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Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
100
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Posted - 2012.09.14 10:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Change armor HP extending modules (like plates) so that they do not affect the ship's speed or agility. Change active/passive armor tanking rigs so that they don't affect the ship's speed.
Now everybody loves armor tanking even if reps come at the end of the cycle, even if armor tanking has less even resistance profiles after fitting, or whatever.
That's the one and only difference between shield and armor tanking. Armor tankers are generally sloooooooooooow, shield tankers are fast.
Kiting ships are shield tankers. Flavor of the month fits are shield tankers. Nano ships that defined an era were shield tanked. Now there's a module type so powerful that multiple iterations were forbidden in the last AT, and of course it's for shield tanking.
As explained by some other user (Liang, I think), when a Myrmidon does better in ASB configuration than with double or triple armor repper fit, there's something VERY wrong with the current state of things.
I, for one, have seen many a shield tank Myrmidon, Brutix, Deimos, Thorax, Ishtar, Talos (LOL), Harbinger...
Never saw a ship with shield tanking bonus (or, for that, a traditional shield tanked ship even without bonus to shield tanking) in armor configuration. At least, I can't remember any examples, other than fitting a damned plate in a Falcon so it cannot be one-shot without wasting a mid.
Shield tanking seems to be the way to go, for both active and passive fits, unless in very particular fleet compositions. When in doubt, put an oversized extender or ASB and a T2 Invul, and there yo go. Your ship is tanked and fast as HELL. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
495
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
Darius Brinn wrote:Change armor HP extending modules (like plates) so that they do not affect the ship's speed or agility. Change active/passive armor tanking rigs so that they don't affect the ship's speed.
so this.
Armor tanks are always always ALWAYS going to be behind shield tanks while armor tanks mobility is hurt with rigs and plate mass.
Its space and this is a game, so dont bother with saying "its logical that more armor slows you down" because you are correct, but for balance sake its sucky
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Maeltstome
Caldari Deep Space Ventures Intrepid Crossing
70
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:37:00 -
[33] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Darius Brinn wrote:Change armor HP extending modules (like plates) so that they do not affect the ship's speed or agility. Change active/passive armor tanking rigs so that they don't affect the ship's speed.
so this. Armor tanks are always always ALWAYS going to be behind shield tanks while armor tanks mobility is hurt with rigs and plate mass. Its space and this is a game, so dont bother with saying "its logical that more armor slows you down" because you are correct, but for balance sake its sucky
Initially i went "pfft, terrible idea" but then after some thought....
By using a lo-slot module for are sacrificing the ability to fit one movement mod already... so the speed is already nerfed bersus a mid slot tanker who has free lo's. |
Ra Jackson
PILSGESCHWADER Monkey Circus
31
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:46:00 -
[34] - Quote
First people complain that solo is dead, then they want to stomp ASBs |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2148
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Posted - 2012.09.14 15:59:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ra Jackson wrote:First people complain that solo is dead, then they want to stomp ASBs
ASBs do not really help solo PVP, IMO.
-Liang
Ed: And yes, I solo PVP. A lot. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
495
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ra Jackson wrote:First people complain that solo is dead, then they want to stomp ASBs ASBs do not really help solo PVP, IMO. -Liang Ed: And yes, I solo PVP. A lot.
they really do aid solo in a big way.
however against more than one guy, ecm, ecm drones, damps Tds etc still will just make your while lengthy death, no less inevitable, i agree.
But a solo tank thats normally a decent buffer, can be adapted to ASBs with good success.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2148
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote: they really do aid solo in a big way.
however against more than one guy, ecm, ecm drones, damps Tds etc still will just make your while lengthy death, no less inevitable, i agree.
But a solo tank thats normally a decent buffer, can be adapted to ASBs with good success.
You cannot only look at ASBs from your perspective. You must also look at them as your enemies having ASBs as well, unless there's some compelling reason that they won't have one fit. From the small gang/solo perspective, this means that the fight comes down to exactly the same mechanics as if we didn't have the ASB at all: can your "buffer" hold out long enough for their/your mates to get to the fight. With only you on the field, the answer is almost certainly yes with regards to whether their mates will get there.
The only reason I can really think of that ASBs would help is when you are solo engaging The Blob and you've got some sort of specialized fit for extra damage mitigation/anti tackle. You could reasonably assert that they're looking for bigger gangs and are probably buffer fit. Then again, they probably also have Logis so your only hope is pulling someone 100km+ away from their gang and nuking them down.
Basically what I'm pointing out here is that ASBs are fantastic for solo PVP if I'm the only one on the field with one. But that's just stupid.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
495
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
you make an excellent point, but consider that the ASB makes a fight even against another ASB fit ship MORE interesting than waring a buffer down, or capping out etc.
The asb you have a new level of micro management in pvp, overall i like, but i do not defend dual ASB setups at all. they are broken and barly fun. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2151
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
ASBs do not introduce a new level of micro management in PVP - they in fact dumb down what active tanking used to be. I've found that ASB fit vs ASB fit tends to boil down to damage and damage mitigation combined with someone's utterly stupid (eg, they run all 13 boosts because they don't know how to turn off a mod).
ASBs (as a general mechanic) are OP and I think we could have gotten the same "good" side effects from boosting Heat.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
495
|
Posted - 2012.09.14 16:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: I think we could have gotten the same "good" side effects from boosting Heat.
-Liang
I think this is the most interesting and great thing ive read all day :D
+1 give heat more love
EDIT: if ASBs are here to stay mostly as they are then armor reps do need some love (perhaps mad heat bonus going off above quote) http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
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Recoil IV
Knights of the Posing Meat Ineluctable.
16
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:29:00 -
[41] - Quote
people complain about how powerfull asb is when in fact it isnt.its powerfull in first 30 seconds of perma usage and when the cap boosters run out.well **** hits the fan and you loose a ship. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1203
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
Recoil thanks for that well-thought argument and excellent presentation.
However, it's better to fit a Myrm with dual XLASBs than with dual LARs. I mean if you could fit dual LARs on it, they would still be worse. That's a hull that gets a bonus to armor rep strength, by the way.
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2153
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
Roime wrote:Recoil thanks for that well-thought argument and excellent presentation.
However, it's better to fit a Myrm with dual XLASBs than with dual LARs. I mean if you could fit dual LARs on it, they would still be worse. That's a hull that gets a bonus to armor rep strength, by the way.
Hell, it's better to fit a myrm with dual XL ASBs than it is to fit triple deadspace reps (a-type) with T2 rigs.
-Liang
Ed: And I mean that in every single way. All the way to tank longevity. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
495
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:43:00 -
[44] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote:people complain about how powerfull asb is when in fact it isnt.its powerfull in first 30 seconds of perma usage and when the cap boosters run out.well **** hits the fan and you loose a ship.
Its the dual ASB fits that are broken, single ASB are still extremely potent but like you said, they run out after 30-40 seconds which i think CCP intended.
Crystals, boost bonus from ship, tengu links, make dual ASBs nothing short of godly, demi god if you dont have a boost bonus on your ship :P http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Hrett
Justified Chaos
195
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Posted - 2012.09.15 02:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Recoil IV wrote:people complain about how powerfull asb is when in fact it isnt.its powerfull in first 30 seconds of perma usage and when the cap boosters run out.well **** hits the fan and you loose a ship. Its the dual ASB fits that are broken, single ASB are still extremely potent but like you said, they run out after 30-40 seconds which i think CCP intended. Crystals, boost bonus from ship, tengu links, make dual ASBs nothing short of godly, demi god if you dont have a boost bonus on your ship :P
This. There is a recent 26+ page thread here already discussing this. And another recent thread discussing potential armor/shield balance. So, without going into detailed discussion again:
Nerf dual ASB, balance armor, nerf offgrid boosting. \o/
IMHO. I'm probably typing on an iPad, which means the auto-correct is silly and fixing typos is a pain. I ain't fixing them. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
728
|
Posted - 2012.09.15 13:48:00 -
[46] - Quote
I'd still be a lot more scared and certainly say to my self "got fcked" if Lokis could use those too.
brb |
Roime
Shiva Furnace Dead On Arrival Alliance
1224
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Posted - 2012.09.18 10:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Roime wrote:noiserevbus, not sarcastic but bitter :D Seriously though and on topic, I couldn't find any better Dev post than this one by Paradox: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1908377#post1908377Quote: For the ASB changes, we will make a thread over on the Test Server Feedback forums when the time comes. As the blog said, from about 18th September onwards you will see the thread, and we will engage in feedback there to the design changes that come. I won't go into details here, as it isn't yet the time or place to do it.
Thanks!
So changes are coming, more info next week!
Bumping because of 18th
Gallente - the choice of the interstellar gentleman |
feihcsiM
Last Exit For The Lost Dark Therapy
47
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Posted - 2012.09.18 10:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Recoil IV wrote:people complain about how powerfull asb is when in fact it isnt.its powerfull in first 30 seconds of perma usage and when the cap boosters run out.well **** hits the fan and you loose a ship.
Nothing stopping you fitting an XLASB directly in place of an expensive standard booster. By that I mean keeping the usual cap booster etc on a rokh/mael/other pvp fit and just swapping out the repper and setting auto reload off. When the charges in the repper run out you still have a beastly tank as long as you have cap, and you will still have your cap injector for that. Sure, once the ASB is out of charges it's around 30% less efficient in terms of cap used/shieldHP than, for instance, a Cal Navy XLSB, but still gives 30% more HP per boost cycle to compensate somewhat. A ship with a single XLASB running out of charges in the ASB doesn't necessarily always mean insta death.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. |
Iyica de Tylmarand
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
6
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Posted - 2012.09.20 09:46:00 -
[49] - Quote
feihcsiM wrote:Recoil IV wrote:people complain about how powerfull asb is when in fact it isnt.its powerfull in first 30 seconds of perma usage and when the cap boosters run out.well **** hits the fan and you loose a ship. Nothing stopping you fitting an XLASB directly in place of an expensive standard booster. By that I mean keeping the usual cap booster etc on a rokh/mael/other pvp fit and just swapping out the repper and setting auto reload off. When the charges in the repper run out you still have a beastly tank as long as you have cap, and you will still have your cap injector for that. Sure, once the ASB is out of charges it's around 30% less efficient in terms of cap used/shieldHP than, for instance, a Cal Navy XLSB, but still gives 30% more HP per boost cycle to compensate somewhat. A ship with a single XLASB running out of charges in the ASB doesn't necessarily always mean insta death. The majority of ASB ships do not have a cap booster except for perhaps the Rokh which needs it so it can use its guns. A Rokh with max cap skills and a Heavy Cap Booster injecting navy 800s will only be able to support 29 seconds of an XLASB running on cap. If I was that Rokh pilot I wouldn't do more than 3-4 boosts without charges or I wouldn't be able to run my invulns/mwd or even my guns. That's pretty much death.
Single ASB IMO is balanced. It requires you to either fight hit and run (running while charges are reloading), which requires skill (e.g. avoid tackle so you can actually retreat during the reload) or it requires very high DPS to take things out before you reload. I think this is great PvP. Permatanking an entire gang with dual XLASB on the other hand is not great (from the perspective of maximising fun for both sides of the fight).
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
991
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Posted - 2012.09.20 20:02:00 -
[50] - Quote
Didn't notice if this has already been posted here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1943554&%20#post1943554 |
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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
1
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Posted - 2012.09.20 23:15:00 -
[51] - Quote
Iyica de Tylmarand wrote:Permatanking an entire gang with dual XLASB on the other hand is not great (from the perspective of maximising fun for both sides of the fight).
If by perma-tanking you mean tanking for the span of a few dozen cap boosters. Based on my napkin math, a cyclone could only keep dual XLASB's going for ~2 minutes not including reload.
Why is it that no one factors in how blasted space expensive boosters are? I really don't follow. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.21 17:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
I think we can expect the ASB to stick around in much its current shape, other than to limit it to one per ship. One of thier stated goals is to make pvp and pve more similar in terms of fits, and part of that difference is the gap between active and buffer tanks.
I'd love to see a new armor repaired that provided a passive repair rate while off, and a huge + cap draining rate while on. |
Superior Glokta
Inner Melody
3
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Posted - 2012.09.21 23:45:00 -
[53] - Quote
Roime wrote:CCP aknowledges the issues with armor tanking, and that is why they introduced ASBs.
In the next balancing pass they will reduce the fitting requirements of ASBs, because it's currently impossible to fit dual XLASBs on frigates.
They will also seed a new armor module, that requires cap, makes your ship slower, uses most of your grid and CPU, requires a new skill to be trained and doesn't actually do anything.
Off to EFT my new Myrmidon with this new module. Will it have a corresponding rig with a ship mass penalty? |
Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
0
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Posted - 2012.09.22 17:24:00 -
[54] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Its space and this is a game, so dont bother with saying "its logical that more armor slows you down" because you are correct, but for balance sake its sucky
Logical to slow down acceleration. That is a consequence of added mass. EvE's propensity to punish top speed via mass is illogical.
There is no valid reason that armor tanking ships should be 'slower' than shield tanking ships... until they start maneuvering. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
752
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 22:46:00 -
[55] - Quote
Val'Dore wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:Its space and this is a game, so dont bother with saying "its logical that more armor slows you down" because you are correct, but for balance sake its sucky
Logical to slow down acceleration. That is a consequence of added mass. EvE's propensity to punish top speed via mass is illogical. There is no valid reason that armor tanking ships should be 'slower' than shield tanking ships... until they start maneuvering.
Because in Eve there's no space, just some weird liquid.
brb |
Mars Theran
Estel Arador Corp Services
298
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Posted - 2012.09.24 01:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
Confirming that BattleCruisers with >1200 DPS tanks are a little excessive when there are no Faction, Complex, Officer fittings involved and the ship can still dps and have enough EHP to ignore Alpha.
edit: ..and that's the Meta 0 version. Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
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