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Cardano Firesnake
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
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Posted - 2012.09.11 19:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Description: Increases the maximum strength of the Armor. These special plate technology are as resistant as their Tech I version but also lighter. Penalty: Adds to your ship's mass, making it less agile and maneuverable in addition to decreasing the factor of thrust gained from speed modules like Afterburners and MicroWarpdrives.
Perequisites: Hull Upgrades V Fitting: As The Reinforce Steel Plates II. Armor HP Bonus : As The Crystalline Carbonide Tech 1 Version. Meta Level 5 Mass Addition As The Crystalline Carbonide Tech 1 Version -50%. For Example: 1600mm Crystalline Carbonide II HP: 3900 / Mass adition: 1500000 Kg
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Martin0
The Scope Gallente Federation
60
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Posted - 2012.09.11 19:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
So you want a 800mm plate with 50% more hp and 2x fitting requirement... i don't think it will be very good, removing the speed penality from armor rigs would be a better idea IMO. |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
684
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Posted - 2012.09.11 20:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
no it sounds like he wants 800mm plate with the same EHP more fitting and half speed penalty. so the trade off is PG/CPU for more speed.
it could work I suppose. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
59
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Posted - 2012.09.12 00:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
What he want is a meta 3 plate with half mass at the expense of the fitting requirement of a tech 2 plate.
Too much IMO, and there is already faction plate for this (like federation navy plate). |
tankus2
The Peace Keepers
57
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Posted - 2012.09.12 00:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
why not rolled tungsten (the best plate available) or nanofiber (best mass-to-armor hp ratio)? Where the science gets done |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
696
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Posted - 2012.09.12 05:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
rolled tungsten is not the best EHP wise anymore, though it used to be... t2 gives more armor now :D
but the idea can work. I think its just a bit too much I think there should be a plate that gives the same armor but lessens the penalty on agility at the expense of fitting requirements needed. |
Cardano Firesnake
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
45
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Posted - 2012.09.12 05:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Yes the Idea is to have an armor plate that give a bit less HP than a Meta4 or Tech 2 Steel Armor, but that have less penalties to speed and agility. The armored ship are really too slow. |
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
82
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Posted - 2012.09.12 05:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:no it sounds like he wants 800mm plate with the same EHP more fitting and half speed penalty. so the trade off is PG/CPU for more speed.
it could work I suppose.
Except faction plates (Syndicate, FN, Serpentis, IN) should be buffed like that, not low meta items.
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
59
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Posted - 2012.09.12 10:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
It couldn't work. Armor plates don't need a buff, armor rigs do. Do this, and you obsolete every other plates. |
Cardano Firesnake
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
47
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Posted - 2012.09.12 10:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:It couldn't work. Armor plates don't need a buff, armor rigs do. Do this, and you obsolete every other plates.
Do you remember when you have fit a Meta 1, Meta 2 or Meta3 plate on a ship? They are already obsolet. For the Met4 and Meta5, they still will give more HP than this item.
I agree with the fact that Armor Rigs that slow armored ships while they are already the slower ships on the field because of the plates should be revamped.... But the both options can be done. |
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Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
278
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Posted - 2012.09.12 11:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Why not introduce a higher Meta non-officer/Complex/Faction Tech?
I mean, Crystalline Carbonide plates are, (lorewise), just a variation of Meta 1 that uses some experimental tech/material to make it slightly better. As materials go, they can only provide so much improvement over base materials because of the nature of their composition and specific properties.
Iron has a mass roughly equal to 7850 kg/cu.m, is moderately ductile, malleable, and slightly soft. Titanium on the otherhand is hard, brittle, and has a mass equal to roughly 4500 kg/cu.m. Neither is particularly effective as hull armor by itself due to their specific properties, though that is typically dependent on what type of damage they are intended to sustain.
General purpose, we would assume they are intended to sustain ballistic impacts, and kinetic and explosive force as well as varying degrees of heat, and perhaps even radiation. Most of that applies here, but there are also a variety of fittings and technology, (all fictional), which compensate for certain types of damage and mitigate or even repair the stress on the material.
So the point is, material alone doesn't change much. How it is used and/or applied is another thing. Hardening or forming a material in a specific fashion can change basic properties. Lower density will result in lower mass, but will also weaken the material with regard to most applications.
Most often the material strength is used in a fashion to which it is particularly well suited and the components made from it are designed to require less material while serving the purpose they are intended to serve equally well or even better than a cruder variation using the same material.
So what we have is engineering and material properties. Most of the Meta items we come across in game are either variations of one or the other, or a variation of both. One could assume Officer items are generally a variation of both with a higher degree of engineering.
My thoughts:
Complex items are limited, associative, and NPC supplied.
Officer items are very limited, specifically associative, and NPC supplied
Faction items are not quite limited, associative, and NPC supplied
Common Meta items are common and/or limited, non-associative, and NPC supplied
Tech I and Tech II items are potentially player made, only partially limited, non-associative, and player and NPC supplied
All are--generally speaking--old hat.
Tech III?
Sleeper and Jovian Technology are the obvious places from which any new technology is going to be sourced. New materials, methods of shaping and forming materials, means of applying them, and means of engineering technologies with them.
So lets start from there, if we're going to start. I have deleted and cleared my signature 7 times and it still won't go away. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
59
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Posted - 2012.09.12 11:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Armor buffer need drawback. This idea is removing them completely. There already exists lighter plates ; why do we need more ? |
Cardano Firesnake
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
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Posted - 2012.09.14 07:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Armor buffer need drawback. This idea is removing them completely. There already exists lighter plates ; why do we need more ? Of course Armor buffer need drawback. But these drawbacks make simply these ships so slow that you cannot use them. Why the Minmatar ships are so represented on the field? Because they are the fastest. Of course, I can fly Minmatar, but I would like to have another possibility. Even if all armor plates had their mass addition lowered by 75%, a plated Brutix or Harbinger be slower and less agile than a Hurricane. The both are slower without the plates... Speed is tank, Speed is DPS, Speed is Fair-escape. The mighty tank of the armor plated ships wil never give you so many choices... So even I would love to see the gap reduced, even if in fact, it would not be enough to give the armor ship the advantage.
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Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
59
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Posted - 2012.09.14 11:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cardano Firesnake wrote: Of course Armor buffer need drawback. But these drawbacks make simply these ships so slow that you cannot use them. Why the Minmatar ships are so represented on the field? Because they are the fastest. Of course, I can fly Minmatar, but I would like to have another possibility. Even if all armor plates had their mass addition lowered by 75%, a plated Brutix or Harbinger be slower and less agile than a Hurricane. The both are slower without the plates... Speed is tank, Speed is DPS, Speed is Fair-escape. The mighty tank of the armor plated ships wil never give you so many choices... So even I would love to see the gap reduced, even if in fact, it would not be enough to give the armor ship the advantage.
First problem is the rigs. When rigs will be fixedc, then we would talk about the plate, but simply removing the drawback of plates because you have no better idea to fix them is a poor solution. Fixing rig would solve most of the problem. Mass is not as detrimental as pure speed drawback. Infact a 800mm plate is half the mass of a 1600mm plate, and have already a negligible impact on speed on cruisers and even less so on BC. Mass is in fact equivalent to sig to some extend. Speed is not. Lowering mass of 1600mm plate would make them the new fotm for any BC ; that would be the same joke than ASB.
I too would love to make armor tanking better, but making it OP is not a solution. The problem is the rigs. |
Cardano Firesnake
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
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Posted - 2012.09.24 05:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
It is true that the rigs reduce the ship speed too. So armored ships that have already a base speed slower thant minmatar ships gain malus with plates AND rigs.... |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
36
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Posted - 2012.09.24 13:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Armour modules are already good enough. With the right rigs, you can make your ship an extremely tough nut to crack, and added with Fleet Booster bonuses/Armoured Warfare links you can have a hideously hard tank.
So no, plates themselves do not need to be changed. Adding a further speed reduction for their added mass would cripple them beyond use - the mass already affects your acceleration/aligning speed - otherwise you would have Amarrian ships crawling around the galaxy at 80m/s with the alignment time of a small moon.
However, I do think that armour in general does need to have a little bit more of a look at - for example, the Adaptive Hardener is far worse a module than the (much praised) ASB, since the ASB can be used normally or "overcharged" with Cap Batteries, but the Armour tanking community has nothing like that.
Perhaps an AAR for the armour community would help out a bit... Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
5
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Posted - 2012.09.24 18:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mars Theran wrote:General purpose, we would assume they are intended to sustain ballistic impacts, and kinetic and explosive force as well as varying degrees of heat, and perhaps even radiation. Most of that applies here, but there are also a variety of fittings and technology, (all fictional), which compensate for certain types of damage and mitigate or even repair the stress on the material.
So the point is, material alone doesn't change much. How it is used and/or applied is another thing. Hardening or forming a material in a specific fashion can change basic properties. Lower density will result in lower mass, but will also weaken the material with regard to most applications.
For the sake of realism (lol, yeah), each plate should give a small bonus to one or two resistances.
This would probably break the game, but I want MOAR ARMOR on my Space potatoe. |
Cardano Firesnake
Babylon Knights Test Alliance Please Ignore
48
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Posted - 2012.09.25 07:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
The purpose is not to add hitpoints to armor tanked ship. The goal is to make them a bit more agile and faster to give them a chance to catch a Minmatar ship sometimes...
Having more hitpoints would not give you the opportunity to get away if the ennemy is outnumbered, or to catch a Minmatar that don't want to engage. And if he engage he will never come under 12km so no web, no scramble, no cap destabilizer....
An Harbinger with a 1600mm plate and a 10MN MWD will fly at 1200m/s overheated while a Hurricane will move at 1300m/s while not overheated and without a nanofiber... Here is an excellent exemple of the problem. The Hurricane have a bit less hitpoints and a bit more signature radius but he have the opportunity to choose his fight. He will always be able to leave if he don't make the mistake to comme at less than 12km (14km in rare cases)
The fact that it is the Minmatar ships that have the bonuses to stasis web is even more frustrating. The only way to catch a Minmatar ship is to fly Minmatar? So why Gallente (Exception: Lachesis+Scramble, Arazu+Scramble perharps) ? Why Caldari (I don't see a Caldari ship that can catch a Minmatar ship even if they fly shield)? And why Amarr ? . Tell me how an Amarr armor plated ship can do to catch a Cynabal or a Vagabond. It is simply impossible without a mistake. The only Amarr ship that have a chance is the Curse... But it is another story... If you cannot be faster you should have the opportunity to make you target slower...
Of course fights with logistic ships are different. But even in these cases the faster ships will always have the opportunity to flee and to explode the enemy fleet.
And it is true that you cannot take the option to use active tank because the rig of active armor tank reduce your speed to. |
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