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Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.22 19:26:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Haraldhardrade
Originally by: DHB WildCat
Please CCP, do not kill the snipers of EVE.
Wild
Well they killed solo roaming, they nerfed everything and buffed everything else. Dont you get it, this is an mmo, CCP wants you to abandon your cookie cutter tactics and train new stuff. Nothing wrong with that.
Compare the game before warp to zero, interdictors and so on, and you will see.
By abandoning cookie cutter and trying new stuff you mean abandoning unique, rarely used and yet highly effective techniques for fighing while massively outnumberd and instead just get in a ****ing drake and blob up like the rest of the incompetent pricks.
Eve is changing from
to
~~~
(ಠ_ృ)
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Haraldhardrade
Amarr Pax Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.22 20:01:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Frau Klaps
Eve is changing from
to
As I said, compare the game before warp to zero etc and now. To be mad about these new changes...well. Its a bit late. Caveo of Minmatar , torva vacuus regimen of deus es plurrimi periculosus of bestia
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.22 21:05:00 -
[93]
Indeed, the landslide began years ago.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Tea Ester Elliot
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Posted - 2011.06.22 21:07:00 -
[94]
!
/pours one out for ~elitepvp~
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evomad2
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Posted - 2011.06.22 21:18:00 -
[95]
Wouldn't warping your sniper ships in at less than 150km from the close range gang you are fighting be the easy solution to this? If you're dropping out of warp within minimum warp distance, say 125km, then probing aint gonna help em.
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DHB WildCat
Bite me inc. Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.22 21:25:00 -
[96]
Originally by: evomad2 Wouldn't warping your sniper ships in at less than 150km from the close range gang you are fighting be the easy solution to this? If you're dropping out of warp within minimum warp distance, say 125km, then probing aint gonna help em.
Ill pretend this is an honest question.
The way it works is that when you land on grid the covops in the nearby safe will have cloaked dictors with it. So what they do is say "uncloak, gang warping now." Dictors warp less than 1 au to target drop bublle and then the rest of the gang come onto them or they can even burn into range by then. I think the real problem is probing.
Wild
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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.22 21:26:00 -
[97]
nerf is fine , scan mechanic is not
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Isotaan Ephraim
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Posted - 2011.06.22 22:08:00 -
[98]
@ DHB and SATAN:
Sniping has been almost dead for over a year, and has been steadily dying (this change being the last nail in the coffin).
You merely found a tiny niche that already had plenty of counters that hadn't become general knowledge yet. It was only a matter of time until groups discovered how properly flown ceptors/drams, probes + painters, and secure communications could do a lot of damage to "unprobable" snipe BS.
I think you guys will merely go back to the drawing board and come up with new tactics, which I look forward to hearing about soon.
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DHB WildCat
Bite me inc. Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.22 23:04:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Isotaan Ephraim @ DHB and SATAN:
Sniping has been almost dead for over a year, and has been steadily dying (this change being the last nail in the coffin).
You merely found a tiny niche that already had plenty of counters that hadn't become general knowledge yet. It was only a matter of time until groups discovered how properly flown ceptors/drams, probes + painters, and secure communications could do a lot of damage to "unprobable" snipe BS.
I think you guys will merely go back to the drawing board and come up with new tactics, which I look forward to hearing about soon.
You know its funny how you named several counters to us, but the mental capacity of eve players is less than optimal, so instead of thinking they whine nerf!
Anf CCP gives the masses what they want.... sigh. Anyways I am irritated they nerf us at every turn, but in all reality I really do believe probing is broked / op, and needs to be looked at.
But yeah back to the drawing board..... again.
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Aionez
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Posted - 2011.06.22 23:05:00 -
[100]
Died a couple of times to the BE tactics but i must agree on this one.
CCP completely destroyed a valid tactic and sacrificed it to blob warfare
I hate what BE and the likes like WEPRA and Brick do but there is no denying that it was a very effective way to counter the blob and force players to actually use their brain
CCP either bring back snipers or put a 30 - 40 probing delay on
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Isotaan Ephraim
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Posted - 2011.06.22 23:35:00 -
[101]
Originally by: DHB WildCat
Originally by: Isotaan Ephraim @ DHB and SATAN:
Sniping has been almost dead for over a year, and has been steadily dying (this change being the last nail in the coffin).
You merely found a tiny niche that already had plenty of counters that hadn't become general knowledge yet. It was only a matter of time until groups discovered how properly flown ceptors/drams, probes + painters, and secure communications could do a lot of damage to "unprobable" snipe BS.
I think you guys will merely go back to the drawing board and come up with new tactics, which I look forward to hearing about soon.
You know its funny how you named several counters to us, but the mental capacity of eve players is less than optimal, so instead of thinking they whine nerf!
Anf CCP gives the masses what they want.... sigh. Anyways I am irritated they nerf us at every turn, but in all reality I really do believe probing is broked / op, and needs to be looked at.
But yeah back to the drawing board..... again.
The whines were mostly aimed at the unprobeable mission runners. In the grand scheme of things, snipe BS aren't that common or important to warrant separate consideration. Oh well. Such is Eve. |
Seishi Maru
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2011.06.22 23:57:00 -
[102]
Simplest solution would be to make probes have a MINIMUM range of 300km to give a warp in.. SIMPLE.
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DHB WildCat
Bite me inc. Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.23 00:13:00 -
[103]
Okay so heres an idea I have based on some other guys input as well.
Dont nerf unprobability or, increase combat scan probe time to 1 min on ships.
Instead make all missions probable like plexes with core scanner probes. This way you do not affect the pvp'ers but are still able to stop invulnerable mission running bots.
thoughts?
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E
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Posted - 2011.06.23 00:25:00 -
[104]
Originally by: DHB WildCat Instead make all missions probable like plexes with core scanner probes. This way you do not affect the pvp'ers but are still able to stop invulnerable mission running bots.
And practically remove mission running from everywhere but hisec? No, definitely the absolute wrong direction.
On that note, mission runners being unprobable is annoying. Gang boosters being unprobable and still contributing to pvp combat in a major way is a game balance problem.
That said, have you actually tried to probe an 'unprobable' t3 in game after the change? I havent tried it myself yet, but I've heard from people that did try it on their booster alts that apparently an average- to well-skilled prober does not cut it, you need a pretty much perfect skilled and equipped dedicated char/ship.
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Frau Klaps
Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.23 00:36:00 -
[105]
Originally by: DHB WildCat Okay so heres an idea I have based on some other guys input as well.
Dont nerf unprobability or, increase combat scan probe time to 1 min on ships.
Instead make all missions probable like plexes with core scanner probes. This way you do not affect the pvp'ers but are still able to stop invulnerable mission running bots.
thoughts?
Something like this, as well as removing boosting from off-grid links would be a step in the right direction. ~~~
(ಠ_ృ)
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Pyrrhic Corruption
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Posted - 2011.06.23 01:35:00 -
[106]
Did a little informal testing with several low-sec T3 booster fits (Tengu, Legion, & Loki). The probe character had CovOps 5 and all the Astrometric skills at 5.
Best I did against any of these four link T3s was in the mid-60s. Using from 4 to 8 probes, setup in a variant of configurations, probes set to 0.5 AU range. I tried a variant of probe deployments, from the standard layout to setting all eight probes literally on top of the T3.
So it would seem that at least a partial implant set would be necessary to catch four link low-sec fits, if not a full virtue set.
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Scorpii Zenith
Minmatar Ancient Heat
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Posted - 2011.06.23 06:03:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Jerry Pepridge TL:DR, so ill take a stab:
ITT: Butthurt nerd that makes isk using unprobable tengus in 0.0
THis
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.23 06:25:00 -
[108]
Originally by: DHB WildCat You know its funny how you named several counters to us, but the mental capacity of eve players is less than optimal, so instead of thinking they whine nerf!
Hey, aren't you whining nerf! instead of thinking of a new strategy?
How quaint ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Strider Hiryu
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.23 10:54:00 -
[109]
From the patch notes, "It is no longer possible to set up a ship to be impervious to scanning while uncloaked". Can some smart kid do the maths on this? The statement says impossible, but surely this is not true. There must be some ratio of Sensor strength to Sig radius at which point you are unprobable. Ideas? Thoughts? I like beer and cheese... |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.06.23 12:28:00 -
[110]
I just saw this post - DHB really wanna snipe with his machariel and not get caught I guess ^^
That said I agree being able to probe someone and tackle them in less than 10 seconds is a bit too much. But also being able to snipe people and warp out when you get in trouble is even more cheesy.
IMO people engaging others should need a 10-15 second cooldown before being able to initiate warp...
Pinky -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
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Spartan dax
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:14:00 -
[111]
I did some playing around with the new probing mechanics on some old unprobable stuff. Character has pretty much lvl 4 skills so nothing special. Anyway, getting 100% hits with 4 probes was not possible. I needed to drop 8 probes to get those last percentages to get a warp to. Hence my suggestion.
Increase scan time with the number of probes. Specialized gangs should take longer to probe down, even on a prepared battlefield. Should even be easy for ccp to implement.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2011.06.23 14:59:00 -
[112]
If you are fighting on your opponents battlefield with prepositioned probes, i see no reason why they shouldnt be able to get warpable hit on you really fast. If prober is able to time the scan right to the moment when you land on grid - even better. Tactical combat scanning working as intended. ESPECIALLY when we are talking about probing BATTLESHIP class ships.
That you paid "billions of isk" for implants, gangboosters, ships etc. is by no means reason to be untouchable by probes - how it used to be before fix.
I agree that probing mechanics isnt optimal atm, but its definitely better than broken mechanics that allowed unprobeable ships. It could use some adjustment, but definitely no loltastic 30 seconds to probe down battleship hulls when you are well prepared for them with probes out.
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Pyrrhic Corruption
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Posted - 2011.06.23 16:48:00 -
[113]
Originally by: Spartan dax I did some playing around with the new probing mechanics on some old unprobable stuff. Character has pretty much lvl 4 skills so nothing special. Anyway, getting 100% hits with 4 probes was not possible. I needed to drop 8 probes to get those last percentages to get a warp to. Hence my suggestion.
Increase scan time with the number of probes. Specialized gangs should take longer to probe down, even on a prepared battlefield. Should even be easy for ccp to implement.
I'm curious, what was the Sig Radius and Sensor Strength ratio for your target?
The ships I tested were...
Loki - 136.3 / 103 = 1.3233 Tengu - 140.7 / 118 = 1.1923 Legion - 154.8 / 111 = 1.3945
Since they were all quad linker low-sec fits, I can easily reduce them to triple link setups with an extra low and mid ECCM module.
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KLizMaN
Warriors Lost
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Posted - 2011.06.24 04:44:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Pinky Denmark I just saw this post - DHB really wanna snipe with his machariel and not get caught I guess ^^
That said I agree being able to probe someone and tackle them in less than 10 seconds is a bit too much. But also being able to snipe people and warp out when you get in trouble is even more cheesy.
...and sitting on a gate with 60 in your gang to take out 10 isn't cheesy? Sniping is a valid tactic and is one of the only remaining ones for fighting outnumbered - this is not only important for smaller alliances/corps but also people that usually fight outnumbered based on their timezone (read: aussies) Yes it can be a frustrating tactic to counter, but that doesn't make it an invalid tactic.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.06.24 04:48:00 -
[115]
Has anyone confirmed that this is indeed dead and not just another Chicken Wildcat thread?
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Ashina Sito
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.06.24 08:05:00 -
[116]
Originally by: DHB WildCat
The way it works is that when you land on grid the covops in the nearby safe will have cloaked dictors with it. So what they do is say "uncloak, gang warping now." Dictors warp less than 1 au to target drop bublle and then the rest of the gang come onto them or they can even burn into range by then. I think the real problem is probing.
Wild
Been a while since I have been allowed to fly a BS so, Why not fit a Smart bomb and blow up the Probe?
Also, all you have to do is warp, Land, lock, align, fire, warp out. Done.
Have you tested the probe skills/equipment needed to probe your set ups? How likely is someone to have one of those skilled/equipped pilots on hand. If they need 2 billion in implants to get a hit then I don't see where there is a problem at all, cost comparison wise.
Or is the real complaint that YOU have to work harder to get kills instead of everyone else working hard to kill you?
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.06.24 10:57:00 -
[117]
I agree with the OP's concerns, but not with any of his solutions.
I think that a much better way to go about unprobable ships would be:
* Make a module which makes you unprobable. Preferably through changing your sig/sensor strength, not just "unprobable if fitted". This module should incur heavy penalties on your tank - so much that it's not viable for running PvE content of any description. However sniper ships could get away with it, as long as they avoid getting hit.
* Make active warfare links make you easier to probe, to the point that it's impossible to run even one and be unprobable. I'm not entirely certain if they should increase your sig or lower your sensor strength; as both stats have other uses unrelated to probing. Maybe introduce another factor in the probing mechanic? ---
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Swynet
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.24 11:18:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash I agree with the OP's concerns, but not with any of his solutions.
I think that a much better way to go about unprobable ships would be:
* Make a module which makes you unprobable. Preferably through changing your sig/sensor strength, not just "unprobable if fitted". This module should incur heavy penalties on your tank - so much that it's not viable for running PvE content of any description. However sniper ships could get away with it, as long as they avoid getting hit.
* Make active warfare links make you easier to probe, to the point that it's impossible to run even one and be unprobable. I'm not entirely certain if they should increase your sig or lower your sensor strength; as both stats have other uses unrelated to probing. Maybe introduce another factor in the probing mechanic?
For the first problem, this reinforce blobs, so bring bigger blobs, lets blob together... blob is verb now.
For the prober, no ship should be able to use offensive tactics without having penalties or be completely invulnerable. Cloaked prober's ARE invulnerable
Not asking to change cloaking, but you shouldn't be able to use your probes while you're cloaked and that must change.
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Lyrrashae
Minmatar Crushed Ambitions
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Posted - 2011.06.29 09:14:00 -
[119]
Originally by: DELTA9ONLINE2 CCP has been POOPING on senior players for years and tbh, they really DON"T care. This is just yet another example of it and how many players have spent time to train skills for tengu or unprobable cerbs or what ever. It started for me when they nerfed the rapier...(My Personal Fave PVP Ship) with along with the other recons and many other ships. Re-inventing the game with every patch has gotten old. They NEVER have met their patch times they quote us...EVER!!! and always requires atleast one, if not more immediate updates after a patch. Yes..It is kinda crappy that tons of isk were spent by many players in many different aspects to be unprobable. They may not be whining about the fact they cant Mission any more and be unprobable. How about all the time and isk spent on yet another good screwing by CCP.... I have been playing the game less and less over the past several months, Mainly because of CCP and their lack of respect for the senior players. THEY ARE WHO MADE THIS GAME GREAT!!! AND MADE CCP LOTS OF MONEY!!! not the carebears.... This is not the first time players that have spent time or isk like this on whatever..be it tengu or sniper training, pvp or pve, I'm truly tired of CCP killing the game. Basically at this point the game to me is nothing more than a $15 a month chat box like MSN to talk to my friends that I have met throughout the years. And since 2006, Ive only seen it getting worse... Good Job CCP.... I hope everyone can afford to buy a playstation 3 or else we wont be able to play dust either. I repeat....the senior players are who made this game last this long....WE ARE TIRED OF GETTING SCREWED WITH EVERY PATCH!!!!
You do realise that whilst it is no longer possible to be un-probable, the same previously un-scannable fit will still make it incredibly difficult to probe down?
As in:
A) Max'ed skills (At least a few months of training) B) Virtue set (very, very expensive--even more so than the looks-like-sculpted-anus monocle!--even if you can find the whole set) + top-end hardwirings (ditto) required C) And probably a little bit of luck, too?
In other words, any half-awake/halfway competent pilot who is refreshing d-scan every 90 seconds, maximum with even one neut in local, and spamming the eff out of it every time local goes up, aligning out/fighting aligned as much as possible, all the while managing the PvE combat? So a stray tackler-NPC doesn't suddenly make your day go all pear-shaped, and make everything else academic, dontchaknow) should still be just fine, and practically speaking, not much has changed for him, because that pilot would probably be doing all these things, by habit, anyway. Humans are like that...
In other words, suck it up!
Oh, and: I can haz ur stuffs?
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente NME1
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Posted - 2011.06.29 19:06:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 29/06/2011 19:06:11
Originally by: Frau Klaps What DHB probably ought to have mentioned is that BE use these tactics to whittle away at large fleets and there is nothing to stop the opposition having probes out ready on the gate or celestial they are at...
Then warp to 140km from the enemy fleet instead of 200km.
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