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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:05:00 -
[91]
Originally by: iudex
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.
I'm one of those 0.0-missionrunners-in-hostile-space and was one of the first to use the Tengu for that purpose.
Why do you feel entitled to complete time expensive content in the face of enemies?
I recall when we wanted to do L4 in low sec or 0.0 we'd team up and secure such space. Reward came with effort and was realistic (in the sense that it's expected you are required to clean up hostiles before farming in their home).
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:14:00 -
[92]
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: OllieNorth
I have to agree that it would make sense to not be able to cloak while probes are out, or have it so that when you cloak, you lose contact with your probes.
Now hear this!
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.
Can you say 'double standard'? If unprobability can no longer be achieved without being cloaked, then scanning should not be allowed cloaked either.
This was of course never really about balance. Just wish they'd at least drop the pretence.
Getting a warpable hit on someone can be done with zero risk, but there is nothing intrinsically rewarding about getting a warpable hit. In order to actually use it, and reap any kind of reward from it, someone, somewhere, needs to uncloak and engage.
Yes and no, since the ship doing the probing is usually someone's alt and wont actually be doing the fighting. What these people tend to do is probe out the person, get a ship type, they also see what wrecks are being generated during the mission so they essentially know what his tank is going to be. Therefore they will adjust their PVP fitted ship accordingly with proper ammo, and mods before they go in to engage. With all this information, on top of the pve'er already engaged in battle against npcs there is little to no risk for those people pursuing missioners. You can argue well someone has to uncloak somewhere argument all day but it is invalid, and unbalanced. I don't see how pvp'ers are risking anything for their reward. A proper balance would be to only combat probe while uncloaked. I can't believe I just said this to a ccp guy, you guys really should know better.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Vahrokh Consulting
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:20:00 -
[93]
Quote:
while we are on the subject of risk vs. reward.... where is the risk a covert ops ship is taking to probe down another ship? why isn't there risk? Why not make it so that when a covert ops ship launches combat probes they cannot cloak until the probes are recovered?
Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt
Getting a warpable hit on someone can be done with zero risk, but there is nothing intrinsically rewarding about getting a warpable hit. In order to actually use it, and reap any kind of reward from it, someone, somewhere, needs to uncloak and engage.
Yes and no, since the ship doing the probing is usually someone's alt and wont actually be doing the fighting. What these people tend to do is probe out the person, get a ship type, they also see what wrecks are being generated during the mission so they essentially know what his tank is going to be. Therefore they will adjust their PVP fitted ship accordingly with proper ammo, and mods before they go in to engage. With all this information, on top of the pve'er already engaged in battle against npcs there is little to no risk for those people pursuing missioners. You can argue well someone has to uncloak somewhere argument all day but it is invalid, and unbalanced. I don't see how pvp'ers are risking anything for their reward. A proper balance would be to only combat probe while uncloaked. I can't believe I just said this to a ccp guy, you guys really should know better.
A cov ops is an extremely specialized ship meant to... "cov" ops. It costs 1 account, it can't kill, it can't really do a lot more than its niche.
On the other side you have a T3 that can do other things including being unprobeable (before nerf) but also solo PvE content.
The PvPer in order to perform his business has to use 2 accounts to scan and engage you *and still deal with all the risks* (other PvPers, being baited etc) while you just needed 1 account to do yours and with no risk.
Auditing | Research | 3rd Party | Collateral Holding | EvE RL Charity |
OllieNorth
Gallente
Interstellar Entrepreneurs
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:21:00 -
[94]
Quote:
I don't see how pvp'ers are risking anything for their reward.
It seems like you think it is as easy for a pvper to kill a bear as it is for you to kill that Pithi Conjunctivator BS in your mission. And frankly, use your dang D-scan if you're in low. You won't be getting warped in on by a pirate in every mission you run, even if you are being completely careless, so you will have many opportunities to make ISK without danger. For the pirate, EVERY time he tries to make money by hunting you down, he is in danger. That is the difference. He can't kill you (make ISK) without risk, you can kill many many many rats (many many many ISK) with intermittent risk. If anything, it is still unbalanced in your favor.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:34:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
A cov ops is an extremely specialized ship meant to... "cov" ops. It costs 1 account, it can't kill, it can't really do a lot more than its niche.
On the other side you have a T3 that can do other things including being unprobeable (before nerf) but also solo PvE content.
The PvPer in order to perform his business has to use 2 accounts to scan and engage you *and still deal with all the risks* (other PvPers, being baited etc) while you just needed 1 account to do yours and with no risk.
For some reason I don't see the Falcon, Pilgrim, Rapier or Arazu as being particularly fragile ships. No need for two accounts, just the right ship fitted the right way. This ship can be using directional scan and probing while being undetectable itself. Once a warpable hit is achieved, warp in and the rest of the gang warps to the recon.
This nonsense about "the prober is someone's alt" is nonsense.
The lack of people running missions in unprobeable ships means that there will be far fewer targets. Previously there was the "bait", the small fry hunting the bait, then the bigger fish hunting the small fry. Now there will be nothing.
On the other side of the same coin though, unprobeable fleet boosters are an atrocity. Fleet boosting should be limited to ships on the same grid, and T3 ships should not be better at that job than dedicated command ships. Limiting fleet boosts to ships on the same grid will remove the need to force unprobeable setups to be probeable.
Leave the creative pirates to get the juicy "unprobeable" mission runners. Also, having rigs or some modules that reduce a ship's maximum warp speed (or speed of acceleration into warp) would be really nice.
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[Aussie players: join ANZAC channel] |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:35:00 -
[96]
Originally by: OllieNorth
Quote:
I don't see how pvp'ers are risking anything for their reward.
It seems like you think it is as easy for a pvper to kill a bear as it is for you to kill that Pithi Conjunctivator BS in your mission. And frankly, use your dang D-scan if you're in low. You won't be getting warped in on by a pirate in every mission you run, even if you are being completely careless, so you will have many opportunities to make ISK without danger. For the pirate, EVERY time he tries to make money by hunting you down, he is in danger. That is the difference. He can't kill you (make ISK) without risk, you can kill many many many rats (many many many ISK) with intermittent risk. If anything, it is still unbalanced in your favor.
* Pirate does probing from safe distance;
* Pirate finds target;
* Pirate + fleet warp to target;
* Easy alpha-strike kill on already having taken dmg PvE ship;
* Profit.
Risk for the pirate gang? Virtually zero. D-Scan will keep most sensible PvE-ers alive, but a mission gank is easily made otherwise.
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Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.21 22:44:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Kamikaze jihawt on 21/06/2011 22:44:52
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha
A cov ops is an extremely specialized ship meant to... "cov" ops. It costs 1 account, it can't kill, it can't really do a lot more than its niche.
On the other side you have a T3 that can do other things including being unprobeable (before nerf) but also solo PvE content.
The PvPer in order to perform his business has to use 2 accounts to scan and engage you *and still deal with all the risks* (other PvPers, being baited etc) while you just needed 1 account to do yours and with no risk.
For some reason I don't see the Falcon, Pilgrim, Rapier or Arazu as being particularly fragile ships. No need for two accounts, just the right ship fitted the right way. This ship can be using directional scan and probing while being undetectable itself. Once a warpable hit is achieved, warp in and the rest of the gang warps to the recon.
This nonsense about "the prober is someone's alt" is nonsense.
The lack of people running missions in unprobeable ships means that there will be far fewer targets. Previously there was the "bait", the small fry hunting the bait, then the bigger fish hunting the small fry. Now there will be nothing.
On the other side of the same coin though, unprobeable fleet boosters are an atrocity. Fleet boosting should be limited to ships on the same grid, and T3 ships should not be better at that job than dedicated command ships. Limiting fleet boosts to ships on the same grid will remove the need to force unprobeable setups to be probeable.
Leave the creative pirates to get the juicy "unprobeable" mission runners. Also, having rigs or some modules that reduce a ship's maximum warp speed (or speed of acceleration into warp) would be really nice.
I understand what you say about the prober not always being the alt. However the probes are called combat probes, what they specialize in is information warfare, which in a way is an indirect form of combat. All ships in this game in order to take part in combat are required to uncloak, if a ship is engaging in information warfare, it is literally engaging in combat with the person he is trying to probe down, and should have to uncloak too, imo. I agree with you about unprobable boosters, however to me that was always an on grid/off grid type of matter. Overall I agree with you, I was just responding to everyone by replying to your comment. :)
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.21 23:00:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt
I understand what you say about the prober not always being the alt. However the probes are called combat probes, what they specialize in is information warfare, which in a way is an indirect form of combat. All ships in this game in order to take part in combat are required to uncloak, if a ship is engaging in information warfare, it is literally engaging in combat with the person he is trying to probe down, and should have to uncloak too, imo.
100% agreed. I'm not really all that invested in it, though. I mean, probing can be done from such a ridiculous long distance anyway, relative to the target, that it makes little practical difference to me whether a prober 20 AU away is cloaked or not. In principle, I agree, though.
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Redshirt O'Kadorian
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Posted - 2011.06.21 23:29:00 -
[99]
OK, well that took away any remaining fun that could be had flying a space ship.
I guess I will be in Jita selling one trit for ten billion ISK by the usual deceit.
I guess given you can have a fun, winnable game or a crap-fest, I guess crap is all we are going to get.
Thanks for all the CRAP CCP! |
Vikarion
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2011.06.21 23:39:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Vikarion on 21/06/2011 23:41:30
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: grootgroot
I was at the PVE presentation at fanfest this year. In response to a question about how it was unviable to mission in low/nullsec, one of the CCP guys (forgot his name, sorry) replied he regularly missioned in low/null an unprobeable T3.
That was me. 
I'm quite familiar with the use of the tactic. So are others in CCP. The suspicions I stated earlier are based on that knowledge. I know what sort of thinking goes into using the strategy (and it's a lot more than "copypasta from Battleclinic" as some people seem to think...you still had to use your brain to mitigate risk, and really work hard to eliminate it entirely) and suspect that those types of people will be more than smart enough to find other ways to achieve similar ends.
You are exactly right, I am going to adapt.
I'm going to adapt by playing Eve a lot less.
Making ISK missioning in 0.0 wasn't risk-free by any means: I had to use a billion-ISK ship, I had to watch every gate and station undock for hostiles, and I had to carefully move every LP-store item back to high-sec and ammunition back out to Curse.
Considering how long every mission took, thanks to the gimped set-up an unprobe-able tengu requires, the added vulnerability to NPCs, and the constant danger, I could easily have made more ISK just missioning in hi-sec. I missioned in 0.0 because I liked the danger and challenge of making a profit in a hostile area.
You've just made that impossible. Almost every other alliance or pirate member that comes along has a max-skilled prober alt just to try to catch people like me - heck, I had one. And once they find you or your mission they sit on it for days or hours. In short, once they start probing, you might as well log out for the night if your ship can be probed. And now you've made it to where all ships can.
I don't know what possessed you at CCP to ruin another part of the game. Stealth missioning was fun and engaging. It kept me logging in. FW is worthless, 0.0 alliances, PvP, and politics are vomit-inducing, and every other form of PvE Eve offers is mind-numbingly boring save for incursions, and those require 10+ man teams. It's like you absolutely despise anyone who doesn't play as part of a major group.
To hell with that.
P.S. I have been playing since 2007. I'm beginning to regret that I ever started.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.22 00:43:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Vikarion
It's like you absolutely despise anyone who doesn't play as part of a major group.
Massively Multiplayer, not Miniature Singleplayer.
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Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.22 00:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Vikarion
It's like you absolutely despise anyone who doesn't play as part of a major group.
Massively Multiplayer, not Miniature Singleplayer.
Yet they just instituted the noble system which allows you to completely customize you the singleplayer. come on, because lots of people play this game doesn't mean you have to do everything with them.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.22 00:55:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Vikarion
It's like you absolutely despise anyone who doesn't play as part of a major group.
Massively Multiplayer, not Miniature Singleplayer.
Yet they just instituted the noble system which allows you to completely customize you the singleplayer. come on, because lots of people play this game doesn't mean you have to do everything with them.
Customize for an expansion coming out Soon to include the entire station with other players. This isn't a single player game.
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Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.22 01:17:00 -
[104]
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt
Originally by: EnderCapitalG
Originally by: Vikarion
It's like you absolutely despise anyone who doesn't play as part of a major group.
Massively Multiplayer, not Miniature Singleplayer.
Yet they just instituted the noble system which allows you to completely customize you the singleplayer. come on, because lots of people play this game doesn't mean you have to do everything with them.
Customize for an expansion coming out Soon to include the entire station with other players. This isn't a single player game.
Oh you are a goon, this makes sense. Keep stroking ccp weiner.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.22 01:20:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt
Oh you are a goon, this makes sense. Keep stroking ccp weiner.
Nice ad hominem attack that has nothing to do with my post.
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Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.22 01:23:00 -
[106]
It's because I know goons well enough that anything I say will be wrong to them because they are ccp fanbois, and thinks ccp can do no wrong.
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EnderCapitalG
Caldari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.22 01:24:00 -
[107]
You're confusing Goons with Pandemic Legion. Goons have widely criticized CCP many times since coming to this game.
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CCP Dropbear
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Posted - 2011.06.22 01:39:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Vikarion
Making ISK missioning in 0.0 wasn't risk-free by any means: I had to use a billion-ISK ship, I had to watch every gate and station undock for hostiles, and I had to carefully move every LP-store item back to high-sec and ammunition back out to Curse.
Considering how long every mission took, thanks to the gimped set-up an unprobe-able tengu requires, the added vulnerability to NPCs, and the constant danger, I could easily have made more ISK just missioning in hi-sec. I missioned in 0.0 because I liked the danger and challenge of making a profit in a hostile area.
I completely understand because I did the exact same thing, and for exactly the same reasons. I hope anyone reading this thread pays attention to what you're saying, and the fact I'm backing it up. Not all unprobeable ships were godlike ISK making machines. People need to realize that they had other uses, and their impact in some areas wasn't imbalancing, and in the grand scheme of things, positively affecting gameplay.
I'm talking about people like Vikarion who still put themselves on the line, and for a reward that could be gained in greater amounts for less risk elsewhere (i.e high sec level IVs). I was hoping someone other than me could point this out, to help prove that point that, hey, some people found other ways to use the tactic that were well within the spirit of EVE's principles.
It's a shame that era has passed, but at the same time, it's an instructive lesson about what can really motivate people to leave highsec and try out deeper waters. I completely agree with the eminent CCP Greyscale on the point that we should use what this has taught us, get some proper resources at our disposal, and put together more lasting, well-designed systems to encourage the sorts of good things that unprobables enabled (like getting people into lowsec and 0.0) rather than relying on an unintended mechanic, at best a bandaid solution, and one that has a negative influence in other areas.
It's also a wild-card that would need to be accounted for in all future designs of content, pvp, and so on...so it's not even just about what it breaks now, but what it can break in the future.
Anyways, I don't personally believe ninjaPvE in now impossible. It existed long before this tactic, and it will exist long after, I suspect. If there are less people exploring and earning LP because of this, then it will probably be even more lucrative a career in time, as well. There's plenty of silver lining to cash in on.
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.06.22 02:04:00 -
[109]
Excellent!! now virtue sets will rise in price again! they were kinda useless but now they are must have for every griefer in game.
as a carebear grinding in osmon, i thank CCP for this great change.
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Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.22 02:27:00 -
[110]
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Vikarion
Making ISK missioning in 0.0 wasn't risk-free by any means: I had to use a billion-ISK ship, I had to watch every gate and station undock for hostiles, and I had to carefully move every LP-store item back to high-sec and ammunition back out to Curse.
Considering how long every mission took, thanks to the gimped set-up an unprobe-able tengu requires, the added vulnerability to NPCs, and the constant danger, I could easily have made more ISK just missioning in hi-sec. I missioned in 0.0 because I liked the danger and challenge of making a profit in a hostile area.
I completely understand because I did the exact same thing, and for exactly the same reasons. I hope anyone reading this thread pays attention to what you're saying, and the fact I'm backing it up. Not all unprobeable ships were godlike ISK making machines. People need to realize that they had other uses, and their impact in some areas wasn't imbalancing, and in the grand scheme of things, positively affecting gameplay.
I'm talking about people like Vikarion who still put themselves on the line, and for a reward that could be gained in greater amounts for less risk elsewhere (i.e high sec level IVs). I was hoping someone other than me could point this out, to help prove that point that, hey, some people found other ways to use the tactic that were well within the spirit of EVE's principles.
It's a shame that era has passed, but at the same time, it's an instructive lesson about what can really motivate people to leave highsec and try out deeper waters. I completely agree with the eminent CCP Greyscale on the point that we should use what this has taught us, get some proper resources at our disposal, and put together more lasting, well-designed systems to encourage the sorts of good things that unprobables enabled (like getting people into lowsec and 0.0) rather than relying on an unintended mechanic, at best a bandaid solution, and one that has a negative influence in other areas.
It's also a wild-card that would need to be accounted for in all future designs of content, pvp, and so on...so it's not even just about what it breaks now, but what it can break in the future.
Anyways, I don't personally believe ninjaPvE in now impossible. It existed long before this tactic, and it will exist long after, I suspect. If there are less people exploring and earning LP because of this, then it will probably be even more lucrative a career in time, as well. There's plenty of silver lining to cash in on.
Have you guys thought about nerfing probing at all? As it stands you can probe these ex unprobable ships in less than two and a half minutes now. I think that since they deploy combat probes they are technically engaging in combat and shouldn't be permitted to cloak until they are recovered. Also probes should be target-able, and attack-able. If a probing ship has to warp elsewhere then all of the progress to their previous scan should be interrupted, and be forced to restart. This way they can't just cloak up and hide and relay information without engaging in a little bit of risk themselves.
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Azelor Delaria
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.06.22 03:17:00 -
[111]
So, pirates complain about T3s being unprobable. They figure that if they complain loud enough, CCP will listen and immediately they will get some juicy kills.
Of course, they might get a few in the first few days. After that, all those juicy Tengus and what-not suddenly disappear from their low-sec playground. They are left with crappy Drakes to kill.
But wait! Those Tengus are running L4 high sec missions! So maybe L4s need to be moved to low-sec too! Give it a year, CCP might just do it.
Then where do we see T3s? Oh, nothing but dusty trophies sitting in hangers. :)
***** ***** ***** *****
"No OPLAN ever survives first contact with the enemy." |
Vikarion
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
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Posted - 2011.06.22 03:18:00 -
[112]
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Originally by: Vikarion
Making ISK missioning in 0.0 wasn't risk-free by any means: I had to use a billion-ISK ship, I had to watch every gate and station undock for hostiles, and I had to carefully move every LP-store item back to high-sec and ammunition back out to Curse.
Considering how long every mission took, thanks to the gimped set-up an unprobe-able tengu requires, the added vulnerability to NPCs, and the constant danger, I could easily have made more ISK just missioning in hi-sec. I missioned in 0.0 because I liked the danger and challenge of making a profit in a hostile area.
I completely understand because I did the exact same thing, and for exactly the same reasons. I hope anyone reading this thread pays attention to what you're saying, and the fact I'm backing it up. Not all unprobeable ships were godlike ISK making machines. People need to realize that they had other uses, and their impact in some areas wasn't imbalancing, and in the grand scheme of things, positively affecting gameplay.
I'm talking about people like Vikarion who still put themselves on the line, and for a reward that could be gained in greater amounts for less risk elsewhere (i.e high sec level IVs). I was hoping someone other than me could point this out, to help prove that point that, hey, some people found other ways to use the tactic that were well within the spirit of EVE's principles.
It's a shame that era has passed, but at the same time, it's an instructive lesson about what can really motivate people to leave highsec and try out deeper waters. I completely agree with the eminent CCP Greyscale on the point that we should use what this has taught us, get some proper resources at our disposal, and put together more lasting, well-designed systems to encourage the sorts of good things that unprobables enabled (like getting people into lowsec and 0.0) rather than relying on an unintended mechanic, at best a bandaid solution, and one that has a negative influence in other areas.
It's also a wild-card that would need to be accounted for in all future designs of content, pvp, and so on...so it's not even just about what it breaks now, but what it can break in the future.
Anyways, I don't personally believe ninjaPvE in now impossible. It existed long before this tactic, and it will exist long after, I suspect. If there are less people exploring and earning LP because of this, then it will probably be even more lucrative a career in time, as well. There's plenty of silver lining to cash in on.
Thank you for responding to me personally. I'd felt rather hurt - silly perhaps, but still - because it felt like CCP had targeted what I'd enjoyed most. I do want to do PvE in hostile areas, but I also want it to be "fair". I used to simply use a raven, but people would probe me out in seconds and then sit in my mission spot for hours on end. Even when I tried to be sneaky...well, everyone has a probe alt.
It's not the lack of probing that's really the problem. The problem is that PvE in low-sec and 0.0 is nearly impossible for anything but large groups, unless one simply rats. I'm not asking for "solo content", just for a little more balance between the danger-seeking missioneer and the hordes of people trying to kill my non-PvP-fit ship.
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rumncock
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Posted - 2011.06.22 04:05:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Ranka Mei
And, praytell, what if indeed we do manage to adapt? Will you nerf that too?
ofcourse you tool, welcome to mmo's..
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.06.22 05:33:00 -
[114]
since some have already adapted I think CCP needs to nerf following things ASAP:
1. aligning to celestial and insta warping when hostiles appear. make it so you can't align in deadspace and it should take additional time to warp (agility when warping from deadspace = one of a freighter or something). also make it so when you click warp in a deadspace, the special, built-in, warp-preparation-only AB turns on so you have to accelerate even if you are already moving at maximum velocity.
2. make probes not appear on the direct scan since mission runners can detect them and warp out before pirates appear on site.
3. make a DS delay while in deadspace so that mission runners would not be able to detect incoming force too soon.
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Killer Zindi
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Posted - 2011.06.22 05:33:00 -
[115]
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43
Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.
Why?
Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.
My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.
So, you've changed your mind in less then a year?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1399721&page=1#11
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1353457&page=5#141
Read Avoid mission disruption
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Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2011.06.22 05:37:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Killer Zindi
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43
Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.
Why?
Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.
My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.
So, you've changed your mind in less then a year?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1399721&page=1#11
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1353457&page=5#141
Read Avoid mission disruption
when your job is on the table you can change opinion on anything in any time.
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Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.06.22 06:50:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Mnengli Noiliffe
Originally by: Killer Zindi
Originally by: CCP Dropbear
Edited by: CCP Dropbear on 20/06/2011 21:38:43
Both sides were looked at. In the end it came down to a simple principle. If you want to be impervious to scanning, use a cloak. If you are doing something that requires dropping cloak, you should be vulnerable to scanning whilst doing it.
Why?
Because a well-fit, unprobeable ship in the hands of a skilled pilot can reap rewards that are out of alignment with the risk involved in getting them, and this has crept into a lot of gameplay areas over time.
My suspicion: the type of people who put the research, time, funding and piloting skill into making unprobable tactics work for them (either militarily or economically) are the type who will find yet more ways to adapt.
So, you've changed your mind in less then a year?
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1399721&page=1#11
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1353457&page=5#141
Read Avoid mission disruption
when your job is on the table you can change opinion on anything in any time.
No job is worth rethinking your core ethics and fundamentals, he's just a sell out like everyone else is. Quite frankly I'd rather work at the dirtiest smelliest gas station scrubbing their toilet than to stomache all the god aweful changes they have made to this game, and look into the eyes of my boss and say yes sir. I would probably tell that boss to **** you and the horse you rode in on, and walk out. Hell I've done it in the past.
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Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.22 07:11:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Wardecced Alt
I sorta support this change , however won't this just mean more people going back to empire ? Place is crowded enough as is.
Ya this is a good point. Mybe in the next expation pack we can get some more Empire space to go around plz?
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.22 07:20:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Kamikaze jihawt
while we are on the subject of risk vs. reward.... where is the risk a covert ops ship is taking to probe down another ship? why isn't there risk? Why not make it so that when a covert ops ship launches combat probes they cannot cloak until the probes are recovered? Why is it that the mission runners in this game are always expected to have some sort of unrealistic, bloated goal of high risk to earn their isk, when the pvp'ers don't risk nearly the same amount to probe them down and gank them?
Shizzz you think thats crack pot thinking take a look at indy ships at least you have guns/missils. Not that it matters much.
Is it a rock? Point a Lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship? Point a Lazer at it and profit. I dont realy see any differnces here. |
lordlulzs
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Posted - 2011.06.22 07:37:00 -
[120]
all this really does is:
less people going into low sec areas == less targets == less pvp. Once again, ccp's attempt to increase pvp only breaks it further. goes to show you what they really care about and not what they tell you.
More ppl in high sec farming easier and safer pve content.
And better yet, more people buying PLEX.
The pattern of ccp's actions is quite easy to see.
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