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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 15 post(s)
Fighter26 Orion's Fist	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:55:00 - [121] Edited by: Fighter26 on 24/06/2011 07:57:09 Edited by: Fighter26 on 24/06/2011 07:56:48 Originally by: Space Wanderer Frankly, I find most of the replies in this thread disgusting. When apochrypha came out there were many threads out there trying to find out the ins and outs of probing. The usual quota of "it's too hard!" (sic! ) was there but most of the people were trying to understand the new mechanics and it was a really fun discussion. What do I see now? A single thread full of self-styled "explorers", some of them not even knowing the basics of the old scan formula, and crying to be spoonfed. In the middle of that, few voices that actually try to exchange information, drowned in the noise of people shouting "gimmegimmegimme". I am seriously tempted to not write down the formula even if I mamage to derive it. But after all I am pretty sure that most of those who didn't bother to learn the previous the previous formula will bother even less with the new one (it's more complex) so it's probably not an issue. Still CCP, I agree with those who say that this is your fault. You spoonfeed people, and then you are surprised when they shout "gimme" at every occasion? Spoonfed? A simple patch notes statement: "Scan probe formula has changed." is sufficient. You know- on the patch notes which were released 10 hours before update extended downtime? Hell, it would have been nice to discuss the changes with the community and see what they want. I will not try to sell you the idea that players should have a say in game development, clearly you do not believe that. However, noting a critical game mechanic has been messed with which affects a huge portion of game play is sort of important to at least note in a game change log (patch notes.) edit: GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE deal with it. -
Sri Nova	Posted - 2011.06.24 07:57:00 - [122] Originally by: CCP Veritas All the old ideas are still correct - get probes out, surround your target with them, narrow in from there. Just use more than four probes cause probe 5 and above help now. That the formula pumping the numbers changed doesn't mean the guiding principals changed. have not done enough experimenting but i have noticed some wonkiness to the scanning system . i scan down drones every now and then and while some times i can have hard time finding a certin set . i have never had a result just disapear less some one packed em up . after the new patch im getting results that will just disappear after i drop to the next au . i had a set of 5 mining drones II at 8au all nice and centered droped down to 4 au and poof they were gone ... checked the directional it said they was still there . fiddled around up down eliminate the chance of possible echo gone no longer showing up in the probes . so i went back to 16 au and and i was locking in on the same blob of drones wrote down the scan result number just so i could keep track of it case it was a false positive or something . got back down to 4 au again and poof there were gone . to sum it all up it an hour of fiddling and narrowing down the drones location via directional and guessing at 2 au intervals until i got a yellow result which then was finally able to get to 100% . odd thing was that there location was with in the center of that 4au probe setup i had. scanned down 20 more or so drones with out to much hassle after . only time i have ever seen that happen is when was a ship packs up its drones . this was not the case cause after my third attempt i scanned for ships to make sure one was not there causing the phenomena. music the paint dance floor the canvas your body the brush
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:10:00 - [123] Originally by: Fighter26 However, noting a critical game mechanic has been messed with which affects a huge portion of game play is sort of important to at least note in a game change log (patch notes.) I won't dispute that. Still, the fact that the change had happened should have been apparent to any self-respecting explorer after reading the patch note about the number of probes. What is more, most people in this thread are crucifying CCP veritas for not releasing the details of the scanning formula.
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:18:00 - [124] My problem is A) There was no warning B) What was said about more probes = better results has shown to not be the case. BTW for the one talking about the "pattern" Even before the change it was good to have a probe on top and on bottom because the system is based on which probes are closet to the target. The new system in my opinion is NO different it is just the strength of the probes is reduced. Hidden under "Just use more probes" which they assume most people are doing. I have shown that adding more probes does NOT increase strength if that was the case it would have increased the percentage by a large amount.
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:21:00 - [125] Edited by: Zachstar on 24/06/2011 08:21:39 Originally by: Space Wanderer Originally by: Fighter26 However, noting a critical game mechanic has been messed with which affects a huge portion of game play is sort of important to at least note in a game change log (patch notes.) I won't dispute that. Still, the fact that the change had happened should have been apparent to any self-respecting explorer after reading the patch note about the number of probes. What is more, most people in this thread are crucifying CCP veritas for not releasing the details of the scanning formula. My disagreement with CCP veritas is mainly due to the attitude he has shown in this topic in my opinion. And that what he has said about more probes = better scan result I have shown not to be true. I don't expect to be spoonfed but I do expect what gets said to be true.
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:21:00 - [126] Slap in the face? SLAP IN THE FACE? Where did all these WoWtards come from? I thought I'd escaped that nonsense four years ago CCP Veritas is showing the appropriate amount of respect to people in this thread. Whiny ***y customers may be customers, but whiny *y people can talk to the hand. Probing has changed, the sensible players are trying to figure out how. The whiny **y WoWtards are talking about "slap in the face" and "where's the step by step guide". Probing was far too easy* before the patch. [ Australian players join channel ANZAC ]
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:30:00 - [127] Originally by: Mara Rinn Slap in the face? SLAP IN THE FACE? Where did all these WoWtards come from? I thought I'd escaped that nonsense four years ago CCP Veritas is showing the appropriate amount of respect to people in this thread. Whiny ***y customers may be customers, but whiny *y people can talk to the hand. Probing has changed, the sensible players are trying to figure out how. The whiny **y WoWtards are talking about "slap in the face" and "where's the step by step guide". Probing was far too easy* before the patch. Except they are not saying they reduced scan strength they are saying just use more probes which I have shown to have no effect. If it was a reduction they need to explain why like they normally do because it affects an entire line of industries. EvE isnt WoW check the butterfly effect trailer to know why.
JimmyThePimp Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.06.24 08:54:00 - [128] christ allimighty, will you people calm the ** down. for anyone that knows sig sizes, scale it down by 1. for anyone that doesnt, bloody well learn allready. if you knew how to scan before you still know how to scan now, nothing is different! if you blindly stumble around with 7 probes at max ranges then your a ing idiot and should let someone else scan for you. finding sites / wh's is exactly the same, just scale the size. finding ships is (guess what) exactly the same. the only change is at larger scanning ranges, and if your combat scanning a ship at over 1au range then for s sake get back in a rifter and eve academy or red v blue cause you dont know what your doing and someone will teach you. theres nothing more irritating than sitting cloaked off the side of your pos, watching you spend 2 ing hours scanning down the only wh in your system because you dont know what your doing. if you cant probe, stay out of wh's, i want to kill people not stare at pos shields. debate over, get off the forums and into the game to practice probing. now you **ing muppet.
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:11:00 - [129] Yet the "change" was to use more probes yet I have shown more probes to have no effect. To be frank you are acting like this topic is similar to the CCP apology thread above. This is of course a smaller issue compared to that leak. Yet it was said to use more probes to get a result. I put out more probes and moved them yet result remains the same. Having 5-7 probes over the 4 ought to automatically give more no? It is nothing about being easy mode I just want a straight answer.

CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:30:00 - [130] Originally by: Zachstar Oh By the way I tried your "You can use more probes now" thing. Located a site to be found with 4 got to 3.2 percent launched a 5th and guess what? still 3.2 percent. IF what you said was correct that 5th probe ought to have given more towards the percent no? Care to explain? Edit2: Just tried with 7 and guess what? Three Point Two Percent Could you post screen shots of your probe placement please? It would help me to explain.


CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:37:00 - [131] Originally by: Fighter26 Spoonfed? A simple patch notes statement: "Scan probe formula has changed." is sufficient. FWIW, I agree with you completely. Somewhere along the line that statement got changed and I'm deeply sorry that I did not notice it sooner.

Rage Spear Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:37:00 - [132] hehe, this is actually pretty funny: CCP tries as hard as possible to attract a different kind of customer by dumbing down sections of the game (probing being a very good example, how many of you remember how insanely hard and dull probing used to be?) New players get used to the easy way where everything is given to you on a plate. CCP make a change in the way they always have: by not bothering to mention it and certainly not spelling out the changes in detail (whether through laziness, incompetence or design is another matter). New whiny, entitled players (you know, the ones they specifically targeted and wanted to recruit) cry and ***** and moan. CCP have never explained the detailed numbers behind the game: missile damage, gun tracking, exploration etc. All those guides you use instead of thinking for yourselves were written by other players...if you can't figure it out just wait and maybe someone cleverer than you will write it down and let you read it. or maybe not
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:39:00 - [133] Originally by: CCP Veritas Originally by: Zachstar Oh By the way I tried your "You can use more probes now" thing. Located a site to be found with 4 got to 3.2 percent launched a 5th and guess what? still 3.2 percent. IF what you said was correct that 5th probe ought to have given more towards the percent no? Care to explain? Edit2: Just tried with 7 and guess what? Three Point Two Percent Could you post screen shots of your probe placement please? It would help me to explain. I was directly testing your more probes = better deal. So I had 4 probes at 32au around an area of interest. Afterwards I moved probes virtually right on to the others to minimize any effect distance had of effect. Even tho the probes were at the same distance there was no increase in scan strength. Before y'all call me a noob I know you are supposed to move the extra probes into top, bottom and sides but you could do that before because it only showed best result. I was testing the mere idea that more probes = better which I found not to be the case. What I am suspecting is a reduction in scan strength being coupled with encouragement to use more probes which works like the old system which I find at best silly.
MisterAl tt1	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:45:00 - [134] Originally by: CCP Veritas Could you post screen shots of your probe placement please? It would help me to explain. My screenshots with 4 and 8 probes giving the same are on the 1st page of the topic. The case is it "works" only when all the probes and the sig is on the same horyzon. Well... Looks like I write it the third time. Surprised you didn't see it. Anyway, thank you for cooperation. _________________________ Dynamic WH map for everyone!

CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:50:00 - [135] Originally by: MisterAl tt1 Originally by: CCP Veritas Could you post screen shots of your probe placement please? It would help me to explain. My screenshots with 4 and 8 probes giving the same are on the 1st page of the topic. The case is it "works" only when all the probes and the sig is on the same horyzon. Well... Looks like I write it the third time. Surprised you didn't see it. Anyway, thank you for cooperation. I did see yours MisterAl - I don't need anything more from you to look at it. I'll be back once I've made certain what I think is going on is what's going on.

Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:53:00 - [136] Or http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5577/scanerror.jpg Taken in a covops with sisters probes if that has any effect.
Rek Seven Gallente Zandathorn Industries	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:55:00 - [137] Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 09:56:07 CCP Veritas, I'm just annoyed that my abilities have been lowered. I don't remember the exploration tutorial saying only 4 probes count so i trained up so i could use 7 and i used 7 probes to pin a sig down even before the patch. If i understand what has bee said in this thread correctly, i now have to train for 8 probes to give me the same scan strength that i previously had. Do you think this is fair considering that i have remapped away from scanning related skills?
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:55:00 - [138] Originally by: CCP Veritas Originally by: MisterAl tt1 Originally by: CCP Veritas Could you post screen shots of your probe placement please? It would help me to explain. My screenshots with 4 and 8 probes giving the same are on the 1st page of the topic. The case is it "works" only when all the probes and the sig is on the same horyzon. Well... Looks like I write it the third time. Surprised you didn't see it. Anyway, thank you for cooperation. I did see yours MisterAl - I don't need anything more from you to look at it. I'll be back once I've made certain what I think is going on is what's going on. I was just thinking could this be related to the massive issues with drones and missiles that required repackaging and refitting to work? If that is the case I will try this again and take back my statements.
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:58:00 - [139] Originally by: Rek Seven CCP Veritas, I'm just annoyed that my abilities have be lowered. I don't remember the exploration tutorial saying only 4 probes could so i trained up so i could use 7 and used 7 probes to pin a sig down even before the patch. If i understand what has bee said in this thread correctly, i now have to train for 8 probes to give me the same scan strength that i previously had. Do you think this is fair considering that i have remapped away from scanning related skills? Let's wait for him to come back. If this is related to the Drone bug it may not be as bad as it looks.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:58:00 - [140] Edited by: Skippermonkey on 24/06/2011 09:58:43 Originally by: Zachstar ~image~ Taken in a covops with sisters probes if that has any effect. OMFG - dropping probes on top of each other at the same scan range and expecting a better hit on a signature? Wow... just wow - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EVE: TESTING GROUNDS FOR WoD & DUST SINCE 2011
Rek Seven Gallente Zandathorn Industries	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:58:00 - [141] Originally by: Rage Spear hehe, this is actually pretty funny: CCP tries as hard as possible to attract a different kind of customer by dumbing down sections of the game (probing being a very good example, how many of you remember how insanely hard and dull probing used to be?) New players get used to the easy way where everything is given to you on a plate. CCP make a change in the way they always have: by not bothering to mention it and certainly not spelling out the changes in detail (whether through laziness, incompetence or design is another matter). New whiny, entitled players (you know, the ones they specifically targeted and wanted to recruit) cry and ***** and moan. CCP have never explained the detailed numbers behind the game: missile damage, gun tracking, exploration etc. All those guides you use instead of thinking for yourselves were written by other players...if you can't figure it out just wait and maybe someone cleverer than you will write it down and let you read it. or maybe not I don't get this whole "dumbing down" talk. Was it dumbing down when we went from horse and carriage to the automobile?

CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 09:59:00 - [142] Originally by: Zachstar I was directly testing your more probes = better deal. So I had 4 probes at 32au around an area of interest. Afterwards I moved probes virtually right on to the others to minimize any effect distance had of effect. Even tho the probes were at the same distance there was no increase in scan strength. Before y'all call me a noob I know you are supposed to move the extra probes into top, bottom and sides but you could do that before because it only showed best result. I was testing the mere idea that more probes = better which I found not to be the case. What I am suspecting is a reduction in scan strength being coupled with encouragement to use more probes which works like the old system which I find at best silly. So you had multiple probes in the same (rough) position? Indeed, repeats like that aren't going to help. Another way of wording my point about 8 probes is that the previous system would take the best 4 (kinda...it was a little bad about that choice actually), while the new system will use information from all 8. If the information from some of them is redundant, then they may as well not be there, but if there's any additional information from them at all, then they will help, all the way up to the last one.

Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:02:00 - [143] Originally by: Skippermonkey Edited by: Skippermonkey on 24/06/2011 09:58:43 Originally by: Zachstar ~image~ Taken in a covops with sisters probes if that has any effect. OMFG - dropping probes on top of each other at the same scan range and expecting a better hit on a signature? Wow... just wow The new system is supposed to be more probes = better strength. Again if I had moved the probes to a different position that would be ruining the test because it would be like the old system of best 4. Also check the images on the first page. he had them CLOSER than I for no effect.

CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:04:00 - [144] Originally by: Rek Seven Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 09:56:07 CCP Veritas, I'm just annoyed that my abilities have been lowered. I don't remember the exploration tutorial saying only 4 probes count so i trained up so i could use 7 and i used 7 probes to pin a sig down even before the patch. If i understand what has bee said in this thread correctly, i now have to train for 8 probes to give me the same scan strength that i previously had. Do you think this is fair considering that i have remapped away from scanning related skills? Before the patch, scanning results were based on the best 4 hits for any given target. When tracking down something in particular, having 4 out in a good configuration was the best you could do. Now the best you can do is having 8 out in a good configuration. It's balanced roughly so that 6-or-so is about the same as 4 used to be. So...assuming you set your 7 up to give good coverage of the target, you'll probably be getting better results than you used to. Training up so you can launch 8 would make them even better.

Space Wanderer	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:04:00 - [145] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 24/06/2011 10:04:40 Originally by: CCP Veritas Another way of wording my point about 8 probes is that the previous system would take the best 4 (kinda...it was a little bad about that choice actually), Eheh, I know. I remember when I found out the choice algorithm, how I managed to force the algorithm to choose non-optimal probes. Since then, only four probes for me. Glad to know that now it makes sense to have astrometrics at 5.
Skippermonkey Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:06:00 - [146] tbh, i dont even know why they changed scanning, it was runnign farily well as it was. All they've done is nerf the scan res of each probe or something and turned it into an even more clickfest. GIVE US PROBE FORMATIONS AND ILL FORGIVE YOU CCP - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EVE: TESTING GROUNDS FOR WoD & DUST SINCE 2011
Zachstar	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:09:00 - [147] Originally by: CCP Veritas Originally by: Rek Seven Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 09:56:07 CCP Veritas, I'm just annoyed that my abilities have been lowered. I don't remember the exploration tutorial saying only 4 probes count so i trained up so i could use 7 and i used 7 probes to pin a sig down even before the patch. If i understand what has bee said in this thread correctly, i now have to train for 8 probes to give me the same scan strength that i previously had. Do you think this is fair considering that i have remapped away from scanning related skills? Before the patch, scanning results were based on the best 4 hits for any given target. When tracking down something in particular, having 4 out in a good configuration was the best you could do. Now the best you can do is having 8 out in a good configuration. It's balanced roughly so that 6-or-so is about the same as 4 used to be. So...assuming you set your 7 up to give good coverage of the target, you'll probably be getting better results than you used to. Training up so you can launch 8 would make them even better. Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25
Rek Seven Gallente Zandathorn Industries	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:11:00 - [148] Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 10:12:35 Originally by: CCP Veritas Originally by: Rek Seven Edited by: Rek Seven on 24/06/2011 09:56:07 CCP Veritas, I'm just annoyed that my abilities have been lowered. I don't remember the exploration tutorial saying only 4 probes count so i trained up so i could use 7 and i used 7 probes to pin a sig down even before the patch. If i understand what has bee said in this thread correctly, i now have to train for 8 probes to give me the same scan strength that i previously had. Do you think this is fair considering that i have remapped away from scanning related skills? Before the patch, scanning results were based on the best 4 hits for any given target. When tracking down something in particular, having 4 out in a good configuration was the best you could do. Now the best you can do is having 8 out in a good configuration. It's balanced roughly so that 6-or-so is about the same as 4 used to be. So...assuming you set your 7 up to give good coverage of the target, you'll probably be getting better results than you used to. Training up so you can launch 8 would make them even better. Well unforgettably 7 probes seem to be slightly weaker than the old 4. Perhaps i'm positioning them wrong. I have one in the middle, one in the north, east, south,west position and one on the top and bottom... these are all positioned around the center probe and the center probe is positioned on the sig.

CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:11:00 - [149] Originally by: Skippermonkey tbh, i dont even know why they changed scanning, it was runnign farily well as it was. I suppose I can let that reason be known. I'm a performance guy; I fix lag. My interest in changing scanning is purely because it needed to be changed for technical reasons. The old algorithm was horrifically inefficient at scale. There was no way I could fix the scaling without changing the behavior of it, so I wrote them ground-up to be scalable while keeping the original design goals intact.


CCP Veritas	Posted - 2011.06.24 10:13:00 - [150] Originally by: Zachstar Once you get that working may I request a feature then? Have you noticed Veritas that it is becoming even more of a clickfest? Is there a way you can make it where all probes can close in or widen on themselves by some key combo? Such as how shift click moves all in direction I request them to move in as this becomes quite the issue when dealing with the tiny tiny spaces after 0.25 Team BFF did that in one of their recent releases. Control-drag will change your world man.


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