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Resender
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:13:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Robert Caldera basic game mechanics are and should be uncounterable, they set the scene the game is played in, so pls go away and take you counter bull**** with you.
Rock beats scissors,scissors beats paper,paper beats rock. By your logic there shouldn't be a counter for basic game mechanics.
Does cloaking belong to the basic game mechanic, NO. It's a tactical advantage depending on someone's skill and everything that skill dependant should be counterable. To give an easy example when you start a character you will start with a least level 1 frigate for that characters race, this is a basic game mechanic, yet it is counterable.
An uncounterable base mechanic is jumping trough a stargate without having a non-npc agression timer.
In real life stealth bombers are invisible to radar but that doesn't mean that they can't be shot down. In every sci-fi I know that has at least some form of cloak there is way to discern it even if its really hard. The element of suprise remains the cloaker bomber best friend, but that doesn't meant that he should be 100% undetectable until he decloaks.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:23:00 -
[32]
cloaking is a basic game mechanic, like jumping through a gate, being docked, getting SP etc.
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Resender
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:26:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Resender on 21/06/2011 11:26:17 Explain to me how cloaking through the use of a cloaking device is a basic mechanic. Cause in my opinion everything you do in game that does not require you to explicitly train a skill is a base mechanic.
You have to train skills to use a cloaking device so in my opinion not a base mechanic, gate cloak on the other hand is a base mechanic.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.21 11:29:00 -
[34]
where do you see the interconnection between skills and mechanics being a requirement for a basic mechanic?
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Resender
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:04:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/06/2011 11:32:48
Where do you see the interconnection between skills and mechanics being a requirement for a basic mechanic?
Using implants is a basic mechanic, you cant counter. You still requre skills to do that.
Using a jumpclone is a basic mechanic, you cant counter. You still require skills to install one.
*If I pod your clone the implants are gone, that's a counter cause you lose the advantage until you rebuy them. *If I pod you and you have an insufficient clone and you lose a skill level that is prerequisite to the skill your currently training the skill training stops (rare scenario but it happens) *You don't really need skills to fly a shuttle or noob ship doesn't mean they can't be bubbled, neuted or webbed. *You don't really need skills to use civilian weapons doesn't mean that they always hit or that you suddenly become invulnerable to ECM. *Boosters are illegal in empire so you can't use them there. *Nobody can stop you from jumpcloning, doesn't mean that you can install a new jump clone in a hostile station.
I understand you want to both defend your point and attack people that seemingly want to suggest something to change something that you consider fundamental. But at least under build your argument.
Cause you say base mechanics should be uncounterable but then you sum up a few things that are indeed basic to the game but that are perfectly counterable.
There's a difference between a base mechanic and its effect being counterable.
To return to the cloaking let say I'm hunting your cloaked ship down by moving through every cubic mm of that system and your AFK the whole time. Let say for argument that I do bumb you within the 23 hours between dt's and decloak did I then not counter your cloak.
Now what some people want and I agree is that it should be possible to find an AFK cloaker without having to sweep the entire system.
As an IT-guy I can also put in weight, as in every person in a system uses resources. The question in case of cloakers should they consume these resources while pursuing something active or waisting them by being passive/afk all the time.
Cause that's what people that suggest cloak nerves are more about making an end about people and bots that do nothing in game don't contribute to the gaming experience of themselves or others.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.21 12:20:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 21/06/2011 12:23:36
Originally by: Resender
*If I pod your clone the implants are gone, that's a counter cause you lose the advantage until you rebuy them. *If I pod you and you have an insufficient clone and you lose a skill level that is prerequisite to the skill your currently training the skill training stops (rare scenario but it happens) *You don't really need skills to fly a shuttle or noob ship doesn't mean they can't be bubbled, neuted or webbed. *You don't really need skills to use civilian weapons doesn't mean that they always hit or that you suddenly become invulnerable to ECM. *Boosters are illegal in empire so you can't use them there. *Nobody can stop you from jumpcloning, doesn't mean that you can install a new jump clone in a hostile station.
you perfectly proved there is no connection between a skill requirement and basic mechanic classification.
Originally by: Resender Cause you say base mechanics should be uncounterable but then you sum up a few things that are indeed basic to the game but that are perfectly counterable.
in your view of things, even cloak is counterable, like the implants. All you need is just the stupidity of the owner to let you blow him up. I he does not want to and thus avoid all risks (stay cloaked, stay docked), you wont counter anything.
Originally by: Resender To return to the cloaking let say I'm hunting your cloaked ship down by moving through every cubic mm of that system and your AFK the whole time. Let say for argument that I do bumb you within the 23 hours between dt's and decloak did I then not counter your cloak.
This is exactly the weak point of cloaks, coming closer than 2000m will disable them.
Originally by: Resender Now what some people want and I agree is that it should be possible to find an AFK cloaker without having to sweep the entire system.
I understand you and many others want that.
Originally by: Resender Cause that's what people that suggest cloak nerves are more about making an end about people and bots that do nothing in game don't contribute to the gaming experience of themselves or others.
but they do something! Twirl your mind, frighten you of hotdrop and actually kill stuff when you think they are afk!! Thats their whole purpose. Even blocking an anomaly is doing something, isnt it? Preventing anomany from respawning and driving you to forums.
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Suiginryou Hitaiga
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:08:00 -
[37]
There are two kinds of countermeasures in eve: global and local. Global countermeasure works as long as you can get the device(s) to work and have a target. Local countermeasures require a special set of circumstances, implying some (or deep) understanding of game mechanics. From the user's point of view, global counter is what has a small, set number of ways out to be used by target; local counter, on the other hand, allows the target natural freedom of maneuver, therefore being much more difficult to pull out - compared to "i push this button and you die or push that button so we switch".
Sorry for a long intro, it was needed to prevent inevitable shftstorm. So, what I wanted to say was that: there IS a counter for cloaking. It's a local counter called "bumping". Granted, it's not as easy to pull off, but still, it's a working countermeasure and it exists.
Therefore, no global counter-cloaking needed. ___ Remove insurance payouts for concord kills Make wardecs expensive and declinable Make SS go -1.0 per offense Remove L4 agents from hisec Allow non-corp hisec POS and moon mining |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari Hikivirta Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.06.21 13:43:00 -
[38]
There's too much cloaking this and that in eve. Way too many ships can cloak on whim, ppl even keep fitting cloaks on minmatar boats which are already pretty fast to run away, hell, I even see cloaking tempests at belts nowadays.
I think fitting a cloak should have either harsher fitting requirement or other serious disadvantages on offensive side, beside scan res penalty which can be countered via sensor boosters or just small size.
AFK cloaking itself is fine, if we're thinking that one guy goes make a dinner for himself and cloaks up. OK. That's perfectly fine. Or some guy is TEMPORARILY scouting some system. OK. Fine again.
But if you put some dude just sitting in system 23/7 for scouting purposes or cynoing whatever. I do not think there's enough skill and effort required there, considering the ship is completely invulnerable during that time. It is pretty much comparable to level 4 missioning in hi sec, effort wise. Imo.
I think adding a small fuel bay for cloak, which would consume some type of fuel (fuel bay should be enough for hour or two) I have no clue and you'd need to go refuel somewhere so you can keep your cloak activated would be nice idea, lkie somewhere suggested. That way cloaking would actually require some kind of effort (getting more fuel) and risk (getting through gate whatever to get more fuel). I think even mining gas cloud for fuel with salvager or something actually specialized carebear thingy would be okay.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2011.06.22 00:00:00 -
[39]
I think you're making two erroneous assumptions
#1. Cloaking is a basic game mechanic - What is your definition of a basic game mechanic? because by that logic warp scrambling, energy neutralization and armor hardening are all basic game mechanics . . . that doesnt seem quite right to me.
#2 Basic game mechanics shouldnt have counters - Even flying your ship around is countered by webification
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flapie 2
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.22 03:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Here's the thing, an AFK cloaker is just that. AFK. If he's in a system, you can always move a jump over. He can only be in one system at a time. If he moves, you know he's an active threat.
System renters arenot allowed to move, and i can think of loads of things why there should be a contra to cloack.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.22 08:56:00 -
[41]
Originally by: flapie 2
System renters arenot allowed to move
found your problem. Stop renting and join a real alliance.
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Sigras
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Posted - 2011.06.22 09:25:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
Originally by: flapie 2
System renters are not allowed to move
found your problem. Stop renting and join a real alliance.
Youre making a straw man logical fallacy . . . whether or not renting a system is good or acceptable to you is your problem and doesnt make any difference to the fact that cloaking has no counters.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.22 09:31:00 -
[43]
there are many things in eve without any counter. in you rent 1 system, you are a perfest targen for camping and tears generation because you cant simply move like any other regular 0.0 inhabitant. this is actually your problem, not cloak stop being a renter *****t or accept campers in your system
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Fafnir Drake
Gallente Boob Heads Fat Kids Cause Lag
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Posted - 2011.06.22 10:40:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sigras I dont want you to cloak any more so i . . . i . . . leave the system? See with everything else in Eve there is something I can do to stop my enemy from accomplishing what he wants to do, why should cloaking be different?
I believe that you should never be safe in Eve unless you're logged off or in a station . . . well, considering I also want destructible stations, Im going to say that you should never be safe in Eve unless youre logged off or in a high sec station.
Am I wrong?
Wrong? No. This is mostly opinions. However, I'm going to disagree with you. Not everything needs an absolute counter because not everything is absolutely effective. Cloaking is no exception. ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure." |
t'raq mardon
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Posted - 2011.06.22 14:02:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Robert Caldera there are many things in eve without any counter. in you rent 1 system, you are a perfest targen for camping and tears generation because you cant simply move like any other regular 0.0 inhabitant. this is actually your problem, not cloak stop being a renter *****t or accept campers in your system
No one is complaining about campers, its the fact that the campers dont have to be at the computer to do the camping.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.22 14:09:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/06/2011 14:19:35
Originally by: t'raq mardon
Originally by: Robert Caldera there are many things in eve without any counter. in you rent 1 system, you are a perfest targen for camping and tears generation because you cant simply move like any other regular 0.0 inhabitant. this is actually your problem, not cloak stop being a renter *****t or accept campers in your system
No one is complaining about campers, its the fact that the campers dont have to be at the computer to do the camping.
its one of many afk activities in eve. Didnt I write it already or do you suffer some reading difficulties?? You can do a lot of things afk or even logged off. For afk cloaky camp you are required being online at least.
Trom times to times they should be there and check for targets, entirely afk camping does not make any sense. They are maybe afk for the most time but thats ok and required for camping. Why should you be forced to sit there if nothing is happening most of the time? If this kind of camping would not be possible, 0.0 systems were too safe for everything, thats unacceptable. If one invests his account into camping semi-afk thats ok and fair deal.
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t'raq mardon
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Posted - 2011.06.22 14:31:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
its one of many afk activities in eve. Didnt I write it already or do you suffer some reading difficulties?? You can do a lot of things afk or even logged off. For afk cloaky camp you are required being online at least.
Trom times to times they should be there and check for targets, entirely afk camping does not make any sense. They are maybe afk for the most time but thats ok and required for camping. Why should you be forced to sit there if nothing is happening most of the time? If this kind of camping would not be possible, 0.0 systems were too safe for everything, thats unacceptable. If one invests his account into camping semi-afk thats ok and fair deal.
No, its not ok or fair deal. If someone wants to stop/slow others earning isk by cloaky camping their system, then they should have to be at the computer while they are doing so. Further, its the only afk activity in eve that you are in space and uncounterable.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.22 14:41:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/06/2011 14:42:32
Originally by: t'raq mardon
No, its not ok or fair deal. If someone wants to stop/slow others earning isk by cloaky camping their system, then they should have to be at the computer while they are doing so.
sure it is. Its you who are bothering about other people in space, not he bothering about you. Generally, everyone is allowed to be in any part of the eve universe without any repercussion if you take precautions like cloak, why should that be different?? Space is free for all and its your problem you want ratting there.
Originally by: t'raq mardon Further, its the only afk activity in eve that you are in space and uncounterable.
even if it was the only afk activity, so wtf?? But its not, you are getting SP in space afk I cant counter that.
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Salomei
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Posted - 2011.06.22 15:35:00 -
[49]
Possible counters to cloaky surprise hotdrops. YMMV.
- High-alpha, fast locker to insta the cyno boat as it pulls in - Larger support fleet - Fly aligned, be alert - Warp stabs
Leaving your expensive ships vulnerable to certain attacks is your own damn fault. Plan for bad situations or be a less juicy target. Most ships in EVE are vulnerable to something when they're alone, so the better pilots learn to avoid or counter those situations.
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Natalie Dorgiers
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Posted - 2011.06.22 15:38:00 -
[50]
WTF is the point of covops ships if they can't surprise people or screw with them psychologically? It's exactly what the ships exist for.
Working as intended, let alone needing a nerf.
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Salomei
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Posted - 2011.06.22 15:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: t'raq mardon No, its not ok or fair deal. If someone wants to stop/slow others earning isk by cloaky camping their system, then they should have to be at the computer while they are doing so. Further, its the only afk activity in eve that you are in space and uncounterable.
Fursther suggestions: - your orders and contracts are inactive and invisible while AFK - training stops while AFK - research/manufacturing stops while AFK
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Fafnir Drake
Gallente Boob Heads Fat Kids Cause Lag
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Posted - 2011.06.22 18:59:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Natalie Dorgiers WTF is the point of covops ships if they can't surprise people or screw with them psychologically? It's exactly what the ships exist for.
Working as intended, let alone needing a nerf.
Quite frankly, this.
Until they do a massive overhaul of the ship scanner and local, they can't really touch cloaks much without neutering them. ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure." |
Sigras
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Posted - 2011.06.22 19:19:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Fafnir Drake
Originally by: Natalie Dorgiers WTF is the point of covops ships if they can't surprise people or screw with them psychologically? It's exactly what the ships exist for.
Working as intended, let alone needing a nerf.
Quite frankly, this.
Until they do a massive overhaul of the ship scanner and local, they can't really touch cloaks much without neutering them.
I agree that cloaking should have the complete element of surprise, but I believe they can make a change without totally making them useless.
my idea is to remove the scan resolution reduction, cut the sensor recalibration by 75%, and reduce the speed reduction by 50%, this should provide a huge buff to ships trying to run a cloak
The nerf comes in the form of a new probe able to put into the interdiction sphere launcher that puts out a visible flash on grid and gives the dictor an arrow to where every object is on grid including cloaked ships. This arrow would not follow the ship as it moved, and to get an updated group of arrows you need to launch another probe, so if the pilot is actually at their ship they can simply move because the speed reduction has been reduced.
The second change is that probes actually work against a cloaked ship but they will only get you within 50 km, thats as close as they will possibly get you, so again, if the pilot is actually at their ship, they can just align and warp off to a new safe spot.
I doubt these changes will reduce their effectiveness at all and will increase the effectiveness of certain ships.
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Jentar Cylor
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Posted - 2011.06.22 22:55:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Robert Caldera Edited by: Robert Caldera on 22/06/2011 14:42:32
Originally by: t'raq mardon
No, its not ok or fair deal. If someone wants to stop/slow others earning isk by cloaky camping their system, then they should have to be at the computer while they are doing so.
sure it is. Its you who are bothering about other people in space, not he bothering about you. Generally, everyone is allowed to be in any part of the eve universe without any repercussion if you take precautions like cloak, why should that be different?? Space is free for all and its your problem you want ratting there.
Originally by: t'raq mardon Further, its the only afk activity in eve that you are in space and uncounterable.
even if it was the only afk activity, so wtf?? But its not, you are getting SP in space afk I cant counter that.
So basically what your saying is your a skill less newb who can only grief other players by using an uncounterable game flaw. And in order to prevent you from becoming a completely ignorable, your going to sit in the forums and cry in an attempt to prevent your only weapon from being fixed..
Got it.....
As for your pathetic attempt at justification by pointing out skill points, they are dramatically different. You don't have to be logged in to gain skill points, you do to be cloaked. So clearly cloaking is an in-game activity where skills training is not. I know, this concept might be a little complicated for you, maybe ask a friend to clarify?
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t'raq mardon
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Posted - 2011.06.23 05:32:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Robert Caldera
even if it was the only afk activity, so wtf?? But its not, you are getting SP in space afk I cant counter that.
You are countering me gaining skill points, by gaining skill points of your own. Since gaining skill point only directly affects me, they are countered by you gaining skill point in a counter field. IE, if i am training turret skills, you can counter that by training armor skills in order to nullify the additional damage. You could actually train a multitude of different skills to combat the indirect effect felt by me gaining SP.
Further, if i were to be podded without a proper clone i would lose SP, there by directly countering my SP gain. So SP is very much counterable. Cloaking on the other hand is not.
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Danika Princip
Minmatar Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2011.06.23 13:40:00 -
[56]
Originally by: t'raq mardon
Originally by: Robert Caldera
even if it was the only afk activity, so wtf?? But its not, you are getting SP in space afk I cant counter that.
You are countering me gaining skill points, by gaining skill points of your own. Since gaining skill point only directly affects me, they are countered by you gaining skill point in a counter field. IE, if i am training turret skills, you can counter that by training armor skills in order to nullify the additional damage. You could actually train a multitude of different skills to combat the indirect effect felt by me gaining SP.
Further, if i were to be podded without a proper clone i would lose SP, there by directly countering my SP gain. So SP is very much counterable. Cloaking on the other hand is not.
Do you even read what you post?
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:08:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: t'raq mardon Stuff.....
Do you even read what you post?
As I've said before, at least t'raq is consistent. He never lets facts, get in the way of a good argument.
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it.
Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
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Discrodia
Gallente Symbiosis International Moose Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:13:00 -
[58]
It's not a big problem. The people who cry about it, however, are.
Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
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t'raq mardon
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Posted - 2011.06.23 15:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mag's
Originally by: Danika Princip
Originally by: t'raq mardon Stuff.....
Do you even read what you post?
As I've said before, at least t'raq is consistent. He never lets facts, get in the way of a good argument.
Was anything i said inaccurate? do you not have the ability to train for a counter to anything i train for? except cloaking of course since it has no counter.
The truth is that you have run out of excuses and are left to simply say that I'm lying. At least i am honest enough to change my opinion when a valid point is made. You on the other hand refuse to even have a discussion but instead throw accusation to avoid having to admit you are wrong.
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Robert Caldera
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Posted - 2011.06.23 16:18:00 -
[60]
so if being able to do the same is a counter, then why dont you just cloak up an alt in the same system where the afk cloaker lives and voila, he's countered!!! Can we close this thread now? thxbai
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