting ISK payment for their services (which use the API); are you going to make every corporation that builds a system like this buy a commercial licence?
Quote: CCP does not offer formal technical support to developers or warrant the API in any way. It's provided as is.
Ok yeah I see, so let's charge for a service but deny all liability that it actually has to WORK in the future. Well done. Let's talk about community projects. We have countless services that are open source projects that have an entire community contributing to them (e.g. EVEMon). Many of these accept RL money donations to help keep things running. Who should be responsible for paying for a license for these? Or should you try and get everyone who contributes to throw in $1?
I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here: You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Now to be clear, I completely agree with this idea for services that charge RL money and are looking to make profit$$$. But for free applications that require donations to cover server costs and kids who want to flex their programming muscles to try and make an in-game buck without countless hours of mind-numbing missioning, this is a **** move. If you're dedicated to this ridiculous idea, why $99? Even Apple only charges $99 for its developer license, and let me tell you, you can make a hell of a lot more money through a good app on the iPhone/iPad App Store than you can through a good app in EVE.
I think the problem here is that what you don't realize is the people who can afford to go to the Fanfest round tables and discuss these things are the people who don't care about shelling out another $99/year for an internet spaceship game. Next time, try talking to the average people who actually build most of these things and get the opinion of the realistic clients.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:09:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:10:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 18:14:24
Originally by: Alpheias CCP, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You need us more than we need you.
This pretty much sums up 3rd party app development in eve.
also:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Bruce Svedker
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:11:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
And again, just because they seemed to not realize the problem until about 15 pages of forum rage after. (The IW Scorp MT crap).
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Pesadel0
the muppets RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:12:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Myra2007
Millstone Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 -
[107]
So you're going to rip off the people who helped making eve what it is? Where do you think CCP would be today if it weren't for the thousands of manhours put into third party apps/fansites that provide basic functionality still not supported by your game? I personally would probably have quit right away if it weren't for things like evemon and third party documentation for your software!
Charging people who try to make real money with eve services is one thing. Charging people who provide content in exchange for isk (or even only donations) is a **** move. It shows the people who thought this up don't understand the eve community. Don't understand anything. Shame on you. Shame on you. May your game die a terrible death in the foreseeable future you mighty pricks.
--
Originally by: CCP Elais
It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
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ViRUS Pottage
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
___________
Originally by: CCP Taera May I have your stuff?
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 -
[109]
As a person who runs a site which deals with opinions of the game (podcast, comic, blog, etc.) I'm very, very interested in how this license might attempt to restrict my and my guests' ability to continue openly expressing my opinion.
I don't accept ads or money for what I do, but if that free non-com license tries to tell me what I can and can't say about the game or CCP, then I have some serious concerns.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 -
[110]
Who wants to bet they want a 99$ fee from Chribba for every one of the sites he hosts?
I'll say it again
F*** everything about this. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
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Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:13:00 -
[111]
For paid apps on different markets it's fine, but for services that make revenue in ISK, have to agree this move is an outright bad one.
___
Latest video: Future Proof (720p) 2D Animator |
i hatechosingnames
Gallente Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:14:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Duvida
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Innominate Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 17:59:39
A couple questions: How does this work with open-source applications?
Hypothetical: I'm a poor developer looking to release some useful tool for eve. I can't afford proper hosting and so I use a host that displays ads. How does this work out?
Do you guys at CCP have any idea how reliant your game is on 3rd party applications and tools? Evemon, Fitting tools, map tools, killboards, asset trackers, etc. Virtually all of it created and maintained in some developers spare time. Much of which is all but required to play eve. We're lucky these programs exist, and now you're going to try charging them $100 a year for the privilege of helping to make eve playable?
I'd say "In before Chribba", but I haven't seen him in 4 pages of this. This is a little worrisome.
Just to reemphazise what has been said. CCP, these people have worked for free to improve EVE. Their free work has been responsible for who-knows-how-big a percentage of your subscriber base remaining with EVE. Charging them for the free, very productive work they've done is decidedly wrong. CCP Hillmar, please consider your userbase. Learning... |
NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 -
[114]
Originally by: ViRUS Pottage
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
+1
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Mac Aoidh
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
^^What he said.
"With A Strong Hand" |
Tiny Chesticles
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:15:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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mistersparky
Estrale Frontiers
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:16:00 -
[117]
How the hell is this great news for 3rd party developers?! What a load of rubbish.
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Abramul
Gallente StarFleet Enterprises -Mostly Harmless-
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:16:00 -
[118]
Any chance of offering third-party sites (and maybe some applications, for instance TS or Vent) hosting for PLEX/Aurum, with exact amount scaled to resource usage rather than a flat fee? This would allow small sites to operate without having to request cash donations or use ads, and you could probably even set it up so that users could apply Aurum towards a site's hosting without the option for it turning a profit. And, of course, you could set the amounts so that you're making a modest profit even though hosting isn't your primary business.
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BetsyAnn Tractorfarmer
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:16:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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xHjfx
Minmatar The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:17:00 -
[120]
I fail to see the correlation between the article and this being a "Good deal" or "Great news"
In fact I'd say it was terrible news -----
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Krathos Morpheus
Legion Infernal
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:18:00 -
[121]
Ridiculous, some devs ask for a way to legally charge money directly because the current system is not enough to cover expenses and you punish everyone else by imposing a fee on top of the already insufficient donation and ad system.
It is good that you offer new alternatives, it is stupid that you want to make the current ones worst/inviable. Please use the brain and be rational.
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Shellac Brookdale
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:19:00 -
[122]
Having your hosting costs covered by running ads is already totaly legal today. That means for those sites they'll have to generate $100 extra to get where they are now.
Tools supported through in-game ISK donations/subscriptions have also been perfectly legal so far. That may get the developer some plex to cover subscription costs for his accounts. Now he has to pay $100 extra if he won't be willing to get involved in RMT. And guess what will happen.
So how exactly is this good news? Are we all supposed to create apps that could be market through app store?
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Diotima Saraki
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:19:00 -
[123]
Maybe CCP is just tired of 3rd party websites and applications show-casing the deficiencies of the EVE client?
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Dictator IV
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:20:00 -
[124]
I never login to the forums to complain, so hopefully my voice will carry more weight than it would if I trolled the forums daily.
It is highly unethical to charge these developers who spend day/weeks of their free time making EVE a better community. I am willing to bet that most of them have never even had the desire to charge for their product, yet now you are forcing them to.
If anything, this new program should be a registrar of competent 3rd party programmers that CCP HIRES to keep all the great apps alive that they either don't have the time to make or the ability. If CCP paid the good 3rd party devs $99 a year (still a pittance) it would help with their webhosting, and raise the community as a whole!
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Korvin
Gallente Shadow Kingdom Best Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:21:00 -
[125]
Start to charge 99$ from YouTube! They host those EVE videos and earn money with AD! Facebook next! Way to go! _____________ 4th term 5th term
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Trinity Faetal
Gallente Little Garden
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:21:00 -
[126]
i was waiting for ccp to come up with a brilliant idea that would finally push me over the edge to quit this game forever.
even though this doesn't affect me the slightest, it's still good to see ccp has finally learned to listen to the people that write their paychecks.
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Vladimir Ilych
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:21:00 -
[127]
Okay so I read the last four pages quickly and maybe five or six posts agree with the proposals. The rest say this is a total cluster*** and an insult, more or less.
MT and now this have made me really sad about where Eve is going. CCP have you been bought by some investment vehicle or something? I really don't know if I want to pay my next set of subs after this.
Just increase the subs in line with inflation, hell adjust it for eight years if you want. I would be happy to pay it.
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:22:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Aye
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Caldari Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:23:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Zagdul I have a donate button on my site as my servers cost my alliance over 300+ dollars a month to run.
So now I have to add an additional $99 a year to this cost?
bah.
You suck.
Let's say donations are just to cover DNS and hosting, and that we do not accept donations for any services provided. Done.
People don't need to freak out about this...a 1-page devblog hardly has the legal language a proper software license requires. --------------------------------------------- "Gate is green. Jump and meet your maker." --Mr Vee
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Kate Yeats
Caldari Drone Reprogramming Center
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:23:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
And again. I'll also be shutting down all the support tooling I run if this goes live as is.
This is a completely ridiculous stance to take given the current position. A licence for charging RL currency makes sense but everyone else using 'Eve IP' (that include blogs that mention ship names, images?) requiring a free licence. Best of all is the 'hide it behind a password' loop hole.
Honestly, who the hell wrote these guidelines? They want shooting. Go away, rethink this thing and recognise that fan sites and 3rd party tooling IMPROVE your game, provide free promotion and good will and encourage the community spirit you seem to be so proud of. |Drone Reprogramming Center - Currently Recruiting| |
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:25:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:25:00 -
[132]
Just some thought occured to me:
What if SOMEONE ELSE advertises your website and earns money due to this? Do you still need to pay the $99 even if your website is free and only the other one earns money from it? |
Akira Zendragon
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:26:00 -
[133]
Quote: CCP does not offer formal technical support to developers or warrant the API in any way. It's provided as is.
Didn't notice this the first time around... My view was just upgraded to highway robbery.
So lemme get this right... If, hypothetically speaking, I wanted to make a web-app of some sort and make it available to the community while accepting donations I'd have to:
a) Spend time to develop and maintain hypothetical web-app b) Pay for the hosting costs c) Not be able to accept paypal donations to offset that cost d) Pay $99/yr to use an unsupported service with no warranties or SLA? or is it d) Pay $99/yr for the privilege of accepting ISK donations for my work?
I make a living developing software. Paying $99/yr to work plus x$/mo on hosting to help the community and get some ISK donations does not compute. I'd sooner spend $99/yr on GTCs -> PLEX.
It would work fine if I wanted to develop a mobile or desktop app and sell it, but this is broken beyond repair for most other scenarios. Go back to the drawing board and start again...
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Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Caldari Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:26:00 -
[134]
The best idea yet on this board would be to charge ISK for the service. It would allow identify verification from CCP's point of view, and would serve the double-side of acting as a small sink. --------------------------------------------- "Gate is green. Jump and meet your maker." --Mr Vee
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lushn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:26:00 -
[135]
Year 2015. CCP's greedyness turns to effort to take every cents from eve related activities.
Forums are moneterized. Now replyong topic is $0.25 or 0.20eu. Starting New topic $0.50 or 0.40eu.
If eveonline on you facebook then you have to pay $9 annual fee.
All eve fan site and eve related sites have to pay a fee to CCP
Using stargates? still free but there is a rumor that every jumps will be 10cents.
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Circumstantial Evidence
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:27:00 -
[136]
"ad-supported ventures" would be a violation of your own Terms. Click-through ads are a way of generating "real life currency."
The amount would depending on site popularity: The proposed $100 license fee captures some (if you're battleclinic) - or all - of that revenue.
** ISK donations are optional, voluntary acts. Demanding $100 for apps or services that state "donations gratefully accepted" is ridiculous.
** PLEX is a game object for which CCP has already received payment. I don't understand why this should not be a valid form of payment for apps or services. |
cerbus
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:28:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Kate Yeats
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
stuff
tree quoting in protest of latest ccp troll
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Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:28:00 -
[138]
I think it is a big mistake to also force people who provide an ingame service, for ingame currency, to pay a 100 bucks a year for a licence to do so. For people who actually make money I could totally understand, but people who only make imaginary space bucks, requiring a commercial licence will simply discourage them from providing that service.
So CCP, how many developers you think will cease their ingame activities when they need to pay your 100 bucks on top of whatever other costs they may have (hosting, etc) for a purely in-game service?
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Andrea Griffin
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:28:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
This really ****es me off.
I'm currently working on my own killboard which I plan to release as open source software. It's going to be pretty cool when it's done, it has features the other KBs don't, and I think that people will like it.
Adding a line to the README file that says, "Hey, this is free, but if you'd like to send some ISK as a thank-you that would be great!" is going to cost me $99?
This isn't going to affect my decision to create the software and offer it for free but it sure feels like a slap in the face.
There's a lot of applications and services that will be affected by this, and I guarantee that a majority of developers will do one of two things:
A) Cease development. B) Ignore the licensing.
In case A), the Eve Community misses out. In case B), CCP gets to go after developers of popular apps and look like total jerks.
We lose, CCP loses.
Red Frog now must pay $99 a year because they have a route calculator on their website. EFT must pay $99 a year because the author kindly asks for donations. BattleClinic must pay $99 a year because they host a giant killboard and have some Google ads.
This is a really low blow guys. I'm extremely disappointed. I don't see the point from your perspective and for the Eve community I don't see a single benefit. Utter stupidity. I would use stronger language but it won't accomplish anything.
Maybe I won't finish my board. I'm feeling pretty bitter now. CCP Troll, Best Troll.
- "When I nerf something, it takes 2-3 months for your dreams to be crushed." - CCP Big Dumb Object |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:28:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
+1
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Master Akira
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:29:00 -
[141]
Originally by: cerbus
Originally by: Kate Yeats
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
stuff
tree quoting in protest of latest ccp troll
It's amazing how CCP can turn something that makes sense into a terrible fail thing.
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Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Caldari Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:30:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Nirnaeth Ornoediad on 15/06/2011 18:31:31 The challenge here for CCP is that they've produced a very traditional software license scheme. The problem is that in world of freeware 3rd party extensions coupled with the bonds of community (in the form of random ISK donations), that model doesn't work.
Good point about Red Frog, btw. --------------------------------------------- "Gate is green. Jump and meet your maker." --Mr Vee
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:31:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
bump
the only greedy reason I can imagine: CCP plans to kill competition to implement the stuff in the incarna-holodeck.
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Morphisat
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:31:00 -
[144]
Looks like CCP is starting to run low on cash and now start milking Eve for everything it has, no matter the consequences !
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EI Digin
Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:32:00 -
[145]
A terrible idea.
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Che Geo
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:32:00 -
[146]
I'm all for allowing people who WANT to charge $0.99 at the app-store for some EVE related APP.
What is the maggot attached to the sphincter of the Hyena is, CCP Charging EVERYONE $99 for ANY app created, even if you want to give it away for free. Now you have no choice; you HAVE to sell it $0.99 just to cover the CCP Invoice!
The bacteria attached to that maggotÆs sphincter are CCP charging $99 for services... Just what the hell are they thinking.
Whoever came up with that idea needs to be kicked in the sack once by ever character created in EVE.
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Amber Villaneous
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:32:00 -
[147]
The slippery slope just got steeper. Fugg You CCP. Reason #67(made up number) why my 5 subs will not be renewed when they expire, CYA bubye.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:34:00 -
[148]
Password loophole - Place all 3rd party stuff behind a password and accidentally make the password known to everyone? If CCP say "hey this isn't a corp/private website" then just claim an unofficial coalition (since ccp hasn't coded for coalitions in game).
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:34:00 -
[149]
Quote: @swearte Swearte Widfarend
#tweetfleet I love @EveOnline they try to make a balanced, reasonable (seems so) approach to monetizing 3PP, and whiners explode. #moartears
Retweeted by HilmarVeigar
Linkage
at least Hilmar is having fun...
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Ibn Faldan
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:35:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Ibn Faldan on 15/06/2011 18:35:31 I'm curious, who exactly gets left out in the licensing approach? There is a non-commercial AND a commercial license. And its clear that there are many pragmatic people on here that truly lack an understanding of economics. Eve didn't even HAVE to provide an API, did they? Now they want to make some money back on their time spent up front and ongoing on this, and only for those looking to commercialize their works - exactly how does that put YOU out directly? I want to hear some real stories from real people who will really be left out in the cold by this, not those who have a philosophical disagreement with this.
Fire away.
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oniplE
MeMento.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:36:00 -
[151]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Congratulations, you have reached a new low. This is by far the worst idea put forward by CCP ever. I honostly can't understand why you would even begin to think this was a good idea. It's appalling, trying to squeeze money out of people that try to improve the game experience. Disgusting. __________________________________________ Signature starts here |
Kharmino
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:36:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I didnt expect me to have to post this two days in a row:
Originally by: Kharmino
CCP WTF?!?!?!?!
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Ibn Faldan Edited by: Ibn Faldan on 15/06/2011 18:35:31 I'm curious, who exactly gets left out in the licensing approach? There is a non-commercial AND a commercial license. And its clear that there are many pragmatic people on here that truly lack an understanding of economics. Eve didn't even HAVE to provide an API, did they? Now they want to make some money back on their time spent up front and ongoing on this, and only for those looking to commercialize their works - exactly how does that put YOU out directly? I want to hear some real stories from real people who will really be left out in the cold by this, not those who have a philosophical disagreement with this.
Fire away.
From the looks of things, anyone asking for donations to help cover server expenses (read: most corp/alliance websites) will now require a commercial license and have their costs increased by $100 -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 -
[154]
There is no :facepalm: big enough for this. ____________________________________________
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Akira Zendragon
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Andrea Griffin
Red Frog now must pay $99 a year because they have a route calculator on their website. EFT must pay $99 a year because the author kindly asks for donations. BattleClinic must pay $99 a year because they host a giant killboard and have some Google ads.
And it just dawned to me that E-UNI hosts a couple of web-apps and accepts donations to cover hosting costs. I'd like to know just how much $$$ CCP has made because of the work the volunteers at E-UNI have been doing for all these years...
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Tjarish
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:38:00 -
[156]
Really... just no.
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Quetazoid
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:39:00 -
[157]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
How low can you go?
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Decon Ko
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:40:00 -
[158]
Edited by: Decon Ko on 15/06/2011 18:41:02
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
It really needed the h2 tag, sorry. --
This: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1248088 |
Chruker
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:41:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Chruker on 15/06/2011 18:41:29 I sure hope you guys drink a lot. We dont want you to get too dehydrated from all that pee'ing on your community ----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online ----- Top wishes: - No daily downtime - Faster training on sisi
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Sharon Tate
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:41:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
+1
While I have no issue with licensing for true commercial apps, requiring commercial licenses for ISK supported or donation apps is pretty fail. Even ad supported sites requiring licenses is pretty fail.
All this will do is simply decrease the number of third party apps, and/or eliminate the good free ones. -------------------------------------------- Minister of Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Eggs, Bacon and Spam |
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Azia Burgi
Caldari Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 -
[161]
Edited by: Azia Burgi on 15/06/2011 18:42:32 What happens if you refuse to pay?
This is a sure fire way of killing off a healthy and vibrant ecosystem. Name and shame the people that insisted this was a good idea at fanfest.
Utter nonsense.
Azia Burgi http://aziaburgi.me.uk BP Profit Calculator EVE Cemetery |
Rack Olamb
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Ibn Faldan Edited by: Ibn Faldan on 15/06/2011 18:35:31 I'm curious, who exactly gets left out in the licensing approach? There is a non-commercial AND a commercial license. And its clear that there are many pragmatic people on here that truly lack an understanding of economics. Eve didn't even HAVE to provide an API, did they? Now they want to make some money back on their time spent up front and ongoing on this, and only for those looking to commercialize their works - exactly how does that put YOU out directly? I want to hear some real stories from real people who will really be left out in the cold by this, not those who have a philosophical disagreement with this.
Fire away.
From the looks of things, anyone asking for donations to help cover server expenses (read: most corp/alliance websites) will now require a commercial license and have their costs increased by $100
In this respect, I can agree that it would be wise of CCP to consider tweaking this proposal to leave out those who are running ad-supported sites or asking for donations. Those forms of income are optional and as a result, people in this bracket do indeed have something valid to complain about.
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Agora Phobic
Gallente Pinnacle Endeavors
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Kharmino
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:42:00 -
[164]
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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cerbus
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:43:00 -
[165]
Question.
If I spend three months designing, marketing and setting up a ingame event that has its own website and mobile apps, is non-profit but requires isk or an ingame item payment to enter, that thousands of people take part in and enjoy with multiple unquantifiable benifits to CCP for FREE, I have to pay $99 for a commercial liscence.
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Implying Implications
Minmatar Broski Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 -
[166]
Originally by: CCP
GIVE US YOUR MONEY
>Implying Implications |
Matalino
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free a fee
Fixed that for you.
If the developer is working for free, they are not being charged anything. They just need to fill out a registration form.
Only if the developer is working for a fee, do they need to pay CCP. There is no real difference between developers whose fees are paid by users or paid by those advertising to users. The developer is still getting paid for his efforts in both situations, and should rightfully pay CCP for profiting off of CCP's property.
At least now CCP has a license that allows third party developers to legally profit from their efforts if they want to. If developers don't want to profit from their efforts, they need only fill out a form and carry on as before.
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Wollari
Phoenix Industries Saints Amongst Sinners
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 -
[168]
Well ... That makes a couple decisions easier for the future. ...
Some thought:
- shattered crystal, battleclinic links for gtc stores generate some sort of revenue aswell ... -> commercial
- usual donation buttons, etc never really cover the running cost
- big alliances and web services have running costs of 50-150$ per month. Donations have never reached that goal on monthly basis. If you don't ask or beg for donations (like special things like HW upgrade etc) people are greedy and if you're lucky you get 50% of your running costs
- don't know about revenue from ads since I don't have them yet
- the current rules will change my point of view towards ccp
- fansite vs commercial license. Being listed as fanpage usually give you some kind of benefits on fanfes, account etc. But isn't it strange to either get the smiling thanks from ccp employes for your community work while grabbing your money with the other? Sounds like a fair deal to me.
- taking part in the eve affliate program gives some sort of revenue aswell. Cool then you're commercial now! Pay CCP money to bring them more customers!
---
I still see a difference in people
- providing a free service or tool while having a donation button for those who really like your work. Advertising for ISK or only eve related stuff only (no google ads, etc)
- people asking isk for their tools and service (example lotteries)
- people asking RL money for their tools (online service or apps) or gaining RL money through advertisment.
---
From my point of view: I'll need more money (maybe through ads) to cover all the future costs, cause I would more likely use the money for my family and my newborn rather then CCP. Sorry CCP
Just hope that fansites and services won't look like bild.de In the future ....
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northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:44:00 -
[169]
I have the feeling People going to start leaving eve....
Just a feeling but my view on this well I am on the fence until I understand what's what as their confusion going on. ------------------------------------
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 -
[170]
And I thought null sec anomalies changes were stupid. Now this is a whole new level of stupid.
I agree if you opened some kind of app store some kind of license would possibly be ok, but charging developers who accept isk donations is beyond stupid, you are ****ing on every good thing that those developers do for the community.
CCP, YOU SUCK!
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Mitchello
B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 -
[171]
Please do not take this the wrong way.
But if you (CCP) go "wtf" now and crawl back from yet another monetisation experiment gone wrong due to not doing homework properly and just treating this amazing game and commerce potential that is EVE as a maltreated personal playground ..... on a basis of "oops we had a communications hiccup" .... honestly, I won't know what to say.
This is dumb.
What company in this industry consciously aims to decrease the synergy that its users create when the major parts of its sales and ****ing retention plus experience value above core gameplay is so bloody critical for any commercial provisioning of immersive environments.
For a few dollars more. On top of existing revenue targets.
But really, I just have to ask.
1. Was this another "experiment" a la let's push MT a little further again under the guise of "oops" while dumping that on a CSM? 2. Or was this another case of "oops communications"?
Please, don't take any of this thread personal. This is business, by your choice.
But regardless of whether it is 1 or 2, this really is not your best week is it.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
|
Ibn Faldan
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 -
[172]
Originally by: Sharon Tate
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
+1
While I have no issue with licensing for true commercial apps, requiring commercial licenses for ISK supported or donation apps is pretty fail. Even ad supported sites requiring licenses is pretty fail.
All this will do is simply decrease the number of third party apps, and/or eliminate the good free ones.
I agree with you Sharon, this license should not extend to ad-supported sites or to those asking for donations. That IS a bit too far. Those who require payment for access to services however, certainly should not have a problem with paying a licensing fee to support the API that feeds them.
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Kerrisone
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 -
[173]
Here's another question, what are your thoughts that players who made or ran services for other players at no charge but were open to donations to pay the time/effort or server costs to work on the project/pay the bills now turning their services to pay only? So where once players would take the burden of doing something good and being open to player's good will in donations are now strongly pressured to charge a fee for their service as others will do that.
They can give away their work and pay out of pocket for hosting/time spent working on the project while others charge for a similar service. The option is then to pass on the costs to users, keep spending money supporting a service that enhances EVE, or shut it down.
We've had people spend their own money to enhance player's enjoyment of EVE for years, some asked for/accepted nothing and others were open to donations or had ran ads to cover costs(to what efficiency is questionable). You now essentially 'pit' them against each other where some are getting paid, ie they charge and it is popular enough to cover hosting/etc of course after you get your $99 a year. Then others charge and maybe don't cover your $99 or their own expenses, website, development etc. Finally the rest who must give their work away for free and cannot accept anything to cover any costs so they are in a situation where according to you they must pay out of pocket to let anyone use their product/service in the form of hosting/distribution as well as development/updating as nearly any service/app will need.
|
Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:45:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
This.
I don't think CCP realizes how bad this game would be without the 3rd party services and only very few of them will continue to exist if they can't even put ads or receive isk donations.
Devblogs like this one really make me fear for the future of this game. ____________________________________________
|
Herr Nerdstrom
Caldari Havoc Violence and Chaos Merciless.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:46:00 -
[175]
I knew that CCP wasn't really connected with the community, but the apparent bubble that CCP lives in is clearly described here...and I am astonished and disgusted. Any ad-driven EVE Online site is now required to pay RL $$ to CCP for that site? You want to charge for something that is already free? You want people to pay for access to something through a formal license agreement, but then provide *zero* real support when something breaks? Are you serious?
How is this anything but CCP trying to cash in on the work performed by the community? This is right up there with the money laundering scheme introduced through Aurem. I am wondering if CCP is deliberately trying to kill EVE Online, because this is a good step in that direction.
|
|
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 -
[176]
ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | in-game 'Holy Veldspar' Now /w voice |
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Alijah Mercer
Caldari King Wholesaling
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 -
[177]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
This one is unacceptable. There is absolutely no excuse to charge people who are running businesses that support eve in exchange for in game currency.
If we run a mining service in game and make isk off it will be need this license? No, of course not. So it should be the same for running a service for isk outside the game that relates directly to the game. The eve-commander.com website is a great example of this. There is no excuse for charging someone who is working for isk, real life cash. Your very own rules do not allow the conversion of isk to cash in sales why would you charge cash to a business that is working for isk?
Basically what you are saying is Eve is a sandbox unless the person in the sandbox provides a programming service. Worried about checking these people out? Tough, Eat the $99.00 cost on the ones that are only charging isk for services. Most people are likely greedy and will charge money so you'll be able to get your $99 anyways, but the ones who continue to operate on the game basis and stick with isk payments should be rewarded by being able to avoid this fee.
The most "legal" reward a person working for isk can get is a plex for his account. It's money hungry company BS to try to make an extra buck off this and I believe it's going to hurt the "community" you claim to strive for if you go this route.
I hope you think seriously about this issue. I can see charging $99.00 for a developer to be licensed to produce commercial software if their fee's are in cash or advertisements, but not when it's an isk exchange. In the latter case it is simply a continuation of the sandbox environment you claimed to create.
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Jarne
Caldari Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 -
[178]
Originally by: cerbus
Originally by: Kate Yeats
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
stuff
tree quoting in protest of latest ccp troll
**** this... even a free non-commercial license is too much hassle for most people hosting their own small sites, killboards etc. How could anybody developing 3rd-party apps/sites NOT be colossaly ****ed off by this? Spit your customers in the face, CPP. Yes, I said customers, which I would have never considered myself, but now you're making me feel like one in a bad way. - Success=Achievements/Expectations
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Ibn Faldan
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:47:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1
|
Qoi
Exert Force
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:49:00 -
[180]
Quote: Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
|
|
George Wilkes Hill
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:49:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
|
Artificial Soldier
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:49:00 -
[182]
so, first thought....I'm just going to go write WoW addons from now on. At least that won't end up costing me if someone felt inclined to send me some in-game currency :P
At any rate, between this and what little I've read on the Scorpion for Aurum (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1526442&page=1#7), it just seems the game is moving further and further away from what attracted me to it. Right as we are finally getting Ambulation/WiS/Incarna/<whatever> too... |
Rasz Lin
Caldari Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:49:00 -
[183]
dont worry guys,
what you do is you create private free service using API behind a password
and then link to it from your paid add/donation supported aliance site
|
SencneS
Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:50:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Ibn Faldan I want to hear some real stories from real people who will really be left out in the cold by this, not those who have a philosophical disagreement with this.
Remember it's not just $99 for "new" apps it's $99 for apps/services that accept any sort of payment, including ISK. If you get paid 0.10 ISK for anything 3rd party that uses API in some way... You got to pay $99..
If I have an Application or Service it uses API for whatever reason, I must not only take down all the "Donations welcome" things, I can't legally accept anyone sending me ISK just to keep developing it.
I have to develop it free, and return all ISK given to me in order to maintain my non-commercial license. No ads, No ISK, No Paypal donations, 100% free with zero in-game or out of game compensation for my time and effort.
Considering ISK is an In-game asset, which we all know everything in game is owned by CCP, this requirement to pay CCP $99 in order to get ISK is nothing short of the biggest rectal fornication I've seen from CCP in a while.
Amarr for Life |
Lord Agger
Gallente Humanum Erectum
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:52:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Lord Agger on 15/06/2011 18:52:24 Reading thru the comments two things springs to my mind..
1. Not a single reply from CCP have been made, have all the employees been silenced on this topic.
2. Being a dane (And proud of it), we have a saying thats clearly summs up this entire topic..
DET' EN OMMER For those who do not understand danish, the short translation would be a loud shout 'Thats a re-do'
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Judy BigShot
Big Shot - For the Bounty Hunters
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:52:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1
I wanted to code a nice 3rd Party Bounty Hunter System, which CCP didnt do for years. My plan was to have a little ISK-fee for this service, so I can pay my accounts with GTC. I have to pay for the website and server (about 30$ a year) - now CCP wants to charge me additional 99$???? WTF?!?
Big Shot - For the Bounty Hunters! http://eve-bigshot.com |
Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:52:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Ibn Faldan
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1
+1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Shields are like pants, they're supposed to come off. Armor is like the condom once its gone ur ****ed |
Duvida
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:52:00 -
[188]
Just occurred to me, just how much free advertising all those developers of 3rd party apps have been giving EVE. In addition to keeping subscribers onboard by providing tools that make EVE more enjoyable.
Shutting down the free work provided by these developers also shuts down the free advertising that their sites provide for EVE. I don't think you'll get $99 from developers that are trying to cover their server and bandwidth fees by providing a 'donate here' link. I think you'll lose a good percentage of your subscriber base as well as not having newcomers to replace them, due to the loss of advertising. Learning... |
Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:53:00 -
[189]
Talk about a punch in the ****. ____________________________________________
|
Ibn Faldan
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:53:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Rasz Lin dont worry guys,
what you do is you create private free service using API behind a password
and then link to it from your paid add/donation supported aliance site
Clever. :D
|
|
George Wilkes Hill
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:55:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
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Mitchello
B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:55:00 -
[192]
@CCP_Manifest CCP_Manifest Hey guys, working on a quick reply here from the original blogwriter #eveonline #tweetfleet
From twitter.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
|
Cynthia Ysolde
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:56:00 -
[193]
this is nearly as stupid as the nano nerf. Brasts |
Mr Rive
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:57:00 -
[194]
No CCP, its not all about the money. You just sold your biggest fans out
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:57:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Cynthia Ysolde this is nearly as stupid as the nano nerf.
Except that the nanonerf was needed and made tons of creative setups possible instead of "nano or go home".
This on the other hand will cost CCP more money than they will ever earn with it. ____________________________________________
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Mac Aoidh
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:58:00 -
[196]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Quote: @swearte Swearte Widfarend
#tweetfleet I love @EveOnline they try to make a balanced, reasonable (seems so) approach to monetizing 3PP, and whiners explode. #moartears
Retweeted by HilmarVeigar
Linkage
at least Hilmar is having fun...
This almost ****es me off more than the dev blog. Apparently, the CEO of CCP thinks we're all just whiners!
"With A Strong Hand" |
Judy BigShot
Big Shot - For the Bounty Hunters
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:58:00 -
[197]
And how do you want to keep track which site is using which licence and i charging which amounts in which ways? How expensive is THAT gonna be for you? Not likely to be any profit for those few who might pay you. Just guessing... around 100 ppl gonna actually pay for this GREAT service. Thats 9900$ a year w/o taxes. How many hamsters can you pay with that?! And how many subscribers you gonna loose with that move? This idea sounds so much like Dilbert...
Big Shot - For the Bounty Hunters! http://eve-bigshot.com |
Niraia
Zaratha Zarati Aggravated Assault..
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:58:00 -
[198]
"Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license."
Why, when you can't exchange ISK for real currency?
Why is this great news for 3rd party developers?
What the hell is wrong with you? You must understand that third party developers make your game better, yet you want to **** them over for more money? Isn't API access included as part of our subscription? You seem to have earn enough money from EVE players, with two new titles on the horizon.
Most people couldn't give a **** about idiots like Roc who want to make real currency with their third party EVE stuff when others happily develop for free, or some ISK.
I think I've lost what little respect I had left for your company, and will have to cease development on the few things I do besides EOH Poker because of this. Good job.
|
Hagbard23Celine
Liga Freier Terraner Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:58:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1
|
Sorakage
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 18:59:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Innominate Edited by: Innominate on 15/06/2011 18:14:24
Originally by: Alpheias CCP, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You need us more than we need you.
This pretty much sums up 3rd party app development in eve.
also:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
They are kind of blind so you need to have the message to create a 70 page thread to give them the suspicion that we do not like the idea.
|
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Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:00:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 15/06/2011 19:03:38 CCP perhaps you could show us some examples of sites which would require a license going forward, and those which would not.
CCP do you have anyone read these blogs before posting them? I think perhaps you have the worst PR department in history.
***** Signature may appear without warning! ***** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
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ViRUS Pottage
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:00:00 -
[202]
Originally by: George Wilkes Hill
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Where did Chribba post this? ___________
Originally by: CCP Taera May I have your stuff?
|
BugraT WarheaD
Astromechanica Federatis
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:00:00 -
[203]
Edited by: BugraT WarheaD on 15/06/2011 19:00:40
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1 here !
|
Satsuki Kakuri
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:01:00 -
[204]
I don't see how this is great news. In fact, this is probably going to make me stop working on my various eve related program projects.
My Carbonite backup service runs me $50/year. That is far more valuable then what you are offering. So $99/year is not cheap enough for this.
You are asking for $99/year for something that I'm going to write for free, and maybe get some isk donations in the process which most assuredly would not recoup any costs. No. Hell no. Not worth it at all.
How about I write a program and put it up for free and people still feel the need to send me isk? Am I supposed to return it saying I didn't pay the license fee? Or better yet, I decide I don't feel like developing it any further, and they still send me isk?
This is horrible news.
|
Valemora
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:03:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Lost Hamster
Originally by: Ibn Faldan
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1
+1
|
geilesding
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:04:00 -
[206]
[This is not a donation button]
|
Delta Jax
NixCraft IMPERIAL LEGI0N
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:04:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Delta Jax on 15/06/2011 19:06:15 Okay CCP, you want to be able to charge 99$ for this.. well guess what... not only have you took a pis$ all over the players, but your not offering anything of added value that we can already do with the API.
You want this $$ then I want an API license that is able to:
- Change Training skill queues.
- Queue Production/Research Jobs.(at corp pos's)
- And be able to actually DO other crap like above
And seriously, many open source project ask for donations.. they don't violate the GPL. Not to mention the only thing you got to enforce this is DCMA takedown notices.. that's pretty fail.
I might not be a lawyer, but once you start licensing out commercial aspects you just opened a box of worms
Tell those people in finance department to get the $$ out of their eyes, this will end badly for you.
|
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:05:00 -
[208]
Little more calming down in this thread would do. Just because you set your font point size to 36 doesn't mean anyone is going to care more about your post. They see that people are upset and are working on a reply. Can we go back to 12 point font now?
___
Latest video: Future Proof (720p) 2D Animator |
Mitchello
B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:06:00 -
[209]
Originally by: ViRUS Pottage
Originally by: George Wilkes Hill
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Where did Chribba post this?
Here: http://bit.ly/l5ypuP
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
|
Optional Patch
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:06:00 -
[210]
Unless CCP wants people to stop developing eve-related sites and services this is stupid on an epic scale. As a web developer I, like many others, have small side-projects dedicated to hobbies.
Many developers will devote hundreds of hours to making a site/app/service with the vain hope that when they hit it big they will be able to buy... I don't know... a new monitor. Almost never happens. Like 99% of the time.
I doubt this is about the money for CCP, however the $99 yearly charge is simply ill-thought out.
A one-time $20 fee sounds about right, adapt or die.
|
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:07:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Mac Aoidh
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Quote: @swearte Swearte Widfarend
#tweetfleet I love @EveOnline they try to make a balanced, reasonable (seems so) approach to monetizing 3PP, and whiners explode. #moartears
Retweeted by HilmarVeigar
Linkage
at least Hilmar is having fun...
This almost ****es me off more than the dev blog. Apparently, the CEO of CCP thinks we're all just whiners!
|
Dirk Decibel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:07:00 -
[212]
I'll just go ahead and quote this:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here: You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Phigmeta
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:07:00 -
[213]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog. Read all about the new business license and monetizing 3rd party apps here.
Read German translation Read Russian translation
Here let me translate that for you:
CCP has decided that:
a) our war on RMT has not gone well because our PLEX sales are stagnant. b) The reaction of the Eve folk to the JB nerf has NOT made more supers die (therefore forcing more PLEX purchases) c) We anticipate that the AOR idea won't really take off because this ISN'T freaking WOW d) We are getting more and more greedy and really only working on stuff that makes YOU spend more RL money on our stupidity.
SOOOO we have now opened up a new way to screw you .... thank me.
|
Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:07:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Apollo Gabriel on 15/06/2011 19:10:50 Page 6 mid page.
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
I would have thought this thread an over-reaction threadnaut if it weren't for these words.
***** Signature may appear without warning! ***** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
|
Chas Davia
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:08:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Chas Davia on 15/06/2011 19:10:16 CCP are just being lazy and copying Apple:
http://developer.apple.com/programs/ios/
However, they are categorically NOT Apple - the market for eve aps != the market for iOS apps, especially if the $99 fee does not come with commercial support, and a development pack / suite. Everyone is in agreement that there is a requirement for a commercial exploitation licence - but this seems a step too far.
Most API developers are INCREASING the value of the CCP IP, not making money from it. |
Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:08:00 -
[216]
As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules. -----------------------------------
More stuff goes here. |
GKO
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:09:00 -
[217]
"What will CCP do next?" lol :) It feels like Atlas got drunk and posted a troll :) You made even Chribba cry Dude...
In case you did not see this coming CCP: This is a game about spaceships. Do some research. There are important things to fix in YOUR client software. This creates a need for 3rd party apps, but hell yeah, let them pay you to help you :)
And that asshats quote comes here.
|
Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:11:00 -
[218]
Quote: We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee. . .
$99 is not "as low as possible", $0 is.
Mojang originally was going to charge for their mod API license, but then changed it to be free (see Notch's blog). So this kind of licensing can be done without charging the developers.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
|
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:12:00 -
[219]
I remember of zero punctuation review of eve. He said eve is like a job that you have to pay for. Now developers that spend time and money to give us great services will have to pay CCP for a second job.
|
Kersh Marelor
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:13:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
|
|
Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:15:00 -
[221]
I am guessing the intent here was:
Some players wanted to develop 3rd party isk revenue services. CCP didn't want to deal with IP violations, so came up with the licensing system. Then as the did with skill descriptions, completely ****ed it up.
***** Signature may appear without warning! ***** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
|
Kainan Mai
Amarr APEX ARDENT COALITION C0NVICTED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:16:00 -
[222]
Popz! Popz! |
bp920091
Killer Koalas R.A.G.E
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:16:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Kersh Marelor
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
This needs to be said again and again until CCP GETS IT!!!
|
Algathas
The Revenge of Auntie Freeze
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:18:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:18:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Sorry Chribba, but welcome to New-Era CCP. Money is the way, **** the players and **** the people who support the game. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
|
Liang Nuren
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:18:00 -
[226]
Originally by: Apollo Gabriel I am guessing the intent here was:
Some players wanted to develop 3rd party isk revenue services. CCP didn't want to deal with IP violations, so came up with the licensing system. Then as the did with skill descriptions, completely ****ed it up.
It was a can of worms that should NEVER have been opened up tbh. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
|
Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:19:00 -
[227]
Oh god. I totally forgot about EVE Voice and CCP's hair brained scheme to nickle and dime its customers... Now they are back at it.
@ CCP: Trying to exact blood out of your [supremely] loyal 3rd party developers is counter-intuitive. These people offer services that greatly enrich YOUR mother ****ing IP and current cash cow.
Unbelievable.
Originally by: Higgs Bison How will EVE be affected if Dust is a flop?
|
Jessie42
Minmatar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:20:00 -
[228]
Dear Hilmar,
Suck a ****.
Love, Goonwaffe.
|
Kronus Heilgar
Heilgar Trading Corp.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:20:00 -
[229]
Thank you everyone who has quoted my red rage text, You are charging people who work for free to make your game better, you asshats as I really think it's helped to drive the point home to CCP.
As a developer myself, I have been rather shocked and frustrated by this decision. I have taken it upon myself to organize a shut-down of 3rd party apps/services that are effected by this but who never intend to make a RL dime. For details and to proclaim your support, visit the main thread
|
Woo Glin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:20:00 -
[230]
I regularly pay isk for pictures of hairy bellies, does this apply to me?
P.S. Convo me if you have a big hairy belly and want to rub it on cam for iskies. No gay **** just two dudes showin' off their bellies.
|
|
Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:21:00 -
[231]
Ok, my turn now.
For those who don't know me, I'm the CEO of EVE University, and I run a fairly popular site with 110,000+ unique visitors per month across all the sites.
Hosting costs aren't cheap at all, as there's the forums, wiki, mumble server and so on open to the community at large, and in fact, right now I am in the middle of moving to another hosting platform that can cope with the level of traffic we get.
To run all our services, we accept donations of ISK and items in-game, and use Shattered Crystal affiliate links and PayPal donations to cover the majority of the server/hosting costs.
In short, we pretty much break even assuming we don't have any major outgoings, and something like $99 per year, while possible (I'd have to either fund it out of my own pocket, or ask for donations, which I hate) would be far from ideal.
To CCP in general: I think its safe to say the devblog needs some drastic clarifications, or there is a very good chance you will lose the people who love EVE so much they go beyond subscribing and buying GTCs/PLEX - they spend their free time to help the community, and by extension CCP. _____
|
Scalar Angulargf
Rayn Enterprises Test Alliance Please Ignore
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:21:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Not empty quoting. Seriously what the ****. Commercial websites, I can see. Donations for hosting costs? I don't think so.
|
Lutz Major
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:22:00 -
[233]
You should be charged for the countless hours that 3rd party developers used to write documentations about your precious API!
|
Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:24:00 -
[234]
Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 15/06/2011 19:25:34 I would urge CCP to amend or clarify their policy to state the following rules:
1: If you make any real-world (dollars, euros, whatever) profit (this means: after covering your costs) off your service/app/website, you need a commercial licence.
2: If you do not make any real world profit off your service/app/website, you can use the non-commercial licence.
This will allow people to monetize their apps for profit, but not hurt those who just provide a service for their corp or for eve, at their own expense (server costs, etc).
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:26:00 -
[235]
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Here's HOW MUCH I make for providing the six and totally free and open to everyone services on my self paid hosted website.
A WHOLE 0.25 Ç in 6 months!!!
Anyone understand why this initiative is completely ret****ed?
Moreover I spent weeks making the graphics inspired to EvE despite the website is for my other MMOs as well. I will have to tear everything down and suffer labour derived damage.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Mac Aoidh
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:27:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Lutz Major You should be charged for the countless hours that 3rd party developers used to write documentations about your precious API!
I don't think you can put a price on what developers like Chribba have done for the game.
"With A Strong Hand" |
woddel
Gallente Canis Industries Ltd Avaricious Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:28:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Joe SMASH As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.
i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com... --- creator and maintainer of eve commander - complete web based character information tool and ec agent finder |
salty Milk
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:28:00 -
[238]
I get the feeling this is the tip of the iceberg.
Under the water I'm detecting 3rd party development of hats.
|
Feroz
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:28:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
SPAECMARNIES
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:29:00 -
[240]
CCP is just proving again they have lost all contact with reality. I was working on Eden, an all-in mac-tool for fittings and character management, which is bound to be released for _free_ and as _open source_ (BSD), and I'll consider dropping that project immediately.
**** you, CCP. **** you very much.
|
|
Optional Patch
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:29:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 15/06/2011 19:25:34 I would urge CCP to amend or clarify their policy to state the following rules:
1: If you make any real-world (dollars, euros, whatever) profit (this means: after covering your costs) off your service/app/website, you need a commercial licence.
2: If you do not make any real world profit off your service/app/website, you can use the non-commercial licence.
This will allow people to monetize their apps for profit, but not hurt those who just provide a service for their corp or for eve, at their own expense (server costs, etc).
Sorry that is almost equally stupid. Like CCP wants to chase developers and audit their nickels and dimes...
As said before, one time low cost fee is the only way out of this mess.
|
Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:29:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Mac Aoidh
Originally by: Lutz Major You should be charged for the countless hours that 3rd party developers used to write documentations about your precious API!
I don't think you can put a price on what developers like Chribba have done for the game.
Yes you can, it's about $35 per manhour spent on designing, bringing up and maintaining the services. I guess the total is hanging at 2-4 years...
|
Niraia
Zaratha Zarati Aggravated Assault..
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:29:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 15/06/2011 19:24:44 I would urge CCP to amend or clarify their policy to state the following rules:
1: If you make any real-world (dollars, euros, whatever) profit (this means: after covering your costs) off your service/app/website, you need a commercial licence.
2: If you do not make any real world profit off your service/app/website, you can use the non-commercial service.
This will allow people to monetize their apps for profit, but not hurt those who just provide a service for their corp or for eve, at their own expense (server costs, etc).
Someone would have to check up on that, at a cost greater than a one-off $99 per license. Further, I could claim that the cost of my time to develop the software is worth a million dollars, pay myself everything it earned, and never consider any of it profit.
|
Ovidia Rhianon
Caldari Mining and Industrial Services Imperial 0rder
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:29:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I'm fairly new to the game and I am already starting to really dislike you CCP.
|
Kerrisone
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:30:00 -
[245]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal Edited by: Dierdra Vaal on 15/06/2011 19:25:34 I would urge CCP to amend or clarify their policy to state the following rules:
1: If you make any real-world (dollars, euros, whatever) profit (this means: after covering your costs) off your service/app/website, you need a commercial licence.
2: If you do not make any real world profit off your service/app/website, you can use the non-commercial licence.
This will allow people to monetize their apps for profit, but not hurt those who just provide a service for their corp or for eve, at their own expense (server costs, etc).
No way to know who makes profit or doesn't.
Better way would be a much cheaper charge ONCE or if needed every year but still much less like $5-20 max. Along with some of the suggestions on letting people accept optional donations or use ads to pay for hosting/etc.
Direct selling of a service or app for REAL money should need the commercial license. Simply accepting the good will of players for a free product/service is BS. ISK doesn't count as 'getting paid' unless CCP wants to embrace RMT/laundering.
|
Malcore Trisus
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:30:00 -
[246]
From the same people who brought you banning draft in the alliance tournament, now comes "Pay CCP for your eve related website"
I cannot express how dumbfounding this whole devblog is. I mean, I understand that none of you actually play the game, but I don't understand why you want to make sure that no one else does either.
|
Lord Googoo
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:30:00 -
[247]
Whoever was the genius behind this idea needs to be fired ASAP and send their resume to Apple instead. They obviously have no place at CCP.
|
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:30:00 -
[248]
I got 99 dollars but CCP ain't getting one. _______________
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Flamewave
Crimson Moon Society
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:31:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Mac Aoidh
Originally by: Lutz Major You should be charged for the countless hours that 3rd party developers used to write documentations about your precious API!
I don't think you can put a price on what developers like Chribba have done for the game.
They should be paying Chribba tbfh, not the other way around. __________
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CCP Manifest
C C P
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:31:00 -
[250]
Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
CCP Manifest Public Relations and Social Media|| Iniquitous Brute |
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Levarr Burton
B0rthole Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:32:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Kersh Marelor
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
This is literally the worst idea I've heard CCP publicly disclose. And that is saying quite a bit. You are trying to make a cheap buck off of people who, at no cost to you, improve the experience of dealing with your game. You also ignore all the other monetary costs that the people hosting those sites have to pay already, and ignore the fact that very few external sites are run for profit.
If CCP goes ahead with this change, I honestly hope all the external sites (even the ones I use on a daily basis) shut down, rather than coughing up yet more cash. In ur engineering, fixin' ur warp core. |
Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:32:00 -
[252]
Originally by: woddel
Originally by: Joe SMASH As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.
i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com...
Pass on the word to other major website owners. I do not run one myself, but a 24h blackout would def get your point across. Especially if it was on a high TQ population day. (Holiday, weekend, etc) Would be great to get Chribba and Wollari on board, but I understand yanking a site for even 24h might be hard (if not impossible) for them. -----------------------------------
More stuff goes here. |
Optional Patch
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:32:00 -
[253]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
More than simply a clarification is needed.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:33:00 -
[254]
Calling it now - CCP have done a microsoft.
CCP have watched people developing tools for free all this time, now they'll start charging for a license. If the 3rd parties pay and carry on, good news for CCP, money for nothing. If they stop developing, CCP now knows what they need to do (especially since most projects are open source), and will release their own CCPEVEMON or CCPEFT and charge for the usage.
Well played, ***gots.
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Anowene Amatarsu
Caldari m3 WeaponSmiths
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:34:00 -
[255]
Edited by: Anowene Amatarsu on 15/06/2011 19:34:58 .
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GKO
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:34:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Malcore Trisus From the same people who brought you banning draft in the alliance tournament, now comes "Pay CCP for your eve related website"
I cannot express how dumbfounding this whole devblog is. I mean, I understand that none of you actually play the game, but I don't understand why you want to make sure that no one else does either.
+1 :D It is like a cuddly bear who tries different things and fails horribly. Each and every time.
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Gank'aho
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:34:00 -
[257]
Edited by: Gank''aho on 15/06/2011 19:34:32
Originally by: Optional Patch
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
More than simply a clarification is needed.
Common Sense coming SOON*TM |
Lartaris
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:36:00 -
[258]
Quote: Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
I'm confused at this, if i have an Eve Online affiliate program account, do i still need a commercial license?
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Durin Sarga
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:36:00 -
[259]
Forget just 3rd party developers going on strike. That's too small of a scope I think.
I say we all stock up our POSs, maximize our learning queues, and take a 20-day haiatus from EVE.
Why?
Because in the last 3-months (aside from yesterday's moment of brilliance) CCP has shown that they do not understand what makes EVE, EVE. Micro-transactions? Incarna instead of iteration? DUST514 before EVE? Ships for $$? and now the mother of all...
Charging for a fan's labor of love to the EVE community???!!!
There's an old saying CCP,"When mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy!" In EVE this saying gets modified as follows:
"If Chribba ain't happy, ain't nobody happy"
And guess what? Chribba ain't happy. End of story.
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Zachstar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:36:00 -
[260]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
Clarification isn't going to do it. You said POINT BLANK that ad and donation supported websites will require a paid license. What is needed is an apology from CCP marketing and financial and a promise to ask the community before making changes like this.
We would have told you point blank that we do not want Ad and donation supported sites to have to pay a fee ONLY those that point blank require a fee or isk to use.
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:37:00 -
[261]
Why all the fuss? It does say in the press release that non-commercial sites get a free license.
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CCP Atlas
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:37:00 -
[262]
So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
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Phoenus
Caldari Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:37:00 -
[263]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
Here comes the backpeddaling.
Let me guess, it was a 'misinterpretation' - like the Microtransaction mistake yesterday?
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:38:00 -
[264]
Originally by: AtheistOfFail Recommend community to disable all 3rd Party sites for 24 hours in protest to these unwarranted changes.
You got my vote, AoF!
Hahaha!
First CCP rejected free advice, now they reject free coding time.
CCP excellency is strong in this one!
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GKO
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:38:00 -
[265]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
Yeah, finish some devblogs regarding failing captains quarters first. This thread will wait until tomorrow.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:39:00 -
[266]
A few questions.
- Our alliance website offers an "authentication" feature which uses the API. It's meant to be used only by alliance members and allies. Do I need a "free license" for this? - We have a windows application which is downloadable only by alliance members, but could of course in theory be used by everyone. Do I need a "free license" for this? - If we use Shattered Crystal's support program that gives us money for GTCs we buy, do I need a commercial license for this?
I'd be very, very careful with what you are doing there. EVE is a very unique game in what it offers to all the programming geeks out there. While $8.25 a month is not a lot of money, it is enough money to dissuade anyone who thought he'd write something that sounded fun and just wanted some ISK donations for their effort.
If you just drop ISK donations from the list that requires the commercial license, you'd come a long way towards the geeks who make your game so much better than it is already.
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Valemora
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:40:00 -
[267]
Edited by: Valemora on 15/06/2011 19:40:52
Originally by: CCP Atlas
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
This would Quench some of the rage, if it excluded isk, however if putting Ad's on a website count, its still not going to work. |
salty Milk
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:41:00 -
[268]
What do you think people will pay for that isn't free already?
oh wait... Dust.... Incarna....
I think I understand now....
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Aquana Abyss
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:41:00 -
[269]
Whats with the great big money grab CCP?
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:41:00 -
[270]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
I see. "This thread" needs it.
Once again it's arrogance not excellency you're delivering towards your customers.
Well done!
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Optional Patch
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:42:00 -
[271]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
This is where the bull**** comes in. If you need to charge to justify the service and developers have the option of a non-commercial license then something doesn't add up.
You provide the service to foster the grassroots community. It's a cost of doing business, call it marketing. If you charge anything other than a one-time nominal fee you will most likely see a decline in developer support.
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Lei Kuha
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:43:00 -
[272]
If this goes through it will kill off most of the eve community sites and therefore kill off eve in my opinion... Cant prove it yet because their isnt any evidence but that is whats going to happen because people do not want to pay for something that has been free for so long.
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woddel
Gallente Canis Industries Ltd Avaricious Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:43:00 -
[273]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
well, i saved the original dev blog. i really wonder what you will 'clarify' by changing your dumbfolded (sorry for the expression) idea. just admit that you fxxxed up and will rewrite the whole thing with actually some thought put into it... be true to yourself and us !! the only and most important thing we ask from you.
woddel --- creator and maintainer of eve commander - complete web based character information tool and ec agent finder |
Alizebeth Bequinn
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 -
[274]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
If it's not about making money and it'n not gonna make a big difference to your balance sheet then why not SUBSIDIZE THE FEE? HELL I GOT A GREAT IDEA! Why put a fee in the first place?
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 -
[275]
JUST YOU WAIT TILL LADY SPANK GETS HERE.
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Ciar Meara on 15/06/2011 19:44:52
Originally by: Phoenus
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
Here comes the backpeddaling.
Let me guess, it was a 'misinterpretation' - like the Microtransaction mistake yesterday?
Hey Phoenus! Long time! Yeah the backpeddaling is epic this week.
I seriously think ccp need to rethink who runs the departements there and lay of the fermented sharkfin a bit.
You just don't launch this thing this way, and making Chribba mad... well thats just uncalled far.
------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
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Reten Kip
Everset Dropbears
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:44:00 -
[277]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Yeah right. Show me one example of something you put into the game that was significantly different than the devblog that came out about it before hand.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
Bull. ****. The lowest you can go is $0. I don't believe that it costs you anything significant. Show me the accounting sheets.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
See reply number one. Based on your history, this is already done and finalized with only minor tweaks to come.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
When have you ever listened to your player base in the last two years? Why would I want to develop anything that helps your game when you're going to charge me for it?
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Abinadi9
NerdHerd Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:45:00 -
[278]
Originally by: CCP Atlas I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
1) Maybe Biz Dev should actually play Eve. That might help.
2) How would you police this? If I use ... mining buddy on a third party website and isk is exchanged, are you now filtering my web traffic?
Originally by: CCP Atlas 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
What does this actually mean? You have to charge something for it? Why charge at all if it isn't about making money? Why not $29? You like Apple's moves for development, how about $29, or I don't know... i already pay for FOUR ACCOUNTS MONTHLY.....
Originally by: CCP Atlas 4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Then stop the train before it heads off the cliff. It's not tricky, I want to see 1 "company" besides hosting companies & RMT that might begin to make money off of the eve plays.
Originally by: CCP Atlas Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Constructive Feedback: Build a developer community, start listening to them, features they need, then maybe you can start thinking about charging for a service. As off now it's incomplete and unsupported. Just a big "go frak yourself" move by some dweeb in "Biz Dev".
Originally by: CCP Atlas Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Again... stop listening to "Biz Dev"... have them start developing and putting their time into things for free before they consider changing the game.
To everyone else....
The day this crap becomes official, is the day we should pull down ALL 3rd party pages.... Eve community wouldn't like that too much at all, and CCP will be to blame.
This is stupid. Not hate by the way, just people who ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND GIVE THEIR FREE TIME TO MAKE YOUR PROFITS INCREASE. "Biz dev" needs to wake up.
Abinadi9
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iLight YourFire
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:45:00 -
[279]
Originally by: CCP Atlas (...) stuff blaming biz dev (...)
Business Development is doing a great job: Business Destruction. If you want to develop your business that way, better convert CCP corporate capital to PLEX, buy a shuttle and undock in Jita. Faster, easier and less painfull.
First let your bizdev department look at API usage, and really analyze the tooling before they write stuff like this...
Very disappointed...
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Lazarus Vex
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:46:00 -
[280]
Will people who don't charge for applications need to pay as well?
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:46:00 -
[281]
Shouldn't CCP pay us for game mechanics, content and features that are either a) broken b) not wanted c) poorly-considered ideas like this one?
Seems only fair.
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
Mitchello
B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:48:00 -
[282]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Please do not take this the wrong way, but this syndrome of "don't hate the player, hate the lolcustomer" really has to stop. We're at a point where the visible divide between perspectives is so stretched that it is becoming too hard to see whether there is a troll, a disconnect, or a misunderstanding in statement or reception =/
"9 pages of hate" ?
Is that how it is seen, or spoken of? It would not be the first time, truth be told we know it is a popular thing. I trust this was just a case of misunderstanding in use of language. I am honestly willing to take it as that, but please, it is just getting way too easy for masses who care to not have or take the time to do the same.
The key to EVE is the emotional connect that people make, to overcompensate in behaviour for the distance between pixels and people behind them. It should never come as a surprise that emotion is as such an element in communication.
Yes, that can go too far. But that is where CCP is fearless. If it goes too far, just say it, correct people, deal with it. But do not dismiss its origins, its perspectives or its message.
You know, just saying, CCP and Customers, we're all people.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
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noise
Minmatar m3 Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:48:00 -
[283]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Thanks for the reply! I hope that the $99 for ISK is changed.
If we keep the $99 for ad supported website then we might have some more decent looking sites that aren't plastered with ads! ---------------------------- -It's a big rock. Can't wait to tell my friends. They don't have a rock this big.
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El Geo
Group 2
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:49:00 -
[284]
+1 |
Hiryu Jin
noXCorp Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:49:00 -
[285]
why is CCP trying so hard to drive this game into the ground?
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:50:00 -
[286]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
What the **** did you expect?!? _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:50:00 -
[287]
Originally by: CCP Atlas our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE
If that's your aim there's one rule to follow:
Create robust well documented APIs for people to use.
But so far you haven't been good at that which might lead to the logical conclusion you're either incapable of doing so or a liar.
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Mintchip
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 -
[288]
I think what would be most appreciated in a future explanation - would be the purpose of this? The motives for CCP wanting control on these things? I'd like to know what the whole point is - what CCP stands to gain, and what we as a community stand to gain. What does this ACTUALLY give us - explain better why this is "awesome news".
Why was this necessary? Was there some legality issues arising? If you can explain any of this, it would be read feverishly!
xoxo Mintchip
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Adunh Slavy
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 -
[289]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
What service? What exists now that did not exist yesterday? Someone being able to charge for something, for donations, for ads from yet another 3rd party? That already existed. You are not selling anything, this is a fee.
It's bad enough that you want a fee, but to try and spin it as some sort of value-add proposition is insulting.
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Abinadi9
NerdHerd Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 -
[290]
The more I think about this it's all about RMT....
You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....
It's not hate, it's RAGE. Rage at the stupid people in "BIZ DEV" .... There is no business to develop .... stop with AUR.... stop screwing with the game.... just FIX THE BROKE STUFF.... and by the way, 0.0 isn't broken....
I have a feature list that BIZ DEV might think about....
More APIs Developer support New content such as T3 ships instead of pink bunnies on a scorpion......
Abinadi9
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cerbus
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:51:00 -
[291]
I do feel for the people at CCP sometimes, they are infact Human.
but still...
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Hiryu Jin why is CCP trying so hard to drive this game into the ground?
Because CCP is trying break into what they perceive as the lucrative console market by leveraging their very nerd-driven IP.
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
thedeathmanschest
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 -
[293]
Quote: So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
really man what did you expect? YOu are talking currently about killing a lot of development which actually enrich your game.... I think i go back playing Hello Kittie Online....
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GKO
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 -
[294]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Hell yeah, 9 pages of hate out of 1 page of your bull****. This is higher than average. Think about it. What could that mean?
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Kerrisone
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 19:53:00 -
[295]
Here's more feedback there should be a commercial license for apps and one for websites. Apps that are sold for real money might have a different price than apps that are free but accept donations, ie $20-50 compared to $5-10. The point being if you develop an app that is 'great' and likely to succeed, developer's opinion, you go for the license that costs more and gives you the opportunity to make money.
Websites that accept voluntary donations or use ads to offset costs for free to player content shouldn't need to pay for a license *IF* they do it should be cheap $5-10 or less. Websites that charge players to use them should pay more maybe $20-50 or $99.
The point being what the 'product' is, how it is distributed/access is granted to players, etc.
I still think if the cost per license isn't important than it should be much much cheaper, even cheaper than I've cited if it really doesn't matter to CCP.
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Niraia
Zaratha Zarati Aggravated Assault..
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 -
[296]
"The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement."
Don't you think that releasing the final would've made more sense?
Further, since your "bizdev" department has little idea of what motivates the EVE third party development community, could someone with a clue (and a whip) maybe sit in on their meetings where bull**** like this is decided upon?
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Ovidia Rhianon
Caldari Mining and Industrial Services Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Zachstar Clarification isn't going to do it. You said POINT BLANK that ad and donation supported websites will require a paid license. What is needed is an apology from CCP marketing and financial and a promise to ask the community before making changes like this.
We would have told you point blank that we do not want Ad and donation supported sites to have to pay a fee ONLY those that point blank require a fee or isk to use.
Please point me to the one person that said those that point blank require you to pay ISK should be charged an out of game fee?
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Abinadi9
NerdHerd Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 -
[298]
Originally by: CCP Atlas HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
No... it is frustration due to the arrogance and stupidity displayed by CCP.
Learn the difference.
Abinadi9
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 -
[299]
Originally by: woddel
Originally by: Joe SMASH As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.
i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com...
--------------------------
I am in with the following:
Here is the list of open to everyone services that I will have to shutdown
EvE Emergency Trust PLEX Charity initiative when RL disasters happen (featured on Fanfest 2011 videos, donated > $4000 to Japanese) Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Technical Analysis (finance) Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Public Audits Archive (Market Discussion investments)
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Public Investmens Records (Market Discussion investments)
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Charting Service Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
NEISIN free app Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Income Analyzer (trading / sales analysis graphs and statistics)
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Dsan
Nomads Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:54:00 -
[300]
CCP Hellweek ?
First the lulzsec attack Tuesday, community **** off wedensday.
Good news soon ?
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:55:00 -
[301]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
I think you misspelled valuable customer feedback there...
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:56:00 -
[302]
First of all biz dev departments needs to be on the first exploration ship to populate unknown space.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
My suggestion is to give support to 3rd party developers who do it out of pure enthusiasm. One type of support could be well documented and maintained API access. Those people are providing a service for you, its not the other way around.
I doubt you will see a sprawling industry based on commercial 3rd party applications. There may be a few that make it, but I think you may end up crushing the hobbyists in the process. I don't think that would be a good tradeoff. I know that bizdevs and lawyers don't understand the concept of idealism and doing things for free, but it happens all the time in the world of gaming and software.
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Akira Zendragon
EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:56:00 -
[303]
So $99 covers what costs, exactly? The API is already there and free. (And without warranties...)
Identity verification would be a one-time thing. I can't really get what other "service costs" you mean.
Unless of course you mean the API, in which case I think at least a minimum level of support and warranties would be in order.
Look at Apple's iOS developer program. For $99/yr Apple gives you development tools and SDKs, tons of documentation and sample code (free, actually), some tech support and they'll host the downloads for your app, and so on...
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:56:00 -
[304]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Why do you even think you HAVE a CSM?
Seriously, have you guys not learned your lesson yet? I'll spell it out for you in short 1-syllable words, real simple, just for you:
DOES YOUR GREAT IDEA DIRECTLY DO STUFF TO EVE PLAYERS?
RUN YOUR GREAT IDEA PAST THE CSM.
IF THEY SAY THAT THERE WILL BE RAGE THEN IT COULD BE THAT YOUR IDEA IS VERY BAD AND YOU SHOULD FIX IT.
THE CSM WILL HELP YOU FIX YOUR BAD IDEA.
THEN YOUR BAD IDEA WILL BE LESS BAD OR IT MIGHT EVEN BE GOOD WHO KNOWS?
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Emilya Tatsuki
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 -
[305]
Originally by: Abinadi9 The more I think about this it's all about RMT....
You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....
This is exactly what it is. Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 -
[306]
Edited by: MailDeadDrop on 15/06/2011 20:00:30
Originally by: CCP Atlas Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity.
Tell "Biz Dev" to get off their lazy asses and come face the fire directly. It is unreasonable for you to take the community backlash for their statements, and inefficient to have you serve as a middleman.
Edit: After reading Malcanis' reply (above), I'd like to revise my statement. Have "Biz Dev" get off their lazy asses and run their ideas past CSM. Any ideas that make it past the CSM are good candidates for a blog.
Seriously, the dev blog should *NOT* be a "this is a work in progress" -- that's why the CSM exists!
MDD
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iLLeLogicaL
The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:57:00 -
[307]
What the **** is this ****... First walking in stations and now this? CCP, ffs look at what you're doing to your game.
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Mother Fokker
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 -
[308]
In 8 years of EvE online has CCP EVER brought out some brochure that even remotely resambles a manual?
NO.
Yet a Hungarrian guy and his team make a booklet named ISK_## and it beats the living crαp out of any other manual for games i ever laid my eyes on. (Falcon 4.0 included, and that is a feat.)
Has CCP done that?
NO.
It was done by one of our best members of EvE community. If you had this silly idea 4 years ago this man-team would never most probably had taken the effords to make it.
Really now. Charging others for having the privvilege for working For you?
CCP.
Stay the hεll far from volcanic Ashh. It is BAD for your brain cells.
CHeers to all.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 -
[309]
CCP needs to hire a PR Consultant.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 -
[310]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Abinadi9 The more I think about this it's all about RMT....
You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....
This is exactly what it is. Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Joe SMASH
You Got A Purty Mouth
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:58:00 -
[311]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Originally by: woddel
Originally by: Joe SMASH As a show of force that most 3rd party devs do NOT like this rule. I think we should figure out a day where all Eve Online 3rd party sites get taken offline. This will show the community what it will be like if CCP gets this in place. For those 24 hours, the Eve community (voted best in the MMO world!) goes quiet and CCP will (hopefully) begin to see their many mistakes with this new set of rules.
i'm in with www.eve-commander.com and agents.eve-commander.com...
--------------------------
I am in with the following:
Here is the list of open to everyone services that I will have to shutdown
EvE Emergency Trust PLEX Charity initiative when RL disasters happen (featured on Fanfest 2011 videos, donated > $4000 to Japanese) Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Technical Analysis (finance) Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Public Audits Archive (Market Discussion investments)
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Public Investmens Records (Market Discussion investments)
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Charting Service Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
NEISIN free app Official EvE thread
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
EvE Income Analyzer (trading / sales analysis graphs and statistics)
Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site
Awesome! -----------------------------------
More stuff goes here. |
Dracnys
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:59:00 -
[312]
Edited by: Dracnys on 15/06/2011 20:03:45 This is how I read the devblog:
Quote: CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog.
Great CCP, what's your great news? *Click on Link* A wall of text with the headline "Monetizing 3rd Party Apps". Ok I have no idea what you mean with this. Do you want to make money or do you think 3rd party developers can earn money?
Quote: tr.v. mon+e+tized, mon+e+tiz+ing, mon+e+tiz+es To establish as legal tender. To coin (money). To convert (government debt) from securities into currency that can be used to purchase goods and services. Cha-Ching.
Wow now I know what monetizing means, thanks a lot. Now, who is this guy thinking cha-ching?
Quote: Starting this summer you will be able to charge people for usage of your applications, websites and services for EVE Online.
Who would want to do that? I certainly don't want to pay for 3rd party apps. Download that new market order software? 5 Dollars. Update character in your skill-plan app? 0.50 Dollars. Now this won't happen because the people developing the software don't do it to earn money but because they like helping the community and I highly doubt that many would pay for a service or app.
Quote: Highlights
Simple process - Sign up on a webpage, get started straight away Inexpensive - $99 per year, no other fees Developer-friendly - Very few restrictions Open-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
Highlights. Highlights of what? Is anything of this any good? Is there any value provided by CCP? 99 Dollars per year for what? For getting permission to charge somebody for 3rd party services? CCP was developer friendly before, we know that. But that's no highlight, that's just doing nothing. Why is it an advantage if non-commercial websites and apps require a free license?
Quote: Rules and rights but nothing new except charging for permission to charge RL money.
So where is the value that you provide? Continue searching.
Quote: Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license? No, (...)
At least this.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license. Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
HOLY CRAP! Does this mean that everyone who asks for donations or puts ads on the website has to pay? For the great ability to charge RL money for their services which they won't because of the reasons mentioned above? So this does really mean that people that work their ass of to improve the game for all players are CHARGED to do so? CCP, is that you? The company that lives off a game which is mostly played because of its great community? You DO realize that this is what makes EVE, right? That the sandbox doesn't end with the game but is extended all over the internet?
Quote: Why charge for the license at all?
That's my question. Better have a good answer.
Quote: The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant. We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee is low enough to not dissuade serious developers from participating in the program.
Why does it cost 99 Dollars to note a name? This is zero value.
Quote: I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about in the discussion thread. :-)
Yes we have.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 19:59:00 -
[313]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 15/06/2011 20:02:31
Originally by: Mitchello
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
"9 pages of hate" ?
Is that how it is seen, or spoken of?
CCP excellency is unfailable! Godlike by design!
P.S.: Didn't CCP fail to deliver services due to getting DDOSed or the like? And the same day they go public arguing about CHARGING people even more for unreliable services??? |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:00:00 -
[314]
CCP, why do you even bother having feedback threads?
Seriously, why do you even bother, when you know, and we know, and you know that we know you're going to push ahead with it anyway? You ignored the people who told you factional warfare needed to be fixed. You ignored the opinions of players who told you race-locking art assets such as clothing and hairstyles in Carbon was a terrible idea. You ignored four-fifths of your consumer base who don't want microtransactions.
How in the hell do you expect us to believe you'll give a damn about what we say in this thread? ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Salene Gralois
K-2
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:00:00 -
[315]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Really? No obstacles? Then fire the damn biz dev. A new level of stupid has been reached. Congratulations.
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Swren1
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:01:00 -
[316]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog. Read all about the new business license and monetizing 3rd party apps
It's crap, stop waisting time for this and focus on what people actually want. That will make you more money in the end.
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Ballface
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:01:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I'll just leave this here =)
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:02:00 -
[318]
You guys over there at CCP are seriously mentally impaired.
Seriously.
SERIOUSLY.
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J Kunjeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:02:00 -
[319]
Thanks for the response CCP Atlas. It sounds like you're all taking this feedback seriously and are willing to make changes as necessary. Unlike the other whiners on here who'll cry no matter what you guys say, I for one appreciate the willingness to change your trajectory on some of the issues with this proposal. ~Gnosis~ |
Emilya Tatsuki
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:03:00 -
[320]
Edited by: Emilya Tatsuki on 15/06/2011 20:05:01
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Abinadi9 The more I think about this it's all about RMT....
You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....
This is exactly what it is. Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase. and even one thousand people its 99,000. thats maybe 2 peoples salaries? if that.
I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION) but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:03:00 -
[321]
IMO, CCP should be paying anyone that hosts a website or blog that practically endorses EVE because it is basically free advertising that CCP (and EVE) is getting.
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
Silvery Delight
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:04:00 -
[322]
Edited by: Silvery Delight on 15/06/2011 20:05:18 Well, i'm happy they posted this dev blog. While i ****ing hate this ****ing stupid idea and hope it diaf for even thinking of this after 7-8 years of not-perfect but FREE API access, they've just made the decision to cancel my accounts for me ;D
I dislike the idea of dust on the ps3.I certainly didn't like the ships for cash idea, but i could of ignored it. But this? Charging people who actually improve your game more than you do it, you ****ing idiots, is ****ing stupid and while i love eve, i hope it goes down at is now. Why? So they can go down in history as the idiots who ruined a great game and forever be branded moneyhungry asshats.
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Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:04:00 -
[323]
Originally by: CCP Atlas S... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate! ...
More like utter disgust as well as some valid points made for why this initiative is absurd.
Do not denigrate your customers by summarizing their lucid and well-thought out comments into a simple emotional state.
Originally by: Higgs Bison How will EVE be affected if Dust is a flop?
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Dsan
Nomads Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:04:00 -
[324]
WAIT!
So I can get this license, pay 99$ a year plus eve subscription and play my game as I like ? Charging for stuff ingame, and host corp forums and such ?
Then when I wanna use evemon and other stuff I just have to pay them aswell, for their license...
Yeah, this sounds awesome.
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Mitchello
B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:05:00 -
[325]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Please do not take this the wrong way, or personal, that is not how it is intended.
It is not very smart to say the least, to "dump" an announcement to any userbase without having made sure that you know what reception is going to be like.
A topic as sensitive as this, which you (CCP "the company") should instinctively realise and communicate on, should never be treated as an experiment.
There is a very simple reason for this. You sell a service. Your core currencies are those of belief and trust. When you do these things, you violate those currencies and deplete their reservoirs among user group types.
It does not take a genius to see how that is bad. You sell and keep on the basis primarily of that, no matter how much shiny is added on top, this is what doing business comes down to. Period.
If you cannot guarantee that you can stimulate, motivate, or guide reception and adoption, you should never take any step which compromises those two currencies. Ever. Period.
If you sold soup in a supermarket, you could get away with that indefinately. But you are selling a service model. What you do and say, is carried along forever. The specifics will be forgotten over time, but the sentiments and memories carry on, far outside existing userbases. In these days of social networking, transient media, and distributed communities you must never forget that the word of mouth that is your instrument, which grew your product, is not by definition the same as the concept of "drama sells" or "there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Why? You said it yourselves. EVE is real. It's so real, that it is life. It is an experience. When word of mouth reaches that treshold where it overshadows your own messaging (let's be honest, even if you hired half the gaming and advertising industry you would not be able to compete with the concept of social and other networking) you have a problem. Not just for EVE, but for the integrity of your brand.
Which, I am sure you are aware of, is what the currency of your enterprise is in capital and prospects.
So really, don't do these things. Just don't.
And please do not ever again (see CCP Zinfandel) experiment like this. Regardless of whether that was intended or not, perception defines reality so intention matters a lot less than the consequences. Taking the angle of "we wanted to get feedback" is wrong here. It does not match your presentation of the devblog, period. It is also the wrong angle for damage control, or even open communications.
Besides, you have a CSM, who heard nothing of you on this, if you really sought feedback. Ok fine, this CSM is not representative for the userbases of EVE, that is a shame, but so be it. But even then you have tools at your disposal. Live devblog, surveys, do a questionaire in the development section on these forums (or rather, since they are no longer representative for the actual eve community start passing word there to reach third party developers).
Sorry guys, the roundtable at fanfest, it touched quite specifically and constructively on the very issues that were put on the table in this blog as the next "stone tablet".
Please, this is not some personal playground anymore. You have an enormous potential here. But stop getting in your own way each time.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:05:00 -
[326]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Abinadi9 The more I think about this it's all about RMT....
You can have ISK if you pay cash for it....
This is exactly what it is. Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION) but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:05:00 -
[327]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 15/06/2011 20:06:03
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
i'll try to be calm and constructive:
- It's not fair to lump in developers who provide 'free' services and ask for donations/use ads with people who are outright charging for them. I'm cool with you guys charging $99 to some guy who is selling his skilltraining iphone app for $5. I'm not cool with people like Chribba, the dotlan guys, etc being charged because they have a donate button. It would push them to either not accept any donations (which is stupid), or force them to start charging RL cash for access to all their services (which is also stupid)
-services which are isk-only shouldn't be charged anything at all. _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
Optional Patch
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 -
[328]
First of all, let's clarify that this is not about the money for CCP. MT: Yes, This fiasco: No.
Some suggestions
1. Free development license: allows you to develop your service/website/app or deploy a non-profit version. 2. Nominal fee for ad-supported websites and services: One time $10 or $20. Developers who join will be listed on an "official" eve-hosted list of sites - give a little something back to the developer 3. "Whatever bizdev decides" fee for subscription apps/services: Honestly I don't see the point, but separating a pay-to-use app or service from the average website will inoculate CCP from some of the backlash.
Finally, please no more bull**** about how much it costs to support the service. We love to see the APIs and Static data dumps, it's why we develop services for EVE. If you don't like it shut them down.
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Zachstar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 -
[329]
Your Bizdev team needs to have a long talk with admin. How could you all NOT EXPECT so much backlash from such as stupid idea. Was it when main addon devs spoke out where something clicked saying "Well golly gee maybe getting virtually nonprofit support sites to pay up isn't the best thing in the world as far as relationship with our customers?"
When a part of your company is doing serious damage to another part that is when the meetings on their skill and or termination of employment needs to happen. This isn't a damn fan game it is a commercial game that requires good relationships with customers in order to survive. If they can't handle that they need to go home or get another job.
You change NOTHING with the current system and ONLY start allowing those who WANT to make nonstandard profit to do so. Virtually none will anyway.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 -
[330]
:excellence:
"going to be awesome"
"18 months"
"give us money"
|
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:06:00 -
[331]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
For the sake of the future of eve I hope you expected at least a more muted version of this response.
Quote:
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
It sounds like your "bizdev" department knows nothing about the game except figuring out how to maximize the amount of money squeezed from players.
Quote:
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
I'm sure your "bizdev" department has considered the hundreds of tools and thousands of developers who this potentially impacts. Working from a stupid unrealistic perspective that people want to pay to develop their tools to play eve, you have 1000 developers(given the number of corps and alliances and huge number of tools out there, this number is probably low) paying $100 a year. Well, 100k a year isn't huge but it's all free money.
Quote:
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
No. It's not tricky at all. There is no need whatsoever for any of the licensing bull****.
Quote:
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
This is why you're introducing a $100 a year obstacle in front of virtually every person developing anything eve related, while at the same time promising to provide no documentation, technical support, or even a working API. The entire purpose of the dev blog is summed up in it's title.
Monetizing 3rd Party Apps
You're not helping 3rd party developers monetize their applications, you're trying to monetize other peoples work.
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Silicon Sailor
Northgate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:07:00 -
[332]
Wow, you managed to **** off Chribba
<sarcasm>Well done CCP.</sarcasm>
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Liang Nuren
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:08:00 -
[333]
Originally by: CCP Atlas that's a legal slippery slope
This is why you need to abandon this altogether. Its a huge can of worms that's going to very quickly turn into a gorgon and kill us all. :-/ -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Sorakage
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:09:00 -
[334]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
I see this as proof that you are all disconnected from reality. This is rage? CCP CEO tweeting that we are whining? You have fallen in the category of despicable people who have forgotten from where they started.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Just for the fact that they thought this up they deserve to be fired. They have no contact with reality. This is not *draft* as even CCP CEO tweeted that we were *whining* to their plans to ... **** eve ? Do they know that they would not have the job they have if it was not for 3rd party people ? Your game is that ****ty that it would not be where it is without community support sites.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
NOWHERE did you state this *might be revised* fail backpedaling and crisis management.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
I see it perfectly sensible to charge a fee for those who would make RL money out of it on a app-store. And thats it
Originally by: CCP Atlas
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Thats what you people always say. Until now I was neutral with all the **** you did but I am not joking that I will quite EVE if this happens.
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
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Vidar Kentoran
Minmatar Eighty Joule Brewery
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:09:00 -
[335]
Charging money for nothing other than dropping a license restriction that literally no one cares about anyway and that you cannot enforce in any meaningful capacity is pointless.
Everyone will ignore this program and you will be powerless to do anything about it. No one is interested in paying CCP $99/yr so that they can continue running their website that you have no capability whatsoever to shut down in the first place.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators Chubby Chuppers Chubba Chups
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:10:00 -
[336]
ANNOUNCING LE SKUNKS LATEST THRID PARTY AP
For only 200 dollars, Le Skunk will review your Eve-O forum post and tell you the likelhood of a community rage response.
Discount to CCP staff members of 15% (o)
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Velicitia
Open Designs
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:10:00 -
[337]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
QFT
Guess you're gonna have to get your veldspar tattoo removed mate (and/or get the license info tattooed on your other arm...)
WTF CCP!!!????
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Emilya Tatsuki
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:11:00 -
[338]
This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION) but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.
How dare a business want money. And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.
They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it. The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
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Ghoest
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:13:00 -
[339]
I dont even use apps or anthing that requires my API and I think CCP is being greedy pigs.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:13:00 -
[340]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
[/b]
By that you mean "they have the lack of business acumen to try and implement something that makes the people who support their game with services they themselves are too incompetent to implement run away screaming" right?
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Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 -
[341]
How hard is it to understand that you guys can prevent 99% of the PR ****storms just by asking the CSM first?
Why didn't you ask them first? Are you intentionally trying to make your customers mad and thinking about unsubbing?
HOW HARD IS IT TO ASK THE CSM FIRST? They have learned about this at the exact same time we did. ____________________________________________
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Brokers Clone
Amarr Northgate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 -
[342]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
What the **** did you expect?!?
By now? I expected 20 pages....
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 -
[343]
CCP Atlas, do the smart thing: delete the devblog, delete this thread, and tell BizDev to delete this idea and to never, ever again do such an astoundingly dumb thing and try and make you take the fall for it again.
Do this now and we shall never speak of this again.
That's the deal.
Otherwise we will - and this is a promise - speak of this endlessly, everywhere, to everyone. I hope you enjoyed all those "best community" awards, because if you don't follow my advice, you'll never get another one ever again.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:14:00 -
[344]
Well, I agree with most of the posters here. Fansite thats are simply that and not hugely complex sites should probably retain the current fansite agreement in all fairness or a comparable non-commercial simalcrum.
The reception of ISK = commercial is something that I would question, not that anyone has ever given me any ISK. Mean gits. However it is very clear that this is an area of concern.
Generally though, I think people should also raise their awareness and acknowledge there are sites that do not engage with the fansite program and that's because they want to continue with unfettered advertising. By unfettered, I mean they have ISK selling ads on them, go have a look. Many will be (and are) upset at this for varying reasons so don't get too worked up.
In the cases of EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server users, a commercial charge is being requested here and a by association a requirement to clean the ads, but again the fee is something to be looked at I think. Looking at the wording in the OP and update, it looks like the fee idea is here to stay but there is movement on the amount. Perhaps then a tiered approach?
Tier 1: Sites that use Eve API for auth only - free Tier 2: Sites using all other services - nominal fee Tier 3: Sites that charge cash for services larger fee
Not the full solution to be sure but a germ of an idea.
It may have already been said but this catch all line: "EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server" also affects corp/alliance sites that require API authentication and clearly they are non-commercial.
Overall, I really do welcome the intent of this initiative but really think that a little more thought should have gone into it to save the pain. At what level were the CSM involved in this by the way?
Starfleet Comms Podcast Your journey through the Eve Universe! |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:15:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Originally by: Blane Xero Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.
How dare a business want money. And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.
They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it. The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
The reason CCP has been successful thus far, as in, up until now with Eve, is because they have developed Eve as a game with the main focus being on creating the universe and making it good. Now, their focus is shifting more and more from developing a game to making money. CCP prides itself on not charging for expansions, and now all this bull****? hypocritical much?
_____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Innominate
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:16:00 -
[346]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
If you consider the number of people who WOULD pay it, you're completely right. If you consider the number of people that would have to pay it to continue what they're doing you're off by a couple orders of magnitude and the dollar amount becomes meaningful. (i.e. If you throw in an unrealistic expectation of the number of people willing to pay it)
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Selnix
Gallente North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:16:00 -
[347]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Just a thought... If there weren't gaping holes in your game, maybe there wouldn't be all of these 3rd party programs to begin with. How about a small list of 3rd party apps which are completely free to use which don't have a viable counterpart in-game that could be adversely affected by this crap...
- Jump Planners - Have fun figuring out what systems are in range or what a nice route may be using only in-game mechanics
- EFT - Have fun buying one of everything just so you can find out what fits will fit whilst still not knowing how decent the tank may be or how much dps you will do
- EVEMON - Please enjoy planning out your skills a day at a time
- Corp/Alliance/Battleclinic Killboards - To all of the ***gots who have whined about killboards ruining their happy little carebear existance, I guess this one is a good one
I'm sure there are plenty of others which people find invaluable to them to make a broken game playable but I thought I'd just stick with the highlights. If you don't plan to add some functionality to your game, perhaps you shouldn't hinder the progress of those who want to do so.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 -
[348]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino How hard is it to understand that you guys can prevent 99% of the PR ****storms just by asking the CSM first?
Your statement implies that you believe CCP cares about customer opinion or genuinely takes the CSM seriously.
With due respect, lolno. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Emilya Tatsuki
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 -
[349]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
By that you mean "they have the lack of business acumen to try and implement something that makes the people who support their game with services they themselves are too incompetent to implement run away screaming" right?
No, actually I don't
Maybe if you step off the bandwagon and actually read what I posted and think about it, you would see that.[/b]
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Valdamerca
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Also reading Monetizing Your Apps and Services describes it perfectly. It is YOU who are getting the $ not the community. Honestly you should give the 3rd party developers the 99$.
And your damage control post about "Biz Dev" does not impress.
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Levarr Burton
B0rthole Test Alliance Please Ignore
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 -
[351]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Okay, going to go through this point by point. 1.This change was, in no way, represented as a "first draft" until you said it was in this post. The change was introduced as "starting this summer," which, by the way, means in the next 7 days to 3ish months. Hardly a time-frame, or wording, consistent with a change of this magnitude being a "first draft."
2. Nothing much to say about this, except that requiring a real-money commercial license when the product cannot, under the EULA, be redeemed for real-money is pants-on-head ******ed, as no commercial profit is being made. It forces the developer to begin charging real money just to cover the costs of the license.
3. This statement is inconsistent. You say that "This project is not about CCP making money" but also that "$99 is the lowest that we estimated...could reasonably go." Which is it? Is this a for-profit venture on CCP's part? Or, is this a "lowest possible cost" licensing venture?
4.Yes, it is tricky to allow ventures that generate real-money income and which use your IP, without a formal licensing arrangement. However, as you have stated that the primary goal of this project is NOT to improve CCP's balance sheet, but rather to protect the IP; it should be no issue to provide this licensing at a negligible (to the poor developer) cost. If your motive is to empower the 3rd party developer, while maintaining the sanctity of your IP, this can be accomplished even with a $1/year licensing fee. By imposing the higher, almost punitive, fee, you force developers who would otherwise provide a free, or for-donation, service to monetize, passing more cost on to the end-user (who already pays money to play this game). In ur engineering, fixin' ur warp core. |
Agora Phobic
Gallente Pinnacle Endeavors
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 -
[352]
Where are the CSM? The blog doesn't mention that they were told about this.
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Zamiq
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:17:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda My understanding might be completely wrong but from what im reading you only need the license and only have to pay ccp if you plan on charging people for the 3rd party service.
Ie sites that run on donations or offer their services for free do not need a license and do not have to pay the $99 fee...
At least i think this is what all this means :S (please please please correct me if i am wrong)
You are correct, however this will also apply to ad-supported website that use CCP's API. So while there will still be a number of free to use 3rd party apps, it will be more difficult for the app developer to recoup some of the cost associated with hosting such an app. Providing a support website with bug tracking, suggestions and comments is going to be even more difficult.
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Ghoest
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:18:00 -
[354]
Also if your guild forum uses ads and has an open public section you will be required to pay $100
Thats absurd.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Morphisat
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:18:00 -
[355]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
I see your nose growing all of a sudden .
Quote:
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Then why start this to begin with ?
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 -
[356]
Originally by: Max Torps At what level were the CSM involved in this by the way?
HURR DURR WE ARE SO AWESOME AND WE HAVE AWESOME IDEAS WE DO NOT NEED LOLPLAYERS TO TELL US OUR HURR DURR IDEAS ARE AWESOME
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Kerrisone
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 -
[357]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION) but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.
How dare a business want money. And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.
They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it. The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
How about when they kill the license program and no one is allowed to continue their service or support of the products they've made? Yet CCP has information on what those programs did, basically able to make it themselves as everyone HAS to 'register' their product with them? CCP might be 'nice' and buy them out for a pittance but they don't have to. So CCP takes over those services and charges extra, or maybe AURUM payment only.
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Nardman
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 -
[358]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb. THIS IS DOMINION! |
Don Pellegrino
Pod Liberation Authority HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:19:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Don Pellegrino How hard is it to understand that you guys can prevent 99% of the PR ****storms just by asking the CSM first?
Your statement implies that you believe CCP cares about customer opinion or genuinely takes the CSM seriously.
With due respect, lolno.
My statement doesn't imply that they take the CSM seriously. Actually, it urges them to start taking it seriously. It's a huge PR tool for them to use.
However, I am starting to agree that CCP doesn't care about its customers' opinion. ____________________________________________
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Adunh Slavy
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:20:00 -
[360]
Originally by: Alpheias IMO, CCP should be paying anyone that hosts a website or blog that practically endorses EVE because it is basically free advertising that CCP (and EVE) is getting.
Not to mention, CCP should be paying me a fee to store Aurum only items on my hard drive in the not too distant future.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange Nabaal Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:21:00 -
[361]
Originally by: CCP Atlas Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
Please do so. I don't think anyone objects to people who make for-profit Eve stuff(iPhone apps, etc.) paying a fee. But people who don't even cover their server costs being expected to drop an extra C-note a year on this is ridiculous, and that's the part that has everyone up in arms.
Also, what does this $99 buy a developer? Is it just a rights purchase, or are you going to give them extra tools and support as well? I'd wager there'd be somewhat less rage involved if you had any goodies in this message, and not just "lol, pay us more monies for something you've been doing for free since 2003".
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Emilya Tatsuki
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:21:00 -
[362]
Edited by: Emilya Tatsuki on 15/06/2011 20:21:35
Originally by: Innominate
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
If you consider the number of people who WOULD pay it, you're completely right. If you consider the number of people that would have to pay it to continue what they're doing you're off by a couple orders of magnitude and the dollar amount becomes meaningful. (i.e. If you throw in an unrealistic expectation of the number of people willing to pay it)
Even if ONE THOUSAND people did this it would be 100k a year. compared to 72MILLION?
oh my god you are right! its a .1% increase a whole ONE TENTH of a percent increase, my god those greedy bastards
Seriously guys, Math is your friend.
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Ruziel
Minmatar Twilight Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:22:00 -
[363]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Quoted for truth.
You are taking people who care enough about the game to take your woefully under-documented API and sometimes incredibly convoluted data dump and wrestle them into applications that soothe the pain of using your terribad in-game interface and offer them without requiring anything in return, and want to charge them.
This is just the news I need after putting in a good day of coding on my own site, which has yet to launch, because of yesterday's shutdown.
Now, if they want to charge me for a commercial license for this site just because I want to receive (but not require) ISK donations for my work, there's a chance the site won't see the light of day.
I'm all for requiring the commercial license for anyone that requires real world money for their application/website.
I don't even really have a problem requiring it for developers require ISK for for their application/website.
I'm undecided about requiring it for advertisement supported sites, but I'm leaning towards no, because I highly doubt that any of them make enough cash to cover operating costs, so all you are doing in this case is adding to their burden.
Where I draw the line is going after sites like the one I've been planning, and the model that some of the larger existing sites (dotlan evemaps for one) follow. Offering a useful service to the eve community, and requiring nothing in return. Placing the onus on the users to compensate us in some manner, if they feel moved to do so.
While I'm probably not considered a veteran in the same light as people who have been playing the game since its inception, I feel that I'm fairly invested in the game at this point. I've stuck out and even supported the changes in the game during my three year tenure.
But the words and actions coming from CCP lately have severely sapped my confidence in the game. The last week or so has been a slap in the face, and today as Chribba put it, a punch in the gut.
The fact that you are ramming Incarna/CQ down our throats despite earlier promises that it would be entirely optional. The whole vanity ship for nothing but Aurum debacle (which you've now backpedaled on), which would have screwed with industrialists like myself. And now this travesty.
For the first time since I started playing, I'm to reconsider my involvement in the game. CCP, this thread should serve as a wake-up call to you. If you turn the 3rd party developer community, those of us that are more invested in the game than the average player, against you, may have dire consequences.
As a sidebar:
Also, will this herald a new form of griefing? A website that does not solicit for donations, but someone in game makes a one to the character(s) running the website with the name of the site in the comment. Will CCP suddenly come calling with a $99 bill?
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Reset Password
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:23:00 -
[364]
Originally by: Don Pellegrino
HOW HARD IS IT TO ASK THE CSM FIRST?
This topic actually came up during the 5th CSM but it was nothing like this.
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Holy Cheater
Monks of War DarkSide.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:23:00 -
[365]
Developers can't sell anything for real money, but require to pay 100$ for some silly license. This is ridiculous and insane.
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Emilya Tatsuki
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:23:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Kerrisone
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION) but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.
How dare a business want money. And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.
They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it. The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
How about when they kill the license program and no one is allowed to continue their service or support of the products they've made? Yet CCP has information on what those programs did, basically able to make it themselves as everyone HAS to 'register' their product with them? CCP might be 'nice' and buy them out for a pittance but they don't have to. So CCP takes over those services and charges extra, or maybe AURUM payment only.
Yeah, No. That is the most :tinfoil: reply ive seen yet. Just because its a fad to hate on CCP doesnt make them evil.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:24:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki Edited by: Emilya Tatsuki on 15/06/2011 20:21:35
Originally by: Innominate
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
If you consider the number of people who WOULD pay it, you're completely right. If you consider the number of people that would have to pay it to continue what they're doing you're off by a couple orders of magnitude and the dollar amount becomes meaningful. (i.e. If you throw in an unrealistic expectation of the number of people willing to pay it)
Even if ONE THOUSAND people did this it would be 100k a year. compared to 72MILLION?
oh my god you are right! its a .1% increase a whole ONE TENTH of a percent increase, my god those greedy bastards
Seriously guys, Math is your friend.
If you think that 72 million is accurate, you're a bleeding idiot. If you then think that is all profit, you're an even bigger idiot. If you then still think 100k a year is anything to be sniffed at, well there's not much hope for you. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Delta Jax
NixCraft IMPERIAL LEGI0N
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:24:00 -
[368]
Edited by: Delta Jax on 15/06/2011 20:24:32 CCP, You think this a joke or something.. "9 pages of hate" is nothing if the 3rd party developers turn their apps off..
Stop biting the hand that feeds, I will not buy any plex, and as a ceo, I will put a decree out to boycott plex buying.
Enjoy your plex ban
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Everseeker
Caldari Northgate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:24:00 -
[369]
I know... instead of wardeccing some corp... Have everyone in your corp send them 1M isk each Then sic CCP on them so they have to pay $99.00 cash
THEN WarDec em :)
--
EverSeeker |
The Economist
Logically Consistent
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 -
[370]
Oh dear.
Words cannot express the sheer quantity of fail encapsulated within this dev blog.
Another well thought out plan from ccp.
|
|
Pytria Le'Danness
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 -
[371]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
What the frell did you expect?
The dev post says "Every web page related to EVE will now require a license. Those of you who only do it for laughs get off relatively easy for now, those of you who try to offset their real-life cash costs by adding adverts will now have to face another fee that is almost as high as the hosting fee for a general web site."
If I run a corp web site that simply says "Buy GTCs from XYZ using this affiliate link" I am using CCP's IP for commercial purposes according to your dev blog and have to pay an additional $99/year. ON TOP of the hosting costs, ON TOP of the time I spend, ON TOP of the monthly payment for EVE.
I know it's well within your rights to do so, but... do you really want to **** your players like that?
What happened to the CCP that I knew a few years ago? Sad to see it die like this.
|
Otocinclus
Minmatar Project Nemesis WE FORM VOLTRON
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:25:00 -
[372]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
This is exactly what it is, a way to kill RMT Once a license is required, they can sue these websites out of existence
Since banning them ingame isnt doing crap, making their businesses require a license will do two things:
1. the ones who dont want the License will get sued
2. the ones who do, will have given then information to CCP.
Its a drastic step due to the legit and helpful people are getting hurt too but I hope it works out well, otherwise its gonna hurt them alot more than RMTers
Don't try and make sense of this bull****. CCP wants money, thats all it is.
Really? $99 a year from a handful of people? I probably make more in a month a work.
so if even 100 people (and I feel thats a stretch) do this, its 9.9k a year. yeah thats a HUGE bottomline increase.
I mean its not like 400k active users paying $15 a month adds up to much (72 MILLION) but yeah, 9.9k, they are just ROLLING IN THE MONEY
Hey, CCP is the one that is charging for this. Any charge at all = Them wanting money.
How dare a business want money. And if they are just "Wanting money" increases their income by 9.9k is pretty **** poor.
They are preparing to take legal action, and this is the set up for it. The collateral is huge (IE ****ed off customers)
but IF it works out well, they might forgive them a little. either way its a huge risk, and CCP has the balls to try it
This is exactly what I figured when I saw the devblog, been searching through the posts to see if anyone else had the same idea. I seriously doubt they're actually going to charge people like EVEmon and EFT for the things they do, it most likely will just be to try and put down RMT.
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Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 -
[373]
BizDev = Marketing. Marketing is the single greatest source for really bad ideas in any corporation IÆve ever been directly involved with, associated with, or studied. The department draws egotistical, self-assured, incompetent idiots like no other department. With that in mind, you really canÆt blame the ôBizDevö department for release of this first draft. Simply put, they should not be held responsible for release of this ôfirst draftö. No one should expect better from them.
What IÆd like to know is who IS responsible for not filtering or vetting the ôbizdevö plan and releasing this completely unacceptable first draft plan. Anyone who knows anything knows you keep a muzzle on your marketing department and require any releases from them to go through a responsible executive with at least two gray cells to rub together.
Requiring a license for people to sell their apps for real life moneyààà.I can see that. The rest is rubbish. Limit the license plan to those who wish to sell their work for real life money. If CCPÆs plan was to troll the subscribers and app developers to see what the level of tolerance was, well done.
The only reason I didnÆt go nuts on this is because I could see at first glance that it was going to be revised. There is no possible way for this first draft of the plan to work well for the subscribers, developers of the apps or CCP itself.
-Windjammer
P.S. I, like everyone else, know of accounts that will close if anything similar to the first draft of this plan is implemented. EVE players already send CCP a substantial amount of money for a game that is unusable without the free third party apps we all use. Apps, I might add, which CCP canÆt seem to build themselves. IÆm really tired of seeing CCP come up with these ôhow can we get more money from our existing customersö plans. Charge for EVE Voice? Charge for EVE TV? Worked out well, huh? People didnÆt pay, didnÆt use. Keep it up and soon they wonÆt pay for EVE or use it either.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 -
[374]
Originally by: Agora Phobic Where are the CSM? The blog doesn't mention that they were told about this.
They weren't told about this because this proposal came from the faction of CCP that hates and fears the CSM, and does their best to wish them away.
Honestly, this shows all the signs of the weapon-grade stupidity of that element of CCP that thinks they're two awesome to actually connect with the player-base. How hard would it be to present this basic idea in a useful and positive form? Trivially easy, in fact.
"New to EVE: The External Developer License. If you want to develop and app for EVE and charge real money for downloading it, then you can license our IP for $99/yr and as long as you and your app comply with the EULA you can make money from your skills and enrich yourself as you enrich the EVE community
Community sites that exist on ISK donations will not be affected as we have always maintained as a matter of legal fact that in-game items including ISK have no real world value.
Community app developers who wish to make their application free but give players the option to make donations up to no more than $5 can pay the $99 license fee and make their app available as a free download from the CCP site"
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Valdamerca
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.
Your damage control does not impress.
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Zamiq
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:26:00 -
[376]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
Awesome, we do need clarification. In the meantime consider clarifying the following issues too:
1. Considering that a lot of players need to rely on applications such as Evemon and EvEHQ in order to plan out their training skills, optimize their implants and remapping and learn which skill books they need in order to pilot a specific ship, will CCP introduce an in-game alternative should these apps become unavailable due to the licensing fees?
2. Since the game does not provide exact damage and dps numbers and a lot of other data that is available in EFT and EvEHQ, will CCP provide an alternative?
3. A number of POS tracking applications are invaluable to corporations and alliance charge with maintaining JB networks. Is CCP developing an in-game alternative should the 3rd party apps become unavailable?
Do you see a trend developing? As of right now, EvE is almost unplayable as an MMO without a myriad of 3rd party applications. Yeah, you can run L4 missions till you die without additional tools but for PvP, Sov Warfare and Sov Logistics it is impossible to play the game without EvEMON, EvEHQ, Forum API verification, POS Tracking and MiningBuddy. All these apps fill the void that you as a developer have failed to fill. Now, you want to add another layer of complexity to developing, hosting and supporting these apps. Job well done.
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InUrJita CheckinUrPrice
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:28:00 -
[377]
What is the sound of CCP poasting?
*slap*
Seriously, find a nice cliff and drop your bizdev team off it, because they are doing you no favors. The last thing you need is to cheese off third party devs.
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:28:00 -
[378]
Serious question:
How does this affect people writing open source eve based libraries/etc for interfacing with the API, etc.
Lets say I developed a web tool that tracked corporate wallet stuff. I GPL it, and put the code up for anyone to download and deploy themselves. I am not running the service for anyone, I don't even use it myself, and the code is open and free for anyone to download run themselves.
Somebody deploys the code, and asks for paypal donations to cover the running costs from his corp.
Who needs to pay the $100?
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Adunh Slavy
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:29:00 -
[379]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
RMT Angle
RMT guyes didn't care about the EULA before, they don't care about the EULA now, they're not going to care about the EULA tomorrow.
These "licensing" threats you've speculated will do nothing. RMTs will shift their hosted sites to a jurisdiction that will look at CCP with a blank stare.
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Khanid Voltar
Night's Dawn Investment Fund
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:31:00 -
[380]
This dev blog really epitomises how low CCP have sunk.
/disappointed, but also unsurprised
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Pizzutz
Gallente Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:32:00 -
[381]
$99 a year to have a tranquility status block on the alliance site homepage next to an adwords banner...
I think I'll just remove the block. It was cool, but not worth it, besides it kills my load time when they remove themselves from the internet due to lulz..
Killboard is going to be a pain. The google ads just covered the server cost, but certainly won't cover server cost, plus what I assume is my second $99 a year I am supposed to pay. Then again, if I'm reading this right, then I'm not allowed to have ads on my killboard right now anyway? For the life of me, I cannot find the section of the ToS that prevents me from having ads on my killboard.. Pizzutz - SHAPE Personnel Manager Pizzitz - SHAPE Research Director Pizzotz - SHAPE Employee |
Ashireka
Minmatar Robot Pirate Ninja Corporation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:33:00 -
[382]
It's fairly obvious that a large part of this came out the Capsuleer collapse. Capsuleer wanted to start making money off the project, but CCP wasn't in a position to negotiate a large number of individual small-time deals with individuals, so they've built up a very simple template for dealing with people who want to make money from CCP's systems. And now people are upset because they want a token license fee for it? They probably spent more on legal fees putting the agreement together than what they'll earn back from those fees in the next two years.
Running the API for all these third-party apps is not free. There is a cost to CCP, in terms of bandwidth, processing power, even engineering support. They've done it because it helps build the community, and a bigger, committed community means more subscriptions, which means more money. It's an investment on their part.
Now you have people who want to make money off software that is heavily dependent on CCP's API. Sure, these people are investing a lot of time into building the software, but at the end of the day, the cost of running that software is on CCP. EVEMon would be near worthless without the API.
CCP is spending money to make the API work for people. If people are going to try to make money off things that are dependent on the API, that means CCP is spending money to help other people make money, and that's just not good business sense.
Take a look around at other software services, like Google Maps. Google supports "the small guys", you can use the services for free -- up to a point. And then you have to start talking licensing agreements and licensing *fees*. I can tell you, I seriously doubt Google's offering $99/year for unlimited revenue potential based on their services.
There are some valid points; if payment is entirely in-game currency, seems like that should fall under "non-commercial use", and perhaps that'll go that way. Donation-based support is tricky; how do you monitor that people aren't "requiring donations" for additional features, etc (thus making it a commercial use).
And don't forget, it has been noted that the non-commercial license is *free*. They only want their $99 if you're making money off their work. Seems more than fair.
-Ash
Robot Pirate Ninja Corp (RPNC) Based in Alenia / Verge Vendor Casual fun for casual people High sec/low sec/we all scream for ice cream |
Ripperljohn
Caldari Ore Mongers
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:33:00 -
[383]
i'll pay the 99$ if i get something valuable back from it.
hell, even a proper Gamescom appearance would be nice.
ANYTHING.
but it seems you rather want me to unsub.
fair enough, i guess. --------------------------------------------------
"Look, we're basically on earth to **** and ****. So unless your job's to help people **** or ****, it's not that important, so relax."
-shi |
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:33:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.
Your damage control does not impress.
+1
Posting in a Troll thread.
10/10 CCP. Here is where you say that you did it for the lulz and this, Ishukone Scorpions, and all the "dig as far as you can into your communities pockets" bull**** is just a terrible, terrible joke.
A funny thing happens when you try squeezing blood out of rocks as hard as you can.
The only blood you get, is yours, coming from your broken hand.
-A newish player, less than a year old, incredibly disilusioned with you.
Go make a new disaster, that's what I'm counting on. You're someone else's problem, now I only want you gone...
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1516147 mcv |
Delta Jax
NixCraft IMPERIAL LEGI0N
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 -
[385]
Seriously, If this is about being able to take down RMT sites with IP infringement.
The MPAA already try it this way, last i heard.. it hasn't been working so well for them.
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Mr LaForge
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
|
Nardman
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.
Your damage control does not impress.
What damage control are you referring to? THIS IS DOMINION! |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:34:00 -
[388]
Edited by: Malcanis on 15/06/2011 20:34:50 You know Hilmar, if you're paying the bizdev guy who came up with this idea, let's say... $40,000 a year? Then you could fire him and set the money you saved against providing free licenses to 80 app developers for 50 years.
Just a thought.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Zamiq
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:35:00 -
[389]
Originally by: Erichk Knaar Serious question:
How does this affect people writing open source eve based libraries/etc for interfacing with the API, etc.
Lets say I developed a web tool that tracked corporate wallet stuff. I GPL it, and put the code up for anyone to download and deploy themselves. I am not running the service for anyone, I don't even use it myself, and the code is open and free for anyone to download run themselves.
Somebody deploys the code, and asks for paypal donations to cover the running costs from his corp.
Who needs to pay the $100?
Exactly, and what happens if the corp that is hosting their own stuff has multiple web apps? Pretty much every corp has their own KB, MiningBuddy and a bunch of other tools. Now they have to pay 300$ a year? If not can they use add support? If yes, then why is 3rd party developer being penalized and not 3rd party user.
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adriaans
Amarr Ankaa. Nair Al-Zaurak
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:38:00 -
[390]
Tell your Biz department to go ************************************************************************************ themselves and get the hell out of CCP and the gaming world.
--signature-- My latest pvp video: Link |
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Zamiq
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:39:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Ashireka It's fairly obvious that a large part of this came out the Capsuleer collapse. Capsuleer wanted to start making money off the project, but CCP wasn't in a position to negotiate a large number of individual small-time deals with individuals, so they've built up a very simple template for dealing with people who want to make money from CCP's systems. And now people are upset because they want a token license fee for it? They probably spent more on legal fees putting the agreement together than what they'll earn back from those fees in the next two years.
Running the API for all these third-party apps is not free. There is a cost to CCP, in terms of bandwidth, processing power, even engineering support. They've done it because it helps build the community, and a bigger, committed community means more subscriptions, which means more money. It's an investment on their part.
Now you have people who want to make money off software that is heavily dependent on CCP's API. Sure, these people are investing a lot of time into building the software, but at the end of the day, the cost of running that software is on CCP. EVEMon would be near worthless without the API.
CCP is spending money to make the API work for people. If people are going to try to make money off things that are dependent on the API, that means CCP is spending money to help other people make money, and that's just not good business sense.
Take a look around at other software services, like Google Maps. Google supports "the small guys", you can use the services for free -- up to a point. And then you have to start talking licensing agreements and licensing *fees*. I can tell you, I seriously doubt Google's offering $99/year for unlimited revenue potential based on their services.
There are some valid points; if payment is entirely in-game currency, seems like that should fall under "non-commercial use", and perhaps that'll go that way. Donation-based support is tricky; how do you monitor that people aren't "requiring donations" for additional features, etc (thus making it a commercial use).
And don't forget, it has been noted that the non-commercial license is *free*. They only want their $99 if you're making money off their work. Seems more than fair.
-Ash
What you say is fine and everyone understands that CCP has a cost associated with 3rd party apps. The problem is that many of these apps fill the void in the game, a void that either should have been filled by CCP or by allowing custom UI and add ons. Granted the add ons function might cause more issues but to say that the game is playable without a 3rd Party Fitting app or a 3rd Party Skill planning app is simply a lie.
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Frozen Guardian
Registered Amateur Mathematicians
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:40:00 -
[392]
So...for the one time donation for a few million every few months will cost me $100 a year?
I've spent more time coding and supporting the POS Tracker than playing EVE in the past year. Now you want me to give YOU money to allow me to continue developing an application that supports your game...just so I can ask for a few million to help support the development. Instead of playing EVE I am coding an application for your game. I would never ever want to charge corps/alliances real money for this. That would just be the biggest **** move ever. In fact, you(CCP) should be giving ME a plex every month for supporting and continual development of an application that has been downloaded and installed by several hundred corporations/alliances to make their gaming experience better. You should be paying other sites like EVE-Kill, OOE, EVE-Files, EVE Commander, EVE-Marketdata, and etc for providing their services to better your game.
If you(CCP) are unable to provide the service yourself, you shouldn't ask anything in return for people who are making applications and asking for donations or even isk payments. If CCP created a site or tool just like lets say Out of EVE then sure, go ahead and ask for money because your own time and effort has been spent and people should be using the built-in service. If however people want a different version they can go elsewhere but the developer does have to pay you a fee.
So in short, leave us(developers/coders/service providers/etc) alone unless you yourself can provide the same service these applications/sites are.
-FG
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:40:00 -
[393]
I am very disappointed by the Dev reply.
Hate thread? Hello?? Those are the guys who made EVE what it is today, they formed the community, they brought more people to EVE (and kept them there) than all the CCP marketing campaigns together. Where would EVE be without Eve-files, EFT, Evemon, ISK Guide, Forums, all those people who care?! And you call them Haters???
WTF
That being said...
Why can't CCP keep donation and ad-driven sites free from a commercial license and give them the free license? (The whole free license stuff is anyway really an idiotic idea, it is like forcing Picasso to have a membership in the local artisan union before he is allowed to paint, it kills totally the spirit and dedication)
What is the point in forcing donation and ad-driven sites to buy a $100 license? I just don't get it.
I can even not understand that CCP wants a commercial license at all! What is the point in that??
The more people some app are using, THE BETTER IT IS FOR CCP!
If that app costs money, to hell, why not?! What damage is done to CCP by this? No damage at all! They PROFIT from this, the more professional apps we have, the better it is, the better the community thrives.
CCP - give EVERYONE a free license. You don't have additional costs, you don't have problems, you just have a big fat happy playerbase!
And CCP said it itself, the license fees won't cover anything, maybe just the costs of the licence fee program itself. My advise: GET RID OF IT!
Give everyone a free license
CCP has no loss, the player have no loss. Only win here. |
Apollo Gabriel
Brotherhood Of Fallen Angels Etherium Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:41:00 -
[394]
CCP why must you get this **** wrong every time you do it?
Why don't you state "Here is a draft" at the start?
Why don't you contact the people like Chribba, get an NDA, and float this stuff past them?
You're an 8+ year old company, there really is no excuse for these types of blunders any longer. It TRULY shakes the confidence of the community when you get these things so wrong.
I recognize the truly difficult bind you are in, 10 months ago people were screaming for transparency, and when you give it, we respond with torches. However, your company got itself in this bind and needs to treat these interactions through blog announcements are extremely important events which are proof read, torn apart and put back together before they are released.
Sheesh
***** Signature may appear without warning! ***** Please do not feed the trolls, it builds dependency.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:41:00 -
[395]
Edited by: Tippia on 15/06/2011 20:45:22
Originally by: Erichk Knaar Serious question:
How does this affect people writing open source eve based libraries/etc for interfacing with the API, etc.
Lets say I developed a web tool that tracked corporate wallet stuff. I GPL it, and put the code up for anyone to download and deploy themselves. I am not running the service for anyone, I don't even use it myself, and the code is open and free for anyone to download run themselves.
Somebody deploys the code, and asks for paypal donations to cover the running costs from his corp.
Who needs to pay the $100?
The person who makes "commercial use" of the API, in this case, the person who receives the donations.
Originally by: Zamiq Exactly, and what happens if the corp that is hosting their own stuff has multiple web apps? Pretty much every corp has their own KB, MiningBuddy and a bunch of other tools. Now they have to pay 300$ a year? If not can they use add support? If yes, then why is 3rd party developer being penalized and not 3rd party user.
This is a much more interesting question: how broad is the license? Is it one per developer (and if so, what counts as an individual developer entity) or is it one per product (and if so, what counts as an individual product entity)? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Amber Villaneous
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:42:00 -
[396]
Originally by: CCP Atlas 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
What service? I have seen nothing that indicates something new will be added. Or do you mean the SERVICE of granting a liscence?
How about the old addage "If it ain't broke don't fug with it"
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Ynot Eyob
Minmatar Nisroc Angels The Obsidian Front
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Posted - 2011.06.15 20:43:00 -
[397]
Edited by: Ynot Eyob on 15/06/2011 20:45:18 Crist...
Alliances uses API to verify people on their forums, so now every resonable alliance / corp in game who use the API, so they dont manuel have to admin 300+ user,s have to pay 99$ a year on top.
In that case CCP serious has to come up with a better admin system for corp management and alliances, and give the space for a closed forum :(
Its already now an admin nightmare to keep your security as tight as posible, but now you have to pay even more. EVEs becomming a TO exspensiv hobby.
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Emilya Tatsuki
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:44:00 -
[398]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
RMT Angle
RMT guyes didn't care about the EULA before, they don't care about the EULA now, they're not going to care about the EULA tomorrow.
These "licensing" threats you've speculated will do nothing. RMTs will shift their hosted sites to a jurisdiction that will look at CCP with a blank stare.
The EULA has nothing to do with this. It's not a legally binding contract like a License is.
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Velicitia
Open Designs
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:45:00 -
[399]
Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.
Your damage control does not impress.
this
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Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:47:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.
Your damage control does not impress.
+1
Posting in a Troll thread.
10/10 CCP. Here is where you say that you did it for the lulz and this, Ishukone Scorpions, and all the "dig as far as you can into your communities pockets" bull**** is just a terrible, terrible joke.
A funny thing happens when you try squeezing blood out of rocks as hard as you can.
The only blood you get, is yours, coming from your broken hand.
-A newish player, less than a year old, incredibly disilusioned with you.
Go make a new disaster, that's what I'm counting on. You're someone else's problem, now I only want you gone...
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1516147 mcv |
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Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:48:00 -
[401]
srsly wtf is wrong with you guys over there at CCP?
there are a ****load of developers who are spending ages of their free time inventing great services like evemon and whatnot for free wich boosts the player experience by far and all you do is to charge them 100 bucks a year?
no srsly that must be some sort of a very very very bad joke
wtf did you think about?
BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Nymblar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:50:00 -
[402]
All this over Capsuleer? Wow.
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Adunh Slavy
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:51:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Emilya Tatsuki
The EULA has nothing to do with this. It's not a legally binding contract like a License is.
There is one operative word in the acronym "EULA", feel free to go discover it. Hint, it starts with "L".
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:52:00 -
[404]
Originally by: Zamiq
1. Considering that a lot of players need to rely on applications such as Evemon and EvEHQ in order to plan out their training skills, optimize their implants and remapping and learn which skill books they need in order to pilot a specific ship, will CCP introduce an in-game alternative should these apps become unavailable due to the licensing fees?
Don't be surprised if they die off and CCP release their own CCPEFT for a price.
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Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:52:00 -
[405]
Wow, the amount of fail/bad news and decisions concerning EVE has been staggering this month. Do you have any sane people working at CCP anymore or is this a case of specific scrum teams having too much concentrated stupid in them and you having no oversight on their decisions?
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Kronnek McBryde
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:54:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Kronnek McBryde on 15/06/2011 20:54:51 Fine, the BizDev team has come up with a plan and specific details about what they want to do. One thing in a business report that is probly the most important for a user of your service, how does this impact our customers?
I see how it benefits CCP but again, what were the motivations behind it other than profit?
An explination would make me feel better about this HUGE shift in the community.
Will this stop hacking/cheating/stealing? Will this make the server faster? Will this make the system more secure? Will we get more features? Will people writing utilites make money without having to charge the end user a fee that makes playing this game unreasonable? Is this a step to try to save the company because of previous bad business decisions?
As I see it, this change brings nothing good or new to the community that has supported Eve Online for so long and to the players as a whole.
Please explain how this helps?
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Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:54:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:55:00 -
[408]
Originally by: CCP Atlas Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Then make it a $10 commercial licence or less (if all you need are the payment details). There are a lot of services that are not run for-profit (real world profit) that would have serious issues justifying an additional $99/yr cost. If you guys don't do this for the money but to empower 3rd party devs, drop the licence fee significantly from $99.
Out of curiosity, what 'costs of the service' are there that you need to justify? I don't see you guys adding anything new and you will need to keep the API running anyway? So I can't see any new costs to justify.
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:56:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Zamiq
1. Considering that a lot of players need to rely on applications such as Evemon and EvEHQ in order to plan out their training skills, optimize their implants and remapping and learn which skill books they need in order to pilot a specific ship, will CCP introduce an in-game alternative should these apps become unavailable due to the licensing fees?
Don't be surprised if they die off and CCP release their own CCPEFT for a price.
I'm sure it would be every bit the runaway success that EVE Voice was. Or Evegate.
(Is Evegate still going? If it is, does anyone actually use it? I never hear anyone refer to it ever, and I've never found a reason to use it yet)
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:57:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Nardman
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
It bears repeating, again, and again. I'm still questioning whether or not this is a troll. CCP employees cannot be this ****ing dumb.
Your damage control does not impress.
+1
Posting in a Troll thread.
10/10 CCP. Here is where you say that you did it for the lulz and this, Ishukone Scorpions, and all the "dig as far as you can into your communities pockets" bull**** is just a terrible, terrible joke.
A funny thing happens when you try squeezing blood out of rocks as hard as you can.
The only blood you get, is yours, coming from your broken hand.
-A newish player, less than a year old, incredibly disilusioned with you.
Go make a new disaster, that's what I'm counting on. You're someone else's problem, now I only want you gone...
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1516147 mcv |
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Holy One
Quiet.Storm
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:58:00 -
[411]
Deffo allow Plex payment.
That way players can donate isk or plex to 3rd party developers directly, who can then purchase plex and reverse redeem them to cover licensing costs.
BBQ makes me hungry for more... |
Mister Rocknrolla
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 -
[412]
Apologies...still reading through the thread, but my question: is there an enforcement provision somewhere? Will the API server require credentials/license check of some sort before it will allow any IP/app to access it? How would it distinguish between a private app and a commercial app?
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Dani Leone
Gallente How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 -
[413]
Great news for Developers? lmfao.
Do you realise that you are basically shaking down the very people who make up the bulk of the reason eve is as playable as it is?
That you are looking to shut down what is essentially free advertising on a huge scale?
Because some 'awesome' ****** with an MBA thinks its a good idea perhaps?
Man, you gotta keep those guys away from the Jeffries.
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Zamiq
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Frozen Guardian So...for the one time donation for a few million every few months will cost me $100 a year?
I've spent more time coding and supporting the POS Tracker than playing EVE in the past year. Now you want me to give YOU money to allow me to continue developing an application that supports your game...just so I can ask for a few million to help support the development. Instead of playing EVE I am coding an application for your game. I would never ever want to charge corps/alliances real money for this. That would just be the biggest **** move ever. In fact, you(CCP) should be giving ME a plex every month for supporting and continual development of an application that has been downloaded and installed by several hundred corporations/alliances to make their gaming experience better. You should be paying other sites like EVE-Kill, OOE, EVE-Files, EVE Commander, EVE-Marketdata, and etc for providing their services to better your game.
If you(CCP) are unable to provide the service yourself, you shouldn't ask anything in return for people who are making applications and asking for donations or even isk payments. If CCP created a site or tool just like lets say Out of EVE then sure, go ahead and ask for money because your own time and effort has been spent and people should be using the built-in service. If however people want a different version they can go elsewhere but the developer does have to pay you a fee.
So in short, leave us(developers/coders/service providers/etc) alone unless you yourself can provide the same service these applications/sites are.
-FG
There you go. Perfectly worded from one of the 3rd Party devs. They already have to spend time and effort on the app in order to fill a gap in the game and now you want them to spend time and effort trying to recoup additional $99.
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Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 20:59:00 -
[415]
CCP, once again you give the appearance that you skim the surface of other corporations' initiatives for ideas or just pull random **** out of your ass without apparently any proper business analysis before laying it on the community and creating much unnecessary bad feelings, rage, and lolwut facepalming. I suggest before you get on your high horse and start thinking you can impose a developers program like, oh, say, Apple, you take a close look at what your similarly priced licensing arrangement can offer in comparison. You aren't even in the same ballpark. I think you have the line between reality and your make-believe universe a little bit too blurred for your own good.
Seriously, what a way to twist the knife of cluelessness and ingratitude in the vitals of a community that is really starting to lose faith.
---------- My Blog: Life In Low Sec |
Captain Eflame
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:00:00 -
[416]
details need to be refined and better presented for people to make a better decision on the program they way it is put in the dev blog i think is being miss understood and does not come across as a good thing or anything that improves the game... or alternatively it is presented as intended and someone in the bizdev team needs to be slapped.
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Hexman
The Ankou Raiden.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:02:00 -
[417]
Edited by: Hexman on 15/06/2011 21:04:15 This reminds me of the time CCP asked the players to vote for them for "Best MMO" of the year or something like that, just when lag was at a real bad level.
I thought you guys couldn't top that as a "BAD F'N IDEA" but you never seize to amaze me.
EDIT: Server's kinda slow ain't it?
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Lex Starwalker
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:03:00 -
[418]
Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
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Hexman
The Ankou Raiden.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:05:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Lex Starwalker Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
Of course it's their right. Nobody's contesting that (I think). People are just saying it's a really really bad idea.
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Col Crunch
Caldari Industrial Guardians of New Eden New Eden's Industrial Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:06:00 -
[420]
Quote: Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Why would you need a commercial license for this? My corp website has a donation like system on it (Shattered Crystal Support your corp program), however it is NOT a commercial venture therefore I should not need a commercial license.
Quote: Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license? No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.
Does the shattered crystal thing count, cause I have a support your corp thing from them on there. I will NOT pay $99 to allow people to DONATE to my website in any way. A donation program does not constitute commerciality.
|
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Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:08:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Lex Starwalker Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
And by enforcing this CCP removes tens, even hundreds of developers and possibly thousands of players because the 3rd party apps are what keep EvE's community alive and kicking. Without 3PP we'd have an excel simulator with shiny graphics.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:08:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Lex Starwalker Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
They are within their rights to do it yes, but good business sense?
Sometimes giving stuff away earns you more money. In this case CCP wants to charge people for working for them, in the past CCP allowed people to work for them for free.
Charging for something is only good business sense if there are clients willing to pay the fee.
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Amber Villaneous
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:08:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Lex Starwalker Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
Bottom Line:
You are are idiot.
People are making their game better, more enjoyable, easier to play and filling in the gaps CCP does not provide. And, as an IP CCP is well within their rights to to say "Thank you" and then STFU and not dig into the pockets of the people helping them.
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Algathas
The Revenge of Auntie Freeze
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:10:00 -
[424]
|
Dani Leone
Gallente How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:11:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Lex Starwalker Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
It is most definitely not good business sense to work to shut down what is essentially a massive force multiplier for their own advertising efforts, great word of mouth and a reassurance to new comers that here is a world where the players care about the game, in fact I can hardly think of a more cretinous way to go about 'protecting their Ip.'
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Topless Trader
Gallente Hashimoto Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Miss Bombshell
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 -
[427]
Can someone clarify what the bolded text means?
Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license?
No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.
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Khavi Kitamatsu
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 -
[428]
Edited by: Khavi Kitamatsu on 15/06/2011 21:12:24 You can't stop botting and are barely trying to, and now you want to ask players to agree to this commercial license ideal?
NOT!
I'll continue to donate "my money" to websites that make my enjoyment of your game tolerable and if I hear they bought into your little scheme I'll stop donating to them. If it wasn't for them I wouldn't even be playing your broken game that is full of cheats and bots!
Fix your own bed first CCP!
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Ker HarSol
Minmatar Zip - I
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 -
[429]
LOL
Stupid me.
And I thought CCP would reward the most popular apps with $99 per year.
Hahaha |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:12:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Lex Starwalker Bottom Line:
EVE Online is an IP, and CCP is 100% within their rights to do this. It's good business sense. It's not right for others to make money off someone's IP without the owner of the IP being compensated. That's why we have copyright laws to begin with. This is the real world. No free rides.
Last night my friend and I were in a bar and he bought me a drink. I charged him ú99 for a license to bring stuff to my table.
After all: this is the real world, no free rides.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
|
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:13:00 -
[431]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
WHAT?
Quote: 2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
SO if I'm a MERCENARY corporation I have to pay $100 to CCP to PLAY and create my own content in your SANDBOX?
That needs SERIOUS clarification.
So if I'm an EVE BANK I need to pay $100 to CCP for RUNNING AN EVE BANK?!
DO you want to kill this game?
You want to commercialize 3rd party apps, that's fine, but you want to force people to pay you to create CONTENT FOR YOUR GAME? That's absurd.
Revisit that statement heavily. Think of the consequences THOROUGHLY in a sandbox.
This is beyond comprehensible.
____________________________________________________
Bastet :: Captain |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
|
Posted - 2011.06.15 21:13:00 -
[432]
Originally by: Mynxee I suggest before you get on your high horse and start thinking you can impose a developers program like, oh, say, Apple, you take a close look at what your similarly priced licensing arrangement can offer in comparison. You aren't even in the same ballpark. I think you have the line between reality and your make-believe universe a little bit too blurred for your own good.
àand to further build on that, the Apple dev community builds on a long history of (relatively) high-priced OSX shareware. Compared to the Windows side, there is an almost negligible amount of freeware and long-trial/nagware paid for apps ù everyone does a 14days, then pay up kind of shareware instead. So these devs have long since learned how to recoup their costs and how to stay afloat even with Apple's (inevitable) cut.
What you're trying to do is essentially an immediate jump from the Windows freeware model to the Apple AppStore model, while having none of the clout or market size of either. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:14:00 -
[433]
Wow CCP, how EXACTLY is this good news for 3rd party apps?
"GOOD NEWS EVERYONE, you now have to pay for something that was once free!"
"Why? Well because **** YOU that's why."
If this goes through I will just go play SWTOR instead. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.
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Lykouleon
Bad Kitty Inc. Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:14:00 -
[434]
:whelp: by now any thoughts I can think of have been said.
$5 for a year-long license: not terrible. $10 for a year-long license: pushing the boundry but still not god-awful.
$99 for a year-long license? Someone PLEASE take the bizdev department and put them in a town square and flog them. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO THAT I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
Evanova Android
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:15:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Mal Plox
Capsuleer, please come back!
Now that this business license deal is being clarified, I will just leave that there for you...
http://evanova-mobile.blogspot.com/
Once the API site is back to stable after all the recent DDOS miseries, a few more testing and it'll be yours. Initial feedback based on the screenshots will be appreciated.
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Nitinol
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:16:00 -
[436]
Am I gonna need a license to use the API for software I don't distribute? |
Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:17:00 -
[437]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Don't be silly. This is EVE. People are outspoken in their responses to blatant stupidity. Yes, much is mannerless - but you only have yourselves to blame for nurturing that environment.
Originally by: CCP Atlas Much corporate speak.
This is not the place for inane corporate speak. You [CCP] are normally capable of communicating in language the player base uses. So try this:
Sorry, guys. We really, really screwed up here. We're withdrawing this blog immediately. We'll get back to you with a new blog once we've discussed the topic with key developers such as Chribba.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:20:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Tippia and to further build on that, the Apple dev community builds on a long history of (relatively) high-priced OSX shareware. Compared to the Windows side, there is an almost negligible amount of freeware and long-trial/nagware paid for apps ù everyone does a 14days, then pay up kind of shareware instead. So these devs have long since learned how to recoup their costs and how to stay afloat even with Apple's (inevitable) cut.
What you're trying to do is essentially an immediate jump from the Windows freeware model to the Apple AppStore model, while having none of the clout or market size of either.
TLDR: Apple CAN ask developers for a license because:
- Apple actually HAS the market for them. How many would pay for Eve Income Analyzer? With 44 downloads (see counter) I am certainly going to be RICH! - Apple DELIVERS while CCP overpromises. - Apple GIVES SDK and tools, CCP added ZERO.
------------------
Also what baffles me: free open source is DEAD in EvE.
- If you host it on SourgeForge, then money is being made therefore the weakest link (guess who?) has to pay $99.
- If you host on any free blog or website they always come with Google ads (to stay free you know) and then someone has to pay $99. Who? Blogspot? Noooo, the poor lolEvEdev!
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:20:00 -
[439]
I'm sorry CCP but what the hell have they put in your water the past week, you have gone bat **** ******ed.
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:21:00 -
[440]
Edited by: Shaemell Buttleson on 15/06/2011 21:24:15
Originally by: Selnix
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Just a thought... If there weren't gaping holes in your game, maybe there wouldn't be all of these 3rd party programs to begin with. How about a small list of 3rd party apps which are completely free to use which don't have a viable counterpart in-game that could be adversely affected by this crap...
- Jump Planners - Have fun figuring out what systems are in range or what a nice route may be using only in-game mechanics
- EFT - Have fun buying one of everything just so you can find out what fits will fit whilst still not knowing how decent the tank may be or how much dps you will do
- EVEMON - Please enjoy planning out your skills a day at a time
- Corp/Alliance/Battleclinic Killboards - To all of the ***gots who have whined about killboards ruining their happy little carebear existance, I guess this one is a good one
I'm sure there are plenty of others which people find invaluable to them to make a broken game playable but I thought I'd just stick with the highlights. If you don't plan to add some functionality to your game, perhaps you shouldn't hinder the progress of those who want to do so.
The corps and alliances of EvE might get the shaft as well since loads of them want at least a partial API to get access on their forums!
SHAME ON YOU CCP
Maybe the bughunters and the guys who regularly test on SISI should get payed if you want to go the whole mercenary route!
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:21:00 -
[441]
Dear CCP,
Are you out of your minds? You make a game interface that is unplayable in the long term without free, voluntarily created 3rd party tools like EFT, dotlan and Evemon, and yet you want to effectively shut those services and services like it down? You realize this would make your compelling, yet poorly polished game effectively unplayable? What is wrong with your business team? What are you smoking? How much money could you possibly make from these licenses that would offset making your game one no sane person would subscribe to? You're already niche enough. Do you really want a game that is only playable by those hardcore enough to survive with the in-game map?
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Tex Bloodhunter
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:24:00 -
[442]
Edited by: Tex Bloodhunter on 15/06/2011 21:25:03 Like the general idea regarding apps. Just make sure to keep it simple. Make it free. Get rid of licensing issues and ways to make real money. Let players offer services to other players in exchange for ISK. This is fun and lucrative for app developers, practical and beneficial for service-using players and in the general interest of CPP as it enriches EVE. Plain, simple, good :)
Oh and keep the current API freely accessible the way it is please
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Jaddar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 -
[443]
Edited by: Jaddar on 15/06/2011 21:28:51 What are you all on about, people? This sounds like a children quarrel, not like a grown-up constructive criticism and negotiation session! "CCP said what?! I'm gonna take my toys and go away, go kill yourself, CCP!"
First of all, you all seem to have missed the part in which they ask for constructive criticism. They said nothing is set in stone. Everything can be changed. "What do you guys think we should change about it and how?" Can we really not have a conversation about it instead of kicking and screaming?
And what's all this bull about CCP wanting to rip off people and get rich off of this?! They make $6M / month! Even if they would get a thousand developers to pay for this license, it would bring an additional 0.2% income!
I propose we try to get a little organized, stop kicking and screaming, and actually compile a list of grievances. What is it about the license as presented that we don't agree with? I for one think that indeed, you should only pay for the license if you make money out of your product. So I propose that we should see a version of the license with this changed. If the change does not look good, we can further amend it. Does this really sound so out of place? |
Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 -
[444]
yeah i dont want to hear CCP devs say "9 pages of hate"
when they have gone without adding an ingame EFT-like or EVEmon-like feature for 8+ years
well i for one wont pay forcibly, not for eft or evemon... and since a lack of those services makes eve nigh unplayable, i wont be playing eve either.
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Vanessa Vansen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 -
[445]
Worst idea since I'm (EVE) online!
Seems like you want to get rid of your 3rd party developers.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:28:00 -
[446]
Edited by: Natalia Kovac on 15/06/2011 21:29:57
Originally by: Majuan Shuo yeah i dont want to hear CCP devs say "9 pages of hate"
when they have gone without adding an ingame EFT-like or EVEmon-like feature for 8+ years
well i for one wont pay forcibly, not for eft or evemon... and since a lack of those services makes eve nigh unplayable, i wont be playing eve either.
Agreed. I'm not gonna pay for EFT or Evemon now when they've been free their whole existence. No thanks CCP.
Also I guess every alliance that uses the API for fetching and verifying killmails has to pay $99 a year? Lol ok.
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MegabitOne
Caldari The Black Ops
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:29:00 -
[447]
Originally by: CCP Atlas 1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. Kinda slow, these guys, no? Taking 6 years to catch up with what their player-base is doing....
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
How's this for a business plan: suppose X and Y are players, the friend plays WOW so that we are sure he doesn't know anything about a good game, mkay? 1) X gets a friend to develop an application based on the eve api 2) X puts Y's name all over so he gets the Flak 3) X strikes a deal with Y so Y sends X the billions of isk (should be more than 3.5b isk/year to iron out the $99/year you're charging) 4) You can't sue the friend since he doesn't know about EVE EULA's and Licences since he plays WOW and since the API's are on the public net, they're considered to be free for all 5) You can't sue Y because it's not his application 6) You can't sue X cos Y is giving X cash out of his own free will 7) They can all pull the 'plausible deniability' trick on you if you try to sue cos none of them will be violating anything
8) Can you spot the flaws in YOUR set-up?
Originally by: CCP Atlas Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope
This is even worse than the business guys! Takes you SIX years to realize that donations and adds are something that could bring CCP's business in danger? Amazing!
One question left: in order to charge people for something, you will have to provide a SERVICE. What is the service you provide? 'The API' is not the right answer since that is free. Or is the general idea to no longer provide the API for free and to make applications have to 'login' to the API in order to use it? This seems the only real reason to me to start charging hard cash for something that has been free before... If this is the case then I guess it will only take someone about 5 minutes before taking out a license and providing his own API for free to others; all the others connect to that guy, no more cost, only donations to the guy providing his own API, guy pays you $99 every year. Everybody happy, no? --- I'm not as bad-ass as some of my corp mates, but I'll pwn you anyway!
-= In God we trust, all the others pay cash =- |
GKO
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:30:00 -
[448]
hey I heard your money sniffling CEO makes funny tweets, let him enjoy that for a bit longer. Of course we will pay whatever fee you put on us to use your excellent software and we would even pay for extending your software with our work because you are busy making money with us.
:ccp:
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Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:31:00 -
[449]
still cant believe it and im stunned in what ccp has turned into
not having all those micro transactions, paying for whatnot turned eve into that special position it had amongst other games and now it completely turning into an nightmare. its insane how you're ruining such a great product. and that i tell you as a customer from very first days of eve BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
GhostKiller1
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:31:00 -
[450]
how about instead of figuring out ways to charge players and developers more money to play eve effectively, you figure out what the hell is wrong with the server after the latest ddos attack, that causes my client to crash when trying to do anything significant other than ratting???
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:35:00 -
[451]
This is just another form of microtransactions. Something that will require the player to pay to get an edge or advantage. Try to imagine playing EVE without EFT or EVE-Mon or jump planners. It isnÆt pretty.
CCP should be the ones paying these app developers because these apps should already be part of the game. Things like EFT. CCP should have developed them and didn't. As a result EVE is incomplete as a stand alone and requires outside apps to be played correctly.
-Windjammer
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Valtis Thermalion
Caldari Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:36:00 -
[452]
Edited by: Valtis Thermalion on 15/06/2011 21:36:32 So, seeing how some third party forums like failheap challenge or kug.utsumen use ads in one form or another to support themselves, what are you going to do if or rather when they refuse to pay you $100 per year? By this licence agreement, they would require the commercial licence, but I'm not sure you could actually do anything about it if they refuse to pay. You could probably try to sue them, but a) I'm sure the forums would be protected by freedom of speech (corporations can't exactly demand people to pay them if they discuss about their products) and b) even if you could successfully sue them, enjoy the ****storm when the news spread about this big corporation suing fan sites over $100 dollars. This would make the rules fairly unenforceable.
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Aidia Nestor
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:37:00 -
[453]
Edited by: Aidia Nestor on 15/06/2011 21:38:16
Originally by: Alpheias CCP, don't bite the hand that feeds you. You need us more than we need you.
+1
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Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:40:00 -
[454]
My suggestion would be to drop this project and spend the time and resources you were going to use for it, on inventing time travel back to a time before this was announced.But that's just me. Grendell ♥
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:40:00 -
[455]
The most amazing thing about this is that it will get them what, maybe a grand or two a year? Is it worth making your game substantially worse (because without 3rd party ap support, this game is much worse) for that little? It's mind blowing.
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Selene D'Celeste
Caldari The D'Celeste Trading Company ISK Six
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:40:00 -
[456]
CCP should have a hard look at the people who handle PR and the flow of information. When large numbers of completely untrained individuals recognize you're doing it wrong, it's time to get new employees. ______________________________
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:41:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Valtis Thermalion enjoy the ****storm when the news spread about this big corporation suing fan sites over $100 dollars. This would make the rules fairly unenforceable.
Lucasarts are widely despised and loathed for doing exactly this.
By the way CCP, What SOE did to SWG: that's an example to be learned from not an example to be emulated.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
PewvPew
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:42:00 -
[458]
Uhhhh... How about "No".
No, I will not be paying CCP to provide development services. No, I will not be paying to add value to their product by creating meta-service functionality. No, I will not charge the users of my software real money to re-coup the costs CCP is imposing.
Most of the valuable Eve 3-rd party software is being developed & maintained for free. Charging these developers real money for this "privilege" is a quite simply a non-starter, and you should have known that already.
What problem exactly are you trying to solve here?!! Are there too many developers providing services/functionality CCP will not or cannot provide themselves? I am at a loss for what is driving this policy suggestion.
If there is a valid reason/problem you are trying to solve... and this attack on your development community is the *only* avenue you can use to solve it... I would suggest that you only seek to re-coup fees in ISK currency (1m ISK for a commercial license) This fee would/could then be passed through to the end user by each developer.
Honestly, any more intrusion by CCP into the services offered by the development community turns into more of a land grab. and if you go there you might as well be offering a reach around... and i better get a kiss first.
On a personal note, your BD guys are F*#@*tards... they should have anticipated this reaction.
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Grillmeister Grim
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:43:00 -
[459]
Is there a new management or why all the sh!t recently? |
Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:44:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Valtis Thermalion Edited by: Valtis Thermalion on 15/06/2011 21:36:32 So, seeing how some third party forums like failheap challenge or kug.utsumen use ads in one form or another to support themselves, what are you going to do if or rather when they refuse to pay you $100 per year? By this licence agreement, they would require the commercial licence, but I'm not sure you could actually do anything about it if they refuse to pay. You could probably try to sue them, but a) I'm sure the forums would be protected by freedom of speech (corporations can't exactly demand people to pay them if they discuss about their products) and b) even if you could successfully sue them, enjoy the ****storm when the news spread about this big corporation suing fan sites over $100 dollars. This would make the rules fairly unenforceable.
CCP can contact the host or service provider threatening legal action if they don't shut those sites down. CCP has legal claims to their IP and infringement means they can in most situations get companies to 'play ball' and shut down people when they make the threat. Some won't bend over but given enough threats, contact from a lawyer and finally a legal case being filed even more will comply.
As far as bad press goes I'm sure they'd cling to the notion of protecting their IP and people were abusing their IP. They'd say they offered a reasonable system to allow fan sites to operate but 'so and so' wouldn't comply and refused to comply with their requests.
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Alexi Blue
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:45:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Selene D'Celeste CCP should have a hard look at the people who handle PR and the flow of information. When large numbers of completely untrained individuals recognize you're doing it wrong, it's time to get new employees.
Well Hilmar thinks you are all a bunch of whiners so ... ---
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LeviUK
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:45:00 -
[462]
$99 for what?
But you know, since your legal docs arnt even spell checked and have self voiding clauses - I'll give you a hint, no charge!
I'm not gonna be paying you anything, your icons and thumbnails are covered by fair use. Your logo and name arnt worth anything anyway, so I wont be using that while you drag your names through the mud.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:48:00 -
[463]
Actually, I think I get what's going on.
No one there actually plays EVE. Or at least the business team and management. So they don't know that the game is basically not playable without these 3rd party aps. To us players, these aps are what make the game functional. But to the management and business team, they're useless leeches.
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Tommy Lee Jones
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:48:00 -
[464]
I understand the goal as very reasonable. Allow developers to have the chance to make some decent money selling nifty eve apps utilising the eve service outside of donations ala app markets if those devs wanted to.
The consumers of the apps are angry because this might lead to them paying for something which is currently free if the developer chose to start charging for their app or that the developers might be forced to pay for licensing changing the current modus operandi of app development community.
It seems like if it is true that devs were excited at the possibility of professionally working on apps and charging for them, the provision should be put in place for that whilst not changing how free apps are operated. I have no problem with devs wanting to charge for their apps since it is up to the consumer if they pay for it and at that point, the ccp license should be charged.
In short, I believe you sent a very specific message to a very wide audience (99.99% are app consumers who currently enjoy a free buffet). They feel threatened by the premise of paying for things which are currently free either by developers wanting a slice of cake for their efforts or being forced to charge in order to meet licence costs. Obviously the latter is nasty but the former is fine since that is the right of the developer under such a system.
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:50:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Also what baffles me: free open source is DEAD in EvE.
Back then when I had my first problems with the Mac client I was thinking about putting together a mini Linux distribution to run EVE and making it public...
Then I saw the multitude of rules to join the testserver Then I saw the hassle of installing the test server client Then I saw how petitions were treated Then I saw how bug reports were treated Then I saw how forum feedback was treated Then I saw how "excellency" got poured over paying customers Then I saw the Buddy Program banhammer threats Then I saw the $99 "let's butt**** sparetime developers" joke And yes, I had a look at the lousy API, too.
Guess what? I didn't even care to try to install EVE on a Linux machine. CCP software isn't worth my time. Yet the drama is -- it's pretty excellent to spectate a company rushing downhill for a lousy PLEX per month! And despite getting told over and over they obviously don't get ****. The user is to blame as he's just a paying cow. Moo!
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Edisonn Trent
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:51:00 -
[466]
In before CCP offers EULA-legal bots for 99$ a year.
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Smoking Blunts
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:51:00 -
[467]
Edited by: Smoking Blunts on 15/06/2011 21:51:25 i seam to remember a time when ccp were cool and acted like they gave a dam about this game and its customers.
today i got reminded that now days they are just milking the old cash cow before it dies
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:52:00 -
[468]
This is probably a subtle push to get rid of the current 3rd party apps since CCP earns nothing from them.
1) Release API and let people code for you
2) After several open source projects are well established and widely used, start charging not only for API, but for any service and lay down incredibly restrictive rules and charges.
3) Wait for popular 3rd parties to drop development due to the ridiculous cost/effort you forced on them.
4) Take the open source, modify it a little, and then license it.
5) Charge for use, with no competition but a massive dependance.
6) proffittttttt
7) kill your game
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Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:54:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Smoking Blunts Edited by: Smoking Blunts on 15/06/2011 21:51:25 i seam to remember a time when ccp were cool and acted like they gave a dam about this game and its customers.
today i got reminded that now days they are just milking the old cash cow before it dies
+1
so true BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Aidia Nestor
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:55:00 -
[470]
I love creating webapps I love that ingame browser is based on chromium
.. but to pay $99/year for income that might or might not happen? No thanks. That would be a really good reason to do more interesting stuff than EVE.
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flakeys
The Great cornholio's
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:56:00 -
[471]
Sup with all the reall cash threads last days CCP?
Someone threw some DUST in your eyes wich showed a good cashcow?
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Josef Huffenpuff
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:56:00 -
[472]
Sorry CCP - this is B***sh*t
US$99 is FAR FAR FAR too much.
I've written two significantly large web apps that use the API. They weren't written for money but I gratefully accept donations from anyone who uses them. So far I've made about 1 Bill from them. Yeah, thats peanuts.
Frankly US$99 for 1 Bill means you can stick future development where the sun doesn't shine. There's no way I will pay anything like that much.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:58:00 -
[473]
Can I have also some of the stuff you folks are smoking?
Must be really good sh't.
Chasing away your most loyal and valuable resources. That is just so ******ed that it is funny again, lol.
You don't lose a single penny if some folks are earning a few bucks with some EVE-Apps. Instead you get extra free advertisement.
FREE LICENSE FOR EVERYONE! |
Assimil8r
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:58:00 -
[474]
Edited by: Assimil8r on 15/06/2011 22:03:23 So it sounds like EVEMon, EFT etc. will continue to have free access to the API because they're free tools. Great.
But if the sites that host these apps use adverts to cover their hosting costs, they suddenly have to pay the $99 fee? Or if I donate ISK - even 1 ISK cent - to one of the EVEMon devs as thanks, that dev suddenly has to pay 99 bucks?
What's wrong with declaring "if you sell an application or service that makes use of the EVE API for real money, you need to pay CCP X% of your profits"? That way, free tools stay free, 3rd-party devs keep developing, and the only people who have to cough up are those who actually profit from killboards or the like... which is no-one. Hence I fail to see any merit AT ALL in the idea of charging to use the API.
If the intention is to stop RMT, then you should've stated that as the first point in your blog post, and then you should have used the post to discuss how a $99 fee is going to combat RMT.
And no dev is going to start charging real money for his/her app because (a) 99% of 3rd-party apps for EVE contain functionality that really should be baked into the client, (b) no-one is going to pay for that functionality because they're used to getting it for free, (c) if an app is monetized, someeone else will just make a free app to replace it.
No-one wins here CCP, especially not you. Dump this pathetic idea like roasted dog ****.
Also, get it out of your heads that EVE players are going to subsidise DUST and the related PS3 licensing fees - because we ain't. DUST is your problem, not ours, if you need funding for it, I suggest you look elsewhere.
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YourFault
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Posted - 2011.06.15 21:59:00 -
[475]
hey Zymurgist can i have the phone number of your pusher ? good stuff out there
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Soden Rah
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:00:00 -
[476]
Will you please....
for the love of whatever gods you sacrifice too...
Post some dev blogs and answers to questions for the patch coming out in 5 days.
Instead of posting more stuff for people to get worked up about that's coming out some time After the patch happening in 5 days...
How is it that this thread gets monitored and has the devblog updated to reflect feedback... while the countless threads on Incarna... which have I mentioned is coming out in 5 days.... get nothing .....
Please focus on one thing at a time.... Focus on the patch you are about to release... And Answer our damn questions... PLEASE....
Incarna is one of the most... Longest anticipated features, to come to eve... You are treating it like some censured love child you want to get out of the way without anyone noticing...
Stop posting Pie eyed, idiotic ideas about the different ways you can screw us out of our money, until after you have sorted out what you are about to inject into TQ.
I am sorry, but much as I generally admire your work, Incarna is catastrophically badly designed, and your communication on the subject has been abysmal.
We desperately need that to change, and you have very little time left in which to do it.
__________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
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Amber Villaneous
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:01:00 -
[477]
Originally by: Jaddar Edited by: Jaddar on 15/06/2011 21:28:51 First of all, you all seem to have missed the part in which they ask for constructive criticism.
You are completely missing the point. What is the point in "constructively criticizing" an idea that should not exist in the first place?
You don't "constructively criticize" the the dog Shiite on your shoe, you cuss at it, scraape(seriously, sc**** is filtered?) it off and beat the dog that left its shiite on your lawn.
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Zachstar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:05:00 -
[478]
CCP you have your response. Please now say that the plan is cancelled and that you will let the community form a better plan for allowing commercial development of EVE related applications.
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Edisonn Trent
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:08:00 -
[479]
Originally by: Zachstar CCP you have your response. Please now say that the plan is cancelled and that you will let the community form a better plan for allowing commercial development of EVE related applications.
Yeah, that's gonna happen
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Judy BigShot
Big Shot - For the Bounty Hunters
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:09:00 -
[480]
Edited by: Judy BigShot on 15/06/2011 22:12:10 Sorry for trolling. But I got a very good idea for your "Biz Dev": Just extend the downtime each day from 30 minutes to 23 hours. -> A lot less bug reports, petitions and so on! -> Servers could go offline for 22 hours a day -> less energy -> Green IT!!! If this idea brought me a job in that team, just pm me!
(edit: rethought the idea...)
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Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:11:00 -
[481]
Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 15/06/2011 22:12:11 When I first heard of this at fanfest, and the talk was only about real money and not isk, I thought it was a good idea. Let the really good developers make money and let me charge my measly 3m isk a month from a small number of people for my refining/mfg calculator and for my Eve Alerts phone app. maybe with the good devs charging money, i would even start making some isk off people who don't want to pay!
I am the world's only poor carebear, because I spend my time often docked up and coding or I let my mining lasers die while coding. I do not even begin to recoup my mining losses on the fees i charge, but the token payments that trickle in now and then do give me a little bit of an ego boost as in "thanks for doing this it's not for nothing" kind of way.
Now I realize I am forced to make my apps free because at 99$ a year is way more than i can ever make in plex off any fees. I can't even make one plex a year off my apps, much less several!
Now, I can't even ask for isk donations!
This is good for everyone who uses my apps -- but now I am paying out-of pocket for domain name, ssl certs, and I can't even make a bit of isk that's only a fraction of what i can make mining the worst rocks on it.
Also i was using free Eve Industrialist accounts as a sort of "thank you" prize for GrieferGeddon (anti-hulkageddon resistance contest that made the eve news) participation because poor as i am from coding instead of mining i had nothing else to give out. Now that they will be free they will also be worthless even as such. Maybe I'll manage to mine enough that i can give out 1m to everyone instead.
I will continue to work on my eve related apps because mining and coding is just what I DO in this game. But i will from now on prioritize mining over coding. I will not allow my mining lasers to die or take weeks away from mining to work on a piece of code I really enjoy. (A day or two at the most)
user restrictions on both my apps will go away soon. (but not too soon -- as I won't be taking time away from mining to fix this)
This is a sad day for me.
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Herr Nerdstrom
Caldari Havoc Violence and Chaos Merciless.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:12:00 -
[482]
Originally by: Judy BigShot Sorry for trolling. But I got a very good idea for your "Biz Dev": Just take extend the downtime each day from 30 minutes to 23 hours. In this 1 hour people cant make enough ISK to "live" from PLEX. -> More people might actually pay again for their accounts! If this idea brought me a job in that team, just pm me!
Not sure what you're talking about, all account subscriptions are paid by RL $$ at some point, so CCP isn't losing any money by including PLEX's in the game.
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Sister Megarea
Sisters of Agony
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:13:00 -
[483]
Well, I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I think this is actually a pretty decent idea. (Far, far better than the Aurum nightmare).
In a nutshell, the API is provided as an 'extra' - It's not needed for in-game play (which is what we pay for), it's certainly not provided for anywhere near all online games - So it's been a rather nice extra for all this time.
If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.
Count me amongst those that really don't have an issue with this.
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Roman Clevik
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:14:00 -
[484]
serious question:
how CCP is supposed to handle and control apps around / enforce payments ?
I hope you hired tons of very good international lawyers, because I will laugh very very hard when/if I will receive a mail from Iceland saying I have to pay you for something I developed and I give out free.
Seriously: Biz Devs are a bunch of idiots because this madness could drive CCP in an endless (and very expensive) walk into international law courts that will never ever give CCP the right to ask for such payments.
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Zasx
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 -
[485]
If this takes effect and causes any of the 4 applications I use on a weekly basis to stop updating, go to a fee schedule greater than they currently have, or disappear and or become useless. You can kiss my two accounts good bye. This is also extremely awful news for third party developers most of which do it just for the love of the game. Any charges have been to cover hosting expenses. I have personally been working on a simple android app for calculating hauling and production expenses in my spare time and think I will just discontinue work on it right now. Bad news for players bad news for developers. You guys get enough of my cash every month. Very sad.
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Spartan dax
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 -
[486]
So, people that develops apps for Eve that helps retain your userbase needs to be "encouraged" by paying 99$?
Yeah... uhm..... You're kinda making me lose hope in humanity here. Are you sure your bizdev department aren't the same guys as the bankers that sunk the Icelandic economy? Reread their resumes one more time please.
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Sorakage
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:15:00 -
[487]
Originally by: Herr Nerdstrom
Originally by: Judy BigShot Sorry for trolling. But I got a very good idea for your "Biz Dev": Just take extend the downtime each day from 30 minutes to 23 hours. In this 1 hour people cant make enough ISK to "live" from PLEX. -> More people might actually pay again for their accounts! If this idea brought me a job in that team, just pm me!
Not sure what you're talking about, all account subscriptions are paid by RL $$ at some point, so CCP isn't losing any money by including PLEX's in the game.
It has fail logic in it , that is the idea , as he is imitating CCP logic, I mean lack of...
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Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:16:00 -
[488]
Originally by: Sister Megarea
If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.
So you're ok with there never being any free Eve related apps or websites ever again just so one dude can sell an iPhone skill planner?
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Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:17:00 -
[489]
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
everybody who can do it will put ads, cause it don't cost them anything to do it. but they won't get much money for it...really not much. and isk payments... well it's the goal of eve... why not charging 99$ to gain isk on eve why you are at it ? you want to produce capitals ships ? pay a 99$ licence or else concord will put you red ad eternum. be it IG or OOG making ISK is the same ; it's using your time to make ISK and not real money. i do'nt see why you should pay real money for it. that's ridiculous.
Originally by: THE BLOG 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
i fail to understand why not charging 10$ then. if 10$ or 99$ change nothing for you, then prove it by asking for the lower option. not like people will make billions of $ with that anyway. and if you reall fear that, just ask for a % and not a fee. would be way more fair for both side.
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Ovidia Rhianon
Caldari Mining and Industrial Services Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:18:00 -
[490]
Originally by: Yeep
Originally by: Sister Megarea
If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.
So you're ok with there never being any free Eve related apps or websites ever again just so one dude can sell an iPhone skill planner?
The problem most people, myself included, seem to have with this is the fact that they want to charge $99 for the right to charge ISK or accept donations.
I have no problem whatsoever with them charging a licensing fee for those that wish to charge real life money.
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Cantryyp
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:20:00 -
[491]
So all at once, someone at CCP has managed to find a quantity of money that's large enough to force some to tear down their eve related services and small enough to insult everyone who's ever taken the time to do *anything* to patch the giant information and usability holes the game developers themselves can't or won't close?
A fee to allow someone to profit from providing a service aimed at users of another service? Certainly. Requiring a fee and limiting any payment to the player to be with in game currency is asinine. Until today I had a PI spreadsheet up that could parse wallet transactions to get values for the goods and calculate values on the subsequent teirs the goods produce. It's deleted now, because some random in game competitor might decide to eliminate me by sending me an isk, then mailing CCP about a fake "donation request."
It's also a little sad that you have to lie to your entire user base about how low you can go for that fee, by claiming it'id be less but you need a hundred bucks per credit transaction to verify identity. My $10/month subscription seems to work just fine, and I seem to be able to see my name on my account details just fine. Paypal charges a dollar or so to verify it's accounts, and it even sends that dollar BACK after the transaction has done it's job.
All this for a cash grab from Battleclinic, EVEmon, the guy who made the killboard everyone uses and EFT? $400 worth of fees, assuming they don't raise a finger to your license agreement and spend their time elsewhere. Allow me to Reverse Monetize your carefully constructed Apps and Services Agreement. -$240/year from me is roughly two point four developers needed to balance the books. Any takers?
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Corin en Daire
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:21:00 -
[492]
Edited by: Corin en Daire on 15/06/2011 22:23:29 Edited by: Corin en Daire on 15/06/2011 22:22:19
Quote: CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server
Is this an exclusive list of information sources, meaning that a developer may only legally use information gathered by the above methods? If not, what data is off limits? For example, software has been developed to access information stored within a client's cache files; would simple "read-only" access of the information within these cache files be considered illegal?
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:22:00 -
[493]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 15/06/2011 22:21:52 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVkmr8wk9N8
^ Wouldn't it be fun to have a CCP vs. developers version of this one?
People should charge CCP for any homemade video.
Or better stop doing them due to possible legal consequences.
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:22:00 -
[494]
I find it very, very difficult to filter out my frustration at this time, so the following post is emotionally raw.
You guys at CCP really don't ****ing get it, do you.
We don't play EVE Online, your product, your bread and butter and sole source of income until World of Darkness and Dust 514 come online, because you're great; these last three years have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that CCP is anything but great.
Players don't make these tools on the grounds of making money (though compensation for website operational costs and ISK donations are a fair place to make up some of the difference). Players make these tools for the game because the SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN EVE ONLINE are the GLUE THAT HOLDS THIS HALF-ASSED EXPERIENCE TOGETHER! You know the EVE China phenomenon? Your bull**** stinks so hard by now that people are willing to drop everything they have on Tranquility just to get away from those ****ING MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THIS HORRIBLE WASTE OF RESOURCES THAT INCARNA HAS TURNED OUT TO BE. We're only STILL HERE because of some SHRED of goodwill to the game and the experiences we have together.
AND NOW YOU THINK THAT ITS THE RIGHT TIME TO MAKE MONEY OFF THE PEOPLE TRYING TO FILL IN THE GAPS IN YOUR ****TY MMORPG?
Who is the ******* who decided to try to monetize everything about EVE Online to the detriment of the experience? Who is the bastard in charge of the corporate greed brigade at CCP, blind to everything good about CCP and EVE Online and incapable of seeing anything but dollar signs in front of their eyes? Who is the ******* who didn't step in to say "no, this will hurt EVE Online?" Either way, congratulations; you are fast tracking EVE Online to extinction. You've extinguished almost all enthusiasm people have for EVE Online as a hobby. EVE Online may be addicting, and the social web may be unique to EVE, but at the end of the day, nobody here needs you. Hell, at this rate, EVE Online won't even BELONG to you for long; Electronic Arts will be able to buy the game and Intellectual Property up in no time at all.
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Hilmar Veigar Petursson
Gallente Crowd Control Productions Games
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:22:00 -
[495]
I reject this product and/or service.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
should of course be...
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? No, services for in-game currency will only require a (free) non-commercial license.
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:23:00 -
[496]
How about fixing spaceships first instead of all this polished ***gotery, -3 accounts if this continue's. Fix Black Ops: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1204416 |
Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:23:00 -
[497]
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 15/06/2011 22:24:45
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 15/06/2011 22:12:11
Also i was using free Eve Industrialist accounts as a sort of "thank you" prize for GrieferGeddon (anti-hulkageddon resistance contest that made the eve news) participation because poor as i am from coding instead of mining i had nothing else to give out. Now that they will be free they will also be worthless even as such. Maybe I'll manage to mine enough that i can give out 1m to everyone instead.
I will continue to work on my eve related apps because mining and coding is just what I DO in this game. But i will from now on prioritize mining over coding. I will not allow my mining lasers to die or take weeks away from mining to work on a piece of code I really enjoy. (A day or two at the most)
user restrictions on both my apps will go away soon. (but not too soon -- as I won't be taking time away from mining to fix this)
This is a sad day for me.
If it makes you feel any better, there won't BE any more hulkageddon either if they do this.
I'm not willing to pay 99 dollars to provide content for THEM to make more money off of either.
EVE online is a crap game with no content beyond the content that WE, the PLAYERS, generate.
Nobody plays EVE for their s h i t PvE content, or "balanced" PvP content.
People only come to this game for the stories. We are the people that make the stories, we are the people that create the content that pays for CCPs rent.
This disrespect and stupidity will need to end soon, or there will be no more stories.
Ever.
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Khavi Kitamatsu
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:24:00 -
[498]
Originally by: Sister Megarea Well, I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I think this is actually a pretty decent idea. (Far, far better than the Aurum nightmare).
In a nutshell, the API is provided as an 'extra' - It's not needed for in-game play (which is what we pay for), it's certainly not provided for anywhere near all online games - So it's been a rather nice extra for all this time.
If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.
Count me amongst those that really don't have an issue with this.
I have a problem with it. CCP barely tries to stop botting. Instead they waste time, money, and resources on this. If they put as much effort into stopping botting, more people would actually have to "pay" to play. Instead botters macro, makes billions of ISK, and it cost them nothing to play. It also ruins the economy of the players that do not cheat or bot.
Maybe if CCP put as much effort into stopping botting I might be interested in their ideal...as it is now - nope.
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Alijah Mercer
Caldari King Wholesaling
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:25:00 -
[499]
Sorry if this is a repost, something screwed up while trying to post.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
A. Does it really matter what we think? (This, and the results of it, indicates that what we have to say doesn't really matter: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1513581)
B. In order to entertain the absurd idea that it does matter, here is a few thoughts.
Quote:
# CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server. # To become a licensee, developer must enter into a commercial license agreement with CCP. The fee for a commercial license is $99, payable annually by credit card or wire transfer (for identification purposes). We do not require further payments from developer or royalties. Quote:
Was loot export removed so you could start charging for it? Seems pretty ****y if thats the end result. Other than that, The idea of COMMERCIAL applications being welcome for eve is a good one I guess. Though I'd suggest you're hurting your "community" concepts that you desire with this move. But that will remain to be seen.
Quote:
Developer can choose how they monetize their app or service, provided that they conform with the EVE EULA and ToS. Examples of monetization could be donations, one-time purchase, in-app purchase, subscriptions or ad-supported sites or apps.
While I understand that if you allowed "donations" to happen without paying the $99 fee that people would likely take advantage of it, I absolutely HATE the idea that you are considering requiring a fee for donation services/apps. Is there no better solution?
Quote: For ad-supported ventures, we require that licensed applications or services not be associated with ISK selling/buying, macros or bots. An example of unacceptable monetization would be accepting Google AdWords from sites violating our EULA and ToS. (this is essentially similar to our terms for fansites)
You have to reduce or eliminate the add based income. Some area's you simply can not enforce for example web providers who put their own adds on web pages in trade for free hosting can not be controlled by the gamer on some corp web pages. Further, the advertisements posted on a corp or alliance web site may not even support the site let alone your fee. You need to reconsider the add portion of this and figure out a better solution. I'd say you eliminate this one completely. You implied in an earlier post that there are legality issues. Figure them out, this is a problem.
Quote: CCP may at its discretion, list developers' application or service, and provide other publicity.
Okay.
Quote: We will continue to provide technical assistance via the Technology Lab forum and IRC channel, but CCP does not offer formal technical support to developers or warrant the API in any way. It's provided as is.
If you are going to charge for access to a service then you shouldn't offer it "as is." You damn well should offer solid customer support. If a developer pays 100 bucks and you decide to shut down, alter, or otherwise mess with the API in a way that costs the developer money you should provide services for quick fix solutions. After all this is commercialized now you shouldn't be running it like it's a bunch of back yard programmers anymore or a passive part of the CCP business plan. It's not just a favor to us anymore once you start charging for it, it's a service.
cont...
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SirHarryPierce
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:26:00 -
[500]
Luckily I made my own tools :).
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:27:00 -
[501]
Here it comes!
Have a good day, CCP.
You thrashed 6 months of my work.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Alijah Mercer
Caldari King Wholesaling
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:28:00 -
[502]
Quote: Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license?
No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.
This is what I was talking about above. What if there is advertisements on these corporation and alliance websites? The advertised base support needs to be rethought.
Quote: Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
This is stupid and unenforceable. If I host at yahoo.com or some other stupid place they have adds on the pages because the hosting is free. Now you're telling me I have to pay you 100.00 to keep my corp site up in this situation. Once again for stress, you need to rethink the add portion of this situation.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
This is complete BS and without ethics of any kind as has been clearly stated so many times prior to this messages. The money in game is legally good for ONLY the economy in the game. You should not be charging any fee what-so-ever for a product or service which only extends the "sandbox" model by charging administrative fees based in currency that is in the mythical world.
There is no difference in the "sandbox" model between the programmer who builds a website and charges isk for access (like eve-commander.com) and the Charon pilot who charges for hauling freight from one location to another. The API is not costing you THAT much extra to maintain. Hell even World of Warcraft offers free access to most of their API stuff and Bliz is some of the most money hungry pigs on the planet. (You really want that rep too?)
Quote: Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
As mentioned above, this is complete crap. Unfortunately I don't know a good fix to keep it from being abused, but it's BS and you really need to get some heads together on this to see if you can come up with a reasonable solution. Having to do this is as bad as charging for "free apps" The amount of people that actually donate is likely to be very low.
In addition, if it's isk donations it certainly should not require a commercial license for the same reasons as above.
Quote: Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
While I'm certainly glad that this is the case, can you not see the idiocy in not allowing someone to charge real cash for in game services while you charge some one real cash for charging in game cash for services? What kind of messed up thinking is that?
Quote: Why charge for the license at all?
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant. We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee is low enough to not dissuade serious developers from participating in the program.
the fact that this is as "low as possible" is a blatant lie. You specifically said and I'll quote again for you, "we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant." If that was your primary concern you could do it for a damn dollar and demand a credit card. Can you smell whats being shoveled in this reply?
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:28:00 -
[503]
This really sucks and makes you look greedy money grubbing (fill in some string of words that these forums will filter). So basically your going to force no one to release apps to the public and you will KILL a great part of EVE.
I do not like any part of it, if I do anything to cover my cost of time, servers, etc, you want me to pay you to make your spreadsheet online easier.
POS-Tracker 3.0 Hosting |
Cylis Veredant
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:29:00 -
[504]
More proof that MMO Devs don't actually play their games.
Great News for 3rd Party Devs, CCP hates you.
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Jessy Mastriani
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:31:00 -
[505]
to require commercial license for 3rd party software that's uses inn-game payment or donations is a bad idea. many of the donation driven fansites already goes whit a deficit. and if you need to identify the persons behind the servis connect them to inn-game characters. |
Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:33:00 -
[506]
Originally by: Zasx I have personally been working on a simple android app for calculating hauling and production expenses in my spare time and think I will just discontinue work on it right now.
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten i will from now on prioritize mining over coding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oq2oxt7Nrxo
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Woodman2
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:34:00 -
[507]
Holy crap, reading through these comments it's clear to me that 99% of you didn't bother to read the dev blog.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:36:00 -
[508]
Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 15/06/2011 22:36:25
Looks odd to say the least.
Really, either the blog is that badly written or you're even more insane than I could have suggested. ---
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?
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Vladimir Ilych
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:38:00 -
[509]
CCP
Your community / customers don't want your new business license and monetizing policy and don't want MT
Stop now. If not, read you subs numbers in 12 months and don't tell us we didn't warn you.
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Jaddar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:39:00 -
[510]
Edited by: Jaddar on 15/06/2011 22:39:38
Originally by: Woodman2 Holy crap, reading through these comments it's clear to me that 99% of you didn't bother to read the dev blog.
+1
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Evelgrivion
Gunpoint Diplomacy
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:39:00 -
[511]
"Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way."
What a crock of ****. If your goal was to empower third party developers, you'd be approaching people to license the development of full suites of game enriching features like minigames for Incarna, or perhaps a full Civilization styled 4x strategy game for the Planetary Interaction feature. Other possibilities include Skins for EVE Online ships (which could be sold as Microtransactions in game), and other things of that nature. Incentivization? Don't make me laugh; aside from a few smartphone applications that you decided to give DAS BOOT on a few years ago, there's no real room to make money with EVE Online's API. The API is far too limited to produce any product of real commercial value on the PC, let alone for a web application.
Something stinks, hard, about this explanation.
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RasTrent
Private Nuisance Segregati0n
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:41:00 -
[512]
The third party developers and service providers go out of their way and spend hundreds of hours making apps which assist the community making this game which has a renowned learning curve easily accessed, or service providers like Chribba who have supplied the community with such things as Eve-Files which hosts many videos of the game which are linked out and subsequently gain your company new subscribers, as does Hulkageddon, and other such player created communal events. Enforcing such a policy will in turn drive these people away who are helping the community grow stronger.
We understand that CCP is a business and businesses need to earn money (that is totally fine, i pay my subscriptions we all do). But for the sake of the players in the community please go about this in a more honest fashion. Simple as "don't bite the hand that feeds you". There are other ways CCP could gain revenue such as crack down on the RMT issues... blah blah beating a dead badger into the asteroid here. -----
One awesome image per signature. ♥ Zymurgist http://rastrent.srslywtf.com/I MAEK BLOG |
Myxx
Atropos Group
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:41:00 -
[513]
this is probably going to trash a good number of third party developers as is, can't be a good move, CCP. --
Originally by: CCP Explorer (and if you guys would also stop using Drakes it would be really appreciated, kthxbye).
Originally by: Tom Gerard
Then again... I am a moron.
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Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:42:00 -
[514]
Originally by: cerbus I do feel for the people at CCP sometimes, they are infact Human.
but still...
If you feel for them Buy them a matching drool cup for their helmets in the money store......
Can we change thee name of the game from Eve Online to Wallet Vacuum Online?
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Wollari
Phoenix Industries Saints Amongst Sinners
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:42:00 -
[515]
I'm just really think If I really should write my opinion and start raging about the ignorance from CCP again.
I'm very very disappointed.
Why the hell did I spend my time in Island on the fanfest trying to discuss the exact problems in the Dev Track Roundtable while all my concerns have been completely ignored. There's basically NO CHANGE compared to what you've told on fanfest.
Why did it take so long to this announcement when NOTHING changed compared to your first idea discussed at fanfest. Absolutely nothing and even community destroying with far more grayish areas.
I guess every little blog writer who's putting ads on his page and using CCP's images must have a 99$ license. Don't tell me you want don't wanna make money? In which world is CCP living?
I've no problem to pay 99$ if i would like to sell a premium service or real application for real money. But I don't like the idea for charging money for donations (as long as they're not affiliated with services after you donated only) or web advertisements.
Every $thing that generates real money on my page makes me a commercial entities? * Links to GTC Seller (where you get a small part of your redirect sells) * Links to CCP's own affiliate program where you get $$$ for every new customer who registered through your link?
What about the fansite program/listing? * On the one side CCP is happy to have a great community and offers them Fansite Fanfest Badges, etc, etc while charging them for 99$ so they actually are allowed to provide their service?
While all this hate and rage, I still have to think about the topic from the #eve-dev IRC channel. "We don't actually play eve"
Why should I pay a 2nd subscription fee for a game that I don't actually play cause I spend more time developing and providing a great service for the whole community.
Basically the big sites and tools which are created by the community are generating more new customers, customer satisfaction (cause players can easier achieve their goals in Eve) and revenue @ CCP than any other advertising campaign in your local gaming magazine...
I'm sorry. If you really want to lose your best community and supporters you got then you're on the right "dev track". Did you ever have listened to the community in this regard or do you just listen to your Biz Department which seems to be completely unfamiliar with the word "community" and the reality in general.
I guess I should stop here ... You haven't listen to the feedback on the fanfest, why want you listen to the feedback in this "Hate Thread".
Waste of time
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Daionnis
Caldari Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:42:00 -
[516]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 15/06/2011 22:24:45
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 15/06/2011 22:12:11
Also i was using free Eve Industrialist accounts as a sort of "thank you" prize for GrieferGeddon (anti-hulkageddon resistance contest that made the eve news) participation because poor as i am from coding instead of mining i had nothing else to give out. Now that they will be free they will also be worthless even as such. Maybe I'll manage to mine enough that i can give out 1m to everyone instead.
I will continue to work on my eve related apps because mining and coding is just what I DO in this game. But i will from now on prioritize mining over coding. I will not allow my mining lasers to die or take weeks away from mining to work on a piece of code I really enjoy. (A day or two at the most)
user restrictions on both my apps will go away soon. (but not too soon -- as I won't be taking time away from mining to fix this)
This is a sad day for me.
If it makes you feel any better, there won't BE any more hulkageddon either if they do this.
I'm not willing to pay 99 dollars to provide content for THEM to make more money off of either.
EVE online is a crap game with no content beyond the content that WE, the PLAYERS, generate.
Nobody plays EVE for their s h i t PvE content, or "balanced" PvP content.
People only come to this game for the stories. We are the people that make the stories, we are the people that create the content that pays for CCPs rent.
This disrespect and stupidity will need to end soon, or there will be no more stories.
Ever.
I have to call shenanigans, bro.
I play EVE for the PVE. I love shooting the pirate ships that spawn one wave after another. I love feeling like a spaceborne god when I slaughter thousands of ships a day. I love raking in the money as a result. Incursions are awesome; I can't get enough of them, and the friends that I meet in the public channels while doing the Incursions are a great bonus!
PVP? I may be in a PVP corp in a 0.0 PVP alliance, but I can't PVP to save my life. I mean, I have a few cheap kills from my stealth bomber, when I just so happened to land on a red frigate gang on a gate. Bombs away! But, aside from that, my killboard's efficiency rating is so far into the red that only solo killing a faction-fit carrier could bring it back up.
It ****es me off to see bitter old veterans like you say stuff like "Waaaaaah the game is breaking because CCP wants to X, which is mutually exclusive to what I want it to be with Y, woe is meeeeeeee!".
But, in the end? I don't give two craps. So a few hundred people will leave the game. Not a single thing will be lost. TEST Alliance will still be here. NC will still be here. So will Goons, Red Alliance, IRC, PL, etc. The game doesn't revolve around how you react to a damned devblog.
By the way, you pay for monthly internet, monthly phone/cellular, monthly EVE subscriptions (If you don't make that PLEX in time, that is), monthly water/sewage/electricity/cable, you pay for your grocery trips, home payments, car payments, etc.
What's $99 USD a year to anyone? Let's do some math here: $99 / 12 months = $8.25
That's less than a WoW subscription. Way, way less. In fact, I don't think there's a game on the market with a monthly pay rate that costs that little. I could be wrong, though.
Suck it up. If you don't like it, you can always switch to WoW. I hear it's easier. Less tears.
TL;DR Less QQ, moar pew pew
BTW, if you end up quitting, I'll totally have your stuffs.
DIAF haters.
-Shaddz
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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:43:00 -
[517]
The way this dev blog reads, with the horrible grammar they use reads as follows.
If you are a third party developer, ie killboards, websites, and other stuff. YOU the developer, can charge money for your services, as long as you pay ccp 99 a year.
You must pay this fee though if you do one of the following.
Ask for donations to support your site. Have eve online banners Any links to eve online sites.
Also it seems to read, if you do none of those, you are ok and they cannot charge you. Oh and if you use google, shame on you.
so here is my thing.
WHAT THE HOLY **** ARE YOU GUYS DOING??
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5n4keyes
Sacred Templars RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:45:00 -
[518]
From reading the dev blog and some posts in this forum, it seams clear that many third party services will simply stop after this planned change.
Many services, such a char monitors, and killboards, rely on adverts to cover server costs, knowing some of these providers, I know that several dip into there own pockets to cover the cost of such services.
Asking for $99 to be fair is a joke, and the money token for CCP, for what seams like no extra support, no extra services, to basically continue with what they are currently getting.
That being said, If CCP was to provide a service purely for third party providers, which these sites can then use, maybe to get better API, or more services, then this is worth paying for. Im not sure exactly what could be added, but im sure there are many things API wise that say 10 apps could grab, which say 300,000 accounts would overload, or would never ever need.
Eve's third party services are what makes this game, the killboards, the char monitors, even the map sites, all would be seriously harmed if charged, to be honest, these sites should become partners, rather than customers, take a leaf from youtube, and partner these services, dont harm the services.
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Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:47:00 -
[519]
Originally by: Helicity Boson Edited by: Helicity Boson on 15/06/2011 22:24:45
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 15/06/2011 22:12:11
Also i was using free Eve Industrialist accounts as a sort of "thank you" prize for GrieferGeddon (anti-hulkageddon resistance contest that made the eve news) participation because poor as i am from coding instead of mining i had nothing else to give out. Now that they will be free they will also be worthless even as such. Maybe I'll manage to mine enough that i can give out 1m to everyone instead.
I will continue to work on my eve related apps because mining and coding is just what I DO in this game. But i will from now on prioritize mining over coding. I will not allow my mining lasers to die or take weeks away from mining to work on a piece of code I really enjoy. (A day or two at the most)
user restrictions on both my apps will go away soon. (but not too soon -- as I won't be taking time away from mining to fix this)
This is a sad day for me.
If it makes you feel any better, there won't BE any more hulkageddon either if they do this.
I'm not willing to pay 99 dollars to provide content for THEM to make more money off of either.
EVE online is a crap game with no content beyond the content that WE, the PLAYERS, generate.
Nobody plays EVE for their s h i t PvE content, or "balanced" PvP content.
People only come to this game for the stories. We are the people that make the stories, we are the people that create the content that pays for CCPs rent.
This disrespect and stupidity will need to end soon, or there will be no more stories.
Ever.
Thank you, sir! On the grounds that "the enemy of the enemy is my friend" I think we can stand together with common ground on this one.
But no, i would not want to see Hulkageddon gone in this way because of this or any other ccp silliness of this nature. I agree that the stories of eve are what make it great, and there are no stories in this. "ccp decided to be WoW in space or STO online and then it died" is not a good story. I would like you to learn the error of your ways, or at least a future Hulkageddon defeated by mobilizing the carebear majority of this game. That would be a good story.
See.. as much as I would have liked to be known for eve-related applications and services like the carebears I admire (one of whom quit!), I'm just not that good of a developer. GrieferGeddon was getting me a lot of attention I enjoyed, but I know full well that since it is a reactionary event to your event rather than an actual innovation, which your event is, it and the attention it gives me depends entirely on you. I would even say it (and you) gave me my 15 minutes of eve-fame.
Without GrieferGeddon AND without coding my applications while mining, eve might as well be a single-player game for me!
I fully support ccp's 99$ fee for anyone wanting to charge real money -- and real money only -- for their apps. Isk fees that are under 99$ worth of plex or voluntary donations should not be included.
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Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:49:00 -
[520]
So, we have a wee bit of a threadnaught on our hands, gentlemen. I've been bombed with queries about this from concerned parties -- I picked a bad day to get the summer crud...
Unfortunately, CSM was not given a preview of this devblog. If we had been, these would have been my suggestions:
* Explain the real purpose of the $99 fee. I assume that it is to establish a valid contract that attempts to indemnify CCP against harm if the licensee gets sued, and/or cover the contract issuance costs for both the commercial and non-commercial licensees. If there is an overwhelming legal consideration that requires you to charge for certain types of licenses, explain this clearly.
* If the reason for the $99 fee is just to cover your licensing costs, then you are being penny-wise and pound-foolish. Each extra app that gets developed because you issue free licenses will result in much more income due to increased retention. "Do not bind the mouths of the kine that tread the grain," as it were.
* If you must charge, then:
* * Differentiate between different classes of licensee; there are probably three: those who charge a RL$ fee, those who accept RL$ donations or sell ads (especially to cover costs), and those who charge in-game fees or accept in-game donations. One price does not fit all, and arguably all but the first should be free or a token ($1).
* * Allow people to upgrade their license, so they can start developing for free, then monetize their app later.
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Jaddar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:52:00 -
[521]
The summary of all these pages of... comments is this:
- we have no problem paying 99$ / year for a license as long as we make real money selling our applications - we do have a problem paying 99$ / year for a license if we don't make real money selling our applications
Where "selling our applications" means earning real money in exchange for giving people access to use the application.
How can the license terms be changed to have everyone happy? Perhaps there could be multiple licenses, each with different terms for different purposes?
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HeIIfire11
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:52:00 -
[522]
How pathetic.
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Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:53:00 -
[523]
Quote: Starting this summer you will be able to charge people for usage of your applications, websites and services for EVE Online.
I think CCP finally caught on that the Eve community currently supports the private app developer. Wheteher it is with Isk in game or with a small paypal donation. Eve players appreciate the efforts that others have put into developing apps that allow us to do more in the game.
CCP can say this isn't about money grabbing but I personally believe they want another piece of the pie!
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Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:54:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow So, we have a wee bit of a threadnaught on our hands, gentlemen. I've been bombed with queries about this from concerned parties -- I picked a bad day to get the summer crud...
Unfortunately, CSM was not given a preview of this devblog. If we had been, these would have been my suggestions:
* Explain the real purpose of the $99 fee. I assume that it is to establish a valid contract that attempts to indemnify CCP against harm if the licensee gets sued, and/or cover the contract issuance costs for both the commercial and non-commercial licensees. If there is an overwhelming legal consideration that requires you to charge for certain types of licenses, explain this clearly.
* If the reason for the $99 fee is just to cover your licensing costs, then you are being penny-wise and pound-foolish. Each extra app that gets developed because you issue free licenses will result in much more income due to increased retention. "Do not bind the mouths of the kine that tread the grain," as it were.
* If you must charge, then:
* * Differentiate between different classes of licensee; there are probably three: those who charge a RL$ fee, those who accept RL$ donations or sell ads (especially to cover costs), and those who charge in-game fees or accept in-game donations. One price does not fit all, and arguably all but the first should be free or a token ($1).
* * Allow people to upgrade their license, so they can start developing for free, then monetize their app later.
aren't services wich are to be paid by rl cash forbidden by the EULA and TOS? BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Thomas Moebius
Gallente Minelands HELM Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:55:00 -
[525]
Well, can't reread a post earlier here, cause i can't find it...
Oh, can't search this forum.... no working forum search here...
Should use eve search then?
HAVE THEY GET A LICENSE TO PROVIDE A SEARCH FUNCTION FOR CCPS FORUM? OOOOPS!
Have fun guys!
TM
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Jaddar
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:56:00 -
[526]
Originally by: Nooto aren't services wich are to be paid by rl cash forbidden by the EULA and TOS?
They are. That's the whole purpose of this license, to allow payment via real life cash.
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Nitinol
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:56:00 -
[527]
Originally by: MegabitOne
One question left: in order to charge people for something, you will have to provide a SERVICE. What is the service you provide? 'The API' is not the right answer since that is free. Or is the general idea to no longer provide the API for free and to make applications have to 'login' to the API in order to use it? This seems the only real reason to me to start charging hard cash for something that has been free before... If this is the case then I guess it will only take someone about 5 minutes before taking out a license and providing his own API for free to others; all the others connect to that guy, no more cost, only donations to the guy providing his own API, guy pays you $99 every year. Everybody happy, no?
I thought of this too. Someone has already developed a similar proxy. |
Josefine Etrange
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:57:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
Stop charging your customers and you do not have to pay a fee to ccp. Not hard at all, right?
BTW, Atlas, I strongly recommend you establish together with this licence program an app store and hosting service for everyone who wants to use the free licence. For your commercial developers I guess it would be nice if you include isk payment options into the store and if you have coded all this, it would be easy to include a 100 million isk per month donation limited for your hobby developers the community can still say "thank you" to them without much hazel.
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Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.15 22:59:00 -
[529]
Originally by: Jaddar
Originally by: Nooto aren't services wich are to be paid by rl cash forbidden by the EULA and TOS?
They are. That's the whole purpose of this license, to allow payment via real life cash.
according to ccp themself it isnt
"Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services?
No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services." BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:01:00 -
[530]
Edited by: Lederstrumpf on 15/06/2011 23:03:49
Originally by: Jaddar How can the license terms be changed to have everyone happy?
I'm pretty sure the train is gone.
When it comes down to business you don't want an unreliable business person at the other end of the table. We all know license terms can be changed. Upwards, too.
Coming up with half-finished ideas like this kills any incentive to even think about doing the preliminary coding work for any company. This thread and the accompanying blog reminds me of this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KWad26CRCo
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Lederstrumpf
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:07:00 -
[531]
Originally by: Josefine Etrange I strongly recommend you establish together with this licence program an app store and hosting service for everyone who wants to use the free licence.
A HOSTING service run by a company who can't even guarantee 24/7 uptime of their own website? Ha, ha, ha! |
Dom Ahab
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:08:00 -
[532]
WOW WTF IS HAPPENING?!
Does this mean that EVE Search needs to pay a license? CAUSE YOUR PEICE OF **** FORUM DOESN'T HAVE A WORTHWHILE SEARCH FEATURE. There is one very easy solution to this.
All 3rd Party Developers:
Get together! Sign a petition, and send it to CCP. If they go through with it just stop hosting your services! They're going to take control of any app's/services you have the second they can if you license with them. That's the idea. Centralize all the power.
You guys F**king suck. Your game is a BROKE PEICE OF MONKEY DUNG without the 3rd party support, I'm in my second year of Computer Science at the University and I would do better work than the idiots in Iceland, do you backwards guys still use BASIC?!
Read this thread, they don't give a flying f*ck:
Exporting Loot Log http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1513581
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Christos Hendez
Warhamsters Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:10:00 -
[533]
hmmm, confirming that we are adopting EFT as an alliance-only tool and charging 5000000000000 isk per month per person to use it.
Or wait...CCP, wtf are you doing? ----- Russian | English | French
AAA Diplomat WAR.H |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:10:00 -
[534]
Reading this devblog made me physically ****ing sick.
I look forward to having to fork out money to have a PvP record, paying another subscription fee in order to play some EVE Online Holdem, and linking my paypal account to EFT anytime I need to make a fit. Or on the other hand I'll just have to give up on all that stuff like the other 90% of players who don't want anything to do with this scheme. You'll see the developers give up on it eventually as they are paying a yearly fee for a product noone is using.
Most likely though, devs will ignore the fee with a big '**** YOU!' to CCP, have fun fighting dozens of IP cases in the courts against a legion of faceless internet peeps. ...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:11:00 -
[535]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Unfortunately, CSM was not given a preview of this devblog.
This is what we most needed you to tell us, and paradoxically, what we all already knew. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:16:00 -
[536]
Originally by: Vandrion
Quote: Starting this summer you will be able to charge people for usage of your applications, websites and services for EVE Online.
I think CCP finally caught on that the Eve community currently supports the private app developer. Wheteher it is with Isk in game or with a small paypal donation. Eve players appreciate the efforts that others have put into developing apps that allow us to do more in the game.
CCP can say this isn't about money grabbing but I personally believe they want another piece of the pie!
Come to think of it-- this isn't just money grabbing.... I actually think that somewhere down the line they may have designs on taking your intellectual property or slightly changing it so they can say it's theirs and because of that little license agreement that may have a certain fun little clause giving them the right to use and abuse it... More info needed!
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Sarina Rhoda
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:19:00 -
[537]
Edited by: Sarina Rhoda on 15/06/2011 23:19:49 So you are charging people who actualy cover up your mistakes and make this game enjoyable and playable... GJ
A list of tools that i think CCP messed up on by not having somthing similar in game include:
EFT Dotlan Evemon killboard
If had to pay for these tools to make my game work as well as my supscription fees i would de-sub in a heart beat.
also QFT
Originally by:
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Originally by:
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
Food for thought CCP........
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Datsun Achura
Perkone
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:22:00 -
[538]
Originally by: Windjammer BizDev = Marketing. Marketing is the single greatest source for really bad ideas in any corporation IÆve ever been directly involved with, associated with, or studied. The department draws egotistical, self-assured, incompetent idiots like no other department. With that in mind, you really canÆt blame the ôBizDevö department for release of this first draft. Simply put, they should not be held responsible for release of this ôfirst draftö. No one should expect better from them.
God damn ain't that the truth.
Sometimes CCP come across as amateurs who just got really lucky with Eve
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Xia Long
Two Brothers Mining Corp. R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:24:00 -
[539]
First of all thanks to u guys who developed what makes EVE playable, talking of Wollari, Chribba,Kronus and everyone else!!
then just to keep it visible
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Tipsy
Gallente X-Factor Industries Synthetic Existence
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:28:00 -
[540]
*sigh*
CCP has got this wrong by considering 'donation or ad-supported' tools to be commercial rather than charitable.
There are many tools using the EVE IP which are developed by the community for the benefit of the community, which incur ongoing costs, where donations and ads don't even cover the costs of maintenance let alone development, with the extremely remote chance of profit for their creators not even entering their minds.
CCP has responded to the generosity of those that contribute most to the EVE community by proposing to force them to either charge for what they produce, undermining the community spirit, or pay CCP for the privilege of working to add value to their game at an even greater personal cost.
Originally by: CCP Atlas Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope.
It's so tricky to allow that you've been allowing and encouraging it for 8 years. It's such a slippery slope that despite playing this game and reading the forums, news and blogs since beta, I cannot recall a single publicised instance of the EVE IP being misused for commercial gain through donations or ad support.
If someone is using your IP in a way which is not allowed by the EULA and the laws of their country (I don't know how you plan to get around fair use) and you don't like it, ask them to stop. Cut off their service. Sue them if you have to. Those have always been the options open to you, and it's not clear to me how you could enforce this new licensing system without using them.
Ban or sue the people that contribute the most to this community and it will be gone for good. ----------------------------------
Stop, collaborate and listen
- If CCP wants to encourage people to develop software and services for EVE, it should reward them, not charge them money. For example, a semi-annual award for 'Best EVE Online tool', with a cash prize.
- If CCP wants to encourage people to monetise their tools, focus on those people. Give them an 'App Store'-like environment to sell their apps, advertised on the website and in-game. Take a percentage of their sales.
- Getting people to work for you for free for 8 years and then turning around and asking them for money is really, really dumb.
Originally by: CCP Atlas The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement.
If you'd put "THIS IS A VERY ROUGH, FIRST DRAFT, NOT TO BE TAKEN AS POLICY, BLOG - COMMENTS WANTED" at the top (and in the middle, and at the bottom, and possibly on alternate lines) I suspect it would have received a slightly calmer reaction. Instead it seemed clear as a statement of policy and came across as one of CCP's normal announcements, in which it asks for feedback and then is generally felt to do pretty much what it proposed in the first place.
Please think this through. And maybe run things like this past someone outside of Business Development before they go public.
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Holy One
Quiet.Storm
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:31:00 -
[541]
Originally by: Xia Long First of all thanks to u guys who developed what makes EVE playable, talking of Wollari, Chribba,Kronus and everyone else!!
then just to keep it visible
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Only if they seek to profit from it. The non-commercial license is free. Just like anyone else, CCP has to protect it's IP. Licensing is the easiest way to do it. The nominal fee is purely that.
You all moaned like ****y little girls when capsuleer was forced to CAD, now there is a system being proposed which would mean apps like that could legitimately go on sale for practically nothing (assuming you intend to make money). What's the issue?
A few small projects can either stop making money ie. stop advertising or charging for their utilities and genuinely be 'free'. Or pay a nominal fee to obtain a license and be legit and be free to attempt to obtain as much revenue as they like either as profit or for costs etc.
Most businesses do not tolerate third party projects piggy-backing on their IP or resources. CCP has been a bit dizzy in the past to be perfectly honest - they've risked their copyright and other rights by not enforcing a licensing system long before now.
BBQ makes me hungry for more... |
BLACK-STAR
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:31:00 -
[542]
Dropping in.
I say NO. to all of that dev blog. don't care what wall of text you write and edit in a word processor. No and Please don't.
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Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:31:00 -
[543]
Quote: òCCP also allows non-commercial apps and services, subject to simple clickwrap agreement substantially similar to the one that is provided to registered fansites.
Can someone enlighten us as to what this clickwrap agreement is? Does it prohibit ads? Will it interfere with a sites ability to recoup costs at all?
Don't say its a simple agreement and not put it out there for review.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:32:00 -
[544]
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda also QFT
Originally by:
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Originally by:
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
Food for thought CCP........
I QFT your QFT ...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:35:00 -
[545]
So after now having read through various replies, additional discussion with other 3rd party developers, pilots and CCP, and also gotten the chance to wind down a bit from the very sudden message on my phone while I was in the car - 'ccp really has done it now!' here's some additional thoughts.
Note that I direct this to CCP as a company, and not to CCP Atlas or any other member of the bizdev team directly. Also, these are my personal views, I do not speak for others even though I do know that I have others thinking the same things.
Firstly, you seriously need to make a DISTINCT difference of in-game and out-of-game payment/donation/fees. I personally don't see any legitimate reason for me to like pay a license fee in order to run my in-game 3rd-party service that generate me ISK income in-game.
I see reasons to why you for example would want to license me for EVEBoard, after all I am using your API, thus taking data, displaying it on my website "kinda" as my own, but still free for every pilot to use, browse, love or hate. And oh yeah, it does have some Google Adverts that does nudge a bit of the monthly billing I have (and yes I know it's not really a reason since I'm doing this on free will). So, yeah I'd be up for discussion about things like this for sure.
Having had the honor of being with both you and the community since 2003, I have seen EVE grow, and tbh we wouldn't be nowhere where we are today if it wasn't for the tools you provided to us pilots to enable us to create such great things as EFT, EVEMon, dotlan, GTS, EveHQ, spreadsheets and so on.
And I know from my personal developments that I would never have thought about it if the first thing I needed was to pay a license fee. I've launched sites, both successful and sites no one remembers. I would not have been able to try out the failed ones nor enjoyed the success of the living ones if I you hadn't enabled me to give it a shot, fail or not.
With a license, most of any future idea will never become more than just an idea.
I love CCP, to me you are the most awesome gaming company around, you provide your customers with an amazing set of tools, features, experiences, humor and you offer yourselves to your customers like no one else - that is something special, that is what makes your customers loyal, and keep wanting to support your (at times) crazy ideas.
But, scrambling (yeah throwing in some pvp here) the part of the player base that of their own free will wish to push the game further ahead, showing just why OUR game is the best game out there - that is plain stupid.
This said, I must admit that I am still a bit confused what exactly you are looking to achieve with this, it was requested so that we could start charging for things we do for free? Yeah I see the point, but I can't recall seeing much discussion about this being a big wants from 3pd's, and I can only see a handful of direct services that would use this "option".
At least I have no intention of charging the users of my sites, and rather shut down them than forcing the users to pay me to keep it online. But by the looks I still would need a license, since of course I won't say no if someone wants to aid me a bit by donating some money to keep up with the costs of running them... and I'm not the only one.
What I really thing you need to do, is sit down and have a serious discussion with the people this will affect initially, I would like to see myself as such a person, and I'd be happy to pay for my own flight and meet up with you and others to discuss this if that is the problem.
Scrap this draft, invite people to a sane discussion and maybe just start with the topic 'so you want to charge for your <application>, what is the best way to do it?' (and yes I admit that I didn't follow this Dev Track thing, and not sure if it was a discussion or presentation, but regardless, it needs to be redone).
Sorry for the wall-o.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | in-game 'Holy Veldspar' Now /w voice |
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Slave Poor
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:36:00 -
[546]
CCP are serious? $99!!! Please quit trolling your users!
How about a reduction ($0) for students? I've been waiting for the API revamp so I could build a free powerful HTML5 web app (platform independent) and now you're completely crushing my plans.
With the options you've laid out, I won't even be able to collect money to fund that stupid fee. Quit taking lessons from apple and be truly friendly to your users and developers.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:36:00 -
[547]
Originally by: CCP Atlas 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet.
Then why charge anything at all?
You would save you a lot of trouble if you just give out free commercial and non-commercial licenses.
If it is not money you gain there, then what else is it you so desperately want? RL names? What for? You won't catch the real criminals anyway, or do you really think they are going to apply for a license?! |
Gerome Doutrande
Rue Morgue
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:37:00 -
[548]
Fire your "biz dev department". They're clueless.
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Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:37:00 -
[549]
Originally by: Sarina Rhoda
So you are charging people who actualy cover up your mistakes and make this game enjoyable and playable... GJ
A list of tools that i think CCP messed up on by not having somthing similar in game include:
EFT Dotlan Evemon killboard
If had to pay for these tools to make my game work as well as my supscription fees i would de-sub in a heart beat.
You forgot the jump planner. It's almost impossible to do this ingame.
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Valdamerca
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:37:00 -
[550]
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Valdamerca
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Originally by: Sorakage
You need us more than we need you. Do NOT charge the people who are covering up your incompetence.
Your damage control does not impress.
this
As the devblog was created by neanderthals(marketing lol) you must make sure they do not forget..
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Al Gizza
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:38:00 -
[551]
Shame on you CCP
With EVE being a sandbox universe, how does this paying $99 a year fit it?
The tools and the sites made by eve-fans make eve a enjoyable game, instead of the tiresome job it can be to keep records, calculating, timing etc. etc. on/for loot, mining, pos, alliance, research/manufactoring jobs, etc. etc.
CCP, plz forget this idea, focus on maintaining EVE, remove some of the clickfests, and listnen to your customers, as said several times in this tread: you cant live without us, but we can live without you.
I love eve, and has for 7.5 yrs, but ideas like this makes me wonder if you love me.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:41:00 -
[552]
Originally by: Holy One
Originally by: Xia Long First of all thanks to u guys who developed what makes EVE playable, talking of Wollari, Chribba,Kronus and everyone else!!
then just to keep it visible
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Only if they seek to profit from it. The non-commercial license is free. Just like anyone else, CCP has to protect it's IP. Licensing is the easiest way to do it. The nominal fee is purely that.
You all moaned like ****y little girls when capsuleer was forced to CAD, now there is a system being proposed which would mean apps like that could legitimately go on sale for practically nothing (assuming you intend to make money). What's the issue?
A few small projects can either stop making money ie. stop advertising or charging for their utilities and genuinely be 'free'. Or pay a nominal fee to obtain a license and be legit and be free to attempt to obtain as much revenue as they like either as profit or for costs etc.
Most businesses do not tolerate third party projects piggy-backing on their IP or resources. CCP has been a bit dizzy in the past to be perfectly honest - they've risked their copyright and other rights by not enforcing a licensing system long before now.
Try again, if you allow donations, or use ads to support the costs of hosting a site/etc you need a commercial license even if you don't force anyone to pay you anything.
I didn't give a **** when capsuleer CAD I thought if they wanted profits or to be paid they should have looked at the way things had been done for years everything was on them the best they could hope for was ads or donations that were voluntary only.
Again the issue is not everyone seeks to make money many just seek some contribution to their efforts be it isk, $$ donations supporting their work, or clicking ****ing ads to pay a tiny bit of their costs. Oh and not to be told "you owe us $99 for making our game more fun/conveinant/playable on your own dime".
Why is it you insist that anyone with ads is 'making money' after they pay for hosting/etc and their own time/effort making/supporting the product? Not everyone wants to force players to pay them for the things they do they'd just like some help from willing players and not to have to pay CCP for the chance to spend their time making something that enhances CCP's game for CCP's players.
Most companies might not but then they step up to fill that void, doing the work themselves or hiring/paying others to do it. CCP hasn't they were fine letting players work for free so long as they didn't profit from their work on CCP's IP now they claim that donations, ads, isk are 'profits' and need to be 'fined' $99 for contributing to the community for so long.
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Arimathea Anthalas
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:41:00 -
[553]
You guys are out of your damn minds. I'm amazed you have the chutzpah to try to do something like this.
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Salene Gralois
K-2
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:42:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Edisonn Trent In before CCP offers EULA-legal bots for 99$ a year.
Now I suddenly find myself missing the +1 button of the old new forum.
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Leon Razor
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:45:00 -
[555]
I'm really not sure what I think of this announcement. I think it's good that CCP is giving developers a way to make money from their work, but this could have some bad side effects.
First, it doesn't really make sense to charge the $99 fee for services that deal completely in isk. I always admired the out of game extensions of EVE where isk could buy useful services that were not included in the client. Now, developers are already paying for hosting and it would be nice if they could recoup those costs by asking for donations and getting ad revenue. If this is already allowed, good. If CCP makes them pay $99 a year then they have the right since the dev is making money off CCP IP.
However, if developers are allowed to charge real money for using their products or services, then this is no different than pay-to-win features. Think about how upset everyone got when CCP said they would temporally offer a ship for AUR. This is a real money -> ship conversion that didn't even give unique in game advantages. Now imagine you have to pay a real money subscription for dotlan. This is a real money -> clear advantage conversion. Even worse then than the scorpion for AUR idea.
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Varralee
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:46:00 -
[556]
You let yourself get taken down by script kiddies
Dust 514 PS3 only
Now you want 99 bucks from the people who make the tools that actually make this game playable.
You are having about the biggest week of fail ever.
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:51:00 -
[557]
Originally by: Lederstrumpf a company who can't even guarantee 24/7 uptime of their own website?
plz link to a site that does?
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow * * Differentiate between different classes of licensee; there are probably three: those who charge a RL$ fee, those who accept RL$ donations or sell ads (especially to cover costs), and those who charge in-game fees or accept in-game donations. One price does not fit all, and arguably all but the first should be free or a token ($1).
This summarises my feelings nicely: it gives 3p-devs the opportunity to charge if they feel their product is worthy.
______
Originally by: CCP Veritas In other words, I believe Dogma is doing stupid things, and I intend to beat the stupid out of it before considering giving it rocket boots.
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Spec 593357629
Exiled. The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:51:00 -
[558]
Let me run a scenario by you for a minute;
So I'm running a big time pro clan in Battlefield/Call of doodoo. Were well organized we have a teamspeak server, and a website/forums for the clan to use. Pretty cool, Now me and my clan sees Dust 514 and we decide, ohh wow this game looks really sick. So we say yeah lets all try this as a clan you know play together. So then I announce that because we want to migrate over to Dust as a clan we have to pay extra fees to host our website that were hosting out of our own pocket.
I'm sure that will go over really well with my clan. considering that we can all get copies of Battlefield 3 for roughly the same price and we don't have to chip in extra to cover licence fees. Or even better I have to make 2 clan websites now 1 for the players who want to play Dust 514, (you have to pay 10$ a year to sign up for) and then 1 that's absolutely free for Battlefield 3.
Sounds like a recipe for a dead clan to me.
You know what I get it, you need to have some kind of model that works out for the legal team. But really at this point you might as well be telling us that you want to roll back to pre 2004 eve and remove the overview. Unless of course I pay a small monthly fee to use it. Or better yet why not just start charging for the use of EVE mail ?
I've got a great idea, why don't you head over to White Wolf's forums and announce a similar model for World of darkness. See how that goes over with them, then come back and talk to us. ITs not like World of Darkness has any fan-sites does it ?
maybe you should think this over before you take a dump in all our collective cereal..
OR you could just pull the plug on this and get to work screwing up World of Darkness so no one want to play that either.
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Tier Eins
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:54:00 -
[559]
Why? If it's not about the money, why the legal crap? Do you really need this?
I always thought that you were different from other companies. I thought all you wanted to do was build the ultimate virtual world.
Please don't turn CCP into the kind of company that sues it's customers for loving it's products. Don't do something just because the suits say you have to. If there are any actual humans left in charge, I hope they realise where Eve is heading before it's too late.
My subscriptions are canceled.
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Retnor Kilani
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:54:00 -
[560]
I have an idea CCP. All the idea's you all have that you're thinking of trying out, please put it on the forums FIRST and see what your players/customers think about it before you dump a ton of resources/money on it to the point where there will be no way you'll not do it. Just a thought.
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Dardanos Herakles
Caldari Forced aggressions Lawful Insanity
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:57:00 -
[561]
Originally by: Varralee You let yourself get taken down by script kiddies
Dust 514 PS3 only
Now you want 99 bucks from the people who make the tools that actually make this game playable.
You are having about the biggest week of fail ever.
^ this XD
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Amber Villaneous
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Posted - 2011.06.15 23:58:00 -
[562]
Originally by: Holy One CCP has been a bit dizzy in the past to be perfectly honest - they've risked their copyright and other rights by not enforcing a licensing system long before now.
If the issue is "copyright and other rights" the na free liscense could easily be incorporated into the eula/tos or added to every API download even.
Since this is coming from BizDev=Marketing=Money not LawDev=Covering Our Asses I don't think it's reasonable to assume it is all about copyright.
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Nilania Telshua
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:10:00 -
[563]
Edited by: Nilania Telshua on 16/06/2011 00:14:49
Is this a new creative way to commit image-suicide ?
Players Like Chribba, Gripen and many many others. have substantially contributed to establishing EVEs success, without costing the company any cent.
Sites like eve-agents, eve-files, eve-search and applications like EFT meet needs of the playerbase that are essential due to the complex nature of EVE.
CCP can be lucky that players stepped up and invested their time and competence to create applications to cover these needs.
The current license model in the devblog neglects to differentiate between:
Programs and Services that are a) directly sold for real life cash. b) indirectly financed by advertising instruments. c) rewarded by optional donations of ingame money. d) use elements of the eve-ip.
In the case of a) it is understandable that CCP would require a legal agreement and payment for the use of their IP.
In the case of b) the same desire could be seen as understandable, if the revenues could be expected to substantially exceed the operation cost of such player run services.
In any other case of b) and that of c) and d) I cannot see any reason, why CCP should seek legal protection of its IP, that is beyond such already granted by international and national copy right laws.
In combination with the Microtransactions and the fact that CCP already used double-think in the past (Feature:Unsubbed Training -> Bug:Ghost-Training) it is more than understandable, that especially the content provider feel insulted and the playerbase enraged by this license initiative.
Chribba and the more specialized others, are for good reasons some of the few celebrities in the eve-community, that are respected by everyone, even our most sociopathic members.
Smacking the heros of your playerbase and partners of your success in the face is not a clever move CCP.
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Naryamn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:14:00 -
[564]
After deleting and writing 10 different aggressive posts expression my opinions I ended with this:
"Suddenly, the LulzSec attacks make much more sense to me..."
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Kara Liselle
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:17:00 -
[565]
Edited by: Kara Liselle on 16/06/2011 00:17:59 "$99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service."
Justify what cost? This is third party not a ccp service how is this an of your business? It is an out of game third party group of services ccp has no jurisdiction on. If eve was more complete and did not actually need these out of game services that would be a different story. How is me using eve-surival.org any of your business since you were too lax too include a compareable service in the programming?
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:19:00 -
[566]
Originally by: ccp Why charge for the license at all?
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative
I lol'd
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:21:00 -
[567]
Originally by: Ix Forres Some good stuff, some bad stuff. But mostly, too little too late. Most third party developers have left already or stopped working on their tools long ago.
I can see this killing Dotlan and eve-files, with CCP, as usual wondering what the fuss is about as their customers slowly drift away.
The $99 yearly fee, plus the pathetic way this was announced (no surprise coming from CCP) very much gives me the feeling that CCP are utterly desperate for cash on the one hand, yet think they can somehow emulate the Apple and Android markets with one unreliable internet game that is run by a bunch of mentally defective Icelandic dwarves who communicate like Dali on acid on a good day.
I'm with Chribba on this; I'm utterly fcking speechless at the stupidity of this. The only high point is that moron Hilmar desparately trying to backpedal on his goddamn tweet of all places.
CCP: I challenge you to drop the act and own up to the financial situation your company is in. I don't see how you think that accounts paying the equivalent of $14 a month ($168 a year) now need to pay an extra $99 a year for services that aid your company that they were already doing for free. And trying to extort money from in-game services for ISK, where YOU YOURSELVES CLAIM THAT ISK CANNOT BE CONVERTED TO REAL LIFE MONEY is a good way to kill those services completely.
If you want to do this: ONLY CHARGE FOR SITES AND APPS THAT DIRECTLY CHARGE REAL MONEY FOR THEIR SERVICES!
NO CHARGE for in-game isk services. NO CHARGE for sites that support themselves with Google ads NO CHARGE for sites that allow voluntary donations.
OTHERWISE GO TO HELL.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:23:00 -
[568]
Originally by: Holy One
Originally by: Xia Long First of all thanks to u guys who developed what makes EVE playable, talking of Wollari, Chribba,Kronus and everyone else!!
then just to keep it visible
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Only if they seek to profit from it. The non-commercial license is free. Just like anyone else, CCP has to protect it's IP. Licensing is the easiest way to do it. The nominal fee is purely that.
You all moaned like ****y little girls when capsuleer was forced to CAD, now there is a system being proposed which would mean apps like that could legitimately go on sale for practically nothing (assuming you intend to make money). What's the issue?
A few small projects can either stop making money ie. stop advertising or charging for their utilities and genuinely be 'free'. Or pay a nominal fee to obtain a license and be legit and be free to attempt to obtain as much revenue as they like either as profit or for costs etc.
Most businesses do not tolerate third party projects piggy-backing on their IP or resources. CCP has been a bit dizzy in the past to be perfectly honest - they've risked their copyright and other rights by not enforcing a licensing system long before now.
For the record, you are a ****in idiot.
Hypothetical: You use a free (ad-supported) 3'rd party website/app. It just so happens this website is invaluable to you and tens of thousands of other EVE players, this is because CCP never bothered spending the hours necessary to code this indispensable utility (could be anything, jumpplanner and EFT are two that spring to mind). Now this utility is undeniably beneficial to the game as a whole, it's hard to imagine an EVE without this essential tool.
This tool costs the 3pd $100 per year in maintanence/server fees, this is paid out of his own pocket for the betterment of every other player in the game. Now lets say this 3pd is a student, or someone living in impoverished/3'rd world country. They cannot afford that kind of expense, so he decides to subsidise the costs with googleads, using ads he is able to bring his costs down to $30 per year, tight on this persons budget, but a cost he is willing to pay to make EVE a more accessible and entertaining game. Now CCP comes along and tells him he must pay them $99 per year in addition to his server fees or they will take out an injunction against him for IP theft and potentially sue him. His costs have now gone from $30 to $129 (more than original server costs, which are unaffordable to begin with). He now has only 2 options left, A) Discontinue the utility and all support for the utility B) Attempt to charge the EVE community for use of the utility. A dubious proposition that requires many more hours of unpaid development for a secure payment/auth system, requires the unaffordable $99 license be purchased BEFORE any income is generated by the utility, and is in no way garaunteed to break even, or garner a single customer. EVE players are fickle
Let me get this straight, you think the above situation is fair and just? You'll continue to support this action by CCP after the most vital third party apps have been discontinued? You think that in a perfect world, 3pd's should toil (unpaid) for hours and days and weeks in order to develop and provide free utilities, then when server costs force them to advertise to keep things online, they should be taken to court by CCP for copyright violations? You think it's a good decision by CCP to support and encourage these apps for almost a decade, and now turn around and demand 'your money or your life' as it were?
I might see a need for this, if you could cite a single example of CCP's EVE related intellectual property being used and exploited for some unaffiliated persons profit. And no ISK selling does not count. ...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Mac Aoidh
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:26:00 -
[569]
Originally by: Sister Megarea Well, I'm going to buck the trend here and say that I think this is actually a pretty decent idea. (Far, far better than the Aurum nightmare).
In a nutshell, the API is provided as an 'extra' - It's not needed for in-game play (which is what we pay for), it's certainly not provided for anywhere near all online games - So it's been a rather nice extra for all this time.
If CCP can make an extra few bucks - And more importantly - if indie developers can make a few bucks from it - I say more power to them.
Count me amongst those that really don't have an issue with this.
You're missing the larger picture here. Apps like EVEmon and EFT ARE needed for in game play. Developers fill the gap where CCP has neglected and without them, the game will no longer be as functional as it once was.
"With A Strong Hand" |
Nilania Telshua
Amarr Hedion University
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:31:00 -
[570]
Edited by: Nilania Telshua on 16/06/2011 00:31:54
Originally by: Sister Megarea
In a nutshell, the API is provided as an 'extra' - It's not needed for in-game play
You certainly never have run a large and complex economic operation in eve. Without the api, juggling hundreds of orders or countless lab jobs and inventory would be near impossible.
Eve is not a normal game. Many small businesses in real life require much less administration than the larger economic operations in eve. Spreadsheets in Space is not term that was coined at random.
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Naryamn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:37:00 -
[571]
Originally by: ccp Why charge for the license at all?
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative
Problem solved!
we didnt want this 'initiative'!
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:37:00 -
[572]
I have questions. In the intrest of civility I will refrain from blatant trolling except to say when it comes to consumer rights I tend to fall somewhere between Ralph Nader and a gorilla on PCP. I will also assume, at least for the time being, that this is aimed at letting people legally sell apps and that screwing over killboards/Chribba/etc. was a marketing mistake and will be fixed directly.
1. Does this only apply to API-linked products or are you using the usual legal IPR definition of anything CCP ever made, is making, or thought about making once but immediately forgot? Consider for example my corp's killboard (which I coded and maintain myself), obviously it's related to eve but it takes copypaste KMs as input rather than API linkage. Do I now require a noncom license and the associated extra coding work integrating a clickwrap user license?
2. I want to know more about how you're defining "donation supported". If my killboard doesn't have a donate link but somebody sends me a few bucks or 500k isk for the lols, am I screwed if I don't have a com license? As multitudes have already said, few if any third-party sites even manage to break even let alone turn a profit and effectively banning donations is just going to **** off the entire community.
3. More of an editorial than a question, but the point needs to be made. You guys keep mentioning cost to maintain, etc. but that requires a very important distinction be made between your hosting and mine. Let's use another example, I had considered cooking up a smart salvage calculator that does a lot more than the ones normally available and could concievably charge an per-use "analysis fee" or whatever. Like the KB, this would be a PHP site on private hosting that I pay for out of pocket. While I would not be opposed to paying a licenssing fee if I charged USD and not ISK $100/year--almost double my current hosting costs--is a bit rich.
I guess what I'm getting at overall is there's a big difference between helping someone make a big pile of cash off Angry Birds: Eve Edition which gets hosted in the new official Eve app store for $.99 a download, and mucking about with guys like Chribba who pay 100% of the costs themselves. While the value of CCP's IPR itself is a valid discussion, the license system needs to take both models into account. _________________ [IMAGE REMOVED] -- aka Cpt Bogus -- Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
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Outofphaze
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:37:00 -
[573]
Originally by: Kara Liselle Edited by: Kara Liselle on 16/06/2011 00:17:59 "$99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service."
Justify what cost? This is third party not a ccp service how is this an of your business? It is an out of game third party group of services ccp has no jurisdiction on. If eve was more complete and did not actually need these out of game services that would be a different story. How is me using eve-surival.org any of your business since you were too lax too include a compareable service in the programming?
Cost aside. CCP DOES in fact have jurisdiction to anything eve related due to copy write laws. CCP does have the right to control who can create 3rd party services because of said copy-write laws. I may be extremely ****ed about this as I have created several 3rd party sites for the eve community. That being said, sadly there's not much we can do about it
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:41:00 -
[574]
I'd also like to add that this whole thing REEKS of CCP sponsored RMT (albeit the isk is sourced indirectly):
"Pay only $4.99/m and make BILLIONS in EVE with our 3'rd party app! Triple money-back guarantee!" <- mining, trading, market check, moon mapping websites
"For $4.99/m you can dominate your opponents! Your superior intel will make you a PvP god!" <- fitting tools, PvP maps, killboards, jumpplanners, ship fit databases
This would kill EVE imo, we do not want a two tiered EVE with peasants and princes. Peasants are regular EVE players that do not fork out cash on utilities, whereas princes will have a clear edge in almost every aspect of EVE, as they are paying for multiple utilities.
GAMEBREAKINGLY BAD IDEA Your entire bizdev department needs to be crucified for even suggesting this ****ed up piece of **** idea. ...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Troy LS
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:44:00 -
[575]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
So me and my corpmates haul stuff all over New Eden for people who are too busy to do it themselves and have spare isk in their pod. This constitutes an exchange of service for isk. Will I have to buy a license to continue to play the game?
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:44:00 -
[576]
If CCP is one of the best companies in Iceland that country must be in a pretty awful state.
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Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:45:00 -
[577]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Unfortunately, CSM was not given a preview of this devblog.
Unacceptable CCP. Unacceptable. This is what the primary function of the CSM should relate to.
Disregard my previous balanced comments in this thread.
Starfleet Comms Podcast Your journey through the Eve Universe! |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Vannbros Shipyards
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:46:00 -
[578]
Over the last few months or so, I've had this feeling that I wasn't able to put into words.
Until today that is, when another dev blog comes along mentioning something totally unannounced before the press release date and it hits me.
The management structure surrounds themselves with 'Yes' people. Or they make a decision all by themselves and only shares bits and pieces of the total plan with the individual scrum/sprint teams and no one in the company really knows what's happening until they read the dev blog and go omg!
With fewer lies in the blog (whether we charge $99, $50 or $1 won't make a difference to the balance sheet - huh!!), and a totally different approach to sounding out the big names that support CCP by introducing tools that a) work, b) offer what people want and in many cases what people need to enjoy the game rather than the note taking, you wouldn't have opened up ANOTHER forum drama-bomb.
There's been way too many to count recently and it's not as if the game itself is calling me to play it.
I will probably not bother renewing next month, not because I want the character to lose training points, it's just that I can't honestly say what I'll be training up to do in the first place.
View The Eve Industrial Organiser Site
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Naryamn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:48:00 -
[579]
Originally by: Outofphaze That being said, sadly there's not much we can do about it
Well, there is!!!
I propose every single 3th party application to bring them offline asap and put a protest page about this proposal in their place for the time its needed.
Maybe, when CCP sees that even the granny of the uncle of your mother complains in the forums that they lost access to one of the most useful things Eve has and when they start to see the number of subscriptions reducing they might open their eyes!
Just hope it isn't too late!
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Optional Patch
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:49:00 -
[580]
CCP isn't doing this for the money, they are trying to a> police the IP and b> enable people to make money selling their eve-related apps and services.
They just went about it in a spectacularly poor fashion as usual.
Having the CEO roll his eyes at his 'whining customers' doesn't help, and let's us all know where we stand. CCP are one of, if not the most arrogant developers in the business, ask anyone who meets the execs at a GDC.
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Naryamn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:51:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Bomberlocks If CCP is one of the best companies in Iceland that country must be in a pretty awful state.
It is....
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:54:00 -
[582]
Dear CCP bizdev,
You have jumped the shark. The folks behind Capsuleer (who have long since abandoned the project in disgust) wanted the option to get a licence from CCP to sell their iPhone App for real money. So now you come out and propose what is effectively a scorched-earth policy of "all or nothing".
Here is how your policy should work:
Developers who wish to sell, license or offer their service for subscriptions in real world currencies should be able to buy a licence from CCP for the $99pa which grants them a license to use CCPs copyright (i.e.: "EVE Online", the various images associated with the game, etc).
Developers who wish to sell, licence or offer their service for subscriptions in ISK should be able to buy a licence from CCP for N x PLEX pa which grants them the same license.
This way CCP still gets the money to support their third party business development group, people who want to make personal financial gain from enhancing your property can do so, the users of third party apps get to attach a real value to the properties they are associated with, and those who are doing their thing as a gift to the community can continue simply doing their thing as a gift to the community.
The process of collecting subscriptions and managing the licence with CCP is adding more work to the work that developers are already doing. Those who are specifically charging for their service are obviously interested in doing a little extra work to make a lot of extra income (either real or virtual). Those who are providing a service out of their own good will should not be punished for the generosity of the community.
Of course, CCP could run with something like the Apple App Store, where all subscriptions are sold through CCP, with CCP skimming some of each payment. This raises the issue of subscription validation, which is tricky, since we're not simply installing apps on an iPhone here but controlling access to a third party service. On the other hand, an "EVE Online App Store" would tie directly in with the MT store, and provide the benefit of giving all third party developers a means to advertise their service.
Third party developers could sell their services as a subscription through the EVE Store, with the buyer receiving a subscription token which they then surrender to the service provider through their logged in account on that third party service, in order to update their subscription details (i.e.: similarly to the way a GTC works through the EVE web site).
When we open the EVE Store in-game, we could then see a bunch of different categories, things like 'ingame items', 'physical products', 'IGB services', 'OOG services', 'RSS services' etc. Thus I could - for example - stockpile PLEX and use those plex to buy a Fleet Tempest model to be delivered to my home, or I could subscribe to Wollari's map service for the next five years, or I could buy my character the entire Guristas Grey uniform, or a premium membership to EVEnews24. Or whatever.
I don't claim to be speaking on behalf of Wollari or riverini, I'm just using their services as examples of how I might use this third party service subscription model.
Rather than coughing up $99 up front, the third party developers could funnel their funding through CCP, allowing CCP to simply take a cut of every payment made - ISK or otherwise. Folks like Chribba get to keep running their service for free.
Selling Apps through the App store becomes a little more complicated. I'm sure the developers, CCP and Apple could sort something out (such as third parties writing the apps, CCP publishing them, Apple selling them, CCP taking a cut of what Apple pays, third party gets the remainder).
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Dimitryy
Gallente Broski Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:54:00 -
[583]
One of the best things about Eve and about CCP was allowing the free use of API, and it spawned lots of awesome third party software like EFT and EveMon. Its a shame to see this happen to what was one of the standout features of Eve.
------------------------------------------
Jack Blackstone > Dimitryy I hope you die. |
Arec Bardwin
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:56:00 -
[584]
Edited by: Arec Bardwin on 16/06/2011 00:57:27
Originally by: Naryamn
I propose every single 3th party application to bring them offline asap and put a protest page about this proposal in their place for the time its needed.
This would be hilarious.
Originally by: Optional Patch
Having the CEO roll his eyes at his 'whining customers' doesn't help, and let's us all know where we stand. CCP are one of, if not the most arrogant developers in the business, ask anyone who meets the execs at a GDC.
Yeah, what's up with this guy.
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Abraxus Lazzurs
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:59:00 -
[585]
It's not often I post up on the forums, but I think I need to this time. I think this is an terrible idea. I'm all for micro-transactions to get myself a new ship skin, etc. But this is just lame.
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Max Torps
Nomadic Conglomerate
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Posted - 2011.06.16 00:59:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Mara Rinn Dear CCP bizdev,
You have jumped the shark. The folks behind Capsuleer (who have long since abandoned the project in disgust) wanted the option to get a licence from CCP to sell their iPhone App for real money. So now you come out and propose what is effectively a scorched-earth policy of "all or nothing".
Here is how your policy should work:
Developers who wish to sell, license or offer their service for subscriptions in real world currencies should be able to buy a licence from CCP for the $99pa which grants them a license to use CCPs copyright (i.e.: "EVE Online", the various images associated with the game, etc).
Developers who wish to sell, licence or offer their service for subscriptions in ISK should be able to buy a licence from CCP for N x PLEX pa which grants them the same license.
This way CCP still gets the money to support their third party business development group, people who want to make personal financial gain from enhancing your property can do so, the users of third party apps get to attach a real value to the properties they are associated with, and those who are doing their thing as a gift to the community can continue simply doing their thing as a gift to the community.
The process of collecting subscriptions and managing the licence with CCP is adding more work to the work that developers are already doing. Those who are specifically charging for their service are obviously interested in doing a little extra work to make a lot of extra income (either real or virtual). Those who are providing a service out of their own good will should not be punished for the generosity of the community.
Of course, CCP could run with something like the Apple App Store, where all subscriptions are sold through CCP, with CCP skimming some of each payment. This raises the issue of subscription validation, which is tricky, since we're not simply installing apps on an iPhone here but controlling access to a third party service. On the other hand, an "EVE Online App Store" would tie directly in with the MT store, and provide the benefit of giving all third party developers a means to advertise their service.
Third party developers could sell their services as a subscription through the EVE Store, with the buyer receiving a subscription token which they then surrender to the service provider through their logged in account on that third party service, in order to update their subscription details (i.e.: similarly to the way a GTC works through the EVE web site).
When we open the EVE Store in-game, we could then see a bunch of different categories, things like 'ingame items', 'physical products', 'IGB services', 'OOG services', 'RSS services' etc. Thus I could - for example - stockpile PLEX and use those plex to buy a Fleet Tempest model to be delivered to my home, or I could subscribe to Wollari's map service for the next five years, or I could buy my character the entire Guristas Grey uniform, or a premium membership to EVEnews24. Or whatever.
I don't claim to be speaking on behalf of Wollari or riverini, I'm just using their services as examples of how I might use this third party service subscription model.
Rather than coughing up $99 up front, the third party developers could funnel their funding through CCP, allowing CCP to simply take a cut of every payment made - ISK or otherwise. Folks like Chribba get to keep running their service for free.
Selling Apps through the App store becomes a little more complicated. I'm sure the developers, CCP and Apple could sort something out (such as third parties writing the apps, CCP publishing them, Apple selling them, CCP taking a cut of what Apple pays, third party gets the remainder).
An example of a sensible, well thought out proposal that may have ben proffered had the CSM had any involvement. On it's own merits, it's awesome. What a shame a ****storm had to happen.
Starfleet Comms Podcast Your journey through the Eve Universe! |
Wisper Frozen
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:01:00 -
[587]
Edited by: Wisper Frozen on 16/06/2011 01:05:58
Originally by: Soi Mala Calling it now - CCP have done a microsoft.
CCP have watched people developing tools for free all this time, now they'll start charging for a license. If the 3rd parties pay and carry on, good news for CCP, money for nothing. If they stop developing, CCP now knows what they need to do (especially since most projects are open source), and will release their own CCPEVEMON or CCPEFT and charge for the usage.
Well played, ***gots.
Not quite Microsoft more Apple.. Microsoft gives out the tools for windows development for free because they know more apps means more users which is where they make the money. Apple wants to be a 30% stake in your business for 0 investment.
Just correct that but yea it sucks...
EDIT:Spelling
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:04:00 -
[588]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 16/06/2011 01:04:00
Originally by: Arec Bardwin Edited by: Arec Bardwin on 16/06/2011 00:57:27
Originally by: Naryamn
I propose every single 3th party application to bring them offline asap and put a protest page about this proposal in their place for the time its needed.
This would be hilarious.
Done!
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Leil Ren'Do
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:07:00 -
[589]
Hilmar can I please suck your **** for $100? You're that awesome you see.
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Elrinarie
Gallente Wraith.Wing Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:14:00 -
[590]
so wait.. you guys are going to start finding gaming websites that reference EVE-Online and start charging them money?
What about people that make free tools like my mineral calculator. I don't charge a dime, haven't made a dime, but host them on places that might run ads so now I might have to pay 99 a year?
really? --------------------- Creator of another Mining Calculator |
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:26:00 -
[591]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Which buttarded asshat thought it would be a good idea to publish this without explicitly saying that it was a draft? Right, no one. As per fcking usual you came up with a hilariously bad idea, thinking you're in the same league as Apple, and ran with it.
Quote:
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
If you clowns do anything like charge for in-game services I would be willing to make a $99 bet with you that the number of customers will have halved by the end of the year.
Quote:
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
I'm speechless. You now need to charge for things that were free until now? Is CCP that hard up for cash? Also, again, CCP isn't Apple or Android. You people seriously need to rethink what you are doing. Up the subscription fee by a Dollar a month, but don't chase the people away who make your hilariously badly made game playable.
Quote:
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
You morons really need to drop the idea of charging people for ad or donation supported site RIGHT FCKING NOW! NONE of those sites cover their own costs for the work they do FOR FREE, and now you want $99 a year from them? Simply fcking insane.
Quote:
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
You want a constructive suggestion? DROP THE ENTIRE IDEA. You want a compromise? ONLY CHARGE FOR APPS AND SITES THAT DIRECTLY CHARGE REAL MONEY THEMSELVES.
Quote:
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
You need to fire those rejects right now.
What, in the name of all that is holy is wrong with you cretins at CCP?????
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:33:00 -
[592]
Originally by: Naryamn I propose every single 3th party application to bring them offline asap and put a protest page about this proposal in their place for the time its needed.
Web site managers would need to make sure that the protest page actually indicates the reason the site is down, of course. Something short and brutal such as, "I run this site for free. Fù YOU CCP." With a link to this thread, using the same colour scheme as the forums :)
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Fraeulein Rottenmaier
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:36:00 -
[593]
Holy Crap! 20 Sites of HATE already
obey! pay! u whiners!!!
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Surrah
Supra Tenetur
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:39:00 -
[594]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words. something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face.
/c
Originally by: Chribba ...
Having had the honor of being with both you and the community since 2003, I have seen EVE grow, and tbh we wouldn't be nowhere where we are today if it wasn't for the tools you provided to us pilots to enable us to create such great things as EFT, EVEMon, dotlan, GTS, EveHQ, spreadsheets and so on.
...
With a license, most of any future idea will never become more than just an idea.
I love CCP, to me you are the most awesome gaming company around, you provide your customers with an amazing set of tools, features, experiences, humor and you offer yourselves to your customers like no one else - that is something special, that is what makes your customers loyal, and keep wanting to support your (at times) crazy ideas.
...
At least I have no intention of charging the users of my sites, and rather shut down them than forcing the users to pay me to keep it online.
...
Scrap this draft
You've upset Chribba, the weather vane of EVE.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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olsted
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:40:00 -
[595]
Oh good lord. Did Activision buy CCP also?
Really boys, Shelve this Incarna nonsence, Throw Dust514 out, Stop the Madness and FIX MY SPACESHIP GAME!!!
-O.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:43:00 -
[596]
Sorry to double-post, but I think CCP needs to realise that third party apps are far more valuable to most players than any clothes will ever be. It is in CCPs interest to help the third party developers make money rather than attempt to extort money from third party developers. Some of those developers might want to cash in on some of the EVE Store action if you open up a "free, with percentage of profits" licence scheme. They can start small and as you make money for them, the money rolls into your coffers too.
This is the story of the goose that laid the golden eggs, made incarnate.
(see what I did there)
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Desert Ice78
Gryphon River Industries R-I-P
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:45:00 -
[597]
It has become apparent to me that you can now tell to what extent CPP is proposing to skull**** the community in their latest solo run by reading the blog header and noting the use and frequency of words such as "great announcement," "wonderful news," and "exciting development."
p.s. The Chribba hath looked, and he hath frowned, and he hath spake, and the "great news" hath been exposed as the harlot she is.
CCP: Consistency since 2003 |
Salene Gralois
K-2
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:47:00 -
[598]
Pretty epic. Doing more damage to your rep yourself than lulzsec ever dreamed of doing.
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NGTM1R
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:53:00 -
[599]
The thing that strikes me about this is CCP is pretending they have a platform you could develop a series of profitable apps for. That's not the case. There's a very limited window left for this sort of thing, because of EFT/Jumpplanner/KBs etc. already existing. I don't see a way you can create something that doesn't already have a free competitor in widespread use with the use of APIs, and then good luck getting a pay alternative to work.
In a sense, CCP would have to destroy the freebie API key using things to make any market for pay ones. If that's what this plan is about, then bravo: you've reached mustache-twirling evil overlord levels of complexity is stupid. If it's not, then the plan is dead aborning. |
Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 01:53:00 -
[600]
Originally by: Bomberlocks
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Which buttarded asshat thought it would be a good idea to publish this without explicitly saying that it was a draft? Right, no one. As per fcking usual you came up with a hilariously bad idea, thinking you're in the same league as Apple, and ran with it.
Quote:
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
If you clowns do anything like charge for in-game services I would be willing to make a $99 bet with you that the number of customers will have halved by the end of the year.
Quote:
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
I'm speechless. You now need to charge for things that were free until now? Is CCP that hard up for cash? Also, again, CCP isn't Apple or Android. You people seriously need to rethink what you are doing. Up the subscription fee by a Dollar a month, but don't chase the people away who make your hilariously badly made game playable.
Quote:
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
You morons really need to drop the idea of charging people for ad or donation supported site RIGHT FCKING NOW! NONE of those sites cover their own costs for the work they do FOR FREE, and now you want $99 a year from them? Simply fcking insane.
Quote:
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
You want a constructive suggestion? DROP THE ENTIRE IDEA. You want a compromise? ONLY CHARGE FOR APPS AND SITES THAT DIRECTLY CHARGE REAL MONEY THEMSELVES.
Quote:
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
You need to fire those rejects right now.
What, in the name of all that is holy is wrong with you cretins at CCP?????
QUEUE EFF TEA
The more I think about this stupid decision by CCP, the more my URGE TO KILL RISES! If this comes about I'll gladly tell CCP to go **** themselves re my subs, and actively dissuade anyone from playing EVE or DUST.
I'd rather eat raw chicken than be forced to pay for use of 3'rd party utilities. You've got 20, going on 21 pages of PURE UNADULTERATED HATERAGE about this, get a ****ing clue and throw this idea in the bin. ...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
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Cuhlen
Caldari Tower of Ravens The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2011.06.16 01:54:00 -
[601]
This is great news! I'm glad CCP has decide to amend its TOS like this. This should help to encourage the development of some great applications.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:05:00 -
[602]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau I'd also like to add that this whole thing REEKS of CCP sponsored RMT (albeit the isk is sourced indirectly):
"Pay only $4.99/m and make BILLIONS in EVE with our 3'rd party app! Triple money-back guarantee!" <- mining, trading, market check, moon mapping websites
"For $4.99/m you can dominate your opponents! Your superior intel will make you a PvP god!" <- fitting tools, PvP maps, killboards, jumpplanners, ship fit databases
This would kill EVE imo, we do not want a two tiered EVE with peasants and princes. Peasants are regular EVE players that do not fork out cash on utilities, whereas princes will have a clear edge in almost every aspect of EVE, as they are paying for multiple utilities.
GAMEBREAKINGLY BAD IDEA Your entire bizdev department needs to be crucified for even suggesting this ****ed up piece of **** idea.
Exactly my thoughts.
To clarify:
I'm in a process of building an all-around industrial application that will be published and made available to EVE community. I don't plan to charge for it, but I've planned to put "If you like this app, please send some ISK" in it. This application is something I'm building in my free time and can be useful to many industrialists out there, but I'm NOT prepared to pay ANY $$$s just because there's a hint that I accept ISK donations (not that I expect to get more than a couple of mil of ISK anyway).
With the policy about ISK donations in place in the current form presented in devblog, I'll just share the app with people I know to give them an advantage over all other players. There's no reason whatsoever why I should share the app with the rest of the community. I'm not paying $$$s for a piece of software that I've wrote myself - period.
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Tweakalvos
Gallente 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:09:00 -
[603]
I'm sorry but with the DUST stuff and RMT and Arum are you really trying to milk us like blizzard does for a pony? I mean seriously I can understand your developing 3 mmos basically. But shafting the people who got you here for greed is a blizzard move. And really should be rethought. FIX botting and things then come back to me about bs.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:10:00 -
[604]
Originally by: NGTM1R The thing that strikes me about this is CCP is pretending they have a platform you could develop a series of profitable apps for. That's not the case. There's a very limited window left for this sort of thing, because of EFT/Jumpplanner/KBs etc. already existing. I don't see a way you can create something that doesn't already have a free competitor in widespread use with the use of APIs, and then good luck getting a pay alternative to work.
In a sense, CCP would have to destroy the freebie API key using things to make any market for pay ones. If that's what this plan is about, then bravo: you've reached mustache-twirling evil overlord levels of complexity is stupid. If it's not, then the plan is dead aborning.
The API isn't free. You already pay for it with your subscription fee.
However, after all this rage, I think the writing is on the wall. It's time to blow my last isk and get all my ships shot and quit the game. The game I pay for isn't going to get any better. CCP is so out of touch with its core customer base, it's just not funny and it's only going to get worse if the past months are any indication.
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Casod Sutherland
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:16:00 -
[605]
CCP, have you thought about whether your "non-commercial clickwrap agreement" will be compatible with FOSS licenses like the GPL? Because if it isn't, popular third-party applications that use GPL code, like EveMon and Pyfa, will be in a lot of trouble and may well have to shut down.
PS. The whole proposal is terrible and poorly thought out. A licensing fee will drive away a significant number of third-party developers currently running ad- and donation-supported services. Third-party applications and websites are what makes Eve playable; without them, average players (who don't care about API licensing, but who have come to rely on third-party tools) will begin unsubbing.
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Angel HUN
Spricer WE FORM VOLTRON
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:16:00 -
[606]
CCP,
The reason the community devlops third party apps is to compensate for your complete lack of said services and/or horribly implemented alternatives.
You are kicking those who make the game playable.
Originally by: CCP Oveur
We. Will. Never. Leave. EVE.
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Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:30:00 -
[607]
So those Biz Devs are like morons in real life, did I get that right?
Could some Dev of that workgroup come forward and point out where they had their hands on and what has been planned next?
This sucks.
Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody! |
Torquemada Credo
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:32:00 -
[608]
Edited by: Torquemada Credo on 16/06/2011 02:32:25 Asshattery of the highest order, why are there so many 3rd party apps out there? Because your client is a tangled, undocumented mess. If you wanna engage with eve you are literally required to go 3rd party, because you at CCP cant or wont support your own damn game. Maybe if you spent as much time supporting your game as you did supporting BoB, this wouldnt be such an issue.
I dont code apps, I dont host and as a rule I dont pay for them - I obviously use them and pay those who write and host these things, due credit.
It was only yesterday I had to say something nice about CCP, over the DDo handling and yes it stuck in my craw, as generally I think CCP are a terrible company to have to deal with, until I dabbled in BGO and had to deal with Big Point I unreservedly thought CCP to be the worst MMO companies with one of the best games.
If you do this, however you'll kill the much needed community support for EVE and with that you'll greatly reduce EVEs appeal.
If this goes live I think I'll spend some time gooogling for blogs and youtubes and any other source of in game names and donate .01 isk to all I find
PS. You clowns have angered the Veld God, I didnt even think Veld had emotions.
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VicturusTeSaluto
Metafarmers MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:32:00 -
[609]
CCP trying to sell out the EVE brand while people are still playing...
Going to milk it for all its worth!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:37:00 -
[610]
Originally by: olsted Really boys, Shelve this Incarna nonsence, Throw Dust514 out, Stop the Madness and FIX MY SPACESHIP GAME!!!
I actually like Incarna and Dust 514. I don't mind the MT store as long as it doesn't interfere with the existing economy (and I'd love it if it expanded on the existing economy, LP-store-style). CCP are working on fixing the spaceship game.
Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. In this case, don't throw out the good stuff (the concept of giving third party developers the option of making money from their products or services based on CCP property) with the crap (the concept of requiring all third party developers to make money for CCP).
Third party devs have been asking CCP for a way to "monetize" their products. While this dev license idea is good in principle, the current wording is a load of stinking cat poo (cows are herbivores, cats are carnivores - cat poo stinks more and is stickier, cow poo makes great fertiliser). CCP needs to amend the program so that developers wishing to make real world money can do so with CCPs blessing, without the "good will & donations" supported sites getting punished.
There is a very simple test that can be applied: if access to any of the facilities of a product or service requires a real-world money contribution, the developer should license their product or service through this program. If a product or service is maintained through good will or donations, it should not require a license.
On the other hand, selling subscriptions to third party services through the EVE Store (or Microtransaction store, whatever you want to call it) opens the door to sites continuing to be maintained through donations without having to commit to a $99 per year expense. I expect a profit-sharing scheme would work better for CCP than a $99pa fee.
I imagine that if a popular EVE mapping web site was to take the freemium route (for example, requiring a subscription if you want to use the jump planner, route optimiser or jump bridge maps) - I expect that developer would be making a lot more than a few hundred dollars a year. CCP would make more from such a commercialisation by asking for a 10% profit share, rather than a $99pa fee. Profit share would be easier to collect if CCP sold subscriptions, a mechanism which should reduce the "making money for CCP" workload on the 3rd party developer's behalf. CCP handles the transactions, the accounting, etc, leaving the developer with the burden of authenticating subscription tokens through the API if they choose to.
Developers producing "goodwill" or "donation supported" products could then use the subscription income just like they use their current donation income.
Developers producing "fremium" or "premium" products would have to take the extra step of collecting/authenticating subscription tokens. No need to interface with PayPal/Visa/Mastercard/etc. In fact, CCP could word the license such that all other payment options are forbidden.
EVE Store subscription token + Subscription token API = flexible licensing for all 3rd party devs, from those who are goodwill-supported right through to those who want to pay their mortgages by writing tools for EVE players.
All of this, of course, will drive the price of PLEX sky high. Which is good for fighting RMT, but bad for folks like me whose subscriptions are paid by PLEX. How sad. I really feel pity for me.
But then CCP could just alter the PLEX and Aurum thing, so that Aurum are bought with real cash from the EVE site, converted into in-game secondary currency while PLEX can be converted to ¦PLEX (ie: 1 PLEX <=> 1000 ¦PLEX). Then 3rd party devs have the option of pricing their goods separately in Aurum or ¦PLEX, with Aurum having a fixed real-world exchange rate going into or out of the game. The only way of getting real-world currency would be in-game sales of third party subscriptions, so there's no direct ISK to RL conversion happening.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:38:00 -
[611]
And to think I was trying to convince myself to buy a PS3 to get Dust514...
Well IF this goes forward - and we pay a fee for ANY ONE of the following: EFT, EveMon, or Battleclinic
I will be unsubscribing, but not before I liquify my clone to insure I don't have the stupid urge to give CCP another shot.
What a ******ed idea.
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olsted
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:38:00 -
[612]
Originally by: Cuhlen Edited by: Cuhlen on 16/06/2011 02:16:31 This is great news! I'm glad CCP has decide to amend its TOS like this. This should help to encourage the development of some great applications.
That being said, there are issues with the announcement that need refining, which you have already mentioned.
One thing I don't think alot of the folks who have commented on this realize, is that MANY of the current 3rd party applications and websites are in violation of the existing TOS. Basically, if someone uses any CCP IP (such as art content, copyrighted text/descriptions, etc), and accepts donations or charges ISK for their services (banner designers, etc), then they are in violation of the terms of service. This amendment provides a means for people to come into compliance.
All in all, it's a good thing.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume this is trolling.
On the wildly unlikely chance its not, heres how you fix the 'problem' you mention. Alter the TOS to allow this and the commercialization of apps WITHOUT the ****ING FEE.
Theres really more than enough threads here, reasonable and otherwise, to see what impact asking developers to pay for their own work will be.
buhbye evemon, buhbye evehq, buhbye mypos, buhbye evemeep, **** even the api app someone in our corp is developing to help sort out loot payouts after sleeper runs is going to die.
Does anyone remember Sims1? It sucked but was a proof of concept. Sims2? it ROCKED cause of all the user created content that was FREE. Sims3? Blew chunks because EA removed the ability for 3rd parties to develop and instead wanted to sell you constant addons and upgrades.
I can't wait to browse in the evemall in my local station via incarna and be spending $ via aurum for graphical embelishemnts to my avatar and line CCPs pockets with even more money.
You really should torch your entire bizdev and marketing teams RIGHT THE **** NOW.
-O.
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The Cole Train
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:41:00 -
[613]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:42:00 -
[614]
Originally by: Angel HUN The reason the community devlops third party apps is to compensate for your complete lack of said services and/or horribly implemented alternatives.
I'd like to see this ecosystem continue just like it is. There are people in the EVE playing community with better web design, iPhone development or storytelling talent than CCP has. CCP should focus on the game and the APIs to support third party developers. They can leverage the third parties to make a bit more money without extorting money out of the third party developers.
Thus we have a community rather than subscribers merely being customers. If CCP served us everything on a spoon the game wouldn't be as much fun.
Some of you will find it bizarre, but IMHO the fact that third party stuff like Dotlan EVE Maps and EVE-Central are "needed" makes EVE Online a better experience.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Mitchello
B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:44:00 -
[615]
Originally by: Mara Rinn Dear CCP bizdev,
You have jumped the shark. The folks behind Capsuleer (who have long since abandoned the project in disgust) wanted the option to get a licence from CCP to sell their iPhone App for real money. So now you come out and propose what is effectively a scorched-earth policy of "all or nothing".
Here is how your policy should work:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528607&page=20#581
That, and several variant scenarios of the base concept has been suggested in the past. Heck, there's been customers (but also some folks from industry media) who even worked out practical scenarios, some with collecting feedback, others more from an angle of business management.
Each time, this was pretty much brutalised by means of arguments such as "immersion breaking", "we make content, not the player", "this is not an issue, this is all ours as it is our game" and more of these gems voiced by staff confusing person with position and playground with market.
By now, it is becoming more clear that once again through such distractions and opinionated convictions CCP has cost themselves yet another solid set of ventures, and it too late to be innovative or creative and thus is caught yet again in replicating others regardless of whether the model can be replicated and applied to different circumstances.
It's commendable that CCP now finally takes these routes. But the manner in which, the timing, the method, I am sorry but please, do your due diligence all the way. This devblog should never have been released in this format.
I'm sure it will once again be written off as customers whining, this entire thread. By all means, take that stand, but realise that here too you are creating patterns of self validation.
This hiccup is not about a legal slippery slope. That is an argument, and an excuse alike. The hiccup here is that due to not doing your due diligence and adhering to some simple best practices you blew a grand opportunity costing yourself once again trust and faith from customers. The details at such a point no longer matter, what matters is after creating such an event you face a tainted perception. And that, defines - again - reality.
How many times can a company smash its head against the same few stones.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:49:00 -
[616]
Originally by: Majuan Shuo And to think I was trying to convince myself to buy a PS3 to get Dust514...
Well IF this goes forward - and we pay a fee for ANY ONE of the following: EFT, EveMon, or Battleclinic
I will be unsubscribing, but not before I liquify my clone to insure I don't have the stupid urge to give CCP another shot.
What a ******ed idea.
Don't forget Dotlan - service that compensates CCPs inability to make a useful map.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:49:00 -
[617]
Originally by: Casod Sutherland CCP, have you thought about whether your "non-commercial clickwrap agreement" will be compatible with FOSS licenses like the GPL? Because if it isn't, popular third-party applications that use GPL code, like EveMon and Pyfa, will be in a lot of trouble and may well have to shut down.
I won't claim to be an expert, but first impression is that there shouldn't be much problems with it for most things. It doesn't seem like they're restricting developers' rights to distribute or modify the code they create, only how you use them to access CCP-provided data, but I'm not entirely sure how the GPL handles those kinds of inherited dependenciesà
If you split it into a "framework" and "content" kind of model, it sounds like it should be pretty safe: you are free to GPL the framework; if you want to feed that framwork with CCP content, you need to get a CCP license. But the question is, if the framework is of no use without that data ù i.e. you're creating GPL code that can only be used with the RPC and data provided by CCP ù how does the GPL handle that? After all, you're not restricting the distribution or code, which is what the GPL is primarily worried about, but the code serves no purpose for people who aren't licensed to draw on CCP-owned data. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Crache
Gallente Damogran Apathetic Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:52:00 -
[618]
Requiring a commercial license for those that take payments in ISK seems a bit unfortunate and could seriously cripple what seemed like a great way to further enrich the EVE community. I thought it was an interesting extension to the EVE economy, having out of game services also use in-game currency. If you were to assume a PLEX value to whatever ISK was paid to a developer, they may as well already be providing some level of indirect payment.
As both EVE and web technologies further mature, it seems believable that in-game web services may become a larger motivation for earning ISK than many of the built in incentives designed into the game. If you have truly dreamed up incarna to fulfill its potential and decide to be very careful about how you nurture the developer community, it might be possible EVE could pivot into something that even further transcends what a game and community can mean. It has been slowly moving in that direction, but if i read the signals right it seems like y'all are afraid of it. Maybe it's slightly warranted, but let it build more momentum before you apply the friction.
Also, I'm a bit curious what qualifies as a macro or bot that would make an app ineligible? Is using the IGB to script calls to EVE resources beyond the gray area even though the IGB can limit the frequency? Or does it only apply to apps that are directly controlling user input or modifying EVE's process in some way? I would assume the IGB has limits in place designed specifically around acceptable use, so that if it works in the IGB, then it is acceptable. Is that not the case?
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Jedonius Monus
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:54:00 -
[619]
I think you're vastly overestimating just how much money developers make out of their efforts.
First of all - there aren't many eve apps that require you to pay money, and of the ones that do I doubt many people would subscribe to them (with the exception of botting programs).
Secondly - a lot of eve apps are web based (or require web servers to distribute the setup files/updates/etc). This hosting can cost a lot and go up dramatically the more popular your app gets.
Thirdly - how the hell are you going to enforce this? And is it really worth chasing/suing people for a measly $99 per year?
The worth alone that you get out of these developers just doing what they do is massive in comparison, as it makes the game easier for new players, more bearable to play for older players (increasing subscriber retention), and provides free advertising!
Why waste your time trying to chase a couple of developers who do manage to make some money (and we're not talking a lot of money here, I'd be surprised if someone earned more than $20,000 a year after costs) off their apps for licensing fees when you risk scaring off the majority of developers who will think "well f*ck that" and abandon their projects.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 02:59:00 -
[620]
Originally by: Mitchello I'm sure it will once again be written off as customers whining, this entire thread. By all means, take that stand, but realise that here too you are creating patterns of self validation.
This hiccup is not about a legal slippery slope. That is an argument, and an excuse alike. The hiccup here is that due to not doing your due diligence and adhering to some simple best practices you blew a grand opportunity costing yourself once again trust and faith from customers.
You'd think that CCP would realise what a valuable asset their CSM is. The CSM works both as a lobby group for the customer base, and a sounding board for CCP. The communication can be filtered in two directions through the CSM.
One day it will become policy for CCP to run all customer facing material through CSM before releasing dev blogs or floating trial balloons. Until then, we're doomed to face many more SNAFUs, explode-in-face trail balloons and assorted idiocy.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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SystemAdministrator
Amarr Invision Hosting
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:03:00 -
[621]
What is this i dont even?!?!?!?!?!?!
I provide hosting for killboards, TS etc and all this and i don't make a lot of ingame isk out of it at the moment. I have to pay for our server each month which is not cheap. 99$ fee on top of this would force me to shutdown and not provide these services to give people the option not to spend real money instead to use ingame currency.
I could understand for something like an app where the developers charged real life money to use their program or service, but this is just ridiculous.
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Arydanika
Wrecking Shots Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:04:00 -
[622]
Originally by: Original Dev Post tr.v. mon+e+tized, mon+e+tiz+ing, mon+e+tiz+es
To establish as legal tender. To coin (money). To convert (government debt) from securities into currency that can be used to purchase goods and services. Cha-Ching.<-------!
and then...
Originally by: CCP Atlas 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
conflict... conflict... does not compute.
First, realize that you're contradicting yourselves.
Next, realize that YOU are NOT providing the service in this situation. We, the community, are providing the service.
We, the community, give you products that your game is missing.
We, the community, fill voids that you have over looked.
We, the community, give you free publicity.
We, the community, add value to your game.
We, the community, should NOT have to pay you for our free services, hard work and dedication and labors of love and passion for this game.
EVE Online doesn't have best community awards because of what CCP does. EVE Online has best community awards because of what WE do.
Don't ruin that and don't patronize us. It's just rude and bad business.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:10:00 -
[623]
Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 16/06/2011 03:10:59
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casod Sutherland CCP, have you thought about whether your "non-commercial clickwrap agreement" will be compatible with FOSS licenses like the GPL? Because if it isn't, popular third-party applications that use GPL code, like EveMon and Pyfa, will be in a lot of trouble and may well have to shut down.
I won't claim to be an expert, but first impression is that there shouldn't be much problems with it for most things. It doesn't seem like they're restricting developers' rights to distribute or modify the code they create, only how you use them to access CCP-provided data, but I'm not entirely sure how the GPL handles those kinds of inherited dependenciesà
If you split it into a "framework" and "content" kind of model, it sounds like it should be pretty safe: you are free to GPL the framework; if you want to feed that framwork with CCP content, you need to get a CCP license. But the question is, if the framework is of no use without that data ù i.e. you're creating GPL code that can only be used with the RPC and data provided by CCP ù how does the GPL handle that? After all, you're not restricting the distribution or code, which is what the GPL is primarily worried about, but the code serves no purpose for people who aren't licensed to draw on CCP-owned data.
I think that you can forget about GPL in this case, but that some BSD license would solve the problem.
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Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:11:00 -
[624]
This thread reads like the end of the (virtual) world.
Hellicity and I are on the same side -- and in full agreement!
Chribba is swearing up a storm and writing LONG posts.
Right now, it would not seem strange to me if pigs flew over a group of snowflakes hosting a centenarian conventions in a frozen He11!
But it IS strange to me that CCP is still asking feedback on how to improve their program ... while insisting isk donations or fees should be part of this 99$ fee!
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Kno Bodeesbitch
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:12:00 -
[625]
CCP this is bad..just bad...
I supported you vociferously when you announced your plans to sell space thongs..you have every right to run your company with an eye toward diverse income streams but this...?
Come on! You have guys that make apps for the love of the game. Support them don't smother them.
P.s. When you put out your blogs you should consider the bigger picture. You already have a player base getting used to the idea of Aurum. Was this really the time to announce this? You are going to take a big PR hit and completely alienate your base if you keep up this non-sense. Be smart!
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Jedonius Monus
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:14:00 -
[626]
Lesson learned here for CCP: leave your accounting team to processing payments and receipts, ignore any "brilliant" game ideas they have.
I can't help but wonder how many people would still play EVE without any third party apps. Hell some of these third party developers have spent years working on these things that by all rights should be included in the game itself. If anything, CCP should be paying them for developing the game for them!
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Serpents smile
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:29:00 -
[627]
Lol.
Not enough rage on the forums as it is eh? Just trow in some more fuel.
Burn baby, burn.
And you know what, maybe you will manage to burn your baby in the end by NOT USING YOUR STUPID HEAD!
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Alijah Mercer
Caldari King Wholesaling
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:36:00 -
[628]
Originally by: Outofphaze
Originally by: Kara Liselle Edited by: Kara Liselle on 16/06/2011 00:17:59 "$99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service."
Justify what cost? This is third party not a ccp service how is this an of your business? It is an out of game third party group of services ccp has no jurisdiction on. If eve was more complete and did not actually need these out of game services that would be a different story. How is me using eve-surival.org any of your business since you were too lax too include a compareable service in the programming?
If I have to start paying fee's to use EFT and EVEmon I'm gone. I don't give a rip what they have "control" over because what they don't have control over is my checkbook and my time.
This is going to create a situation of the haves and the have not's. Those that can afford the third party addons will get more enjoyment out of Eve than those who can not.
On that note LOL, Hey come on over and play eve it's a free game with free expansions. <Really?> yeah, 15.00 a month and you get it all and it's great. <Wow that sounds like a good deal> Well yeah, but to get the most out of the game you'll need this program for 20.00 and that one for 40 and access to this website for 10 and then there is this web service that is perfect if you get into industry but that one is 12 mil isk a week for access.
This is going to make a great advertising video, I'm excited to get started on making it for them!
Cost aside. CCP DOES in fact have jurisdiction to anything eve related due to copy write laws. CCP does have the right to control who can create 3rd party services because of said copy-write laws. I may be extremely ****ed about this as I have created several 3rd party sites for the eve community. That being said, sadly there's not much we can do about it
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Sven Hammerstorm
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:38:00 -
[629]
Originally by: Angel HUN CCP,
The reason the community devlops third party apps is to compensate for your complete lack of said services and/or horribly implemented alternatives.
You are kicking those who make the game playable.
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Alijah Mercer
Caldari King Wholesaling
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:38:00 -
[630]
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau I'd also like to add that this whole thing REEKS of CCP sponsored RMT (albeit the isk is sourced indirectly):
"Pay only $4.99/m and make BILLIONS in EVE with our 3'rd party app! Triple money-back guarantee!" <- mining, trading, market check, moon mapping websites
"For $4.99/m you can dominate your opponents! Your superior intel will make you a PvP god!" <- fitting tools, PvP maps, killboards, jumpplanners, ship fit databases
This would kill EVE imo, we do not want a two tiered EVE with peasants and princes. Peasants are regular EVE players that do not fork out cash on utilities, whereas princes will have a clear edge in almost every aspect of EVE, as they are paying for multiple utilities.
GAMEBREAKINGLY BAD IDEA Your entire bizdev department needs to be crucified for even suggesting this ****ed up piece of **** idea.
Sweet I'm not the only person that saw this side of it.
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Admiral Leviathan
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:39:00 -
[631]
What exactly is the service received in return when 3rd party developers pay 99$? Is this really saying "Unless you pay 99$, you do NOT have the right to develop an EVE-related app"?
I'll screenshot all my skill tabs if i ****ing have to, if that's what it takes to keep using Evemon and Eft for free.
C'mon CCP, I do my best to give you guys credit and I fully supported PI, Carbon characters, Dust514, the Rap vids, Plexes, 0.0 sov changes... but this, sorry but no. I'm mad.
In fact, I could stop using all 3rd party apps if they forced me to pay even 1 cent, JUST because it would force me to divulge some sort of info about my money. I already take a risk when I pay you and have no interest in giving someone else my paypal or cc info.
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Carli Zandrya
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:42:00 -
[632]
Quote:
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license. I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
"Might be revised" seriously needs to be "will be revised POST HASTE"
As it reads it would kill the EvE economy.
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Emperor Cheney
Celebrity Sex Tape
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:46:00 -
[633]
Hey CCP. Whatever happened to this?
Quote: celebrating the creative player reported by CCP Fallout | 2010.10.21 19:01:02 | Comments
Hello, capsuleers! I'm CCP Fallout, the Associate Community Manager for EVE Online bringing you the inaugural monthly blog series featuring EVE Online player creativity. Many tend to think of the EVE Online Community team as being nothing more than forum monkeys chasing evil peanuts across the forums, when in fact this is just one part of our job. One of the key things we do is keep an eye on the myriad ways players are creative with the EVE universe, and in my two years at CCP I must say: I've never seen a more creative bunch of players.
To start off the series, I'd like to introduce some of my favorite sites to whet your taste of the kind of things that is to come in future blogs. Many of these sites have been posted on the official EVE Online forums, especially in the My EVE channel, posted on Twitter, or found through player blogs and fansites that we frequent.
Speaking of sites, let's start with two sites that I personally frequent on a daily basis: EVE News 24 and Skill Training Complete.
Being in an NPC corporation, I tend to miss out on a lot of the great alliance wheelings and dealings and as a consequence I tend to wind up spending a lot of time trying to figure out the great politics and not-so-great trash talk that happens in the Corporation, Alliance and Organization Discussion channel. EVE News 24, while still relatively young, fills in a lot of blanks for everyone who reads it regularly.
Speaking of blanks, even the most experienced of players may not know everything there is to know about the game. EVE Online is a complex universe, and Skill Training Complete is an excellent place to not only ask questions about the game, but to help other capsuleers by answering their questions and offering advice on how to best play the game. I'm not ashamed to admit that I go there frequently to hunt down answers to some of the questions I have.
Blogs are an extremely important part of the EVE community, and their sheer numbers can pretty much boggle the best of us. That's what makes Crazy Kinux's EVE Online Blog Pack an excellent resource. Crazy Kinux periodically updates it with new sites that are active and interesting to EVE Online players of all shades and colors, and he even has a handy Google Reader subscription set up so you can easily get all the latest blog posts from over 50 of the best EVE Online blogs written by capsuleers.
In the next installment of this blog series, we'll take a look at some of the artistically inclined player creations that blow us away. In the meantime, if you create something that you'd like to share with the EVE Online community, we encourage you to create a post in the My EVE channel. Or if you have some old favorites bookmarked, weÆd love to see them make a resurgence, so post them too. Until then, fly safely!
It doesn't seem you "celebrate the creative player" quite so much, no?
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Liberty Eternal
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:51:00 -
[634]
The prevailing myth/theme on this thread seems to be that CCP suck and the players are wonderful.
I'd like to dissent by saying that in my experience, it has often been the other way around.
EVE players - you are not as awesome as you seem to think you are. And CCP deserve more respect than you give them.
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Johnathan Roark
Caldari The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:55:00 -
[635]
My biggest issue with this is the cost and the length of time and we aren't getting anything more other then formal permission to monetize. I would want to be able to purchase with a PLEX code or two, it should last longer then a year. I would also like to see additional incentives thrown in such as shorter cache timers, private api servers, access to some special apis, maybe sooner access to some apis.
Has ccp ever considered setting up something to show case some of the 3rd party apps? Such as a directory or something. The community developed stuff is one of the things that sets EVE apart from all of the other MMOs. Its such a big sandbox that productivity software is developed. Just like the corporations in RL, EVE corporations seek out software to give them an edge.
POS-Tracker 3.0 Hosting |
danyalsun
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Posted - 2011.06.16 03:57:00 -
[636]
Edited by: danyalsun on 16/06/2011 04:02:46 Edited by: danyalsun on 16/06/2011 03:59:06 Dropping by to say **** YOU CCP. You're greedy.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:01:00 -
[637]
Originally by: Admiral Leviathan In fact, I could stop using all 3rd party apps if they forced me to pay even 1 cent, JUST because it would force me to divulge some sort of info about my money. I already take a risk when I pay you and have no interest in giving someone else my paypal or cc info.
If CCP was to sell subscription codes through the EVE Ingame Store, you wouldn't need to divulge any information. The API would simply tell the application, "yes, that token for a subscription to your website is valid." Thus your only credit-card transaction would be with CCP, who you already divulge that information to.
Alternately, you would have no credit card transaction involved since you bought Aurum off someone else for ISK, then traded that Aurum for the subscription code.
Or heck, maybe you took part in a lottery for a year's subscription to Site X. All that matters is that the subscription code is valid, it doesn't matter who uses it to subscribe.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Captain Mung
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:05:00 -
[638]
]I've re-read through the original blog and the "edit", the gist of it seems to be:
DEVELOPERS:
Hey CCP we've developed lots of cool, needed tools and services for your game that your players wanted because you didn't/weren't able to provide them!
CCP:**** YOU. PREPARE TO GIVE US MORE MONEY. BTW ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, WE JUST LIKE TO SCREW PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR FREE TIME DEVELOPING THINGS OUR PLAYERS WANT LOLOOOOLOLOL.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:05:00 -
[639]
Originally by: Johnathan Roark Has ccp ever considered setting up something to show case some of the 3rd party apps?
A "third party products" section of the EVE Ingame Store would serve this function in the same way as the iTunes App Store or the Apple App Store.
Allow capsuleers to review the product, rate it, etc.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Altus Morningstar
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:08:00 -
[640]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here: You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I read the dev blog and I still can't under stand WHY they think this is a good idea? Guys, make the game, support the API, let the community do the rest or ffs implement tools like EVEMon and EFT into the game already.
The end is extremely f'ing nigh. |
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:10:00 -
[641]
Originally by: Captain Mung CCP:**** YOU. PREPARE TO GIVE US MORE MONEY. BTW ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, WE JUST LIKE TO SCREW PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR FREE TIME DEVELOPING THINGS OUR PLAYERS WANT LOLOOOOLOLOL.
I read it as being more like, "here's our first take at this idea, written by the guys in marketing who until today didn't realise that sites like EVE-Search, EVE-Central, or Dotlan Evemaps existed, much less are produced by their authors for the love of the game."
My prediction of the upcoming revision to the devblog is that it will amount to something along the lines of, "oh wow! there are people out there who write this stuff for the love of the game? Who knew? And who's this Chribba guy?"
With any luck someone at CCP will have the brilliant idea of running future dev blogs past the CSM before releasing them to the public. At least then they get the "ARE YOU FùING SERIOUS" feedback from a small group of people who can be trusted to not ***** about CCP (instantly) for coming up with boneheaded ideas.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Sciencegeek deathdealer
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:11:00 -
[642]
This. Will. Kill. EVE.
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Da Death
Minmatar Relentless Enterprises Ore Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:15:00 -
[643]
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
ahh, the egg is killing the chicken á BPOS: Absolution Curse Prorator Impel Vengeance T2 mods/Drones/Ammo
Since 2003. |
rantuket
Caldari SPORADIC MOVEMENT Merciless.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:19:00 -
[644]
Wow, you guys are really bad at this game.
If anything YOU (ccp) should be paying the guys who add so much more functionality to the game. Start with giving the guys at EVEmon and EFT free hosting for their app and pay all their related fees then work your way through the gigantic ****ing list.
Making people pay for providing content has just crossed the line into full-blown-******ation.
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Sarina Berghil
Minmatar New Zion Judge Advocate Yulai Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:21:00 -
[645]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casod Sutherland CCP, have you thought about whether your "non-commercial clickwrap agreement" will be compatible with FOSS licenses like the GPL? Because if it isn't, popular third-party applications that use GPL code, like EveMon and Pyfa, will be in a lot of trouble and may well have to shut down.
I won't claim to be an expert, but first impression is that there shouldn't be much problems with it for most things. It doesn't seem like they're restricting developers' rights to distribute or modify the code they create, only how you use them to access CCP-provided data, but I'm not entirely sure how the GPL handles those kinds of inherited dependenciesà
If you split it into a "framework" and "content" kind of model, it sounds like it should be pretty safe: you are free to GPL the framework; if you want to feed that framwork with CCP content, you need to get a CCP license. But the question is, if the framework is of no use without that data ù i.e. you're creating GPL code that can only be used with the RPC and data provided by CCP ù how does the GPL handle that? After all, you're not restricting the distribution or code, which is what the GPL is primarily worried about, but the code serves no purpose for people who aren't licensed to draw on CCP-owned data.
The GPL and most other OSI licenses don't restrict the data that an application 'dips into'. Also they don't attempt to spread the license through the data. API calls are a perfectly normal data interface that can make Open Source Software and Proprietary software co-exist.
I wonder what knowledge you have about the free license. I haven't seen it myself, so it's impossible to say how restricting it is. I asked on the first page myself. It's not unheard of that free to use development licenses specifically forbids sharing source code, or includes other NDA elements that would make Open Source development impossible. The fact that the blog mentions that non-profit developers need a free license in the first place makes me worry a bit. That shouldn't really be necessary.
But it's all guesswork on my part and impossible to tell without seeing the actual wording of the license.
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Vikarion
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:26:00 -
[646]
Originally by: Captain Mung ]I've re-read through the original blog and the "edit", the gist of it seems to be:
DEVELOPERS:
Hey CCP we've developed lots of cool, needed tools and services for your game that your players wanted because you didn't/weren't able to provide them!
CCP:**** YOU. PREPARE TO GIVE US MORE MONEY. BTW ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, WE JUST LIKE TO SCREW PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR FREE TIME DEVELOPING THINGS OUR PLAYERS WANT LOLOOOOLOLOL.
Indeed.
CCP, what is the matter with you?!? - - -
Warning: Having fun, often at your expense!
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Malrock
Caldari Mea Culpa Enigma
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:27:00 -
[647]
Originally by: Evelgrivion I find it very, very difficult to filter out my frustration at this time, so the following post is emotionally raw.
You guys at CCP really don't ****ing get it, do you.
We don't play EVE Online, your product, your bread and butter and sole source of income until World of Darkness and Dust 514 come online, because you're great; these last three years have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that CCP is anything but great.
Amen to that brother.
Players don't make these tools on the grounds of making money (though compensation for website operational costs and ISK donations are a fair place to make up some of the difference). Players make these tools for the game because the SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN EVE ONLINE are the GLUE THAT HOLDS THIS HALF-ASSED EXPERIENCE TOGETHER! You know the EVE China phenomenon? Your bull**** stinks so hard by now that people are willing to drop everything they have on Tranquility just to get away from those ****ING MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THIS HORRIBLE WASTE OF RESOURCES THAT INCARNA HAS TURNED OUT TO BE. We're only STILL HERE because of some SHRED of goodwill to the game and the experiences we have together.
AND NOW YOU THINK THAT ITS THE RIGHT TIME TO MAKE MONEY OFF THE PEOPLE TRYING TO FILL IN THE GAPS IN YOUR ****TY MMORPG?
Who is the ******* who decided to try to monetize everything about EVE Online to the detriment of the experience? Who is the bastard in charge of the corporate greed brigade at CCP, blind to everything good about CCP and EVE Online and incapable of seeing anything but dollar signs in front of their eyes? Who is the ******* who didn't step in to say "no, this will hurt EVE Online?" Either way, congratulations; you are fast tracking EVE Online to extinction. You've extinguished almost all enthusiasm people have for EVE Online as a hobby. EVE Online may be addicting, and the social web may be unique to EVE, but at the end of the day, nobody here needs you. Hell, at this rate, EVE Online won't even BELONG to you for long; Electronic Arts will be able to buy the game and Intellectual Property up in no time at all.
Give us a visit. |
Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:38:00 -
[648]
Cosmoes dug this jewel up from the past and posted it in another thread:
CCP Used to parody companies that did this
Figured with all the money grabbing comments it was fitting to link it here.
BTW-- OMG--You even ticked Chribba off.... Mr Eve is mad!
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:40:00 -
[649]
TL;DR all the comments. Sorry. It's late. :P
I for one am all for the concept of offering a commercial license to encourage developers to make use of the data offered by Eve Online to its players. It makes sense since a lot of us developers, frankly, have better ideas of how to handle your data than you do. No offense is meant by that - it's just our thing - you're thing is collecting said data ;)
I, for one, have zero opposition to the $99/yr fee. Frankly, that's low in contrast to what one might expect to pay for API access to data you are then, essentially, allowed to monetize. You can't even get access to an IP<->City lookup service for that price... and that information is public record <g>. So, I'm guessing a lot of people have griped about $99/yr given the updates to the blog. That's unfortunate. I can attest that even at $99/yr - the number of developers is limited so it's not like you're going to even make money on this venture - you're more likely to lose a little no matter what you charge.
Having said that, however, let me also say this. For $99/yr I would expect CCP will listen to the many, many suggestions and requests for data from the API from said developers instead of generally ignoring us and doing whatever you think is best for us? I only mention this because, again, we often know how to use your data better than you do (bot report tools, agent finders and others which CCP has or will soon be adding to the game itself, for examples) and having access to certain other data points in Eve would open up new avenues of development we have, thus far, been unable to explore.
I do not agree with being charged a $99/yr (or any other) fee for sites which accept payment in ISK. That falls well within the scope of the current EULA, otherwise Chribba and several others would be p*ssing themselves and you wouldn't have any of the tools online supporting Eve you currently have (e.g. killboards, forums, etc.) :)
I'm on the fence with Donation and Ad driven sites to be honest. Eve online doesn't really have a market outside of Eve online - in other words - the only thing that could possibly be advertised on an ad site would be... Eve online. It's the only thing that's relevant to the data you provide. Donations are tricky - on the one hand you are providing your intellectual property for the developer to use, but on the other hand the developer is putting in a lot of his or her time to develop and maintain the tools and websites that make use of said data - especially during upgrades. So in this instance there is risk for both stakeholders which would seem to cancel each other out. Again, the chances of anyone making a significant profit off of donations is about as good as making significant profit off of ads. Neither is really going to be possible or really viable at making large sums of money (much to the chagrin of the developers, I'm sure lol). So, meh - I don't see charging $99/yr to people who run these, essentially not-for-profit, type of sites supported by donations or advertisement.
Speaking of upgrades - will licensed developers have early access to upcoming changes that affect the API?
I'm pleased to see CCP stepping up to the plate and providing this kind of elaboration on the TOS/EULA. It's a smart move for CCP because it gives you more advertising and brand recognition in exchange for using your IP - and maybe, just maybe, it'll give the Chinese something better to do besides run RMT sites ;)
Thank you for bringing this to our attention and for allowing this discussion to happen. Aside from exposing more data to open up additional development opportunities (and thereby more advertising opportunities for you) and nailing down what constitutes an actual commercial site to license, I think you're on a great path. I look forward to learning more about this offering in the near future... especially since I'm running a handful of non-commercial Eve sites and/or tools these days ;)
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:53:00 -
[650]
Originally by: Vandrion
BTW-- OMG--You even ticked Chribba off.... Mr Eve is mad!
!!! They p*ssed off Chribba!?! Man... I gotta come back in the morning and read all these posts lol. I didn't think ****ing of Chribba was even possible! :P
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Kaahles
Deliverers of Pain
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:53:00 -
[651]
Usually I'm pretty exited about changes even the controversial ones. The microtransaction thingy for example. It's something I really hate especially in subscription based games but even there I can understand why you're doing it but this one... just NO! So here we go:
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Greg lawlers
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Posted - 2011.06.16 04:58:00 -
[652]
Originally by: Captain Mung ]I've re-read through the original blog and the "edit", the gist of it seems to be:
DEVELOPERS:
Hey CCP we've developed lots of cool, needed tools and services for your game that your players wanted because you didn't/weren't able to provide them!
CCP:**** YOU. PREPARE TO GIVE US MORE MONEY. BTW ITS NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, WE JUST LIKE TO SCREW PEOPLE WHO SPEND THEIR FREE TIME DEVELOPING THINGS OUR PLAYERS WANT LOLOOOOLOLOL.
QFT
CCP doesn't listen to anything but money, and the easiest way to get their attention is to unsubscribe en masse when you're upset over their shenanigans. that being said anyone who wishes to quit for real, send me your isk and i'll aspode it for you.
~truly
Lawlers |
Akira Samposeppa
Gallente Arthashastra
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:24:00 -
[653]
As far as i understand this. if you want to run a "free" service for the players on a "free" servers, you have to alow ads on your site and thus pay ccp 99$.
So there will not be anymore free services (maps/evemon/killboards/marketsearch, etc) for players.
Thus...every service will cost you some money.
So...alongside 15$ subscription youll have to pay lets say... 3$ dotlan maps, 5$ evemon, 4$ eft, 1$ my desktop widget for skill check, 3$ evecentral market, 4$ your killboard.
And if you do not use this services you have a direct ingame disatvantage as oposed to other players.
Alongside microtransactions that will only expand more and more and take more and more parts of the game, eve will become game only for people that are willing to cash out 50$ or more monthly on a computer game.
Yeah right...you cant imagine how much people will want to play "that" game, everybody will come in flocks to subscribe to eve. ...right?
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Kaahles
Deliverers of Pain
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:24:00 -
[654]
Edited by: Kaahles on 16/06/2011 05:28:41 Almost forgot... What's next? EVE's own app store were CCP grabs 30% of the income? Would be the next step right? So why not get it over with and kill the game finally so we can go move on to the next one?
I mean seriously guys common there is absolutely no point whatsoever in doing this unless you want to get rid of the most popular tools / services. I write a nice nifty little tool, available to everyone just because I like coding and because I'm a nice guy. Need a free license for that one no big deal. Over time the tool/service becomes popular and my server traffic spikes on a regular basis. I need to migrate to a larger hosting option, pay for more traffic and that kind of stuff is not cheap. So eventually I will be forced to use affiliate programs like shattered crystal or general advertising to remotely break even. At that point you guys step in and kill us off with another 99 bucks? Yeah... right. If I could afford that sort of money I'd be doing smartphone apps and selling them ffs.
Unless... you want those developers to stop producing the tools they make right now. Dust is about to hit and EVE Gate will be point of mutual community interactions right? But imagine this most of the tools/features/services that make EVE Gate so great are already provided by 3rd parties so nobody or almost nobody is gonna use it. Unless you get rid of them.
Maybe it's just over imagination on my part this early in the morning but now I'm definetly gonna go and get my tinfoil hat, the pair of conspiracy glasses laying around somewhere... and where's that frickin' rage-bat
EditOh and what about that stupid license? It better not be clashing with stuff like GPL, MIT License or other popular OpenSource licenses as that alone would probably kill off projects like EVE Mon. On the other hand if that's the case only the more reason to put on that tinfoil hat. Found it btw. ----------------------------- OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Contract me all your stuff so I can save it! |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:27:00 -
[655]
Originally by: Vandrion Cosmoes dug this jewel up from the past and posted it in another thread:
CCP Used to parody companies that did this
The complaint about spawning ingame objects using microtransactions is topic for the thread on microtransactions, and has nothing to do with "monetizing" third party products. Your linking that here indicates your failure to comprehend the issue this thread is dealing with.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:32:00 -
[656]
Guys, i think they ****ed of chribba. If you guys force Chribba to pay a single cent to you for his sites. Consider eve officially dead and dont even bother making new expansions, and start looking for new jobs.
SO CCP I would suggest who ever decided to put this into plan, you send him to your shanghai office and make him a janitor.
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Dorn Val
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:38:00 -
[657]
Originally by: Ix Forres Some good stuff, some bad stuff. But mostly, too little too late. Most third party developers have left already or stopped working on their tools long ago.
This. Still ****ed off at you guys for the way you jerked around the developers of Capsuleer.
Also, IMHO, I don't think you should charge real life money unless someone is getting paid in real life money. Even sites that ask for a donation should get a free license (not like those folks are laughing all the way to the bank). GTC sellers should be exempt from fees as well, since any increase in their overhead will get passed to us.
Still trying to figure out why this move to a 3rd party license is going to be so expensive for you...
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Aerick Dawn
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:41:00 -
[658]
congrats on jumping the shark, I knew you could do it. (if you implement this crap)
Should I get a license for a shared google doc?
__________________ If I'm in a fair fight, i've done something terribly wrong. |
Callidus Dux
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:46:00 -
[659]
Dear CCP,
so you want to make money with other peoples work? If you do this you should think about the following:
- Give us back our money if you are NOT be able to provide YOUR owed service like keep running the server or excessive downtimes / patch times. - Give us money if WE should do the work of YOUR Dev team and test all the ****ty crap on the test server SISI. - Do your work faster, when repeatedly someone loses his Schif because you do an emergency reboot without any advance notice
You want money for your service? THAN WE WANT MONEY IF YOU DO NOT PROVIDE YOUR SERVICE! Shure.. CCP is not always responsible for all the serverdowns her.. But this is also NOT MY fault. But I pay for this. Got it CCP?
Best regards a Customer
Oh.. nearly forgotten:
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 05:54:00 -
[660]
Hmm ccp delusions again.
If your going to charge, then can we as paying customers expect you fellows actyally start updateing and maintaining your api documentation? Have you taken a look at official api wiki page lately? PLANK... Infact i all ready pay cash for play this game and still no official api documentation.
On personal note, charging 99$ a year for something that uses ingame isk donations for funding sounds pretty stupid idea. Witch marketing monkey came up this BS idea?
Grazulations CCP, you just killed 3rd party app development on eve completely. I was going to start writing my own industrial process management system, but since this change - better scrap that idea.
I dont understand why does CCP feel need to make things more difficult then they need to be.
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NoobPwn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:05:00 -
[661]
They think they are the creator of the universe, yet failed to realize that it is just a game.
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Dorn Val
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:07:00 -
[662]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
I think you misspelled valuable customer feedback there...
This. Pathetic that you make jokes about feedback when you get pages of it CCP...
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Edisonn Trent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:07:00 -
[663]
Just noticed
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
This is versed so strangely, that eventually CCP might even bill people for accepting courier contrats or selling stuff on the market
Terrible devblog. Doesn't dissipate any potential concerns.
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NeuroSpike
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:10:00 -
[664]
CCP's new motto, Were not happy tell your not happy.
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Kronus Heilgar
Heilgar Trading Corp.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:11:00 -
[665]
Edited by: Kronus Heilgar on 16/06/2011 06:14:20
Originally by: NeuroSpike CCP's new motto, Were not happy tell your not happy.
My quote of the day.
Fight for the right to develop for free! Participate in the Don't want to be charged for developing 3rd party services that fill the gaping holes in CCP's game? Participate in the [h2]http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528705&pa |
Caphelo
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:13:00 -
[666]
Originally by: Consortium Agent
I, for one, have zero opposition to the $99/yr fee. Frankly, that's low in contrast to what one might expect to pay for API access to data you are then, essentially, allowed to monetize. You can't even get access to an IP<->City lookup service for that price... and that information is public record <g>.
BAM: http://www.ipinfodb.com/index.php
Hear that sound? It's the sound of your credibility exploding.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:14:00 -
[667]
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
this
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Saint Lazarus
Pwn 'N Play Chaos Theory Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:16:00 -
[668]
Ok assuming CCP pull their head out of their a$$ and NOT charge those who only want IN GAME cash for their copious amounts of time; killing off the free and most important, widely used apps and services, in favour of the SMALLER amount who want to spend RL cash on them.
So we get a situation where EvE attracts a very professional level of development for in game services and apps, something that gives an advantage to those willing to pay RL cash for it. This puts those unwilling to fork out 2 monthly fees at a disadvantage; Imagine having to pay RL cash for EFT, now imagine you refuse to but everyone else does and think of the tremendous disadvantage you're at.
All around I think its a BAD idea, any 3rd party service fundamental to success in EvE needs to be free -----------------
My EvE Comic
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Demy Slade
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:19:00 -
[669]
Originally by: CCP Atlas S I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
I'd rather do that if i where in your shoes because the moment you legally put a pricetag on ISK you make them free to trade and your Blockout of trading in game currency legally vurnable, furthermore you will have to prove that any and all offered so called "Applications" are indeed to be considdered comercial before charging up a license to that extend. If you're indeed taking a not set in stone aproach now's the time to take another look on that Proposal because i think the moment you try to enforce any of that you'll cut yourself and your Paying Customers, that you now plan to double charge. On that note i also like to add that i am not satisfied with a product that has been unstable and down more often then up in the time i had availible for playing mainly GMT afternoons and evenings do you plan to reimburse that to. Since you're all so eager to get down to all numbers i want to make sure that i as customer am able to charge you for not providing paid for service. Peace.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:20:00 -
[670]
Originally by: Kaahles Almost forgot... What's next? EVE's own app store were CCP grabs 30% of the income? Would be the next step right? So why not get it over with and kill the game finally so we can go move on to the next one?
Wouldn't a "30% of revenue" model be better than "$99/y regardless of how much you make" model?
Quote: Over time the tool/service becomes popular and my server traffic spikes on a regular basis. I need to migrate to a larger hosting option, pay for more traffic and that kind of stuff is not cheap. So eventually I will be forced to use affiliate programs like shattered crystal or general advertising to remotely break even. At that point you guys step in and kill us off with another 99 bucks?
If you can make RL money from subscriptions/donations that players buy through the EVE Ingame Store, wouldn't that make life easier for you?
Quote: Yeah... right. If I could afford that sort of money I'd be doing smartphone apps and selling them ffs.
People with iPhones are more likely to spend their money on your app. They're cashed up and willing to spend. So there's no reason you wouldn't want to spend the $99 for the EVE IP licence if you thought your app would even sell 100 copies.
If you pay for the $99 licence, then accept donations through PayPal, you'd only need 99 people a year to donate $1 to break even.
Alternately if CCP switched to an App Store model of selling subscriptions in-game, you would make plenty of money from people buying "donations" for you ingame. Someone like Chribba would just subscribe to the ingame store plan, list the types of donations he's accepting (e.g.: 1 Aurum, 10 Aurum, 100 Aurum) and let the players loose. No more concerns about ads for ISK sellers or mining bots!
So only the people who want to spend the ISK/Aurum will need to. Even better, with the ease of spending ISK/Aurum to support their favourite sites, more people will do so. And the icing on the cake is that through the EVE Ingame Store, these developers will get more exposure than what they currently get through the forum-only crowd. The only catch is getting CCP to spend the effort on selling subscription tokens through the ingame store, providing an API to validate the codes, and making sure they get it right the first time round (no duplicating tokens, ensuring tokens are destroyed when redeemed for codes, that kind of thing). Gotta spend money to make money, and all that.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:26:00 -
[671]
Originally by: NeuroSpike CCP's new motto, Were not happy tell your not happy.
CCP has been bought out by Comcast? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:28:00 -
[672]
Edited by: Zagdul on 16/06/2011 06:32:07 Edited by: Zagdul on 16/06/2011 06:30:44
Originally by: Ibn Faldan
Originally by: Akita T
Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
+1
Where do I submit my invoice for the developers on my site who create apps that make your game better/easier/more convenient and draw customers to re-sub?
They deserve their cut too.
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Captain Jabrilo
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:30:00 -
[673]
ohnoes! Blizzard has infested CCP with a spy who now tries to destroy EVE community
WE ARE DOOOOOMED!!! DOOOOOOOOOOOMED!! (c) Prof. Farnsworth
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Duces88
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 -
[674]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
this
CCP, common now....seriously....
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Candente
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 -
[675]
Has CCP seriously think charging the developers of EFT and EveMon a subscription fee a good idea? Sure, providing API, image service etc takes up system resource and a payment plan for developers who want to sell their software through app stores and/or require ISK subscription is a mutual beneficial relationship.
EFT and EVEMon exist because the game lacks essential features the players want. CCP should re-evaluate what are the kinds of app/services out there and make a deep reflection on the meaning of "donation".
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Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:34:00 -
[676]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
this
I still haven't decided if they have become way too greedy or just stupid as f u c k.
________________________________________________ CCP Claw > Sokata has been destroyed for boundary violation Drug Kito > Sokata you'll always be remembered as a noob in history of alliance tourname |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:41:00 -
[677]
Thread is big but I want to drop my 2 cents anyways.
A commercial venture is something that makes a product or service and then charges money for it.
A commercial venture is not something that relies on donations to stay alive.
Simple. and I'm just a college student.
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Black Madness
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:43:00 -
[678]
Still waiting for them to jump in laughing "Hey, it was a joke".
Oh wait.
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el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:45:00 -
[679]
What's the logic here? That's actually a serious question.
Originally by: devblog The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant.
What 'expenses'? Who actually buys any third party EVE apps? Why are you trying to fix something that seven years has shown isn't broken?
Everything I need in EVE is already in the game itself or on the intertubes for free. Unless you're (god forbid) radically changing game mechanics, this seems like a wasted effort.
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:47:00 -
[680]
Edited by: Dasola on 16/06/2011 06:47:46 Here by your not required to send donations, infact you are forbidden to send donations.
If you do mistakenly send isk, it will not be returned since it has no real value and would be waste of my irl time to send it back.
You may use this service for free, but as ccp so elegently but it, theres no waranty and it is served as is...
PS. CCP will you pay me 99$ year for all thoe comercial adverticements you show on my eve login screen? They do use my irl payed bandwith after all, and since theres no way to disable them.
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:48:00 -
[681]
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly. Just wanted to let ya'll know we know this thread needs it.
nut uh
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Mechnom
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:51:00 -
[682]
Originally by: Miklas Laces
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats ------------
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it. ------------ I still haven't decided if they have become way too greedy or just stupid as f u c k.
guess it's quite a bit of both...
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Zagdul
Gallente Shadowed Command Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:51:00 -
[683]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
2) Regarding this clause: Q: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? A: Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
I've spoken to Biz Dev and this is something that might be revised, possibly to exclude ISK payments. I'll let you know as soon as I know more.
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers.
Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
Do you guys have lawyers in Iceland?
I mean, I know 1st years who would have seen the problems with releasing that devblog.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:52:00 -
[684]
Originally by: el caido Edited by: el caido on 16/06/2011 06:47:34
What's the logic here? That's actually a serious question.
Originally by: devblog The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant.
What 'expenses'? Who actually buys any third party EVE apps? Why are you trying to fix something that seven (edit: eight!) years has shown isn't broken?
Everything I need in EVE is already in the game itself or on the intertubes for free. Unless you're (god forbid) radically changing game mechanics, this seems like a wasted effort.
Because there have been a few people that publicly wanted to make money off their 3rd party app for CCP's IP, and I'm sure others who contacted CCP about what awesome things they'd like to do if only they could make money. So answering those few people the only solution was to say **** off to the community at large who've done things for the players and CCP's game for years.
Primarily this is for iphone/android users wanting toys for thier phones, ie there is a market along with any who'd pay for a one stop shop or super tool that might get made if only those people could make $$$ off it. Neverming those silly people giving away thier work for years and either accepting donations or using ads to offset a tiny percentage of their costs.
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Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:58:00 -
[685]
Originally by: Dasola
Here by your not required to send donations, infact you are forbidden to send donations.
If you do mistakenly send isk, it will not be returned since it has no real value and would be waste of my irl time to send it back.
You may use this service for free, but as ccp so elegently but it, theres no waranty and it is served as is...
I see a future in "WTS 1 Trit for 10mil ISK" contracts (ex.> "I'm not accepting donations for this app/service because it's illegal. But, I do sell Tritanium for 10 mil ISK each. You can check my contracts in-game.") --- The EVE 3rd-Party Shutdown Party |
Mechnom
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:58:00 -
[686]
additional to your monthly costs,
we now offer the service of lag free 0.0 for only 99$ a year. taking part in larger fleet fights (20 and above) will cost you additional 150$ a year.
we are happy to announce that this will better your gaming experience for such little cost! and wa are thereby adressing issues that have been 'round since patch x.y
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Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:58:00 -
[687]
Am I the only one who read that devblog and felt like it could have been written by Professor Farnsworth?
"Good news everyone! *enter awful news here*"
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Shir Akeena
Panta-Rhei Butterfly Effect Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.16 06:59:00 -
[688]
When I first read the dev blog, my first thought was: "Let the ****storm begin".
Seriously, dear CCP: This is the worst idea I ever read from you. You gonna charge people who donate their spare time and skills for making tools, that the game itself should provide in the first place. And when they try to lower the hosting costs with some ad syndication, you gonna charge for it? The EVE community has grown so big over the last years that you need a decent dedicated server to run a useful web application for EVE players. Hosting costs are usually several 100 bucks per year. And now CCP is going to charge additionally for using their private property? Come on. EVE would not be the game it is now without 3rd party tools. You already participate on that!
On the other hand: what the non-commercial license is for? We agreed to the EULA, your terms of service and all the other lawyer yadda-yadda when we signed up for the game and for the API Keys. Why do you need another license agreement?
I run a small website with some tools for my corporation that make use of the EVE-API. The tools are tailored to our needs and probably not useful for anyone else. Why would I need a license for it?
Sorry CCP, this is really bullsh*t. -- Praise the Lord and hand over the ammunition |
Miklas Laces
A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:02:00 -
[689]
Edited by: Miklas Laces on 16/06/2011 07:03:05
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly.
The only thing that would not make you look like a complete r e t a r d at this point is pretending the dev blog was a late april fool or a joke. Or maybe fire the moron who wrote the dev blog, that would do as well.
But the main issue will not go away. Dev Blogs like this are definite proof that you idiots at CCP don't play the game anymore, you don't understand the game anymore and you are 100% out of touch with your own customers.
Great job, a s s h o l e s.
________________________________________________ CCP Claw > Sokata has been destroyed for boundary violation Drug Kito > Sokata you'll always be remembered as a noob in history of alliance tourname |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:03:00 -
[690]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Mara Rinn Wouldn't a "30% of revenue" model be better than "$99/y regardless of how much you make" model?
Yes, except that it requires an almost impossible amount of accounting insight unless CCP owned the entirety of the payment chain, including ad networks. Even an app store wouldn't be enough to cover all the things they want to cover.
The ingame store subscription would replace the other forms of payment. Thus the only form of revenue for a site licenced to use CCP IP would be the ingame store subscriptions.
For services that don't want to use the subscription model, the separate $99/y licence might have to apply. For smartphone apps, CCP might have to clarify with Apple / Google that ingame purchased tokens don't count as in-App purchases or subscriptions.
So rather than being ad-supported (which is a revenue model, the service gets revenue from third parties instead of visitors), services would become donation-supported. I'm confident that donations earned through an ingame store will be higher than ad revenue - partly due to a higher proportion of the visitors choosing to buy a subscription ingame because it's easy, and partly due to more players becoming visitors to a service simply because it's advertised through the ingame store.
Would you donate $1 to Dotlan using a credit card (my bank charges me $0.20 per transaction when I go over 10 transactions a month)?
Would you donate $1 to Dotlan when that only costs you Aurum equivalent to 10M ISK?
Then again, there's the one-size-fits all $99/yr contract where the developer is free to generate all the revenue they can without CCPs help.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
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Glasgow Dunlop
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:05:00 -
[691]
So having a read and basically from my point of view, as soon as this fee comes in ( CCP missing a money grab, i dont think so )
When your volcano blew up, were the bizdev team having a stoll in a park and rolled a phat one with the ash . . . ?
The community is what makes the game, this thread is 14 hours old and 24-25 pages of replies? you have ****** off the guys that make all the useful, lovly free tools that we all use and that i think we would all say 99% of players are thankful off.
if your plan does go ahead, say goodbye to:
- Evemon
Eve-Central Dotlan EFT Killboards] Ect, Ect
so no more hulkaggeddon, in fact no more hulks going to mine, because the miners can use the free tools, less pvp as the pvp'ers dont know what there best fit will be without buying the stuff in the 1st place, less market action as the player base will shrink, more corp secuirty fails, as the wont be able to check who there playing with.
WHO GIVES A RATS ASS ABOUT A RE-SKINNED SHIP, OR EVEN WALKING IN STATIONS! In Fact, Iv been playing since 2009, and in that time iv only seen content expantion at the start of me time and nothing else, everythign else has been since that time in my eyes, meh, just meh.
Just Remeber its the players that make the game and in the end, keep you guys in a job, screw with the players and you risk shrinking that player base.
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Vicuska
FinFleet Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:06:00 -
[692]
I hope you change your minds, I play this game for 4 years with 4 characters and I do not want to stop playing. If you make the Fun Sites to shut down, I would suspend my subscritoins as the 3rd party tools make this game enjoyable. What should players do without Dotlan Maps or EVEmon? Those guys doing an excellent job (not like some CCP developers of bugs, I mean features...)
THIS IS THE WORST IDEA FROM CCP!!!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:08:00 -
[693]
Originally by: Miklas Laces But the main issue will not go away. Dev Blogs like this are definite proof that you idiots at CCP don't play the game anymore, you don't understand the game anymore and you are 100% out of touch with your own customers.
I agree with you there - the folks at CCP appear to have let something else become important to them other than providing a great game to their customers.
My hope is that someone drafting up this third party licencing deal wasn't thinking things through all the way with the wording they chose. Hopefully they'll keep in mind sites like EVE-Search or Dotlan and perhaps even talk to Chribba and Wollari about what would work for the developers of free-to-the-community services.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Quinc4623
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:10:00 -
[694]
I'm amazed at the overwhelmingly negative reaction, but thinking about it I can see why. In the Dev blog it seems that the heads behind this made a false assumption about these 3rd party developers. They assumed that these 3rd party developers behind such mind bendingly useful things like EveMon and EFT actually wanted to make money. Where as most of the people in this forum claim that ad money and donations were merely off-setting the costs associated with running a website, which are far greater than the average web user realizes.
I believe that when it comes to a money making venture by a third party, or maybe making eve related apps to be sold in an app store, such a fee is appropriate. Though I agree that a percentage of profits might be better, though a challenge to keep track of potentially.
However for a service that is provided for free it seems ridiculous. The value these free services and softwares provide to the eve-expierience are valuable in of themselves, but more importantly they aren't costing CCP much. How much does it cost to run the API server? Is that what the $99 pays for? Unfortunately there's no way of knowing how much traffic a particular website/application/etc will cause for CCP, so there's little chance any one standardized fee will be appropriate for most. The Dev blog implies certain other services. Certainly authenticating some 3rd party requires manpower, somebody at a desk with a telephone, computer, and salary. But what does the person paying $99 get? Maybe support for monetizing their service, but again only usefull if you wanted to get paid anyway.
For people making a profit off of Eve, CCP deserves a cut, and those for profit 3rd parties could use a little support. However it seems they are a minority.
The majority seems to be freelance programmers, who might use ads and/or donations to make their project affordable. Most of these people help Eve online. Those who write bot software or defame CCP or Eve as 3rd parties, or hurt things in some way are a whole seperate catagory, and the EULA or TOS would have a special section for such acts. It's hard to imagine something costing significant money just because it pulls market data, or API data regularly. Limit an IP location to once an hour API access if you want.
Yes, you could concievably make money from donations or ads, but the likelyhood is not great. Charging $99 won't make much money for CCP, but as clearly demonstrated across TWENTY THREE PAGES it could scare away the most helpful of 3rd parties. Yeah, despite how mercantile people can be inside the game universe, it turns out that people involved with Eve on web are NOT in it for real world money. Assuming they are can be disastrous.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:16:00 -
[695]
Complete idiocy....
Oh look other folks are making apps and getting donations and such to pay for them.
Oh cool we can tap into that and charge them for their work without doing anything....
Way to kill player tools and innovation. No way I'm paying a commercial license fee to have a corp website, killboard, etc.
Complete morons seem to be in charge and running CCP these days, I have to wonder if they hired the idiots that 6 years ago worked for SOE....
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Alhambra Rainwalker
Caldari Rosa Alba Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:20:00 -
[696]
All these licences should be free and CCP should suck whatever costs they would incur by making monetization possible (no much by the looks of it).
These programs add much needed utility to this game and thus it is in your best interest to support them as much as possible. If you actually had to hire these people to develop tools for you it would most likely cost you far more. You may not believe it but I think many people would just stop playing without access to some of this stuff:
Evemon Dotlan Jump-Planner Eve-Central and other market tool apps Eve Fitting Tool -> Your ingame fitting is still horrid so this is absolute must Killboards Eve-Files
If all these are removed I dare say EVE would be far worse game to play. I`m sure there are more less popular but still very useful tools I even haven`t tried yet.
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Kara Sharalien
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:20:00 -
[697]
Edited by: Kara Sharalien on 16/06/2011 07:20:12 The simple fact is, there isn't much money to be made in eve online 3rd party apps. You are talking about a global market of at most approx 400,000 people. Account for the fact that many of those accounts are alts whose owners will only need to buy one license, and the markets even smaller.
I simply don't understand why this move has been made, there is no logical reason behind it. It offends me as a geek, it offends me as a player, it offends me as a customer, it offends me as a developer, and it offends me as an evangelist of the eve product.
This is not great news, and as I said in another thread, CCP can go eat a bucket of dicks if they really implement this.
Originally by: Thuul'Khalat WHY YOU VIOLENCE MY BOAT?!
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Mallikanth
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:22:00 -
[698]
I don't create anything that would be affected by this Business license implementation but even I can see this is punishing people who help improve the game for free.
Seriously bad move CCP. Did you not ask the CSM?? If you did I can't imagine they went with this as it is.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:22:00 -
[699]
Originally by: Malrock
Originally by: Tobin Shalim And how, exactly, is this "great news" for 3rd party devs? All it's going to do is force them to cough up even more money to CCP for something that, realistically, they don't NEED to pay for to begin with since they are currently free. This means that programs like EveMON, EveHQ, EveTycoon, etc will now be forced to charge its user base a monthly fee if they wish to use the program since the costs will trickle down to the end users of the programs themselves.
Bad CCP, with this and now MT that you swore you would never do, when did you become so money-hungry that you feel the need to nickel-and-dime your customers? Did some other company/investors buy you out or something? Because I cannot really explain what would have happened internally that would cause you to come to this point.
Seriously ? CCP is commercial entity, they exist soley to take your money
You aren't familiar with Henry Ford, are you? ---
Originally by: CCP Greyscale Is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:23:00 -
[700]
So you want to enforce something that GAINS YOU NOTHING but COSTS YOU HUGELY?
Uhm ... who came up with that idea? Who pulled it through?
Man, jeez, how can anyone really be that stupid? Only people who give nothing about the community and their players at all, yeah right, hate thread my ***.
And then CCP people make a huge fuzz at Fanfest etc. and say that CCP and EVE would be nothing without their players and how thankful they are etc.
You know what is worse than incompetence? Incredibility.
CCP, you are tumbling down really fast. I hope it is not too late for an emergency break to reconsider the basic attitude of some departments. |
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Rhonaiis
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:23:00 -
[701]
Originally by: Evelgrivion I find it very, very difficult to filter out my frustration at this time, so the following post is emotionally raw.
You guys at CCP really don't ****ing get it, do you.
We don't play EVE Online, your product, your bread and butter and sole source of income until World of Darkness and Dust 514 come online, because you're great; these last three years have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that CCP is anything but great.
Players don't make these tools on the grounds of making money (though compensation for website operational costs and ISK donations are a fair place to make up some of the difference). Players make these tools for the game because the SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN EVE ONLINE are the GLUE THAT HOLDS THIS HALF-ASSED EXPERIENCE TOGETHER! You know the EVE China phenomenon? Your bull**** stinks so hard by now that people are willing to drop everything they have on Tranquility just to get away from those ****ING MICROTRANSACTIONS AND THIS HORRIBLE WASTE OF RESOURCES THAT INCARNA HAS TURNED OUT TO BE. We're only STILL HERE because of some SHRED of goodwill to the game and the experiences we have together.
AND NOW YOU THINK THAT ITS THE RIGHT TIME TO MAKE MONEY OFF THE PEOPLE TRYING TO FILL IN THE GAPS IN YOUR ****TY MMORPG?
Who is the ******* who decided to try to monetize everything about EVE Online to the detriment of the experience? Who is the bastard in charge of the corporate greed brigade at CCP, blind to everything good about CCP and EVE Online and incapable of seeing anything but dollar signs in front of their eyes? Who is the ******* who didn't step in to say "no, this will hurt EVE Online?" Either way, congratulations; you are fast tracking EVE Online to extinction. You've extinguished almost all enthusiasm people have for EVE Online as a hobby. EVE Online may be addicting, and the social web may be unique to EVE, but at the end of the day, nobody here needs you. Hell, at this rate, EVE Online won't even BELONG to you for long; Electronic Arts will be able to buy the game and Intellectual Property up in no time at all.
-- Warp 9, engage! |
Gandahari
Amarr Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:24:00 -
[702]
It seems like CCP is going down the road Apple has, which is not a good thing.
When these community sites start going offline because developers refuse to pay CCP for the rights to build 3rd party apps, I will cancel both of my subscriptions to EVE.
I seriously hope CCP steps back from this plan, especially because of the overwhelming opposition from the player base...
I seriously doubt CCP just came up with this idea out of nowhere. Someone had to invest time into putting this proposal together, so it's likely that they've been working on it for a while now. Because of that, there's a good chance someone at CCP is going to push hard for the changes, because talking suits always get what they want.
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:29:00 -
[703]
Originally by: CCP Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
The lowest obstacle is 0 I believe. Well I could be wrong in Space it might be -215 Kelvin or something. ------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
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Mecinia Lua
Galactic Express Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:31:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Chribba
Stuff
I agree with Chribba, perhaps CCP should repay him and all the other freelance developers who have created tools for their fellow players to make the game playable. Repay their development time, hosting cots, etc for the last 8 years. Also figure up how much revenue they have helped generate over that time period and pay them royalties, after all they helped your game for free. Hosting their own sites takes money and asking for donations (and in some cases I doubt they'll even break even on donations) to help cover it is their right.
This is as stupid an idea posted in the devblog as SOE's change to the NGE. And I foresee the same fire taking down EVE and CCP if they pursue this course. Sad CCP has fallen so much, they once were to be admired for customer relations and their love of the game, now with recent changes etc you have to even wonder if they play their own game. SOE thought the grass was greener on the other side of the fence with the NGE, but they climbed the fence, flipped the finger at the field they left and fell straight into a barren dry sun parched field from which they have never recovered.
The ideas in the dev blog don't need just simple revision. They need to be taken to File 13 and burned.
Do this and you kill eve.
Without killboards no one will have the motivation to PVP Without EFT and EVEHQ you won't see innovation in fleet development Without Eve Search you will see interest dwindle. Without Alliance/Corp websites you destroy cohesivenesss and force folks to leave or never join them.
Do this at all and in essence you kill eve.
Thoughts expressed are mine and mine alone. They do not necessarily reflect my alliances thoughts.
[orange]Your signature is to |
Nekerjelnezest
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:32:00 -
[705]
New players always ask me about ship fitting, skills, agent missions. None of their questions can be answered with help of ingame tools. I suggest EFT, EVEHQ, EVEmon etc. All programs NOT developed by CCP. Because ingame info sources are useless.
Now you want to make ppl pay for things, they created on a voluntary bases, and made YOUR game enjoyable. I say this is a bad idea. If you would think fair, and not just counting money, you should buy the licence of all these applications, integrate them into the game, and be happy, that you can keep your players!
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SwissChris1
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:37:00 -
[706]
Quote: 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet.
Then why not charge $10 if it "doesn't matter"? -paraphrasing here :P
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Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:38:00 -
[707]
Originally by: Miklas Laces Edited by: Miklas Laces on 16/06/2011 07:03:05
Originally by: CCP Manifest Clarification post will be coming shortly.
The only thing that would not make you look like a complete r e t a r d at this point is pretending the dev blog was a late april fool or a joke. Or maybe fire the moron who wrote the dev blog, that would do as well.
But the main issue will not go away. Dev Blogs like this are definite proof that you idiots at CCP don't play the game anymore, you don't understand the game anymore and you are 100% out of touch with your own customers.
Great job, a s s h o l e s.
Yo dude, we're trying to get rid of the "R" word. Spread the word to end the word.
Also, I don't think its fair to compare R word people to CCP people. R word people never got a choice, CCP people make the wrong choice all the time.
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Heanna
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:40:00 -
[708]
This idea is very stupid, please retract it at once.
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Cyaxares II
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:41:00 -
[709]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: CCP Our Biz Dev department will give us some more answers and clarify ambiguity. Rest assured this will change to suit your needs and our aim is to make you want to develop software and services for EVE and not to throw obstacles in your way.
The lowest obstacle is 0 I believe. Well I could be wrong in Space it might be -215 Kelvin or something.
-215 Kelvin would be colder than cold
seriously, hand over your geek card, keep your hands were we can see them and walk slowly to that exit door.
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jk scowling
Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:42:00 -
[710]
Not normally one to whine, but ccp's direction is really worrying me these days.
p.s. to all the 3rd party developers, thanks for the hard work guys.
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Makko Gray
Nexus Aerospace Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:42:00 -
[711]
Edited by: Makko Gray on 16/06/2011 07:43:59
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Can't be that shocking surely.
Originally by: CCP Atlas
3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
If this isn't about making money then why do it? Why suddenly start charging services that have improving the game for years and relying on ad revenue or isk to give them reason to cover their costs.
It make no sense and will only serve to discourage the development of smaller or niche service that may rely on ads to help pay their server costs but may not even make enough from that to cover the licence fee, let alone the licence and the server.
If a commercial licence offered anything extra of value I could potentially see reasons for people to sign up to but as it is it offers nothing but headaches for many of those that try to improve your game. Even then make the free licence cover what is currently out there.
It's a really stupid idea and I would love to see one reason for it that isn't about making money as at the moment I can see none.
And trying to justify the cost as it being needed to cover the licencing program is very much a 'bureaucracy expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy' style of excuse - if the license doesn't provide anything of value to developers or the community then don't implement the license program and save everyone some money.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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buck herrick
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:44:00 -
[712]
Originally by: Alhambra Rainwalker All these licences should be free and CCP should suck whatever costs they would incur by making monetization possible (no much by the looks of it).
These programs add much needed utility to this game and thus it is in your best interest to support them as much as possible. If you actually had to hire these people to develop tools for you it would most likely cost you far more. You may not believe it but I think many people would just stop playing without access to some of this stuff:
Evemon Dotlan Jump-Planner Eve-Central and other market tool apps Eve Fitting Tool -> Your ingame fitting is still horrid so this is absolute must Killboards Eve-Files
If all these are removed I dare say EVE would be far worse game to play. I`m sure there are more less popular but still very useful tools I even haven`t tried yet.
been a while since i agreed with CVA on anything.
listen up CCP - this is utter sh*t - no two ways around it. all the above sites and more besides (news sites, etc.) would slowly die.
the effect of this is that playerbase - your player base lose interest, miss said tools and leave in droves. the purpose of fansites, apps, tools, etc. is to make bearable many areas the game does not cater for. they only help keep people playing, interested and subscribing.
your model will backfire badly.
.....that is unless, this is actually why you are doing it. server costs, vampires and battlefield clones all have your attention. perhaps the only way to reduce the lag is to reduce the subscriptions? oh....please no.
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gargars
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:46:00 -
[713]
CCP Read post 544 - by Chribba. I should hope you would listen to him even if you don't listen to the rest of us, since he is responsible for your forum even having a workable search much less the other things he has done.
I an a loyal customer of 4 years and multiple accounts, but your recent greed showing more and more in the last few month on various issues is alarming.
Too much too fast and all on top of our usual monthly fee. For what? Two other games in development we don't play or have much interest in?
I am disappointed. To the point of quitting yet - maybe, maybe not, but seriously thinking about it. I never thought I would say that. The disdain and silence you show to any criticism is too obvious. Announce and then silence is fail.
And no - no one can 'haz my stuff' if I go. I will give it to corp members and the friends I have made through my prior years in eve. The game I never thought would let me down.
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Geksz
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:50:00 -
[714]
Originally by: Mitchello
Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Please do not take this the wrong way, or personal, that is not how it is intended.
It is not very smart to say the least, to "dump" an announcement to any userbase without having made sure that you know what reception is going to be like.
A topic as sensitive as this, which you (CCP "the company") should instinctively realise and communicate on, should never be treated as an experiment.
There is a very simple reason for this. You sell a service. Your core currencies are those of belief and trust. When you do these things, you violate those currencies and deplete their reservoirs among user group types.
It does not take a genius to see how that is bad. You sell and keep on the basis primarily of that, no matter how much shiny is added on top, this is what doing business comes down to. Period.
If you cannot guarantee that you can stimulate, motivate, or guide reception and adoption, you should never take any step which compromises those two currencies. Ever. Period.
If you sold soup in a supermarket, you could get away with that indefinately. But you are selling a service model. What you do and say, is carried along forever. The specifics will be forgotten over time, but the sentiments and memories carry on, far outside existing userbases. In these days of social networking, transient media, and distributed communities you must never forget that the word of mouth that is your instrument, which grew your product, is not by definition the same as the concept of "drama sells" or "there is no such thing as bad publicity.
Why? You said it yourselves. EVE is real. It's so real, that it is life. It is an experience. When word of mouth reaches that treshold where it overshadows your own messaging (let's be honest, even if you hired half the gaming and advertising industry you would not be able to compete with the concept of social and other networking) you have a problem. Not just for EVE, but for the integrity of your brand.
Which, I am sure you are aware of, is what the currency of your enterprise is in capital and prospects.
So really, don't do these things. Just don't.
And please do not ever again (see CCP Zinfandel) experiment like this. Regardless of whether that was intended or not, perception defines reality so intention matters a lot less than the consequences. Taking the angle of "we wanted to get feedback" is wrong here. It does not match your presentation of the devblog, period. It is also the wrong angle for damage control, or even open communications.
Besides, you have a CSM, who heard nothing of you on this, if you really sought feedback. Ok fine, this CSM is not representative for the userbases of EVE, that is a shame, but so be it. But even then you have tools at your disposal. Live devblog, surveys, do a questionaire in the development section on these forums (or rather, since they are no longer representative for the actual eve community start passing word there to reach third party developers).
Sorry guys, the roundtable at fanfest, it touched quite specifically and constructively on the very issues that were put on the table in this blog as the next "stone tablet".
Please, this is not some personal playground anymore. You have an enormous potential here. But stop getting in your own way each time.
Very well said!
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Dalketh
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:51:00 -
[715]
THIS - 100% THIS.... charging people who cover for your ineptitude at tutorials or helpful tools. The hubris is mind-numbingly perverse.
Originally by: Varralee You let yourself get taken down by script kiddies
Dust 514 PS3 only
Now you want 99 bucks from the people who make the tools that actually make this game playable.
You are having about the biggest week of fail ever.
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:54:00 -
[716]
And I was THIS close to not quitting.
@Chribba: Please, for the love of all that is holy, shut down your services before you pay CCP even one cent. Once people realise that it is CCP's fault that Titans can no longer be traded or Eve Files no longer works, you'll see them crash and burn faster than something that is crashy and burny, and not a single **** will be given.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:56:00 -
[717]
Quote:
This hiccup is not about a legal slippery slope.
It's also a slippery slope.
I wasted 6 months and hundreds of euros to setup my free website, free applications and services.
I demand idemnification. If they want $99 off me I want at least $10,000 for assets and moral damage.
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Casod Sutherland CCP, have you thought about whether your "non-commercial clickwrap agreement" will be compatible with FOSS licenses like the GPL? Because if it isn't, popular third-party applications that use GPL code, like EveMon and Pyfa, will be in a lot of trouble and may well have to shut down.
I won't claim to be an expert, but first impression is that there shouldn't be much problems with it for most things. It doesn't seem like they're restricting developers' rights to distribute or modify the code they create, only how you use them to access CCP-provided data, but I'm not entirely sure how the GPL handles those kinds of inherited dependenciesà
If you split it into a "framework" and "content" kind of model, it sounds like it should be pretty safe: you are free to GPL the framework; if you want to feed that framwork with CCP content, you need to get a CCP license. But the question is, if the framework is of no use without that data ù i.e. you're creating GPL code that can only be used with the RPC and data provided by CCP ù how does the GPL handle that? After all, you're not restricting the distribution or code, which is what the GPL is primarily worried about, but the code serves no purpose for people who aren't licensed to draw on CCP-owned data.
I would love to see Richard Stallman's (Free Software Foundation and GPL inventor) opinion about this whole mess. Knowing how combative he is, he'd be surely happy to raise an international stink about this.
It's not like it takes a lot to send him an email.
Originally by: Mara Rinn
One day it will become policy for CCP to run all customer facing material through CSM before releasing dev blogs or floating trial balloons. Until then, we're doomed to face many more SNAFUs, explode-in-face trail balloons and assorted idiocy.
Not going to happen. CCP always took the CSM as the lesser evil, the high ranks hate having to deal with the CSM. It's why they bypass CSM for the things that count. Mara, it's not the last CCP employee who decided to bypass CSM, it's people in position to command it. You know who they are.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Hotaru Yamato
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.16 07:59:00 -
[718]
Edited by: Hotaru Yamato on 16/06/2011 07:59:47 CCP please do not go forward with this idea, as this is not in the community's best interest at all.
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:04:00 -
[719]
i'm worrying to see where CCP goes now, with free expansion which are no more free "free to download the shop where you have to pay with RL money to get stuff from this "free expansion"" now that greedy 99$ (******ed) request what next ?
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amarri victari
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:04:00 -
[720]
oh and one more thing - this train of thought on RMT and suing people....
trust me it will go no-where. there are ways and means and places of hosting that will circumvent this.
bigger than ccp have tried and failed to take action against larger 'IP use breaches' many times and have only chewed massive mounds of cash failing.
just look at piratebay as an example. soon rmt sites will publish foolish ccp takedown notices - all for $99 per app/site for the legit guys.
CONFRIMIGN I AM MAD !
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ChromeStriker
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:08:00 -
[721]
24 pages in under a day and i havnt seen one post that likes this? i mean even Chribba doesnt like it!!! One of the major high points of EvE is its comunity and a big part of THAT is its 3rd party, player made, sites that just expand the experiance. you really let the S**t hit the fan this tyme ccp hope your ready to clear it up - Nulla Curas |
davcin
Caldari davcin Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:08:00 -
[722]
Another bad decision from CCP... ____________________________________________
EVEViewer - view your journal, orders, transactions and allot more |
Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:11:00 -
[723]
I'm failing to see how this would help third-party developers, as you've suggested. They still can't charge real-world money, and they often already receive donations in the form of isk or services. Sounds like it is merely taxing them for what they already love to do.
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Mia Vola
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:13:00 -
[724]
New to the game.
There has been allot of announcements from ccp about changes and in the 3 months Ive gone from oh i cant wait to bet i don't reach a battle ship.
I use EveHQ to monitor my skills. when they announce that there pulling down the site because of this. Ill be leaving as well.
Theres just to many bad ideals coming out of CCP, I'm surprised by your "fck you attitude" And "We know whats best". It really feels like your remolding the game to favor DUST and dont give a Fuk what we want.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:21:00 -
[725]
What the hell is happening with you CCP ? Are you guys tired of your own game ?
Can't imagine worst decision then this to nuke your hardcore fans interest in this game. And risky all that in exchange of some lowsy (few) bucks ?
Strength and Honour |
Arcathra
Minmatar Technodyne Ltd.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:22:00 -
[726]
What the hell are you smoking CCP?
This will hurt your fanbase more than it will help them. Okay, I can live with something like a free license for non-commercial websites like corp websites. But those websites generate costs (domain, traffic etc.) and some corps or fansites like to ask for some small donations or use some ads to lower the costs. Now they will have to pay an additional fee of 99$/year, just for putting some ads on their website or asking for donations. You are forcing them to charge money for even the smallest service those fansites may provide. Are you serious?
I don't expect that much of the current fansites and tools will survive, if this extremly shortsighted plan goes live.
If you really are that desperate to squeeze the last dollar out of your customers, there more subtle ways . For example make the "app-shop" optional for fan developers. If they want, they can host their tool there and charge money for it. CCP can set a little fee on top of that and sell it for a little bit more. This way, the fan developer and CCP win. And your customers can be sure, to buy legit tools for small fees. Maybe the shop could even use PLEX/Aurum as (optional) currency, why not? Regarding website services: just ask for a registration with an eve account. This way you have your identification. Only force them to pay your fee, if they really want to run their service commercial. Apart from that don't charge any fees if they only use some ads or optional donations to finance their website, even if they are providing downloadable API tools. Just an idea...
And this can't be quotet too often, because it nails it down pretty much:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Just my 2 cents...
P.S.: Almost forgot... intigrate EFT (or some similar tool) into the damn EVE client. There is no way your customers will pay additional money on top of the already expensive (compared to most other MMO) subscription fee, just to be able to play the game properly!
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Zevran Arainai
Free Space Tech Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:23:00 -
[727]
One of the worst ideas you ever had,CCP.
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:26:00 -
[728]
Save this for the (one) guy who *****ed about not being able to become RL rich off his iPhone app. If you apply this to Chribba, killboards, Evemon, who need to be compensated in donations, to offset costs, for adding value to YOUR game.
Either that, or offer hosting with the $99.
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Doktor Csernus
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:28:00 -
[729]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
this
100%
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:29:00 -
[730]
Originally by: Erichk Knaar Save this for the (one) guy who *****ed about not being able to become RL rich off his iPhone app. If you apply this to Chribba, killboards, Evemon, who need to be compensated in donations, to offset costs, for adding value to YOUR game, you done ****ed up.
Either that, or offer hosting with the $99.
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:32:00 -
[731]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Just so it's even clearer.
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lisaaa
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:39:00 -
[732]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
this
just making sure CCCP gets it.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:40:00 -
[733]
Originally by: amarri victari oh and one more thing - this train of thought on RMT and suing people....
Even the big multi-billion companies with all their lobbyists and law-enforcement power cannot shut down the black market sites.
And CCP thinks that THEY can do anything about the little black market sites of EVE with the help of licenses?
And for the rest? Yeah, greaaaaaaaat idea to support the community and make it more vibrant by enforcing them to buy a $99 licence so that they are allowed to improve EVE, making it a better place for CCP.
This is just unbelievable. And don't come me with "it is just a draft". Even as draft it is completely idiotic. |
Talaan Stardrifter
THE PAROXYSM
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:41:00 -
[734]
To be honest, I'm perfectly happy to pay $99 per year. Providing that I'm also given a copy of the thin client (even if it is station-locked).
I agree with the CSM's comments earlier; one size DOES NOT fit all.
Pure isk ventures should be FREE, each account should have access to a developer license. RL Donation and ad supported should be minor fee (maybe $5 or $10) If and when RL subscription services are allowed, then charge $50 to $90 for that license.
My priceless opinion.
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Moron78
Blueprint Haus
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:48:00 -
[735]
Seriously CCP, seriously?
If someone makes a service that they charge for, fair enough. They are, in case, providing a commercial product that relies on a service from you. And as such I have no issue with you saying that if you want to do that there is a fee to you guys. But if I choose to buy Chribba a beer, throw 10 quid at Wollari to offset his hosting cost of a site I use several times daily or throw the aforementioned 10 quid at the guy hosting my alliance forums you are actually going to charge them? The Chribba example aside, you are actually going to do it because they have a donate button?
And then to the professional bit. ôDonation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope.ö I am sorry, this isnÆt difficult. There is nothing wrong in requiring everyone to have a license, one being free and another being charged for. Writing the terms of the license so that a site may provide means of donating to it and still remain within the free license is easy. And while requiring a little more drafting its not much more difficult to regulate sites with ads and even, if desirable, differentiating between these. Saying otherwise is either a purposeful attempt at obscuring, or a result of having obtained bad legal advice. |
Eclorc
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:51:00 -
[736]
Great news? LOL (not in an amused way).
This is fast becoming one of the last nails in the coffin for me I'm afraid. I recently resubbed both my accounts for 3 months, it's looking very unlikely that I will sub again afterwards tbqh, almost all of the new directions that Eve is being steered on have been leaving me very disillusioned with the whole thing.
The whole aurum/microtransaction direction, the nerf-bats (instead of raising lesser ships' capabilities to rebalance), the trampling over immersion and "canon" that supports the eve story (pod room/forced decanting into CQ), dumb fleet rules for incursion payouts, aurum for magic-spawned ships scandal, now this latest rip-off of a loyal fan-base just shows how out of touch, and uncaring CCP have become about the game in general and about how little they appreciate the methods and reasons that the community has supported the whole game and companies growth via the MANY value-adding 3rd party apps and sites, that add REAL value to CCP's IP at users' expense already. I am 100% certain that without eve-agent, eve-search, dotlan, EFT and EveMon I wouldn't have stuck around this long.
A donation is a donation, NOT a fee to be paid. CCP HAVE NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER TO TAX DONATIONS OR OTHER SPONSORSHIP GIVEN TO HELP COVER COSTS OF KEEPING A FREE SERVICE RUNNING. WTG CCP, and to echo previous posters: fire the idiot that came up with this screwed up idea.
The very fact that they have stated this is what they intend to do is frankly a slap in the face from CCP to anyone that has previously helped CCP by adding that value to the product. If this trend continues and I don't see some GOOD progress in the games' core gameplay and in the decisions being taken regarding the direction of the game then I for one will not be around much longer.
btw. u folks saw the "donations/using intellectual property" bit? Like, an image is IP.. so use an eve pic on your front page and accept donations, they want a licence fee? Idiots.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:55:00 -
[737]
Originally by: Moron78 And then to the professional bit. ôDonation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope.ö I am sorry, this isnÆt difficult. There is nothing wrong in requiring everyone to have a license, one being free and another being charged for. Writing the terms of the license so that a site may provide means of donating to it and still remain within the free license is easy. And while requiring a little more drafting its not much more difficult to regulate sites with ads and even, if desirable, differentiating between these. Saying otherwise is either a purposeful attempt at obscuring, or a result of having obtained bad legal advice.
It is just nonsense, the costs for professional legal advise plus implementation and the possible income from commercial licenses it completely out of balance. The costs can never be covered.
The only reasonable way to do it is to give EVERYONE A FREE LICENSE!
What is the problem with CCP if someone writes a professional app and earns some money with it? It is free promotion for them! Because a professional app-writer wants to promote his app and therefore EVE. Marketing 101. |
Anton Dimietrav
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 08:58:00 -
[738]
Originally by: Arcathra What the hell are you smoking CCP?
This will hurt your fanbase more than it will help them. Okay, I can live with something like a free license for non-commercial websites like corp websites. But those websites generate costs (domain, traffic etc.) and some corps or fansites like to ask for some small donations or use some ads to lower the costs. Now they will have to pay an additional fee of 99$/year, just for putting some ads on their website or asking for donations. You are forcing them to charge money for even the smallest service those fansites may provide. Are you serious?
I don't expect that much of the current fansites and tools will survive, if this extremly shortsighted plan goes live.
If you really are that desperate to squeeze the last dollar out of your customers, there more subtle ways . For example make the "app-shop" optional for fan developers. If they want, they can host their tool there and charge money for it. CCP can set a little fee on top of that and sell it for a little bit more. This way, the fan developer and CCP win. And your customers can be sure, to buy legit tools for small fees. Maybe the shop could even use PLEX/Aurum as (optional) currency, why not? Regarding website services: just ask for a registration with an eve account. This way you have your identification. Only force them to pay your fee, if they really want to run their service commercial. Apart from that don't charge any fees if they only use some ads or optional donations to finance their website, even if they are providing downloadable API tools. Just an idea...
And this can't be quotet too often, because it nails it down pretty much:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Just my 2 cents...
P.S.: Almost forgot... intigrate EFT (or some similar tool) into the damn EVE client. There is no way your customers will pay additional money on top of the already expensive (compared to most other MMO) subscription fee, just to be able to play the game properly!
100% agree.. CCP WTF!?
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Collezioni
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Posted - 2011.06.16 08:58:00 -
[739]
First! I love this game, and i know hard to make any game nicer and better. It's all good, but you guys there in CCP i think starting to fallling down with all of your new develop thing... I see the future : EvEsims, LOL walking on the station in cute pink clothes ( really think men like to shopping??? ) We come here to fly man!!! On the ships have nice logo and gun animations ( Just i dont know who can see that ina fleet attack when zoomming out to the maximum??? ) And now kill every free and good ( 3rd party ) stuff what some good guy made for us..... worst worst and worst, I love this game because so complicated, and age of gamers here higher than 10-12 years old.Really want to be a hard head and follow bad ideas or can change your mind? i hope eve not going to be only a stupid console game...... Better to fix bugs and throw clothes into the trash :D
thx
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Golden Gnu
Gallente The Golden Gnu Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:03:00 -
[740]
I need to know what exactly I need a license for: 1) The API 2) The Toolkit 2a) Static data 2b) Images 3) Guides about eve, like mission guides, skill guides etc. 4) Data about eve, data does not use the toolkit or the API
If I understand correct: eve.nikr.net (My fan site) does not need a license. jEveAssets need a non-commercial license.
I'll never try to make money from my site/apps, so, It will not affect me much...
But, A lot of people contribute a lot to eve and try to keep their cost down by advertisement... they need an license as well, please, help them, help you... _________________ Download is the meaning of life, upload is the meaning of intelligent life EVE.NiKR.NET - home of jEveAssets |
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skepsi
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation THE R0NIN
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:06:00 -
[741]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
+1 !!!
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Mintoko
Gallente Taedium In Perpetuam
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:10:00 -
[742]
Edited by: Mintoko on 16/06/2011 09:11:59 I apologize if somewhere within the 25 pages this was mentioned....
"Open-ended - You can charge subscription fees, receive donations, sell your app in an app-store and more"
"No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services."
A developer would be allowed to charge real money for an app or website. Where I believe people are being confused is with the term "in-game service". Someone would NOT be allowed to charge real money for an *in-game* service, such as mining, ratting, hauling, manufacturing, bounty hunting, etc. There is no possibility of an app being sold in an app-store for ISK, unless of course, the payment is Icelandic kr=nur.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:13:00 -
[743]
CCP has made a decision, guys. This will happen. No matter what you say in this thread, it won't change CCP's mind. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Kalach'Cha
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:16:00 -
[744]
CCP, you may think you are doing the right choices due to the increasing ammount of subscriptions you have been getting, but at the expense of screwing with the old faithfuls, this is particulary dangerous considering all of them have multiple accounts, and while that may not count for even half of eve population you are essentially destroying its foundation.
EVE's growth can be compared to that of a house of cards, dedicated players at its base, continuously reinforcing the foundation by getting more and more alts, while new players added height to it. You (CCP) are now, with all your changes, trying to increase it to record heights while also chipping away at its foundation. If you think that's a good thing, then enjoy becoming the new EA, however, unlike EA you wont have the "Too big to fall" trait to buffer your fail when that house of cards will inevitably crash down around you.
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Silen Boon
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:18:00 -
[745]
IÆve developed an application to help organise my planetary interaction. ItÆs not a great application, but I was happy to release it free to the eve community. One reason I was happy to make the application free was because I felt that CCP had a good attitude to third-party developers. Sadly, this appears to no longer be the case. I understand that CCP does invest a lot of time developing the APIs and releasing resources, which can be used by application developers. It would be unfair if application developers excessively profited from this. However, there is a huge difference between a commercial product created for profit, and the basement coder who just wants to cover their hosting costs.
I believe the commercial license is an excellent idea for applications developers who want to create a product for profit. But requiring a commercial license for donations and ad supported websites is wrong. CCP seems to have forgotten that community created applications are an asset to Eve Online, and their value cannot be measured in monetary terms.
If an application is open sourced, and hosted on somewhere like sourceforge (which has ads) is a commercial license required? If so, is it host that requires the license, or the application?
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Dasola
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:19:00 -
[746]
Few personal toughs:
If that 99$ is just to cover your costs of running lisence programm, then someone in ccp is skimming money (My real life work requires me to work atleast 5 hours for that money.). Considering i can register to android application developer at onetime fee of 20$ and gain appstore, etc... on that.
What does ccp offer for 99$ a year? Nothing at all. No official api documentation, no application store, no nothing... Heck official api documentation wiki page is empty as it can bossibly be.. :P
Atleast in my country as long as i dont charge users real money, i can pretty much use pictures, etc... under fair use, and expecially since it would pretty much promote original produc( EvEonline), since it would be eve raleted site for example.
But as for not i see no reason to pay 99$ year for nothing.
So enough of bad stuff.
Heres what might make me consider paying commercial lisense:
- Site/service charges real life cash for use - CCP offers something in return, example: developer available to answer questions related how exactly is api working, or proper official api documentation that actyally covers api and is kept uptodate on latest changes on api... - Application store to sell applications or their usage in one of following: OneTimeFee (Real money or isk), regular monthly sub (Anywhere from 0.5$ to xx$), monthly isk fee (Yes you claim eve is real), or supporting payment (equal to monthly sub of program/site/service...) - Ingame advert suport (Get those concord bilboards to actyally working). May cost money/isk- maybe similar to office rental calculations if isk. Preferably included to yearly lisence fee
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equcin meey
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:25:00 -
[747]
now i have not read any thing else then the OP so keep your knicker's on
think CCP should only make the license fee to software app's that want to charge real life money,things like capsuleer and eve universe as they would be making real life money off your IP.
with the 12 month license i can see where your coming from how many app's and player's have stopped playing eve or supporting their own software,so if they stop selling their software or supporting it then why should they have a license to keep selling it.
well thats my 2c worth
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Callidus Dux
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:29:00 -
[748]
One question to CCP,
do you pay Microsoft money because you build a program / game which runs on Microsoft PC's? How dumb is that person who understand the logic of CCP's devs this days?
FAIL!!!
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vyseman
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:36:00 -
[749]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Third party tools from fans (like EFT, evemon, dotlan, eve-central, ...), gadgets, fanarts etc. are making online games what they are. Preventing those creative minds from developing stuff for YOU and us is a big mistake.
EA games bought more shares of CCP, right?
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Asura Kinkaid
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:36:00 -
[750]
a giant middle finger to the fans. did i miss the part where you sold out to Activision? Since when is your legal department allowed to set company policy on development? 0 vision. MOTHER****EN MYOPIC.
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Glafri
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:37:00 -
[751]
CCP,
Fire the idiot in charge of rescuing your dwindling subscription numbers while you still have a game!
Love
Glaf
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Shonion
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:38:00 -
[752]
Seriously, who the hell interested in walking in station, dust and **** like that. This is an INTERNET SPACESHIP game with a good amount of other good thinks as spy, economic, build, manufacture, logistic, marketwarrior, etc not a freaken SPACESIMS.
If i would want to play FPS games, i go and play CS or anything else. If i want to clothes up a char i play SIMS. Seriously.
All player wrote applications is for only to improove that game. Some are free, some are accept donations. They spent a lot of time to improove the gameplay, and do the job, what you forgot to do.
Go and debug the game, or reballance t2 manufacturing, etc, would make better reputation. [url=http://freegates.podzone.net/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39036] [/url] |
Maya Hyde
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:47:00 -
[753]
The EVE community has always been supporting the game with their creations ranging from software to video productions. Such things serve to spread the word about the game.
This change you are now showing to us will only serve to kill productivity. Most people have to pay for hosting their applications and this change would only screw those people over. Some if not most of those people that make EVE-related applications have no intention of making profit out of their software and are paying for their hosting so that others can use it for free. Thus voluntary donations are the natural thing to ask.
With this change, would you be satisfied if CCP was "advertised" with the following message: "Now accepting donations to cover CCP's licensing fees and hosting"?
What next, charging licensing for making a PVP video? Come on you must see that this only serves to hurt the very playerbase that plays your game.
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Epolitus
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:48:00 -
[754]
Sry but srsly this is the badest idea CCCP ever had. Please delete dev blogs and forget that u have ever offered this to the community. this will ruin severel fan projects wich came up the last few years. tbh u force people to RMT so they can upkeep their service just to pay you.
Conclusion: Badest idea evar!
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Wotlankor
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:50:00 -
[755]
Quote: Why charge for the license at all? The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant. We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee is low enough to not dissuade serious developers from participating in the program.
- You already have lots of credit card information. Make the API licence avaliable for all credit card paying subsribers. This will make it cheaper and ensure your data integrity/non-spoof or whatever excuse you are making up.
- If you pay pr game codes like I do, a licence you pay for makes sence in some respect (though I think the impact will kill a lot of smaller and good intiatives) but the cost of making the creditcard payments is a lot smaller than your current sheme and achives the same.
Quote: 3) This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service. If this is too high for app developers, this is something that could possibly be revisited.
- Then dont charge. It works fine currently. Ofc you do it to claim ownership and control. This will elad to Mr. Apple-I-want-my-own-eco-system. Stop deluding yourself or misguiding us whatever the case is. Alternatively use above solution of making API avaliable to creditcard paying customers. Please resize your signature to no more than 120 x 400 pixels and 24,000 bytes (not KBytes) - Adida |
Max Wilson
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:52:00 -
[756]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Amaise
Raven Lords
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:56:00 -
[757]
CCP way off the mark on this one. You should clarify the great news and statements made. I dont think your 'Biz' guys have ever been on Help Channel where a ton of new players are trying to learn the game using little to no resources available in-game. I often post links from the some of the sites mentioned to get them started off. This is how I and many countless others got started off. I dont think it can be truly appreciated how much some of some of these devs have helped grow your (CCP) game at little to no benefit to themselves. Perhaps the greatest asset eve has is its community. I cant think of any mmos ive played that even come close.
Using language like 'whingers' and '9 pages of hate' /insert various faces, shows how distanced and out of touch some of you guys have become. Most if not all of the players posting here would actually stand to 'profit' isk wise if alot of these great sites and apps were taken down in the not so distant future. The newbies and players starting off would not in any way. I am beyond certain your retention rates for new players trying out eve would be lowered significantly.
Its beyond me how a money grab(cha-ching) netting less than a 'Biz Guy' makes a year can be beneficial to this wonderful game. My advice is fire a couple of these geniuses and get some more devs or resources into much needed changes players have been asking for.
I cannot imagine the countless hours these guys have spent making the free apps everyone uses. The community and game would not be what it is without ya!
PS Hilmar you should be ashamed of yourself for your comments
peace
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Sethose Olderon
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:57:00 -
[758]
Edited by: Sethose Olderon on 16/06/2011 10:06:03
CCP, you are making it increasingly difficult for me to support Eve and your company in general.
The micro-transaction fiasco has already made me quite irate, and this on top of it just adds gasoline to an already raging bonfire.
It's fine for you to create a licensing mechanism for the commercialization of the API and associated properties, however, donations are not commercialization or monetization. It is not fair for you to charge a licensing fee to a proprietor who chooses to allow donations, or offsets costs with ads, but does not require a fee or subscription for their service or product. The direct real world equivalent would be to charge non-profit or humanitarian organizations, and that's really low.
Sure, Eve is your property and you can choose to do with it what you will within national and international laws, but others don't have to support it, your company or Eve.
However, you can choose to justify charging persons who offer services or products, but do not charge fees or subscriptions for their offerings how ever you wish. At the end of the day though, it is just plain greedy, and you all know it.
I have already reached the point where I do not recommend Eve to my friends, family or associates based on your abhorrent and total lack of regard for your loyal and longstanding customers.
The most infuriating aspect of these situations is that you either SIMPLY REFUSE TO LISTEN or perhaps just DELIBERATELY IGNORE your subscriber base, and that is a recipe for an MMO disaster on the same or greater scale as Star Wars Galaxies. Alliance Owned Stargates
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John McCreedy
Caldari Eve Defence Force
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Posted - 2011.06.16 09:58:00 -
[759]
Originally by: CCP Atlas So, what's going on in my feedback thre... HOLY CRAP, 9 pages of hate!
Anyway, thank you all for your input so far. Based on your comments, I feel I should step in to clarify a few things and address some concerns.
1) The blog represents the first draft...
At the risk of being the voice of reason in a hate thread, might I suggest that you arrange a round table event either through Skype/Teamspeak/Eve Voice/whatever or at the next Fanfest and sit down with third party developers and come up with an amicable way of introducing this? One that doesn't bite the hand that feeds you.
Across the galaxy there is only war. [center] Website Forums [ur |
Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:05:00 -
[760]
Has anybody thought of abandoning the semi-shareware model and just not accepting donations? All along I have refused to pay isk for services. Once I did for a month. Its not like these developers are isk poor, most have been in game for a long time. Just quit accepting isk and keep any dropped cargo containers or unsolicited trade windows on the down low. THe isk is just supposed to show some appreciation anyhow, its a pat on the back for a job well done.
Altruism boys, screw da man not each other. This is going to head toward copy protections and passwords for the api etc etc. They are the ones that want to monetize thier API streams. Don't let them. Their game would be unplayable without your apps, It sucks we know it. Its main attraction is the open end, without it I'd have been gone in 3 months cause CCP just keeps sucking. Remember these are fish farmers.
People remember Microsoft giving away development apps, I remember when they didn't/ I remember how they shut off all third party development and changed hobby type computing and hacking around to something you could only do if you were in the business cause the development tools were through the roof. A basic package to try to develop a windows app would have been 5 months rent.
They are talking a couple billion isk here of blow money, not exactly entry level but if you think that is entry level cash you don't mind spending dollars for isk anyhow.
Can you imagine learning to play eve without eft? How about all those modules, can you see trying to compare them and fit them through the eve interface? WIthout 3rd party, Eve is incomplete and dysfunctional. Without people Eve is nothing, they need to know their place. Servants of us, the masters of their fate.
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Assaj Ventress
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:09:00 -
[761]
Originally by: CCP Atlas
1) The blog represents the first draft...
You should start most of your devblogs with a phrase like this, CCP. It will make for less whine in comments -----------------
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Selthae
Celestial Horizon Corp. Fallen Angels Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:10:00 -
[762]
Edited by: Selthae on 16/06/2011 10:10:54 Next time, watch this before manhandling your 3rdparty eco system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE |
Max Wilson
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:10:00 -
[763]
Quote: Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
As it looks now, sites like dotlan would have to pay 99$ a year to CCP. This will likely be the end of a lot of awesome services.
What the **** are you guys even thinking? No one is gonna pay 99$ for a license to help you guys make your game better. No one.
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Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:17:00 -
[764]
The Dev Blog promised "Great News". Unfortunately this was somewhat misleading. Surely the term "Monetizing Your Apps and Services" suggests allowing developers to charge real currency for their work and not just in-game ISK, however you go on to explicitly state that developers can not charge real money. If you want to charge people $99 a year for the option of being rewarded for their efforts, at least let them have the option to charge cash.
So, as the Dev Blog stands, what do you get for your $99? As far as I can see CCP are providing nothing more than exists today for free. There is no API documentation available for the people who cough up the fee, there is no additional CCP Dev access to assist with API issues, there isn't even on SLA against the availability of the API!
In principle, I'm all for changes in the EULA to allow 3rd party developers to charge money for their work, but this is not how to go about it. Your $99 licence fee should grant the developer the following:
- Ability to charge real currency for services
- Access to full API documentation
- Access to CCP Developer resources to assist with issues
- An SLA for the API
What happens at the moment is those 3rd party developers can ask for donations (either in ISK or via PayPal) or get click-through advertising money to support servers, development time, etc. This is working! Eve has a content-rich community built upon the current system. If you implement this proposal as it stands, I expect that pretty much all of the player created content and support will dry up pretty quickly and EVE will suffer greatly as a result. Basically, as many others have said:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:17:00 -
[765]
THREADNOUGHT OF HATE OFF THE STARBOARD BOW!
Ive just read (really, i did, ive got time on my hands) 25 pages of posts which disagree with this Idea about 98%
Very little objection to people who will CHARGE r/l money for an app having to buy a licence. Capitalists pay the price for being capitalists, fair enough.
A lot of objection to people who try to mitigate hosting costs with ads requiring a 99$ licence. Theyre trying to provide a service without taking food off their table to do it.
Almost UNIVERSAL condemnation of requiring a 99$ licence for even just the opportunity to receive donations of IMAGINARY SPACESHIP MONEY as a tip "nice work, heres some ISK".
The consensus from developers seems that 99$ is going to be charged for a poorly documented API feature with limited application and zero tangible support or development tools. Without further development of the API it appears unfeasible that people can produce applications sufficiently advanced enough to warrant charging for their use.
Noone in the last 25 pages has disputed that the apps developed for free by fan's who love the game improves the gaming experience. In fact most postulate that WITHOUT these apps the game becomes unplayable once you progress from
"cool, ive got a ship i can fly"
to
"Ive got a pos to fuel, invention and manufacture to maintain, skills to plan/queue, ships to fit effectively and I really need to work out how to move our cap fleet from A to B"
There have been only a few speculations as to WHY our CCP overlords feel this change is neccessary. The use of the API for commercial gain seems to be accepted by the community as something that CCP should rightly charge for (I use the term Gain to mean profit, not cover costs). The only other hypotheses are to combat RMT sites by allowing CCP to serve takedown notices or to drive 3rd party apps out of business so CCP can step into the void and charge for said apps.
Chribba is sad
Summation over, my 2 cents to the devs.
Throw your "Bizdev" team (god just that term makes me want to vomit blood) into the disused herring vats at CCP HQ to ponder what they were thinking.
Dont try to pass off ass****ing fan developers as "good news"
Consider that if an app asks for donations, its only going to get them if theyre good. If theyre good, theyve added value to YOUR game, possibly by doing something CCP should have done years ago. Stop being scroogey bastards about the movement of IMAGINARY, ZERO VALUE SPACESHIP MONEY from one player to another as a thank you for enhancing YOUR GAME.
Realize that straight talking to your customer base is good. Explain your reasoning better rather than pumping out a corpspeak PR release worded in a way that indicates "this is gonna happen, were just going through the motions here. If you have good reasoning, clearly explained, who knows we might agree!
Understand that the day I have to manually work out my pos fuel requirements, paper and pen my skill queue or give myself cramps using a calculator to fit my ship because all the good apps have vanished is the day i say goodbye. I already pay to play, im not paying to make the game playable.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This
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Lulzes
Amarr EVE University Ivy League
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:17:00 -
[766]
Originally by: Decon Ko Edited by: Decon Ko on 15/06/2011 18:41:02
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
It really needed the h2 tag, sorry.
Shame H3 doesn't work in quotes. "Nothing is so easy as to deceive one's self; for what we wish, we readily believe." á - Demosthenes |
jsaak
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:19:00 -
[767]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Jack Coutu
Gallente Percussive Diplomacy The Phoenix. Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:22:00 -
[768]
If you do this, it's honestly the last straw for me. I've put up with this garbage Incarna, DUST, WOD sidetrack, lack of expansions that are meaningful, lack of good devs. I won't stand for you ****ing the people who make this game playable by doing what your **** devs are too inept to do. Drop this idea entirely. You are going down a very bad road as of late and other games are starting to look very appealing to a lot of people.
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Stormchyld
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.16 10:24:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Tobin Shalim And how, exactly, is this "great news" for 3rd party devs? All it's going to do is force them to cough up even more money to CCP for something that, realistically, they don't NEED to pay for to begin with since they are currently free. This means that programs like EveMON, EveHQ, EveTycoon, etc will now be forced to charge its user base a monthly fee if they wish to use the program since the costs will trickle down to the end users of the programs themselves.
Bad CCP, with this and now MT that you swore you would never do, when did you become so money-hungry that you feel the need to nickel-and-dime your customers? Did some other company/investors buy you out or something? Because I cannot really explain what would have happened internally that would cause you to come to this point.
+1
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01two
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:25:00 -
[770]
This.
Originally by: Gurgeh Murat I already pay to play, im not paying to make the game playable.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This
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SystemAdministrator
Amarr Invision Hosting
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:25:00 -
[771]
The Old Republic anyone? Looking rather good at the moment compared to the current trend of CPP decisions.
P.S. Yes I am MAD!
|
Acac Sunflyier
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:26:00 -
[772]
Time to uninstall EveMon
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Max Wilson
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:28:00 -
[773]
Originally by: Jack Coutu If you do this, it's honestly the last straw for me. I've put up with this garbage Incarna, DUST, WOD sidetrack, lack of expansions that are meaningful, lack of good devs. I won't stand for you ****ing the people who make this game playable by doing what your **** devs are too inept to do. Drop this idea entirely. You are going down a very bad road as of late and other games are starting to look very appealing to a lot of people.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:28:00 -
[774]
Quote: What next, charging licensing for making a PVP video?
Videos must already pay, it's not "next".
They are hosted on ads sponsored websites. All of them. This makes such CCP IP using contents a commercial vehicle, therefore subject to commercial license of $99.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Tergiminius
Binary Star
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:30:00 -
[775]
Edited by: Tergiminius on 16/06/2011 10:35:33
Originally by: SystemAdministrator The Old Republic anyone? Looking rather good at the moment compared to the current trend of CPP decisions.
P.S. Yes I am MAD!
I have to agree with this: Sony acquires CCP's DUST exclusively for PS3 and introduces the "NGE" - they've done it before and we all know where that went, don't let them do it again by screwing the EVE people |
Rhonaiis
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:31:00 -
[776]
Originally by: vyseman
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Third party tools from fans (like EFT, evemon, dotlan, eve-central, ...), gadgets, fanarts etc. are making online games what they are. Preventing those creative minds from developing stuff for YOU and us is a big mistake.
EA games bought more shares of CCP, right?
-- Warp 9, engage! |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:37:00 -
[777]
It's probably time that CCP looks to others for an example of how to do things: The Icelandic government is asking its citizens for advice on how to change the constitution. It's time that CCP getover themselves and started asking their customers for advice on how NOT to ruin their own company.
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SystemAdministrator
Amarr Invision Hosting
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:37:00 -
[778]
Another thing i just realized. Where does this leave the makers of clear skies? They have a donate button on their page.
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Membaris Grim
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:39:00 -
[779]
Edited by: Membaris Grim on 16/06/2011 10:43:17 In my opinion, CCP evolves in a negative way like Activision and other software developer.
That's not the thing that you have promised at the fanfest. This won't work, and you only will destroy free services (example: eve-central). The game-experience will suffer, and EVE will become some sort of Asian-grinder with ig-store and fees for licenses. CCP... WiS, Incarna and Dev.Track is a bunch of ****, and you should use your capacities to improve the existent game-experience but not with such a thing like WIS and Dev. licenses.
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Asura Kinkaid
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:40:00 -
[780]
never even mind the money. any sort of licensing is by nature restrictive and at best is a hurdle for the honest and will do NOTHING to dissuade the crooks. to call it a "service" and to speak of "enabling" is yet more bull****.
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Flex Nebura
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:44:00 -
[781]
Originally by: SystemAdministrator Another thing i just realized. Where does this leave the makers of clear skies? They have a donate button on their page.
from the clear skies website.
"Why Donate?
Well, because you liked the films and appreciate that IÆve spent over 5 years working on them. I have spent several thousand hours on the series, and this time IÆve spent about ú3,000 on hardware and software for CS3 alone!
But of course IÆd have done all that anyway. This is certainly not some sort of whinge about having to put all that time and money into the EveLife project, far from it. I loved doing it, I love the result, and IÆm proud to have brought some fun and enjoyment into so many peopleÆs lives û this has been an opportunity that not many people get in a lifetime.
The Paypal donate button is there mainly because more than a few people have suggested I have one so they can show their appreciation. Sounds like a good idea to me so here it is! Get busy showing the appreciation so I can buy an Aston Martin."
So if he wants that Aston Martin.. all he has to do is pay 99$ per year to use licensed material.. Or if people donate less than that.. remove the donate button and continue as usual.
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Ksitigarbha
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:44:00 -
[782]
Edited by: Ksitigarbha on 16/06/2011 10:52:08 Oh c'mon guys - it's a good thing!
First the micro transactions in Dust, then this - before you know it you will be able to buy SP, LP, ISK and stuff for RM! Because EVE cannot be DIFFERENT than other MMO's! CCP - you are my heroes from this day on until eternity - never thought I'd live to see this day!
C-ash C-olecting P-eople
/sarcasm off - this was even difficult to write. Phew.
Edit.
C-redit C-ards P-lease
Just thought of this one
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Kraschyn Thek'athor
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:45:00 -
[783]
Sorry to be impolite.
A ****ed up Idea! 99 punches against creativity and community spirit.
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plim plam
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:48:00 -
[784]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Billy Ikkala
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:49:00 -
[785]
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
This. **** you ccp, you money grabbing asshats
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Trilli Shaw
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:53:00 -
[786]
I rarely post on the forums, but I am really disappointed and sad by this.
Not the licensing itself, that is bad enough. But that a certainly group of people has actually enough influence to pull it through and no one at CCP stepping in and calling it off right away before it gets published.
Look at thriving and vibrant communities, for example Minecraft. And how their client is improved and lots of good stuff is added after community feedback.
And then compare it to CCP. Some game designers recently even wiped off many people asking for a feature being added again (after it was removed) with the comment "I don't like it" - yes, what the community wants becomes less and less important to CCP.
This is really sad to see.
And the CEO? Calls the deeply concerned people even whiners openly and in public. HOW DARE YOU! CCP would be still in a muddy ****hole if it were not for people like Chribba, constantly and selflessly sacrificing time and money to make EVE a playable game.
Really sad.
And the dev responsible here calls it a "hate thread".
EVE could be such a wonderful game, it is has such an awesome community, it is so deep and with immense potential.
All lost - unless there is a major upheaval, but it doesn't look like this. |
Alvar Kesh
Gallente Ealurian Shipyards
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:56:00 -
[787]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
---------------------------------------------- Ealurian Shipyards' high quality BPC shop |
ninjaholic
House Aratus Fatal Ascension
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:57:00 -
[788]
Chribba, Wollari, Grismar, Chruker, Six Anari. No offence meant to other key members not listed here, but these are names that roll off my tongue easily when someone mentions community services as I've used their tools on hundreds and hundreds of occasions over the now, 5 years 9 months I've been a subscriber.
I couldn't possibly have gotten started the way I did if I didn't have these resources or tools available.
If anything, CCP should be providing plex or similar as a reward for the hard work of these, and many other, community contributors who have worked hard to provide a now essential service to Eve. Maybe CCP have lost perspective on the place and importance of these key community tools?
Or maybe this is just a lesson for CCP Atlas that the first line of his blogs should be a warning of some sort.
+ Support EVE's own IN-GAME fight record tool! |
Furb Killer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:58:00 -
[789]
Quote: 1) The blog represents the first draft...
Ah so you gonna iterate on it the usual CCP way?
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Grash Freedom
Gallente I Maza
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 10:58:00 -
[790]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
THIS
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Xaelion
Snuff Box
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:00:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
+ 1
Don't do it CCP. Dont go die on me yet!
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Itchy pants
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:02:00 -
[792]
Edited by: Itchy pants on 16/06/2011 11:05:35 Edited by: Itchy pants on 16/06/2011 11:02:42 To everyone rage quitting - can I have your stuff?
Please contract your stuff to me, also send me your isk.
That is all.
Itchy Pants
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Asura Kinkaid
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:04:00 -
[793]
whoever came up with this may want to start looking for a new job
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Max Wilson
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:05:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Flex Nebura
Originally by: SystemAdministrator Another thing i just realized. Where does this leave the makers of clear skies? They have a donate button on their page.
from the clear skies website.
"Why Donate?
Well, because you liked the films and appreciate that IÆve spent over 5 years working on them. I have spent several thousand hours on the series, and this time IÆve spent about ú3,000 on hardware and software for CS3 alone!
But of course IÆd have done all that anyway. This is certainly not some sort of whinge about having to put all that time and money into the EveLife project, far from it. I loved doing it, I love the result, and IÆm proud to have brought some fun and enjoyment into so many peopleÆs lives û this has been an opportunity that not many people get in a lifetime.
The Paypal donate button is there mainly because more than a few people have suggested I have one so they can show their appreciation. Sounds like a good idea to me so here it is! Get busy showing the appreciation so I can buy an Aston Martin."
So if he wants that Aston Martin.. all he has to do is pay 99$ per year to use licensed material.. Or if people donate less than that.. remove the donate button and continue as usual.
This is a good example. Projects like 'Clear Skies' is making EVE a lot better. It's already expensive and time consuming for the people doing it. But this will make it cost 99$ more a year, or force them to remove the donations button, witch will also make it more expensive to run the project. Whatever the people behind the donation based projects decide to do, this is bad news for them.
Let's make a theory example here: A service needs 100$ a year to host their site. They used to get 80-90$ a year via donations, and pay the rest of their own pockets. With the new rules they have 3 options if they want to continue:
1. Pay the 99$ and start charging money for the service. This is bad for the users, and they will probably get a lot less users.
2. Pay the 99$ and keep on being donation based. This will give them a yearly loss at 110-120$ compared to 10-20$ before.
3. Stop tanking donations. This will give a yearly loss of 100$.
Now. CCP, please tell me which of these options is better than how it was before?
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Capri Sern
Minmatar PCG Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.16 11:07:00 -
[795]
There are far more entertaining ways of committing PR suicide CCP.
----------------------------------------- "There is no such thing as an effective segment of totality" Bruce Lee - the only man with a Chuck Norris Killmail |
Talaan Stardrifter
THE PAROXYSM
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:09:00 -
[796]
Originally by: Itchy pants To everyone rage quitting - can I have your stuff?
Please contract your stuff to me, also send me your isk.
You have, of course, paid your $99 yearly fee for earning a profit from CCP IP?
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Zun Da
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:10:00 -
[797]
Edited by: Zun Da on 16/06/2011 11:12:11
Originally by: Itchy pants Edited by: Itchy pants on 16/06/2011 11:02:42 To everyone rage quitting - can I have your stuff?
Please contract your stuff to ratokus, also send me your isk.
That is all.
Itchy Pants
Have you paid your $99 license fee? Because you are advertising some service and want donations for that.
If not I will contact a lawyer. They charge for license violations even without any involvement of the party that offers the license.
Yeah, reaaally nice idea CCP, letting loose those dunning fee sharks.
There is no faster and more efficient way to crash EVE into a grinding halt than destroying the community.
I wonder if some competitors smuggled in some black ops guys, destroying CCP from the inside. But looks like CCP is fully capable of this on their own. |
Crayathan
Gallente Body Count Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:11:00 -
[798]
I seriously don't know what to think about you any more CCP.
You seem to have completely lost the plot. I think you've managed to damage eve more then Lulz has with epic fail. |
Wonator
2nd Blood Raven Assault Squad
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:14:00 -
[799]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Hiryu Jin
noXCorp Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:14:00 -
[800]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:15:00 -
[801]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I wonder if CCP have realised this yet?
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Hun Jakuza
24th Imperial Crusade
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:16:00 -
[802]
Just one picture from the real CCP.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/imageagl.jpg/
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente Heimendall Holdings
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:17:00 -
[803]
Edited by: Quazal Atreides on 16/06/2011 11:22:22 OK
A few links just to show what services will be affected by this non-sensical change
Link to services provided in game
Every one of them services charges an isk fee... Mine is donation based, so for me to offer a service that only has value in game i have to pay r/l money ... thanks but no thanks..
So 5 posts of services are all going to have to go bye bye.... Then we get to lotteries (after all they are making isk) So basically thats 80% of all the WTS forums gone......
Then lets look at one of the major bonuses of Eve.. the ability to buy 'n' sell characters..
firstly we have a post that CANNOT list his skills on a site such as "eveboard" or likewise. Then all character will have to type EVERY skill they have in the forum post... (yes great fun that will be) because we cannot use OOG websites for screen shots etc, after all we will be making isk from them...
So character transfers will just be a hive of crap posts, dodgy posts... things like oops sorry i typed Battleship level 5. but only have battleship level 1
Then we get to Supercap transfers... This wont happen... because without people such as chribba/darknesss/grendell who secure these transfers for a small cost wont be able to do it without paying $99 for commercial licence... So will you trust your 20>80bill in the hope that you get that shiny titan/SC or let me jump in your nice nyx before i transfer money.... So good bye super cap transfers..
Basically what makes eve such an enjoyable game is the ability to diversify into many many different areas....... If you have the skills to create a website such as "blink" "rothbards casino" etc then all power to you, you pay out of your own pocket to host/design/build these sites...
Gambling will cease given that lotto sites wont have random number generators such as chribba/random.org as they out of game applications.
Now my suggestions.
1 someone posted in early part of thread about charging ú/$1.00 per year to each user that wants to use his api key for applications... 2 hell even have something like ... 28 days for plex use then 2 days per plex charge for using api.. (this would amount to 24days extra days per year in fees if you want to use api for anything), or even 1 plex per year charge to have access to your api key, this could be done through account management. 3 Allow ISK ONLY donations.... this is something you can control/has no real life value out of eve. 4 WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES, THIS WILL maybe not kill BUT WILL DESTROY EVE and its community..
final point,.... Even Blizzard and WoW allow third party applications to be used without charge..... and thats sad ....
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Trinneth
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:18:00 -
[804]
Originally by: CCP Atlas Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
You allow it now - it's not tricky, it's not confusing, and it's certainly not a slippery slope. You know how I know it's not a slippery slope? You just celebrated your eight year anniversary - by now we'd have slipped to wherever that slippery slope leads.
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Plague Black
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:19:00 -
[805]
Edited by: Plague Black on 16/06/2011 11:19:36
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
+1
What is next? EVE NGE and porting it to PS3? Have you been sniffing too much volcanic ash?
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Astroyka
Caldari Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:20:00 -
[806]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
CAPTAIN INSAINO
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:23:00 -
[807]
Originally by: Astroyka
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
^ this too, i have written thousands of lines of various external apps for eve using the api system. I will not be applying for any license for anything i spent time writing, free or paid for. |
Hathrul
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:25:00 -
[808]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Guru Gor
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:27:00 -
[809]
What specific products and services fall under the commercial license? will it be possible to sell such as T-shirts with original designs and logos eve-online base using this license?
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Sethose Olderon
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:28:00 -
[810]
Now, after 27 pages, let's see how long it takes for this thread to be "unstickied". Alliance Owned Stargates
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Efraya
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:28:00 -
[811]
Originally by: Hathrul
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
PCaBoo
Ammo and Tag Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:29:00 -
[812]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
________________________________ Stop nerfing everything! |
Crayathan
Gallente Body Count Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:30:00 -
[813]
Originally by: Efraya
Originally by: Hathrul
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
DethApostle
Amarr Ammo and Tag Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:31:00 -
[814]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Insert ironic sig here |
Dominik Miethling
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:31:00 -
[815]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Sometimes it's just funny how CCP gets "great" ideas to improve our gaming experience
|
Ununni
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:34:00 -
[816]
Originally by: DethApostle
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Femina Mactabilis
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:36:00 -
[817]
Dotlan Maps, EVEmon, EVEhq, EFT, iClone. Just a few names of Apps that I use to make-up for features that CCP has not bothered to make/develop. And now you want to charge developers a fee for developing stuff you should have developed yourselves? Seriously. ****ed. Up.
Start fixing the game mechanics first! Instead of thinking of USELESS features such as Incarna, Micro-transactions and now an API License fee.
P.S. There'd better be an option to display the old hangar in Incarna!
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grapheem
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:38:00 -
[818]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Xythe Marstolt
Minmatar Stark Industries PtyLtd
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:38:00 -
[819]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Althus Treefingers
Minmatar Voluval Security Services
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:38:00 -
[820]
Mostly:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
And:
Originally by: CCP Atlas
Cha Ching
But also: I was pretty sure from the last time I read the EULA that certain services for ISK were considered acceptable since they were for game-related use only and the tools were not available in-game. So how much of that would change? I've done a few logos and sigs for ISK over the years, many of which use image dumps or desktop backgrounds as source material (sometimes screenshots). Are you gonna go all DRM on us and demand licensing for what might (very loosely) be called derivative works? Or is this only a problem if I use something other than in-game tools to set up the sale? (i.e. no website) Will I need the non-com license to just download the dumps a look at them?
And finally:
Originally by: CCP Atlas services created using the ... In-Game Browser ....
Is this even a thing? You make it sound like people are using the browser itself to actually write the apps or something, not just as a delivery mechanism.
|
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Bernadictus
Caldari S.A.S Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:40:00 -
[821]
Edited by: Bernadictus on 16/06/2011 11:40:11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayy7BEIOF2o
The new CCP themesong.
|
Zakarumit CZ
Amarr Zakarum Industries Exiliar Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:41:00 -
[822]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Peyatoho
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 -
[823]
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats [URL=http://img687.imageshack.us/i/trexshadowsigpeya.jpg/][/URL] [URL=http://g.imageshack.us/img687/trexshadowsigpeya.jpg/1/][IM |
Salomei
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 -
[824]
F-ing rent seekers is what you are, CCP.
|
Lady Kincaid
Gallente LESNE DZIADKI
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 -
[825]
Edited by: Lady Kincaid on 16/06/2011 11:44:16 How to avoid 99$ tax legal way:
Each 3rd party service owner will create a corp in eve, and each customer will join that corp using noob alt (for example jita pc alt). After that its perfectly legal to transfer isks from each main to alt in that corp (as long as account credentials eg name email, are same). Then you can transfer isks from your nob alt to 3rd party corp wallet. That isks can be sonsidered as payment for 3rd party service, but for ccp its normal corp payment for membership or donation for corp stuff ;). Transactions corp member <> corp wallet are perfectly legal.
And thats all.
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Alysina
Gallente Everset Dropbears
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:42:00 -
[826]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Shang Ty
Degenerate Corp Get Off My Lawn
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:43:00 -
[827]
This is a terrible idea. First off, the price is way out of line for what is provided. You are not Apple, who does charge $99 for a developers license. But with that, you get access to a developers kit, documentation, developers support boards, the latest beta code for their products, etc. At least with Apple, you can make a good bit of money (i.e. get rich) if your app is a hit.
Even World of Warcraft with their game mods do not do this. For people who write mods for the game, they can ask for donations, but Blizzard disallows ANY type of fee for it. They did this when Carbonite (a quest helper) came out and started requiring a subscription to their service. It stopped this type of activity, but still allowed for people to donate to mods they supported.
This is a money grab, plain and simple. You will end up doing more harm than good to not only the developers of these wonderful sites and applications which support your game, but also to your customer base of gamers. Requiring $99 if anyone receives .01 ISK, a small donation, or anything to help offset the cost of running a website is absurd. People like Wolari and Chribba *MIGHT* make enough to offset the cost of running their respective websites, but you are going to put the nail in the coffin and end up having them shut their site down. And I don't blame them. It wouldn't be worth the bother anymore when CCP decided to not support the community who loves their game.
I cannot imagine EVE without the outside sites, since CCP does not update their own database/wiki websites, provide API documentation that is current, provide a workable forum search, offline maps, fitting tools, etc. CCP has even offered up many times how the community has come together to build these great tools and sites for the players to use, and now in one move is going to kill most of them.
If CCP's intent is to destroy the community and its own game, you are doing a fine job of it. You have made your bed, and I hope you enjoy lying in it.
|
Falrec
Amarr Aurora Odyssea
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:46:00 -
[828]
Originally by: Zakarumit CZ
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
THIS
CCP will lose more money than he will earn. It really is a crap idea, there is no need for graduates to understand it.
YOU ARE DESTROYING YOUR OWN GAME, better than RMTers. Da da da.... |
Ugleb
Minmatar Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:47:00 -
[829]
Lets say that my alliance has a forum and a killboard. Our admin pays for the hosting of out of his own pocket. There is a small commission from shattered crystal, but less than the hosting bill and less than $99 a year.
Will he now be required to stump up a further $99 a year to CCP?
If yes, and he dropped the shattered crystal link, would he then be exempt?
It seems to me that hosting community sites for EVE is about to get more expensive for the community, and probably see shattered crystal's ad banners vanishing from many a killboard.
The Journal; Walking The Road To Liberation |
Mynxee
Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:49:00 -
[830]
28 pages of strong negative reaction and CCP remains essentially invisible in except on page 9 where Atlas made his sarcastic comment. No surprises, there, I guess.
Nothing about CCP's so-called 3rd party monetization "proposal" sounds like they did any serious analysis of potential ramifications. If they had, they could have answered the most anticipated questions right up front in the dev blog, and maybe even based their "proposal" on feedback given by some of their most dedicated 3rd part devs at the FanFest round table (which was apparently ignored according to Wollari's comments earlier in this threadnaught). Or...I don't know...conducted a proper needs/business analysis that involved the target audience? But no...again we see the infamous "throwing **** against a wall to see what sticks" mentality that Hilmar and CCP are so proud of. Why they persist in this matter when it so consistently produces nothing but a ****ty wall, I do not know.
---------- My Blog: Life In Low Sec |
|
Samillian
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:49:00 -
[831]
I had begun to think there was hope for CCP over the last few months what with some things actually being done right for once.......but:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Do every player a favor and take your BizDev team out and alpha them.
|
Prodiwan Renobie
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:51:00 -
[832]
Let me get this straight: I am developing a little application for my personal use. I decide to make it public, since other people might find it useful. I won't charge for it in any way, but still welcome ISK donations. I'll need to buy a commercial license for that?
That would be ******ed.
|
El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:52:00 -
[833]
So its almost lunchtime, think you could come out from under your desk Atlas and address these concerns? Or is this like every other devblog that the EVE population finds offensive, just go to quiet mode and do it anyway, players be damned!
SOE tried that and more and more CCP is doing it, be careful lest you suffer SWG fate....
|
Raid'En
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:53:00 -
[834]
Edited by: Raid''En on 16/06/2011 11:55:54
@CCP : here's a summary of all you need to read here :
1 ) Paying a licence for ads on websites :
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Here's HOW MUCH I make for providing the six and totally free and open to everyone services on my self paid hosted website : A WHOLE 0.26 Ç in 6 months!!! http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7792/63121218.png[
Originally by: Chribba As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off
2) CCP, you remember you gave us CSMs, to talk about important things, like for example... THIS ?
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Unfortunately, CSM was not given a preview of this devblog.
3) What's everyone is thinking here :
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Originally by: Chribba
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense?
4) Paying a licence ON SOME CASE is okay, but for god sake, not for EVEERYTHINGS !
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow Differentiate between different classes of licensee; there are probably three: those who charge a RL$ fee, those who accept RL$ donations or sell ads (especially to cover costs), and those who charge in-game fees or accept in-game donations. One price does not fit all, and arguably all but the first should be free or a token ($1).
Originally by: Akita T Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
Originally by: Chribba Firstly, you seriously need to make a DISTINCT difference of in-game and out-of-game payment/donation/fees. I personally don't see any legitimate reason for me to like pay a license fee in order to run my in-game 3rd-party service that generate me ISK income in-game.
5) The last word :
Originally by: Chribba And I know from my personal developments that I would never have thought about it if the first thing I needed was to pay a license fee. With a license, most of any future idea will never become more than just an idea. Quote:
/Thread
|
Shazina Sin
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:55:00 -
[835]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Vicuska
FinFleet Raiden.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:55:00 -
[836]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Moraine Queen
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:56:00 -
[837]
I am going to respond in one simple sentence
'Fire your dev team'. I'm serious.
When the dev team stops listening to the player community and thinks they know better its time for them to be fired. And I see a lot of that going on with this team right now.
Get your freaking priorities right instead of trying to milk everything for money or you wont have any left.
|
Ceq Lysander
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:57:00 -
[838]
CCP have some customer feedback:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
|
Consortium Agent
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:57:00 -
[839]
heh. Light firecracker... walk away.
So, CCP, I guess you have your answer. Don't even suggest charging a minimal fee for commercial access to your intellectual property for the purpose of monetizing 3rd party apps. No, clearly the community has no need for commercial access to your intellectual property.
I understand why many are p*ssed off. Some aspects of your initial plan just, well, suck and were not well thought through. I, personally, understand what you're trying to accomplish... and had you not suggested charging a commercial license free to people who make ISK or accept donations/display ads on their eve related sites the reaction wouldn't have been so violent.
I'm smart enough to recognize that you were never really going to be able to charge 3rd party developers who run free, ISK or donation/advertisement based websites. Partly because you already expose a public API and don't have the time, talent or wherewithall to go after every Tom, D*ck and Chribba <g> that runs a fansite, and partly because I knew the reaction to that suggestion was going to be bad... I didn't realize (and neither did you) that it would be *this* bad... but Eve players are some of the most passionate people I've ever met - and that's a good problem to have as a game developer. Sadly, nobody else seems to know that yet. Give them time. They'll catch on eventually.... maybe.
I know you stated that nothing was set in stone and you opened the forum specifically to see what people like and don't like about the idea. Damn that one misstep tho - I was all ready to talk with other developers about monetizing commercial sites. Now I have pages and pages of euro-whine, ameri-tweaked asshats who couldn't be bothered to read and try and understand the scope of your comments. In fact, I suspect many people simply jumped on the bandwagon on this one.
To the Eve developer community. Chribba, et al. I know you've been at this forever bud, and I'm on your side. Free and ISK/Donation/Ad supported websites who are not expressly monetizing the Eve API data should not be charged any fees whatsoever. Period. I'm pretty sure CCP has gotten that message now. And if not, there should be another 20 pages of people calling them asshats to reinforce the notion.
However, the underlying premise of charging for commercial license to make money off of CCP intellectual property, if you step back for a moment, is a boon for us developers. The players probably won't like it so much, but paying a commercial license fee will actually help create even better solutions. I'd pay for EveMon every month to be honest about it. It's worth it for me, as a player. As a developer, it would be worth it for me to engineer commercial applications that charge a monthly $$ subscription and the incentive becomes to write the best commercial applications possible to make it worth people's time to use and money to spend. That's the incentive CCP is trying to offer. And ultimately, if they do anything it should be just commercial websites whose only intent is to make money.
Many of us developers write tools, apps, websites and whatnot for Eve simply because a) we enjoy writing the tools, apps and websites on a personal level, b) we enjoy a certain level of notoriety within the community, and, of course... c) we love Eve online. I'm one of them. I have no intentions of monetizing anything I've already done and CCP can't force me to pay them one red cent to keep running them, really. Locking down the API will kill Eve. So, tough choices for CCP and players at the moment...
To the players and developers I say this: Relax. It was never going to happen in the first place. It was a slip of conscious thought on the part of CCP Atlas. You free and ISK site, donation and ad based sites will not be affected by this. What this does is open opportunities for the developers to create commercial tools they can charge for. You don't have to, but you'll have that option whereas now... we don't. See!
|
Hecate Lionfire
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 -
[840]
Edited by: Hecate Lionfire on 16/06/2011 11:59:53
Originally by: PCaBoo
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
|
Glasgow Dunlop
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 -
[841]
Originally by: PCaBoo
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Also to quote a Mr M. Jackson :
Skin head, dead head Everybody gone bad Situation, aggravation Everybody allegation In the suite, on the news Everybody dog food Bang bang, shot dead Everybody's gone mad
All I wanna say is that They don't really care about us
All I wanna say is that they don't really care about us
All I wanna say is that they don't really care about us
|
Moraine Queen
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 -
[842]
Originally by: Vicuska
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Kestix Wulff
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:58:00 -
[843]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This and custom designed items you¦ll need to buy plex for? GREAT NEWS! ccp you really wanna improve the profit, don¦t you?
|
Lequil
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 11:59:00 -
[844]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
charge $99 for celestial steeds to come
|
Ivanna Nuke
Gallente Holders Of The Cowbell
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:00:00 -
[845]
Originally by: Ceq Lysander CCP have some customer feedback:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
qft
|
Velicitia
Open Designs
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:01:00 -
[846]
Originally by: Samillian
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Do every player a favor and take your BizDev team out and alpha them.
this...
or at least make them actually PLAY THE ****ING GAME.
caveats * they're not allowed to use ANY of the third party stuff * their text is a different colour than normal (so we know it's the bizdev ****wits) * THEY DO NOT GET CCP SHIPS -- 5k isk and a noobship, just like what we got
|
Jedonius Monus
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:01:00 -
[847]
Even if you do only keep this change for the people who charge subscriptions/purchases for their apps (afaik no large guys do this except for the botting programmers). How are you going to enforce it? You're going to lose more money than you make suing these people.
|
Madcapnl
The Rising Stars -Mostly Harmless-
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:03:00 -
[848]
Edited by: Madcapnl on 16/06/2011 12:06:02 Hmm I wonder why CCP is only hiring one person on their marketing department http://www.ccpgames.com/en/jobs/job-details.aspx?jobid=249. Seems they need A LOT MORE then just one. This week has classic marketing disaster written all over it, don't you think?
CCP might need to consider setting up a decent commmunity communication department that does not spin, but actually communicates as intended here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication
I quote:
Communication is the activity of conveying meaningful information. Communication requires a sender, a message, and an intended recipient, although the receiver need not be present or aware of the sender's intent to communicate at the time of communication; thus communication can occur across vast distances in time and space. Communication requires that the communicating parties share an area of communicative commonality. The communication process is complete once the receiver has understood the sender.
Maybe CCP should read this and then communicate again with their customers, before none are left.
Edit: excellent communication on the technical issue at startup of the server today.......oh wait.
My sincere apologies for the lack of messaging. We encountered a technical issue at startup which prevented the server to get up in a timely manner. Tranquility is open for business now. @ 12:01 when the server is back up already....
|
Ivanna Nuke
Gallente Holders Of The Cowbell
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:04:00 -
[849]
Originally by: Ceq Lysander CCP have some customer feedback:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
qft
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:04:00 -
[850]
TO THE NEW OLD NEW FORUMS! BE HEARD LOUDER -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
|
Myra2007
Millstone Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:05:00 -
[851]
Will those biz dev guys show up here or do they prefer to destroy the game from the shadows? Will Hilmar explain why he thinks everyone here is a whiner and how this devblog was in fact completely reasonable? (That's what he said on twitter only to delete it later - got no balls?) --
Originally by: CCP Elais
It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
|
quygen
Minmatar Acting Neutral
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:05:00 -
[852]
Playing Eve for 6+ years, this is is BY FAR the worst Devthread I ever read.
Dudes, read Chribba's post, you ****ed off Chribba..
Doesn't that mean ANYTHING?
Get your act together, some are already shutting down their effort. This is not showing love, to the people that love the game
|
Hecate Lionfire
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:06:00 -
[853]
Originally by: Ceq Lysander CCP have some customer feedback:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT.
qft
|
Wookieelover
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:07:00 -
[854]
Well my first post on these forums, sad that it has to be this topic.
I really do hope CCP lifts their game sometime real soon, In the year i've been playing EVE I've noticed a changing attitude towards the customer base at large. This is totally a money grab and can not possibly benefit the community in anyway shape or form. If this is about combating RMT then they should come out and say so, or find a more productive less con traversal way of doing so.
And for the CEO to Twit that his customers (the ones that help pay his salary) are whiners shows that they are seriously out of touch with the game community, Atlas's comment that it was a pages of rage also shows a lack of understanding the community feelings. Do these guys even play EVE ? Their attitudes are saying otherwise.
Come on CCP pull your collective heads out from your asses and see what your doing, hurting the community that has made you what you are today, but might not be tomorrow if recent events continue unchanged.
|
Ivanna Nuke
Gallente Holders Of The Cowbell
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:10:00 -
[855]
Originally by: Wookieelover Well my first post on these forums, sad that it has to be this topic.
I really do hope CCP lifts their game sometime real soon, In the year i've been playing EVE I've noticed a changing attitude towards the customer base at large. This is totally a money grab and can not possibly benefit the community in anyway shape or form. If this is about combating RMT then they should come out and say so, or find a more productive less con traversal way of doing so.
And for the CEO to Twit that his customers (the ones that help pay his salary) are whiners shows that they are seriously out of touch with the game community, Atlas's comment that it was a pages of rage also shows a lack of understanding the community feelings. Do these guys even play EVE ? Their attitudes are saying otherwise.
Come on CCP pull your collective heads out from your asses and see what your doing, hurting the community that has made you what you are today, but might not be tomorrow if recent events continue unchanged.
^ THIS
I have been on EvE since 2008, and loved it, seriously guys are you lot high on something? drop the dev accounts and come on and game with us all, learn your own game, don't hide behind dev accounts and programming studios with your "scrum" parties. GET ON THE GAME and chill with us players and see what we love about it so much, and why we will "rage" (defend) our game and our way of enjoying it.
Sure in the end it's "your" game you make it, but in the proverbial end we are the ones who pay to keep it running and you are seriously ****ing off a huge portion of your playerbase.
|
Macsadbro
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:11:00 -
[856]
Quote: 1) The blog represents the first draft of what our bizdev department is thinking of in terms of the license agreement. We published it to get feedback from you guys. This is not the final word on the matter and we want to build this service up with you so that it's fair and empowers you to build these applications and services which better the game.
Quote: 4) Nothing is set in stone. We're willing to reconsider anything you deem unfair about the program. Donation and ad supported ventures is a tricky thing to allow without any sort of a commercial license though and that's a legal slippery slope. Whether that license needs to be $99 per year is something we might reconsider.
My god people. You guy's do know that there are Apps out there that have been waiting for something like this right? Who knows, Capsuleer may come back! (not that i will benefit from that, i lost my ipod ;( )
Harden up.
Read this. It helps
|
clixor
Celluloid Gurus
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:11:00 -
[857]
When companies start lying to their customers you know it's only going downhill.
1. Atlas claimed that BIZ DEVS are responsible for this TERRIBAD idea. First of all, any bizdev that comes up with this **** should be FIRED directly.
Second. In the later post by ATLAS he said it's not about the money, why are BIZ DEVS involved then?
2. We wouldn't need all these apps if CCP deliveres their promises. EVE GATE? 1000x fail, nobody is going to use this EVER. But yeah, sorry paying customers, we have to allocate dev time to create microtransactions you ALL want so bad.
|
SwissChris1
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:12:00 -
[858]
Edited by: SwissChris1 on 16/06/2011 12:12:43
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you
|
Melina Wolf
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:12:00 -
[859]
Originally by: Hecate Lionfire
Originally by: Ceq Lysander CCP have some customer feedback:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Demy Slade
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:13:00 -
[860]
While i understand the comment of this beeing an opurtunity for developers to charge for their work. I do also see a poorly formulated statement and proposition in this dev blog that proves legaly liable, especially for people that are just running small sites to support the Eve Community. And on the other hand i can not preach i don't want my ingame currency made a real life tradegood and then post in the so called first draft my own intentions to do so. That is just wrong.
|
|
Baron Holbach
Ammo and Tag Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:15:00 -
[861]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
SwissChris1
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:15:00 -
[862]
I wonder how many more hate posts CCP needs until it will scratch the idea completely...and beat THE BIZ DEVS with a stick!
|
Noname Nonfactor
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:16:00 -
[863]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Ivanna Nuke
Gallente Holders Of The Cowbell
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:16:00 -
[864]
Originally by: Noname Nonfactor
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
marinko26210
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:17:00 -
[865]
Originally by: Ivanna Nuke
Originally by: Noname Nonfactor
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Princess Slayerher
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:18:00 -
[866]
Edited by: Princess Slayerher on 16/06/2011 12:20:38 Edited by: Princess Slayerher on 16/06/2011 12:20:00 If as Atlas says it's not about the money, then why oh why are they wanting to charge $99 for licencing ?
If it's not about the money then they could make it a free licence of charge $1 or similar.
$99 is purely and simply a cash grab. Some pencil pusher in the bizdev department had a brilliant idea during a late night brainstorming and hey presto "wonderful new changes, to make your lives easier"
CCP dont hand us a glass of **** and say it's wine. Because it's clearly not wine, it's foul and a cheap grab for cash.
Oh Frak i accidently posted with my alt.. Wookieelover
|
Nankeen Heron
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:18:00 -
[867]
"Monetizing" for the lulz?
|
Lord Cath
Amarr Gung-Ho
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:20:00 -
[868]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
_________________________________________________
|
Hecate Lionfire
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:20:00 -
[869]
Originally by: Lord Cath
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
SwissChris1
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:21:00 -
[870]
Edited by: SwissChris1 on 16/06/2011 12:21:05 CCP needs the extra cash to help protect them from scriptkiddie hackers
|
|
Falrec
Amarr Aurora Odyssea
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:22:00 -
[871]
Edited by: Falrec on 16/06/2011 12:23:00
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
/thread Da da da.... |
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:23:00 -
[872]
Nerfing nullsec was "easy" despite the 117 page customer feedback thread that said "NO", because the opinions of posters on that thread could be attributed to in-game politics.
This time, CCP, you can't count on in-game politics to turn this thread into trollfest (even if you know that the community is right). --- The EVE 3rd-Party Shutdown Party |
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:23:00 -
[873]
Originally by: Macsadbro My god people. You guy's do know that there are Apps out there that have been waiting for something like this right? Who knows, Capsuleer may come back! (not that i will benefit from that, i lost my ipod ;(
Remember: STOP, THINK, OBSERVE, PLAN, and only then, act.
Read the devblog. Read it again with this in mind: there are services already running out there which are "free" but ad-supported. They generate revenue through advertising. These "free" services will have to find extra revenue to pay for the $99/yr licence since they generate a few tens of dollars a year from advertising.
That is what the ruckus is about.
We are raising a ruckus because we want to make sure that CCP gets the message: the current format of the conditions means that CCP will be charging third party developers for the work that those developers are doing for free to make the EVE Online community the wonderful thing it is.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
shadowace00007
Amarr Beyond The Gates
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:24:00 -
[874]
Originally by: marinko26210
Originally by: Ivanna Nuke
Originally by: Noname Nonfactor
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I could not have said it better myself. ----------- Born Amarr, Raised Minmatar.
|
Kasimir Deadalus
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:27:00 -
[875]
CCP reached the next Level in "milking the Cow"
|
Vigoth Ritic
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:29:00 -
[876]
GREED !!!!, I bet SONY is making them do this..ccp has sold out !
|
Stromgren
Amarr Forcas armadas Moon Warriors
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:29:00 -
[877]
Bad move CCP, very bad move.
I'm playing this game for 8 years now (yes this char make 8 years today) and this "license need" is by far the most greed things that i see in all this years.
Charge people that are improving your game for free arent a smart business decision.
Stromgren |
Fredas Malente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 12:35:00 -
[878]
Charging people you are; work for free to make your game better they do. Asshats you are. </yoda>
Ok CCP, so I'm pretty sure your intention here is a good one one. You want to allow monetisation of certain apps and things in specific ways, which is neat. Possibly even allowing people to use the EVE license or API in ways that would be unthought of now.. $99 is probably too much for that considering the lack of support you offer on your side, but I'll leave that for now.
..unfortunately the ridiculous "legal slippery slope" argument that implies that ads and a donation button on a website is in some way equal to actually charging for an app has turned this topic into a complete laughing stock.
Coupled with that there's the ambiguity in the devlog that seems to imply that this could be applied to practically anyone or any fansite, whose usage of your IP in many countries laws would come under some form of fair use clause.
CCP, you NEED to quickly come out with some specifics, clarifications and reversals to what has been said in your devlog.
- Please CCP, clarify that you have no intention of charging Chribba, EveMon, EFT, or in fact any of these guys for doing what they are doing right now.
- Point out that the intention of a licensing charge is to allow people to do things or charge for things that they currently are not allowed to do, and not to charge developers for the right to do what they currently are doing.
- Listen to developers who are pointing out that even if they were to want to try monetising their creations, $99 is FAR too high a charge considering the lack of support or service CCP is offering in return.
- And most importantly, backpedal completely on your classification of donation supported, ad supported or isk supported things as being "commercial".
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Fractal Muse
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:38:00 -
[879]
To think, I thought it was reasonable and then I read this.
The only aspect that I scratched my head at and I hope they revisit (change) is charging the license fee for in-game only services for ISK. That doesn't make sense to me. But, I can see how that would come out of a meeting.
The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal. I guess since I've worked at a different end of the technology spectrum that deals with licensing and APIs I'm far too used to seeing fees into their thousands.
If your app is totally free then there is no charge.
That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.
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Hecate Lionfire
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:41:00 -
[880]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Macsadbro My god people. You guy's do know that there are Apps out there that have been waiting for something like this right? Who knows, Capsuleer may come back! (not that i will benefit from that, i lost my ipod ;(
Remember: STOP, THINK, OBSERVE, PLAN, and only then, act.
Read the devblog. Read it again with this in mind: there are services already running out there which are "free" but ad-supported. They generate revenue through advertising. These "free" services will have to find extra revenue to pay for the $99/yr licence since they generate a few tens of dollars a year from advertising.
That is what the ruckus is about.
We are raising a ruckus because we want to make sure that CCP gets the message: the current format of the conditions means that CCP will be charging third party developers for the work that those developers are doing for free to make the EVE Online community the wonderful thing it is.
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WisdomPanda
Gallente Goatriders Horde The Scapegoats
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:44:00 -
[881]
I can understand where CCP is coming from in regards to wanting to clean up the 3rd party development scene. The water surrounding services or development for isk/money is murky at best. It's over due a solid rework, despite what the clowns are QQ'ing about.
I would suggest a KISS approach to both the structure and explanation;
- Commercial License - You may use the EVE API and IP to gain a commercial (real world) revenue (aka "make money" off it), for a fee. (regardless of how it's generated)
- Free license - You may use the EVE API and IP to gain ISK revenue, or for free ventures.
My advice if you are going to charge anything over a token amount (like $0.10) is to make sure the customer gets value for money. For example, would a real API website be so much to ask for? (More of that, less of this.)
As for the fee amount... for a year, assuming I was trying to make irl iskies off it, or if it gave me access to some extra goodies/tools, I'd say it is fair at $99. But I'd definitely want something for it, instead of just an almost worthless license. ----- Cheesecake, Natures ultimate weapon.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:44:00 -
[882]
Originally by: Fractal Muse If your app is totally free then there is no charge.
That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.
If your app is ad-supported and makes a hundred dollars a year which helps offset your two-hundred per year hosting costs, the $99/yr licence fee will wipe out any benefit you got from the advertising.
This is not the Apple App Store. These developers do not have millions of cashed-up teenagers looking to spend money on something new. The maximum market is 300 thousand (assuming that every subscribed account belongs to a unique player), and these are people who pass their time playing computer games instead of going to the theatre or having coffees at expensive cafTs.
So perhaps you are too used to the world where licensing fees are in the thousands, because the expected revenue is in the millions?
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Lukas Rox
Torchwood Archive
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:45:00 -
[883]
Originally by: Fractal Muse To think, I thought it was reasonable and then I read this.
The only aspect that I scratched my head at and I hope they revisit (change) is charging the license fee for in-game only services for ISK. That doesn't make sense to me. But, I can see how that would come out of a meeting.
The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal. I guess since I've worked at a different end of the technology spectrum that deals with licensing and APIs I'm far too used to seeing fees into their thousands.
If your app is totally free then there is no charge.
That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.
Wrong, if you deploy a free app on a website with ADS you have to pay the fee. If your app is a website and you run ADS on it, you have to pay the fee. The problem with ADS is they rarely make enough money to cover the running costs. ---
Faction Ships | Sansha NPC |
Khira Kitamatsu
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:45:00 -
[884]
Well if this goes through the Android app we were working on(similar to battleclinic's loadout builder) for Android phone users will not get finished. We had no intentions of charging anyone but would have liked to have asked for donations to off-set the hours of work put into the development of the app.
It is really cool app. As you load in the different modules like for weapons and what type of ammo you would use it takes into account your gunnery skills you pre-loaded into the app, and then calculate the damage output for the gun. Same for missiles, etc, etc...
It will even tell you the top speed your ship could fly at based on rigs, modules(overdrive units, afterburner, mwds) and your various skills that effect your speed. It's a really cool app.
I guess we'll just use it ourselves.
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Roman Clevik
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:47:00 -
[885]
If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL
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Hecate Lionfire
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:48:00 -
[886]
Originally by: Roman Clevik If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL
Probably find your in-game and ban your account.
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DJ Xaphod
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:49:00 -
[887]
Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 12:49:07
Originally by: Fractal Muse The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal.
Apart from compared to anything else comparable.
I understand you aren't used to things at this end of the spectrum, fair enough.. In perspective, this is the same as Apple's charges for writing iphone apps, yet they have the whole appstore, a reliable hosting infrastructure and a full SDK and support to justify that charge. To get your app on the Android Market costs less; afaik this isn't even a requirement for Android apps, just a requirement for Market. As a directly comparable example, It's perfectly ok to have adverts and donation requests on a website hosting an addon for World of Warcraft.
Quote: If your app is totally free then there is no charge.
That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.
It depends on how you classify "totally free". Totally free and hosted on a website with ads to either cover hosting costs, or because it's a free webhost and ads cannot be disabled, will mean a commercial license will be required. Even having a donation button on the hosting website, which is allowed by Blizzard for World of Warcraft app builders (see above), means it counts as a commercial app.
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Roman Clevik
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:51:00 -
[888]
Originally by: Hecate Lionfire
Originally by: Roman Clevik If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL
Probably find your in-game and ban your account.
yeah that's the only thing they can try to do ...
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:53:00 -
[889]
Originally by: Khira Kitamatsu Well if this goes through the Android app we were working on(similar to battleclinic's loadout builder) for Android phone users will not get finished. We had no intentions of charging anyone but would have liked to have asked for donations to off-set the hours of work put into the development of the app.
The obvious answer here is: finish the app, charge real money for it, buy the commercial licence. This is a non-issue, except that you will have to take the leap of faith that enough people will buy the app to cover the licence fee.
Android programmers are in a better situation than iOS programmers since you're pretty much free to make money however you want - charge for the app, charge subscriptions for the app to keep working, whatever.
The only issue of concern to you is whether you believe your app will sell enough copies at a reasonable price to cover the cost of listing in the Android Market and the cost of the CCP licence. You're in control of one variable there, just put the price up to $2 and hope you sell 100 copies a year :)
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
George Agdgdgwngo
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:55:00 -
[890]
Heres a solution to CCPs idiocy.
A group of programmers can be considered a single "company" or "developer" by every countries law, so everyone wanting to program merely joins the "FREE TO JOIN PROGRAMMER CORPORATION OF BONUS MONEY INTERNETS" and can use one licence aslong as all the programs developed are named "F2JPCBMI - (program name)". Problem solved.
I propose Chribba head this up as everyone loves the chribster, except chribba he hates him self deep inside.
Thus CCP only net $99 out of this colossal waste of time and money, ofcourse now Ive posted this theyll probably say "oh no wait its per program".
In short: **** off CCP dont hurt those that are helping you make the game better.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:55:00 -
[891]
Originally by: Roman Clevik If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL
They could bar your application from accessing the API, for starters. Your EVE API based application might become a little useless without it.
Other than that, yes they could sue you for copyright violation, which in most countries carries rather severe penalties.
-- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Dea Morti
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:56:00 -
[892]
Hi CCP guys!
First of all I have to quote a very true comment of this thread:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
And here come my thoughts.
What the f.u.c.k is wrong with you guys? Why are your so terrible in marketing your product?
Let's check some facts: 3rd Party Development is not violating the Eve Online EULA at point 11 (PROPRIETARY RIGHTS) at all! (too long to quote EULA Nobody is takes your intellectual property and uses it for his own business.
You want a fee for something where you already get one. For understanding I quote the EvE Online EULA Point 2/A paragraph 4: Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.
This leads me to my next point...
Donations how ever they may look like, doesn't matter if they are real money or ISK, are voluntarily. That means if someone is coding in his spare time some really cool stuff and provides it for free(all those awesome services like EveMon, EvEHQ, dotlan, eve-central, chribba stuff at all, and so on) and another guy likes it so much that he would even give something back to the coder, thats no profit oriented business at all and not violating the recent Eula paragraph I quoted.
You should show more respect to this guys! In fact they are working for you! They provide a network of useful tools making your product even better and OMG it's free for you and the rest of the community. You have not to pay a single kr=na (Icelandic currency) for their work. Instead of trying to charge them you should think about a service to pay them 99$ a year for what they are doing for YOU!
Conclusion: It's absolutely hilarious that you even think about that 3rd party developers should pay you. Think about of hiring them as full time or freelancers. You have to pay them no they have to pay you! The best way for you guys is to delete this hogwash idea and find your way back from moronism!
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:58:00 -
[893]
Originally by: George Agdgdgwngo A group of programmers can be considered a single "company" or "developer" by every countries law, so everyone wanting to program merely joins the "FREE TO JOIN PROGRAMMER CORPORATION OF BONUS MONEY INTERNETS" and can use one licence aslong as all the programs developed are named "F2JPCBMI - (program name)".
Which is pretty much how a Django based web site works - one web site, multiple "applications" sitting side by side, sometimes sharing libraries (for example, the Django-ised Python library for accessing the EVE API). -- [Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Tecknoth
Caldari Pandora Requiem
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Posted - 2011.06.16 12:58:00 -
[894]
Edited by: Tecknoth on 16/06/2011 13:04:38 CCP You're doing it wrong. Simply state that the only app needing the commercial licence are the ones that actually charge the user for their usage of it. Donations, and yes even advertising should in no way be included in the deal.
Unless you want to kill any form of possible refund for those out there that are willing to serve the community for free...
EDIT :
Originally by: Dea Morti Donations how ever they may look like, doesn't matter if they are real money or ISK, are voluntarily. That means if someone is coding in his spare time some really cool stuff and provides it for free(all those awesome services like EveMon, EvEHQ, dotlan, eve-central, chribba stuff at all, and so on) and another guy likes it so much that he would even give something back to the coder, thats no profit oriented business at all and not violating the recent Eula paragraph I quoted (...) You should show more respect to this guys! In fact they are working for you!
Quoting it, because it's so much true ! _________________
Tecknoth iNsIdE
Ad Astra
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:02:00 -
[895]
*sigh*
CCP - please just stop being a business and stop trying to make money. We all want to play Eve for free and we all want to have a voice in where your game is going - but damn you we don't want to pay you for it!
I agree with your CEOs interpretation of this thread. The devblog was 'reasonable' in that it clearly stated nothing is set in stone - these are just ideas. Sadly, everyone actually thinks what was written in the devblog is already a reality and the decisions have already been made. See what *not* listening to your player community buys you? Distrust. Perhaps you should use a bigger font, a different color... bold and/or italics, perhaps, to draw attention to statements like 'Nothing has been set in stone' so folks might pay attention. Might. Until then they're all just whining little carebears with carebear tears that taste so sweet. ;P
I've said it before, I will say it again (and again, and again). The underlying premise of charging a $99 (or whatever) fee for commercial use of API data will lead to many commercially viable tools for the community.
So, CCP, quell the growing storm by redacting your original statements about charging free, ISK based, donation or ad supported websites for API use and focus on the one decent part of the entire concept that nobody is really *****ing about.... commercial use of your data for commercial purposes.
But no, you're scared now. You've opened a big ole can of worms and nobody brought a fork with them. You'll simply walk away from this shaking your heads wondering why you even bother trying to provide the Eve online community with added incentives to build awesome commercial tools the developers could actually make money on. You mis-stepped. Corrective action is required. Make the corrective action so we can all get down to the business of talking business. Redact your statements. Please?
Again - developers, players, et al. CCP has received the message loud and clear. We don't want and do not feel it would be fair for them to charge developers to use the IP of Eve that are not specifically monetizing their websites in a 'pay for play' sceanrio. We're offended that CCP would even consider it and it seems like they're a bunch of money grubbing asshats. They're a business, so yeah - they're money grabbing asshats anyway - but they provide a unique service to the world. There is no other sandbox like Eve anywhere. There is no game that pushes technology as hard as Eve Online has pushed. CCP has simply offered one perspective on offering commercial license of their IP - their perspective. Now they got to hear our perspective. Continuing to call them asshats, which is mildly amusing, isn't solving anything. It's simply polluting the forums with emo reactions to an otherwise sensible and reasonable RFC. 'No, we don't think we should have to pay for a commercial license if we're not running a commercial enterprise that makes any real money' would have been equally sufficient in communicating your message folks. Just sayin. :P
I will continue to watch this thread for a redaction and subsequent quelling of the emo carebear tears. Perhaps then we can talk about the only important issue left - commercial use of EVE IP by commercial applications for the express purpose of making cold, hard cash. :)
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:02:00 -
[896]
Boycott the ****ing license. Run the websites with ads anyway. If they threaten to sue, its eve and them who lose.
Also, what could they sue for except for IP infringement? Remove all critical references from the app/site and they can go **** themselves.
By criminalizing devs who don't want to put both time and money INTO eve they are just forcing them to do stuff more anonymously/underground, which blurs the lines to the darker aspects of eve like rmt... Eve and CCP lose again. ________________________ CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
BuRniZZ
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:03:00 -
[897]
CCP Atlas has some great news is really really dumb.
I'm in my 4th year, tried out pretty much everything the game has to offer, and the last expansions have had virtually no content I'm interested in. Why am I still here, because of all the things the community has built up outside the game.
Dotlan, FHC, Kugu, Evemon, Eft, EVEMEEP, loads of bloggers, Chribba! and probably a lot more I can't remember is what makes Eve what it is to me. The people running these sites are the reason I still pay $550 each year to play your game. And now you want to charge THEM money? Even if they just get paid in isk/donations. What is wrong with you?
Your marketing department is what attracts new players to the game. The 3rd party enthusiasts are what keep bittervets subbed. Don't kill their enthusiasm by being greedy bastards.
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Arkon Hjallian
United Systems Navy Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:05:00 -
[898]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
+2
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Ivanna Nuke
Gallente Holders Of The Cowbell
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:05:00 -
[899]
Originally by: DJ Xaphod Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 12:49:07
Originally by: Fractal Muse The rest: $99 / year licensing fee to be able to charge for an app? That's a great deal.
Apart from compared to anything else comparable.
I understand you aren't used to things at this end of the spectrum, fair enough.. In perspective, this is the same as Apple's charges for writing iphone apps, yet they have the whole appstore, a reliable hosting infrastructure and a full SDK and support to justify that charge. To get your app on the Android Market costs less; afaik this isn't even a requirement for Android apps, just a requirement for Market. As a directly comparable example, It's perfectly ok to have adverts and donation requests on a website hosting an addon for World of Warcraft.
Quote: If your app is totally free then there is no charge.
That, to me, is reasonable and appropriate. I'm not sure why so many people are upset by that.
It depends on how you classify "totally free". Totally free and hosted on a website with ads to either cover hosting costs, or because it's a free webhost and ads cannot be disabled, will mean a commercial license will be required. Even having a donation button on the hosting website, which is allowed by Blizzard for World of Warcraft app builders (see above), means it counts as a commercial app.
I wonder DJ will ER have to cough up also?
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Ensei Grad
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:05:00 -
[900]
this is BS. if you really go through with that i will have to quit eve. even though i love this game so much a very big part of that is the community around it. by charging for such services you are basically trying to kill a big part of this community i.e. telling them to pay for the huge service they provide for the game otherwise to (understatement here) get out.
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WisdomPanda
Gallente Goatriders Horde The Scapegoats
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:07:00 -
[901]
Originally by: George Agdgdgwngo A group of programmers can be considered a single "company" or "developer" by every countries law, so everyone wanting to program merely joins the "FREE TO JOIN PROGRAMMER CORPORATION OF BONUS MONEY INTERNETS" and can use one licence aslong as all the programs developed are named "F2JPCBMI - (program name)". Problem solved.
Developers are nothing if not of varied beliefs. I don't see a huge amount of "yay" in the idea of giving over your baby for some umbrella corp to own. (They would own the idea as CCP saw it, not you.) ----- Cheesecake, Natures ultimate weapon.
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Yaghar Abygrian
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:08:00 -
[902]
Originally by: Windjammer BizDev = Marketing. Marketing is the single greatest source for really bad ideas in any corporation IÆve ever been directly involved with, associated with, or studied. The department draws egotistical, self-assured, incompetent idiots like no other department. With that in mind, you really canÆt blame the ôBizDevö department for release of this first draft. Simply put, they should not be held responsible for release of this ôfirst draftö. No one should expect better from them.
Include the the legal department and I couldn't agree more.
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DJ Xaphod
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:09:00 -
[903]
Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 13:11:47 Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 13:09:35
Quote: I wonder DJ will ER have to cough up also?
Personally, I doubt it, as we're essentially a fansite providing an out of game entertainment service that doesn't use anything of CCP's beyond what would be normally considered fair use.. Considering the wording in this devlog is so very woolly and non specific though it's hard to say.
EDIT - anyway, this is all just my personal opinion and shouldn't be taken as a viewpoint of the entirety of eve-radio.. I actually didn't intend to post under my DJ character for that reason but.. well, oops. I didn't realise it'd keep reverting back.
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Aquana Abyss
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:11:00 -
[904]
CCP, just look how upset you've made Chribba...
That alone should set your "stupid sense" tingling...
Daft moves like this and the 'vanity items' shop attempt to sell 'none-vanity items' ie full ships JUST MAKE YOU LOOK LIKE MONEY-GRABBING fools.
This is yet another terrible PR faux pas and each time you hurt your customers loyalty to the game.
Honestly is that what you want? Everyone to stop playing Eve? You're losing your way.
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Deathwing Reborn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:14:00 -
[905]
I am fully against this. I think that it is wrong to try and monitize upon people that are fans of the game and are trying to create usefull tools for players. Honestly I woudln't get an app or something that I had to pay for in or out of eve anyway so.
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Anders Holst
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:15:00 -
[906]
I find the idea that websites that are supported by ads and donations should need a commercial lisence 100% (especially a 99 USD one) utterly preposterous! I understand that you want some unfakeable information about a person running an eve related website that offers ingame services, but some sites offering ingame services cant even pay their electrical bill with ads, how on earth do you want them to pay an additional 99 USD a year?
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Roman Clevik
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:15:00 -
[907]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Roman Clevik If I don't pay you 99$ a year what u will do ? sue me ? ... ROTFL
They could bar your application from accessing the API, for starters. Your EVE API based application might become a little useless without it.
Other than that, yes they could sue you for copyright violation, which in most countries carries rather severe penalties.
I bet u don't even know what copyright is ...
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Exordium8
Minmatar Not a Shell Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:17:00 -
[908]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
This alone should worry CCP. If Chribba stops development on third-party stuff, that will be bad for EVE. Very bad. --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:20:00 -
[909]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Quoted for Truth
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Ivanna Nuke
Gallente Holders Of The Cowbell
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:23:00 -
[910]
Originally by: DJ Xaphod Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 13:11:47 Edited by: DJ Xaphod on 16/06/2011 13:09:35
Quote: I wonder DJ will ER have to cough up also?
Personally, I doubt it, as we're essentially a fansite providing an out of game entertainment service that doesn't use anything of CCP's beyond what would be normally considered fair use.. Considering the wording in this devlog is so very woolly and non specific though it's hard to say.
EDIT - anyway, this is all just my personal opinion and shouldn't be taken as a viewpoint of the entirety of eve-radio.. I actually didn't intend to post under my DJ character for that reason but.. well, oops. I didn't realise it'd keep reverting back.
Understood mate
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Shade Millith
Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:24:00 -
[911]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This cannot be posted enough.
Quote: Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Nice job, "Hey Chib, you know all that great work you put into the community, like EVE-Files, yea, you gotta pay us now to keep them up" ------------------------
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.16 13:25:00 -
[912]
Originally by: Consortium Agent I agree with your CEOs interpretation of this thread. The devblog was 'reasonable' in that it clearly stated nothing is set in stone - these are just ideas.
Just so you know: no, it was not clearly stated that it is set in stone. See that green text at the bottom, where the "not set in stone" comment is? That's a later addition.
Quote: Sadly, everyone actually thinks what was written in the devblog is already a reality and the decisions have already been made.
That's because there was no indication whatsoever that it was not a fait accomplià ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
eXeler0n
Caldari FrEE d00M Fighters Ewoks
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:27:00 -
[913]
Whats with ISK donation? Can i still ask for them?
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WisdomPanda
Gallente Goatriders Horde The Scapegoats
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:27:00 -
[914]
Originally by: Consortium Agent I agree with your CEOs interpretation of this thread. The devblog was 'reasonable' in that it clearly stated nothing is set in stone - these are just ideas. Sadly, everyone actually thinks what was written in the devblog is already a reality and the decisions have already been made. See what *not* listening to your player community buys you? Distrust. Perhaps you should use a bigger font, a different color... bold and/or italics, perhaps, to draw attention to statements like 'Nothing has been set in stone' so folks might pay attention. Might. Until then they're all just whining little carebears with carebear tears that taste so sweet. ;P
They wanted feedback. The feedback has been so overwhelmingly strong because the idea is so overwhelmingly repugnant. We're talking about people who spend their spare time (which isn't much usually) to help fill the holes in the game experience, or to enrich the game experience beyond what CCP may have the time, capacity or vision to provide.
The big backlash however is because of the precedence that CCP Soundwave set of pushing through mentally unstable ideas despite overwhelming opposition. The idea as it stands is "not ideal" to say the least, as was CCP Soundwave's nullsec "adjustments". This one is also not telling the simple truth; if you're making money off CCP, CCP wants a share of the pie. This is their right as a business, but their bizdev guys need to be taken out and flogged for 7 days and 7 nights before every being allowed to suggest anything ever again. Ever.
The actual aim however, creating a good solid legal grounding and helping to support 3rd party developers, is a noble and just cause. Sadly it got tied to the 4th circle of hell along the way. (Or marketing staff/lawyers, they're one in the same.) ----- Cheesecake, Natures ultimate weapon.
|
Kalach'Cha
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:30:00 -
[915]
Like someone above me said, I pay to play, I don't pay to make your game playable. You shouldn't be charging 3rd party programmers 99$ a year for making your dysfunctional game better, if anything, you should be paying them 99$ a year out of our subscription money.
We aren't saying this because we whine or hate you, we are speaking this out because this is really a bad idea and a bad way of handling things, you are basically admitting that the game has a lot of loose ends that you don't care about tying up and making features to handle them (because you are busy with useless stuff like walking in stations that nobody asked for) yet you are willing to charge people who do it for free out of their love for this game. And to top it off you also insult the community and lie to our face saying you do it for their good when we all know it has something more to do with the almighty dollar.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I'm going to put this into my bio.
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Viktor Klimenko
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:31:00 -
[916]
No CCP people chiming in? Where are you hiding?
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Max Fear
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:37:00 -
[917]
We discussed this post in a german fan board.
Its ok to get some money from commercial vendors when they use foreign tools like the eve api to generate money.
But the hobbie programmer which just want to assist the community have to be untouchted in future, too.
I think it shoud be handled like this:
service for free, service for ISK and services which provide adds should use the API for free. Because here you coud see that they work just for fun / cost recovery. (Yes, online marketing on fan pages are not so lucrativ)
Services, offering paid premium services or ask for donation, have to pay the lizenz fee.
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Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:38:00 -
[918]
Originally by: Viktor Klimenko No CCP people chiming in? Where are you hiding?
Believe it or not, they're asnwering on the beta forums, Spitrife replied at least 3 times on the first page of this thread's continuation:
https://testforums.evegate.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11682
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BuRniZZ
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:40:00 -
[919]
Originally by: Max Fear We discussed this post in a german fan board.
Its ok to get some money from commercial vendors when they use foreign tools like the eve api to generate money.
But the hobbie programmer which just want to assist the community have to be untouchted in future, too.
I think it shoud be handled like this:
service for free, service for ISK and services which provide adds should use the API for free. Because here you coud see that they work just for fun / cost recovery. (Yes, online marketing on fan pages are not so lucrativ)
Services, offering paid premium services or ask for donation, have to pay the lizenz fee.
So a site asks for X amount in donations to break even, now they have to ask for X+99.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:51:00 -
[920]
Why a license anyway?
Is maintaining the API so expensive or what? Do you need money to cover the costs for the API?
Well, then demand money for the use of the API! Offer a free limited API access and a premium extended API access. x AUR per month for the premium API to cover your costs.
The whole license project is just plain stupid. It generates only costs, makes everyone unhappy and brings no benefits at all. |
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Gallentecitizen2011
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:52:00 -
[921]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 13:54:00 -
[922]
Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Originally by: Viktor Klimenko No CCP people chiming in? Where are you hiding?
Believe it or not, they're asnwering on the beta forums, Spitrife replied at least 3 times on the first page of this thread's continuation:
https://testforums.evegate.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11682
So CCP have generated a 30 page howling threadnought in about 24 hours on a subject obviously a lot of people feel strongly about...
and...theyre...answering...on...beta...forums....
RAGEEEEEEE
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Angeliq
Minmatar Silent Overwatch S I L E N T.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:04:00 -
[923]
Jesus Fokin Christ! You ppl (CCP) are fokin mrns! I understand that the economical crysis has a bad impact on business BUUUUUUT maybe you dumb arses should spend the money you already get from us (subscription fees) on making EVE-Online a better gaming experience and not on bullshts like redesigning and recoloring (in worse) the UI, redesigning the ship models (who cares?! - it's the same crap), totally useless Incarna, Dust514, World of Darkness, etc. You get enough money from subscriptions, what`s this bullsht with annual fees for 3rd party applications?
I play EVE-Online since 2003, I might just be one of the oldest players still around and I swear on God for the last 3-4 years you ppl just keep coming up with dumber and dumber ideas. I love the game but I HATE you CCP for ruining it. You are acting just like drug dealers, "here, take the API, it's good for you, it will make you feel amazing AAAANNNDDD it's FREE... for now, after you develop an addiction we'll charge your ass for it".
I don't get it, why do you need to charge for something that don't cost you anything? Oh, I know why! Cos your are not thinking GAMING anymore, you are just thinking business! I hope all you ppl go banckrupt!
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Devil tiger
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:15:00 -
[924]
Edited by: Devil tiger on 16/06/2011 14:18:53 Edited by: Devil tiger on 16/06/2011 14:18:06 Edited by: Devil tiger on 16/06/2011 14:16:32
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
I couldn't agree more and as my support for the fan-devs here's a nice theme music for this thread courtesy of Sepultura
refuse/resist
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JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:19:00 -
[925]
If this has already been mentioned then I am sorry.. But I don't want to go through 30 pages to look for it.
FYI if you try to go to the link (for the dev-blog) from the login front-end of the game client, it takes you to a "This blog entry does not exist" error page.
See it fine just following the link off here though.
|
Morgan Polaris
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:20:00 -
[926]
'EVE Forever' just got added a less than infinite lifespan. I hope for your jobs sake (although I heard working for CCP isn't all that what's cracked up to be) Incarna does actually manages to attract new audiences.
I haven't seen the Micro$oft for a while now, guess it's time for the new one; ÇÇP
|
Krythas
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:20:00 -
[927]
And just to add my $0.05
If you could clarify what actually is required or get a free license would be helpful. At the moment it looks like if you want to do _any_ meta gaming you'll have to pay and its not clear how much.
If you could tie things down like, wtf is a donation ? if I randomly give ISK to an alliance director to asssist in a ship replacement program (donation to an entity with in game currency) and the alliance has a forum that uses the eve images, suddenly does the corp owe $99/year ?
seriously CCP. of all the stupid things you've done this is pretty much top of the list.
I dare say this is not what you envisaged with the announcement but the way its worded doesnt leave much movement.
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Cailais
Amarr Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:23:00 -
[928]
Edited by: Cailais on 16/06/2011 14:24:22 Dear CCP,
Your BizDev department are morons. If you wanted to screw Chribba et al out of $$$$$ it would have been more cost effective to have invited him over to Iceland, kicked him in the nuts and robbed his wallet.
You've turned the best MMO into a money grubbing cash machine. Well you can stick your snouts in the trough if you want but it won't be my $ you're getting.
Have fun watching your subscriber numbers fall through the floor.
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
|
JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:31:00 -
[929]
Um... MERCS?
|
Ga'len
Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:34:00 -
[930]
CCP,
Next time, why don't you start a dev blog like this with the following lanugage at the very beginning:
THIS IS NOT CURRENT POLICY, THIS IS A DRAFT! PLESSE COMMENT AS WE WISH TO COLLABORATIVELY DEVELOP THIS POLICY.
That statement alone would have resulted in 25 less pages on this thread and would have gotten you more useful and less painful comments.
|
|
Soden Rah
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:37:00 -
[931]
You upset Chribba... nuff said... -------------------------------------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Lederstrumpf
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:37:00 -
[932]
== snip == The current (AKA original) EVE forums will remain on eveonline.com in an archived state for read-only reference. There will be a grace period between the opening the new forums and freezing the old ones, giving you advance notice for when the migration will happen. Exact dates are TBA; we will keep you posted on the exact time of when the old forums will close. == snip ==
So they are going to close the old forums. Round two of enforcing the new forum crap upon paying customers.
I'm going to delete my older forum posts here again right now -- as long as I can.
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=920&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=update&utm_content=devblog&utm_campaign=eveonline
|
Selthae
Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:37:00 -
[933]
Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Originally by: Viktor Klimenko No CCP people chiming in? Where are you hiding?
Believe it or not, they're asnwering on the beta forums, Spitrife replied at least 3 times on the first page of this thread's continuation:
https://testforums.evegate.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=11682
Lol. Cheapshot: Cannot Communicate Properly
|
Shonion
FREE GATES HUN Reloaded
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:38:00 -
[934]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Would you fire every 'tards who guessed this idea? Thank you. [url=http://freegates.podzone.net/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=39036] [/url] |
Shandir
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:38:00 -
[935]
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Here are our demands: ISK costs - no charge Volunatary donations - no charge Advertising - no charge Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.
If you really need to identify people who are adding value to your game for free, then charge a fee sufficiently low to be trivial. ($1/yr, or <$10 one off) to those people. I also doubt that this payment will really identify anyone who doesn't want to be identified.
At the end of your decision, we should be allowed to do everything we currently can do for the same price we are currently doing it. Plus more with limitations as necessary. We do not appreciate you removing features from our game, or our community. -
|
Lothros Andastar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:39:00 -
[936]
Originally by: Ga'len CCP,
Next time, why don't you start a dev blog like this with the following lanugage at the very beginning:
THIS IS NOT CURRENT POLICY, THIS IS A DRAFT! PLESSE COMMENT AS WE WISH TO COLLABORATIVELY DEVELOP THIS POLICY.
That statement alone would have resulted in 25 less pages on this thread and would have gotten you more useful and less painful comments.
No, it would have been the same, because this is 25+ pages of people telling CCP this Policy is utter **** no matter what form it takes.
Ps: Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:43:00 -
[937]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Vurshachka
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:51:00 -
[938]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Terrorina
-Mostly Harmless-
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:58:00 -
[939]
Wow CCP.. really?
At least take the playerbase out to to dinner first, we like to be wined and dined before we get ****ed.
|
Barakkus
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:59:00 -
[940]
At least they didn't do what Blizzard did and tell people they can't charge or take donations for anything related to WoW anymore. You should have seen the outrage on the WoW forums when they announced that. - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring |
|
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 14:59:00 -
[941]
Originally by: Shandir
Here are our demands: ISK costs - no charge Volunatary donations - no charge Advertising - no charge Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.
I pretty much said the same thing a few pages back -- if you are going to charge developers real money at least let them charge real money for their services. Voluntary donations and advertising should be excluded from the pay licence. Further, the pay licence should grant the developer something back from CCP (i.e. documentation, support, SLAs, etc).
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Andrea Exerlauka
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:01:00 -
[942]
Are you out of your mind, CCP?
You really need to fire the morons who are coming up with all these great "marketable" ideas before they run your game to the ground.
|
|
CCP Zulu
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:03:00 -
[943]
Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
|
|
Nooto
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:08:00 -
[944]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
glad that you got the point BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Triple Entendre
Atrocity.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:10:00 -
[945]
Originally by: Shandir
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Here are our demands: ISK costs - no charge Volunatary donations - no charge Advertising - no charge Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.
If you really need to identify people who are adding value to your game for free, then charge a fee sufficiently low to be trivial. ($1/yr, or <$10 one off) to those people. I also doubt that this payment will really identify anyone who doesn't want to be identified.
At the end of your decision, we should be allowed to do everything we currently can do for the same price we are currently doing it. Plus more with limitations as necessary. We do not appreciate you removing features from our game, or our community.
At risk of being cynical, that sounds far too reasonable to be considered.
|
J Kunjeh
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:12:00 -
[946]
Thanks CCP Zulu for the clear communication. Looking forward to seeing the revisions. ~Gnosis~ |
SystemAdministrator
Amarr Invision Hosting
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:12:00 -
[947]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
And sanity wins again (for now). Only took 32 pages of us saying this was a bad idea. Zulu thanks for listening. You may wanna run this sort of stuff past the CSM in the future before int ends up in a devblog
|
Davvol
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:15:00 -
[948]
Originally by: CCP Zulu So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
Hang on, this looks suspiciously like common sense! I can only assume someone has managed to hack Zulu's account, as this is clearly a deviation from the behavior we are expecting :D
|
Talaan Stardrifter
THE PAROXYSM
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:20:00 -
[949]
Originally by: CCP Zulu ... voice of reason ...
I'm happy to see a revised proposal that takes the feedback given into account.
Personally, I'm pro-licensing, I just don't like the current all-or-nothing approach. I envisage the API shifting to a system similar to Open-Auth, where the developer authents themselves in addition to the client key and vcode.
We do also need clarification on acceptable real money transactions.
|
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:21:00 -
[950]
Originally by: CCP Zulu I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
CCP Zulu = best Zulu <3 |
|
realdognose
Caldari Biotronics Inc. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:25:00 -
[951]
I'm the developer of the Windows Phone Application "EVEolution".
Now i read, that "selling services for ISK" possible will require the commercial license.
Well, i'm selling the app for 150M, because Microsoft already charges me for a "Marketplace Account" with $99. (The app was intended to be free, but because of that charge, i decided to take ISK, to lower the costs, by buying some PLEX).
Now CCP charges me with another $99 ?
So, i now should pay $198 / year for a app that was planned to be freeware?
Well, if this will happpen, i'll unfortunately will stop the project (and others as well).
Hope, that you really will exclude ISK payments and donations from that rule.
best regards, realdognose
|
Consortium Agent
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:37:00 -
[952]
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Oh thank heavens the carebear tears can subside now and we can all focus on the one and only critical point to the entire devblog - commercial access to EVE PI.
Oh, wait... in two weeks?!? I predict this thread will have grown to three times its size before then Zulu. Might want to spare a few cycles of someone's time to this so it can be managed. Just a thought.
|
Pneumon Blaster
Quondam Souls of the Universe corporation THE R0NIN
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:38:00 -
[953]
Originally by: Arrs Grazznic
Originally by: Shandir
Here are our demands: ISK costs - no charge Volunatary donations - no charge Advertising - no charge Sold product - reasonable fee - would recommend this be more like a royalty than a single fee as "one size" does not "fit all" here. But here you can charge.
I pretty much said the same thing a few pages back -- if you are going to charge developers real money at least let them charge real money for their services. Voluntary donations and advertising should be excluded from the pay licence. Further, the pay licence should grant the developer something back from CCP (i.e. documentation, support, SLAs, etc).
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
We are already Paying for the privilege of doing CCPÆs job - if people are joining mass testing - that's ONE BIG LOL for me. Never seen company using their customers as testers who paids for testing. LOL
|
Mitchello
B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:40:00 -
[954]
Edited by: Mitchello on 16/06/2011 15:41:36
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Thank you, for not just taking the time, but also the message itself. Much appreciated.
I do think however that it is less a case of misunderstanding (an sich) than it is a case of communication - regardless of internal or external parts of that. If the devblog had been meant as a way to get feedback, that really should have been made clear in its format and message. It would have prevented a substantial loss of belief / trust.
It is perhaps an idea to put together a questionairre in the relevant forum section where third party developers hang out here on EVE Forums, or get CSM to do that for CCP, and perhaps run this as part of a next user survey.
Cheers!
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
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Euphonus
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:41:00 -
[955]
Do it CCP. I dare you.
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darmwand
wiremaniacs
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Posted - 2011.06.16 15:42:00 -
[956]
Since our "feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to" you, this:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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woddel
Gallente Canis Industries Ltd Avaricious Cartel
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:42:00 -
[957]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
hello again
which part of
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license? Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
leaves room for misunderstanding? i can also not find any confusing wording in these sentences... --- creator and maintainer of eve commander - complete web based character information tool and ec agent finder |
Arakkis Melanogaster
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:44:00 -
[958]
Do you guys understand that these freelance developers are making third party programs that make your terrible game playable, and are giving them out free of charge? You are literally charging your customers to develop features that should have already been included in game. In fact, you should be paying the people that make your content for you. Make checks payable to 'Solo Drakban'. |
Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises Babylon Project
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:46:00 -
[959]
Thanks CCP/Zulu
The thing is though, you dropped another seed/dumped another bucket of foamy frothy soap on the already slippery slope (yes, we've been using this one a lot)..
Good intentions, the road to hell and all, there is absolutely no sane, or even remotely valid reason this blog should have been posted without first running it past CSM or some actual 3pd's. Add to that the, let's call it enthusiastic, wording of the blog itself and instant threadnought out of nowhere (as if summoned by the great and powerful Aurum).
You guys aren't new at this, but lately (most importantly this year) you seem to be acting like a bunch of high school kids, incredibly arrogant, constantly saying the wrong things, not fact checking anything. And all so hastily.. it's insane, you have a community of people here that have frankly put up with a lot, some of us from the start and somehow some of you feel everything needs to be done now.
I'm no expert, obviously I can see the legal and financial merit in this, but there's being right and there's being a thorax about it.
About the not being an expert thing: why ask us common folk about anything, before asking people that might actually have something good to say first? I am not a 3rd party dev for eve, 95% of the people '+1'-ing this thread don't really have a clue on how to improve this. But, there is the 3rd party devs themselves, it's not like they are hard to get a hold of, and, they kind of all feel this is a bad 'first draft'. And then there is the CSM, sure they might not actually know themselves, but they will actually (I hope) contact people who do.
This is the second threadnought I just had to post in this week, wtf CCP? And just now I see the 'new new forums up for testing' again, oh boy, I'm oiling my keyboard in advance. You don't have time to think about this, something that's ****ing off not just a large section of your community (of paying customers) but a very important part of your community at that (those people that keep us happy when you don't), but you have time for .. really?
It's been said before (and in this thread) and I'll say it again: Take a step back, plan some meetings and discuss just what you see happening here. Slap some people around for being such utter PR nightmares to the community as a whole and make a plan and have people with a clue look at that plan before you show us the plan.
Honestly you guys seem to be intent on having us just give up.
Ignore me
Drone Guide EON 21 & 22 |
I'thari
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:48:00 -
[960]
Originally by: woddel which part of
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license? Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
leaves room for misunderstanding? i can also not find any confusing wording in these sentences...
And that's exactly why it will be re-worded so they won't get ****storm next time they try it |
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Clambumper June
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Posted - 2011.06.16 15:48:00 -
[961]
I did read the full 32 pages, but in a word this is completely F'd. Let me see, RL people pay a subscription fee to play EVE. They love the game so much they create apps to make the game both more fun internally and externally. Further locking your subscribers to their addiction. Now you want to charge people the equivalent of almost 7 months of subscription fees so they can publish their apps.
I realize Iceland economy sucks and you are the biggest thing since Leif Erikson put foot on that island, but give me and the rest a break. There has to be a reason you are starting after 8 years to charge for 3rd Party Developments. Either you have become as greedy as WOW or perhaps you are reduce your player base with people reducing accounts and/or rage quitting due to insult.
I honestly think it is the first of the two options above. CCP has determined that they can now make profit off of other peoples work. Bad idea, not good for business. GL
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Swren1
Muppet Ninja's Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:50:00 -
[962]
Edited by: Swren1 on 16/06/2011 15:50:28
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Hey maybe you can do the same for Incarna and have a patch thats related to internet spaceships???
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Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 15:50:00 -
[963]
Originally by: Terrorina Wow CCP.. really?
At least take the playerbase out to to dinner first, we like to be wined and dined before we get ****ed.
thats going in my bio
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Overlord PinKy
Gallente Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita
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Posted - 2011.06.16 15:51:00 -
[964]
CCP wants to make money every single way they can off of this. The 4.5 million pr mo they make off subscriptions isn't enough.
Seriously CCP, if you want to make more money - do more work yourselves and charge for it. That's how honest people do it, I have 2 jobs as an example.
You can hire people to build apps for iPad, smart phones etc that augment your game where it's lacking. If you do that you can charge for it.
But don't think for a second that your ENTIRE player base won't turn on you and make you the fool in the public media world wide by charging your customers to do work for you that they already do for free...
Again, maybe you should be concentrating on something like oh say killing botting accounts???
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Blacken Dekar
Gallente Dark Sun Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.16 16:00:00 -
[965]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
This isn't the players problem, its CCP's. You guys chose the time to drop a ball of crap on the paying customers. Thanks to the idea of having to pay for EFT, EveMon, BattleClinic and killboards, I'm down two real life friends from Eve and you are down 9 accounts. I believe if they were paying month to month this puts CCP down $134.55 US a month in income.
Congrats.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:03:00 -
[966]
Originally by: Arakkis Melanogaster Do you guys understand that these freelance developers are making third party programs that make your terrible game playable
Why do you continue to play it if it's terrible and unplayable without third-party applications? ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.16 16:04:00 -
[967]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
There was no misunderstandment.
You tried to get the low hanging fruit by throwing a pomato on a wall to see where the spurts would land. Done several times so it's not new.
If all were fine, you'd proceed with the new scheme at once, else you post some corporate "sorry we will iterate", which is what is happening.
The worrysome part is that you even published that (posthumous) label "draft", ie someone in CCP really believed in that stuff.
I am sorry but the iterations have to happen in your CCP ranks too, not just on the blog.
It HURTS US SUPPORTERS to see CCP go down like this, didn't you know? It's heart shattering to see these last months seeing you embarking in EA / Sony loan shark mode.
You are meant to be different. And better. Don't betray us.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Yeep
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:11:00 -
[968]
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
Originally by: Arakkis Melanogaster Do you guys understand that these freelance developers are making third party programs that make your terrible game playable
Why do you continue to play it if it's terrible and unplayable without third-party applications?
Why do you continue to post when its so tedious to type with the on screen keyboard?
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Busca Torr
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:18:00 -
[969]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
You are meant to be different. And better. Don't betray us.
Well It looks like the thing is stoped for now, but i hade to say amen to Vaerah Vahrokha! |
Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:27:00 -
[970]
Dear CCP Zulu, there is really only ONE thing thats really outraging people in this thread.
Charging people for receiving any form of recompense for costs incurred. Be that isk or real life donations (not charges, DONATIONS) or a pitiful ad stream revenue that doesent even cover hosting costs never mind garner a profit.
The developer of capsuleer and indeed any other CHARGE TO USE 3rd party app is perceived by almost everyone posting here to be quite rightly liable to charges from yourself. Theyre using your IP to make themselves PROFIT. Not cover costs, they hope to profit. And good luck to them.
The dedicated souls motivated not by profit but a genuine love of the game, pouring their own money and time into something they love, they are the ones were all standing up to defend. The ones who dont demand a fee for their app, but are pleasantly surprised to log in and find someone liked their work enough to fling a couple of dollars or a couple of million isk their way. Which encourages them to do more to enhance y/our game, everyone wins.
Noone can possibly object to you wanting to firmly establish control over your IP, but why wasnt this stated as an intention in the original Dev Blog?
D'ya think people might have reacted better if they knew what your REAL aim was?
If you require real world personal verificication, a 1$ Transaction on your website with a credit card should be sufficient surely? Works for paypal.
One final point in the defence of the people working hard, at a loss, to improve y/our game. One even the BizDev *retch* team might understand.
How many people would have quit eve fairly early on if their capsuleer career hadnt been aided by evemon, or evehq, or eft. Never mind the more esoteric apps like mentat. How many? 1000? 10000?
Lets say ten. for an extra year. 1800 euro's you wouldnt have had if free apps hadnt kept them in the game. Pffft, you say, nickels and dimes, we earn MILLIONS!!!!
Then stop trying to nickel and dime good souls working for the community at large and trying to ignore the red line on their personal balance sheet. The value of their work cant be measured by "BizDev".
|
|
Orakkus
Minmatar m3 Corp Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:29:00 -
[971]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Not so fast there Mr. Zulu. I've seen this little dance before. While I honestly hope that this is a harbinger of truly re-thinking this issue, the last time you pulled something like this was with the Anomaly changes. It went a lot like how this is playing out in that CCP starts out with a really bad idea. Then the players get rightly enraged because it's a major and poorly thought out change. Then you come along say, "Oh, wait a minute, don't worry your sweet heads about it. We'll review this because clearly the community thinks this a bad idea." The players calm down thinking that cooler and wiser heads have prevailed. Then a week later, the change goes through anyways.
Let's take a hard look at what these free apps have done for CCP: "Eve-Search" - Chribba's search engine for the CCP forums because CCP's original search engine.. was just horrible. Eve-Search made it possible to keep the community aware of growing patterns in the game. Changes to the Amarr and Minmatar ship line ups, Falcons, ECM, etc. All can be traced back to the fact that you could find those issues with Eve search.
"Eve-Kill.net" and "Battleclinic.com" - Without these two sites, killmails would not have been recorded. Without killmails, there would be no way to gauge how well one corp/alliance/coalition was doing against another. Without the ego that comes with your number of kills or with bad fits, the complexities of combat would be only thought of as a frustration and poor game design. Less combat = Less people losing ships = less modules selling = less manufacturing being done = less people finding the game fun = Less people paying to play Eve Online. It is fair to say that without these two sites, there would be no Eve Online and everyone working at CCP would be doing some less.. fun.
"Dotlan" and "Ombrey" - CCP's galatic wiremap is confusing and difficult to navigate. Dotlans and Ombrey's Brilliant map designs made it useful, effective, and easier to think about where you needed to go, either for trade, for combat, or for exploring. Again, this free app, was vital in making Eve Online successful. And your Biz Dev didn't write it.
"Evemon" - Another Free app that helped people organize their skills and plan out what they needed, as well as many other features. Maybe not vital, but certainly made Eve much easier to understand and play.
"Eve Fitting Tool" - This tool may not be vital.. but it definately improved the game's playability.
I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet. |
Dawn Ramsey
Lets Get Rocked Important Internet Spaceship League
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:32:00 -
[972]
I have read all the CCP related posts in this thread and to say the least, I'm very disappointed in this most recent blog.
To announce something like this, and it not be a troll of some kind leaves me almost speechless.
CCP ....you are destroying a community that SUPPORTS your game..and enriches your game, with THEIR time ...and now you want to charge them for it, all while NOT offering them official support of any kind??
This is outrageous, and I agree with others in this thread..I thought CCP was above this kind of money grabbing action.
I strongly urge CCP to reconsider this idea and scrap it. It's a terrible idea and will have negative effects in the long term on EVEs community and the 3rd party programs that help to make it so great.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:36:00 -
[973]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
TL;DR Yes we fcked up, again, and will try to come up with something that doesn't cost us even more long term customers and make the press laugh at us even more than they already do. C/D?
|
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:36:00 -
[974]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Dear Zulu:
I think the feedback you are experiencing has two main reasons, both very valid:
1. Although your Legal department is not really expected to know the game, your Biz one should have a passing familiarity with it, and Atlas should be.. really familiar with it.
This familiarity is not obvious in the posted draft. There "miscommunications" make you look, utterly incompetent and cost you massive amounts of good will.
Wasn't there for instance another one just a few days ago with the Ishukone Scorpion? I don't know whether the problem is the people that work there, or your preferred mode of backpedaling but it seems that not only nobody plays Eve in your company anymore, they also don't even bother to think things through and lack basic common sense.
Whether you say that it was but an interesting case of broken telephone or not, the prospect of you monetizing the game even more, is infuriating. Which brings us to number 2.
2. If you solely want to control your IP then there is no need to open the door of third party app monetization. Look at your feedback:
The prospect of paying actual money for apps that are basically required to play the game, is not a popular one. The ability to charge for apps is not one that most developers are asking for, in fact, its one that is making them shut down their applications, as can be seen.
Finally its not an ability that even makes sense: The userbase is tiny for a serious outfit to consider making apps for it, said userbase is aggresively against the idea of paying for apps that basically fill voids in the game's design, and this is a userbase that you are simultaneously trying to monetize even more with vanity items, and even ships, for Aurum.
The only thing you will get from such a policy is further fragmentation of the playerbase in a game that is already remarkably hard to get into. Not only will new people have to learn to love all the quirks of Eve what with their vanity items being bullseyes, but they will need to spend 10/20 dollars more for the apps to even be able to plan their skills (something that should be in game), tally their kills, fit their ships, fly around the galaxy, share their player skills with others, etcetera.
Is that a path you want to take? it is one that seldom leads to growth, but one that leads to destruction. I can say that when I have to pay even more IRL cash to be able to fill the gaps in your design, is when I will be gone, so will most others.
Shame, it was a charming game, too.
Go make a new disaster, that's what I'm counting on. You're someone else's problem, now I only want you gone...
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1516147 mcv |
LtCol Laurentius
Caldari Zor Industries Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:40:00 -
[975]
Originally by: CCP Zulu
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
Zulu, the chances that the issues raised in this thread are a result of "confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document" is excatly ZERO and you know it. First of all, the so-called "DRAFT" wasnt a draft until you got the feedback in this tread. Second, there is very little room for misunderstanding in the FAQ part of the devblog.
Luckily, some of you seem to still have some sense left. Its good that you take a step back an re-evaulate. Take the opprotunity to fire the marketing departement while your at it.
|
Lederstrumpf
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:41:00 -
[976]
Originally by: CCP Zulu weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks
== quoting from the link above == weæve talked about Incarna and what we want it to be. Internally we've argued == snip ==
"We, We, We"
I doubt you'll ever get it.
|
Madcapnl
The Rising Stars -Mostly Harmless-
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:42:00 -
[977]
Edited by: Madcapnl on 16/06/2011 16:43:39 Edited by: Madcapnl on 16/06/2011 16:42:37
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Welcome more lies and spin. Let's not admit we made a mistake, but let's accuse the customers of being stupid and not understanding the words clever CCP employees use in their devblogs, because you know it's all misunderstood by those dumbass customers. And in no way we are trying to make money of you, we just want you to send us $99 because we want to have control and we want to have some regulation (god forbid giving Cant Communicate Properly control over all those wonderful tools out there, they will **** them up in no time). Yeah and we will do a step back till you customers wind down and then we are going to implement it anyway when you are not looking. Like we did with all changes lately.
Sorry, I for one don't believe you anymore. Somehow there's some weird stuff going on @ CCP that is pushing it further and further away from their customers. When was the last time a new feature in Eve was succesfull?
Look here (the interwebs never forgets: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/04/02/ccps-torfi-frans-olafsson-on-the-future-of-eve/
This is the same dude delivering Incarna right now interviewed in 2008. It might be me, but isn't Incarna very crappy compared to what he envisioned 3 years ago. Three years to go from that idea to Incarna, is just sad. It makes me wonder whether CCP really wants to go forward with Eve at all.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Stimulus Rote Kapelle
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:42:00 -
[978]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Terrible. Why does it take a threadnaught every time before you listen to us? We don't want this ****.
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Jalal II
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:43:00 -
[979]
Originally by: Overlord PinKy CCP wants to make money every single way they can off of this. The 4.5 million pr mo they make off subscriptions isn't enough.
Seriously CCP, if you want to make more money - do more work yourselves and charge for it. That's how honest people do it, I have 2 jobs as an example.
You can hire people to build apps for iPad, smart phones etc that augment your game where it's lacking. If you do that you can charge for it.
But don't think for a second that your ENTIRE player base won't turn on you and make you the fool in the public media world wide by charging your customers to do work for you that they already do for free...
Again, maybe you should be concentrating on something like oh say killing botting accounts???
While I agree this is your IP. That said, all these 3rd party apps are where you had holes in your game. Do you really want to start over? I mean you scare off/**** off Chribba, Dotlan.net, EveMon, Battleclinic, EFT, Aura, etc, etc, ....Ad nauseam they found where your game is lacking and provided important features that benefited you and the players. Now your just taking a ***t on them. If they leave which I would not blame them where is your game then??? Are You going to provide 1st party apps for my phone, regional maps, training plans, remap optimization. Your game is so complex it needs these extra things. Using your stuff is more like we'll lets try to fit this our oh ***T I can't do this reaction all on one Large POS.
Take your head out and fix the holes in your game before you Ctrl-A Shift-Del your 3rd party apps and developers. Because that is where your heading.
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Eclorc
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:44:00 -
[980]
Originally by: woddel
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
hello again
which part of
Quote:
Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license? Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license? Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
leaves room for misunderstanding? i can also not find any confusing wording in these sentences...
.. so vague pronouncements, some smoke and mirrors hoping to hide the clearly stated intent of that blog, and "we'll look at this again" as a response huh?
No assurances, then, that you are not indeed gonna screw folks over who enhance your product's value for us all willingly and from their own time and purse, and just accept help with expenses (at least partly) through donations?
You're right Captain Zulu, this DID sound corporate-y, sickeningly so.
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Dierdra Vaal
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.16 16:44:00 -
[981]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Thanks Zulu :)
I hope when you guys go over the next draft that you will engage with the CSM as well as with key 3rd party API devs (wollari, chribba, etc). That way you can avoid another threadnaught :)
Veto #205 * * * Director Emeritus at EVE University * * * CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman
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philip3000
Evoke. Ev0ke
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:44:00 -
[982]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 16:44:00 -
[983]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
I hope you learned something from this.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.16 16:51:00 -
[984]
Cripes Zulu. May I kindly suggest you guys have a couple lawyers + high level staff on standby to answer questions immediately? If you guys had been on the bounce with regards to feedback we might have had 5-10 pages instead of "30 pages of hate" and countless troll/not troll threads all over the forums.
Good luck! -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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OmgNoFreeNames
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:01:00 -
[985]
So, here is http://reboot.gr Selling bots for EVE. What can you do about it? I guess nothing. What will you be able to do with your new hallucinations you had described? Same nothing? So what is the point to post this "unfinished" blog? No point?
Looking at the calendar shows a date far from april 1st.
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SoulBlythe
Knights of Redwall Men with Fancy Hats
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:07:00 -
[986]
So that was a long 33 pages to read and I just have to say this...
If the country that is home to your corporate HQ is using the internet and it's population to build a new constitution, why are you not following the same idea as them? Do you do know that your current subscriber total and the population of Iceland is roughly the same yea? So why not follow in the ground-breaking precedent Iceland is setting and do the same for the Eve Online franchise and CCP Games as a whole?
======================
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Enik3
Crimson Empire. Nulli Secunda
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:09:00 -
[987]
Yeah this is "great news for 3rd party developers" you f**king morons
Between this and the microtransaction BS, you're really pushing people. There's too many games and other competing forms of entertainment CCP--don't assume we're all like Apple fanbois and will keep opening our wallets to buy what you're selling.
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Bubba Phet
Caldari S0utherN Comfort Imperial 0rder
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:11:00 -
[988]
Is ccp actively trying to kills this game? How long before certain alliances make it a requirement to have access to certain 3rd party applications? I currently have two active subscriptions in eve and that is already more per month than I really plan to spend on a game. And I promise you right now i'm not dishing out anymore money to aftermarket programs that enhance gameplay or fill in the gaps ccp leaves. Counting all the a**holes in the room I am definitely not alone |
Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:12:00 -
[989]
The more I read this thread the less motivated I am to defend CCP, however, here is what I think is going on (I don't know - it's just an educated guess):
1. CCP wants to have a legal premise upon which to take down commercial RMT websites which are currently operating. If access to EVE IP requires a commercial license and none of those RMT operations are granted a license to operate, CCP then has legal grounds to sue not only for the immediate termination of all operations, but for compensation. At this point they can only hope the ISPs will do them the favor of closing them down.
2. CCP wants to cover all bases with this policy such that RMT cannot go from RMT to a legal workaround (such as donation or 'advertiser' supported models).
3. CCP is slightly r3t@rd3d and didn't really give much consideration to the question 'Will ISK based websites be required to have a commercial license?' except to throw a very broad blanket over a more narrow concern. RMT is about RMT CCP, not about charging ISK to use a service which provides services you do not offer.
4. Commercial license agreements for 3p developers would be beneficial to honest 3p developers. I imagine some expedited level of support, full documentation of and enhancements to the API would be part of any final commercial license agreement the community would agree to. It would also be beneficial to CCP because, like Apple, they can pick and choose which commercial applications they want to support or endorse, and which ones they don't.
5. Free license agreements to non-commercial sites also gives CCP a modicum of control over which sites get access to use their intellectual property and would likely involve no support but the same full documentation of and enhancements to the API being driven by the commercial license holders. This also helps CCP protect their player base by denying access to those websites that are not on the up and up (or who are discovered not to be on the up and up - like some of the nefarious 'raffle' sites that turned out to be total BS thieves griefing ppl out of their ISK). Community reputation helps, but not all Eve players are aware of or participate in the community, either.
6. CCP isn't out to make money on 3rd party developers. If they were, they could most certainly get away with charging a lot more than $99/yr and still have large commercial vendors pay it to get a stab at some cash from Eve players. 'But there are no large commercial vendors who care about Eve' you say? They will if they can buy a commercial license. Especially if they only have to pay $99 for it. Again, this is where CCP's real purpose comes into play, however. Ultimately the decision will be CCP's who they license and who they don't. So they can prevent the competition from getting a license and making RL money on us, for example.
7. If you are a 3rd party developer who intends to make real life money from the intellectual property of Eve Online (or indeed any of CCPs future games, I'm sure) then you need to pay real life license fees and be subjected to the same quality controls as other API vendors customers.
8. If you are Chribba or any of those of us like Chribba who develop for, and get laughable revenue from, the IP of Eve Online, CCP isn't likely to include you on the no fly list. In other words - I'm pretty sure that most of the currently developed Eve Online sister applications that exist from 3rd party developers would be 'grandfathered' in the end anyway. They're not going to charge Chribba. Seriously, if they did - I quit. No lie. I would absolutely quit Eve forever and plaster my reason on every single tool and web page I run for Eve Online.
I think that is the most accurate assumption based solely on conjecture that I can muster up in CCPs defense. I could be horribly, horribly wrong - they've let me down before - but I have a good feeling about how this is all going to turn out in the end. /me crosses fingers, toes, eyes and balls... OWW!
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:12:00 -
[990]
Originally by: SystemAdministrator
Originally by: CCP Zulu Sanity and Reason.
And sanity wins again (for now). Only took 32 pages of us saying this was a bad idea. Zulu thanks for listening. You may wanna run this sort of stuff past the CSM in the future before int ends up in a devblog
If CCP doesn't use yammer you guys should really get it like yesterday it could help the seemingly horrible communication that exists at your hollowed out fish factory.
https://www.yammer.com/
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:13:00 -
[991]
Um, am I just being stupid or does CCP want to charge a royalty* to developers to make things like EVEHQ, EFT, EVEMon, etc?
Cause I have to say that would be really stupid.
*license is just a fancy way of saying "royalty"
-- Now if they mean Developers can now charge money for us to use their product...um...that's still stupid *points to Blizzard's stance*
In closing, it's sad when you see Bob Kotick as a better person than <insert other entity>. ---------------- "Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius |
Mitchello
B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:14:00 -
[992]
Originally by: Dierdra Vaal
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Thanks Zulu :)
I hope when you guys go over the next draft that you will engage with the CSM as well as with key 3rd party API devs (wollari, chribba, etc). That way you can avoid another threadnaught :)
If only this csm's chairman made some effort other than being cosy with staff brosefs while throwing comments around everywhere like "I don't give a **** about RMT", "I don't give a **** about MT" and so forth.
Maybe thats just posturing. If it is, it is to say the least counterproductive. Then again, we haven't seen much of anything of this term sofar, other than tales of bacon and drinking in Reykjavik (with the exceptions of Seleene, Two Step and most notably Trebor). But, got to be honest here, nobody has any insight anymore in to what was a - by CCP presented - virtual democratic experiment turned stakeholder (and now back to no power feedback group out of choice). There are no more weekly meeting minutes, which thusfar always served to provide the communities of EVE with a measure of validation of whether a CSM is representative and engaged in their interests.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:15:00 -
[993]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
I hope you learned something from this.
That's what I like about you, Malcanis. You're an optimist in the face of certain defeat.
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Strrog
Caldari Zero Excavations
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:16:00 -
[994]
Edited by: Strrog on 16/06/2011 17:20:03 Well finally after rather brutal session of criticism top Lead Dev recognized the issue.
However I do want to remind the dev team that the tranquillity server population has not really breached 40-50 k since I started playing 3-4 years ago, which suggest that the game is not growing in subs- its a clear stalemate.
There were a lot of issues with tools and applications demand for different projects, the innovations came from players ONLY. Charging those players any form of fee to improve EVE On-line game-play borderlines treason. An excuse of a security issues with API....when hackers flood your MAC tables, or RMTers botting in hulks perhaps is a far greater issue, plus the API keys produce no threat to the server, as it would simply not have been released for users in the first place.
So what is the problem here? Its getting obvious that business plan is getting altered to harvest more money from current subscription base. This may have severe consequences.
There should be a proper review of the situation and one of the issues such as the lack of new subs should be one of the top priorities.
Also forgot to mention the rather absurd 514 release, its like shooting yourself in the foot few times in a row and not noticing!!!.
PS. There was no miscommunication at this point I believe, it seems someone is testing the player base with new (stupid) ideas.
thank you
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Rhivre
Caldari TarNec
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:20:00 -
[995]
It seems like an initial haphazard solution to their promised "within 1 year monetization for 3rd party developers" after the capsuleer debacle last year.
On the other hand, it also seems they are going the blizz route and just incorporating the 3rd party features into game eventually, such as the new agent finder thingy in CQ.
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Castia
Caldari Invicta. Rooks and Kings
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:21:00 -
[996]
Maybe if they sold some improved version of the API with documentation...
It's still a bad idea tho.
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Koramok
Amarr Cold Carbon Institute
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:21:00 -
[997]
Subscription fee, item shop, nickel and diming, hmmmm so Bill Roper works at CCP now?
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:23:00 -
[998]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Please also read ...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528666
and
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528874
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Consortium Agent
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:28:00 -
[999]
Ran out of room. :P
On a final note, one additional variable would be key in the commercial and free license agreement(s) - CCP cannot steal our intellectual property or ideas and implement them into the game without compensation to the originating authors of those ideas. There needs to be equal protection for our intellectual property as well.
This would apply to me (bot report tool) but frankly I don't care about me so much as all the guys who took the time to write some awesome agent finders only to have an agent finder tool suddenly show up on SiSi! So, CCP is not opposed to taking our ideas and implementing them in the game as evidenced by the forthcoming bot report tool and the new agent finder tool - so I think that that licensing should include a clause to protect our intellectual rights as much as it protects CCP's.
That is all. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program ;)
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1Of9
Gallente The Circle SOLAR WING
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:31:00 -
[1000]
Originally by: Mal Plox
Capsuleer, please come back!
this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this
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darmwand
wiremaniacs
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:31:00 -
[1001]
kilothread!
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:31:00 -
[1002]
P.S. Misunderstanding and confusion my arse. Zulu, you're so bad, you didn't even read you own dev's FAQ post.
But whatever, dude. It's only your customers to lose because it's not exactly like you have a reputation to uphold anymore.
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:34:00 -
[1003]
A "free non-commercial license" What the hell are you talking about?
I already pay > $100 a year in order to be able to offer a free tool to the community for your game. That fee is called "monthly subscription", because without a valid account, I can't access the API data.
I'm cool with a commercial license for those 3rd party devs that like to charge RL money for their tools/services. This is good for CCP and if you as a 3rd party dev think you have a tool that's worth the money - go for it.
But I very much dislike that people like me have to get any kind of license, free or not. Because I'm just a little hobby programmer, not a lawyer. And knowing all the legal **** lawyers are able to put into legal documents to screw sane and honorable people like me over, I don't feel very compelled to that idea. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Caphelo
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:35:00 -
[1004]
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
You are so full of crap. If you don't want to make money off of people FIXING YOUR BROKEN GAME, then your fee will be a one time $0 or $1 fee.
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Adunh Slavy
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:38:00 -
[1005]
Originally by: CCP Whatever
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
Translation: Look, Look everyone! Shiney Stuff, look over here! Look, Shiiiiineeeeey. This way to the great egress!
Aww did I hurt your feelings? Such is the price of mistrust and skeptisism.
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MissyDark
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:42:00 -
[1006]
This devblog is the first time I wanted to fill a whole page of profanity, in caps, huge font directed at CCP. Are you ****ING HIGH? You have the best community, people spending huge amounts of time and money to build things around EVE and you bithslap them in the face for that. It's clear signal for potential developers - wanna do something for community? Then don't cuz you're gonna pay! It is INSANE, whoever came up with this should be fired and kicked out of 10th floor, as an example.
I'm... just speechless. It's like someone coming up on stage at fanfest, throwing poo at the audience.
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Aphoxema G
Aphoxema G Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:46:00 -
[1007]
CCP says it's not to make money, but it is up to them to arbitrarily decide how much their "intellectual property" is worth. While I can understand them wanting to restrict others from making money off of their work, this "agreement", or the disclosure of it, seems awfully insincere.
Yes, this is to make money. Even worse, it's specifically to make more money off of existing revenue streams that have zero cost to CCP already. ------------------------------- The fox chases for her meal, but the rabbit runs for her life. |
Dograzor
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:50:00 -
[1008]
Edited by: Dograzor on 16/06/2011 17:53:50
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
EDIT: Why do I see thesame failscade incoming as when CCP tried to get us to vote EVE as the game of the year? Just when I thought CCP was making progress. -
"We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value" |
Siphra D'morte
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 17:53:00 -
[1009]
Based on CCPs recent decisions; (Glad they are temporary putting a hold on this one) I think they hired recently someone with an MBA, It might be a good Idea to FIRE the DUMBASS before you become the Atari of MMOs.
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:56:00 -
[1010]
Originally by: Aphoxema G CCP says it's not to make money, but it is up to them to arbitrarily decide how much their "intellectual property" is worth. While I can understand them wanting to restrict others from making money off of their work, this "agreement", or the disclosure of it, seems awfully insincere.
Yes, this is to make money. Even worse, it's specifically to make more money off of existing revenue streams that have zero cost to CCP already.
Given how CCP continually manage to screw the pooch, hump the dog, jump the shark etc with every second thing they do and say, and the resulting damage that does to CCP's brand, they should actually be paying us to use their IP.
Personally, I would love to know how a company as bad as CCP can actually function.
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Victor Dreadwolf
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:56:00 -
[1011]
So you are going to charge people who work for free to close the gaps in your terrible product/service.
In the long run this will significantly hurt EVE in exchange for a minuscule quick profit.
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MissyDark
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Posted - 2011.06.16 17:58:00 -
[1012]
Edited by: MissyDark on 16/06/2011 18:04:25
Originally by: CCP Zulu
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development.
But it will deter. It's like putting a huge entry tax for every startup company in a country and expecting people to start businesses. You will a lot less "startup" projects around eve. If this existed before we probably would have never seen evemon or eft.
Originally by: CCP Zulu
The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand
Stop right there. Great community grew around eve because there was no control. People created and you didn't throw obstacles and even helped (eve api). Whye the hell do you want to change that? People's apps don't have "made by ccp" all over them, right? Besides you should know already you cannot "control" your brand. Brand is the reputation of the company, product quality, employee conduct, standards of communication, financial reliability, customer support and most important: trust. They affect reputation and create brand. You "control" the brand by executing on standards and policies set within company. You do not "control" the brand by trying to force your customers and business partners to work the way you want them too. It never works and every company that tries that quickly gains a reputation of corporate *******s and survive by maintaining monopoly or dies.
This are the basics of brand management in corporate organization - what the hell is going on at CCP so you would make such insane decision? Can't you see you have just hurt your reputation and broken trust of your customers? Good god...
Originally by: CCP Zulu
and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Man but why?! Everything was already achieved happened without this control. Why break things, WTF? The eve is about free market and now you want to regulate the "market" of things build around eve, instead letting them live and die due to popularity, demand, usefulness?
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
You should throw it out of the window and start long and tedious process of rebuilding the trust you have violated. By this single devblog you just transitioned from cool-guys-at-ccp to corporates-from-SOE/EA. Congratu****inglations.
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
I'd rather have a video of me pink painted and running naked on the highway placed on youtube than have my name associated with such PR failure.
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DraLaFi
Caldari Volition Cult Fatal Ascension
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:00:00 -
[1013]
Basically this means our corp have to pay CCP 99US/year to run eve-volt.net website...
Why? Cos we have a link to a GTC provider (ShatteredCrystal.com) that is paying alittle money to maintain the domain name this is by far not covering the amount needed to maintain it tho!
I don't see that as being fair to anyone other then somebody at CCP figured out a way to "Milk" the users even more for more "isk"...
We will now have to remove that link cos its definitely not viable to keep it in place since it will cost us far more to pay for a license then to miss out on a few bucks to help pay for an upkeep fee... ------- Regards DraLaFi Zathras - Overseer / Director
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Chai Ming
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:11:00 -
[1014]
seem like CCP's gettin tired of fighting Bots and have turned on a much fatter prey.. THE CAREBEARS
I to run a small service for isk, (No, not a kissing booth), but like many others this service will stop, and I will have to reconsider why I play this 'Game-which-once-were-the-greatest-thing-since-Zelda'
hugs to all (But BizDevs)
Chai..
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visableone
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:18:00 -
[1015]
simple solution for every 3rd party app dev,... host all your sites from malaysia, your trivial interwebby laws mean nothing there!!
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Devan Corvel
Intaki Liberation Front
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:23:00 -
[1016]
First, I want to echo the general sentiment that there needs to be a differentiation between in-game ISK donations/revenue, and real world money. Please re-examine this thoroughly.
Moving on, I have a suggestion for a way to address several of the issues raised with not-for-profit type sites like DotLan, etc:
- Introduce a category of the license for the not-for-profit sites.
- Make an option on the account management screen to support these sites (individually or in groups, to be decided by the license holders) with one-time or recurring payments.
- Give these sites a grace period of something like 3 months for donations to pay their license fee before paying out of pocket.
- Contributions beyond the license fee go to the license holder(s) to offset hosting/bandwidth/upkeep costs.
- Include monthly & annual donations vs expenses meter (info could be submitted to CCP to avoid scamming). Once it's full for a rolling 12-month period, payments could be temporarily disabled and a "thanks, we're all good" message would show instead.
Benefits to the community, people who run these services, and CCP:
- Players then can easily contribute to the sites/services they use, and see what goes into running these services.
- Site operators benefit from increased exposure and financial support.
- CCP gets their license fees and to feel good for helping out the little guys who run this stuff.
- Everybody wins.
(Sorry if this re-hashes anyone else's ideas, 34 pages is a bit much to sift through.)
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Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:28:00 -
[1017]
Two things bother me in ccp zulus response. One is the emphasis on control. Why? To what end? In my experience eve players are good at shooting down less than perfect 3rd party code. The other is that he reminds me of an alliance I was in b4 it fell apart. They also tried to resist growing from their mistakes and when they could not resist it they blamed it on members mis understanding orders. the leaders wrestled for control blindly unaware that they were there to serve their members instead of contol them causing each contolled member to defect one at a time. They lasted 3 weaks and caused the deaths of most of their member corps. Ccp... stop. Now. Capsuleermaybe cool but it isn't worth the rest of th is trash. We pay money to play a game. That's it. Not to be contolled.
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Silicon Sailor
Northgate
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:29:00 -
[1018]
Edited by: Silicon Sailor on 16/06/2011 18:29:42 Instead of trying to limit/control/own the brand/UI you COULD go the other way.... Open the UI. Add a boatload of API calls that are UI based. Watch the UI grow in ways you never imagined
Yes, as a matter of fact, I AM making reference to WOW. Fact is, their Modding community is deleriously happy, and robust, because they have more options then they know what to do with.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:33:00 -
[1019]
I guess my biggest question is:
How "stupid" are you people that attend Fanfest? I ask this because of this part:
Quote: At this year's Fanfest CCP hosted the first Dev Track in what we hope will be a regular event. To kick off the event I gave an exciting announcement about monetization
So...were you all to drunk to call CCP out then?
I mean, I wasn't there, but it sounds like it wasn't openly opposed...boo-ing, shouting, maybe some stuff thrown (like plastic cups; nothing deadly) at the Dev Booth.
I love the Internet..."Ball-less Wonders" in 'Real Life'; Heroes 'Online'. <-ya, that's right, I'm ****ed. You attendees didn't protest this; if you did....YOU FAILED 'PROTESTING 101'.
...lol...charging money for what you once provided free (API). ---------------- "Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising everytime we fall." - Confucius |
Selthae
Celestial Horizon Corp.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:34:00 -
[1020]
Originally by: Silicon Sailor Edited by: Silicon Sailor on 16/06/2011 18:29:42 Instead of trying to limit/control/own the brand/UI you COULD go the other way.... Open the UI. Add a boatload of API calls that are UI based. Watch the UI grow in ways you never imagined
Yes, as a matter of fact, I AM making reference to WOW. Fact is, their Modding community is deleriously happy, and robust, because they have more options then they know what to do with.
I'll bet their API is better documented and easier to consume as well.
|
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Soden Rah
Gallente EVE University Ivy League
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:35:00 -
[1021]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
If you're so swamped by Incarna/CQ why are you releasing devblogs and tests for non CQ stuff just before release, while keeping total silence on Incarna, which is about to release?
There is more feedback in this one thread, than we have had in the past week on the patch you are about to release.
Given that as you say, most of the feedback is based on 'misunderstandings', or in other words you failing to write a dev blog that was clear and informative, as opposed to vague and confusing...
I would take a long hard look at your communication... which is said a lot... which is a hint that you need to do something about it.
-------------------------------------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:36:00 -
[1022]
Any time that you, CCP, are looking for community feedback on an idea via a dev blog, you should make it VERY CLEAR on the header (rather than brief mention in the body) of the dev blog that this is a preliminary draft and is in serious need of feedback. e.g. "We are seeking feedback..." rather than "We are pleased to announce.."
Most of the outrage over this was due to it sounding like a committed feature, instead of an early proposal.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Helicity Boson
Amarr The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:39:00 -
[1023]
Originally by: Xailia Any time that you, CCP, are looking for community feedback on an idea via a dev blog, you should make it VERY CLEAR on the header (rather than brief mention in the body) of the dev blog that this is a preliminary draft and is in serious need of feedback. e.g. "We are seeking feedback..." rather than "We are pleased to announce.."
Most of the outrage over this was due to it sounding like a committed feature, instead of an early proposal.
Wrong. Most of the outrage is based on the fact that we have lost faith in them in general.
An endless parade of cow-dung, lies, failure and general mismanagement has eroded our faith in CCP so much that we have no choice but to always assume the worst.
And frankly they deserve it. Money-grubbing fools.
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Charlie Aires
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:42:00 -
[1024]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Originally by: Xailia ....
Wrong. Most of the outrage is based on the fact that we have lost faith in them in general.
An endless parade of cow-dung, lies, failure and general mismanagement has eroded our faith in CCP so much that we have no choice but to always assume the worst.
And frankly they deserve it. Money-grubbing fools.
+1
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Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:52:00 -
[1025]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Wrong. Most of the outrage is based on the fact that we have lost faith in them in general.
That is the root of it, but if they were more amiable, forward, and open to feedback then threadnaughts such as these would be much less... frothy.
I agree with the money part, MT is pointless. In this case the $99 doesn't even get them anything, so that isn't really about the money.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:54:00 -
[1026]
Originally by: Xailia
I agree with the money part, MT is pointless. In this case the $99 doesn't even get them anything, so that isn't really about the money.
'cept a whole lotta Hate; CCP would make an awesome tank. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Shandir
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:56:00 -
[1027]
Originally by: Xailia Any time that you, CCP, are looking for community feedback on an idea via a dev blog, you should make it VERY CLEAR on the header (rather than brief mention in the body) of the dev blog that this is a preliminary draft and is in serious need of feedback. e.g. "We are seeking feedback..." rather than "We are pleased to announce.."
Most of the outrage over this was due to it sounding like a committed feature, instead of an early proposal.
Not exactly, the very fact that someone thought this was a good idea is pretty offensive - even as a first public draft. I have to wonder what genuinely horrifying ideas they threw out during the meeting that prepared this draft, ideas that made this seem reasonable?
Any suggestions? I think the following were probably considered and discarded: * Kick a puppy each time Somer makes another billion ISK. * Require biometric confirmation of identity to get a developer licence - but the old fashioned way - mail a finger or an eyeball. * For his contributions to EVE, make a statue of Chribba. A frozen carbonite statue with him inside it, sitting in Hilmar's office. -
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Athellant Nardieu
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:59:00 -
[1028]
CCP,
If this wasn't about the money, then why are you charging $99? If you just wanted to know who was using your IP, then you could charge $1 instead.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 18:59:00 -
[1029]
Quote: http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=901
"The first time Dan from accounting was invited to a Dev Meeting."
----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Skukurai Minthis
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:07:00 -
[1030]
I have seen enough of the websites and tools which I know and love already state that the implication of this will cause them to shut down. I understand the reasoning for charging, however I do not agree with it.
|
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Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:08:00 -
[1031]
Originally by: Dyner I guess my biggest question is:
How "stupid" are you people that attend Fanfest? I ask this because of this part:
Quote: At this year's Fanfest CCP hosted the first Dev Track in what we hope will be a regular event. To kick off the event I gave an exciting announcement about monetization
So...were you all to drunk to call CCP out then?
I mean, I wasn't there, but it sounds like it wasn't openly opposed...boo-ing, shouting, maybe some stuff thrown (like plastic cups; nothing deadly) at the Dev Booth.
I love the Internet..."Ball-less Wonders" in 'Real Life'; Heroes 'Online'. <-ya, that's right, I'm ****ed. You attendees didn't protest this; if you did....YOU FAILED 'PROTESTING 101'.
...lol...charging money for what you once provided free (API).
I was there. I assure you it was all about an unspecified fee to allow capsuleer to exist despite iphone app store charg3e breaking eula. They took that good idea and extended it to every 3rd party app even that is solicing voluntary donations. Believe me I had no idea it can get so ugly from adding an option to iphone devs to taking away my coding instead of mining gaming style. And here I was worries all this time th ey would break mining to make it more like wow where u can't afk to code ...and they broke coding instead.
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dEEpdenim
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:10:00 -
[1032]
Dear CCP stuff,
I think you are moving in right direction, especially with new API under development. Therefore, the announced price and terms are something you definitely need reconsider.
I have some experience to make 3rd party application, particularly for "World in Conflict". I would love to make something for EvE as well. Unfortunately, with existing API functionality there is no much room for fundamentally new applications.
Personally, I have no problem with 99USD (I prefer 49,95 tho) annual license fee for commercial (business) license as far my App can generate "some" revenue in one for or another and this revenue will cover my license and operational costs.
You many times stressed that CCP is business organization, and for us is just the game. I agree, you have full rights to use and manage your IP as you wish, but it should be a bit different manner. And if you want to to get a cut of profit one way or another it is just fine. Just make it like many other companies do: enroll 3rd party applications development program.
It can include, for example, proper SDK, documentation, Ads support, sponsorship program, promotions, etc... You name it. Of course, it will require some effort and resources on your part. But I have no doubts, you will get huge benefits in return.
Let me give you just one example: Kill Mail Verifier/Converter. I will glad to see such service available, ads supported, small fee based (with ISKs too). Just add unique ID for each KillMail (honestly, I was surprised in first place why it missed). And With API functionality, available only under Aps development program, 3rd party App can request original KillMail in English, German or Russian. Or leave convertation into other language to App.
Let people focus on theirs business if they want to, expanding services around your core product.
But for such applications, de facto part of EvE as EFT for example, make this lenience fee symbolic, like a buck per year, since your lawyers need "proper" established "agreement" to let them accept donations.
Just make it win-win for everybody
gl, hf, bbq
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Uglavitch Nefrex
Minmatar Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:14:00 -
[1033]
I find this disgusting CCP. You are getting too greedy.
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Vigoth Ritic
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:18:00 -
[1034]
Did Sony "ok" this action?
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Mitchello
B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:28:00 -
[1035]
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten Two things bother me in ccp zulus response. One is the emphasis on control. Why? To what end? In my experience eve players are good at shooting down less than perfect 3rd party code.
That is not the actual focus of that, think more of the lines of preserving copyrights, making sure that people do not run off with what CCP has made for things not related to EVE, and such. But also, for example, think of those Apps on the android or apple stores where people make money off selling (useless) cheat codes and exploits and wannabee protips for EVE for a few dollars. I recently petitioned another one of those, and while that cost only 2 euro, it had already made 570+ sales. And that was just one of plenty.
What is missing from the CCP side really, is good clarity on where their priorities are, what their interests are, what they would like to see treated carefully but where they are open to feedback, and a general view on what their perspective is on this situation. This so that customers can provide their own perspectives, and other elements of the equation. And from that, CCP can make a well corrected business model out of this, which does not hurt user synergy, but stimulates it while preserving CCP's interests.
We had something very close to that at the roundtable at fanfest, but for unknown reasons none of that seems to have made it into the process that resulted in this devblog. Why? No idea. That is up to CCP really.
Either way, there is another opportunity here for both sides to sit down at the table, poll brains, combine perspectives, engage in clarity on priorities and concerns, and come up with something mutually beneficial.
INCARNA. EXPERT HOUSING, QUARTER STYLE, New Eden's Blue Lagoon. Coming Soon.
|
Demy Slade
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:32:00 -
[1036]
Edited by: Demy Slade on 16/06/2011 19:33:58
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Reasonable approach indeed. I suggest a lot of Clarification starting off with what you actually plan to acive if it is mainly a protection of intelectual property i think you should lower that fee down a bit and rather go for an Annual percentage payment. Also i'd suggest that you start up a voluntary Programm with Free Licenses for non Comercial Applications of your IP. That would in my eyes include a lot of services and service sites rendered. Please watch the backdoor of donations. If a person is not requiered to make a payment it is not a Comercial Gain for the other Party. At least it is not defined by any Comercial Law in the EU i know of. Furhtermore i'd suggest to reword the Intro into "Great News for Developers wishing to profit from their Applications with our Blessing" You should imidiately rather work with future buisness partners before you decide to announce costs. Makes you look bad. Just my two cents on quiet a PR Desaster that could have been avoided.
[EDIT] The so called control of their Database is their Right as Company. Every asset has a value and so does the API and it has to be fixed in Annual Reports just what that assets are.
I also would like to point out in case it got lost in the storm that if you include ISK Based services into a "Comercial" Legal definition you also define ISK as a Tradegood that got licensed and paid for with that very License. Just wanna save you that shoot in the knee.
Cheers Demy
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runde trunde
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:34:00 -
[1037]
i could spend 1 hour typing 5 pages of rage and why this is a stupid idea . but im gonna cut it all down to .. DONT . just stop everything your currently doing .. turn around and proceed
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MadMax RuS
Fremen Sietch DarkSide.
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:43:00 -
[1038]
- Rmt cartels have won on all fronts around the galaxy. You're doing nothing
- Tournament's getting more and more ****ty every year, I won't be surprised if you will not broadcast group stages next year.
- Now you're trying to charge Chribba, Battleclinic\evenews24\etc owners for doing a good job and helping your universe to be better and more complete.
You're digging your own grave ccp
-------
|
Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:46:00 -
[1039]
Originally by: Mitchello
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten Two things bother me in ccp zulus response. One is the emphasis on control. Why? To what end? In my experience eve players are good at shooting down less than perfect 3rd party code.
That is not the actual focus of that, think more of the lines of preserving copyrights, making sure that people do not run off with what CCP has made for things not related to EVE, and such. But also, for example, think of those Apps on the android or apple stores where people make money off selling (useless) cheat codes and exploits and wannabee protips for EVE for a few dollars. I recently petitioned another one of those, and while that cost only 2 euro, it had already made 570+ sales. And that was just one of plenty.
What is missing from the CCP side really, is good clarity on where their priorities are, what their interests are, what they would like to see treated carefully but where they are open to feedback, and a general view on what their perspective is on this situation. This so that customers can provide their own perspectives, and other elements of the equation. And from that, CCP can make a well corrected business model out of this, which does not hurt user synergy, but stimulates it while preserving CCP's interests.
We had something very close to that at the roundtable at fanfest, but for unknown reasons none of that seems to have made it into the process that resulted in this devblog. Why? No idea. That is up to CCP really.
Either way, there is another opportunity here for both sides to sit down at the table, poll brains, combine perspectives, engage in clarity on priorities and concerns, and come up with something mutually beneficial.
Good point on control. If control means botting sites go down I want more of it. Could b because I never venture outside the for isk realm and into for cash realm I am not aware of these things. But if ingame isk scam and plex ganking r ok then even isk scamming via fake apps should b legal. Sorry couldd not spell better or edit quote using phone at work. I fully support any ccp control on ppl asking for cash. Vague words here from ccp now make me expect the worst esp on this issue. I may hav missed that round table. Blame the documentary guy w the camera and being drunk.
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Prince Spiderman
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:51:00 -
[1040]
Looks like some Senior Account Manager have taken control over CCP?
You guys better listen to the community because you deliver the game but the community and customers will deliver the success. No game, no EVE, noone cares. No costumers, no EVE, no CCP. You should care.
Thanks for listening and thinking!
|
|
groentenman
Krannon of Sherwood Carthage Empires
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:52:00 -
[1041]
Dammit CCP, can't you see that most of the 3rd party developers made their applications because they love EVE so much and wanted to give something back to the community? Charging them for something that they build for free is just a ******ed thing to do! Running low on cash due to the development of dust 514 which a lot of people don't want or did you guys blew your annual budget on PS3 licenses?
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Martin Lloydd
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:57:00 -
[1042]
Originally by: Pneumon Blaster We are already Paying for the privilege of doing CCPÆs job - if people are joining mass testing - that's ONE BIG LOL for me. Never seen company using their customers as testers who paids for testing. LOL
You... have heard of Microsoft before, right?
This is actually quite a common occurance for a large host of development companies. :)
|
Royston Townhead
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 19:59:00 -
[1043]
Originally by: MadMax RuS
- Rmt cartels have won on all fronts around the galaxy. You're doing nothing
- Tournament's getting more and more ****ty every year, I won't be surprised if you will not broadcast group stages next year.
- Now you're trying to charge Chribba, Battleclinic\evenews24\etc owners for doing a good job and helping your universe to be better and more complete.
You're digging your own grave ccp
+1
And 1 more thing
I was intrested in dust 514, but now you can just put that right up your ass, and give us, the fed-up, now jaded capsule fan, some proper content, AND THE TRUTH. Is that too much to ask?
|
Rapier Gir1
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:00:00 -
[1044]
Originally by: Shonion
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Would you fire every 'tards who guessed this idea? Thank you.
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EliteXHitman
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:00:00 -
[1045]
Its a sad day when CCP cant fund anything and gets hacked....if this happens it proves CCP is strapped for cash and may look like its time to look for a diffrent game to play because next step will be bankruptcy as the next thing CCP needs to deal with :p
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Dirk Decibel
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:03:00 -
[1046]
Hey CCP, could you plz stop posting 'drafts' like that like they are already decided on and this is the way they will be implemented? You keep scaring the **** out of us...
Seriously, what is it with companies that makes them SO bad at communicating with their customers?
LulzSec
Eve website may or may not work off and on; we're not actually hitting it, their stuff is so crappy that it goes down with the logins.
|
Nardman
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:05:00 -
[1047]
Originally by: Xailia Any time that you, CCP, are looking for community feedback on an idea via a dev blog, you should make it VERY CLEAR on the header (rather than brief mention in the body) of the dev blog that this is a preliminary draft and is in serious need of feedback. e.g. "We are seeking feedback..." rather than "We are pleased to announce.."
Most of the outrage over this was due to it sounding like a committed feature, instead of an early proposal.
The way it was worded, it most likely was a committed feature until they saw they were about to **** off the vast majority of their customers and ALL of the people that are developing these 3rd party aps. As soon as they saw the feedback, it was damage control time: "Uhh, just kidding, this was a first draft of a terrible idea! haha.. ha ... ahhhh".
Although that wasn't why people were ****ed. People were ****ed because of how this would stymie the development of these 3rd party aps by charging people who spend their free time to offer them to the community for free. The way it was worded it came off as a big "**** you" to the entire player base.
It is their company and they can do whatever they want with it, but I'd assume alienating the majority of their player base and the select talented few that makes their game much more playable would be a bad idea.
If money truly "isn't the issue" as CCP stated, they should just include the license as part of the 14.95 subscription fee. Have a check box in the account management pages that says something along the lines of "enable license" that would allow people to develop these programs. Since money isn't the issue, again as CCP stated, just have people agree to the license when they develop programs like this, why the need for the $99 "lol it's not about money" fee? THIS IS DOMINION! |
BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:08:00 -
[1048]
Edited by: BeanBagKing on 16/06/2011 20:10:46 This makes me really sad to see. I feel like it will destroy Eve's community, and I'm pretty sure it will. I haven't seen it directly, but I'm told sites like eve-files, dotlan, Evemon, etc will all go down.
People put a lot of hard work on their own, unpaid overtime, server expenses, etc into makeing free to use apps. Most of the time any donations they ask for or ads they use don't come near to paying the operating costs along, to say nothing of turning a profit. These people don't make a living off of this.
Your talking about charging $100, more than the anual server costs required to run these things, for free-to-use tools created by the community. From my understanding, you want to charge this to people that aren't even charging for their end of service (donations and ads aren't charging, it's just trying to minimize losses). Your throwing a ton of legal red tape and fees into the hard work people have put into what should be a fun game.
Don't do it, please drop the idea all together CCP. I see nothing wrong with going after people trying to turn a profit off your IP (i.e those that charge real money for use/items), but thats totally different than charging community sites a rediculous (or even any) amount of money. Even if I'm understanding this wrong, I just don't see a point to it, drop the idea all together.
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electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:15:00 -
[1049]
I'm not understanding this. If I put on my program "donations of ISK accepted" I would have to buy this license?
Or what if I don't say anything (or even say "donations refused!"), and someone donates ISK anyway? Will I have to buy the license because someone gave me ISK for my program even though I said nothing about(or refuse)donations?
Or is it that if I wanted to charge people actual dollars to use my program, then I would have to buy said license? ― Vexo M > He turned the drives up to 11 |
Aganola
Amarr Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:17:00 -
[1050]
This is SO NOT GOOD!
Even if it's a bloody draft. The fact that they actually published means to me that they are very seriously think about this.
I fully disapprove this blog! Every single program that was made by third parties was made to overcome YOUR design shortages, and lack of basic understanding of player needs.
If you really want to charge for third parties, than ASK FOR ROYALTIES FROM THE ACTUAL MONEY that was donated!
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Joanaz
Minmatar LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:22:00 -
[1051]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
I hope you learned something from this.
Yeah, right!?
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Kane Molou
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:26:00 -
[1052]
I find this a joke.. this along with everyting else that CCP is doing of late is making me seriously reconsider if CCP deserves ANY of my Cash..
It seems to me that CCP is getting 'Greedy' lets take a look at the other big game that allows people to make things for it.. oh yeah that would be the annoying WOW.. which oh yeah your NOT ALLOWED to charge money for.
Now lets look at some other software being 'released' One of which would be the UnReal Development Kit, which oh that's right you only PAY money for if your using it for Commercial purposes such as.... making a profit from it.
Telling Developers that they now have to pay money to be able to develope anything for eve is a joke, by rights CCP should be paying Developers half the time they are working for free and out of good faith, they have for years not been able to make money..
Add to this that all of this is hitting at the same time as they announce their Real Money Microtransactions and you start to really wonder what CCP is more concerned about, their IP or their 'wallet'..
If you look at the posts and back at Fan Fest CCP claims they 'listen' to the player base, they claim they list to what we want and give us what we want.. and yet I do not see them doing that, what I see is them saying that they are goign to listen then ignoring it all and just going straight for the wallet.. Does any one else remember ANY mention of MT's during Fan Fest's main Videos? I've gone over them and I honsetly can't remember them ever mentioning it face to face with their fans, I wonder if it was because if they mentioned that:
1. your going to have to pay Real money for half of Incarna.. 2. your going to have to start shelling out REAL money for 3rd Party Apps.
That they would have had a riot on their hands at Fan Fest?
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A Little Girl
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:34:00 -
[1053]
Hello Mr Accountant Sir who is now running CCP and coming up with these ideas. Please give control back to the game developers and people who care about the game and don't think $$$ is more than everything else. Thank you Mr Accountant Sir.
Signed.
A Little Girl
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:34:00 -
[1054]
more *sigh*
See Zulu... 3 more pages in a couple of hours. This isn't just going to go away you know that right? This has become the new RMT devblog from hell, only it didn't specifically talk about RMT I know that's ultimately what you're after with this... so why not just come out and say it?
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:36:00 -
[1055]
Quote: That is not the actual focus of that, think more of the lines of preserving copyrights, making sure that people do not run off with what CCP has made for things not related to EVE, and such
Excuse me, how is this different than the already in place checks that CCP demands to do on websites?
Quote:
Good point on control. If control means botting sites go down I want more of it
Excuse me, why can't I just send CCP a copy of my driving license and a bill, like every other company including banks accept to do?
I am quite sure that if a bank is fine, then a gaming company should not be stricter.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
darmwand
wiremaniacs
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:38:00 -
[1056]
I think something vaguely similar has been said before, but just in case:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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JamesCLK
Red Mist Ltd
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:44:00 -
[1057]
Phew, talk about a rude wake up call!
As has been stated countless times already (abeit in a more blunt way), you really scared some people with that blog and the storm of complaints that it brought could very likely have been at least partially avoided if it had been made much more clear that it was still up for debate.
Regardless, I digress. So I'm just going to drop my feedback right here;
Since CCP isn't "supposedly" in this for the money (the revenue is quite minor compared to the subscriptions), I was going to suggest that you tie this in with the already established PLEX programe. Since a PLEX is worth 15$, being able to pay for the commercial liscence with a PLEX would likely solve a lot of problems. This means that apps or services that charge ISK (as an ingame currency for payment), or who gain substancial donations would be able to pay for said liscence with a handfull of PLEX (much like how we can buy Fanfest tickets with them, much appreciated CCP). In a way, this is equivalent to having the users pay real $ since someone, somewhere, sometime bought that PLEX for said money (and indeed, that is the beauty of the PLEX market).
Now of course this means that these 3rd party developpers would need to pull together a couple of billion isk worth of PLEX to pay the annual fee, but it shouldn't be too big a task (it just plain adds to the options for the developer since you're more likely to be donated or paid ingame isk than RL$$$).
This does however present some interesting issues with regards to the market price of PLEX (more demand with a somewhat constant supply is a large player in inflating PLEX prices if there isn't a PLEX reliant expansion on the horizon - Incarna, hint hint) rising, something I'm sure the CCP marketing department would be delighted to conduct research uppon.
Just my 0.02 ISK.
Cheers, and let's hope this doesn't blow up in anyones face more than it already has.
PS: Many people have said this, and I will too: Don't forget to bring it up with the CSM and possibly Chribba (the guy did offer to fly to Iceland to take it up with you).
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Erik Finnegan
Gallente Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:46:00 -
[1058]
99$ per year is a symbolic fee IMHO for monetizing on the EVE IP. |
Xailia
Unsteady Corporation
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:48:00 -
[1059]
Originally by: Nardman The way it was worded, it most likely was a committed feature until they saw they were about to **** off the vast majority of their customers and ALL of the people that are developing these 3rd party aps. As soon as they saw the feedback, it was damage control time: "Uhh, just kidding, this was a first draft of a terrible idea! haha.. ha ... ahhhh".
I actually did think this until I posted that comment; I went back and did note "We got a lot of good feedback at Fanfest and would like to get more before finalizing the service." so they were still seeking feedback. Though from the wording of the dev blog at a whole, they thought it would go over pretty well.
Makes me wonder how many people at CCP actually looked at it, or if it was just the higher ups - if they had asked any of the lower devs who started at CCP after being 3p devs, it would have been reeled in before hitting the blog and the outside community.
"The sky above the port was the color of a television, tuned to a dead channel."
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Zedrik Cayne
Gallente Standards and Practices
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:51:00 -
[1060]
I'm angry. Been seething since I caught wind of this, and have finally calmed down enough to post.
Your game, such as it is, is made up of some fairly mediocre content, and the sandbox.
The sandbox is where all the good stories, the good *content* is created. We the players fill in a huge amount of content for you. We do it because we can. Because it creates good stories and we can say 'I did this cool thing...here...take a look at the video. Here, check out the kills. Yes, it is all real, verified by the servers.'
You tout that EvE is real. And in a very deep sense it is. There are uncountable hours of effort people put in, just in game, to make it real. To make it Epic.
And out of game, even more countless hours are put together to smooth over the missing pieces of stuff that should be there already. Killboards, industry calculators, jump calculators, documentation, search functions, wikis. For the most part not for profit, sinking tens to hundred of dollars for server and bandwidth costs. Trying to claw some of that back with ads and timecode sales to not create a huge cash sink.
This proposed 'license' fee, is a direct slap in the face. Did anyone even consider the implications before floating this in front of our faces? Every Blog with google ads. EvE Kill...EvE Files...EvE Search. Even my own http://eve-locator.justaddhippopotamus.com will fall under this fee.
You've probably got the most tech savvy, entrenched player base going of any MMO. We create the stories that make your game Epic. We are starting to tire of your recent missteps. (NewForums (tm) BrokePatches (tm) BadlyThoughtOutAnnouncements (tm) AurumShips (tm))
We as a player base have to trust that you as a company, are doing a few things:
1) Keep the game fair. 2) Don't break the game. 3) Don't be stupid (tm)
You've been doing okay on #1...wait...no..aurum insta-ships for cash. You've been doing okay on #2...wait...no..Broken-ass patches/updates/forums You've been doing okay on #3...wait...no..Dumb licencing ideas.
Your player base thirsts for you to keep those three things right square in front of your face.
We make our own fun in your playground. We even try helping others to have fun in your playground.
You add Planetary Interaction. Practically without real documentation on how it works. The players pour over your available information and create nice tools and wikis and put it out there for you.
You add sleepers and T3 production. No documentation. The players again pour over it and create tools and wikis and documentation.
Forums don't have a search feature? The players created one for you. Your interface for finding your stuff in game is poor? Several have been created for you.
Want to fly a spiffy new ship? Don't know what to train to get there? Prying all the information you want out of the game is painful. There's a tool for that.
You want to do something weird with fittings? But don't know if it will fit before you buy it because you might need an implant or something to make it fit? There's a tool for that.
Need to find a particular agent for a particular purpose? (Research for example?) You can't find that info in the game...There's a tool for that.
All of these things are not in your game. All of these things were created by your players, for the other players. They are what make the game playable, and reduce the brick-wall of learning curve significantly. Your players help you retain new players by providing content that your game does not.
We like it that the game does not drag you through the content, that only self-motivated people can search and find and profit and get ahead.
I just spent time in Arnon, answering questions of new folks. Most of them when they complete their epic arc are kind of left flat..no direction. Your players provide that direction. The 'next thing' to do.
Don't screw that up. It is your move. --
Originally by: "RedSplat" You're the internet equivalent of a Deepfried Mars bar filled with stupid.
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Mane Frehm
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Posted - 2011.06.16 20:53:00 -
[1061]
What an amazing threadnought...verges on being a threadtitan. Classic example of a problem being created by poor communication and mixing together multiple issues. Allow me to simplify:
1. Intellectual Property (IP) - absolutely vital for CCP to maintain control over this (and players need to respect this). Although we'd really rather not have the lawyers around, they do have their place, and providing advice to about how to safeguard IP is important. But lawyers will always give zero risk advice; CCP needs to take a broader perspective when considering the value of their IP, as it has clearly been enhanced by the community.
2. Licensing - so many flavours, so little time. I defer to experts on which model(s) are appropriate, but clearly CCP needs a model that allows for monetarization but more importantly supports the community.
3. Costs of licenses/RMT. Folks are being delusional if they think the $99 was chosen to make money; somebody suggested the number and that was that. There's no way this is an approach that CCP is taking to make money - too much effort for too little return (even an MBA could figure that one out). And RMT??? Doesn't fit here at all.
4. Communications/PR. How to best describe it? Abject failure - unless the goal was to provoke mass rage, in which case it was definitely a success. This is an active and very vocal community, which is a huge asset for CCP. But when the communication to the community is unclear or rage inducing....
Simple comms rules - when its a proposal, say so. When its a draft, say so. When you are looking for input, say so (and when you're not, say so as well). And never present something as "complete" when it isn't. And for pitys sake, check with your users before dropping something on them unless you are 100% sure it will not be controversial in any way. BTW, no one can ever be 100% sure....
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Daniel Darkcross
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 20:59:00 -
[1062]
Edited by: Daniel Darkcross on 16/06/2011 21:00:32 It Has been said but I will say it again for every drop counts when you try to overflow a dam.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Joanaz
Minmatar LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:10:00 -
[1063]
Edited by: Joanaz on 16/06/2011 21:12:14
Originally by: Zedrik Cayne I'm angry. Been seething since I caught wind of this, and have finally calmed down enough to post.
Your game, such as it is, is made up of some fairly mediocre content, and the sandbox.
The sandbox is where all the good stories, the good *content* is created. We the players fill in a huge amount of content for you. We do it because we can. Because it creates good stories and we can say 'I did this cool thing...here...take a look at the video. Here, check out the kills. Yes, it is all real, verified by the servers.'
You tout that EvE is real. And in a very deep sense it is. There are uncountable hours of effort people put in, just in game, to make it real. To make it Epic.
And out of game, even more countless hours are put together to smooth over the missing pieces of stuff that should be there already. Killboards, industry calculators, jump calculators, documentation, search functions, wikis. For the most part not for profit, sinking tens to hundred of dollars for server and bandwidth costs. Trying to claw some of that back with ads and timecode sales to not create a huge cash sink.
This proposed 'license' fee, is a direct slap in the face. Did anyone even consider the implications before floating this in front of our faces? Every Blog with google ads. EvE Kill...EvE Files...EvE Search. Even my own http://eve-locator.justaddhippopotamus.com will fall under this fee.
You've probably got the most tech savvy, entrenched player base going of any MMO. We create the stories that make your game Epic. We are starting to tire of your recent missteps. (NewForums (tm) BrokePatches (tm) BadlyThoughtOutAnnouncements (tm) AurumShips (tm))
We as a player base have to trust that you as a company, are doing a few things:
1) Keep the game fair. 2) Don't break the game. 3) Don't be stupid (tm)
You've been doing okay on #1...wait...no..aurum insta-ships for cash. You've been doing okay on #2...wait...no..Broken-ass patches/updates/forums You've been doing okay on #3...wait...no..Dumb licencing ideas.
Your player base thirsts for you to keep those three things right square in front of your face.
We make our own fun in your playground. We even try helping others to have fun in your playground.
You add Planetary Interaction. Practically without real documentation on how it works. The players pour over your available information and create nice tools and wikis and put it out there for you.
You add sleepers and T3 production. No documentation. The players again pour over it and create tools and wikis and documentation.
Forums don't have a search feature? The players created one for you. Your interface for finding your stuff in game is poor? Several have been created for you.
Want to fly a spiffy new ship? Don't know what to train to get there? Prying all the information you want out of the game is painful. There's a tool for that.
You want to do something weird with fittings? But don't know if it will fit before you buy it because you might need an implant or something to make it fit? There's a tool for that.
Need to find a particular agent for a particular purpose? (Research for example?) You can't find that info in the game...There's a tool for that.
All of these things are not in your game. All of these things were created by your players, for the other players. They are what make the game playable, and reduce the brick-wall of learning curve significantly. Your players help you retain new players by providing content that your game does not.
We like it that the game does not drag you through the content, that only self-motivated people can search and find and profit and get ahead.
I just spent time in Arnon, answering questions of new folks. Most of them when they complete their epic arc are kind of left flat..no direction. Your players provide that direction. The 'next thing' to do.
Don't screw that up. It is your move.
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E man Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:12:00 -
[1064]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
Well that about sums it up. This is terrible.
If you are making RL cash fine.
ISK and donations should not be a part of this in any way shape or form.
Dumb Dumb Dumb.
Rage and I'n not even writing anything. ______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
Trell Kazak
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:14:00 -
[1065]
This is a terrible idea - did you guys learn nothing from WoTC and D&D 4e ? :)
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E man Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:16:00 -
[1066]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
What is confused? You are killing 3ed party aps, web sites anything. Many sites work on donationsàheck even guild pages often take donations..Every guild site going to fall under thisà.good luck.
You better take a step backààand actually rub 2 brain cells together before re posting. This is grade ôAö stupid.
______ Hello WoW players. Look at your toon, now back to me. Sadly it isn't me, but if it wasn't simplistic pre scripted linear mono dimensional game you could look like me. I'm in a Paladin |
Consortium Agent
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:17:00 -
[1067]
Originally by: CCP Atlas I'm sure we will have plenty to talk about in the discussion thread. :-)
So far, it seems like the players and the 3rd party developers have been doing all the discussing. Where's CCP in this discussion? If you wanted to have a discussion and get our feedback, then where the hell are you Atlas? Where's the discussion? All I see are a whole lot of posts from players and developers and a couple of vague responses from CCP Zulu and CCP Spitfire (depending on which of the two forums you're posting on, ofc - gah). Don't tell us you want to have a discussion about this and then never, ever, ever discuss it. WTF?
Let's discuss it then. We don't like some parts of it. Where is your feedback on our feedback besides a 'we'll get back to you at the end of the summer'? |
Dewgong
Amarr The Black Sparrow
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:24:00 -
[1068]
What the **** are you guys doing, CCP?
If you combined Richard Nixon, both Bushes, and Stalin, they still wouldn't be as bad as this.
You guys should sack whoever would think of the idea. |
somafiend
Caldari Dark Sun Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:24:00 -
[1069]
Suggestion for CCP:
How about an immunity list of applications of API use, watched over and tested by the CSM? Sites like killboards, EFT, EveMon, Battleclinic, evemaps.dotlan.net, Aura, and iClone are what I would think to be good examples of API usage that would be unanimous decisions for such a list. Things like PL's Sphere and other private applications would either have to be submitted to the CSM for review, or just pay the fee. If Capsuleer wanted to comeback and charge people, again, API fees sound acceptable. Blogging? Seriously, who makes a profit blogging...no fee.
Be rational about this CCP, and if you want to play the We're too busy to deal with this now card, you should have thought of it before opening your bowels on your paying customers. |
Josef Huffenpuff
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:30:00 -
[1070]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
Good Stuff
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Its not that we disagree with all that stuff about IP ownership, better contracts between us and CCP, support for our apps etc etc. Thats great, and feedback at Fanfest already told you that.
Its the MONEY thats the issue. 95% of everything out there is built for love and takes hundreds of hours. The ISK we get for it is peanuts. Even paid apps often don't even cover the hosting costs. You can count the number of successful profitable commercial apps on the fingers of your hands. Being asked to now pay $99 bucks is frankly insulting.
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Radruler
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:31:00 -
[1071]
Something you once promised to never approach suddenly destroys your public image for those with open eyes...console games can get away with bs like this because of the hurrdurr mentality of the population, but EVE requires skill and attentiveness in even the most basic functions, and this very aware userbase is not easily fooled. Better luck next time, or lose your 3rd party population which keeps this game alive - your choice, CCP.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Paukinra
Gallente Hard Rock Mining Co.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:33:00 -
[1072]
I'm sure you meant to post this on the 1st of April, your a bit late......
[url=http://eve-kill.net?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=722354] [/url] |
Zero Bit
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:33:00 -
[1073]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Enthral
|
Posted - 2011.06.16 21:33:00 -
[1074]
Considering the number of replies--36 pages worth--you would think we have 3rd party apps coming out our ears. Anyone who actually develops 3rd party apps that will be affected have any comment?
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XrayZII
AVE EVE
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:35:00 -
[1075]
Edited by: XrayZII on 16/06/2011 21:35:42
Originally by: Zedrik Cayne
post #1059
prolly the best detailed description of what CCP is about to **** up, tbh.
if they go though with this, new players will be hit by a brick wall. CCP will lose significant amount of old players, and will not gain new ones. They will kill the game.
Seeing CCP does not have the necessary tools to make eve played efficently, i see this as a very bad idea.
All my support to the existing App developers, u guys are doing an awesome job, keep up the good work.
And CCP... fire the person that came up with this idea, or he will get u all fired. --------------------------------
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:35:00 -
[1076]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
I'm glad to hear this, and hopefully you also do realize the potential you have to communicate with those it does affect directly, to create a smooth way forward.
As a 3rd party developer I do understand your concerns regarding IP, but the last thing I wish is to get thrown at the bottom of a legal pile of potential lawsuits, after all we create things because we appreciat what you have done for us.
Looking forward to giving my input on the matter should you want it to find a suitable way for all developers and yourself, and keep providing the community with services and applications.
/c
Secure 3rd party service | in-game 'Holy Veldspar' Now /w voice |
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:40:00 -
[1077]
Edited by: Consortium Agent on 16/06/2011 21:41:05
Originally by: Chribba
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
I'm glad to hear this, and hopefully you also do realize the potential you have to communicate with those it does affect directly, to create a smooth way forward.
As a 3rd party developer I do understand your concerns regarding IP, but the last thing I wish is to get thrown at the bottom of a legal pile of potential lawsuits, after all we create things because we appreciat what you have done for us.
Looking forward to giving my input on the matter should you want it to find a suitable way for all developers and yourself, and keep providing the community with services and applications.
/c
THIS
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ArmyOfMe
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:56:00 -
[1078]
Ive played this game since 04, and you can backpeddal all you want, but im still gonna say one thing to you before i let my accounts run out.
**** YOU CCP for your constant stream of bad moves the last few years.
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karrak
Muchacho's
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Posted - 2011.06.16 21:57:00 -
[1079]
Having played on and of since release on diff chars and accounts, of all the dumb things you have pulled of during the years this one is way up there. All one can do is shake ones head at your logic
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Rawr Cristina
Caldari Naqam
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:15:00 -
[1080]
Originally by: Enthral Considering the number of replies--36 pages worth--you would think we have 3rd party apps coming out our ears. Anyone who actually develops 3rd party apps that will be affected have any comment?
Services were included so Killboards & Graphics too. I somehow doubt everyone who makes Sigs for ISK will want to pay $99 to do so.
CCP, I think you need to step back and remember why your playerbase is so loyal to EVE. It's because of you, CCP, and how good you've been to us in the past, so please don't ruin your image on something so stupid as it'l do you far more harm than good.
ISK is NOT a real-world currency. ___
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Aganola
Amarr Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:21:00 -
[1081]
Originally by: Erik Finnegan 99$ per year is a symbolic fee IMHO for monetizing on the EVE IP.
No, it's not. For once: 100$ is a substantial amount of my monthly pay, therefore screw you CCP... I already pay for 3 accounts, I'm not gonna pay for developing my hobby too! Second: it is the whole issue that pushed most of us over the edge. Third: this amount of money (99$) will never ever be recovered by 3rd party apps in it's current form!
This reeks of some 'Financial from Apple' Guy (F.A.G.) getting a new job at CCCP... hello! We are not -that- bunch. We do not pay and do not want to pay for apps that we can also do ourselves if we want to...
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dhunpael
Caldari Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:23:00 -
[1082]
Congratulations ccp, you manage to de-prove the game with each patch and idea. Stop giving us patches and expansions if you keep to F*ck it up.
You have CSM =>USE IT you have the forums =>USE IT
BEFORE you post something like it's already decided
So next time you want to do something ask the people who are paying you. Or else the'll stop paying...
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Indy Rider
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:33:00 -
[1083]
Edited by: Indy Rider on 16/06/2011 22:33:18 This is just pathetic.
Its people like Chribba, the people who made Capsuleer, EVEMon and no doubt the other programs I dont know that people made for free to make EVE a generally easier experience.
How about instead of making Space Sims you take care of things like RMTers, Botters. Hell, how about you go and make a free app on the scale of those I mentioned above?
I have an idea, go flag all the eve youtube videos for copyright infrigement that people made to teach others how to learn at eve, because lets face it, your tutorials are still s***.
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Selthae
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:51:00 -
[1084]
Originally by: Enthral Considering the number of replies--36 pages worth--you would think we have 3rd party apps coming out our ears. Anyone who actually develops 3rd party apps that will be affected have any comment?
Read the thread.
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Zeta Zhul
Caldari Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2011.06.16 22:51:00 -
[1085]
What I find vastly amusing is someone thought this concept of requiring a $99 per year fee for applications and websites that accept isk only was a good idea.
You're kidding me right?
This isn't a case of badly worded responses; the wording as been reinforced several times.
This isn't the case of a single person going off on an unsupported tangent.
You actually had people at CCP think that charging $99 a year for isk only applications and websites was just peachy keen.
What is the color of the sky in your world?
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:02:00 -
[1086]
Ya know it just occurred to me how to solve this problem of licensing (aside from not implementing it, of course):
1. Commercial licenses should be determined by one of the following criteria: a. The licensee is a business entity b. The licensee intends to sell either outright or by subscription service for real life money the app they develop (these developers already have an incentive to pay the $99 or whatever it ends up being, and most of these licensee's will fall under criteria (a) anyway.)
That's it - that the criteria. Everything else should be considered a not-for-profit venture written by your core Eve players who pay you to play and have access to the API to begin with (through their subscriptions). Very simple. The core engineers who have built the tools with the sandbox you gave us should not be penalized by you in the form of a licensing fee when, frankly as others have pointed out, there would be no Eve without people like Chribba. This game would have died long ago without the personal sacrifices of time, money and effort your players have given to this game to provide those tools and applications that players *need* in order to succeed in Eve. You epic failed to design a game that encompassed enough tools to make the game playable, we picked up the pieces for you and made Eve online a viable game for going on 8 years now. Up until today we had fairly good synergy - you let us do pretty much what we want so long as we're not making a profit in violation of the TOS/EULA and we come up with better ideas than most people at CCP have on their best day.
Not that CCP even cares now. The bowels of monetization have been thoroughly scoured by the player base and we all spoke out in harmony against screwing over the very people who make Eve playable. If I didn't have EveMon, Eve-Files, Eve-Search, DotLan, eve-commander, eve-central, EveMeep, EFT and other such 3rd party tools I'd have stopped playing Eve a long time ago. I've been around since '04 myself. Back then you guys were pretty cool cats. You even used to come out at Christmas and let us hurl snowballs at you for fun. Now... now Eve is different. Not different good either. Now you're doing shady moves like crippling the large developer community for your game to give you a harder edged knife to go slice out the RMTers and win back some of those PLEX. Things like an entirely new kind of funds in Eve - WTF? What was wrong wish ISK, might I ask? You already have ISK for PLEX, now we'll have AUR for PLEX and AUR for ISK? WTF?? And ships with AUR? What, precisely, is there to gain from this? Oh, right, nvm... you're marketing nerds said you'll sell twice as many PLEX that way, didn't they? Or maybe is was the same brainiac's who said 'yeah, we ought to charge developers for access to our API' over in the bizdev department?
I always try to give CCP some slack. Most of us developers tend to give CCP *a lot* of slack. We understand how hard it is to write an awesome game like Eve and have to deal with stakeholders at every level, so we tend to be more forgiving than most when you f*ck sh*t up. But this... this crosses a line. By the time I got to read the initial blog post it was late at night and some stuff had already been stated in green that made me a bit more understanding of your intentions. But the more I read here, the more I think about what you've said - the more p*ssed off I get about what you've done here today.
You guys just keep taking what was once a very excellent concept and an excellent group of like-minded developers who interacted regularly in the game with the player base and turned it into CCP vs. Players on everything in the past couple years. It all started when you turned a deaf ear to us and it has continued and continued and continued. I want to discuss the potential a commercial license might have, but I can't have a discussion because nobody at CCP is talkin'. What, you won't touch the third rail you installed today? :X
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Dak Hallow
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:10:00 -
[1087]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread. [stuff] It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API). [stuff] As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
For the first and last statement. Thanks for your proactive concern with the news of this spanning 35+pages. Just make sure you don't patronize us as a community. The benefit of the doubt should be and is given, but if you're going to listen, listen.
As a business owner, I can completely understand wanting to control a little bit of the brand that's out there. Having a system in which developers CAN make money for their efforts is a nice gesture. As updated notes in the devblog have asserted that possibly accepting ISK donations would exempt you from the yearly fee, this is a nice touch. If I created an app for EVE, and I could then receive isk for it to do whatever, that would incentivise me. It's essentially paying me $15 a month for developing the program/app/etc. That won't totally cover costs in all cases, but this is much better than "We're charging everyone who's paying out their own time and money just to make a free product."
Originally by: Gurgeh Murat
[stuff] How many people would have quit eve fairly early on if their capsuleer career hadnt been aided by evemon, or evehq, or eft. Never mind the more esoteric apps like mentat. How many? 1000? 10000? [more stuff]
Honestly these Apps (specifically EVEMon and EFT for me) are what kept me in the game. The expansiveness of EVE is fantastic. The sheer number of calculations and related programming needed to come up with all the things like turret tracking down to explosion velocity is staggering and impressive. Keep in mind: I do know people that I've tried to get into the game who won't touch EVE because they're so "lost" on all the millions of different options (what makes EVE the better MMO, imo). Things like EFT and EVEMon should have been in game resources from VERY early on.
I started this game without EVEMon and EFT and was so overwhelmed by the choices that I had quit. I found EFT and subsequently EVEMon and began playing again, but only because I could organize and plan. I had all sorts of skill points in the wrong spots for even flying a Frigate. I had invested the precious little isk you start out with in crap that wasn't going to help me. I harbor no ill notions about that as I do actually create an income now, but that was after I had quit wasting a couple million isk on poor ship fittings and insufficient characters who were "lost" sp-wise.
All this information to say, don't cut the legs out from under vital programs that keep this game playable. I don't think you could jump in and keep all the information and choices straight without some 3rd party apps/programs and those do cost the developers money. However, I do understand licensing. One could make a business out of the soliciting of vital information EVE needs that is _not provided_ in-game. I understand that you lawfully can't make money off the intellectual property of other people. I however would loathe paying for a vital service like EVEMon/EVEHQ, EFT, and perhaps others. Charging ISK for your apps doesn't seem outlandish (for those who want to charge).
Thanks to the devs for Eve-Central, Battleclinic, EVEMon, EVEHQ, and EFT (the only ones Ive used). Excellent programs/sites. Thanks for making them free to all. The information is greatly appreciated.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:12:00 -
[1088]
Maybe the group that though up "Real ID + Forum = AWESOME" got hired up by CCP???
Also...
Originally by: Mechanoid Kryten
Originally by: Dyner
[...]
I was there. I assure you it was all about an unspecified fee to allow capsuleer to exist despite iphone app store charg3e breaking eula. They took that good idea and extended it to every 3rd party app even that is solicing voluntary donations. Believe me I had no idea it can get so ugly from adding an option to iphone devs to taking away my coding instead of mining gaming style. And here I was worries all this time th ey would break mining to make it more like wow where u can't afk to code ...and they broke coding instead. Link: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528607&page=35#1030
Ya know, if this whole thing is the result of the Apple App Market...I've found (yet another) reason to call Apple a 'PIECE OF ****'. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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TheCatholic
Caldari The Dark Space Initiative Revival Of The Talocan Empire
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:13:00 -
[1089]
I have a little bit of constructive criticism to offer.
For what its worth, there will be 4 classes of 3rd party developers created when this goes into effect. The first class will be the developer that will do business with Apple, Android, etc. They will pay the $99 to be allowed to turn a nice income for themselves and give us some apps for our mobile devices and Macs that we have so sorely been missing. Personally, these people haven't been the bulk of the QQing in this thread so they are probably pretty happy that if they make a $1.99 app, and they get 1000 downloads, the cake won't be a lie. I'd be pretty happy.
The second class will be the developer that asks for ISK donations for the privilege of using their applications. These guys represent the bulk of the QQing as this class is by far, the trickiest of all. The ISK donations have a very real monetary value. I don't think I need to remind folks that approximately 400,000 ISK is equivalent to $15. These developers also represent the largest developer-base in the game. But the ISK donations remain in-game and are used to re-sub, while the cost savings to the developer is applied to their web hosting needs. They profit, but it all stays in-game.
The third class of developer will be the kid that creates a website, or a fansite, with a Shattered Crystal ad, or a Battle Clinic ad, that provides them with a few pennies if someone purchases game time when users click the link. Although this developer, technically, would be commercial, it in no way matches the first class, yet would be subject to the same $99. Which brings up another point; If a kid is using the fan kit, which requires strict adherence to CCP TOS anyway, aren't they already bound by a license, sort of speak? I say this because my son set up a fansite, using Incursion, but just recently linked Shattered Crystal. I really can't justify spending $99 on a fan site every year just because he made have made a profit of 10 cents.
The forth class will simply be the fansite that asks for nothing and therefore is non-commercial.
I think that a well thought out tier system should be set up so as to not alienate any of the development community that has been so active and helpful. Ninety-Nine dollars should be the VERY top tier in the model, as all of the other tiers will just be scrapping by. Lumping the first three classes into the same payment model just doesn't make sense. You could create a professional license, standard license, amateur license and non-commercial license.
That's my 2-cents.
Long Live The Caldari!
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Darkenrahn
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:19:00 -
[1090]
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Arista Shahni
Amarr Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:20:00 -
[1091]
I'm 37 pages late and confused, its reached tl;dr (save the last 2 pages)
If I'm to get this right, it's:
We released an API key that spits out information for years... now you get to pay for the privelege of using it?
:( I need a "Person who NEEDS those damned tools to play EVE" version of this nightmare.
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LightMeUpJohnny
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:20:00 -
[1092]
And CCP wonder why they've been getting DDoS attacks.
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Kraschyn Thek'athor
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:27:00 -
[1093]
Funniest part... under German law this is all void. If you charge real money for intellectual property rights, people have the right to make real money with it. Since ISK is no real currency. CCP will loose in german courts with this. Not a lawyer myself, but as far as my knowledge as an web politician in the german Green party goes... And CCP can write whatever they want in their company rules, german people with an computer on german territory = german law. Since Iceland has a lot of EU-Iceland law contracts, this could become even funnier...
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:31:00 -
[1094]
Originally by: LightMeUpJohnny And CCP wonder why they've been getting DDoS attacks.
If that's the reason....what a freaking waste of time.
Better Option:
Boycott EVE Online for 3months AFTER your sub runs out. Guarantee you they'll do what every the community wants then....$15 a month of which ~$9 go to expenses; imagine how fast those expenses would pill up just for 3months of no income. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Randal Eirikr
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:31:00 -
[1095]
Thank god, an addendum:
- Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
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BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:36:00 -
[1096]
I'm sure it's been posted, but in case someone missed it, here is the EN24 write up, I'll quote some select parts, again, I'm sure it's been posted, but I want to draw attention to what I think are great ways to express the eve players sentiments.
Originally by: "EN24" Paying for the privilege of doing CCPÆs job A good proof of this point would be WollariÆs Dotlan EveMap service, who we congratulate on the nativity of his first born (*cheers*), the service dating back the old days of eve is nothing short of a geniusÆ work, unrivaled by any other web-app, written for free and used daily by two thirds of the active Eve community who is always on the need for the intel thatÆs readily available yet un-processed by any CCP first party app. Eve-Kill is another excellent example of a site made out of the comunal need to see a verified and neutral kill-board, something that after almost 8 years into EVE, CCP havenÆt been arsed to run of their on, let alone code a more efficient kill-board. Even this very site you are reading is the result of CCPÆs inability to run a proper player run news service, yet now CCP intents us developers to pay a royalty for working out the community needs, to be honest am not surprised and I couldnÆt expect less from a company like CCP.
Originally by: "Wolari û Dotlan.net" About the 99$ thing: A commercial license so people can actually charge RL money for apps, mobile apps (0,99$ on iphones, etc) or premium services makes perfectly sense. It would provide a clear and clean guideline how people can make money. I donÆt like the idea to force people to pay the 99$ license fee if theyÆre providing a free service to the community and getting money to optional and no service related donations or advertising, and of course à apps and services for ingame concurrency (money that CCP already has) shouldnÆt require a commercial license either. Having a license for RL money apps, subscriptions and services is a great start that will bring light the currently dark zone. Everything else should stay as it is currently, So yes for payment apps but no for free services. A commercial license from CCP that allows people to charge money would help, the license is good, but forcing that every community site has to pay the license fee has nothing to do with community anymore. Wolari û Dotlan.net
And don't miss Chribba's stance on all this...
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1528607&page=6#176
Originally by: Chribba
[...SNIP...] I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
[...SNIP...]
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
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Bombardier McJones
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:43:00 -
[1097]
Seriously CCP you guys remind me off Scrooge McDuck, wanting to squeeze a buck out off everything
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:46:00 -
[1098]
Originally by: Randal Eirikr Thank god, an addendum:
- Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
Define 'non-commerical' (rhetorical). It's basically 'not-for-profit'...um...who here (devs) want to submit CERTIFIED (aka Accountant Signed) financial spreadsheets that prove you didn't make a god damn dime off your app? I do 'limited' grant requests and the forms always want to know the money trail. Where it's going, who's getting it, and most importantly WHAT WILL YOU DO IF YOU MADE MORE THAN YOU SPENT.
PS: Take a guess at how many apps will be 'commercial' with that above clause (between -0 and 0 would be my guess); I know I sure wouldn't claim to be commercial-anything if it would cost me $99/month,year,...century ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:46:00 -
[1099]
Originally by: Randal Eirikr Thank god, an addendum:
- Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license
Too little too late.
Also, how do you define "non-commercial"? Will Chribba have to pay because he takes Donations? Since Plex are comparable to Isk this means Isk has RL value (One Plex = 15$ after all), so Isk can be counted as commercial since Isk donations are paying for your subscription.
In any case, the very fact they thought of this in the first place shows they do not deserve any support whatsover.
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Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:56:00 -
[1100]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
OMFG!!!!! CCP listened to something... Oh wait what about these threads:
Monacles or Death... 53 pages of PASSION Vote Thread from Assembly Hall. 47 pages of PASSION Make CQ Optional..6 pages of PASSION
As I type this there are 11 other threads relating to Monetizing your Apps, MT and CQ on the first page of the General Discussion forums alone. I am sure there is plenty of PASSION in those threads too. How about you listen to the folks in those threads as well?????
" As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you." I am sorry but I have to call BS on this. If our feedback was important to CCP you would acknowledge us when we give you the FEEDBACK you have asked for in your very own dev blog FEEDBACK threads instead of posting in BS threads about Sax in Stations and making posts about how excited you are that your PS3 is on the way....... Crap post while concerns are being posted in the Monacles Thread and left unanswered
Get your act together and live up to your words!
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Arista Shahni
Amarr Murasaki Mining and Manufacturing
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Posted - 2011.06.16 23:57:00 -
[1101]
Declare yourself a contract worker. For every hour you work on the app (rounded to the the nearest hour) charge yourself $250USD. Heck, even something as low as $25 works, because...
Last my group checked on the EVE market a Plex is roughly 466,000isk an hour of gametime. (I wont explain why we calculated this out, but I need mention it involved breasts somehow.) As 466,000ISK /= $250USD an hour, or even $25/hr, unless you're making a redonkulous amount of ISK on a website, you can not make more than you offically are 'spending' in manhours being 'on call' for its consistent service, much less coding it.
ie... this is rediculous... :( If it's to catch 99c iPod apps, sure. But find a GOOD way to get this to leave the people who are literally donating their time and maybe getting a fraction of that back in what amounts to 'monetary value' alone.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:00:00 -
[1102]
dis+cus+sion noun \di-ˈskə-shən\
Definition of DISCUSSION
1 : consideration of a question in open and usually informal debate 2 : a formal treatment of a topic in speech or writing
Examples of DISCUSSION
The class was involved in a heated discussion about politics. I hope to have a discussion with them about the matter soon. After much discussion of the plan, the idea was rejected entirely. During the period under discussion, the town grew in size. The smoking ban is a major topic of discussion these days. The article is an in-depth discussion of his theories. The first chapter includes a discussion of childcare issues.
Synonyms: argument, argumentation, argy-bargy [chiefly British], back-and-forth, colloquy, confab, confabulation, conference, consult, consultation, council, counsel, debate, deliberation, dialogue (also dialog), give-and-take, palaver, parley, talk
Aside from perhaps some argy-bargy <g>, I haven't seen much from CCP in the way of 'discussion' here. Quit telling us you want a discussion. You don't want a discussion. If you did, Atlas would be back by now having said discussion - not letting this turn into a threadnaught of ****ed off developers. You asked for the discussion this time, so discuss. Or once again we can only assume that you're not listening.
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Leil Ren'Do
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:04:00 -
[1103]
You ****ing ****ing ******s. Annoying your community with this bull**** seemed like a good idea to you?
You're ****ing amateurs. 3rd party apps is what keeping eve alive and what is paying your bills.
And no I can't understand your concern with ip protection because your ip is one big steamy pile of ****.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:15:00 -
[1104]
Originally by: Arista Shahni If it's to catch 99c iPod apps, sure.
Pretty sure...a court-ordered demand to see the account info of said uploader to the Apple Store would fix that. After all, if Apple refused they would be assisting in illegal activity.
----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:35:00 -
[1105]
Originally by: BeanBagKing I'm sure it's been posted, but in case someone missed it, here is the EN24 write up,
Hot news:
CCP wants to tax Dotlan.
but
EvE official website instead of making their own costly infrastructure has delegated on Dotlan the display of the sovereignty maps.
Example:
Link
This means they are consuming Dotlan service to avoid coding a map by themselves but still going to impose Dotlan a tax.
Funky, eh?
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Adrian Schultze
Blood Money Inc. The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:39:00 -
[1106]
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
This.
The man is more than right....
Does the "friendship" with Sony has a bad influence now....... would be no wonder, would not be the first MMO sony had broken by ****ing the community off.... ___________
Jammers are hot, be my spear, i am your shield! |
Darik Jita
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Posted - 2011.06.17 00:55:00 -
[1107]
If I may sum up the community response so far: "**** you. Strong letter to follow."
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Velicitia
Open Designs
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Posted - 2011.06.17 01:06:00 -
[1108]
Originally by: TheCatholic (stuff) I don't think I need to remind folks that approximately 400,000 ISK is equivalent to $15. (more stuff)
WTB 400k PLEX!!!!
(you're off by a factor of 100 there mate.)
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.17 01:14:00 -
[1109]
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: TheCatholic (stuff) I don't think I need to remind folks that approximately 400,000 ISK is equivalent to $15. (more stuff)
WTB 400k PLEX!!!!
(you're off by a factor of 100 there mate.)
Um..Gulfonodi system has 'em for as low as 396k isk...where the hell you buyin? :P ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Quawr
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 01:19:00 -
[1110]
If this goes forward, I will have to seriously think about closing 1 if not all of my accounts. EVE should be happy that people have done there work for them as most fo the sites that i go to should be available from CCP tho they are not. Way to go morons.
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Samuel Miner
Caldari Perilous Expedition
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Posted - 2011.06.17 01:28:00 -
[1111]
"This project is not about CCP making money. Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet. $99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service."
tl;dr 37 pages of posts
Anyway, really? Read that and stop and think about it a bit. Come on guys. The money doesn't matter, nor even the amount... but actually it does.
If this is barely a blip on your balance sheet then why not make it free? And be cool again? Like from 2003-2005.
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amarri victari
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Posted - 2011.06.17 01:31:00 -
[1112]
Originally by: Quawr If this goes forward, I will have to seriously think about closing 1 if not all of my accounts. EVE should be happy that people have done there work for them as most fo the sites that i go to should be available from CCP tho they are not. Way to go morons.
looks like someone else had the same idea on EN24 (guy is a complete **** (excuse me for calling you a male chicken i cant beleive that i can say lady chicken but not ****)), but it made me smile:
Quote: CONFRIMIGN YOU MUST DO IT
ALSO I DO SAME THINKS. I NOW PLAY MMMORPG CALLE LIFE IT IS SO FULL OF ACTIONS.
ABOUT LIF: IT HAF 6.7 BIL (YES BIL) SUBSCRIPERS IT HAF PERSISTENT AND SINGLE SHARD WORLD IT HAF NO TEST SERVER - YOU LERN HARD OR FAIL HARD IT HAF NO MONTHLY FEE IT HAF REAL GIRLS IT HAF MICROTRANSACTION FOR ANYTHING YOU COULD WANT IT HAF NO GTC RMT IS LEGAL AND YOU CAN MAK MANY MANY MONEYS IT HAF SANDBOX WHAT MAKE EVE SANDBOX LOOK LIKES A TRAY FOR KITTEN LITTER!
ONLINE DOWNSIED TO GAME LIF IS IT HAF VERY VERY POOR COMUNNITY.
ALSO I FIND IT SHAME THAT CCCP DO TRY TO PUNISH THEIR COMUNNITY - THIS IS PROPABLY THE BEST THINGS THEY ACTUALL HAF, BUT THEY FIND IT SO HARD COS THEY CANOT OWN THIS COMUNNITY AND IT IS FREE TO THING FOR ITSELFS.
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Chitsa Jason
Caldari Bite me inc. Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.17 01:36:00 -
[1113]
Looks like the EvE Chatter already has a reaction at: http://evechatter.com/t/EVECH/index.php/topic,6849.0.html
I am speaking on behalf of my entire alliance: Dont freaking do it, or else we will be very unhappy.
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Gallic IronBorne
Caldari Pack Mule Courier Service Trade Wind Commodities
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Posted - 2011.06.17 02:44:00 -
[1114]
WOW are you people at CCP smoking crack ???? Stick to beer and other liquor it what allows your programing to work ..... drugs are bad .... please do not do this you will screw yourselves here are the epic fails this year so far
**** ups so far this year
1. ccp nerfs 0.0 2. CCP releases half assed expansions 3. CCP wants 99.00 bucks a year to advertise there game ... the list seems to be growing ...come on put the crack pipes down and go to rehab.
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Dracoliche
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2011.06.17 03:22:00 -
[1115]
^ Almost all of this.
GREAT NEWS FOR EVERYONE, Not.
That's why everyone is so happy right?
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Moizo
Abh Empire Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.06.17 03:36:00 -
[1116]
Isn't the whole point of making something $99,- to let people think its not actually as much as $100,- when it kinda is? Sounds like it was thought up as a commercial thing to me...
With all the third party sites that make this game playable going down, is ccp planning something to uhm..
* Remedy the inability to plot a course for a Jump-capable ship ingame. * Let a player view market data from regions other then its current one. * Let a player see how far he has to go for a certain skill. * Let a player calculate build costs. * Let a player use something other then the ingame notepad to figure out a good fit... * And all those other things that wont be possible if this gets trough...
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Levaria
Gallente Incertae Sedis Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.06.17 03:43:00 -
[1117]
First the Aurum shannanigans and now this... CCP where do you get your special kool-aid and how much of it have you drank? Good idea fairy is abound I see. This is a insult to a gaming community that spends its own time and efforts plugging the gaping holes that you leave behind as developers, there is a way to license IP. But ****ing all over your user base and 3rd party dev base is just plain wrong. ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~
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Observer One
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Posted - 2011.06.17 03:46:00 -
[1118]
was asked by eve-central.com to protest, so here is my protest 15Ç per month per account isn't enough already, you want go gain $ like blizzard, but don't construct a harsh world with evil "wardec", "pirates" and "i can field more titans, i win by default" and lie people that support your ebil game with their own brain and time in the face - 0.01$ ... would be enough for your ID-whatsoever
it seems you need some extra cash urgently, but then just use the money from "fund raise for ..." for whatever you need, nobody will ever notice --- OOOPSS! - blind bull's eye?!
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Yutaka Kaikei
Caldari Pack Mule Courier Service
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Posted - 2011.06.17 03:58:00 -
[1119]
Originally by: "EULA: 10,c:Specific Restrictions" You may not copy, distribute, rent, lease, loan, modify or create derivative works of, adapt, translate, perform, display, sublicense or transfer any information accessible through the System, including without limitation, any part of the Game Content or User Content, or any item, object or character in your Account, except that, solely to the extent permitted by the System, you may modify certain Game Content and User Content only for your own purposes in playing the Game.
Unless I'm particularly mistaken, this clause prevents anybody using the API for ANY purpose, let alone the generation of income. Seems to me that the ability to take advantage of the XML output CCP provides is more on the basis of a 'gift', however I would argue that their making this information available (in breach of their own EULA) would void that section of the EULA. Feedback would be nice.
Originally by: "Terms of Service: Second end clause" THESE RULES MAY BE REVISED AT ANY TIME. IT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO REVIEW THEM OCCASIONALLY TO ENSURE THAT YOU ARE IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE RULES, POLICIES AND AGREEMENTS DESIGNATED BY CCP.
If they change the ToS, they don't even have to tell us. If they change the EULA, it'll come up as a clickwrap agreement at the load of the game. There is no way in which they would make an amendment and a person would not be bound by it... so bear in mind people that we're responsible for keeping an eye on things ourselves.
I have no issue with monetization, particularly where it's valid and has been simply overlooked... But there is no way to rationalise the creation of a game system with a fundament of in-game player-initiated services, and then to apply a real-world financial penalty to such services. Whoever drafted this policy has let their zeal get the better of them. You do not charge people a fee to take advantage of a system for which they already pay. You simply do not.
If people make money off your Intellectual Property, by all means take a piece of the pie. I'm a capitalist and it's a monetaristic world, and that's not just your option - it's your entitlement. However - I am not paying to advertise in-game services (for ISK) through a website which is not owned by CCP. Period. I would rather cancel my subscription, and I guarantee CCP will lose a damn sight more than 99 euros when I take my capitalist vote back to blizzard. |
Nak hak
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Posted - 2011.06.17 04:23:00 -
[1120]
Bad idea.
"You have to be trusted by the people that you lie to, So that when they turn their backs on you, You'll get the chance to put the knife in."
Now, I can't get this damn song out for my mind.
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Viktor Del'Grande
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Posted - 2011.06.17 04:30:00 -
[1121]
Dear "CCP BizDev Team",
have you seen your trailer A future vision? No ...
"BizDevTeam" : Take look at the it. Espescilly at the end. "Quote: Your choice always comes back around."
I play this game since 2005 without disruption of my subscription and this is the awfulest idea ccp ever had. The second worst idea was the devblog about nerving the carriers.
*shackes head*
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War Bear
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.06.17 04:35:00 -
[1122]
Christ on a pogo stick CCP never ceases to amaze me. You have annoyed Chribba. That makes me an angry bear. Knock it off already ffs.
Repent, the end is extremely f'ing nigh. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Legion RONA Directorate
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Posted - 2011.06.17 05:17:00 -
[1123]
Here is a counter proposal.
We keep our sites up, we put your banners up and talk about how cool eve is, and you dont charge us anything.
Also, charging Chribba for his services or any of his sites, is a #@%@#% $^@#^@#$%$#@%@%$ (more explitives than pulp fiction here) bad idea.
people like
eve -central eve survival guild eve files eve files eve search eve offline eve geek battle clinic eve kill
ARE 100% crucial to eve's well being. Charging them 100 bucks a year to DO YOUR JOB is just stupid. YOU as a company should be supporting them by paying for their sites fees, giving them free banners, hell pay them in plexes for all the hard work they do.
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Callidus Dux
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.17 05:22:00 -
[1124]
Hello CCP,
What exact you are doing here? You announce a dovblog and then you are amazed that NO ONE!!!! likes your more than dumb ideas? Do not fool your customer. Such a step ist well deliberated. I do not believe that you are so dumb as you do now. I think you try to gamble the player base and now you are surprised that no one likes this s h i t and you got so an hard response. Rightly!
You even add insult to injury by comments like:
What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
Thats a totaly lie! There was nothing to read about a draft! There was absolut NO [!!!!!!!] room for misunderstandings. You clearly said: We want money because other people uses our API. Nothing more and nothing less. I am very upset that you try to fool your loyal customer in such a way. If no one would say: CCP STop this thing and some statements with asshats, YOU would 100% take over all the little misunderstanings 1:1 !
I play EVE since 2008. In this time I got only ONE questionary from CCP. But there were no elementary questions like: What would YOU like to change. There were such useless questions like: Play you the german client? Is the translation good; Have we shiny buttons that you like? ... I do not do the work for CCP anymore. No help in the german HILFE, no bug reports because too much indiots ignores you or dont want to apprehend your problem. And soon? No new tools like EVEmon? Thats the way CCP goes. Please make an devblog in which way EVE should go in 5 years. BUT NOT ONLY THE SHINY THINGS! I want to know all! new taxes for whatelse; "features" I can buy with RL money and all the other little misunderstandings you would like to present as an innovation.
I do not believe Mr. Zulu who plays as this whole **** is an misunderstanding. WTF? I do not believe CCP anymore.
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DraconisAlpha
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Posted - 2011.06.17 05:35:00 -
[1125]
Originally by: darmwand Since our "feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to" you, this:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Originally by: Clambumper June I did read the full 32 pages, but in a word this is completely F'd. Let me see, RL people pay a subscription fee to play EVE. They love the game so much they create apps to make the game both more fun internally and externally. Further locking your subscribers to their addiction. Now you want to charge people the equivalent of almost 7 months of subscription fees so they can publish their apps.
I realize Iceland economy sucks and you are the biggest thing since Leif Erikson put foot on that island, but give me and the rest a break. There has to be a reason you are starting after 8 years to charge for 3rd Party Developments. Either you have become as greedy as WOW or perhaps you are reduce your player base with people reducing accounts and/or rage quitting due to insult.
I honestly think it is the first of the two options above. CCP has determined that they can now make profit off of other peoples work. Bad idea, not good for business. GL
Originally by: darmwand Since our "feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to" you, this:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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xwolfi
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 05:37:00 -
[1126]
Never thought I would be disappointed by CCP one day, now it's done :(
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Edon
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
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Posted - 2011.06.17 05:38:00 -
[1127]
Judas, do you really need that 30 pieces of silver ?
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Montevius Williams
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.17 06:12:00 -
[1128]
Hey CCP
Why dont you do what WoW does and incorporate some of the ideas from the community into the game. For example, make a skill training planer in game, or make an EFT in game. This would eliminate the need to download the mods in the first place.
WoW does this all the time with their game..If anyone here played WoW, Im sure you remember the quest helper mod. Then Im sure you remember when WoW "borrowed" the idea and put it in their game. And the community was happy becasue it one less mod they had to install.
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Scorson
Aideron Robotics The Aideron Collective
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Posted - 2011.06.17 06:15:00 -
[1129]
In Argentina its really hard to pay plex with cash, so I started playing with the condition of work for pay them with isk.. If free programs that fills the holes that CCP should be done, pass to be paid, I won't buy those so my experience will be half it is and should. So CCP instead of charge anothers who do their job cause ccp didn't, they should develop those programs inside game first.
sorry my english
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QT McWhiskers
EdgeGamers Situation Normal.
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Posted - 2011.06.17 06:43:00 -
[1130]
Ok so I have been rolling this around in my head for a while now, and I can see some of your point. But only a small part. I can understand charging a small fee for sites that make money... however you went too far.
Every single MMO out there has in their TOS a clause about RMT, and EVE is not different.
You may not market, sell, advertise, promote, solicit or otherwise arrange for the exchange or transfer of items in the game or other game services unless it is for in-game sales of in-game services or items.
You said it right there. You can not charge RL currencies for in game money. In game items and services have no real world value. In fact you made this abundantly clear by making PLEX destroyable. When its etc, it has value, when its plex, its worthless in real world terms.
But see, now that you are going to charge for sites that make in game money and no real world value. You are now LEGITIMIZING every single RMT organization in eve online, because you are putting a real world value on isk. You are breaking your own EULA and TOS. Did you seriously not think this through?
As for charging for donations, that is actually one you cant enfore. Ok so I take the donation off of my website... in its place I link you to my twitter account where my headline is. "If you would like to support my work please donate here (link)." Now there is no donation on my website so you cant charge me. But I am still getting donations. Now I would like to point out that I am not telling everyone to do this, I am just listing one of the hundreds of gray areas that get around this.
Another thing on the donations. My gaming clan is MUCH more than just eve. We are a multi game community that had many servers. Will you charge our gaming community the 99 dollars because we ask for donation to keep our FPS servers up and running? Will you charge us for the eve online ads we have running?
You left WAY too many unanswered questions. You cant come out with a small dev blog and list general points like that. You need to come up with a FULL contract and make the contract available for all to read to take care of all of the unanswered questions before they happen.
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Louis Vitton
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.06.17 07:02:00 -
[1131]
I am here to support all the App developers out there who run apps and website. I think they should not be force to pay fees due to CCP's war on RMT.
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Yutaka Kaikei
Caldari Pack Mule Courier Service
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Posted - 2011.06.17 07:14:00 -
[1132]
Originally by: QT McWhiskers But see, now that you are going to charge for sites that make in game money and no real world value. You are now LEGITIMIZING every single RMT organization in eve online, because you are putting a real world value on isk. You are breaking your own EULA and TOS. Did you seriously not think this through?
Neither the TOS nor the EULA are legally binding to CCP, as they are not subscribers. They are one-way agreements to which we are accountable, and they are responsible for enforcement. What CCP is actually talking about doing here, is modifying their TOS and EULA to include a new accountability for end-users whereby we must submit to the charges, and may have our subscriptions revoked in the usual way (including game time not being refunded) if we fail to comply.
There is a theoretical debate whether CCP encouraging actions in breach of the TOS or EULA would invalidate the enforcability of the related sections of the agreements, but there is nothing in there which controls the actions CCP are allowed to make.
Also note that the privision is in there to allow CCP to make amendments to their TOS and EULA, without advance notice or a requirement to inform us of the changes. I'm not saying they will, but this is the black and white of what we have already agreed to.
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Keegan Teutorix
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Posted - 2011.06.17 07:19:00 -
[1133]
Edited by: Keegan Teutorix on 17/06/2011 07:20:48 I'm also here just to say a huge Thank You to all the third party devs out there who make Eve playable. I never really though about how many of the tools I use nearly every time I sign on to Eve were created without any help at all from CCP. The other day I wanted to try out a new ship, so I went to BattleClinic to look up fits for an idea how to fit it, then I pulled up EFT to play with the fits until I had something to my liking. I used EveMon to figure out how long it would take to train the few missing skills I didn't have, and then I pulled up eve-central and jeveassests to figure out how much the whole venture was going to cost me. And finally I logged into Eve.
So to all the people out there who put in hours or days or months or years of their own time into collecting the information, coding the applications, and producing the guides and videos that have made my experience in Eve about the people, the events, and the stories and not the numbers, my sincerest thanks, you guys are amazing.
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coolzero
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.17 07:54:00 -
[1134]
i dont write apps for eve(programming languages are all mumbojumbo to me) but this is a baad idea.
if every app maker and websites about eve would unplug till this licence thing gets resolved(so no more cribba(bless thy name) services..no more dolan..no more battleclinic.
i think CCP will start screaming like little girlies in their offices.
Jack of all trades, master of none...
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Lucifer Lollipop
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 07:56:00 -
[1135]
"$99 is the lowest that we estimated that we could reasonably go and still justify the cost of the service." - from here http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=901
Identifying what the service is: Ability to charge money for 3rd party apps. Abiliy to put "licensed application for EVE" with the app or service.
All apps and services today are funded or supported by other means like adds or ISK-donations. Now you are making that cost money. So basically you are adding the possibility to charge money directly and removing A LOT MORE POSSIBILITIES that WERE WORKING ALREADY. Since you are changing something that already works to something everyone hates and doesn't seem to work you must be doing it to make money. What other reason could there be? This is not a service for the app-developers because they don't want it.
This is not a new service. This is a charge.
I know trying to talk a company out of making something worse but making a few moneys is like discussing something with an idiot but please AT LEAST ADMIT THAT YOU ARE DOING THIS TO MAKE MONEY - YOU'RE DOING THIS FOR NOTHING AND MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE.
Read the thread. We don't want this.
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Stina Sorkslyngel
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Posted - 2011.06.17 07:59:00 -
[1136]
Show me how much this service would cost and EXACTLY where the money goes. If it's 99$ then fine you weren't lying. Then show me a independent survey proving the players and the app-developers want this, then fine you weren't doing it only to make money.
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Florian Fagerfet
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:01:00 -
[1137]
CCP, you are stupid. Please don't get kids.
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amidaros veleta
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:03:00 -
[1138]
Hi all,
All this will do is make the everyday eve players pay more.
3rd party program providers will just put a price on thier apps to counter the fee they are being charged.
i honestly think that removing isk donations from the charged list would be wise. anyone charging rl money for it can then be slapped with the 99 buck fee
Amidaros Out!
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Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:11:00 -
[1139]
CCP: If I were to ask an Icelandic friend to acquire and translate the latest CCP financial info, would I find that CCP is running at a loss?
The reason I ask this is because the latest few scams schemes (MT/Aurum - ships for munni, 99 dollah, yo) from CCP increasingly give me the impression that CCP is in desperate need for cash money.
I could of course be wrong, and CCP could just be money grabbing asshats with no vision beyond the next quarterly financials like a great many companies out there, but with the many givens on what we know about CCP - terrible salaries, no in-house training, enormous amounts of invested and liquid cash spent on developing as-yet return-free projects like Dust and WoD over the past few years, EVE playerbase stagnating - it makes a certain amount of sense to assume that RL dollah is indeed in short supply in Reykjavik.
Thus, I ask myself if CCP has not gotten itself caught in a vicious circle where there is a shortage of development resources to improve the broken aspects of CCP's premier title, EVE online, due to a pressing need to complete the other titles due to contractual obligations with Sony and others etc.
The ironic thing, in my view, is that most of CCP's most loyal customers, those who have been playing EVE for years, are its best marketing tools and that CCP's actions over the past year or two have been actively driving them away, thus leading to another vicious circle of ever tightening belts and increasingly desperate attempts to compensate the financial losses.
CCP: Have you ever considered that the remedy might be far simpler than you imagine?: 1. Listen carefully to your customers' complaints and suggestions (Most players I know have the feeling that CCP is extremely alienated from the playerbase and more interested in the hare-brained schemes of certain privileged developers - Hi Torfi - than its customers). 2. Fix the most common broken things in EVE itself (This, I think, CCP actually started doing after the :18months: fiasco last year, but it needs to be scaled and sped up to be viewed as more than a token, otherwise it'll be too little, too late) 3. Lastly, but possibly most importantly, CCP needs to vastly improve internal and external communications (This current 99 dollah disaster could have been avoided if CCP had run it by the CSM first, but even running it by more people within CCP itself, aka realising the potential controversy and thus stating explicitly that the idea is a draft would have dampened the potential fallout)
CCP has done its brand an enormous amount of damage over the past couple of years and has started losing many of its most loyal customers as a result of broken trust and no amount of laughable claims like those made by Torfi in an interview over Dust that EVE has over 400'000 active players will change that.
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Sellendis
Caldari The Ares project
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:16:00 -
[1140]
Lets get started...
Quote: You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Now thats out of the way....WTF? WTF are you people doing CCP? Funding your soon to be FAIL projects? Over our backs? 99$ for what? Do you have any, ANY ideas how much apps like EFT and EveMon help your players? Since you at CCP cant be bothered to make a fitting tool worth a crap. How about a app like EveMon? Did you make one? Hell no, so let us charge people that bust their asses to make FREE apps to help your game. Chribbas services? Dotlan? Nameless others? Slapping them in the face and then presenting 99$ bill when they promote eve for YEARS. If CCP had any of this services to offer for free, and 3rd party devs charged money for their own versions, i could understand (and it is a big IF) charging a license to them.
Fail after fail in gameplay changes, ignoring bug reports on test server for weeks and bugs going to TQ anyway is epic fail, but i guess you are used to it. Now comes damage control, couse, lets face it, we are stupid and we didn't understand you. Yeah, right.
You have players devote their playing time to hunt for bugs you made, and players pay to do your work. Players report bots and devote their time to help you, and again they do your jobs, jobs you are paid for. 3rd party developers make free apps to help people play your game, so they stay with the game longer and pay more subs, and you charge them?
The community should tell you to **** off next time you ask for mass testing on Sisi. You want our help to find bugs? F you, pay us. You want us to hunt bots for you? F you, pay us. Other MMOS hire people for bug/beta testing. They hire people to hunt for bots. And here you charge your own customers to do your job. And in the end, you dont do it at all.
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Iajj
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:24:00 -
[1141]
Problem solved:
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betty drunkenlord
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:27:00 -
[1142]
Edited by: betty drunkenlord on 17/06/2011 08:28:54 Dear CCP,
What about a counter idea - pay 99USD a year to people who created and run websites that add functionality to your game. They have proved to be adding significant value to your game because of large visitors numbers. Dotlan, evenews24, evemon, eft and others saved you thousands or not millions of USD by not having to hire developers and pay them to create and maintain the functionality that is provided by those sites. 99USD is not much but should be enough to cover at least some of their server maintenance costs.
Seriously, your proposal is at least insulting to the community and people who spent many hours essentially for free doing stuff that enhanced your game and saved you lots of money. Who do you think your player base is - stupid addicted kids who eat propaganda from your spoon?
I'm seriously ****ed off at you. No CCP you cannot haz my stuff.
- bd
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Tatiana Nixx
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:33:00 -
[1143]
Edited by: Tatiana Nixx on 17/06/2011 08:33:45
Originally by: betty drunkenlord Edited by: betty drunkenlord on 17/06/2011 08:28:54 Dear CCP,
What about a counter idea - pay 99USD a year to people who created and run websites that add functionality to your game. They have proved to be adding significant value to your game because of large visitors numbers. Dotlan, evenews24, evemon, eft and others saved you thousands or not millions of USD by not having to hire developers and pay them to create and maintain the functionality that is provided by those sites. 99USD is not much but should be enough to cover at least some of their server maintenance costs.
Seriously, your proposal is at least insulting to the community and people who spent many hours essentially for free doing stuff that enhanced your game and saved you lots of money. Who do you think your player base is - stupid addicted kids who eat propaganda from your spoon?
I'm seriously ****ed off at you. No CCP you cannot haz my stuff.
- bd
Betty Drunkenlord for President!
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Glafri
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:39:00 -
[1144]
LET ME BOLD AND UNDERLINE THE REALLY IMPORTANT PART
Originally by: Chribba ok seriously, I've like Ctrl+A, backspace this post 5 times now, tbh I'm out of words.
I would like to know how many 3rd party developer/sites are doing it for the ****ing awesome income it generates?! Seriously, this if anything WILL kill development of sites and services.
As a creator of sites/applications/services for New Eden since well over 6 years now, I can tell you that I have never once created something with the goal to make money off it, this whole thing about needing a license to make something for the community is just ****ing ******ed! Just hearing this makes my interest/will for developing things crash.
This is not about the $99, this is about how you want to charge me because I want to do something for the community out of my free will - does that sense? Do you feel I am stealing your IP, making massive amounts of money off your IP? Then tell me straight up, don't try to bind it into some fluffy clouds and call it "great news".
Every IPO in Market Discussions will now require a license, since after all, it's donations. Corporations should get a license too, I mean having a corp tax of >0.0% could be seen as a donation to the corporation...
And yeah, I guess me and everyone else with an EVE IP tattoo will need a license, I mean, some other geek may think it's awesome and want to buy me a beer...
I'm just very sad to see this even being discussed, talk about a punch in the face. Don't get me wrong, I see your point of EVE IP, and yes I can agree that it may need to be controlled to some extent, but this is not the way. Not by far.
/c
How I missed this I have no idea. You boys done goofed and gone ****ed of Chribba.
I hope for the love of god you've not ****ed Wollari off this much.
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Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:42:00 -
[1145]
We want to know. What about CSM ? They supported this idea or not ?
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betty drunkenlord
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:44:00 -
[1146]
Originally by: betty drunkenlord Edited by: betty drunkenlord on 17/06/2011 08:28:54 Dear CCP,
What about a counter idea - pay 99USD a year to people who created and run websites that add functionality to your game. They have proved to be adding significant value to your game because of large visitors numbers. Dotlan, evenews24, evemon, eft and others saved you thousands or not millions of USD by not having to hire developers and pay them to create and maintain the functionality that is provided by those sites. 99USD is not much but should be enough to cover at least some of their server maintenance costs.
Seriously, your proposal is at least insulting to the community and people who spent many hours essentially for free doing stuff that enhanced your game and saved you lots of money. Who do you think your player base is - stupid addicted kids who eat propaganda from your spoon?
I'm seriously ****ed off at you. No CCP you cannot haz my stuff.
- bd
In case CCP employees look at replies numbers instead of actually reading them let me copy and paste this message to CCP again and again...
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Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 08:47:00 -
[1147]
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit We want to know. What about CSM ? They supported this idea or not ?
CSM never saw this draft, you'd know if you read the thread.
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Incendia Everto
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:50:00 -
[1148]
Eve is a great game.
The only downside of it, is the fact that we have to pay for every freaking thing already. We kinda accept that. CCP, you will have a horde of VERY angry subscribers, if you push this moronic bainfart through. You guys always claimed to listen to us, well..LISTEN NOW!!
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:51:00 -
[1149]
Quote:
ò CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server. ò To become a licensee, developer must enter into a commercial license agreement with CCP. The fee for a commercial license is $99, payable annually by credit card or wire transfer (for identification purposes). We do not require further payments from developer or royalties.
I cannot emphasize enough what an incredibly BAD idea this is. I want my EVEMON; and I want my EFT; and my Battleclinic. The devs of these apps have been doing the EVE community a huge favor for years, for free no less. And now you want to charge them for it!!?
I think CCP has finally gone completely mental. --
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tex sharky
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:54:00 -
[1150]
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Quote:
ò CCP will license 3rd party developers to create commercial applications and services created using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server. ò To become a licensee, developer must enter into a commercial license agreement with CCP. The fee for a commercial license is $99, payable annually by credit card or wire transfer (for identification purposes). We do not require further payments from developer or royalties.
I cannot emphasize enough what an incredibly BAD idea this is. I want my EVEMON; and I want my EFT; and my Battleclinic. The devs of these apps have been doing the EVE community a huge favor for years, for free no less. And now you want to charge them for it!!?
I think CCP has finally gone completely mental.
I thought rmting/botting is killing eve. Boy I was wrong. CCP is much closer to kill its product than actually 'bad guys'.
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Sethose Olderon
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Posted - 2011.06.17 08:55:00 -
[1151]
Edited by: Sethose Olderon on 17/06/2011 08:56:26
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development.
Do you really expect people to believe that when your planning to institute a $100 per year license fee? If you truly had not intention of profiting from third parties, you wouldn't have set that fee so high. It's greed and you very well know it. It's really sad that no one believes you or your company now. Is there no dignity or ethics left in the world today?
At one time your company was a bright light in an ever expansive sea of darkness, and now you have sold your soul for the love of money also.
I sincerely believe, Mr. Hilmar PTtursson that if you continue to drive your company in this direction, you won't have much of a customer base left.
It's your decision. Alliance Owned Stargates
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.17 09:04:00 -
[1152]
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development.
Ironically, you're actually right: you're not gonna make much money off of them. Say they are 5 major 3rd party apps (like EVEMON, EFT, Battleclinic, etc); let's be generous, and make that 10. So, you'll make a whopping $990 dollars from them a year -- which, for a business as large as CCP, is ridiculously little. So little, in fact, that it's utterly negligible.
What you DO manage, however, is to p*ss off every single one of your customers, and the devs making these apps, in the process. Way to break it, hero! --
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Arvella Kadori
Gallente Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2011.06.17 09:14:00 -
[1153]
Usually it works like that:
1. Improvement 2. ??? 3. PROFIT!
But much stuff you CCCP produced this Year is working like this:
1. Fail-"I-needz-moar-Money"-Idea 2. ??? 3. LOSING PLAYERBASE!
And if you're continue with doing those awfull Idea's there is also a fourth stage called "Dead of EVE" but maybe you turn yourself 180 degrees around and get the real CCP back wich really cares about their Playerbase!
TL;DR: CCP!! DRUGS ARE NO SOLUTION!!
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Deadly Dealer
Minmatar The Kundalini Manifest
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Posted - 2011.06.17 09:16:00 -
[1154]
CCP could have avoided so much hassle if they had just announced that they were going to issue 3rd party licences to people who wanted to develop services on mobile phones for eve, this would then be in line with the fanfest announcement regarding capsuleer.
This would then make sense as there are mechanisms for aquiring phone apps and paying for a different way of accessing Eve would appeal to some people.
However the current Dev blog announcement just sounds like a money grab by CCP from all 3rd party developers. I pay CCP to play their game, I am not going to start paying 3 rd party developers to access the computer tools necessary to play Eve, especialy as most of these tools should have been provided by CCP in the first place.
This could become the thin end of the wedge as this could result in CCP outsourcing the development of in game tools via the back door of 3 rd party programs and expecting the player base to then pay for access.
We have already seen CCP introducing MT via Aurum which breaks the whole spirit of EveÆs subscription model. I am paying you monthly in return you give free upgrades to your game. Having part of the ôfreeö upgrade be an MT store feels like I am paying you to mug me.
I just want to take this opportunity to thank all 3 rd Party programmers who make their sites available to the community. Your dedication and support is appreciated by us all and the fact that you do it is part of what makes the Eve community great.
It just seems a shame that CCP want to exploit the hard work you have done for the community by charging you $99 a year for giving us the functionality that they should have provided in the first place.
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Dograzor
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:22:00 -
[1155]
TBH if you keep this up CCP, WoW actually starts to look appealing. -
"We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value" |
darmwand
wiremaniacs
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:22:00 -
[1156]
Quote: CCP could have avoided so much hassle if they had just announced that they were going to issue 3rd party licences to people who wanted to develop services on mobile phones for eve
Huh? I don't see why the platform should matter. There are free EVE-related apps for mobile phones atm (eg. aura for Android) and damn CCP if they make them pay.
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Dray
Caldari Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.17 09:26:00 -
[1157]
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betty drunkenlord
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:28:00 -
[1158]
Originally by: Deadly Dealer
(stuff)
This could become the thin end of the wedge as this could result in CCP outsourcing the development of in game tools via the back door of 3 rd party programs and expecting the player base to then pay for access.
We have already seen CCP introducing MT via Aurum which breaks the whole spirit of EveÆs subscription model. I am paying you monthly in return you give free upgrades to your game. Having part of the ôfreeö upgrade be an MT store feels like I am paying you to mug me.
I just want to take this opportunity to thank all 3 rd Party programmers who make their sites available to the community. Your dedication and support is appreciated by us all and the fact that you do it is part of what makes the Eve community great.
It just seems a shame that CCP want to exploit the hard work you have done for the community by charging you $99 a year for giving us the functionality that they should have provided in the first place.
This. Don't mug me ccp and don't exploit our elite 3rd party devs.
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Tiger's Spirit
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:42:00 -
[1159]
Originally by: Adrie Atticus
Originally by: Tiger's Spirit We want to know. What about CSM ? They supported this idea or not ?
CSM never saw this draft, you'd know if you read the thread.
If not saw, why we have CSM ? So useless.
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Jottunn
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:43:00 -
[1160]
this is actually a good thing, will have more time for noneve stuff after it gets implemented, exactly my whole evetime more time.
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission EVE Trade Consortium
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:46:00 -
[1161]
Originally by: TheCatholic
The second class will be the developer that asks for ISK donations for the privilege of using their applications. These guys represent the bulk of the QQing as this class is by far, the trickiest of all. The ISK donations have a very real monetary value. I don't think I need to remind folks that approximately 400,000 ISK is equivalent to $15. These developers also represent the largest developer-base in the game. But the ISK donations remain in-game and are used to re-sub, while the cost savings to the developer is applied to their web hosting needs. They profit, but it all stays in-game.
First, I think you're off by a magnitude of 1000 here. I guess you meant to say 400 mil ISK are worth $15, not 400k ISK.
Second, let me throw in some numbers. I would be one of those "App is free, but of course I do accept ISK donations." Here's the exact wording I use:
Quote:
EVEWalletAware is distributed as freeware. That means, you can use this application as you see fit, free of charge. You're not obliged to pay anything for EWA. The program is provided "as is". If it doesn't work to your liking or doesn't support features you'd like to see, you're not entitled to receive any updates. That said, you can of course send me suggestions for this application. Who knows, I might find your feature suggestion great and implement it.
You are allowed to use EWA's source and use/modify it as you see fit for your own purpose.
You may freely distribute any derived work (both in binary and source code form). You may however not charge any kind of fees for your derived work. Donations are, of course, OK.
If you like EWA, find it usefull and you're in the mood, donating some ISKs to the EVE character Hel O'Ween is much appreciated. But please restrict any donations to ingame money. Besides the fact that CCP forbids paying RL money for EVE related services, I've written EWA mainly to help myself, partially to help other EVE pilots, too. I've not written EWA to earn some RL money.
I first introduced my app in July 2008 and ever since then have updated, enhanced and supported it. So I'm doing this for roughly 4 years now. In that time I received 1,998,027,854.94 ISK as donations for it. This boils down to 42.5 million ISK/month. Not even close to a PLEX/month. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Spark's
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 09:53:00 -
[1162]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here: You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Shocked at this move from CCP Woot! Just here, stealing your killz |
tikktokk tokkzikk
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:05:00 -
[1163]
So what stops people from paying $99 and charging real money for an app that give you isk? Or make it trickier, an app that give you XXX isk when you get killed.
To me this sounds like CCP is opening their doors for RMT
But please decide fast! I dont want to waste more money on subscription if you decide to do suicide.... |
John'eh
Gallente Asteroid Belt Protection Services
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:08:00 -
[1164]
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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tex sharky
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:15:00 -
[1165]
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:16:00 -
[1166]
Originally by: tikktokk tokkzikk So what stops people from paying $99 and charging real money for an app that give you isk? Or make it trickier, an app that give you XXX isk when you get killed.
To me this sounds like CCP is opening their doors for RMT
Charging $$$ (or plex) for in-game service is not allowed. Not now, not with the commercial license.
But yes, there are tricky cases and they all need to be covered.
That is exactly why CCP was so strict in their first version, they overshot their goal by far and hit all the wrong people, they just wanted to be sure to not allow RMT.
The more bordercases you allow, the tricker it gets.
It is difficult to root out the bad cases but not hitting the small, innocent guy.
This is our chance!
LET'S MAKE SUGGESTIONS HOW TO DO IT BETTER!
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Dodo Pigeonfighter
Caldari The Dodo Retirement Home
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:17:00 -
[1167]
It's a brilliant idea. Maybe you should start charging your employees also. Paying people who work for you is just stupid. What would dodo do? |
tex sharky
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:24:00 -
[1168]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: tikktokk tokkzikk So what stops people from paying $99 and charging real money for an app that give you isk? Or make it trickier, an app that give you XXX isk when you get killed.
To me this sounds like CCP is opening their doors for RMT
Charging $$$ (or plex) for in-game service is not allowed. Not now, not with the commercial license.
But yes, there are tricky cases and they all need to be covered.
That is exactly why CCP was so strict in their first version, they overshot their goal by far and hit all the wrong people, they just wanted to be sure to not allow RMT.
The more bordercases you allow, the tricker it gets.
It is difficult to root out the bad cases but not hitting the small, innocent guy.
This is our chance!
LET'S MAKE SUGGESTIONS HOW TO DO IT BETTER!
want an idea?
make subsciption free for people who run top eve 3rd party services. At least 3 accounts free per person just like ccp employees as a modest thank you for all the work they have done
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:30:00 -
[1169]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 17/06/2011 10:30:42
Originally by: Gnulpie
LET'S MAKE SUGGESTIONS HOW TO DO IT BETTER!
Here they are.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Johnathan Walker
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:41:00 -
[1170]
Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/06/2011 10:41:28 So hold on a minute...
Let's say I make a private corporate website. Said site uses ads to generate a few pennies on the dollar to help pay for my server/hosting costs...money that comes out of my pocket to provide a service to my wingmates.
Now I just happen to have a tie-in to the API checking sovereignty and POS bits... and now I need a commercial license because I use ads to pay my server expenses???
Seriously CCP?
Un-believable. You've done some crazy crap in the past (micro-transactions come to mind), but this... SORELY disappointed. It should be sufficient to place copyright information in a visible and public location. Warmly, "The Bear" JW
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Sturmwolke
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:49:00 -
[1171]
Congrats CCP, if those proposed changes in the blog follow through without amendments, not only would you have have ****ed off the majority of folks in the EVE community, you will also stifle freeware 3rd party app development by raising the bar.
Any developers thinking of running a free community service (e.g such as DotLan, eve-survival, eve-agents etc etc.) based on ad/donation will walk away immediately with disgust. Remember, this is ontop of the server/bandwidth costs and spending their free will and free time maintaining/supporting the service for the community. Effectively, you're biting the hand that feeds - for what? Mere pittance in licensing fee (I just have to say wtf, did you lose a brain?)
Now, you may argue that for some cases, the revenue may more than cover for the costs : - how sure are you for the majority of the cases? - are you also morally right or wrong with charging that token amount license sum?
What keeps EVE alive is the goodwill of the community. Throw that away, or chip it away with unreasonable changes, then you're looking at a dimmer future for EVE.
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lady2isis
Caldari Paxton Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 10:57:00 -
[1172]
Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
i am who i am; therefor i am Her |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:01:00 -
[1173]
Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
QFT. --
|
Mauya
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:21:00 -
[1174]
I think this is a very bad idea CCP. I think many of the developers develop 3rd applications for fun. I doubt they will continue to develop 3rd programs for the eve universe in the future |
Noa Fuyu
Amarr Resilience. Northern Coalition.
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:25:00 -
[1175]
Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you ASSHATS
-------------------------- I would throw a hundred ships into the void just to see you crushed. |
Timi Falense
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:25:00 -
[1176]
Edited by: Timi Falense on 17/06/2011 11:26:16 This is a terrible idea, it will make ppl leave the game, it will stop players from developing apps and it will make ppl angry if it goes through. Here I was actually starting to enjoy Eve again and then this?!, shame on you ccp! :(
|
Consortium Agent
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:35:00 -
[1177]
Another 24 hours and still no 'discussion' going on with CCP Atlas and the 3rd party developer community. Just us 3rd party developers and a whole bunch of our p*ssed off fans telling CCP how ignorant this is.
No worries - it's looking like this coming weekend is sure to keep CCP's forums alight with p*ssed off customers when us 3rd party dev's take down our sites and apps in protest of the lack of forethought and *TOTAL LACK OF COMMUNICATION* from CCP on this. You want to charge us to increase the value of your intellectual property? Fine. We'll show you what Eve would be like without us... and what thousands of p*ssed off clients feels like. Enjoy, CCP.
To our fans and visitors - we apologize that such a drastic measure has to be taken in order to get CCP to have the discussion they have thus far failed to have about this 'new service' they are offering - but it seems the only way CCP listens to the community anymore is when we generate a big enough public spectacle of them.
I want my old CCP back. I want to hang with the game devs in-game again. I want to feel like all my time and effort supporting Eve online FOR FREE and caring about the players is worth something more than a $99 license fee.
I have no desire to even log into Eve at the moment. My five accounts have sat idle since this whole debacle began and I'm seriously considering just calling it quits. Which is unfortunate because I love EVE - I f*cking HATE CCP tho. Bad dog!
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 11:38:00 -
[1178]
Originally by: Mauya I think this is a very bad idea CCP. I think many of the developers develop 3rd applications for fun. I doubt they will continue to develop 3rd programs for the eve universe in the future
And this is of course the great concern. You think the devs of EVEMON, for example, pressed to free time to develop their stuff as it is, will continue to work on their app when CCP has the gall to charge them for their volunteer work?!
Charging money to play dress-up is one thing; charging people who actually promote and help make your game better, for free, that's just plain insanity. --
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backtrace
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:48:00 -
[1179]
Originally by: lady2isis
Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
-- Some men just want to watch the world burn. |
Tuitan Boger
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:53:00 -
[1180]
I first started playing eve 3 years ago, I quit 2 weeks later because I couldn't figure out why my Merlin kept blowing up in missions. I then started playing again about a year or so ago, after a friend showed me EVE HQ. I slowly started figuring out how to fit my ships with the proper resistances for the mission at hand (there is no faq about what damages guristas, drones, blood raiders, serpentis, sansha, and angels do). Then I found a corp to join the pointed me to EVE Mon, which helped me to find what skills I needed to train. I also spent 2 weeks of training time to train learning skills (glad they are gone). But I had no clue what they were when I first started playing and EVE Mon helped with that.
Started to pvp, ended up browsing battleclinic, eve-kill looking at peoples fits getting ideas of my own and putting them in to eve hq, testing them on the server and figuring out what worked and what didn't.
Now you want to charge $99 a year for these 3rd party programs simply because they take donations? These programs are the only reason I am playing eve again.
Without these programs you, CCP would not be getting $560 a year for my 3 accounts.
But what ever who am I kidding CCP is just going to look at this thread and be like "Suckers" and still do it anyway. In which case I hope the 3rd party developers simply shut down their sites and let CCP sweat it out. Maybe then they will realize how important these sites are to the eve "community" Which they seem to care less about with each patch (Who the **** cares about walking in stations?) I play this game for spaceships not to look at my ugly ass character. |
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.06.17 11:56:00 -
[1181]
You realise you're dependent on these 3rd party developers for a sizeable portion of your playerbase, right? I wouldn't touch Eve with a 10 ft bargepole if I didn't have Evemon and EFT available to compensate for the poor state of their in-game UI equivalents.
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OldWolf69
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:14:00 -
[1182]
Guys. Don't get too angry. They don't care about that. Or just have a good laugh at that. It's fair game, because it's their game. Altrough stated as discussion, there will be none. Will be just our angry as customers. Even if CCP Atlas, or whoever, will respond, they did start this thread for the appareance of a discussion. And do what they want. Because they want. The money. Just the money. Only the money. Forever and ever. The money. Without the 3thrd party's, some of the ppl will go away. And the rest will do failfits and other sh0tz like that, and some wil buy plex to renew what they lost. And that's the intention. They will say that the 99$ are nothing, and the 3thrd partys using CCP's intelectual property, and that's right. But fair were to charge the ones that ask money for their apps. But...but...wait...there's no good app that ask to be payed? But...but...how to get the 13,27plexes they could win by that? CCP, why not double the game fee? Then you don't need to make people angry, and have a bad name. Well, there will be a greedy name, and most posible a penible fail and this game's end. But how about take some risks, like you say ppl should take in game? But, no, i'm afraid you will chose the 99$ fee. Ninja salvaging has his fans, and seems on higher lvl's too. Because better a shure small loot then a risky tripple win. That's was ninjas evolve to just griefers, but pirates become sometimes brilliant PvP-ers. Why TH every good bussines ends up being ruled by small and insignificant economists? "My name is Legion. Because we are many"...?
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Cross Barret
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:15:00 -
[1183]
There is really nothing I can say that hasn't been said, I just wanted to add my support and voice my concern for tools like dotlan, eve-central, eft, evemon, evehq, evenews24, etc that will be negatively affected by such a change. A licensing fee for programs or services that charge the user RL money for their use (e.g., as capsuleer wanted to) makes perfect sense and it may even spur professional programmers to make some cool new apps. HOWEVER, please leave free programs or services alone. This includes programs or services that use ads or donations to offset their costs. Give them a free license if you insist on making them have a license.
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Joey Moonbeam
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:18:00 -
[1184]
Why are you ruining one of the things that made this game great?
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Da Death
Minmatar Relentless Enterprises Ore Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.17 12:59:00 -
[1185]
Oook this is now the last post. I think CCP got it.
THANKS EVERYONE FOR THEIR IN and OUTPUTS!! á BPOS: Absolution Curse Prorator Impel Vengeance T2 mods/Drones/Ammo
Since 2003. |
Vigoth Ritic
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:21:00 -
[1186]
WTS TIME MACHINE
Think about it CCP it has your buggy database and it has YOUR ideas loaded in the AI. Enjoy the LAGGY RIDE
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:30:00 -
[1187]
FWIW, CCP... I've decided I *do* want to login after all. So I can sit in Jita and inform as many players as possible about your ebil plans. Muahahahaha
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MsTiCkEl
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:34:00 -
[1188]
I think we should all calm down. This has to be some kind of joke. Surely they aren't being serious. With all the other ways they are breaking it off in their own clients (players), this one has to be a joke...
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dEEpdenim
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:38:00 -
[1189]
It is easy to throw arrows left and right while your own money not involved. Do you want make 3rd parties developers happy in very old fashion way? Are YOU personally prepared and willing to do so? If so, it is great!
There is the way I will do it, if I be in charge (and ofc I am not).
CCP opens "special" API only for applications allowed to use it (read: got license agreement). To make information available for your char thru this API you need to pay, lets say $1 per char/account - whatever. And CCP will pay commission like 60% to App developer.
Let's say, there will be 2 versions of EFT available. The one we have now and the second one uses "closed" API. May be something like "pro" version, you name it.
So, purchasing such API Key, you will not making damn donation but instead you pay for application the guy very well deserved to be paid for. Will it make you feel better?
Would I pay for such stuff few bucks? If it is hassle free, for example via PayPal, I almost certain I will.
API is very powerful weapon. And if it used properly it may create whole new breed of applications and extend EvE boundaries. And make this great game even more enjoyable.
The blind and brutal approach as proposed licensing model brings only kinda of storm we have right here right now.
Lets hope CCP will come up with something more suitable for developers, end users and ofc CCP.
cheers
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Mark Hamill
Amarr Galactic Waste Management EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:48:00 -
[1190]
As the developer of EVETycoon, here's my two cents for what it's worth.
I would LOVE to be able to monetize the software I've written. I'd love to get rich off it. Coming up with a scheme where I could just sit and work on software from home all day would be a dream come true. Unfortunately, there's a little voice inside my head (among many others) that says it won't happen.
The EVE community has come to expect certain things, one of those things is a vibrant community of 3rd party developers who do it as a labor of love and provide their apps for free/donations. I wrote ET for me, no one else. It just so happens that others found it useful and I continued to expand it to support their desires. To give you an idea of what they expect, when I first released it as EVEReprocessor some 5 years ago, I had to fend off a FLOOD of calls to make it open source. This is what your community expects.
I do accept donations to help offset my hosting costs and to pay for those shiny toys in my hangar. In 5 years of working on ET I haven't even received a billion isk in donations. ET loses money. If I did try to monetize EVETycoon people would just stop using it. EVETycoon primarily appeals to those traders who do reprocessing to make isk. There are more than I ever suspected but not THAT many. Most of them came to ET after writing their own spreadsheets. If I was forced to purchase a license I'd also be forced to charge real money for ET. I'm not a rich man. I couldn't begin to justify $100 a year and then provide ET for free. If I did charge my users, they'd go back to their spreadsheets faster than they could click the uninstall button.
I'm not at all opposed to your license scheme in principle. I do believe that if you did provide an inexpensive way for small 3rd party developers like me to step beyond donations and into monetization you'd have an even bigger community of developers with even bigger and better apps. If you gave me that OPTION, I might even sit down and rewrite ET into that monster do-all, be-all app. The way you have it structured now, I'd be forced to pull the public plug on ET. Furthermore, why the hell would I pay you $100 a year when, the way you have it written, you don't guarantee me or my users jack **** in return?
EVETycoon Marketing, trading and reprocessing tool. |
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:50:00 -
[1191]
Originally by: Da Death Oook this is now the last post. I think CCP got it.
THANKS EVERYONE FOR THEIR IN and OUTPUTS!!
Actually, they didn't get the message. The message is we want to have a discussion about this. They're message is 'ok, ok, we'll work on this and get back to you at the end of the summer' which is unacceptable because they're hoping that we'll just forget about it by then and they'll slide it in under the radar with no opposition until it's too late.
Keep this topic going until that have the discussion they said they wanted to have on this.
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Gurgeh Murat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.17 13:55:00 -
[1192]
CCP Zulu, CCP Atlas, CCP ANYONE
This isnt going away.
Are you too "kind of swamped" to deal with the ****storm youve stirred up? The longer your too swamped to attempt any kind of damage control, the worse this is going to get. Some people in this thread havent fully grasped the mechanics your meddling with and are seeing a worst case scenario where any app requires a licences, donation or not. Increased anger all round.
YOU NEED TO MAKE A BIG, CLEAR ANNOUNCEMENT ON THE FORUMS about what your going to do. Falling silent is making it worse. If your too swamped to realize people are actually unsubbing (yes, people are posting screenies of their unsubbing, its happening) Then your game is going to go down the tubes. Seriously. This thread contains just about every possible solution from angelic to diabolical. Pick the one you want (hint, its the one that at least 90% of people posting want) Then dump it on Bizdev with a "earn your money you MBA sony*****alikes and make this happen" tag then post it up. Then go back to your barbies in space.
DEAL WITH IT FFS. YOU created this pus filled infection, if you dont deal with it there will be amputations ahead.
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Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:04:00 -
[1193]
Originally by: Mark Hamill As the developer of EVETycoon, here's my two cents for what it's worth.
I would LOVE to be able to monetize the software I've written. I'd love to get rich off it. Coming up with a scheme where I could just sit and work on software from home all day would be a dream come true. Unfortunately, there's a little voice inside my head (among many others) that says it won't happen.
The EVE community has come to expect certain things, one of those things is a vibrant community of 3rd party developers who do it as a labor of love and provide their apps for free/donations. I wrote ET for me, no one else. It just so happens that others found it useful and I continued to expand it to support their desires. To give you an idea of what they expect, when I first released it as EVEReprocessor some 5 years ago, I had to fend off a FLOOD of calls to make it open source. This is what your community expects.
I do accept donations to help offset my hosting costs and to pay for those shiny toys in my hangar. In 5 years of working on ET I haven't even received a billion isk in donations. ET loses money. If I did try to monetize EVETycoon people would just stop using it. EVETycoon primarily appeals to those traders who do reprocessing to make isk. There are more than I ever suspected but not THAT many. Most of them came to ET after writing their own spreadsheets. If I was forced to purchase a license I'd also be forced to charge real money for ET. I'm not a rich man. I couldn't begin to justify $100 a year and then provide ET for free. If I did charge my users, they'd go back to their spreadsheets faster than they could click the uninstall button.
I'm not at all opposed to your license scheme in principle. I do believe that if you did provide an inexpensive way for small 3rd party developers like me to step beyond donations and into monetization you'd have an even bigger community of developers with even bigger and better apps. If you gave me that OPTION, I might even sit down and rewrite ET into that monster do-all, be-all app. The way you have it structured now, I'd be forced to pull the public plug on ET. Furthermore, why the hell would I pay you $100 a year when, the way you have it written, you don't guarantee me or my users jack **** in return?
CCP, you have said you are reviewing your 'draft', and if you really are going back to the drawing board read what this player has said before you **** up again.
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Ix Forres
Caldari Righteous Chaps
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:07:00 -
[1194]
Originally by: tex sharky make subsciption free for people who run top eve 3rd party services. At least 3 accounts free per person just like ccp employees as a modest thank you for all the work they have done
Fansite operators already (sometimes) get one free account per fansite. If they ask, and are judged worthy of such an account by whoever makes those decisions, etc. Which is pretty nice of CCP, honestly. It wasn't always this way: only from late 2009 onwards I think.
The trouble with this whole thing here is faith. CCP was a company that I used to believe were a really great company, a different company that wasn't just another crappy MMO company. EVE is a special thing, something that deserves reverence and respect. But CCP have fallen far from where they once were. At one time I was considering applying to work at CCP and leaving family and friends behind to work with EVE. Now, I wouldn't even begin to consider that. Not in a million years.
I sunk nearly four years of my life into developing apps for EVE. I started off while I was only a student; $99 would have stopped me from even considering making anything for EVE. But even if they made the license $10, or even free, the attitude CCP has taken to dealing with the community lately would have put me off ever considering making apps for EVE long ago.
Sorry CCP, but the damage is done. I'm not the only third party dev who feels like this. All you can hope to do now is damage control. Rebuilding faith is not easily accomplished. -- Ix Forres - Used to be a third party developer, now a full-time bittervet |
NenYim
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:20:00 -
[1195]
i will HAPPY QUIT eve and cancle my 2 accounts if this goes through.... thats more than your $99 a year fee u will lose.... and im sure there will be ALTO of other ppl following me on this... CCP U FAIL!
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Gaztanshana
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:25:00 -
[1196]
Originally by: NenYim i will HAPPY QUIT eve and cancle my 2 accounts if this goes through.... thats more than your $99 a year fee u will lose.... and im sure there will be ALTO of other ppl following me on this... CCP U FAIL!
Yep, same here with 2 accounts.
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Nabuch Sattva
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:26:00 -
[1197]
Originally by: lady2isis
Originally by: tex sharky
Originally by: John'eh
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Cailais
Amarr Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:35:00 -
[1198]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
Too swamped to address perhaps the greatest betrayal you've visited upon your most fervent supporters since EVE began eh?
C.
the hydrostatic capsule blog
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KilABitcH
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Posted - 2011.06.17 14:58:00 -
[1199]
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Greed is the biggest destroyer of man!
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Tarithell
Rim Collection RC Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:05:00 -
[1200]
This is pretty much a punch under the belt for newbes...
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Kina Ayami
Affari Sporchi
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:07:00 -
[1201]
Edited by: Kina Ayami on 17/06/2011 15:12:58
Originally by: KilA*****
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Greed is the biggest destroyer of man!
qft :-/
edit: because of a busy and happy rl i'm quite an inactive player. Still, i pay for two accounts, to play for those few hours/month, and because i like the eve community; i like to read about the fights i cant join anymore and about drama. This is what mainly keep me interested in the game ( to be clear , i dont give a **** about incarna o dust or whatever...). Imho, whatever is going against your community and the people keeping it active, is going against you in the long term. Think it over, please.
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roq deelim
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:16:00 -
[1202]
Originally by: KilA*****
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Greed is the biggest destroyer of man!
THIS.
ccp is developing from a game-dev who is loved by its players to the absolute hate-object - and its entirely their own fault. amazing how quick you can shoot yourself in the foot...
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Kjar Achran
Minmatar Gung-Ho
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:18:00 -
[1203]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
just in case the point was missed
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Ptraci
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:27:00 -
[1204]
Edited by: Ptraci on 17/06/2011 15:30:19 Not to mention there is something called "fair use" that exists in many countries. Yes EVE Online, the game and storyline and in-game item selection is undoubtedly the intellectual property of CCP hf. However it's possible to get into arguments about what exactly is "allowed" and isn't "allowed" under copyright laws.
Now of course you at CCP could take the attitude that many corporations take: "we will let our legal department handle that, and we can afford better lawyers than you can". However do you really think that suing your customers music/film industry-style is the image you want, going forward?
I think there are far more creative ways of increasing EVE-related revenue than "You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you *******"...
You own the game. You do NOT own the community.
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Rillen Valkha
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:28:00 -
[1205]
Bad idea. This will be the beginning of a downward spiral.
Please do not do this.
What on earth made you think this was a good idea?
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Thee Ab'adon
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:33:00 -
[1206]
Ok I get charging a license fee to people who CHARGE for their services...but donations, advertisement run sites, corp websites and even the damn ISK donation sites? What the bloody hell are you people thinking??? Do you realize what a damn wasteland the third party content of EVE will become if you attempt to charge people who run sites like DOTLAN and applications like EVEMon an annual fee?
I get it if you want to charge people who sell their phone apps for $. I get it if you want a $ subscription per month website based on eve to pay you....but those free resources that help make EVE into the ONLY game to have not only lasted this long but prospered?
Are you bleeding insane?
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OldWolf69
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:48:00 -
[1207]
Silence
Tought that customers deserve at least the respect of a small answer. Foolish me.
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skurv
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Posted - 2011.06.17 15:50:00 -
[1208]
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
First, to all those who are reposting the whole "you're charging" blah blah blah... he's already admitted that the contract needs revisited to meet everyone's needs, give them a while to actually sift through the crap that's in the thread and pull out the valid points, revise the document, and try again. You're talking about a legal contract they're creating here, that takes time to make/review and get the okay from the boss.
Second, I personally think that charging people who monetize their applications is more than appropriate. If you get real money for your product that utilizes their intellectual property, then you should have to give them money in return. However, if you do not charge people real money (ie isk or donation only) and are not ad supported then there's no reason you should have to pay and you should be able to use the free license. Products out there currently such as evemon and EFT wouldn't be effected by this change (if it was done this way) other than the developers would have to get the free license, and the majority of the playerbase would go on uneffected.
The type of player that would pay for an application is not your average eve player. Most of us are happy using EVEMon and EFT and playing the game. Others, those that specialize in the market especially (which is where a lot of this third party software comes into play tbh), might be willing to pay a small fee for a program that actually helps them make lots of in game profit (or at least reduces the effort/work involved in doing so).
Lastly, i would like to emphasize zulu's statement below....
Quote:
Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:00:00 -
[1209]
Originally by: skurv
First, to all those who are reposting the whole "you're charging" blah blah blah... he's already admitted that the contract needs revisited to meet everyone's needs, give them a while to actually sift through the crap that's in the thread and pull out the valid points, revise the document, and try again. You're talking about a legal contract they're creating here, that takes time to make/review and get the okay from the boss.
Quote:
Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
Blowing smoke up our ass doesn't impress me. CCP Zulu did little more than blow smoke up our ass. We want a discussion - they offered us a discussion. There has been no discussion. There has been smoke blown up our ass. That's it.
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Dynamix Boon
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:19:00 -
[1210]
Originally by: CCP Zulu The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
While I understand the desire to protect the IP; the value of the IP is dependant on the community that makes Eve the game it is. Unlike most MMOs, the content in Eve is hugely player driven. Any action that harms the community ultimately harms the IP and vice versa.
I am wondering why there is suddenly a need for this regulation. Most applications and services made available to the Eve community are peer reviewed, so poor apps and websites rarely get traction.
There is a need for some sort of commercial license for products that wish to be sold for real money, it's fair for CCP to take a their cut. However please don't confuse "for profit" with "for the community" products.
Any form of regulation in the form a license agreement could cause conflicts with existing open source licences, or distribution agreements. I would prefer to see a voluntary code of conduct which developers could publicly sign up to. It's important for CCP not to regulate, but to guide. Regulation can stifle creativity. Developers not adhering to the code of conduct maybe encouraged to seek a commercial license depending on the circumstances.
Ultimately it is in the best interests of both CCP and the Eve community, to see Eve Online thrive and grow.
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Aerick Dawn
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:19:00 -
[1211]
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
__________________ If I'm in a fair fight, i've done something terribly wrong. |
Michelle Almeida
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:26:00 -
[1212]
by doing this CCP you will destroy so much, really aint much else i can say. nothing positive about it
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Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:30:00 -
[1213]
Zulu - that doesn't sound corporate-y
It sounds political.
Politics: from the words poly (meaning numerous) and ticks (blood sucking insects)
JUST REMOVE IT.
In the immortal words of Monty Python: GET ON WITH IT.
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Cao Acoma
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:34:00 -
[1214]
Originally by: KilA*****
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Greed is the biggest destroyer of man!
QFT |
Dunbal
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:35:00 -
[1215]
Dear CCP,
Please fire your "brand manager" and hire someone who actually knows what they are doing. I would suggest hiring someone from a company that pursues an aggressive branding, marketing and market research policy, like Coca Cola, McDonald's, Procter and Gamble, Kraft, Nestle, Kimberly-Clark, etc. Unfortunately for you, however, these experts in brand management will demand salaries netting above $120k US a year (probably more in Europe) PLUS bonuses, and I am not sure that your "brand" is big enough to afford this. However this is a step you have to take if you are serious about your brand positioning.
Or you can keep ticking off your user-base like you just did, and see if that helps your "branding" at all. Remember that the value of your IP and your brand is absolutely nothing if no one wants to play EVE anymore. You are in a niche. Be careful what you do with your limited niche players.
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Etown
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:56:00 -
[1216]
I've lost faith in humanity.
They'll change it so you'll only need the commercial license if your actually charging money.
Calm down. Go outside.
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darmwand
wiremaniacs
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Posted - 2011.06.17 16:58:00 -
[1217]
Originally by: Etown Go outside.
Nope, it's raining.
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TwentyFive MikeMike
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Posted - 2011.06.17 17:01:00 -
[1218]
Originally by: Dunbal Remember that the value of your IP and your brand is absolutely nothing if no one wants to play EVE anymore. You are in a niche. Be careful what you do with your limited niche players.
Truth. |
Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
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Posted - 2011.06.17 17:03:00 -
[1219]
The only thing that comes to mind is that CCP are slowly starting to move away from the concept of CCP=Eve. But they are doing it in awkward, self damaging way. As every business they don't want to be a one product company, they want to diversify the portfolio. On the other hand, Eve is a classical cash cow - niche game, stable audience, no matter how much you advertise, Eve (as it is now) will not attract other sectors of player audience. So, what they are doing is understandable. Problem is, they are doing it in a unprofessional and self-destructive ways.
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darmwand
wiremaniacs
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Posted - 2011.06.17 17:06:00 -
[1220]
Originally by: Estephania The only thing that comes to mind is that CCP are slowly starting to move away from the concept of CCP=Eve. But they are doing it in awkward, self damaging way. As every business they don't want to be a one product company, they want to diversify the portfolio. On the other hand, Eve is a classical cash cow - niche game, stable audience, no matter how much you advertise, Eve (as it is now) will not attract other sectors of player audience. So, what they are doing is understandable. Problem is, they are doing it in a unprofessional and self-destructive ways.
Diversify? Into the highly lucrative field of abusing your customers and contributors?
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Imogen Filiotov
Bloodbound.
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Posted - 2011.06.17 17:14:00 -
[1221]
This is starting to sound like the Creative driver IP issue, where a 3rd party dev made working drivers for the community. EVE IP, by law, belong to CCP Games whether you agree or not, that is the case. IP and licensing is always messy. I don't agree that CCP have only NOW decided to charge for licensing and IP usage. This should have been implemented Day 1, not 10 years down the line. The problem araises when 3rd party devs "ask for donations." Even if the donations are completely innocent or voluntary, this can be seen as an income using CCP's IP. I know, it sucks.
Perhaps CCP Games should have contacted the various popular 3rd party devs and asked for help. |
Davo OHno
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:21:00 -
[1222]
Originally by: ViRUS Pottage
Originally by: Sarina Berghil
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Needs quoting for clarity so even CCP gets it.
Not that I agree with the language used in the line, but the original post sites too many examples to be ignored.
CCP... You never listen to the gripes, but in this case... OPEN YOUR EYES |
Raziel Saston
Deviance Cartel Hedonistic Imperative
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:23:00 -
[1223]
Well done CCP For a company i always thought highly of for customer relations, now the company has lost it's shine. Really dissapointing. |
Skullair
Under the Table Inc. Rising Phoenix Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:32:00 -
[1224]
Quote: Why charge for the license at all?
The licensing fee is there to partially cover expenses from this initiative and more importantly, we need to charge a fee so that we get proper non-spoofable information about the applicant. We have kept the fee as low as possible and hope that the $99 fee is low enough to not dissuade serious developers from participating in the program.
So non-CCP developers are paying you so that you can charge them...
Quote: Whether we charge $100 or $50 or $10 for a commercial license won't make a big difference to our balance sheet.
the goal from the first quote is to just make a list of third party apps and information on the producer why not make it 10$ 1 time fee or is it just yall speculateing how much money is some one willing to pay before they *****
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:43:00 -
[1225]
Originally by: Dynamix Boon
Originally by: CCP Zulu The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
While I understand the desire to protect the IP; the value of the IP is dependant on the community that makes Eve the game it is. Unlike most MMOs, the content in Eve is hugely player driven.
TLDR
CCP, WE are your IP, protect us
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:44:00 -
[1226]
Originally by: Raziel Saston Well done CCP For a company i always thought highly of for customer relations, now the company has lost it's shine. Really dissapointing.
It's been losing it's shine...this is just another scratch on the paint job...doubt this one will buff out though ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Glasgow Dunlop
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 17:53:00 -
[1227]
Edited by: Glasgow Dunlop on 17/06/2011 17:53:40 I herd they guy that done this was working for coke when they changed the formula
- if its not broke
dont fix it dont touch dont even look at but you come in trying the screw the player base intentions might have been good . . . but your silence only means 1 thing . ..
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Libin Herobi
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 18:00:00 -
[1228]
Originally by: CCP Zulu The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Does it imply that not everyone will be allowed to get a license? Will developers have to apply for a license and go through some assessment process? Or is it even per application? Do you (need to) get the license before you start creating an application or only before distributing it? What kind of control do you want to exercise and how does charging a license fee allow you to do that?
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 18:03:00 -
[1229]
Originally by: Libin Herobi
Originally by: CCP Zulu The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Does it imply that not everyone will be allowed to get a license? Will developers have to apply for a license and go through some assessment process? Or is it even per application? Do you (need to) get the license before you start creating an application or only before distributing it? What kind of control do you want to exercise and how does charging a license fee allow you to do that?
Think Apple and their ****assed Market. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Gabriel Rosencrantz
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 18:18:00 -
[1230]
Edited by: Gabriel Rosencrantz on 17/06/2011 18:19:00 I'm curious if the Red Frog Freight website qualifies. Reading the initial post, its kind of hard to be sure.
I can't imagine why we should have to pay $99 bucks (plus webhost fees) for the privilege of having a trip calculator for our clients. It seems a little silly.
However, it looks like you're thinking things through. |
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 19:05:00 -
[1231]
Originally by: Gabriel Rosencrantz
However, it looks like you're thinking things through.
Ya, that's just damage control talk. Blizzard said the same thing [going back to the drawing board] when they tried to push the Real ID use on the forums. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Jimmy Astro
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:34:00 -
[1232]
Originally by: Dunbal Dear CCP, Remember that the value of your IP and your brand is absolutely nothing if no one wants to play EVE anymore. You are in a niche. Be careful what you do with your limited niche players.
Exactly.
Someone slap the asshat that is making the Kool-aid in the CCP kitchen. It tastes like crap and I'm pretty sure it's only going to leave an accountant with bad ideas standing.
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Sleevedace
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:40:00 -
[1233]
If people read the dev blog they'd see this licensing change is very clean and probably the most liberal commercial IP license in the history of software development.
Just ccp can't write a dev blog worth a ****, and half the people on this forum are illiterate in that regard.
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Jimmy Astro
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 21:54:00 -
[1234]
Originally by: Sleevedace If people read the dev blog they'd see this licensing change is very clean and probably the most liberal commercial IP license in the history of software development.
Just ccp can't write a dev blog worth a ****, and half the people on this forum are illiterate in that regard.
So you are in favor of having to pay a fee for apps and player created efforts like EVEMon, EFT, Doltan Maps? Want to have to buy a membership to sites that offer intel on mission running? This sounds like a good idea?
I don't give a ****e about how clean it is ... it's a horrible idea, clean or dirty.
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Laendra
Universalis Imperium
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Posted - 2011.06.17 21:56:00 -
[1235]
About 8 years too late, imho. Hopefully you won't wait so long to pull the trigger on future games. -------------------
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FB Tuz
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:06:00 -
[1236]
Never ever have I thought I would be posting in such a threadnaught... I can't understand how such a terrible idea could came up, even in a BizDev meeting, I can't understand how it got out of the meeting room, even as a draft, without being dismissed and laughed at, and I mostly can't understand how this Dev Blog could be published without anyone reviewing it at CCP realizing the insult it would be to the community.
As for the content, 1200+ posts have pretty much said it all, but maybe it should be said once more for CCP to learn to do things right (and I'm glad to quote the original poster, champion - in spite of himself - of this thread) :
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Now, put the draft where it belongs : in the dustbin, and start working on a real solution to monetizing 3rd party apps, because you're right, it's needed !
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Alice Katsuko
Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:08:00 -
[1237]
Edited by: Alice Katsuko on 17/06/2011 23:08:54
Originally by: CCP Zulu There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
There's nothing confusing about the devblog.
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
Will website ads require a commercial license?
Yes, for ad-supported websites you will require a commercial license.
Will donations require a commercial license?
Yes, for donation supported websites you will require a commercial license.
You've stated here quite explicitly that you intend to charge nonprofit sites $99 even if any ad-based or donation revenue doesn't pay for even a fraction of hosting and development costs. That would include virtually every free EVE application which has a little "donate" button, as well as virtually every alliance forum and website which has an API-based verification system. If that's not what CCP as a company intended to say, then perhaps you need to proofread dev-blogs more thoroughly.
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Because charging folk, who pay out of pocket to provide services which make this game much more playable and which provide functions which any competent developer would have incorporated into the game years ago, clearly encourages third-party development. As has been pointed out repeatedly, if you simply want to control your IP, charging a nominal $1 fee unless the application developer commercializes their program [like the old Capsuleer] would have been enough. This idea could only have been dreamed up by some idiot MBA who has never touched EVE in his life and who wants to make it look like he contributed to the bottom line.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
CCP hasn't had a very good track record of reviewing or iterating. Half the game resembles abandonware. Most of us have seen plenty of empty promises to iterate on this or that broken or incomplete feature. In all honesty, I expect little more than to find that entire failure of an attempt to squeeze a profit from app developers to be shoved down our throats within the next few months.
Originally by: CCP Zulu Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
If you're too busy to properly review ideas before making them public, then don't make them public.
In short, requiring for-profit developers who charge for their EVE apps to pay a $99 fee makes sense. Charging nonprofit developers who get small donations $99 makes absolutely no sense, especially if you really don't intend to profit from this.
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Little Fistter
Caldari Crimson Templars
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:30:00 -
[1238]
Skimming the 42 pages of whineing by players, I am ashamed of us! How spoiled are you? What, you live in your mom's basement and haven't had a job all year? You are so coddled by your parents that you have no idea of what fair treatment in the commercial world is about?
Most companies would sell a commercial API license for over ten thousand euros. No one in the industry is giving it away for under a thousand!
And you beetch and moan over a $99 commercial license? You obviously do not understand the value of this license, or you have a very selfish attitude to your efforts.
Guys, I honestly can not think of how to convey my loss of esteem for you all as a group, to take a gift (which this offer genuinely is!) and to complain about it, you have no clue what the value of IP is.
try this: Go ask Microsoft for a Live account so you can sell an add-on for say Halo, or God of War. Call Sony and ask them how much to use their API for StarWars Galaxies... or try Nintendo, see what a "Rachet and Clank" API license would cost.
CCP is making an honest attempt to break throu the industry with the fairest deal ever, and you dissing that offer is foolish and shortsighted!
Grow up! DEVS! Please a small color indicator upon jump gate icon that shows color of the system security rating of the destination system in the overview and in the HUD view. Little Fistter |
darmwand
wiremaniacs
|
Posted - 2011.06.17 23:39:00 -
[1239]
Learn to read. This is about non-commercial software and websites.
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Salene Gralois
K-2
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:04:00 -
[1240]
Edited by: Salene Gralois on 18/06/2011 00:05:06 Edited by: Salene Gralois on 18/06/2011 00:04:36
Originally by: Little Fistter Skimming the 42 pages of whineing by players, I am ashamed of us! How spoiled are you? What, you live in your mom's basement and haven't had a job all year? You are so coddled by your parents that you have no idea of what fair treatment in the commercial world is about?
Fine. I'll bite. I'm a senior dev. Companies that dwarf CCP use the services I've built and in my spare time i like to toy with the API to make eve less of a bore.
Originally by: Little Fistter
Most companies would sell a commercial API license for over ten thousand euros. No one in the industry is giving it away for under a thousand!
And you beetch and moan over a $99 commercial license?
Yes. Because ccp does not allow you to charge real currency. I don't want to either.
Originally by: Little Fistter
You obviously do not understand the value of this license, or you have a very selfish attitude to your efforts.
It has no value. There is only crap and incomplete documentation. There is no guarantee of usability. There is no roadmap for future development other than the sparse blog. They offer no support on the API because it is provided AS-IS.
Originally by: Little Fistter
Guys, I honestly can not think of how to convey my loss of esteem for you all as a group, to take a gift (which this offer genuinely is!) and to complain about it, you have no clue what the value of IP is.
try this: Go ask Microsoft for a Live account so you can sell an add-on for say Halo, or God of War. Call Sony and ask them how much to use their API for StarWars Galaxies... or try Nintendo, see what a "Rachet and Clank" API license would cost.
CCP is making an honest attempt to break throu the industry with the fairest deal ever, and you dissing that offer is foolish and shortsighted!
Grow up!
Will I be able to charge real life currency for in game services? No, the commercial license does not allow you to charge real life money for any in-game services.
Please, have a clue.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.18 00:08:00 -
[1241]
Originally by: darmwand Learn to read. This is about non-commercial software and websites.
Don't bother; some one will always been in favor of bad ideas...hell in America there's tards that are FOR the removal of the First Amendment (aka freedom of speech). ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
|
Philip Richardson
Depthstrike Industries Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:10:00 -
[1242]
Little Fistter, the big thing you missed in the 42 pages of posts is on page 6.
People who do not charge for access to what they're producing and instead merely run low-income ads or accept donations of isk or rl money are getting charged this $99.
In that case, those people are adding $99/year to their bills for providing the products/services (such as eve-files and eve-search) for free. That's an additional $99/year that they have to spend in addition to domain registration and server hosting that has to be covered out of pocket. Ads barely pay for domain registration in some cases. Eve-metrics, while it was up, only pulled in about $160 in donations and didn't run ads.
Many of these people are lucky to get $20/year out of their advertizing, and they already have to pay over $100/year OUT OF POCKET in servers (more like $100+/month for sites like eve-files due to needing full dedicated servers). The original iteration of the license would add another $99/year to that.
Seriously, commercial ventures (like paid-for apps) are fine to charge the $99/year for the license. VOLUNTARY donation based or ad-supported, not fine, as the donations and ads do NOT pay enough to pay for the license.
----------- - I blame stompy for any confusion I might have caused. |
SaschaS
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:12:00 -
[1243]
Quote: This is a pretty simple program and hopefully it will help you convincing your significant other that developing applications for a space game until 3am in the morning is a good idea.
...uhm...
Commercial software developers needs to work from home and explain "significant other" about working at nite when it is possible from office? Commercial developers need to explain "significant other" that they do it to earn money? Ads (which may regards too free webspace that no commecrial offer would have) are one reason for a commercial license. Annother reason for a commercial license are "Donations" which is a usual way to receive anything as inty developer...
sorry that is a NON FREE INTY + commercial license agreement, so you slap anyone who develops in freetime that MAY receive donations right into his/her face. Thats a bad deal! Many websits with just ads from their hosts should pay money wether for the webspace or for the license, this will result additional costs for your customers by using websites that make things easier wich ccp does not offer.
Anyway currently there is NO Service or website that is not downloadable by websites without ads, has no ads and or does not has an option for donations, please name one that does not belong to a corp or ally.
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Maximus Trollus
Amarr The Village Idiots
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Posted - 2011.06.18 00:13:00 -
[1244]
Originally by: Little Fistter tween wave
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Riyal
Chode Extravaganza
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Posted - 2011.06.18 00:26:00 -
[1245]
I have to feel sorry for the 3rd party developers, they make playing eve a much more enjoyable experience.
If i wanted to manufacture something in game (and not lose isk) the first thing i'd do is minimize the game and load up a spreadsheet. Another good example is trying to figure out a ship fit without using a 3rd party fitting program.
Many aspects of eve are barely playable without the aid of 3rd party tools.
This seems like such a misguided direction for CCP.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.18 00:36:00 -
[1246]
Originally by: Riyal I have to feel sorry for the 3rd party developers, they make playing eve a much more enjoyable experience.
If i wanted to manufacture something in game (and not lose isk) the first thing i'd do is minimize the game and load up a spreadsheet. Another good example is trying to figure out a ship fit without using a 3rd party fitting program.
Many aspects of eve are barely playable without the aid of 3rd party tools.
This seems like such a misguided direction for CCP.
ROFL, ya like my maelstrom had something like 400dps because I was using T2 ammo and not Republic Fleet Plasma rounds (~732dps). If it wasn't for places like Battleclinic and EVEHQ I might as well be flying a Reaper .
Oh and I'd still be training some of the skills to fly that maelstrom because my attribute distribution was 'evenly' spread from way back in '06 when I started and had no freakin clue what to max/min. Thanks again EVEHQ!
OR, the many times before EVEMON that my character sat with NO TRAINING because I didn't religiously login to check in on the game.
And Today with Aura (android app). I'd still have times where I didn't have anything training. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Vikarion
Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:40:00 -
[1247]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Seriously, isn't there anyone at CCP who realized that charging people to develop free apps for Eve is a Bad Idea? Anyone?
For monetized apps? Sure, that's a great idea. But for killboards, Evemon, EFT...
...this is insane. Just insane. - - -
Warning: Having fun, often at your expense!
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 00:46:00 -
[1248]
Originally by: Zero Bit
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ |
Ptraci
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:55:00 -
[1249]
Originally by: Vikarion But for killboards, Evemon, EFT...
...this is insane. Just insane.
Not to mention things like killboards would be covered under fair use laws and not a copyright violation in any sense. CCP can't stop anyone from writing about what you did with your "Rifter" any more than Kimberly-Clark can prevent you from telling people that you wiped your backside with "Scott" toilet paper. The real argument is how much CCP hf. is going to pay for all the free advertising these 3rd party websites have been giving them for all these years.
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Soxhlet
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 01:59:00 -
[1250]
The idea to JUST NOW monetize API access seems ridiculous after waiting for third parties to produce value added content that makes your game better both in game play and in planning. Monetization will stifle 3rd development; instead consider the coding and expenses YOU don't have to deal with because someone else is taking the time to make the player experience better.
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Jadechimera
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 02:53:00 -
[1251]
[Just one more person who says "no" to these changes.]
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Abraxus Lazzurs
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:39:00 -
[1252]
Adding another point on to my post which is probably lost in the red haze that is the past 42 pages. I'd even be ok with it, if there was an apps store where apps are uploaded after careful scrutiny by CCP and priced at a single cost of ú1 - ú2.
CCP takes 10-20% from this and everyone's happy as CCP would earn a cheeky wee penny for their IP, the developer whos pretty much done all the work for it would get compensated and the community wouldn't have to worry about continually forking out money for what are technically non-essential pieces of software. This could be altered by switching this cost to an equivalent ISK value from in-game, or done through account management would automagically remove the ISK from the characters' wallet.
Hell, there's even the method that a lot of Anti-Virus companies use...Allow users to download a version of the software for free, but have it use the previous update rather than the most recent...So those that want to get the more comprehensive version can and those that don't at least get left with something.
An Apps page on the EVE site is a good idea, but charging developers to fork out that amount is a death blow to 3rd party apps, esp if they're not making any real life money outta it themselves. There are better ways, so sit down have a beer, chill and think about it. Hell if you're really struggling hire me with my shiny new post grad! :P
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Si'Andregal Grungolash
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 03:49:00 -
[1253]
Edited by: Si''Andregal Grungolash on 18/06/2011 03:53:47 CCP, you must have lost your ****ing minds. What on earth is going on up there in CCP land?
It's nice to see you all completely abandon everything that has been done to make EVE great, the community probably contributes more to the enhancing the experience of eve than you have.
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Si'Andregal Grungolash
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:27:00 -
[1254]
DOES ANYTHING MAKE ANY BLOODY SENSE TO YOU ANYMORE CCP?
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 04:32:00 -
[1255]
Originally by: Qoi
Quote: Ad revenue and ISK payments should really, really NOT require a 99$/year license. Everything else, sure, why not. But not those two.
I tend to agree on the point that anything generating ad revenue as per CCP's requirements, (using adsense to block RMT sites), isn't really under the purvey of this program, and provided services rendered for ISK payments don't result an impressive level of ISK profit, (such as paying for an accounts for the next 10 years in a few months), they don't really fall under the purvey of this program either.
I think an exception to this would be online gambling sites intended to interact with EVE and use ISK, which profit their owners through these transactions. Sites which would not qualify would be Battleclinic for example, or EVE Service Corp Killboard hosting, which despite having an impressive level of ISK revenue, have returned that ISK to some of the playerbase through lotteries.
Perhaps services which return ISK to the playerbase by similar means, should recieve a credit against their actual ISK earnings. I don't believe gambling sites count, given they have a very high ISK turnover, which is precisely why they should be subject to this licensing. That may seem odd, but there is a difference between taking donations and fees for a supplied service, and rolling ISK over in a gambling casino.
Free licensing should still be required for all services.
Just my 2 ISK.
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Killajoules
Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.06.18 05:34:00 -
[1256]
This is not great news.
I am against this whole idea
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Killadicter
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.18 05:39:00 -
[1257]
"You are charging people who work for free to make your game better"
I second this, it is a very bad idea.
All licenses to be free if they're needed. & monitize if you want, but please dnt charge the developers.
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Dacro Insigna
Caldari Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.18 05:45:00 -
[1258]
Yeah, no thanks. +1 to this being a horrific idea.
- Dax
"AND it proves you to be very wrong in that statement" - Strife Phoenix, Intelligence Incarnate |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
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Posted - 2011.06.18 06:19:00 -
[1259]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 18/06/2011 06:19:48 This is the first time I've ever seen an CPP announcement where the following occurred:
1: No CSM [positive] feedback 2: No Chribba 3: No one has said one positive thing about this whole affair (those in FAVOR) of this little spiel. (And even the Trolls are silent...too busy going WTF?) 4: EVERYONE....and I mean EVERYONE has voted AGAINST this change. Usually there's a few here and there but seriously... every damn post?
And I've been playing this game for 2 years plus now.
This....this is bad.
CCP... you've seriously ****ed yourselves this time.
And I'm not in favor of this whole crap affair either. The worst thing any company can do to themselves is start to get greedy... one of the things that makes this game great...is the ability to provide gamer support through the use of open source apps or 3rd party apps.
So now we have to pay even more...for something that a dev. couldn't afford to make either. Kiss killboards goodbye...kiss api apps goodbye.
Hell...at that rate...why the hell should I pay for a game where they give the gamers the finger when it comes to things like that?
Your days are numbered CCP...count on it.
I suggest you reverse this little proposal of yours or make a compromise. ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
TharOkha
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 06:33:00 -
[1260]
bye bye EFT
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Asora Sun
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Posted - 2011.06.18 06:56:00 -
[1261]
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Gameboy4ever
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 07:07:00 -
[1262]
Yeah, really do not want to have to pay to use eve fitting tool and eve-mon and such other applications. If I or anyone else wanted to pay we would have donated, but obviously no one ever does. Anyways, my vote is for not having to pay for the apps please don't do it CCP. ;)
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Aroenn Annages
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Posted - 2011.06.18 07:10:00 -
[1263]
hmm not enough $ from boots buing plex??
try doing somthing good for eve comunity and dont do it !
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Crusher Deac
Southern Cross Incorporated Flying Dangerous
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Posted - 2011.06.18 07:15:00 -
[1264]
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This is the one of your most asinine ideas CCP. |
Zen Havok
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:06:00 -
[1265]
Just wow, Zulu. Regardless of intent, you and everyone behind this idea have managed to steer brand perception amongst your "best" customers into antartic territory. I work on Wall Street and am actually feeling better about our reputation.
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Orithien Veladorn
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:11:00 -
[1266]
Edited by: Orithien Veladorn on 18/06/2011 09:11:43 I'm concerned that CCP's decision will severely discourage 3rd-party programmers, resulting in the shutdown of many 3rd-party websites and/or programs which are currently vital to playing Eve in a bearable way. I'm pretty sure most of them won't pay and will just disappear, leaving the players without these useful tools, and left alone to deal with the intricacies of the game.
Losing that DIY side (by wanting to stick with an outdated MMO business model) is likely to have severe adverse effects on the player population, discouraged by the lack of helpful 3rd-party programs and ending up leaving the game.
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Sathynos
Caldari BSX Industries Inver Brass
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:22:00 -
[1267]
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
this -- "Say yes to pron on Concord billboards" campaing. Eve mercenaries portal: http://www.eve-mercs.com |
Bomberlocks
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:23:00 -
[1268]
I got 99 dollah but the game ain't fun
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:25:00 -
[1269]
Originally by: skurv
Second, I personally think that charging people who monetize their applications is more than appropriate. If you get real money for your product that utilizes their intellectual property, then you should have to give them money in return.
This is a moot point. I've read every single posting in this thread and I can't remember anyone questioning this part of the dev blog. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Arrs Grazznic
Poena Executive Solutions
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Posted - 2011.06.18 09:53:00 -
[1270]
Originally by: Hel O'Ween
Originally by: skurv
Second, I personally think that charging people who monetize their applications is more than appropriate. If you get real money for your product that utilizes their intellectual property, then you should have to give them money in return.
This is a moot point. I've read every single posting in this thread and I can't remember anyone questioning this part of the dev blog.
Especially as the dev blog explicitly states that you still can't charge real money for eve related tools and servcies.
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mocrt
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Posted - 2011.06.18 10:03:00 -
[1271]
Hmmm
Me thinks it's time to flag CCP as 'Red'!
I'm at a loss how this got through any form of standing back and thinking about this.
Did you guys have a meeting about this or was this a Friday afternoon...'oh what the hell' move?
I have great ideas at work at times...sometimes though...after some thought and A MEETING of others I find that my idea, while looking initially great, has an impact I didn't foresee.
See previous 40+ pages.
Hope you have a meeting soon!
Mo
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Crazy M99
Eye of God
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Posted - 2011.06.18 10:10:00 -
[1272]
Bad move ccp.
It's all about customer empowerment.
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Aedeal
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 10:26:00 -
[1273]
Apps based on the EVE API are now so ingrained with the game that the loss of them would make the game suffer, badly.
I understand that CCP wishes to keep control of their IP, that's a fair request, but not to the point where their IP funds their IP (ISK for services), so why not have two licenses?
License one: No charging real life money for anything developed using the EVE IP allowed, only free/ISK and ad-supported (assuming you get no monetary return from the ads). The ISK stays in the economy.
License two: $99 or whatever fee it turns out to be, which means you can charge the people using your app a real life fee *directly*.
TLDR: If you profit in the real world from the EVE IP, you should pay a fee to CCP for doing so. Seems fair to me.
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Queen Titania
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Posted - 2011.06.18 10:47:00 -
[1274]
Hello Sweeties
While I'm not a 3rd party developer, I do feel for them, when I think about the man/woman hours that must of went into developing these applications/websites and then they allow players to use them for free. (I thank you for this) If it wasn't for the 3rd party developers, many new players wouldn't stay with the game. I wouldn't have my account. If it wasn't for applications/website like EFT, Evemon, EveHQ, Outofeve, Chribba's site and battleclinic among others, there would of been no way for me to play. These 3rd party developers and the community is what makes Eve addictive. I hope CCP will bring themselves back down to earth (so to speak). And solve this situation as soon as possible.
Take Care and Fly Safe QT
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General Longkill
Helljumpers White Noise.
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Posted - 2011.06.18 11:30:00 -
[1275]
Edited by: General Longkill on 18/06/2011 11:31:45 Edited by: General Longkill on 18/06/2011 11:30:57
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Lets see here...
I pay subscription to play said product.... I help test up coming expansions while paying you and you NOT paying me... I develop app to HELP the eve players better UNDERSTAND and play your game to its FULLEST potential... You want me to PAY YOU to do YOUR job...
How the **** do you rationalize that???
I don't charge RL money cuz thats ******ed... ingame isk is NOT required and if people want to donate GREAT!!
so lets see...
yearly subscription fee ... check Domain registration fee ... check Hosting fees ... check hours of time used to create said apps ... check
CCP says, "please pay US so you can continue to do stuff at YOUR expense so OUR players can play our product".
guess what, you charge me a fee to produce something, Im not producing a ****ing thing. I might even unsub... so yeah you get LESS money...
go ahead, keep ****ting on your CUSTOMERS and see how far your bottom line falls you ******s.
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DAGMA20
Minmatar Nex Exercitus Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.06.18 12:02:00 -
[1276]
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This
(1.) You say its "not about the money" but if that is the case, why not have a nominal charge say $1-5, you can then do all the "identification purposes" you want and then simply return the money back to the developer, that's how pay pal identify people.
(2.) Most development I have seen is to write some form of code that reads the api and then simplifies it into methods in a library format then reference that rather than directly connecting to the api from a site or application and as CCP has stated that they will no pursue further royalties etc.. this might actually only affect a small number of developers which still sucks but if the community dontated for like 4-5 licenses then each programming language could have its own licensed dll/code and then the code can be freely distribute this to the rest of the community
Note: There are some limitations to above, but this would therefore mean websites can continue to use googleadwords, players get free apps etc...
Just my two cents
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.18 12:21:00 -
[1277]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/06/2011 12:22:03
Originally by: General LongkillLets see here...
I pay subscription to play said product.... I help test up coming expansions while paying you and you NOT paying me... I develop app to HELP the eve players better UNDERSTAND and play your game to its FULLEST potential... You want me to PAY YOU to do YOUR job...
How the **** do you rationalize that???
How?
Simple. Just read this newest devblog.
With a timing that really tells you how they rationalized that, they ask us to rewrite a piece of the API fetching mechanism of our apps. With 3 days of notice.
Because hey, we have to pay $99 for the work we do AND HTFU and hurry up, no?
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
O2xli
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 12:38:00 -
[1278]
Edited by: O2xli on 18/06/2011 12:39:39 Hello CCP,
I understand ur need to prtotect ur IP, but please don't forget that EvE will never be the same without the greate free of charge 3rd Party applications.
CCP must find a way to give 3rd Party developers a free of charge license agrrement, if they make free of charge applications.
And don't forget server hosting is not for free, for that free apllications it should be possible to accept donations ...
please make the right decision, or u will harm EvE badly when u kill the community.
regards
o2
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Adrie Atticus
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 13:19:00 -
[1279]
Edited by: Adrie Atticus on 18/06/2011 13:19:29 Only way the $99 fee will work is if CCP 1) provides full documentation for the API alongside a guaranteed availability whenever TQ is online OR 2) provides a 24/7 hosting to all the 3rd party projects no matter how much they pull in traffic or require space on the cluster.
In any other case, charging for the usage of their IP is preposterous and uncalled for in the current form.
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.18 13:58:00 -
[1280]
Originally by: Adrie Atticus
In any other case, charging for the usage of their IP is preposterous and uncalled for in the current form.
Technically, they already are; Subscription Fee. And that's as far as it should go.
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
How?
Simple. Just read this newest devblog.
With a timing that really tells you how they rationalized that, they ask us to rewrite a piece of the API fetching mechanism of our apps. With 3 days of notice.
Because hey, we have to pay $99 for the work we do AND HTFU and hurry up, no?
Don't know why the developers would even bother to re-write. This sort of 'idea' (Monetizing Everything) is like cancer. Once you are 'cured' there's still a high probability it'll come back.
How will this come back? Easy.....$5 to generate a Full API/$1 for limited. So the developers won't be the ones getting charged...the subscribers will. Blizzard did something like this with the "Play with Real ID Friends" subscription.
In case 'you [all]' don't get it CCP (and Blizzard) both just want to increase the subscription fee without actually increasing it; aka Premium Services! ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Kandreath
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:07:00 -
[1281]
I'm simply dumbfounded.
I wouldn't consider this 'draft' proposal mature enough to be aired outside the walls of your offices.
First and most importantly for me, if all I do is ask for an ISK donation or charge ISK for an application, then this is a non commercial use of the CCP/EVE IP. - Keeping in mind this could be as simple as sharing a spreadsheet with some static data and asking for a donation for compiling it. - $99US for that? - seriously...
This stuff does not come out of thin air and when I develop something, It takes away game time, so why not recoup some ISK for that?
Getting some donations for keeping a eve related website running which adds the the game experience is only fair and hardly a commercial enterprise leaching off the CCP IP. Adding an annual $99 fee for that? You will see a lot of the current websites pack up.
How on earth are you going to police the free license situation? What benefit will a free licence give CCP/the developer?
I cannot believe the following statement, "It's not about the money.." - This is coming out of the Biz Development area; is it not? - It's about making money. - Most of us a grown ups and understand that's why companies exist. if it's not about the money (for real) then the only other motivator is a legal/IP retention one. To be honest, this makes the most sense in this context...
I think this proposal has more likely bad outcomes then good ones.
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ToXicPaIN
Minmatar Strategic Solutions Ltd. Huzzah Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:34:00 -
[1282]
Originally by: Sathynos
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
this
signed
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RFLavaGirl
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:35:00 -
[1283]
Meh I dunno if I am going to Resubscribe to EVE Online.
EVE Online is a game managed by its players such as Ecnomics, people will continue to exchange for Real Life money as they please for example there is nothing that can stop that, and such, but my problem with this is simple
We pay $16.95 a month subscription fee, which is like over $120 USD per year, and now they want a $99 FEE Per year, that doesn't seem that bad for an APP, however APP's should also have a GPL Version for FREE those that don't make any type of profit at all users should be allowed to use the API, Why charge for an API Key, and or an APP Developer from NON PROFIT?
Is it because EVE Online really isn't doing that well, are they looking just to dump extra money into another game like DUST, or something?
Well honestly if I see any type of charges for any AP's I am using, or anything I am for sure not going to recommend EVE Online to anyone anymore, and I will probabily Unsubscribe because I feel that EVE is becoming a MICRO TRANSACTION game, and these type of games suck, we all know what gamers first did with All Points Bulletin when they take it over starting to rip people off for SLot guns $40 a gun when they could release a version that allowed you to buy the gun one time with 3 slots and add as you please but choose to nickel & dime this is what I see out of the future of EVE Online once their new patch goes lives they are going to charge for Character Recustomization, and all that , and this will be the release me and my friends will Unsubscribe if they do such, because we are sick and tired of game companies doing stuff like this after people enjoy it the way it is.
Sure the developers need money, but tell me how hard is it to manage an API Data Base really, and how much development really goes into EVE anyways it takes months, and months just to get a 3D room built, and characters that can move that is just way too long.
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exlore
The Grimreapers.
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:36:00 -
[1284]
Fire your lawyer CCP . , .
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xXsambookaXx
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 14:44:00 -
[1285]
Edited by: xXsambookaXx on 18/06/2011 14:44:23 CCP, if you have got the message yet. i think people are mad. (at you)
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Wahsigmar
Caldari Solarise Flares
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:45:00 -
[1286]
100 dollars on top of my ts3 charge.... sigh.... what will they think of next?
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Wahsigmar
Caldari Solarise Flares
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Posted - 2011.06.18 14:54:00 -
[1287]
Originally by: ToXicPaIN
Originally by: Sathynos
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
this
signed
Strike? Now I think know why Lolsec attacked...
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liaxolox
Gallente Jol-Nar Industries Twilight Imperium
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Posted - 2011.06.18 15:26:00 -
[1288]
Edited by: liaxolox on 18/06/2011 15:26:43 Someone tell whoever is in charge at eve-central that I have $99 a year I can part with to keep it going. Then they can monetize the site via donations or whatever and further subsidize the hosting and domain.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.18 16:14:00 -
[1289]
Originally by: liaxolox Edited by: liaxolox on 18/06/2011 15:26:43 Someone tell whoever is in charge at eve-central that I have $99 a year I can part with to keep it going. Then they can monetize the site via donations or whatever and further subsidize the hosting and domain.
They don't expect you or any single player to cover the CCP $99 fee and using ads or accepting donations are part of why they'd have to pay CCP $99 in order to keep going in ADDITION to their normal/current costs that they've been covering either with ads/donations or purely out of pocket for years.
They like several other sites that do this kind of service without demaning that players give them something first, isk/money would fall under CCP's 'commercial license' requiring them to pay $99 to CCP. All for the benefit of providing a service to EVE players when asking for nothing except the voluntary donation of isk/money, or using ads to subsidize their own costs (which is often laughable as are donations) OR make use of CCP 'IP' like EVE images/logos.
I and many others including the site owner/operators are glad you made your way here or noticed their stand against this but it would help if you bothered to read what is going on or understood it. What you've written says to me you don't get it OR expect them to demand payment BEFORE you can make use of their site/service which is NOT what they want to do. They like the VAST majority of EVE' 3rd party developers/service providers didn't get into it to make a profit but to serve the community/help players/support CCP's product.
All this crap is the fault of CCP and their defaulting to marketing/lawyers instead of using their own heads and recognizing how a 'one size fits all' license doesn't work for their vision of 'commercial' or 'free'. They very poorly communicated their idea and saw fit to not think it through OR if they did at CCP are a bunch of tossers who don't understand the community, their game, their players, or much of anything that isn't about making money.
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leyzar
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 17:02:00 -
[1290]
Originally by: ToXicPaIN
Originally by: Sathynos
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Clear no? dont take the road blizzard did....yeah you know what im talking about.
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HurryKane
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:15:00 -
[1291]
Devs of EveMon and EFT should pull their apps right now. Eve is practically unplayable for new people without those two apps, they provide functionality that should've been built into the game. Let CCP deal with the *****ing.
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Dee Lectable
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Posted - 2011.06.18 17:17:00 -
[1292]
Bad idea, CCP....
Pull UP! Pull UP!
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Relaxedtrader
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Posted - 2011.06.18 18:04:00 -
[1293]
CCP, this proposal creates incentives for people to not spend their time developing free 3rd party applications, websites and calculators which help other people play the game. Many players use these tools a great deal and appreciate the time other players spend making them available for the rest of us.
If you wish to tax certain 3rd party applications, such as gambling sites, or sites where isk profit is made as a result of entertainment value provided, that would be acceptable in my view. However, information should always be free. A reasonable tax would be a percentage of isk profit as it relates to the cost of plex in game.
ie -> 8-15% of isk profit made as a function of the median plex sale value in game, weighted with heavier values in empire space vs null like 65/35%.
So if Bob's Isk Gambling returns ~2.5 billion profit/month, and median plex sale price in empire is 380 million and median sale in null is 350 million then median price of plex as stated above is ~360 million, according the the weighted values. So charge at 8-15% of their monthly profit, the cost would be 24.016 million isk per dollar. Resulting in $8.32 per month at 8% tax or $16 at 15%.
It's reasonable to charge for-profit sites which see their profits in the form of isk. However, charging non-profit sites which make money from donations is counterproductive. Sites which deal in information, and are run on donations are a benefit to everyone in eve, including CCP. We've all been playing eve long enough to know that CCP isn't going to be able to provide all the information we need in accessible forms. Even if CCP were willing to take on that burden, it would destroy the "free market" for information sites about eve, meaning: The competition to develop excellent accessible sites which deliver information is very steep, so crap sites fall by the wayside, while excellent sites are used thousands of times daily.
Please don't create incentives for people to not deliver information about your game. The more exposure and tools is available to make the famous eve difficulty curve less intense, the more people can enjoy eve. That's really the point isn't it? Make a great game, people will come. Don't **** with eve free market information sharing.
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Al'kea
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Posted - 2011.06.18 18:58:00 -
[1294]
Edited by: Al''kea on 18/06/2011 19:06:38 Edited by: Al''kea on 18/06/2011 19:03:34 I was seriously hoping you guys would go the other direction, and finally allow MODs in your game (because honestly, my 10 year old sister could MOD the default UI and make it more functional/look better than what yous guys have done, you should see her WoW UI). But that's neither here nor there.
What you did however, was go in the complete opposite direction and choose to stiffle innovation, and create an extra hurdle by forcing a fee upon anyone who might want to make your game better by developing something useful for other players of the game. Not failing to mention, forcing Alliance websites, killboards and forums that are Ad/Donation supported to pay 99 dollars a year to avoid violating these new terms.
You guys need to SERIOUSLY re-think what you are doing here and modify these terms accordingly.
The only thing I agree with is that if they (the website/developers) Charge REAL LIFE money for an Eve related service/application TO MAKE A REAL LIFE PROFIT, then and ONLY THEN they should have to pay the Licensing Fee.
But why require the fee for sites that receive Donations to pay for hosting costs or to support operating costs and barely break even? or services that use in game Currency to run lotteries, or other community building activities? (like a nice fun Death Race through 0.0) You have got to be mentally challenged if you think it's a good idea to charge those people who perform that service FOR THE COMMUNITY.
If you are TRYING to bring in a bunch douche bag 3rd party developers who are just out to make a buck off your game and care nothing for the Eve Universe you are off to a stellar start. Maybe you guys are in it for the money too, but from what I have seen so far from the current "3rd party developers" the game already had, you are seriously ****ing them off.
If anything, this should be a REWARDS program, where Dev's who make successful aps that improve the Eve Universe are REWARDED for making the game better, not ****ing CHARGED for providing a service CCP is failing to provide on their own.
let me finish up with a nice "**** YOU TOO CCP!!"
/sarcasm I am glad you are using the succcess of the game to support the community!! /end sarcasm
I realize some of this post is constructive criticism, and others ****ed off ramblings, but it was hard to keep them seperate.
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derivativo
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 19:52:00 -
[1295]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
+1
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the plague
Anthraxus Defense Laboratories
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:30:00 -
[1296]
What 'problem' is this proposed solution supposed to address?
CCP, you need to step back and think about something. This game wasn't developed like Starcraft or some other single player title from one of the big development studios. It was developed over a period of years, with a tremendous amount of feedback and ideas from the player base, and tireless efforts on the part of many players to improve the overall EVE Online experience. Not only did many of the basic gameplay ideas that currently comprise EVE Online come from the players, but the players helped test those ideas to ensure they worked within EVE's overall framework. In addition, many players have selflessly sacrificed their time creating EVE support web sites, services, guides, and much, much more.
You didn't create EVE alone, the community helped you create it. Sorry, if that statement causes injury to your developer pride or upsets the fine people in your BizDev department, but it's true and you know it.
"We" helped you create this game and "we" certainly helped you create this community. It would be wise to remember that at your next monetization meeting because you need the players a lot more than they need you.
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Ilvari
GoonWaffe
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:35:00 -
[1297]
This is a really greedy move to profit off the work of others.
CCP already gets 17$/month/player (more than any other MMO), trying to steal money from web service developers who maybe make that much from ads total is downright despicable.
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Petar Harad
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:35:00 -
[1298]
There are heroes in the the Eve community. People that other EvE players respect (or even like) for what they did, for what they accomplished and for what they produced for the community and EvE as a whole. And often enough still do, accomplish and produce. For EvE, for the players, and even for you CCP! Just by making EvE better in many, many ways.
Most powers that be in this world know for a fact that if they do wrong to the heroes of the people they rule, those people will protest against it. If those powers persist, eventually, the people will revolt. Sure, revolts get smashed down, squelched, smothered. But when the dust has settled, the world is never the same. And hardly ever better than before. Most of the times, everybody has lost something.
CCP, you just slapped some respected and honoured people in the face. People that I, as a simple player of EvE, look up to. So I protest, as one of many others. Do not persist in this direction. Please, a revolt will end EvE. |
Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:50:00 -
[1299]
Originally by: Relaxedtrader
If you wish to tax certain 3rd party applications, such as gambling sites, or sites where isk profit is made as a result of entertainment value provided, that would be acceptable in my view.
So...instead of killing the apps you kill the contests and events?
EVE Radio's contest come to mind; I may not enter them but it's still fun to watch. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:20:00 -
[1300]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/06/2011 21:23:45 Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/06/2011 21:20:48
Originally by: Dyner
Originally by: Relaxedtrader
If you wish to tax certain 3rd party applications, such as gambling sites, or sites where isk profit is made as a result of entertainment value provided, that would be acceptable in my view.
So...instead of killing the apps you kill the contests and events?
EVE Radio's contest come to mind; I may not enter them but it's still fun to watch.
There's even more than this. Some players went to great lenghts in order to create the richest experience in the game, beyond EvE. The Market Discussion forum has some of the most high meta-gaming community, we issue bonds, loans, finance projects... all of this on the forum and external websites.
In my case in particular I am an auditor. My job is purely community oriented and is about checking people, corporations, alliances and create detailed reports about their financial health, their credibility, their skills. Auditors are a sort of Moody's or Standard & Poors, people choose to invest or not also based on our reports.
Here's an example: Linkage
As you may see, it's very colorful, with graphs, tables and lots of other stuff. And this is just the nerfed EvE forum version! On my website I host all the audits and investments available with a search engine and of course for free. Everyone can search the past investments to know how they performed, if a certain guy was trustworthy or not and so on.
Now, in order to create ANY audit I need to use:
- 8 to 12 EvE free or ISK paid software that use the EvE API. - 1 external website totally paid by me including DNS, web hosting, certificates (150 euros a year). - I am paid in ISK, usually from 30 to 80M (sometimes more) for a work of several hours. In fact it's a community profession, made to HELP the community not to become rich. Mining is often more lucrative. - Many times I also hold collateral or act as third party (basically the same profession of Chribba).
Now please tell me how I will EVER be able to keep being an auditor (after many others in the past before me) since I will:
- Pay for 8-12 now commercial EvE softwares. - Still pay 150 euros or so for my website (in fact I put some ads on it). - Also pay $99 for my website.
I am not *that* poor but I just cannot justify my family spending hundreds of euros for an audit that in average nets me 30-80M ISK (10 audits a year).
Are we meant to just DELETE professions at once like this? I am ashamed, after all these years of auditors, we have to be eradicated by a stupid fee?
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
|
Posted - 2011.06.18 21:32:00 -
[1301]
Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 18/06/2011 21:36:00 Another initiative that will be ERADICATED: charities.
Since I am decently trusted, I created a corporation that exists exclusively to collect ISK and PLEXes during the years and to forward them to CCP when an emergency relief campaign is started.
For the PLEX for Japan CCP emergency relief campaign I collected over 91B = more than RL $4000.
Sure, it's not going to rebuild the whole Japan but it's still an useful amount. In fact CCP CEO Hilmar showcased me and another charity (I am not alone) at Fanfest 2011.
With the license? All of this is DEAD, RIP.
In fact it's hosted on my website (described in the previous post) on my expense and it costed several weeks to setup all the pages and graphics. I don't earn a single ISK on this, sometimes I actually donate myself to it. I also pay the NPC fees.
Plus the promo video for the charity is also on Youtube. A video that costed me a RL week to make.
Why?
TO PROMOTE CCP.
And now I have to also pay $99 for a charity that favors CCP (PLEX donations) and even for posting on Youtube to promote CCP??????
Where is the world going to go?
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:55:00 -
[1302]
I don't know how this will turn out yet. But I think it's about time to send a sincere
"Thank you very much, Ladies and Gentlemen, much appreciated"
to all of you - our users - who came here to articulate your concerns and show your support for us 3rd party devs.
I might not speak for all 3rd party devs. But I'm sure a substantial amount of them will agree with me and are thankful for such an impressive demonstration. You, the community, are what distinguishes EVE from other games. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
Lea Ther
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:10:00 -
[1303]
Edited by: Lea Ther on 18/06/2011 22:11:35
Quote: Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license?
Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license.
That means when i sell some assets of my station trading to my friends and describe this on my webpage i have to pay additional 99 dollar a year?
Had someone who had ever played that game revied this... botch bevor you post it?!
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Bar0th
Gallente Industrial Forge Works Inc
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:17:00 -
[1304]
Edited by: Bar0th on 18/06/2011 22:20:06 I personally agree with the license fee for sites/apps which require ISK or cash for their service. If the site/app is popular enough, the ISK earned yearly will easily be worth the $99 - less than 3 PLEX. ***Edit: Remember, the fee doesn't apply to in-game services, etc like appraisals, audits and so forth, unless you host it on a 3rd party site. EVE forums will still be license-free.
For sites displaying banner ads, or accept (not require) ISK donations, I don't agree with the license fee. Some people run fansites on free webhosts which require banner ads, for which the user receives no income. Or, require submission of income from the banner ads, and if it exceeds a profit margin then require a fee (most will not even cover hosting costs with the banners - profit: 0).
The other issue I see is enforcement / consequences. If a site using the CCP IP has been around, and not actively developed in ages (yet is still functional), what happens to the site? How much time will be devoted to chasing down the owner(s) or getting the site shut down vs game development. You can say it's a different division within CCP, but that is still money going elsewhere then paying devs, support staff, QA, etc (for EVE, and other IP/assets - Dust 514, the upcoming VtM MMORPG, White Wolf Publishing).
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Taladool
Minmatar JIta-Hosting
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:31:00 -
[1305]
This is bull**** CCP, charging those of us that make ingame isk gains for services we provide is stupid. I pay for my servers with the money I would otherwise pay for my game time and use the isk I make to pay my game time. All this will do is make sure I can no longer offer services to my clients.
I have quite a few plans for Jita-Hosting but they all depend on what you guys plan to do next. guess we will have to wait and see. TS3 and TS2 servers for rent, order here |
Izanami Rei
Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:32:00 -
[1306]
I would like clarification on a few things.
Is this only for sites and services using the EVE API, In-Game Browser (I assume this means sites who somehow uses the "Trusted service"), ect, or is this simply a matter of Protecting the use of CCP's intellectual property?
For instance, I'm not entirely sure if a person needs a commercial licence for running adds on a website that has a picture of a Tengu in the background, but does not fx. use the "Image Export" or "Eve Image server."
I might underestimate the value of having ads on a website (Do people really click them?), or overestimate the cost of running a website, but the added cost might be a bit steep for some community sites.
Perhaps it would be good to establish a distinction, ads for commercial reasons (Profit) and ads for reducing expenses, in chases where ISK is not involved.
------
I would like to see apps being developed for the in-game framework. Giving us buttons so we can make transfers to services and get what we payed for automatically, rather than having to send money to a character and waiting for the owner to activate/update you account(?) on the service, or use the "trusted site" function to checking (Somehow).
Casino websites might benefit for this so they don't have to rely on cashiers being available.
------
Perhaps some of the money could go towards a development guide on using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server?
I Hope this has been productive.
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Lev Aeris
United Amarr Templar Legion Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:33:00 -
[1307]
CCP has gone full ******. Never go full ******.
CCP you were the first company I ever chose to pay a monthly fee to for online gaming. In return you have given me an ever increasing steaming pile of ****.
When I first began paying for your product, I couldn't even get into Jita on weekends due to lag.
I then experienced the first *free* addition of content that was faction warfare. I thought, "this is cool, I am paying enough in subs to buy 5 full games a year, but at least they add to their game."
In the time since I started paying you, only one of your expansions has been worth a damn and that was Apocrypha. Everything else has been a downward spiral of bad ideas and half-assed programing. Since the time around the last fanfest you seem hellbent to make your product entirely undesirable. Content remains broken and incomplete for years and you continue to pile on more broken ****.
Now you are to the point that you are ****ing up the 3rd party developers that do for free all the things that you as a company should be developing yourself. You even reference dotlan in your own **** poor documentation wiki of your product. You use paying customers to beta test your incomplete product.
**** it, there isn't really any point to listing all the stupid practices you commit to as a company, the character limit would stifle it and more importantly: YOU, CCP, ARE DEAF TO THOSE TELLING YOU.
I look forward to the day you go bankrupt and leave the area near me in Stone Mountain. That building should be rented by competent business men, not a bunch of charlatans.
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Sinfonius
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:40:00 -
[1308]
I'm glad I'm paying for eve month by month (I was buying a year at a time), because if this happens I don't know for how much longer this game will be playable, but I'm sure it won't be very long.
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Sherksilver
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Posted - 2011.06.18 22:43:00 -
[1309]
Originally by: Shonion
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Well, this is certainly my sentiment.... as someone who helps write addons, etc.. for EveHQ - man, this seriously hurts... We (Vessper and Myself) would need a frikin license - just because people sometimes donate?
Dang - so shoot me for wanting to help make the game better.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.18 23:09:00 -
[1310]
Originally by: Izanami Rei I would like clarification on a few things.
Is this only for sites and services using the EVE API, In-Game Browser (I assume this means sites who somehow uses the "Trusted service"), ect, or is this simply a matter of Protecting the use of CCP's intellectual property?
For instance, I'm not entirely sure if a person needs a commercial licence for running adds on a website that has a picture of a Tengu in the background, but does not fx. use the "Image Export" or "Eve Image server."
I might underestimate the value of having ads on a website (Do people really click them?), or overestimate the cost of running a website, but the added cost might be a bit steep for some community sites.
Perhaps it would be good to establish a distinction, ads for commercial reasons (Profit) and ads for reducing expenses, in chases where ISK is not involved.
------
I would like to see apps being developed for the in-game framework. Giving us buttons so we can make transfers to services and get what we payed for automatically, rather than having to send money to a character and waiting for the owner to activate/update you account(?) on the service, or use the "trusted site" function to checking (Somehow).
Casino websites might benefit for this so they don't have to rely on cashiers being available.
------
Perhaps some of the money could go towards a development guide on using the EVE API, In-Game Browser, Static Data Export, Image Export and Eve Image server?
I Hope this has been productive.
It seems to be an omnibus 'solution' to all things regarding EVE's IP, so it is for sites using the API, sites not using the API, sites using copyrighted images/trademarks/game content, as well as any site accepting donations/payment in any form for services. We pretty much haven't gotten a decent response to many issues, mainly we were told 'we misunderstood them', 'we are really busy with CQ', and 'we are open to discussing/reconsidering our proposal'.
From what was released a site running ads with a picture of a Tengu from EVE's site, ie market picture probably NOT a screenshot but who knows for sure would need a commercial license.
The simple fact as has been mentioned over and over is CCP's initial 'solution' is a lazy attempt to lump too many people into 2 groups with nearly no thought put into it.
Adding a framework to support apps/services would likely only justify the licensing fees to go higher and take even longer for CCP to develop it then pay to support and manage it. IMO I'd rather CCP stayed out of creating an 'app store' I don't trust them to do it right, to manage support issues and basically not screw it up. They have the right to do that but I think it would be a better option for a new game not EVE where things are pretty much established, community wise. Such a system would force 3rd party developers to probably comply to continue, pay more, or get shutdown/locked out. Advantages are obviously CCP gets much better control over the sales aspect and much more significant control of 3rd party developers' work as it would all have to be submitted to them for approval/etc.
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Larrza
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Posted - 2011.06.18 23:16:00 -
[1311]
Horrible idea, it seems CCP are turning into BLIZZARD, greedy money hungry ****ers. goodjob
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liaxolox
Gallente Jol-Nar Industries Twilight Imperium
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Posted - 2011.06.18 23:21:00 -
[1312]
Edited by: liaxolox on 18/06/2011 23:25:01 Edited by: liaxolox on 18/06/2011 23:24:15
Originally by: Kerrisone
Originally by: liaxolox Edited by: liaxolox on 18/06/2011 15:26:43 Someone tell whoever is in charge at eve-central that I have $99 a year I can part with to keep it going. Then they can monetize the site via donations or whatever and further subsidize the hosting and domain.
They don't expect you or any single player to cover the CCP $99 fee and using ads or accepting donations are part of why they'd have to pay CCP $99 in order to keep going in ADDITION to their normal/current costs that they've been covering either with ads/donations or purely out of pocket for years.
They like several other sites that do this kind of service without demaning that players give them something first, isk/money would fall under CCP's 'commercial license' requiring them to pay $99 to CCP. All for the benefit of providing a service to EVE players when asking for nothing except the voluntary donation of isk/money, or using ads to subsidize their own costs (which is often laughable as are donations) OR make use of CCP 'IP' like EVE images/logos.
I and many others including the site owner/operators are glad you made your way here or noticed their stand against this but it would help if you bothered to read what is going on or understood it. What you've written says to me you don't get it OR expect them to demand payment BEFORE you can make use of their site/service which is NOT what they want to do. They like the VAST majority of EVE' 3rd party developers/service providers didn't get into it to make a profit but to serve the community/help players/support CCP's product.
All this crap is the fault of CCP and their defaulting to marketing/lawyers instead of using their own heads and recognizing how a 'one size fits all' license doesn't work for their vision of 'commercial' or 'free'. They very poorly communicated their idea and saw fit to not think it through OR if they did at CCP are a bunch of tossers who don't understand the community, their game, their players, or much of anything that isn't about making money.
I agree that it may offend most people's sensibilities for CCP to rob us collectively at gunpoint, but I feel that it's incidental to the issue. They want to, and I am inclined to accept this at face value. I feel like this opens the door for people who wouldn't normally have the time or the monetary resources to dedicate to developing EVE related services the ability to do so. It's true that people shouldn't have to pay for what should be free, I just don't agree that we are entitled to CCP's IP for free.
On side note, I am offended by the change, as it will hurt only people who are being helpful already, but I don't think emotions should be a big deciding factor.
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Sneaky Killer
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Posted - 2011.06.18 23:33:00 -
[1313]
Originally by: Royston Townhead
Originally by: MadMax RuS
- Rmt cartels have won on all fronts around the galaxy. You're doing nothing
- Tournament's getting more and more ****ty every year, I won't be surprised if you will not broadcast group stages next year.
- Now you're trying to charge Chribba, Battleclinic\evenews24\etc owners for doing a good job and helping your universe to be better and more complete.
You're digging your own grave ccp
+1
And 1 more thing
I was intrested in dust 514, but now you can just put that right up your ass, and give us, the fed-up, now jaded capsule fan, some proper content, AND THE TRUTH. Is that too much to ask?
WOW just read that Dust 514 is free to play.....
Why should we eve players have to pay when dust players don't ?
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.19 00:41:00 -
[1314]
Originally by: liaxolox
Originally by: Kerrisone
Originally by: liaxolox Edited by: liaxolox on 18/06/2011 15:26:43 Someone tell whoever is in charge at eve-central that I have $99 a year I can part with to keep it going. Then they can monetize the site via donations or whatever and further subsidize the hosting and domain.
They don't expect you or any single player to cover the CCP $99 fee and using ads or accepting donations are part of why they'd have to pay CCP $99 in order to keep going in ADDITION to their normal/current costs that they've been covering either with ads/donations or purely out of pocket for years.
They like several other sites that do this kind of service without demaning that players give them something first, isk/money would fall under CCP's 'commercial license' requiring them to pay $99 to CCP. All for the benefit of providing a service to EVE players when asking for nothing except the voluntary donation of isk/money, or using ads to subsidize their own costs (which is often laughable as are donations) OR make use of CCP 'IP' like EVE images/logos.
I and many others including the site owner/operators are glad you made your way here or noticed their stand against this but it would help if you bothered to read what is going on or understood it. What you've written says to me you don't get it OR expect them to demand payment BEFORE you can make use of their site/service which is NOT what they want to do. They like the VAST majority of EVE' 3rd party developers/service providers didn't get into it to make a profit but to serve the community/help players/support CCP's product.
I agree that it may offend most people's sensibilities for CCP to rob us collectively at gunpoint, but I feel that it's incidental to the issue. They want to, and I am inclined to accept this at face value. I feel like this opens the door for people who wouldn't normally have the time or the monetary resources to dedicate to developing EVE related services the ability to do so. It's true that people shouldn't have to pay for what should be free, I just don't agree that we are entitled to CCP's IP for free.
On side note, I am offended by the change, as it will hurt only people who are being helpful already, but I don't think emotions should be a big deciding factor.
Above, charging people won't necessarily help those who w/o the time or monetary resources to dedicate to EVE services or apps, quite the contrary as they have to expend those resources PLUS pay CCP a fee even if they fail to make a proft. One could imagine a person paying CCP would expect to make their money back. With that idea they'd spend even MORE resources to try and increase their chances of making money as opposed to one who didn't have to pay thus fewer people would be likely to bother developing.
I see that it could have been much more eloquently constructed for those that seek to make money off of EVE's IP. Those are the people that need/should to pay the commerical license fee. Where the problem seems to exist is what and who is 'making money off EVE'. According to CCP ANY payment constitutes 'making money off EVE' even if you don't cover a fraction of your expenses and give away your product/service without requiring payment, ie voluntary donations/payment.
People who want to make money off EVE like selling an APP should definately pay CCP something, how much and how often are open to debate. People giving away their time/money/resources/etc to players shouldn't be in the exact same fee schedule as those actively working to recoup their costs and turn a profit. Much like a non profit operates to cover costs and a for profit business operates to make money they are not exactly the same, CCP's idea was to treat them the same.
Are EVE's 3rd party developer's entitled to free access to CCP's IP, no they aren't, but it is a horrible move to make this kind of change ignoring the facts I described.
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liaxolox
Gallente Jol-Nar Industries Twilight Imperium
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Posted - 2011.06.19 00:54:00 -
[1315]
Indeed, the proposed changes will raise the overhead to get started making money off of EVE. I agree that there are much better solutions than the proposed change. Perhaps less pigeonholing and more flexible licensing would be a better solution.
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Adria Eqviis
Dark Shadow Industries Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.06.19 01:41:00 -
[1316]
-2 accounts here. I've sunk enough money, I don't need to pay $99, and neither do I need to pay my subscription fee for this kind of community management.
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Gaien Haart
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Posted - 2011.06.19 02:07:00 -
[1317]
Dear CCP, get your heads out your arses. MT shop is already one thing, but this is outrageous. 3rd party developers do their stuff, for FREE to you, to make YOUR game better, to promote it, to make it easier to access for new players (and old). If anything it's you who should be paying them for crying out loud.
Start demanding money from that and you'll crash and burn. The day when this goes through will be the end of my subscription (2 accounts), and by the looks from this thread, i'm not the only one.
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Welp McCarebear
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Posted - 2011.06.19 02:46:00 -
[1318]
Originally by: Shonion
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
If you have to pay the $99 then you aren't working for free. If you were working completely for free you won't have to pay the fee. But seriously, $99 is nothing. They are giving you the opportunity to charge for your service. If you don't want to charge, or take donations, or run any other form of commercial site i.e. advert hosting, you can continue operations as normal. Quit the beyotching
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Wild Bill Kelsoe
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Posted - 2011.06.19 02:48:00 -
[1319]
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats.
I work for a software company that has a dedicated and active third party developer *ecosystem* much like eve's. It is a humbling experience to meet the people who are willing to add their time and creativity to your work for no monetary reward. It's like having guardian angels, filling in the gaps in your system that you overlooked or didn't have time to complete. We have *entire teams* of people looking after our ecosystem because we recognize it is critical to our own success.
They are different from *partners*, who make a living from your software. We have them too - they build add-ons or extensions that they charge for, or they provide consulting services. We have people looking after them as well, establishing close relationships and trying to help them in their mission.
I think in this case you have simply confused the two.
Please focus on your goal of making a great universe, and please refrain from f***ing the people who help you the most.
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Devapriya
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Posted - 2011.06.19 03:08:00 -
[1320]
CHILL THE **** OUT CCP. YOU GUYS ARE MAKING ENOUGH MONEY, DON'T TURN INTO A BUNCH OF ****ING *******S.
OR MAYBE IT'S TOO LATE?
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Ophelia Allover
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Posted - 2011.06.19 04:40:00 -
[1321]
Quote:
WOW just read that Dust 514 is free to play.....
Why should we eve players have to pay when dust players don't ?
/facepalm. Dust is a FPS. There is no reason to charge a monthly payment for a FPS. Even halo and Call of doody don't charge for their fps on a monthly basis.
I know you were trying to make a point, but please try not to wear a helmet and write your point in crayons when you do it. The cape is fine though.
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Da Death
Minmatar Relentless Enterprises Ore Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.19 05:37:00 -
[1322]
Hmm if CCP goes through with this evil idea, I have to consider new plans for my future Online Game Experience. Hard to understand after being 8 years with CCP... á BPOS: Absolution Curse Prorator Impel Vengeance T2 mods/Drones/Ammo
Since 2003. |
Soddington Smythe
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Posted - 2011.06.19 07:05:00 -
[1323]
Congratulations on torturing the term 'Great News' to such a degree. This is some strange new usage of the term with which I am unfamiliar.
Instead of addendum's,corrections and clarifications, might I suggest you go for a humble apology for a truly badly thought out idea?
I'm not a third party developer and with my lack of skills in the area never will be.I am not affiliated with or have ever spoken directly to any of these guys,and importantly I have never paid any of them a red cent But I AM a user of these third party additions to the game and without them EVE is rendered baffling and difficult to the point where players would not be staying around as long as they do. If you are looking to recoup a benefit from these guys I would suggest that you look at the benefit they already provide to CCP by making this flawed but wonderful game playable by those of us that don't have the programming and spreadsheet skills needed to make do with what is provided out of the box.
EVE Mon makes it so I can actually manage the huge skill tree needed to make an effective Toon. EFT allows me to actually have a half a chance to make a competitive PVP fitting. DOTLAN provides me with the ability to Navigate a massive and dangerous Universe. EVE24 News allows me to keep up to date with a complex Universe. EVE Radio helps me feel I'm part of a community of like minded internet space ship geeks.
All of these things are most definitely NOT available in game and if you make these guys decide to walk away by treating them as leeches you will not only be weakening my ability to play the game with the information I need,you will be weakening your ability as a company to grow the game. These guys are you saviours.They are your most loyal fans and as has been pointed out previously,they are in effect volunteer Devs who work without pay to plug some rather embarrassingly large holes left in the game by the fully paid staff at CCP.
So please,I implore you to radically rethink the whole idea of licence fees unless there is a substantial side profit being made by a third party.The only large profit I know of is RMT and THAT is both a drain of your finances as well as a blight on those of us who are playing fairly and sticking to the UELA.If the guys at EVE MON or EFT or any of the others decide they would like to go micro transactions as a small business model then by all means let them apply for an optional,(I stress OPTIONAL)licence so you get some royalties , but don't destroy your and my support base chasing a few extra bucks.
So PLEASE use the big stick on RMT sites and not on the hobby Developers.
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Z Shazih
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Posted - 2011.06.19 08:08:00 -
[1324]
hey CCP are you friggin blind? unlike the anom nerfs unlike the jb nerfs
we are all in agreement here, this is wrong and stupid, respond or yall been taking classes from greyscale?
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Takaedeatchy
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Posted - 2011.06.19 08:14:00 -
[1325]
CCP if your going to screw us, how about a reach around at least?
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Max Cooper
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Posted - 2011.06.19 08:19:00 -
[1326]
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Kronus Heilgar
Heilgar Trading Corp.
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Posted - 2011.06.19 09:05:00 -
[1327]
Stop attributing that quote to "Zero Bit" you asshats, that was my line. HERE. See? That's MY intellectual property and according to CCP's rules, we gotta protect that $h!t! ------------
EVE 3rd-Party Shutdown Party |
Kandreath
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Posted - 2011.06.19 09:09:00 -
[1328]
Ok second post, - Aiming to be more constructive.
By now you should be under no illusion how the community feels about this. - It's 99% bad. Even considering that more angry people will always respond then happy people, this should give you a clear message.
Here is my proposal, (A). For applications etc. that *request donations of ISK - allow a free licence but require registration. (B). For Applications etc. that *require ISK to activate (beyond a trial period), then require a licence and registration paid by ISK. (C). For applications that charge real money - Require real money license registration. (D). For websites that aggregate Eve content and use advertising to cover costs, (Ie Not for profit) - Free licence and registration.
Overriding Philosophy:- Charge like for like - ignore donations of ISK and not for profits? If the developer wants real money, then charge their *ss. - Allows them to make some cash and perhaps live the dream. If the developer charges in-game money, then only change them in-game money. If the developer is open to donation, then let it slide.
Please consider the following further: The benefit of these tools that are offered for free or donation is huge.
I recently participated in the buddy program. The most important thing I did to keep my buddy afloat was refer him to a handful of websites, guides and out of game applications to get them started. The great thing about this is that they are all out there and easy to get hold of and use. Within about week of his trial he saw how huge the universe was and figured he wanted to sign up just to explore it. - A win for CCP.
For a noob who is trying to get a grip on the universe, these tools/web sites are invaluable. I remember when I started, I wouldn't have had a clue without Evemon, EveMaps and the various web site guides like item-drop, eve central and battle clinic. - I did have in-game buddies too but they weren't available all the time to answer all of my dumb questions.
You think you have a problem with retention of new players now? Cut half the tools that help new players and then see what happens. The benefit to retention of new and long term players is bigger than anything you will directly get through paid licensing of donation ware.
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WhisperSilk
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Posted - 2011.06.19 10:19:00 -
[1329]
Well I wish to congradulate CCP, you have officially signed your death certificate!
I waited a few days to let it all soak in, but its still a WTF! I understand needing IP control, I don't understand self implosion. You really think because you got an exclusive deal with sony for Dust that your company is unkillable? Kill EVE, Dust dies!
Aside from all people like Chribba and others have done for your gaming community, and believe it or not your bottom line, the fact that you are trying to charge for information you have been giving away free for 8 years, makes me chuckle.
Now on to why I really replied, CCP ZULU, HOW CONDESENDING CAN YOU BE? Blow smoke up my ass sure, but to outritely call me illiterate... WTF! I know how to read English, you were kind enough to translate into Russian and German, and still, somehow, come to the conclusion I just misunderstood. No, you are the ones being ambiguous, you give us such general terms, and feel as though your really helping this community. Wanna help? Do your job!
None of this actually matters now, I have about 2 weeks left on my accounts before annual subsciption time... -2 accounts here. Oh and the python based, android app I was just producing for the fun of it, deleted! Its all ok though, I should prooly spend more time with the wife and kids anyhow, instead of on a half "working as intended game."
And to be honest, why would I as a dev. put any money into an API that gives extremely limited data? If I have to pay to develop your product, I'm not onboard anymore! To think I thought I was apart of this awesome community, run by a cool company! Whelp, reality check! Community cool, check, company not, check!
Good luck CCP! In my experience, this type of mistake in PR is irreversible.
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Chertan
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Posted - 2011.06.19 10:25:00 -
[1330]
Originally by: Soddington Smythe Congratulations on torturing the term 'Great News' to such a degree. This is some strange new usage of the term with which I am unfamiliar.
+1 for that:)
On a more 'constructive' manner, how about sending that bizdev-team back to Sony?
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Jovanna Poljus
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Posted - 2011.06.19 12:26:00 -
[1331]
Edited by: Jovanna Poljus on 19/06/2011 12:28:12
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
this.
CCP, put down the ****ing crack pipe and listen to your community!
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar Stop attributing that quote to "Zero Bit" you asshats, that was my line. HERE. See? That's MY intellectual property and according to CCP's rules, we gotta protect that $h!t!
*edit, gotta protect teh IP's! (even if it means losing your customer base)
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.06.19 13:03:00 -
[1332]
Originally by: HurryKane Devs of EveMon and EFT should pull their apps right now. Eve is practically unplayable for new people without those two apps, they provide functionality that should've been built into the game. Let CCP deal with the *****ing.
I think that is exactly what CCP wants them to do. It's obvious to me that CCP wants to monetize every aspect of Eve. Now that they are requiring a fee for people who develop aspects of the game outside of the client rest assured that it will result in a mass exodus of good community developers and their applications with them. CCP can then swoop in and provide the exact same 'features' in game for Aurum.
The sad part is that we pay a fee to play this game. Now they want us to pay more. When the community developers leave, we will pay more because frankly, Eve is unplayable without external game apps to make up for the lack of game developer creativity.
I'll not pay CCP one cent more than I already do. Either directly or indirectly.
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Emma Royd
Caldari Maddled Gommerils
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Posted - 2011.06.19 13:20:00 -
[1333]
I've seen it all now, CCP profiteering from the people who help their players.
Here's a hint CCP, take the gun out of your holster next time before you pull the trigger - that way you might not shoot yourself in the foot again .
C'mon, it's a lousy 100 bucks a year, how much are you expecting to raise from this? I love evemon, evemeep, and many other programs that utilise the API, it makes my time in eve easier and more enjoyable.
The developers of these applications are mainly hobbyists, will more than likely have to pay for hosting, then it's only fair that they accept donations to help them cover their costs and encourage them to keep developing their software to keep up to date with the changes made in game. +_+
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity |
insanebe
Caldari draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.19 13:32:00 -
[1334]
Originally by: Kandreath Ok second post, - Aiming to be more constructive.
By now you should be under no illusion how the community feels about this. - It's 99% bad. Even considering that more angry people will always respond then happy people, this should give you a clear message.
Here is my proposal, (A). For applications etc. that *request donations of ISK - allow a free licence but require registration. (B). For Applications etc. that *require ISK to activate (beyond a trial period), then require a licence and registration paid by ISK. (C). For applications that charge real money - Require real money license registration. (D). For websites that aggregate Eve content and use advertising to cover costs, (Ie Not for profit) - Free licence and registration.
Overriding Philosophy:- Charge like for like - ignore donations of ISK and not for profits? If the developer wants real money, then charge their *ss. - Allows them to make some cash and perhaps live the dream. If the developer charges in-game money, then only change them in-game money. If the developer is open to donation, then let it slide.
Please consider the following further: The benefit of these tools that are offered for free or donation is huge.
I recently participated in the buddy program. The most important thing I did to keep my buddy afloat was refer him to a handful of websites, guides and out of game applications to get them started. The great thing about this is that they are all out there and easy to get hold of and use. Within about week of his trial he saw how huge the universe was and figured he wanted to sign up just to explore it. - A win for CCP.
For a noob who is trying to get a grip on the universe, these tools/web sites are invaluable. I remember when I started, I wouldn't have had a clue without Evemon, EveMaps and the various web site guides like item-drop, eve central and battle clinic. - I did have in-game buddies too but they weren't available all the time to answer all of my dumb questions.
You think you have a problem with retention of new players now? Cut half the tools that help new players and then see what happens. The benefit to retention of new and long term players is bigger than anything you will directly get through paid licensing of donation ware.
personally i think liscences should be granted on a volume base eg
300 api key liscence = free
300 to 2000 = $10 a year
2000 to 5000 = etc.etc.etc
that way you ensure the websites that don't get used that much or are just startingt out don't vanish
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maslakob
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Posted - 2011.06.19 13:38:00 -
[1335]
what a ******ed idea. dont do this its suicide for you. Eve is hard enough to teach new people ... imagine if we didn't have EFT evemon eve central etc etc
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Miharu Akachi
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Posted - 2011.06.19 14:06:00 -
[1336]
Dear CCP.
Did you think with your brain or what, You should hire a better finace team who want to make this a paid fee. People who do this kind of service they are making your game better. And this is what you give them back??
"CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers " You call this a great news? F**k off
The game is hard and u make it harder..
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Nero Djin
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Posted - 2011.06.19 15:19:00 -
[1337]
The 3rd party apps are covering areas that you CCP are too lazy, inept or otherwise unable to do. Doing so they add tremendous value to your game. I am totally fed up with the way you are treating valuable community members. I was considering to resub for a year, but this thread really got me thinking.
You CCP not only have a completly selfish motif to do this, you also do not let anyone else check this document before release. You have a thing called the CSM you also have desk buddies, check before you post. Also consider not giving thread posting privileges to every asshat programmer out there without a PR course and some actual experience in the field first. The worst part: in the face of 32 pages of rage 1 dev manages to throw in some bull**** about how we misunderstand and how the wording in the original document is bad.
I demand an apology from ccp directed to the people who have made all these awesome 3rd party applications. You also might want to include them in the process, how hard can it be? A mail from someone with ccp in their game name will get an answer.
TL:DR
quality control, do not publish ****. lessons in pr for anyone who posts as ccp. apology to 3rd party developers - ur 6 years employed employee at the ccp got paid for those 6 years. 6 years of 3rd party app development who did a lot of nice stuff for the community has a smaller screen then i do. HE DOES NOT GET PAID. but he does deserve RESPECT.
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Terra Mikael
Horizon Dynamics
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Posted - 2011.06.19 15:27:00 -
[1338]
Dumbest idea I've heard in a long time.
3rd party apps make your half-@$$ed game playable. Without eft and evemon how many players are willing to set down in MS excel and hash it out? Especially when features like long term skill plans and test-fitting should have been an integral part of the game.
I'll never understand how you guys do your little meetings and somehow unanimously decide that shooting yourself in the foot is somehow a good idea, but you seem to do it quite a lot.
Signature removed for evading the profanity filter and trolling. Zymurgist |
Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
|
Posted - 2011.06.19 16:02:00 -
[1339]
CCP still cowering in their castle as the angry mob pounds at the portcullis? ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Maxizinian
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Posted - 2011.06.19 17:27:00 -
[1340]
Edited by: Maxizinian on 19/06/2011 17:28:57 I've got my pitchfork and have lit my torch. Where do we find CCP?
CCP knew this idea wasn't going to be well received from the beginning. That's why they started it off, "CCP Atlas has some great news for 3rd party developers in his latest dev blog". Great news? For whom? They're trying to make it sound great because they think we're a bunch of mindless drone players.
CCP @ Daily Meeting: "Well, guys. As long as we say it's GREAT then they'll believe us". ----- Maxizinian
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Serkanay
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.06.19 17:40:00 -
[1341]
I would like to protest the CCP
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Shimokurasaka
Therapy.
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Posted - 2011.06.19 18:05:00 -
[1342]
"Originally by: Zero Bit You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats"
Your logic is flawed ccp, and I hope with all my heart that you reverse this choice since it will punish this game with many lost subscriptions...
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WeirdCulture
Gallente VEGA Space System Engineering
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Posted - 2011.06.19 18:10:00 -
[1343]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Yogurt! Yogurt! I hate Yogurt! Even with Strawberries. |
KingHybrid
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Posted - 2011.06.19 18:21:00 -
[1344]
First micro transactions with the character stuff, and now this. CCP is trying to nickel and dime just like everyone else at this point.
Pathetic.
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MacaMan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.19 19:07:00 -
[1345]
And nota single answer/statement/lie/whatever from ga(y)me masters on this topic. |
Zero Bit
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Posted - 2011.06.19 20:08:00 -
[1346]
I'd appreciate this, too. I do not feel comfortable with this false reference.
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar Stop attributing that quote to "Zero Bit" you asshats, that was my line. HERE. See? That's MY intellectual property and according to CCP's rules, we gotta protect that $h!t!
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Kronarn
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.19 21:01:00 -
[1347]
Upon reading this post after the "Barbie and Ken" pay to dress up announcement for characters I was a little frustrated. All I've seen coming from the last few announcements from CCP is a little bit of greed to be honest, the company as a whole are trying to be like companies such as Apple inc (where as apple have a good reason for the licence as it's heavily maintained and a very high percentage of applications that use apples software/coding are not for apple services, ie facebook, google, groupon, twitter)
Why in the hell would you want to charge $99 to people who do nothing but help IMPROVE your software?
I for one are a developer and I already pay a licence fee to APPLE $99 a year, so basically it will cost me $196 to create an app for users to have available to them as a 3rd party option?
I'm pretty taken back by this suggestion. Also on the other side of the spectrum, you have to remember current and future developers take time out of eve game play to be able to create/develop and extend such applications/services, to which they currently pay $15 per account for which is $180 per YEAR for ONE account (do the maths for people who have multiple accounts, this is just plain greed).
So in the long run, you're asking your customers to pay $367 per year if they want to have one account and also be able to develop nice 3rd party applications/services for CCP's customers.
I understand CCP do release FREE updates throughout the year, but in all fairness, the releases are generally very buggy and some things have taken months and months to be fixed, yet you want to still charge customers full price for the monthly fee.
You need to understand fair business in my opinion, not one application or service that is provided by members for eve is a "fast creation" they take hours/days/months of developers time to create (which becomes lost time in game) to which is created to give your customers a better experience in game.
Most developers don't even make money from creations they say "Please donate isk in game" if you are happy with this etc, and I'm sure not many people do receive any decent donations that comes close to their time out of eve working on development.
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Scarlet Vixen
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Posted - 2011.06.19 21:28:00 -
[1348]
Hey,
I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.
If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.
This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.
I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.
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Xel Set
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Posted - 2011.06.19 21:49:00 -
[1349]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Trying to control one's brand is one thing. Trying to control what buyers/players/customers/consumers do (quite legitimately) with your brand is something entirely different. These attempts at rgregious overreaching are becoming far more prevalent among brand owners, over the years, with game designers leading the pack. Basic failure to understand property rights and intellectual property rights, much less the significant distinctions between them, are in part to blame, not to mention simple imprudence.
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Lord Googoo
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Posted - 2011.06.19 21:52:00 -
[1350]
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen Hey,
I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.
If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.
This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.
I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.
After 45 pages of people explaining it, you really don't get it?
I agree, people who charge real world money for their apps/services need to pay for some sort of license as they are profiting off of CCP's IP.
However, ISK ≠ real world money. You can convert money to PLEX, which can be converted into ISK, but you cannot convert ISK into $$$$$ unless you RMT. There IS a difference between charging $ for services like Strategic Maps and charging ISK.
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Crexa
Star Mandate
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Posted - 2011.06.19 22:14:00 -
[1351]
I posted in another thread about this, but i lost track of it. Anyway.
If your looking to monetize something, why not logos/decals for alliance/corps? Or hash marks/stars/icons for number of kills in said ship.
Thes are things earned in EVE, but as a way to show those stats off or display your corp/alliiance pride, something that you can make money on. You also can dictate placement which reduces the "neon pink" ship which I think were all against.
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Scarlet Vixen
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Posted - 2011.06.19 22:25:00 -
[1352]
Originally by: Lord Googoo
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen Hey,
I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.
If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.
This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.
I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.
After 45 pages of people explaining it, you really don't get it?
I agree, people who charge real world money for their apps/services need to pay for some sort of license as they are profiting off of CCP's IP.
However, ISK ≠ real world money. You can convert money to PLEX, which can be converted into ISK, but you cannot convert ISK into $$$$$ unless you RMT. There IS a difference between charging $ for services like Strategic Maps and charging ISK.
But you can spend ISK to buy PLEX in order to pay for your account, which I would imagine for CCP translates into real-world-money. Whether you're spending $5 for an iPhone app to check your skills, or paying 350 million ISK to buy $15 dollers worth of game time, in the end it translates into or potentially into (but CCP has to be able to control both under one dynamic) real-world-money for the seller, who is benefiting from the transaction.
So no, ISK = Money for CCP if PLEX is involved. Just because someone else bought the PLEX, now the seller of the app is "buying" that plex of the original purchasers, it's still money. And since CCP can't tell if the seller is going to buy a PLEX with the ISK they've earned from ISK received from an app, then they'd have to charge everyone to keep it standardized and to potentially cover said scenario.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.19 22:57:00 -
[1353]
Quote:
This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex)
This is just terrible. As former SW developer who worked with similar licenses, this makes no sense at all.
If I am in for the money, I can't care the less to get some lame PLEX.
Even in case I get paid, if I setup a business I need to cover 200+ euros of website cost a year, plus I will have to start a company (law enforces this) for 500 euros and expect > 40% of the income to be taxed plus > 700 euros every 3 months forcibly paid for pension.
Now let's guess how much of this you do by selling some lame "app" for such a ridicolously small playerbase made of students and PLEX grinders (= well different than rich Apple rich fat turkey customer base).
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Joshke
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:05:00 -
[1354]
Sorry, but this "great" idea is simply bull****.
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Macks Artilius
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:22:00 -
[1355]
"Good news, everyone. Tomorrow you'll be making a delivery to Ebola 9, the virus planet."
- Professor Hubert Farnsworth
This right here? This is not good news. Zulu, I know you're "swamped" right now, but if we've "misunderstood" due to "confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document" then maybe you could take just 5 minutes to explain what exactly these misunderstandings are? Because there is a lot of poo-flinging being directed at your employers in this thread and I really think it would be in your interest to clear this up ASAP!
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Gene Windstar
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:27:00 -
[1356]
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Originally by: Lord Googoo
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen Hey,
I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.
If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.
This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.
I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.
After 45 pages of people explaining it, you really don't get it?
I agree, people who charge real world money for their apps/services need to pay for some sort of license as they are profiting off of CCP's IP.
However, ISK ≠ real world money. You can convert money to PLEX, which can be converted into ISK, but you cannot convert ISK into $$$$$ unless you RMT. There IS a difference between charging $ for services like Strategic Maps and charging ISK.
But you can spend ISK to buy PLEX in order to pay for your account, which I would imagine for CCP translates into real-world-money. Whether you're spending $5 for an iPhone app to check your skills, or paying 350 million ISK to buy $15 dollers worth of game time, in the end it translates into or potentially into (but CCP has to be able to control both under one dynamic) real-world-money for the seller, who is benefiting from the transaction.
So no, ISK = Money for CCP if PLEX is involved. Just because someone else bought the PLEX, now the seller of the app is "buying" that plex of the original purchasers, it's still money. And since CCP can't tell if the seller is going to buy a PLEX with the ISK they've earned from ISK received from an app, then they'd have to charge everyone to keep it standardized and to potentially cover said scenario.
You do realize thats a complete load right? Plex have already been paid for in real funds which amount to more than a quarterly subscription and the same as a monthly one, heck overall many people sub in 3 month or more intervals, making plexus more profitable for ccp. How in any way do they lose money when people fund with plex cards, heck even if these people made enough for a plex (which I might add most don't), the increased demand for them is overall a higher profit for ccp (again assuming they sub for at least 3 month blocks), and worse case they still have made the amount they would have if the person hadn't used a pled and it wasn't bought in the first place. Pled are not real money under any situation, they can be lost just like any other item, which if they do have a real cash value after redemption makes it legaly flaky for ccp to make them destroy on drop, essentualy voiding prepaid services. Are you suggesting my dread booster has cash value if a person buys it with a donation and sells it high to buy a plex?
Also, the isk is there one way or another as someone had to gain it, heck, miners can fund on plex with enough work, a CEO can use Corp tax to buy them, but somehow when it's related to donations it's real money?
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Goldnut Sachs
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Posted - 2011.06.20 00:23:00 -
[1357]
Kronus Heilgar Heilgar Trading Corp. said
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
now we need that in german and russian too
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Sherksilver
|
Posted - 2011.06.20 00:28:00 -
[1358]
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen Hey,
I don't see the big deal. I noticed some of you reference EFT and EVE Mon, those are NON-COMMERCIAL applications, meaning they pay nothing (as long as they stop asking for donations, or CCP changes the current agreement, but I could understand if they didn't, money is money regardless of where it comes from) they just have to agree to the terms for using the EVE licensed materials.
If you're running a corp site, or alliance site you can use the materials without need for a license as long as it's a private site, so you can keep running your kill boards, etc.
This is aimed at applications that do charge, like the Strategic Maps (which are great) and charge real money and EVE Commander that charges ISK. If you're going to create a commercial app and make money or isk (since isk translates into money these days by converting them to plex) it makes perfect sense and is very reasonable. CCP used to charge $100,000 a year + royalties, so this change is huge and will benefit a variety of developers.
I think it's great and I applaud CCP for making their licensing structure down to a level where it opens up the possibility to everyone, even a High School student can afford $99 a year when they're potentially going to make 10x or more on their app.
The problem with this is the clause that states 'Accepts Donations' whether you ASK for them or NOT. - Kinda tough that, and painful ta boot.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.20 00:58:00 -
[1359]
So, in preparation for what seems would be the inevitable I asked CCP what the refund policies are on my accounts... and they began disabling them. :x
I guess I know where I stand, after all.
Good luck and fly safe to all (jic they kill off *all* my accounts). Was good playing with you all and I enjoyed the many years I got to give back to the player community in many small ways. While I hope this is not the end of me, clearly CCP didn't want my business to begin with.
I guess I was too 'vocal' for them this time. :P
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Ori Empress
United Systems of the Allegiance Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.06.20 01:12:00 -
[1360]
So...in other words, you've basically stabbed chribba in the back, along with the many other eve community members who develop services and apps for you...for free!?
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Mr Rewrite
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Posted - 2011.06.20 01:20:00 -
[1361]
Originally by: Sherksilver
The problem with this is the clause that states 'Accepts Donations' whether you ASK for them or NOT. - Kinda tough that, and painful ta boot.
and in a world of scumbag accountants running businesses (eg AT&T & Eisner when he was at Disney)....a CCP employee would be ordered to make a donation once a year to all sites they can google "Eve Online" with, thus assuring a steady income from "profit" websites.
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Scarlet Vixen
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Posted - 2011.06.20 01:59:00 -
[1362]
Originally by: Gene Windstar
You do realize thats a complete load right? Plex have already been paid for in real funds which amount to more than a quarterly subscription and the same as a monthly one, heck overall many people sub in 3 month or more intervals, making plexus more profitable for ccp. How in any way do they lose money when people fund with plex cards, heck even if these people made enough for a plex (which I might add most don't), the increased demand for them is overall a higher profit for ccp (again assuming they sub for at least 3 month blocks), and worse case they still have made the amount they would have if the person hadn't used a pled and it wasn't bought in the first place. Pled are not real money under any situation, they can be lost just like any other item, which if they do have a real cash value after redemption makes it legaly flaky for ccp to make them destroy on drop, essentualy voiding prepaid services. Are you suggesting my dread booster has cash value if a person buys it with a donation and sells it high to buy a plex?
Also, the isk is there one way or another as someone had to gain it, heck, miners can fund on plex with enough work, a CEO can use Corp tax to buy them, but somehow when it's related to donations it's real money?
The isk is there one way or another, and miners can fund plex with enough work, but weÆre not talking about miners, weÆre talking about someone buying plexes by selling a product or service.
And it isnÆt a complete load.
If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatÆs twelve months lost revenue from that pilot. Yes someone else bought the plex already, but if pilot A didnÆt sell his app perhaps he would have had to resort to paying for a regular subscription. Or he had to mine or rat to build up the isk to buy the plex, in either case those other two other methods didnÆt require the pilot to sit back and make money in the form of plexes while sitting back selling his commercial app.
It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnÆt buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring.
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Jubal Sexton
Minmatar Liberty Storm Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.06.20 02:10:00 -
[1363]
Geez remember when the internet was young and there were thousands of Star Trek fan-sites? Some were quite awesome! The old adage was Star Trek and p_*n built the internet. Then Viacom/Paramount decided if they could just shut all these unauthorized fan-sites down for copyright infringements. That they could get all this traffic directed to Startrek.com and make a whole bunch more money. Of course this boneheaded move virtually killed the entire Star Trek franchise in the process! (I know there were other factors involved cough..Berman, Braga...cough) but they eliminated a massive host of free advertising on the internet, alienating their fan-base to boot! Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... I'm just sayin...
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Brujo Loco
Amarr Brujeria Teologica
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Posted - 2011.06.20 03:04:00 -
[1364]
Woa guys, Since when the US GREED managed to set sail to ICELAND????
No really guys, WTH you smoking? Are you eating dried shark ****ed on, rotting and then placing it in a Hamburguer bun with fries and Coke?
I'm amazed at you guys, no really, you suddenly hired what? a Marvelous team of "Superior Business Analysts" that decided this was the best move for the company? LOL
Are you insane? Are you all so out of touch with the community that believe this CRAP was actually good? I'm a Cynicist and overall I have a high tolerance from some of the Management "wrecking hits" that have come lately from CCP from the past couple years, but this really hits the LOWEST OF THE LOW.
No really, Great idea? So in short you just want your game to implode into a faceless entity of fast food convenience with this ABSURD out of touch and reality moves? Seriously guys, I'm a Psychologist, I can give you free personal advice if you ever want it regarding your anger and lack of foresight issues, destroy your cars, your silly Plasma TV's, but why EVE?
I'm serious, If you ever come to Panama I can treat all of you in an orderly fashion , because honestly, there's something wrong with you all.
After years simply and tacitly accepting some of your most ridiculous ideas, honestly, this has been the most absurd, idiotic, and severely badly executed "managerial" decision you guys ever made.
I know the forums might seem like a small pond compared to the playerbase, but guys please reconsider the sheer absuridity of what you are proposing. This is no longer a game that generates revenue bussines, this is now a business that revenues the game.
For all that matters why dont you all begin selling fully fitted ships and Skill packages that set your skill sets for a week to 5 for a nice combo price of just 14.99$? Or how about 19.99 for all Race skills to 5 for 1 month? Hey even better, 1$=1000 Skill points, that way we can all buy high skill characters right away and begin "AMARR LEVEL 5 skillset LFG to farm SANSHAS" in local.
No seriously, you guys so OUT OF TOUCH of whatever community you think you "have" that Im worried real CCP devs are being kept locked in a dark basement and spoonfed fake forum post saying we all love this.
Hey, careful, you might choke on the 100$ bills if you try to gobble them too fast. meh
---Archipelago Theory---
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Sijakta Ho Pakrsh
Sultanate of Rum
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Posted - 2011.06.20 03:46:00 -
[1365]
"The smell of greed will betray you when you speak as much as the onions you have eaten."
~Rumi
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Da Death
Minmatar Relentless Enterprises Ore Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.20 04:39:00 -
[1366]
Originally by: Sijakta Ho Pakrsh "The smell of greed will betray you when you speak as much as the onions you have eaten."
~Rumi
+1 á BPOS: Absolution Curse Prorator Impel Vengeance T2 mods/Drones/Ammo
Since 2003. |
Lord Googoo
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:27:00 -
[1367]
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
The isk is there one way or another, and miners can fund plex with enough work, but weÆre not talking about miners, weÆre talking about someone buying plexes by selling a product or service.
And it isnÆt a complete load.
If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatÆs twelve months lost revenue from that pilot. Yes someone else bought the plex already, but if pilot A didnÆt sell his app perhaps he would have had to resort to paying for a regular subscription. Or he had to mine or rat to build up the isk to buy the plex, in either case those other two other methods didnÆt require the pilot to sit back and make money in the form of plexes while sitting back selling his commercial app.
It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnÆt buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring.
I don't want to get into a huge discussion so this will be my last post.
"It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnÆt buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring."
I see what you're trying to say, however, Pilot A creating an app and receiving ISK for said app is still not the same as Pilot A creating an app and charging people REAL WORLD MONEY. Get that out of your head.
Pilot A creating an app is no different than someone like Chribba charging for a third-party service for ISK. Whether Pilot A or someone like Chribba/Darknesss/Grendell chooses to pay for their playtime with PLEX bought with ISK is not in violation of anything as far as I know.
CCP is not losing funds from Pilot A if he or she chooses to buy PLEX. These PLEX are already bought and paid for by someone else. Pilot A has every right to use ISK he made from an app to buy PLEX for game time (as long as Pilot A did NOT charge real money for said app). Just like any miner/trader who made ISK playing the market in-game has the right to buy PLEX.
What is the statute of limitations with something like this? Someone creates an app and receives donations in the form of ISK and they must pay a $99/year fee? Well offering a third-party service is part of the supercapital trade, so all those third-party services need to pay $99/year? What about people who offer a freight service? Do they still need to pay $99/year? What about mercenary alliances/corps? Do they need to pay $99/year for offering a service?
No matter how you want to spin it, ISK has no real world value. I can't go to my local grocery store and expect to pay them in ISK. Once those GTCs have been converted into PLEX, they have lost their real world value and instead are considered in-game goods.
Again... ISK ≠ Real world currency. Therefore, CCP shouldn't charge people real world currency for ISK obtained from creating apps or any other in-game services.
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Laser Purification
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Posted - 2011.06.20 06:03:00 -
[1368]
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatÆs twelve months lost revenue from that pilot.
Yes. But one pilot is pretty much irrelevant when compared to the huge number of people who had a better Eve experience / didn't unsubscribe due to this popular addition the individual made. And it must be popular because most of the people adding to Eve are probably doing so at a loss.
Watching CCP's fumbling attempts at community building and game design is about 40% of my enjoyment of Eve. I'm glad they haven't disappointed.
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Mystarra
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2011.06.20 06:19:00 -
[1369]
Anyone want to make bets on when they are going to announce that they are switching to an F2P structure? Thanks, Mystarra |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.20 06:42:00 -
[1370]
Prison inmates to new arrival: ôHi there and welcome to prison. We have great news. During your stay here we will be introducing you to a new and exciting program in the showers. ItÆs called, Drop the soap and get a surprise. We think youÆll find it to be designed for maximum stimulus and believe youÆll find it enhances your prison experience greatly.ö
Right now EVE is a level playing field for people willing to pay CCP a subscription fee. Introducing a program which allows third party developers to charge real money potentially (read that as probably) means that players will have to pay more real money to remain competitive in the game.
Most EVE players I know are poor and are not going to pay more than they already do. Create a situation in which they have to pay more and more simply to remain competitive and theyÆll just find something else to do.
You say you just want to protect yourselves? Fine. Issue licenses for free. A license does not have to allow developers to charge real money or any other kind of money. CCP you should be paying these people yourselves for doing the work you should have done.
IÆve only played this game for five years, but I have never seen a response like this. Forty-six pages and growing. People I like, people I dislike, people who dislike me, idiots and very intelligent peopleààààà..almost every one of them think this is the worst idea for a game company theyÆve ever heard.
-Windjammer
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Sinfonius
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Posted - 2011.06.20 07:29:00 -
[1371]
Edited by: Sinfonius on 20/06/2011 07:29:30 Is there something like a raspberry award but for video game companies? If so we should nominate CCP. They are a shoo in. |
estelle autinos
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Posted - 2011.06.20 08:49:00 -
[1372]
CCP you seem to be doing a wonderfull job of pi**ing off your clientele in the last few months.
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Ebon Rue
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.20 09:08:00 -
[1373]
Notch from Minecraft tried to charge $5 for a license fee for people to use their API. The intent was to weed out non serious garbage mod makers, not to make more money. Regardess, the backlash from the community was so intense he quickly changed his mind and offered it for free, even though it will be creating more work for his company.
And that was just a $15 single purchase game with a $5 license fee.... |
Set's Chaos
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Posted - 2011.06.20 09:43:00 -
[1374]
I'm excited for what this could be. Eve-Metrics and Capsuleer might still be around if you had acted on this sooner. With that said, though, the way you're going about this is all wrong. From the particular timing, to the way it was revealed, and down to the very way it's being instituted is just wrong. The way I feel has been posted again and again here, and probably written better than I can. I'd just like to add that if any of the apps/websites I use (Evemon, EveHQ, EveFT, Eve-central and Aura) go by the wayside because of this half-baked plan, that'll be it for me and Eve.
As an aside; if you're so "swamped" with Incarna, this was a bad idea to release this information now. |
Wivina Kane
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Posted - 2011.06.20 11:56:00 -
[1375]
i have huge respect for the developers of apps for this game, i use evemon and evehq like i suspect 99% of the players i know.
please don't do this ccp. these guys have worked hard and have improved the gaming experience for us all, in fact perhaps ccp should be paying them for their hard work.
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Haruki Tekitsu
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Posted - 2011.06.20 12:06:00 -
[1376]
I wasn't going to post but Im going to post in support of developers. CCP you are a little Icelandic company with a small but so far loyal customer base. Do not get delusions of grandeur you are not Sony. Making a deal with Sony does not make you a world player on that scale.
Great news from, Me. CCP you have just damaged yourself badly. You think we are children because we play your game? We as customers can quite simply stop and move on. Addiction factor does go away in a few days. Now as a paying customer I want you here and now to answer the concerns about this matter. Swamped is not good enough an answer from a fee taking company. As for misunderstandings in a document, OK here goes I didn't want to mention this but I am legally trained with higher English qualifications. I understood what you are trying to do quite well. That excuse will not wash with me.
Now was that great news to you? NO! It works both ways this great news game.
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Goldnut Sachs
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Posted - 2011.06.20 12:07:00 -
[1377]
Originally by: Scarlet Vixen
Originally by: Gene Windstar
You do realize thats a complete load right? Plex have already been paid for in real funds which amount to more than a quarterly subscription and the same as a monthly one, heck overall many people sub in 3 month or more intervals, making plexus more profitable for ccp. How in any way do they lose money when people fund with plex cards, heck even if these people made enough for a plex (which I might add most don't), the increased demand for them is overall a higher profit for ccp (again assuming they sub for at least 3 month blocks), and worse case they still have made the amount they would have if the person hadn't used a pled and it wasn't bought in the first place. Pled are not real money under any situation, they can be lost just like any other item, which if they do have a real cash value after redemption makes it legaly flaky for ccp to make them destroy on drop, essentualy voiding prepaid services. Are you suggesting my dread booster has cash value if a person buys it with a donation and sells it high to buy a plex?
Also, the isk is there one way or another as someone had to gain it, heck, miners can fund on plex with enough work, a CEO can use Corp tax to buy them, but somehow when it's related to donations it's real money?
The isk is there one way or another, and miners can fund plex with enough work, but weÆre not talking about miners, weÆre talking about someone buying plexes by selling a product or service.
And it isnÆt a complete load.
If pilot A creates an app and makes enough ISK to fund playing EVE through plexes for 12 months, thatÆs twelve months lost revenue from that pilot. Yes someone else bought the plex already, but if pilot A didnÆt sell his app perhaps he would have had to resort to paying for a regular subscription. Or he had to mine or rat to build up the isk to buy the plex, in either case those other two other methods didnÆt require the pilot to sit back and make money in the form of plexes while sitting back selling his commercial app.
It comes down to, pilot A created an app, pilot A sold that app or service, because of that pilot A either made money or made isk that was converted to money in the form of buying $15 plex. And even if s/he didnÆt buy plexes, CCP has to account for it occurring.
jesus.holy.christ. stop right there turn off your computer and stop thinking before you hurt yourself.
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the treasurer
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Posted - 2011.06.20 12:09:00 -
[1378]
i'd like to add my voice to the chorus.
this idea seems to me soooooo crazy...
reflect CCP, reflect.
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Katrina Cortez
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Posted - 2011.06.20 12:40:00 -
[1379]
Originally by: Mystarra Anyone want to make bets on when they are going to announce that they are switching to an F2P structure?
Sorry not trying to be a troll but Eve is already F2P with in-game plex and I really dont think that format is going to change any time soon.
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Vinny P
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Posted - 2011.06.20 12:50:00 -
[1380]
So basically the only 3rd party apps i dont see stunting/stopping the development of is going to be macro bots. Good work fellas!
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.20 13:47:00 -
[1381]
Originally by: Vinny P So basically the only 3rd party apps i dont see stunting/stopping the development of is going to be macro bots. Good work fellas!
It won't have any effect on RMT or phishing sites either, you know just those pesky fans who contribute to the EVE IP by making the game playable and helping build the community.
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Callean Drevus
Caldari Icosahedron Crafts and Shipping Silent Infinity
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Posted - 2011.06.20 13:52:00 -
[1382]
Originally by: Wahsigmar
Originally by: ToXicPaIN
Originally by: Sathynos
Originally by: Zero Bit
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
this
signed
Strike? Now I think know why Lolsec attacked...
This. It's called a Pre-emptive attack.
I know I wouldn't develop anymore if I would be charged for it. "A fool flatters himself, a wise man flatters the fool." |
Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.20 14:13:00 -
[1383]
Originally by: Lord Googoo
Again... ISK ≠ Real world currency. Therefore, CCP shouldn't charge people real world currency for ISK obtained from creating apps or any other in-game services.
Not to mention it'd double dipping on the Plex
->~$15 To buy the PLEX -> $99 to who ever exchanged service for that PLEX
Total PLEX price: $23.25 (15 + 8.25) [$99/12month = 8.25 per month] ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Erothe
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Posted - 2011.06.20 16:06:00 -
[1384]
...developers have to pay to make ur game better...
CCP has hit an iceberg, the gamers at the bottom now its sinking but the stupid bigwigs at the top thinks its all going great, good news its going to sink anyway.
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Shadalana
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Posted - 2011.06.20 16:20:00 -
[1385]
Originally by: Callean Drevus
Originally by: Goldnut Sachs You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
now we need that in german and russian too
Sie aufladen menschen, die umsonst arbeiten, um ihren spiel besser zu machen asshats
My 2c (might not be completely correct, but the message should be clear)
to correct the german translation (the message ist not clear...google sucks):
Ihr nehmt Geld von Leuten, welche fnr Lau arbeiten um Euer Spiel besser zu machen, Arschl÷cher!
---
@topic: this news simply sucks...next time try thinking before posting CCP... -----
Shad alone in the Darkness - a german/english blog |
Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.20 17:29:00 -
[1386]
Edited by: Consortium Agent on 20/06/2011 17:45:52 Ok, first the good news... I re-enabled all my accounts after CCP began disabling them. Yay me! :P
And it just occurred to me that since so many of us *do* use and *do* enjoy all of the wonderful and critical applications we need on a daily basis - or even once in a great while - perhaps now is the time to show your support in other ways.
Here's how I see it... if CCP intends to charge these guys some genuine ducks to keep spoon feeding the masses the intel, data, tools and techniques that CCP epic failed to even think about much less implement if they accept donations of ISK or RL money, then now is the time to donate to those developers. Let's show our support in dollars and cents (or ISK and AUR, if you please <g>). Even as a 3rd party developer myself I use all these tools, and today I will make an extra effort to support these developers with ISK (only cuz I'm poor in RL but not so bad off in-game lol). I hope others do the same before (or in case, depending on your stance) CCP lays the smack down. Note that I accept neither donations nor charge ISK nor advertise on my sites and therefore don't want anything from anybody for my little tools <g> - but I do think that for the folks who use EveMon, EveHQ, Eve-Central.com, Eve-Kill.net (yes I know they charge ISK for KB's - so buy a KB, see!), etc. etc., now is the time we should show these developers how much we really do appreciate their work. Just sayin'.
*EDIT* If you're broke in real life and broke in the game, then the best way to show your support is to hit all the websites and click on the advertisements - especially ones that are for EVE Online. Might as well charge the folks for their usually free advertising I say ;) Doh. Hadn't thought of that, had ya CCP? So, go forth and multi-click advertisements today on all your favorite Eve related websites to show your support if you do nothing else. You never know you might even find something cool you didn't know existed out there in ad world ;) Note: for clicks to be effectual (for these guys to get paid) you should spend a minimum of 30 seconds on the websites you are taken to after clicking an advertisement (and should click around that site, really), and you should refresh the page and click different advertisements when you return to the Eve related site. Clicks are only worth a handful of pennies usually, so click as much as you can. Doing this in general will help your 3rd party developers actually absorb some of their hosting costs. Happy clicking! *END EDIT*
As for CCP being still quite silent on this I have this to say.... So much for the 'discussion' part of all this (I know, I've said it before, but it bears repeating again and again - it demonstrates to a large extent how CCP truly feels about its players when they cannot even take the time to have discussions with them, especially when they are the ones who offered the discussion in the first place. Note: there will be no other dev blog that includes the words 'discussion' in the context of 'let's have a discussion' ever again. Mark my words.)
So, to CCP *anybody* still lurking around in here... you've opened a wound in your community and, rather than having the discussion with us about it, threw a band-aid at us and have since let the wound fester and turn gangrene. All we (the 3rd party developers and players) wanted was a discussion. When we didn't see things your way you decided you no longer wanted to discuss it. Your silence seems all very childish to me really, as if you're feelings got hurt, and it is definitely ineffectual at solving the problem. Will you continue to let this fester until the smell of black death hangs in the air about you?
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Max Fear
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Posted - 2011.06.20 17:37:00 -
[1387]
Ive someone want to earn money ba using EvE IP they should pay money for using.
But for all the other how develop, host und support tools to improve the EvE entertainment just for free or for ISK, CCP has to say "Thanks for your great job!" and not "Gimme u money now!"!
I say "Thanks for the good job!" to all the developers who work for free to suport us at this place!
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Missus Malaprop
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Posted - 2011.06.20 17:58:00 -
[1388]
Originally by: Consortium Agent
*EDIT* If you're broke in real life and broke in the game, then the best way to show your support is to hit all the websites and click on the advertisements - especially ones that are for EVE Online. Might as well charge the folks for their usually free advertising I say ;) Doh. Hadn't thought of that, had ya CCP? So, go forth and multi-click advertisements today on all your favorite Eve related websites to show your support if you do nothing else. You never know you might even find something cool you didn't know existed out there in ad world ;) Note: for clicks to be effectual (for these guys to get paid) you should spend a minimum of 30 seconds on the websites you are taken to after clicking an advertisement (and should navigate around that site, really), and you should refresh the page and click different advertisements when you return to the Eve related site. Clicks on advertisements are only worth a handful of pennies for the developer usually - and costs you nothing but time, so click on as many as you can. Doing this in general will help your 3rd party developers actually absorb some of their hosting costs. Happy clicking! *END EDIT*
I dont think you have a clue what you're talking about.
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Yi Kang
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Posted - 2011.06.20 18:19:00 -
[1389]
I'm curious about what the "penalty phase' is going to be. If I tell CCP to take a flying leap and stil hit their API to run my site without paying them, what will they do about it? Ban my IP? Ban my player account? (which would be interesting since I dont like my web page wiht my account in any way) Maybe take me to court for cyber-tresspassing?
You can't tell me they haven't thought of it. They just haven't rolled it out yet.
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TheDoctorUK
Gallente BSC LEGION Split Infinity.
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:04:00 -
[1390]
CCP, Well done, people who develop the likes of EVE-MON, well without them I would of played another game, in fact the 3rd party program kept me in game. And after 3 years I still use it, take that away from the community, escpically the new gamers, because the developers no longer feel there out of game time where they could earn isk is now being charged another $8.25ish a month. They may feel compleed to pull the plug and leave there talent to you CCP. Now CCP put the app in there client, but that's no good as what if I cant log in, because I will get podded, whist wasting time making a skill plan.
Now on-line applications like eve central, who make a little RL cash from the ad's to pay for some servers (tho the person gone to eve-central for a reason not to go to other sites), now you add $99 a year to the bill, the site owners decide to downgrade hardware to cut costs, site runs even slower, to the point they decide to shut down.
Another killed application.
CCP these 3rd party sites keep gamers playing, don't kill them off, If someone wishes to donate ISK to the developer, good they just helped the developer gain some isk towards a plex and that's another 30 days of a happy developer and a another gamer happy.
It all comes down to a old fairground proverb "What you lose on the swings you win on the roundabouts" rephrase that to "What you lose with 3rd party apps you win with more subscriptions"
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eXeler0n
Caldari FrEE d00M Fighters Ewoks
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:09:00 -
[1391]
What the hell? Do I have to pay, when I ask for ISK donations on my blog? That really crazy. I pay for the webspace, I pay for the domain and I run a blog on it. I have no ads on it and I don't ask for isk. But if I do, I have to pay? Twice? Webspace and domain and now 99 Dollars a year? This blog brings new players to eve, thats money for CCP. Why do I have to pay to CCP to run a free blog what still makes money for ccp? |
Aliz Proctel
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:14:00 -
[1392]
Id be lost without the 3rd party devs. I find playing the game more interesting with them. With out them I think i would leave Eve |
coolzero
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:48:00 -
[1393]
Originally by: Goldnut Sachs Kronus Heilgar Heilgar Trading Corp. said
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
now we need that in german and russian too
jullie vragen geld aan mensen die gratis werken en jullie spel beter te maken eikels.
added dutch translation :D
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Trax Darkstorm
Caldari Commonwealth Mercenaries
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Posted - 2011.06.20 19:52:00 -
[1394]
I won't rehash all the points made in this thread but will just say i think this is a terrible idea and will kill off one of the best 3rd party developer community's around. I see no point in this whatsoever
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LeiYingLo
Rhymin and Stealin
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Posted - 2011.06.20 20:12:00 -
[1395]
No Dev response for a while, but someone at CCP *IS* looking at this thread...
It just got un-stickied!!!
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Harisdrop
Gallente Vindicate and Deliverance
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Posted - 2011.06.20 20:36:00 -
[1396]
Think like a capitalist. Charge for the cost and not worry about it. Who says it has to be free to your customers.
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Gene Windstar
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:25:00 -
[1397]
Edited by: Gene Windstar on 20/06/2011 21:25:38 "Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers."
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Quote: Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Saying this well in the meantime unsticking the thread What hoping it will disappear? I guess we know what you think of our input and having a discussion, and well it may be hard to look at this thread for you, plain and simply, you messed up and you will have to live with that. People are annoyed and rather angry about this, even if it is a misunderstanding i dont think this will just disappear like you hope until people get an answer or apology for the lack of proofreading this "early" draft (which i might add wasn't labeled as such when it was released, just mentioning feedback could imply you might do this as early as next week) or CSM (you know....those guys you fly over and everything that are supposed to be in the loop ) input. This is a PR disaster and you need to activate your Damage Control before you incur any more damage.
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Azran Zala
Fleet of the Damned Legion of The Damned.
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Posted - 2011.06.20 21:59:00 -
[1398]
Edited by: Azran Zala on 20/06/2011 22:06:07
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
Without free tools like EVEmon, Dotlan, Capital Jump planners (OMG CCP JUMP PLANNER SHOULD BE BUILT IN), EFT, and Postracker, Outofeve, eve-kill, ect This game would be virtually unplayable. The small donations (almost always only of isk) that some of these developers ask for, doesnt even cover their hosting costs, it just makes up for time they could have spent making isk ingame.
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Kaludan
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Posted - 2011.06.20 22:04:00 -
[1399]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
This.
I play this game because the fan base and player created content makes it awesome.
This might make sense if you host every aspect of their business.
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Stoned Dragonias
Amarr Southern Cross Empire Flying Dangerous
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Posted - 2011.06.20 22:16:00 -
[1400]
Edited by: Stoned Dragonias on 20/06/2011 22:17:29
Originally by: Gene Windstar Edited by: Gene Windstar on 20/06/2011 21:25:38 "Please help us by continuing to give constructive feedback into how you want this service to be since our motives are really to empower 3rd party development and not to try to squeeze money out of starving programmers."
Originally by: CCP Zulu
Quote: Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Saying this well in the meantime unsticking the thread What hoping it will disappear? I guess we know what you think of our input and having a discussion, and well it may be hard to look at this thread for you, plain and simply, you messed up and you will have to live with that. People are annoyed and rather angry about this, even if it is a misunderstanding i dont think this will just disappear like you hope until people get an answer or apology for the lack of proofreading this "early" draft (which i might add wasn't labeled as such when it was released, just mentioning feedback could imply you might do this as early as next week) or CSM (you know....those guys you fly over and everything that are supposed to be in the loop ) input. This is a PR disaster and you need to activate your Damage Control before you incur any more damage.
It will disappear, let me direct you to this thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1487231 it's at 117 pages with no real response from CCP, and the thread is now on the second page of the forum. You think they really care what we have to say LOL! The only thing corporations listen to is money, when you hurt the bottom line then they listen. |
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Vaedian GER
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2011.06.20 23:37:00 -
[1401]
Edited by: Vaedian GER on 20/06/2011 23:46:34 You're still unable to provide a forum with a search function, but now you wanna charge Chribba for it? Pathetic, really. _______________
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Orgas Mando
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Posted - 2011.06.21 04:05:00 -
[1402]
Edited by: Orgas Mando on 21/06/2011 04:10:14 Talking about the "New player experience" here.
One of the first useful advises, when i started playing was "GET EFT, GET EVEMON,Crazy-cool OOG-tools that let you plan your ships and your character with!".(Saves you dieing in LOL-fits, and ragequit, before the fun starts) And today, i say the same thing to New Players.
If CCP had come up with some(Incredibliy "innovative" and"Awesome") ingame tools, that'd do basically the same as eft, or evemon,such a license would be somewhat feasible. Not nice, but feasible.
To me,those tools,developed by none other than loyal and dedicated customers of CCP, are like the limbs of a Body.Without them you would simply lose the grasp on EVE and leave it.
If CCP wants to get new players, a simple new tutorial isn't enough.It is mostly the community that encourages the newb to stay and sometimes lead them. Those 3rd party apps do the same.Or at least help them to do so,and i love them devs for it.
CCP should change their policy in that regard, as to only charge, when the third party dev is charging real money for his app/service.period. No fancy wording,no rage.
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Serkanay
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.06.21 05:26:00 -
[1403]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Devil tiger
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Posted - 2011.06.21 06:08:00 -
[1404]
Well my sub runs out today... And frankly if this **** goes through as is, I've no reason to keep paying & playing 15Ç a month. It's the 3rd party app's that keep EvE afloat and make it really different from other mmo's.
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Moe Lesture
Wrath of Fenris Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.21 06:27:00 -
[1405]
Edited by: Moe Lesture on 21/06/2011 06:29:09
IF it is about money...
GIVE US NIGHTMARE AND MACH SHIP MODELS TO BUY - Instant Million Bucks.. Guaranteed.
DO NOT MONETIZE US
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Argolion
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Posted - 2011.06.21 10:48:00 -
[1406]
I don't like your idea CCP. It is just those people who bring in new players.
I'd like to see some response to this threat from your site. The community is telling you what they think. And you should think about to make this game better, not worse.
Regards Argolion
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Maple Mudge
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:12:00 -
[1407]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Easley Thames
The Maverick Navy Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:17:00 -
[1408]
Maybe you can expand free licenses to include people who make money from ads.
You still get the added control because of the conditions in the contract they agree to, but you don't break the back of shoe-string budget operations.
http://couldhavetakenitsolo.wordpress.com/ |
Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:17:00 -
[1409]
*sigh*
CCP... If you think unsticking the thread is going to help....
BUMP
Doh!
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Roan Pico
Amarr I- T I E -I
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:33:00 -
[1410]
Originally by: Vaedian GER Edited by: Vaedian GER on 20/06/2011 23:47:03
You're unable to provide a forum with a search function and now you wanna charge Chribba for it? Pathetic, really.
New Forums with search are already running/are in test, same with agent finder which is now ingame with Incarna... people like Chribba were used to provide features ccp wasnt able/willed (for what reasons ever) to do themselves (ofc free for ccp).
Now, ccp goes big business with Incarna and Dust (player base is big and stable enough for that now)... yesterdays pawns are competitors today and get either milked for the bling or starved out.
I can already smell a range of ccp-made tools, formerly provided by players and free to use - then payable by that aurum thingy...
________________________________________________ Some people are gay, get over it ! |
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Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:47:00 -
[1411]
Originally by: Roan Pico yesterdays pawns are competitors today and get either milked for the bling or starved out.
I can already smell a range of ccp-made tools, formerly provided by players and free to use - then payable by that aurum thingy...
*BUMP*
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mogiie
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:50:00 -
[1412]
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Dyner
Minmatar Midgard Protectorate
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Posted - 2011.06.21 15:47:00 -
[1413]
Edited by: Dyner on 21/06/2011 15:47:29
Originally by: Roan Pico
I can already smell a range of ccp-made tools, formerly provided by players and free to use - then payable by that aurum thingy...
And you'll quickly see that "stable player base" dry up. No way in Hell will I pay for something that was FREE and I bet most of the players share that sentiment.
EDIT: Just realized this topic will probably be locked soon; so spread the word in-game and on fansites. ----------------
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
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Knarf Truesdale
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Posted - 2011.06.21 16:05:00 -
[1414]
Originally by: Moe Lesture Edited by: Moe Lesture on 21/06/2011 06:29:09
IF it is about money...
GIVE US NIGHTMARE AND MACH SHIP MODELS TO BUY - Instant Million Bucks.. Guaranteed.
DO NOT MONETIZE US
Honestly, they would make much more with Frigate models. How many people do you think would like a model of a Rifter vs. those that want a Mach?
Oh, and note to CCP about my Tempest model: GIVE ME TURRETS!
As for the main thread, I still don't understand why CCP isn't PAYING the developers. I mean, seriously; the developers see a gaping hole in EVE IP and fill it awesomely. As I see it, CCP should be rewarding the developers, not penalizing them.
While this plan does not technically charge developers that ASK for donations rather than REQUIRE a fee, it is a first step down that road.
Do yourself a favor: Watch Clear Skies
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Roan Pico
Amarr I- T I E -I
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Posted - 2011.06.21 16:31:00 -
[1415]
Originally by: Moe Lesture GIVE US NIGHTMARE AND MACH SHIP MODELS TO BUY
There you go mate...
________________________________________________ Some people are gay, get over it ! |
Curver
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Posted - 2011.06.21 17:02:00 -
[1416]
I personally feel that this change is wrong. Developers put in a large amount of time developing applications to help support EVE Online which ultimately makes things better for the playerbase and helps keep subscriptions alive. At the end of the day CCP is a company and money is what is ultimately important.
Now I recognize the face that you state that it makes little difference how much you charge; so charge $1. EVE Online is one of the most expensive MMO's on the market and most people require two accounts to do what they want to do within the game. I'm not complaining about this but from a money view it looks like a grab for cash.
Now CCP claim that this is so that they can control who uses the API; this is already in effect requiring users to have AN ACTIVE SUBSCRIPTION to access the data. You could mine login details to see who is accessing the API and cross reference this information with the billing data held by our subscriptions and also check the server logs for remote access IP's. CCP could see if these IP's have been cross-referenced to an EVE account automatically via a script and block access to any IP not registered.
If CCP want's more controls over who accesses their servers for information then this could also be easily regulated for free but make it linked to an active EVE account; this way if a user provides you with false information just ban their account which will block a sites access to the API.
This will also mean that devices such as EVEMon will need a central server to poll API data. Users can no longer request API information directly as their local and dynamic IP addresses will not be registered or CCP will need to accept DYNDNS requests or requests with authorised signatures from authorised applications.
I personally feel the API system needs to stay as it is; you know how Google feels about companies who don't want to freely share their data (the whole Google vs Facebook argument). The playerbase already pay enough and I havn't seen much abuse of the API system to date. Users can even opt out of the API by not providing their API details to developers so there is no real data protection concern.
Vote NO to API charging.
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Rotten Ho
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Posted - 2011.06.21 18:39:00 -
[1417]
Edited by: Rotten Ho on 21/06/2011 18:40:04 So help me if this bull**** ******ed idea causes dotlan or jmp planner to go down and i have to use that god awful poorly made excuse for a map in game i'll stop playing
No ones going to pay for 3rd party eve apps either, why don't you just send every developer a personalized letter asking them politely to go **** them selves instead |
Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.21 18:57:00 -
[1418]
i want a dev update yesterday on this issue. say something damnit.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2011.06.21 19:39:00 -
[1419]
Originally by: Majuan Shuo i want a dev update yesterday on this issue. say something damnit.
500 postings ago you got this.
which he also repeated in the studio discussion during the tournament.
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Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.21 20:34:00 -
[1420]
Edited by: Majuan Shuo on 21/06/2011 20:35:13
Originally by: darius mclever
Originally by: Majuan Shuo i want a dev update yesterday on this issue. say something damnit.
500 postings ago you got this.
which he also repeated in the studio discussion during the tournament.
Besides usual corporate shill response - ive already read that and its the perfect example of "speaking without saying anything."
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Mechanoid Kryten
Humble Origins Red Dwarf Racketeering Division
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:23:00 -
[1421]
Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 21/06/2011 22:31:44 Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 21/06/2011 22:25:41
Originally by: Dyner Edited by: Dyner on 21/06/2011 15:47:29
EDIT: Just realized this topic will probably be locked soon; so spread the word in-game and on fansites.
Oh, if they go through with this, believe me, I will.
I suspect CCP is hoping it will die in time, or maybe they are waiting for people to cool down before replying. But if they do it and a spontaneous 3rd party app developer strike does not occur spontaneously (and I think it will occur faster than I can respond), I will MAKE one occur. This would give me, and hopefully other people, hope that this event will go down in eve myth and that live in-game will return to normal. Without hope of it going back, more of the people I care about would be quitting this game in droves, and then where would I be?
I think people can take screen shot of their existing 3rd party apps, put that that red text on top:
Originally by: Kronus Heilgar
You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats
and replace their apps with that static image.
And ask that anyone who sees it go petition it to ccp as broken.
I am the Organizer of GrieferGeddon that made the Eve News: http://eve.battleclinic.com/news/139695-GrieferGeddon-Offers-Solace-to-Miners.html. When it comes to protecting my mining+coding game style and keeping the people I care about playing eve rather than quitting, I go from Uber Carebear to turn-the-server-upside-down in zero time. And I suspect that this time, Hellicity just might be on the same side as me. I do not think it is time for this yet because if CCP is hoping this will go away and people will forget -- rather than planning to implement this regardless -- such a protest will do more harm than good.
But I think CCP owes everyone a frank apology. Not "sorry you misunderstood" or "sorry you felt hurt by our innocent actions". This what what you need to say CCP "Sorry we screwed up we promise not to make you pay real money after openly encouraging you to code eve-related apps to the point of creating a Dev Track at fanfest"
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Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:37:00 -
[1422]
Man, I come back days later and the rage just resumes. Sig removed because of broken link. Zymurgist |
Ruthless Erection
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Posted - 2011.06.21 23:58:00 -
[1423]
Thanks CCP. **** you too.
All you guys are, are money hungry ***gots. You're just bad as Blizzard and World of Warcraft.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.22 00:52:00 -
[1424]
Nice to see you linking and directing EVE players to the very sites you'll be charging a commercial license fee $99 last we heard when your own sites go down.
Sites like Eve search, Eve Radio, Dotlan Maps, Battleclinic and the popular application Evemon.
http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/1106/eve-commercial-screenshot.152.jpg
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Soldarius
Caldari Northstar Cabal Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.06.22 01:53:00 -
[1425]
Haven't read the whole threadnought rage so apologies if this has already been pointed out.
With this change, won't CCP now have legal grounds to sue those who do not comply with the commercial licensing requirement, such as RMT sites?
Originally by: Krutoj You dont have a supercapital? buy PLEX trade it for ISK, buy supers. Just like any other mmo you can use your RL to pimp your character out (or tank for that matter).
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Idami Raptor
Gallente E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector
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Posted - 2011.06.22 04:42:00 -
[1426]
Originally by: Soldarius Haven't read the whole threadnought rage so apologies if this has already been pointed out.
With this change, won't CCP now have legal grounds to sue those who do not comply with the commercial licensing requirement, such as RMT sites?
It would help a lot with claiming trademark violations. You can actually lose a trademark if you don't try to protect it from unauthorized use, which is why you'll see companies running ad campaigns to stop people using it in a generic way ('Xerox' and 'Band-aid' being two well known examples). They don't want to lose their trademark because it's become the common term for whatever.
This whole thing is kinda skeezy, still. The way I read it, you can only get a noncommercial license if you lose money on the site (you can't even collect money just to pay for the costs of running it the way it's written up, which would doom anything of any size to death and basically require all developers to go commercial).
And honestly, the legal ground here is pretty shaky. I don't know about all countries, but in the US it's actually legal to use someone else's IP *without* a license under certain circumstances, and the fan sites and apps would mostly fall into them. Meaning that the non-commercial license is a pointless load of red tape, especially if it's required for ANY use of EvE IP.
Unless the basic core idea is drastically altered, this is going to lead to nothing but bad things. It's going to be almost impossible to enforce, there's no way CCP can track down every site using EvE IP, not even if they paid someone specifically to do it, which they'd basically have to (this is what the $99 pays for!). And they would HAVE to go after each and every violator they found, or lose all force behind it.
A better idea would be to make the 'non commercial license' automatic: making people apply for it is a waste of CCP's time and money, and ours as well. Even being free, If I were running a corp website, I'd prefer to take it down rather than deal with licensing of any sort.
End result: a lot of players who are personally angry at CCP for some legalistic nonsense and red tape they feel they shouldn't have to deal with, and they're flat on right. Letting people sell apps and charging them a fee for it is fine. Not letting people provide free services without having to pay for them completely out of pocket isn't. Making every tom, ****, and harry register for a license isn't. And those last two are hard to get to legally as well: they'd have to put provisions in the EULA to make it enforceable.
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Lilith Apsu
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Posted - 2011.06.22 06:41:00 -
[1427]
Edited by: Lilith Apsu on 22/06/2011 06:42:44 I note that much of the discussion is from extremely passionate and talented people devoting their time to making applications to enhance (and in some cases fix) the EVE Online Experience. The majority of these people are doing it for their love of the game, and not trying to make a buck.
I'm here to offer a slightly different perspective, in part because it strikes me as inconceivable that CCP won't relent on requiring a $90 license for folks who are investing money and time in their development with no hope of financial benefit, other than perhaps recouping some of their costs. As stated elsewhere, a $1 license would suffice to protect IP and trademarks. I want to make the harder case, for not having the fee for us money-grubbing programmers who would like to make a buck.
I'm a programmer involved in online game development, with a friend who is a huge fan of EVE, and has played it for years. While looking for a project to work on to both have fun and ideally make some profit, I asked whether EVE had an API and he showed it to me, I was extremely excited, and after a few days work, we confirmed it would be easy to make some pretty sexy tools that could assist both individuals and corporations in-game, through the IGB in ways not yet done. In addition to all the amazing tools folks have made, there's room for some extremely handy (and somewhat programatically simple) tools to be developed to make use of the IGB.
While entering EVE, I read the ad for the "Monetizing" blog post, and was delighted that the folks at CCP were forward-thinking enough to try to assist their userbase by helping them figure out how to profit from their passion. My delight turned to chagrin after reading the article. For reasons I won't bother repeating (as they're eloquently described elsewhere in this thread), the license decision seems to be an epic fail all ways around.
I love the idea of trying to make a bit of coin while making the gaming experience better for existing players of a game like EVE. I enjoy the speculative approach: build something cool, see if people want it, if so, develop it further. If it really takes off, bring more programming muscle to bear. It's not that a $90 fee is big: it's not. It's that the fee indicates a certain mindset on the part of CCP that is unattractive to someone wanting to invest the time and money to make a tool. It seems like a great way to chase off potential investment of more substantial resources on the part of your userbase, and for people who are looking for which environment they want to develop in, takes you out of the running quickly: there's plenty of online games that are fun, and have APIs, SDKs and the like which they make freely available for folks to profit from, because they understand that anything your userbase is willing to pay some else for (whether by donation or a fee) is a value added to your product at no cost to you, which should directly translate into better revenues for you, not through licensing, but through increase user attraction and retention.
The prospective of waiting until the end of summer to find out what CCP decides (as opposed to a fairly quick acknowledgement that given the sensible issues raised in this thread, it's ill conceived to charge your userbase for making your game more saleable) is enough to make me ready to move on. On to LoTRO, on to WoW, on to Second Life, on to countless other products that understand that it's smart to encourage other people to try to make money off your product - as long as it enhances your user's experience, and contributes to fun, balanced gameplay. I think a lot of companies would go a long way to try to encourage the active userbase of developers which this licensing scheme thwarts.
Finally, I'm glad to see CCP Zulu's response, a smart course-correction from the previous CCP posts dismissive of the very articulate and well reasoned advice presented by many in this thread.
Now... where were those WoW API notes...
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Hel O'Ween
Men On A Mission EVE Trade Consortium
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Posted - 2011.06.22 09:14:00 -
[1428]
Originally by: Idami Raptor
Originally by: Soldarius Haven't read the whole threadnought rage so apologies if this has already been pointed out.
With this change, won't CCP now have legal grounds to sue those who do not comply with the commercial licensing requirement, such as RMT sites?
It would help a lot with claiming trademark violations. You can actually lose a trademark if you don't try to protect it from unauthorized use, [...]
Can you cite the part of the Icelandic trademark law for this claim?
I know that's the way it wroks in the USA. But I'm not sure that it's the same in Iceland/Europe. -- EVEWalletAware - an offline wallet manager |
MurKoN Kador Mahyisti
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Posted - 2011.06.22 11:10:00 -
[1429]
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
This is so funny! - no offence, but why the hell would you publicise it in the first place when you were all busy working on Incarna, or know Incarna was just days away! Did you really think the community would just accept the 3rd party charging scheme and not reply back? Don't you think you guys have enough flash cars and top end market houses already? Do you really need anymore money than what already coming in? I don't get it!
$15.00 per month x 300,000 (boasted players, your facts) = OMG! What the hell you spending it all on
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dj ore
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Posted - 2011.06.22 11:23:00 -
[1430]
Edited by: dj ore on 22/06/2011 11:24:38
Originally by: Hyperforce99 Has CCP been purchased by Activision by any chance, the CCP I know would never ask money from fan-sites!
You are probaly quite close Maybe they have so many fingers in the pie now (shareholders) and they all want bigger cuts (greed) of this luscious income... do the original creators actually run the show now or is the just for media now?
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Jarlexly
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.06.22 13:30:00 -
[1431]
i'm not supporting this Money juicing method. Those people who are making 3rd party applications are making these programs for gamers "For Free". By doing it they are improving your game's gaps and improving our game play (normally your DEV team should do these). You are doing this because you see profit in it but at the same time your team isnt smart to use these 3rd party programs and implament them to game, some of those programs are used by players since 2004-2011 and still you cant see how usefull they are and these programs have been made in their free time. I cant belive you are paying for the programmers in EVE, YOU SHOULD PAY to the 3rd Party programmers for improving your game and our game play.
Suggestion: Instead of leeching the money of 3rd Party Programmers, make a "Fund" for these guys. we are paying you 15$ a month, cut 0,5$ from this payment and transfer it to this fund, this way you'll win the hearts of the players and encourage more people to contribute your commercial.
Last Word: By doing your way, you are not just raging the programmers, you are raging the players. CCP Atlas can think that "How i am amazing to think this, i love myself" but he isnt, First he should think "Our ingame programming supporte isnt enough, we havent got a proper production,fitting,character planer,Jump Calculator, on 'n on" , so as you see Dear CCP Atlas these people are better programmers then the programmers in CCP.
Think about it.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.22 13:31:00 -
[1432]
:cough:
*BUMP* to keep this on the radar in light of the whole 'WTF you want $1b ISK for a monocle!' nerdrage going on elsewhere.
We have not forgotten CCP. Still awaiting your fab response.
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.22 13:34:00 -
[1433]
Originally by: MurKoN Kador Mahyisti
$15.00 per month x 300,000 (boasted players, your facts) = OMG! What the hell you spending it all on
Barbie clothes, apparently.
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Johno Johnson
Caldari Jump Bridge Innovations
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Posted - 2011.06.22 14:59:00 -
[1434]
What a rip off, they all support and help the EVE community why **** them off?
What you need all that extra $$$$$$ for anyway? Trying to buy an island without a volcano are ya!
Oi is this your CEO by any chance? Kinda makes sense Recruiting now-Jump Bridge Innovations |
Zorasin
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Posted - 2011.06.22 18:35:00 -
[1435]
Edited by: Zorasin on 22/06/2011 18:36:20 TL, DR(most of it)This may have been said, but...
(From original devblog) "Will services for in-game currency require a commercial license? Yes, if you require any sort of payment for your services you will need a commercial license."
So if you don't "require any sort of payment", then you don't pay license? If that is true, then people who don't actually charge money or solicit ISK donations for their apps can get a free non-commercial license, right? Thus far, developers have created Eve tools from the good of their heart and love of the game without expecting anything in return.* Just because a developer may have a legal avenue to make money on their effort, does that mean they will? If Chribba is any indication of the typical third party developer, then your favorite tools will continue to be free.
So, the preceding 48 pages of passionate reactions thinking we'll instantly have to pay for our favorite tools is probably for naught! At the very least this threadnought proved that players aren't willing to pay for tools they believe should already be part of the game. Which brings me to my point.
Let's assume your favorite developer DOES decide they want to start charging you real cash to use it. Then the market forces take over, ie consumers, ie YOU. If you don't want to pay to use it you won't, but the demand will still be there. Eve's playerbase probably has a disproportionately high ratio of programmer types, so probably sooner than later someone will offer the same tool for free. The amount of cooperation among Eve players is not insubstantial, nor unprecedented. The whole concept of alliances and people working together to accomplish goals is part of the game. Players organizing events that are not "CCP Sponsored" are fairly common; just look at Hulkageddon. I really don't think people charging for something that anyone can provide for free will change much, other than who writes your skill planning software.
In the end, the only result licensing seems likely to accomplish is to create a hoop for developers of free tools to jump thru... ie getting a non commercial license that will not generate any cost or revenue for anyone.
* Even if the developer isn't allowed to solicit/require ISK donations under the non-commerial license, many developers put their character name on the app. If you're the donating type, you could easily make a non-descript deposit in their wallet.
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Kandreath
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Posted - 2011.06.22 22:19:00 -
[1436]
Edited by: Kandreath on 22/06/2011 22:24:07 I've just come from reading the following http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=931
OK so they heard... It sounds like they understand this is a big problem and are having another think about it.
I'd like some assurance though that I can still write my private API and static database tools without having to "show a transaction".
To be honest, the side hobby of writing these tools (and giving them to no one) has been an enjoyable part of the game.
Can I propose that CCP keep the free access to the API and static database for the "little guy" to play with. For those that choose to become a "registered developer" then some type of upgraded access (different cache time, enhanced support, a registration mark perhaps? - Perhaps make registration mandatory for distributing a tool - and CCP offers a page to host these tools - (or links to them)?
What I'm asking for is don't cut out the many people who are tinkering with tools on their own as part of their own game play.
And on top of that with regard to becoming a "registered developer" I hope you take my previous suggestion to charge like for like. (if the developer asks for ISK, then charge isk, if they ask real money, then charge real money.
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Ira Infernus
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Posted - 2011.06.22 23:38:00 -
[1437]
As soon as eve starts charging real cash for gameplay (both in client and in terms of metagaming) they will have no idea what hits them with the lack of cash they will have flowing into the coffers. This is all a result of too much too fast with the forcefull launch of dust.
Seriously, emoraging EVERYWHERE in game for just about everything ccp is introducing right now.
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Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar Clan Hyena
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Posted - 2011.06.23 12:01:00 -
[1438]
Originally by: Swren1 Edited by: Swren1 on 16/06/2011 15:50:28
Originally by: CCP Zulu Hello all.
At the risk of sounding corporate-y, I have to say Iæm impressed and greatful for the amount of passion shown in this thread.
There are a lot of very valid points raised here. What's interesting is that most, if not all, of the issues that are being raised are because of confusing wording, terminology or misunderstandings in the draft document.
It is in no way the purpose of the program to deter or make money off 3rd party development. The core purpose is simply to have control our IP and brand and have a contract in place so we can have some form of regulation on apps and services that use the EVE name and EVE resources (API).
Itæs obvious we have to review and iterate on the contract and program as presented in the devblog since most of the points mentioned in the comments are not in line with its core purpose.
Unfortunately that will take some time and weære kind of swamped for the next couple of weeks.
So what weæll do is take a step back, harvest feedback from this thread, do an iteration pass on the contract and terms and give you an updated version before the end of summer. Until we have a license that meets our needs and your expectations we will not make any changes to our terms or enforcement thereof.
As always, your feedback is not only welcomed but in fact essential to us. Thank you.
Arnar Hrafn Gylfason Senior Producer of EVE Online
Hey maybe you can do the same for Incarna and have a patch thats related to internet spaceships???
You mean the updated Maller hull and the new Turret designs/effects don't satisfy as a 'patch related to internet spaceships' ..? ---- "Sounds like a bad case of pikal envy, if you ask me."
Chief Engineering Officer - got the tools to fix your problems.
The new Maelstrom: Say hello to my little Dread. |
SghnDubh
BattleClinic
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Posted - 2011.06.23 15:27:00 -
[1439]
Originally by: Alejan Gerakh
I have to wonder who was there at these round tables with them and what kind of feedback they received, with this presumed affront (if the public backlash is any indication) to all the decent 3rd party developers who spend their unpaid free time developing these programs to fill in for flawed aspects of EVE... Or, at the very least, extend functionality outside of EVE (the ability to keep track of skill training being tantamount among them).
I was at the FF round table for this discussion, and despite having lost my voice, I did a fair job of trying to monopolize the conversation. I raised many of the points raised in this threadnought. Others did as well.
Deaf ears, apparently. Timecodes: http://shop.BattleClinic.com
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Borun Tal
Minmatar Just Abide
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Posted - 2011.06.23 15:29:00 -
[1440]
Edited by: Borun Tal on 23/06/2011 15:30:17 This is a friggin' joke. I've been a professional developer since 1986, and I get licensing APIs for serious development, but let's face it, guys, this is a community willing to add value to the community for the benefit of the community AND CCP.
Protecting your intellectual property is one thing: it makes perfect sense to require that someone writing an Eve-based novel get approval/sign-off from CCP for the concepts and storyline in their novels, but this is just API access thru code to let people enjoy the product more. License fee for Eve? The market app I've been working on has just stopped, and I'll probably just trash it. I won't pay $99 US$ per year for a license to build a tool for a game.
You guys just can't seem to avoid making mistakes these days, can you? Getting too big for your britches?
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Roan Pico
Amarr I- T I E -I
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Posted - 2011.06.23 21:23:00 -
[1441]
*bump*deeDumDeee ________________________________________________ Some people are gay, get over it !
Subscription cancelled by June 2011... cu in greedy hell CCP. |
Matt Emery
Caldari Semper Victor
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Posted - 2011.06.23 22:14:00 -
[1442]
I remember when CCP were not Douchbags with Aurum and ****. Its feeling more and more like a 3rd party rip of eastern MMO everyday. Matt :)
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.24 01:41:00 -
[1443]
*bump*
still waiting CCP... still waiting...
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Consortium Agent
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Posted - 2011.06.24 16:14:00 -
[1444]
Too embarrassed to continue the discussion under the devblog that originally outraged the third party developers, CCP has posted a new devblog and associated comments for this topic here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1534389
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Nak hak
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Posted - 2011.06.25 00:48:00 -
[1445]
The 3rd party developer of the EVE community are still waiting CCP... still waiting...
Best Regards. Nak hak, The Self-Righteous |
Xander Hunt
Minmatar Dead Rats Tell No Tales
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Posted - 2011.06.25 05:09:00 -
[1446]
Originally by: Johnathan Walker Edited by: Johnathan Walker on 17/06/2011 10:41:28 So hold on a minute...
Let's say I make a private corporate website. Said site uses ads to generate a few pennies on the dollar to help pay for my server/hosting costs...money that comes out of my pocket to provide a service to my wingmates.
Now I just happen to have a tie-in to the API checking sovereignty and POS bits... and now I need a commercial license because I use ads to pay my server expenses???
Seriously CCP?
Un-believable. You've done some crazy crap in the past (micro-transactions come to mind), but this... SORELY disappointed. It should be sufficient to place copyright information in a visible and public location.
The other thing to take note is that even if you DIDN'T take donations, the fact that you have a public facing website that utilizes CCPs .. ANYTHING... you'll need to pay the $99 fine.. err.. I mean ... fee.
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CaptPeterseNL
The Embraced Of Eve
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Posted - 2011.06.25 15:57:00 -
[1447]
Question: is your boss Steve Jobs? Thats the kinda guy who comes up with this crappy idea! You tell people it's about the game and not about the money. You really expect us to believe that?!
EVE-Online became a great game through the large community what created itself around EVE. So CCP may be glad they have such Third Party Developers as if they weren't part of the community, EVE wouldn't be this big. You're repaying them with a charge of $99,- each year?! SHAME ON YOU!!
There will be a signature here and it will be awesome! |
ChYph3r
Multiplex Gaming
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Posted - 2011.06.26 14:01:00 -
[1448]
the greed is getting stronger with this one! -------------------------------------------------- Talking to all of you is like clapping with one hand!
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Ember Scar
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Posted - 2011.06.26 18:00:00 -
[1449]
test
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Subrahmaya Chandrasekhar
Amarr J0urneys End
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Posted - 2011.06.28 07:55:00 -
[1450]
..................Stop and Think...................
1. Is this what happens when a company gets too large and out-of-touch with its customers and itself?
2. A company is made up of individuals, but is every individual going to be a shining example of what is right?
3. Is something political going on at CCP, and has someone (or some group of individuals) taken the power out of the hands of the developers and the artists and relegated them to lesser roles? Can we identify the true puppetmaster of that group? You can bet this is not the work of CCP Hellmar.
4. Probably no one will read this, nor is it a solution. I suspect that many individuals at CCP are forcing themselves to play along with those in power who have come up with these monetiZING ideas and requirements in order to keep their jobs. I can understand that. What choice is there, really?
5. I am sad for all of us that just because the "industry" is and has been doing these things - politically powerful employees of CCP are now pursuing such a business model. As we know from living in New Eden, not every popular business model is going to get you a high security rating, nor will it win the hearts and minds of your fellow pilots.
Thanks, Sub
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Zero Bit
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Posted - 2011.07.02 09:19:00 -
[1451]
Well, that's it. No further comments for four days now. The community becomes silent, probably busy with waiting for some answers, playing a bit while waiting, forgetting the fuss.
I am not satisfied. Neither with this monetising euphemism nor with MT, nor with where CCP and EVE seem to head now. I have cancelled my subscription (and no, you cannot has my stuff). Since my character and his belongings are preserved I will happy to join again if things turn out to be less bad than anticipated or corrections to EVEs development have been made.
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DanielD Hayes
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Posted - 2011.07.02 15:24:00 -
[1452]
CCP just stop breaking eve.
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MasterChief351
Gallente Atlas Research Group Vanguard Venture Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.06 09:48:00 -
[1453]
I understand the point of charging a license for 3rd party devs wanting to charge Real-Life Money For there Services it is using CCP stuff so understandable.What I dont Understand is if they dont want to charge real-life money they still need to pay the $99.Why not just charge something way smaller for the ones who dont want to get Real-Life Monies[i dont understand what i said there who doesnt want RL Money!] or better yet dont charge One At all.
Like this; .Able to use the EVE Online name and logo etc... in there name+site .Cannot Charge Using Real Money. .Can Accept Donations of Real-Money for Server Upkeep lets say[agreed before hand] .Costs $25 somewhere that bracket.Near enough to a PLEX
And Certain Types of 3rd Devs Should be exempt for what they charge.
Dont know what im saying makes sense
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Xander Hunt
Minmatar Dead Rats Tell No Tales
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Posted - 2011.07.11 15:35:00 -
[1454]
Originally by: MasterChief351 I understand the point of charging a license for 3rd party devs wanting to charge Real-Life Money For there Services it is using CCP stuff so understandable.What I dont Understand is if they dont want to charge real-life money they still need to pay the $99.Why not just charge something way smaller for the ones who dont want to get Real-Life Monies[i dont understand what i said there who doesnt want RL Money!] or better yet dont charge One At all.
Like this; .Able to use the EVE Online name and logo etc... in there name+site .Cannot Charge Using Real Money. .Can Accept Donations of Real-Money for Server Upkeep lets say[agreed before hand] .Costs $25 somewhere that bracket.Near enough to a PLEX
And Certain Types of 3rd Devs Should be exempt for what they charge.
Dont know what im saying makes sense
I understand why, but, I really don't think "Certain Devs" should not have to pay for the service if they're asking for RW monies. Everyone should be on an even field, otherwise you're looking at animosity between dev'rs and theres already enough wars going on that it shouldn't reach into the dev community.
I still stand that all applications that use the API require registration with CCP and requests to the API are done via SSL, and a private key is required per application, RW monies are charged RW prices, ISK transactions are free.
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Naran Eto
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Posted - 2011.07.12 08:52:00 -
[1455]
Originally by: MasterChief351 .Can Accept Donations of Real-Money for Server Upkeep lets say[agreed before hand]
I think if they research this further they will find that in most countries they cannot charge someone who is not making a physical proffit anyway. Under most countries copyright legislation it is perfectly legal to use someone elses intelectual property under the condition that they do not make a proffit and provide an obvious disclaimer stating who the owner of the intelectual property is and that they are not associated with them. Under various international laws people who recieve donations that are in total below their yearly operating costs are legaly classed as non-proffit and thus in many countries it would infact be ilegal for CCP to charge them unless they can prove that the yearly sum of their donations exceeds their yearly cost of operation.
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Kenn
Caldari McKae Industries and Research
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Posted - 2011.08.02 17:36:00 -
[1456]
Xander had a nice Post on a thread relating to this. I posted a reply and will quote it here.
Not up on my code so I will do this cave man style
Quote starts here:
I liked Xander Hunts suggestion as follows:
Originally by: Xander Hunt --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you want to turn around a profit out of this, require that developers are to register their software with your site (Free/donation/for pay), and all RW payments are done via CCP. CCP takes a percentage home off registrations, the owner of the software can decide to cash in with taking payment from CCP either by transactions being put into a PayPal account, or in-game time. Any product that is found to be against the policies can have the payment account locked, and any funds acquired that haven't been "paid out" stay with CCP. Requests to the API server are done via a POST and SSL connection to validate the applications access.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a pay as you make money plan. It provides CCP with a return and protects the developer from loss. No up front costs are involoved although payment by ISK may be nerfed by 3rd parties. However with the Plex program that may result in a workaround as ISK can purchase Plexes which can be sold as GTC (that gets untouched by the liscence as it's double dipping). If the mechanics do not allow transforming Plex to GTC (never worked with that) then that needs to be fixed to make it work.
Sadly the outrage of the community and justifiably so has probably turned the dev away so they fail to see the constructive posts. I too question this move but if the devs feel it's necessary then let us simply find an agreeable way to do this.
I personally see Eve as dying anyway. I am just waiting for that point where I myself leave the game (it's coming soon). Many 3rd party devs have already left the game and some prominent ones too and CCP didn't seem to care. For me its' a very bad sign. Instead of correcting this they instead took the step of driving more away. Whether this was intended or not it shows the state of mind CCP is in. There were better ways of handling this as there were with many things about this game but this is the flavor we get. This is how CCP does business. The writing on the wall is clear to me.
There is still time however and maybe an anvil will fall on their heads and wake them up. Alternative solutions are out there that will work like Xander's shown above. So I won't retire my account just yet.
Quote ends here:
I think Xanders idea is excellent and probably one of many ways to work around this with out ticking off the Eve community. It's a flexible idea and can be worked with in many ways.
As you can see in my original post I really don't hold my breath for hope. LOL. CCP has been doing business this way pretty much since the Inception of EVE. I fear World Of Darkness which has HUGE potential will ultimately go the same route and I may not even bother to try it out to save my self the headache. That's a shame as I would have enjoyed that if it were not for the aggravation.
As I stated before it's not the end......yet. Let's give them a chance to actually fall on their faces and not yell at them because they simply announced they were going to. They may surprise us yet ...me more so than anyone.
Quote: Kenn> HAH! I'm tanking these whimps! Computer> Your Capacitor is empty.
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Valencia Mariana
Caldari Air Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2011.08.12 09:05:00 -
[1457]
"I'd just like to take this moment to state in a very clear manner what it is you are doing here: You are charging people who work for free to make your game better you asshats"
QFT
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Kaomond
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Posted - 2011.08.24 15:13:00 -
[1458]
Originally by: CCP Zymurgist Will corporation and alliance websites require a commercial license? No, private websites do not need a license. However, if you have an external facing part of the website that uses the EVE IP you will require a non-commercial or a commercial license, depending on your use.
Very well, my corporation website has the eve logo on the frontpage to show that it is an eve corporation, if this is how it will be then i will need a license. However, if i need to buy a license, then i expect CCP to in return pay me for advertsiing their product with the logo and the 4 picture links at the bottom of my front page linking to the free trials etc.
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Khan'matar
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Posted - 2011.09.02 04:07:00 -
[1459]
I sympathize with CCP in trying to enact protective measures against the tiny few that engage in what can be legally construed in some jurisdictions as international money-laundering, cross-border bartering, services for hire, gambling and/or misuse of their creative license while attempting to balance the needs of the core audience and sincere 3rd party developers.
I can see how charging a fee is not meant to deter the goodwill of the thousands who have and continually add to the EVE marketplace, but rather is intended as a minimal measure against abuse by parties whose main motivation is to commercialize EVE without rewarding its creators.
Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license.
As they say, the Devil is in the details.
--- With everyone's $0.02 so far we now have ~$29.08 in opinions, before taxes.
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Xander Hunt
Minmatar Dead Rats Tell No Tales
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Posted - 2011.09.04 12:34:00 -
[1460]
Originally by: Khan'matar I sympathize with CCP in trying to enact protective measures against the tiny few that engage in what can be legally construed in some jurisdictions as international money-laundering, cross-border bartering, services for hire, gambling and/or misuse of their creative license while attempting to balance the needs of the core audience and sincere 3rd party developers.
I can see how charging a fee is not meant to deter the goodwill of the thousands who have and continually add to the EVE marketplace, but rather is intended as a minimal measure against abuse by parties whose main motivation is to commercialize EVE without rewarding its creators.
Non-commercial websites and apps will now require a (free) license.
As they say, the Devil is in the details.
--- With everyone's $0.02 so far we now have ~$29.08 in opinions, before taxes.
This tactic is nothing less than a pure money grab, pure and simple. With the release of their financial standings, the fact that they've put the price of PLEX at pretty close to the same price of a regular month account on the condition you buy 13 PLEX in one go really shows that they're hurt'n badly.
However, I can much more agree with THIS tactic than any other as I am not *FORCED* into forking over my cash to do what I love and enjoy, and honestly, I really did think about it. Thing is, with the financial situation in the wild, is EVE going to be around for another year+1month to make that PLEX worth while? Is my $200 going to help make the company last that much longer (Yes, so long they don't fold in 3 months)?
This particular post I write here isn't really in line with the subject matter, however, it raises serious concerns (As serious as concerns can get about a game) to the execution plan of how they're going to get their money.
However, as this is part of the dev thread, I do like some of the new things they are putting in, which has been on the :drawing/[player {begged/demanded/asked/needed/hoped} for]: board for who knows how long.
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