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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:50:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 20:52:49 Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 20:51:49
Originally by: Miilla Still i want to see the submitted reports they have to give. I am sure they are available at the register, even for a small fee. If i knew where that was lol. I will search further for the register.
Really old ones:
http://ccp.vo.llnwd.net/o2/www/ccpgames/pdf/CCP_registration_2.pdf Still better than nothing.
EDIT : hmm, appears files is no longer there. Searching for mirrors.
EDIT2 : Found it. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/OTHER/CCP_registration_2.pdf
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:51:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Terrante on 18/06/2011 20:51:58 edit: see above post
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:53:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:53:28 Read my last scenario for liquidation profiting then. technically if that is the case, then the holder of a STOCKPILE of PLEXs can get their finaincial debt repaid by a liquidator.
If it is a financial liability.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Miilla Read my last scenarion for liquidation profiting then.
Fine, a POTENTIAL financial liability. Only for revenue reduction purposes, and only when people choose to apply it in-game for gametime. Not for liquidation purposes, not for reclaiming purposes, not for any other possible purposes whatsoever. Now stop this nonsense. _
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:56:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla Read my last scenarion for liquidation profiting then.
Fine, a POTENTIAL financial liability. Only for revenue reduction purposes, and only when people choose to apply it in-game for gametime. Not for liquidation purposes, not for reclaiming purposes, not for any other possible purposes whatsoever. Now stop this nonsense.
But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:57:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:53:28 Read my last scenario for liquidation profiting then. technically if that is the case, then the holder of a STOCKPILE of PLEXs can get their finaincial debt repaid by a liquidator.
If it is a financial liability.
Yeah but depending of what is left at the time of liquidation you may get nothing, same as any other guy holding an iou from CCP.
Plus don't forget. If you bought the PLEX ingame with ISK, how are you going to proof to the liquidator that you are holding them? They do not physically exist. Just a number somewhere in a CCP database.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:58:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Terrante
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 20:53:28 Read my last scenario for liquidation profiting then. technically if that is the case, then the holder of a STOCKPILE of PLEXs can get their finaincial debt repaid by a liquidator.
If it is a financial liability.
Yeah but depending of what is left at the time of liquidation you may get nothing, same as any other guy holding an iou from CCP.
Plus don't forget. If you bought the PLEX ingame with ISK, how are you going to proof to the liquidator that you are holding them? They do not physically exist. Just a number somewhere in a CCP database.
Yes, the database. that CAN be used in that case. It is a record of the owners of the liability and their financial statements show the total liabilities. Not hard to do.
The destruction of the database would be a criminal offense in that case as it is a record of ownership of liabilities.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.18 20:59:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
You're free to try to go to court with that. Your return will most likely be at most 45 to 52.50 USD (or EUR). If even that. _
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:00:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:01:05
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
You're free to try to go to court with that. Your return will most likely be at most 45 to 52.50 USD (or EUR). If even that.
you have to submit your claim to the liquidator with all the rest of the debtors.
But the process is the same.
If you are careful record keeping enough, that COULD be the next profiting for failing MMO's with "financial liabilities" in game.
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Kerrisone
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:02:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla Read my last scenarion for liquidation profiting then.
Fine, a POTENTIAL financial liability. Only for revenue reduction purposes, and only when people choose to apply it in-game for gametime. Not for liquidation purposes, not for reclaiming purposes, not for any other possible purposes whatsoever. Now stop this nonsense.
But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
Obligation ends when you get your GTC or PLEX in game, you paid money and got what they promised you. Anything after that falls under the TOS/EULA of the game, if the company/games goes under you get squat. If you didn't get your GTC/PLEX when you paid for it you can seek that money back but not once you've gotten the item chosen not to do anything with it and the company goes under or the game shuts down. From that point on you are probably SOL to get a refund for a service that is no longer offered which is almost always mentioned in TOS/EULA that they don't have to refund you if they are out of business or shut down the service.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:02:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Akita T on 18/06/2011 21:03:08 So who cares ? It only has the vague possibility of having any meaning if CCP//EVE goes under. And your changes are slim as fudge. _
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Saving Face
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Miilla
But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:03:03
Originally by: Akita T So who cares ? It only has any meaning if CCP//EVE goes under.
Just extrapolating :)
or as Cylons say, "projecting".
:)
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:03:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:01:05
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
You're free to try to go to court with that. Your return will most likely be at most 45 to 52.50 USD (or EUR). If even that.
you have to submit your claim to the liquidator with all the rest of the debtors.
But the process is the same.
If you are careful record keeping enough, that COULD be the next profiting for failing MMO's with "financial liabilities" in game.
Yes. If you are a gambler I'd say go for it. You can actually do the same thing in RL with Junk-Bonds or Greek IOU's
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:05:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:05:37
Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Miilla
But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP.
You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either.
It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards.
Heh Junk bonds CAN be VERY profitable if you do it right. Don't be deterred by the term JUNK, I am actually watching Irish Junk Bonds currently.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:06:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP.
You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards.
EVE EULA, #14
"LIMITATION OF LIABILITY Except as set forth below, CCP's maximum liability for any and all claims arising out of or in connection with your Account, the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content, EULA, and any other services or materials provided in connection therewith, shall not exceed an amount equal to the value of one (1) month's subscription fees.
In the event of a material breach of CCP's obligations to provide access to and use of your Account, the System, Game, Game Content or User Content, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a refund of any pre-paid subscription fees attributable to the period during which you were denied such access and use, or an amount equal to the value of three (3) months' subscription fees, whichever is less. In the event of a malfunction of or your inability to use the CD-ROM containing the Software, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a replacement disk from the vendor that provided the CD-ROM in accordance with its replacement policy; CCP shall have no liability for the CD-ROM.
If any of the foregoing disclaimers or limitations of liability are declared to be void or unenforceable, then CCP's liability shall be limited to the maximum extent permissible under applicable law. The remedies set forth herein are exclusive and in lieu of all other remedies, oral or written, express or implied."
_
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:08:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:08:48
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Miilla But it is an obligation and it has a fait currency value, at the point of purchase, it is a promisary note. The obligation has not been met, it has to be repaid.
Keep in mind that you don't actually own the PLEX; as any other in-game item, it remains property of CCP.
You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either. It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards.
EVE EULA, #14
"LIMITATION OF LIABILITY Except as set forth below, CCP's maximum liability for any and all claims arising out of or in connection with your Account, the Software, System, Game, Game Content, User Content, EULA, and any other services or materials provided in connection therewith, shall not exceed an amount equal to the value of one (1) month's subscription fees.
In the event of a material breach of CCP's obligations to provide access to and use of your Account, the System, Game, Game Content or User Content, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a refund of any pre-paid subscription fees attributable to the period during which you were denied such access and use, or an amount equal to the value of three (3) months' subscription fees, whichever is less. In the event of a malfunction of or your inability to use the CD-ROM containing the Software, your sole and exclusive remedy shall be a replacement disk from the vendor that provided the CD-ROM in accordance with its replacement policy; CCP shall have no liability for the CD-ROM.
If any of the foregoing disclaimers or limitations of liability are declared to be void or unenforceable, then CCP's liability shall be limited to the maximum extent permissible under applicable law. The remedies set forth herein are exclusive and in lieu of all other remedies, oral or written, express or implied."
Which could be challenged.
Many many times, what a company claims and says, has been countered in court and found incorrect.
Just whether you pursue it or not depends on what you think you have to gain, if you think you could gain a lot, go for it.
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:09:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Miilla
Heh Junk bonds CAN be VERY profitable if you do it right. Don't be deterred by the term JUNK, I am actually watching Irish Junk Bonds currently.
Indeed, very profitale. But the risk is there
Also: Just imagine you stocked PLEX by the hundreds and suddenly CCP decides to put an expiry date on them
In the middle of the game they change the rules. Oh, that actually sounds familiar...
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Saving Face
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Miilla You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either.
It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards.
I do own the bank note. I can never own a PLEX.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:11:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Terrante
Originally by: Miilla
Heh Junk bonds CAN be VERY profitable if you do it right. Don't be deterred by the term JUNK, I am actually watching Irish Junk Bonds currently.
Indeed, very profitale. But the risk is there
Also: Just imagine you stocked PLEX by the hundreds and suddenly CCP decides to put an expiry date on them
In the middle of the game they change the rules. Oh, that actually sounds familiar...
"fluid/changing" contracts are deemed illegal in lots of EU countries. There has been cases here in this member state (yes I know Iceland is EEA but it is still very aligned in many ways with regards to commerce) where contracts for services HAVE been challenged and ruled against the contracter.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:11:00 -
[81]
Last time I checked, even shrink-wrap EULAs have started being valid in court. This one is not quite a shrink-wrap EULA, and you have to occasionally re-agree with it. Good luck challenging it. By the way, you'll also probably going to need an Icelandic lawyer. Oh, and in case you think of not judging this in Iceland, get in line behind the UK crying for refunds after the Icelandic banks collapsed.
_
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:12:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Akita T ... Good luck challenging it. By the way, you'll also probably going to need an Icelandic lawyer. Oh, and in case you think of not judging this in Iceland, get in line behind the UK crying for refunds after the Icelandic banks collapsed.
QFT
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JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:18:00 -
[83]
One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel...
With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP.
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:19:00 -
[84]
Originally by: JC Anderson One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel...
With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP.
I'll bet you anything you want, that CCP will never make that figure public
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:20:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:25:14
Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Miilla You don't actually own that Dollar/Euro/Pound in your pocket either.
It is just a promisary note owned by the bank and issued by the bank. Same for your bank cards, debit cards, credit cards.
I do own the bank note. I can never own a PLEX.
You will find that the bank owns the copyright of the banknotes, not you. It is just that, a promisary note.
You will also find that the banknotes have a time limit and they get recalled periodically for various reasons. Prevention of diseases, anti fraud, reissuing etc.
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JC Anderson
Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:21:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Terrante
Originally by: JC Anderson One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel...
With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP.
I'll bet you anything you want, that CCP will never make that figure public
Yeah I am going to have to agree with you on that one.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:22:00 -
[87]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/06/2011 21:22:58
Originally by: JC Anderson
Originally by: Terrante
Originally by: JC Anderson One thing I am curious about is how often PLEX ends up destroyed in somebody's cargo hold.. Much like the 74 PLEX in the Kestrel...
With those, CCP essentially gets money for nothing... They are destroyed just like any other item and the only party that ends up with anything from it is CCP.
I'll bet you anything you want, that CCP will never make that figure public
Yeah I am going to have to agree with you on that one.
It should be deducable from their finance reports if you can find the register and factor out all their other liabilities and check with the ingame markets and perhaps killboards.
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Saving Face
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:25:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Miilla
You will find that the bank owns the copyright of the banknotes, not you. It is just that, a promisary note.
\
Sure, it owns the copyright. Copyright is not transferable where I am, they could not give it to me even if they wanted to. How does that matter? I don't want to print more bank notes.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:26:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Saving Face
Originally by: Miilla
You will find that the bank owns the copyright of the banknotes, not you. It is just that, a promisary note.
\
Sure, it owns the copyright. Copyright is not transferable where I am, they could not give it to me even if they wanted to. How does that matter? I don't want to print more bank notes.
You will also find that the banknotes have a time limit and they get recalled periodically for various reasons. Prevention of diseases, anti fraud, reissuing etc.
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Terrante
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Posted - 2011.06.18 21:29:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Terrante on 18/06/2011 21:29:52
Originally by: Miilla
It should be deducable from their finance reports if you can find the register and factor out all their other liabilities and check with the ingame markets and perhaps killboards.
Yeah, prolly could. But I don't know if you can find a public register of their financial reports. Wouldn't know what Icelandic law is in respect of privatly held companies.
It just came to me by the way, that PLEX are prolly CCP accountant's worst nightmare. They are basically a liability without an expiry date on them. So if the PLEX stockpile gets huge there is a chance of the liabilty becomming too high, plus it would prolly severly disrupt the cash-flow CCP gets.
It would have been much better from a CCP viewpoint to have put expiry dates on all of the PLEX.
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