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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Aprudena Gist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.09.18 16:02:00 -
[331] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:Kuehnelt wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:hmmm and about the DRONE bonus for the gallente!!!!1?1? It'll be on the Vexor. hmm true, but the main question is why the Amar have the bonus? I still need to get used to the idea that celestis main rolle will be long range Damp for sniper fleet cover. I don't see it near the front line... I was hoping that it could be used to kill things... Also, these ship bonuses goes up with level or it is a flat vallue? The arbitrator has the bonus because the curse and pilgrim also have the bonus. |
Lelob
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2012.09.18 16:11:00 -
[332] - Quote
Celestis and arbitrator changes look good. Another arbi mid tbh would be nice though to really properly balance it out.
I think the bellicose may suffer as a result of the lack of turret slots. At the moment it can make a fairly inexpensive anti-frig platform with medium neuts, webs and guns making it surprisingly good. Missiles are kinda awful at killing frigs so this may cause some of the utility to go. Another 10m3 in the drone bay wouldn't hurt either.
The blackbird NEEDS A NERF. Buffing it with another lowslot is beyond me seens how it is probably already the most commonly flown t1 cruiser to begin with. In addition to that giving it more lock range will just make it even easier to fit out to be extremely good at jamming. You have really missed the boat on this ship. I would suggest taking away the 3rd lowslot and reducing its jamming strength if you want to balance it out more. |
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
197
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Posted - 2012.09.18 16:15:00 -
[333] - Quote
Pretty sure ECM is getting whacked, TDs toned down a bit, Damps an improvement, and not sure about painters themselves. |
PinkKnife
The Scope Gallente Federation
209
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Posted - 2012.09.18 21:32:00 -
[334] - Quote
My main concern is the arbitrator stepping all over the Throax and Vexor. Arby now has more drone bay and the same bandwidth as the Thorax, and while the vexor has 75mb of bandwidth, you aren't going to effectively use it to field 4 lights and a heavy or 3 mediums and a heavy drone or something like that. It will largely go underutilized since split drone fleets are...cumbersome. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1002
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:07:00 -
[335] - Quote
AHAHAHAHAHAH I'm Down comes at Fozzie with his half cocked EFT theorycrafting and gets stuffed firmly into the hurtlocker.
Yaay you weren't good enough to theory craft against our best while you were IN PL, you certainly aren't good enough to do it now that you've left. |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
109
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:10:00 -
[336] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Good morning everyone. Gonna go over some of the key questions and comments I'm seeing in the thread so far.
I'm going to start by reminding everyone that all the designs posted in this forum are very much open to more changes as time goes on. What I'm proposing for the Bellicose is a bit outside the usual mold and if it turns out to be too powerful there's a lot of ways we can adjust it downwards before release. That being said, building strawman fits optimized for EFT numbers is the oldest trick in the book for "winning" theorycrafting arguments and you shouldn't count on me not knowing the difference between the paper dps of a 4 damage mod rage ham setup and the actual value of that ship in space.
I'm going to pin you down and dry hump you next fanfest |
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
38
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Posted - 2012.09.18 22:56:00 -
[337] - Quote
I love the changes. I think bringing t1 cruisers back into the game is something that's needed.
Only having flown an abitrator extensively, as co-founder of the super secret awesome arbitrator recon death squad team, it is the only one I really have any authority on to speak of.
The arbitrator was by far the best solo roaming cruiser in terms of survivability and versatility. I think by giving it an extra low you will be putting it on par with the thorax in terms of combat effectiveness. I'm not sure this is what you want to do, because it is already reasonably powerful.
[Arbitrator, New Setup 1] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II
10MN MicroWarpdrive I Tracking Disruptor II, Optimal Range Disruption Script Warp Disruptor II Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 200
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Conflagration S
Hammerhead II x5
Bare in mind this was a few years ago, this was the fit we used to use. It could go toe to toe against most thoraxes because of the TD and ability to dictate range with the neuts. If you optimise the fit, add trimarks, and take into account the extra low, my concern is that it would be TOO beefy compared to the other cruisers.
My humble suggestion would be to remove the stupid token launcher slots, drop a high, keep two turret slots, keep 4 lows and add a mid. This would allow the ship to more effectively make use of its ewar bonus, something which it has difficulty doing thanks to cap managment, while maintaining the brawling ability of the cruiser, without giving it too much EHP.
If you consider this TOO powerful, how about dropping some of the drone bandwidth? |
Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.09.18 23:37:00 -
[338] - Quote
One of the long time problems w/the beli has been it's tiny pg, fit it w/ 4xhams, MWD and one LSE, oh wait it still doesn't fit, even dropping to t1 MWD and T1 LSE leaves...2.65 pg to spare - you're boosting the other weapon fitting requirements, how about lowering HAM PG requirements or giving the Beli an extra few PG like 10 to 15?
And Target painters are still a joke (too little boost, and WAY to long cycle time). 7.5% bonus on a nearly worthless mod while EW remains 15% bonus, seriously? I must have missed those fleets of Beli's out there, or all the Huginn's and rapiers that give up webs for TP's..... Minmatar EW remains an afterthought. |
Anah Karah
Origin. Black Legion.
9
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Posted - 2012.09.19 04:20:00 -
[339] - Quote
I hope there are plans to carry these bonus changes onward to the T2 Recon variants of these hulls, as it will be strange to have t1 cruisers more powerful than their t2 counterparts. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
435
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Posted - 2012.09.19 07:59:00 -
[340] - Quote
People complaining the Bellicose doesn't have turrets arethe same people who fly the Cane with AC/neuts and scoff that some people sometimes fit missiles in the utility slots.
I like the idea of a kitey Minmatar missile cruiser. With TP's. To make it actually effective (also, with the missile changes this compounds the buff).
CCP Fozzie is right, to a point. 4 HAM with Rages is pretty OP DPS on paper. But you will see these paper tigers floating about, namely when taking Bellicose for a spin against BS's. Against other cruisers, to get the full effect of your EFT paper tiger you'll need a web on the enemy. And a TP, most likely, or missile rigs, which makes it a glass cannon Belli.
The biggest concern is the cap, to me. I still can't see if there will be enough juice in any of the kiting cruisers to have them MWD for more than 40s. In an era where Slashers, Atrons, etc can now MWD with impunity and use MASB's to tank, your cruisers will come out of the box totally outclassed if they can't maintain velocity long enough. The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Vaal Hadren
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
22
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Posted - 2012.09.19 09:22:00 -
[341] - Quote
These changes look great, particularly the arbitrator, an already charming ship made better. The speed boost here is very welcome.
But I have to ask (I got to page 2 and didn't see anyone mention it). . .
Why is the most potent EWAR effectively double bonused compared to the others?
15% ECM strength?
WHY?
While on the subject, ECM should break locks but not render the ship effectively disabled for 20 seconds with the possibility of being permajammed thereby. Lock Breaking alone would 'balance' it. 5 seconds of Jam (in addition to the lock breaking) would certainly be adequete to make ECM an effective fleet asset without making it the loathesome and malice fomenting thing that it is. At the moment, as has been screaming from the pavement for years, and underscored by the last Alliance Tournament Final I might add, ECM is stupid. So, are you going to unsuck this horrid horrid thing?
Otherwise, these, the 'Combat' cruisers and the 'Attack' cruisers look truly awesome. More than I had hoped for tbh. Well done and thanks. |
Gelvina
Temnava Legion TEMNAVA
1
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Posted - 2012.09.19 09:25:00 -
[342] - Quote
my 0.02 iskies...
Why can't the bellicose have a somewhat larger drone bay? say 40 bandwidth and 60 drone bay ? or is this OP?
In any case as it currently stand bellicose will not be used more than it is currently used I think?
scripts for Target Painters please!
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Aiifa
My Little Pony - Friendship Force
46
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Posted - 2012.09.19 15:19:00 -
[343] - Quote
I hope these changes are reworked totally before being pushed. They're in the right direction, but they're not quite right. The answer to difficult to fly and flimsy ships isn't to throw more slots and fitting at them. It's to balance everything around them. Including gameplay.
I've already whined about this here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=692924#post692924
having ewar like tds affect everything and support like tracking links or tes/tcs affect everything as opposed to just turrets homogenises the game. yet again we're approaching a situation in which each class size has a long range and a short range weapons system, each range coming in four different skins |
Spr09
East India Ore Trade Intrepid Crossing
51
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Posted - 2012.09.20 00:37:00 -
[344] - Quote
Celestis and Arbitrator look fine, Bellicose and Blackbird look a little funky though, the balckbird should have a hybrid turret bonus instead of 2 ecm bonuses and the Bellicose needs a turret bonus, not missiles. |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
64
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Posted - 2012.09.20 03:23:00 -
[345] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Thanks to everyone why has been providing constructive feedback here, I really appreciate it.
Have a few tweaks to announce, they're all updated in the OP as well.
- Removed 10m3 dronebay and 10mbit bandwidth from the Bellicose, dropping it back to the 40m3 it has on TQ now. We may re-evaluate again in the future.
- Added a launcher hardpoint to the Arbitrator and Celestis Given that Amarr and Gallente are the main drone races now, and Minmatar are the 2nd missile race, feel free to reduce the drone bay on the Bellicose further in exchange for another missile hardpoint |
Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.09.20 16:54:00 -
[346] - Quote
CCP Fozzie
Since I know you read these threads, I wonder if I could get a response to my earlier questions?
It is especially frustrating to hear you say you are looking to balance EW systems, yet are doing nothing to help target painters (or the ships that use them). First off we do not see widespread use of them, most huginns and rapiers I run across (or fly) fit webs instead of them, and I can't even remember the last time I saw a beli (not surprising because w/their tiny pg most can hardly fit cruiser sized weaons).
It is long since time since painters have been looked at, but lets look a bit at the numbers. Lets use the example of a max skilled caracal pilot using heavy missiles against a slasher running an ab (but no other tank), we'll give the caracal a single damage mod (BCU II), using scourge missiles:
The caracal will do 32 DPS to the slasher w/ it's AB off and 17 DPS with it's AB on.
Next we'll have a beli paint the frigate, the numbers jump to 42 DPS w/o ab and 22 DPS with ab.
Now we'll take off the painter and put on a web, now we get 60 DPS w/o ab and 31 DPS with ab.
So why exactly should the beli carry a painter? An unbonused web is still better. The painter is not a 'long range' ew either, with an optimal of 45 and falloff of 90 (max skills, t2), there is almost no reason at all to put one on a huginn or rapier.
Now lets increase the bonus on the beli/huginn/rapier to 15% per level, the numbers with a painter become:
46 DPS w/o ab and 24 DPS with an ab.
Even with double the bonus on the ship, can you find a reason to lose a web for a painter? The numbers with guns are even worse since missile damage scales linearly with target radius.
You said you want to balance EW, if so then painters need to be looked at, because they aren't balanced. They need a shorter cycle time (and reduced cap per cycle to keep them consistent) so they can cycle with the ships weapons they are supporting (nobody wants to wait 10 sec for painters when you can web in 5 seconds) and better bonuses before players are going to chose them over webs. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2260
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Posted - 2012.09.20 17:04:00 -
[347] - Quote
Veryez wrote: So why exactly should the beli carry a painter? An unbonused web is still better. The painter is not a 'long range' ew either, with an optimal of 45 and falloff of 90 (max skills, t2), there is almost no reason at all to put one on a huginn or rapier.
You have ~80% chance of landing a painter cycle at 90km. That's more than sufficient for most practical uses of missiles.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Harvey James
Prospero's Sight
19
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Posted - 2012.09.22 15:12:00 -
[348] - Quote
well i think its ridiculous that you can get webs on a rapier up to 105km and warp disruptors on an Arazu 97km this is why no one puts TP's and sensor dampeners on them. |
Lili Lu
465
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Posted - 2012.09.22 15:35:00 -
[349] - Quote
Aiifa wrote: having ewar like tds affect everything and support like tracking links or tes/tcs affect everything as opposed to just turrets homogenises the game. yet again we're approaching a situation in which each class size has a long range and a short range weapons system, each range coming in four different skins On your first sentence - It does not homogenize the game. It fixes a hole in the ewar capabilities. There has been no specific ewar addressing missiles. Smarties are only a valid tactic with a large fleet and even there it was a tactic bourne out of desperation to do something to address drake blob missile spam. the use of them has it's own problems and it is frankly not very good. SMarties are better as an antidrone weapon anyway.
Buffing the other ewars now opens up use of those ships that heretofore was get an ecm boat or gtfo.
Also, currently amarr TD-ing is totally ineffectual against a whole range of ships (missile boats). Meanwhile all the other ewar boats can do something that affects all other ships (even painting) whether or not it has the most desirable utility in the particular combat circumstances. The balancing team is well aware that TDs could become op (and some argue they are already op when fit on missile boats to laugh at turret boats) and I would bet we see a module strength nerf accross the board on their turret and missile effects making them rather weak on an unbonused ship.
On your second sentence - The range on heavy missiles was an anomaly that had to be fixed. There should not be only one race in this game that can effectively own a whole combat tactic for itself. Here that being sniping. (and I'm looking at the destroyer changes and wondering how the balancing team is missing the problem that a 10% per level bonus on the already longest range guns presents). It is fine to give some races a slight advantage and thus a preference for a particular tactic. It is bad design to effectively engineer whole races out of a whole tactic or limit their fittings such that they can only engage in one tactic (particularly when other mechanics in the game make that tactic unworkable - see Gallente as balster only but weighted down failures for example). |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
320
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Posted - 2012.09.22 15:42:00 -
[350] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Smarties are only a valid tactic with a large fleet .
I suggest you take a look at tournament destroyer fits.
Edit: Also, I knew as soon as I opened the thread, that you would be arguing that TDs need buffs. If they need buffs though, why do you fit them to every single one of your ships? |
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Lili Lu
465
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Posted - 2012.09.22 16:02:00 -
[351] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Lili Lu wrote:Smarties are only a valid tactic with a large fleet . I suggest you take a look at tournament destroyer fits. Edit: Also, I knew as soon as I opened the thread, that you would be arguing that TDs need buffs. If they need buffs though, why do you fit them to every single one of your ships? WHat are you talking about? I haven't been flying Lili in combat for aquite a while (haven't hardly been logging her in tbh, and using other characters for pvp atm). And even when I was using Lili I wasn't fitting TDs and wasn't flying curses and pilgrims most the time.
TDs are being fit to many of the rebalanced and buffed frigs atm. Hookbills, Condors, and Merlins having a field day killing turret frigs and destroyers in fw plexes.
And no, I don't want TDs buffed. I want them to affect missiles. That is so amarr has an ewar that is universally effective just like every other race has one.
But in fact I want TD base strength nerfed. That does two things. It avoids the TD as mandatory I-win like the old multispec ecm modules used to be. It also makes amarr ewar boats almost as desirable in gangs and maybe even fleets as ecm boats are currently. In fact I want the base strength on painters and damps nerfed as well. Then we can have maybe 15-30% per level bonuses on the ships that are bonused for those modules just like we have for ecm boats. That design got rid of the unbonused ewar I-win module and kept the ewar boats themselves desirable for ecm. It can do the same for the other ewar boats. And that would be good for the game as a whole.
If the base turret and missile disrupting effects on the modules is made weak then missile users have less to worry. It helps fix an emerging imbalance. And it makes more than just the Caldari ewar boats desirable. Win for everyone tbh. |
Muestereate
Two Geezers in Space
46
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Posted - 2012.09.23 05:48:00 -
[352] - Quote
The belicose would be nice with tracking link boosts as the second bonus. Target painter isn't very good but against shield boats with a bigger sig. It starts to help tracking. If you could throw a good tracking link the bonuses could really work together to do what Minmatar is supposed to do and add applied dps. The way the tracking formula works, TP's just aren't effective on cruisers and frigates like they are with bigger signature boats. This expansion looks to be boosting these smaller gangs and I think more tracking could balance out some of the speed issues that are going to be encountered. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
290
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Posted - 2012.09.23 07:16:00 -
[353] - Quote
TP's are in for an overhaul as is all eWar. Until we know where they land I'd say it is premature to suggest muddying the waters by moving bonuses to and fro.
All the half-assed T1 logistic cruisers are getting the chance to grow up and become proper logistics .. includes the Scythe.
And yeah, proposed changes so far do point quite clearly towards a boost to small-gang action. Seven plus years of CCP continually saying the small gang is/was/should be a primary focus and nothing happens until they bring in the Fozz man. |
Sieonigh
United Brothers Of Eve Seventh Sanctum.
0
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Posted - 2012.09.23 16:40:00 -
[354] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:TP's are in for an overhaul as is all eWar. Until we know where they land I'd say it is premature to suggest muddying the waters by moving bonuses to and fro.
All the half-assed T1 logistic cruisers are getting the chance to grow up and become proper logistics .. includes the Scythe.
And yeah, proposed changes so far do point quite clearly towards a boost to small-gang action. Seven plus years of CCP continually saying the small gang is/was/should be a primary focus and nothing happens until they bring in the Fozz man.
agreed TPs do need an overhaul, i only ever see them fitted to bombers and as every one knows BLOPS is e-war spam but i digress.
# the Arbitrator looks like where its at in terms of power and e-war effectiveness nothing much i would want changed there maybe 1 more turret and launcher hard point to give it the diversity i needs
# the Blackbird imo doesn't need a buff the added drones is nice thats all i would about do, the extra low concerns me the potential it add is powerful. (more jamming strength, faster align time, DCU, force feed back cod-piece) i would limit its max locked targets to 7 though.
# the Celestis seems fine to me nothing much i would changer there too. i would limit its max locked targets to 7 mirroring the Blackbird and reducing the amount instant target switch to whom you want to be a **** to.
# the Bellicose i think need work done to it mainly cause TPs are merely an inconvenience rather than a disruption, i saw the suggestion to giving it the bonus to end up with with a 20km T2/meta 4 web. but that would entail a lot of people outright ignoring the TP bonus. the missile launchers is nice i like that and they do work together well the TP. with the foreseen nerf to missile i think the TP needs to make missile do more damage instead of helping them reach their max damage. as for turrets i think TPs should do more for tracking a target. and i know im going to be screamed at for even suggesting this but i do feel TPs should be just as feared as webs or tracking disruption. as for people crying over the drone bay in minmatar ships not being minmatar, case in point the typhoon has big drone bay and can field 5 heavys |
Muestereate
Two Geezers in Space
46
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Posted - 2012.09.23 18:02:00 -
[355] - Quote
Balance of these ewar cruiser can be looked at mathematically. Each type would need its own formulas but they can all be rendered down to what percentage of APPLIED DPS they take off or in the Belicoses case add to the field. I think they should be very effective so that it is exciting for new cruiser pilots to be an important part of the battle. Remember, they get no kill mails without whoring. Applying dps is fun. Making an ewar pilot important should increase overall game value by increasing the fun factor.
Caldari Ewar has always been superior, it shouldn't change but the other forms need to be closer in effectiveness. Its kinda fun because of the thin hull but also the amount of damage it can take off the field and it teaches a lot about ship ID, range. I consider the BBird to take off about 30% of the damage from its target and it has 4 or 5 active modules. with equal ships it take down 1and1/3 to 1and2/3 ship dps
The Arbitrator's td take about 28% of applied dps per available midslot. Less available slots but balance is about right if you want to leave the ewar edge to Caldari per racial history.
The Celestis range bonuses are much needed but its going to need super fast lock times to be effective because its contribution to damage mitigation is limited to the first shot. In a one and a half minute battle it could mitigate 30% of short range and in a longer battle it could delay snipers thereby taking them out but damage mitigation at this point, seems to me, related to engagement length. I don't agree that the celestis is fixed though you've addressed its major range shortcoming.
The Belicose doesn't subtract damage from the field. It adds it. A TP adds damage several ways. It can decrease lock time. Best case is the fleet locks a second sooner. The first shot can be decisive. The cycle times are to long though but it is apart of the applied DPS formula. Everybody knows Sig bloom equals missile damage but it also means turret tracking. These need balanced to each other on the TP/missle overhaul but the majority of the battle is turrets. On a turret your lucky to get 7% increase to dps. If a TP could be cycled and coordinated with multiple strikes it starts to balance. 4 guns adding &% is 28%. But your talking 4 sets of guns coordinated before the TP approaches other ewar with no edge given for the teamwork effort over other ewar. .Also, A seven percent boost isn't going to be noticeable enough to be fun for the other dps pilots. When you put a tracking link on somebody, they know it and appreciate it. It become fun again. Now a couple ships are adding 13% applied damage instead of 7%. With the Belis missile damage its like bringing two ships worth of applied DPS.
Run some simulations with different gang sizes and balance applied and mitigated DPS. Pull out the tracking formula, consider lock times, Balance effectiveness, Go ahead and give the edge to Caldari and that paper hull it deserves it. :) |
Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.09.24 00:13:00 -
[356] - Quote
Muestereate wrote: The Belicose doesn't subtract damage from the field. It adds it. A TP adds damage several ways. It can decrease lock time. Best case is the fleet locks a second sooner. The first shot can be decisive. The cycle times are to long though but it is apart of the applied DPS formula. Everybody knows Sig bloom equals missile damage but it also means turret tracking. These need balanced to each other on the TP/missle overhaul but the majority of the battle is turrets. On a turret your lucky to get 7% increase to dps. (I still need to run this with lazers and hybrids) ONLY If a TP can be cycled and coordinated with multiple strikes it starts to balance. 4 guns adding 7% is 28%. But your talking 4 sets of guns coordinated before the TP approaches other ewar with no edge given for the teamwork effort over other ewar. .Also, A seven percent boost isn't going to be noticeable enough to be fun for the other dps pilots. They will still get heckled- no fun. But, when you put a tracking link on somebody, they know it and appreciate it. It become fun again. Now a couple ships are adding 13% applied damage and the others shooting primary are adding 7%. Your up to that 30% number with a small gang. Add the Belis missile damage its like bringing two ships worth of applied DPS. Something like an aggressive BBIRD
This looks like pure theorycraft. Target painter doesn't exactly add damage, but helps you raise your actual damage closer to your maximum theoretical damage, however I would grant this little discrepancy had the rest of your post not been so flawed.
Muestereate wrote: Best case is the fleet locks a second sooner.
Assuming the fleet is trying to lock someone that the TP ship has already locked and is currently painting (and is within 40k, or you bring falloff into the equation).
Muestereate wrote: Everybody knows Sig bloom equals missile damage but it also means turret tracking.
Sig bloom has nothing to do with turret tracking, it effects the chance to hit (you might want to read http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage again).
Muestereate wrote: On a turret your lucky to get 7% increase to dps. (I still need to run this with lazers and hybrids) ONLY If a TP can be cycled and coordinated with multiple strikes it starts to balance. 4 guns adding 7% is 28%."
In my experience it adds less than 1%, I have no idea where you get 7% from. And 4 guns adding 7% damage is = 7% damage. For the math challenged, lets say 1 gun was 100 dps, 7% more would be 107 dps - 4 guns would be 400 dps, 7% more would be 428 dps which happens to equal 107 +107 +107 +107 (dps)....
Muestereate wrote: But, when you put a tracking link on somebody, they know it and appreciate it. It become fun again."
Yes since you are effecting their Optimal, Falloff and tracking, you effect their Hit Chance, and their damage (read up on hit quality - also on that page I linked), so lets see better chance to hit, better hit quality and longer range - what's not to like? Also I thought you were discussing the Beli and it's TP bonus, at least I was.
The rest of your statement is foolish, but if you think bringing a beli to a fight is like bringing 2 cruisers, I can't wait to meet you in space. |
Muestereate
Two Geezers in Space
53
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Posted - 2012.09.24 02:10:00 -
[357] - Quote
Thanks for taking the time to read my post. My perspective is different than yours. I apologize for leading you to believe that a fellow pilot might be a fool. Surely having to judge others is a heavy burden I wish I hadn't pput on you. One area My post differed is that In a previous post (2 up) I suggested that a TL Bonus be the second bonus on the Beli INSTEAD of the missile ROF Bonus. Otherwise TP's would have to bloom sigs like a MW.
On point one, Increasing damage toward the theoretical limit is what I call applied damage. I used that term in my post prior to the one you quoted. Applied damage is the opposite of theorycraft (eft) from my perspective because I'm talking about actual applied and NOT theoretical maximum. I DO have to make assumptions to calculate it though of course. Assuming a range is a bit different than theory but in advance, I used many estimates in my calcs. Absolutes are not possible in a general discussion involving different guns ammo skills ships etc etc. I had to use averages from experience. My memory is not flawless. Applied is still an estimate in other words.
Point two correctly assumes the TP is prelocked. I wasn't trying to make a huge point that decreased lock time due to TP increased damage a lot. On the contrary, I was acknowledging it had an effect but downplaying its role. Lock time needs to be considered to properly balance ewar. Its a huge part of the calcs that can't be ignored. In fact sensor strengths, if the rest is pretty closed to balance could be used to hone the edge. This goes for all ships. fast lock on ewar is real nice. TP is NOT the answer to this though as you noted.
On your point about sig bloom and tracking. To my knowledge the chance to hit formula has always been called the tracking formula. Gun tracking is only one factor in how the tracking formula works. Your splitting hairs with semantics, it sounds like you understand tracking so your real objection should be about the nomenclature of the tracking formula. Words can have more than one meaning. I'm using it in a general way in context of the whole formula and your using it specifically in the context of just the turret. All we have to agree on is the wording to reach understanding.
With regard to my applied dps calculations, I have stated it doesn't take into all types of turrets. I worked these numbers on autocannons, afterburner frigs versus frigs and cruisers versus cruisers. I did not run velocities but I thought I estimated to the high side on them. I used a 1000 and 700 which would decrease damage rather than increase. for ranges I used optimal plus half of falloff. TP sig I used 40% TL I think I used scripted and rounded to 40% also. Yes I am estimating. They were quick numbers. Roughly the calculations went like this: chance to hit .367, tp .60, .60-.367 =.233. Now take that .233 and divide it by the original chance to hit and you get 6.3% and this varies with tp skill and gunnery skills among other things.
Pretty sure I ran the Tracking link numbers off a boosted scythe with scripts to come up with the final 13 to 14% improvement in chance to hit. Actual damage per shot doesn't go up like you are probably observing but the number of hits goes up instead.
My larger number is not hits from multiple turrets from one ship but from multiple hits. Target painter is one to many. I'll concede the point. If 4 ships all hit with 7% more damage, it does not equal 28% but 7 because the previous dps was probably a simultaneous strike also. TP doesn't change how the fleet operates except to encourage staying on called targets because they are painted.
I still think my Tracking LInk second bonus is the best way to balance the Belis Ewar within the context of balancing the amount of DPS added or subtracted from the field.
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Veryez
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2012.09.24 20:27:00 -
[358] - Quote
Muestereate wrote:Thanks for taking the time to read my post. My perspective is different than yours. I apologize for leading you to believe that a fellow pilot might be a fool....
I never said you were a fool, just that your statement was foolish. There is a difference. Like I said, I would have overlooked your early slip had other glaring errors not been present. The fact that others read and get influenced by these forums, is a good reason to try to be as accurate as possible.
The beli is a t1 cruiser, it won't get a second bonus, especially one normally reserved for a t2 logistics ship. I'm not sure how you're planning on flying this, but I'm thinking Hams, MWD and a shield buffer, a cheap suicide ship. Never mind the small range on hams, but since I have to use a fitting mod just to fit that, I might as well go web and scrambler, because I will be doing more damage (applied damage) with a web than I do using the bonus painter. Doesn't that seem a bit wrong to you? Shouldn't my applied damage be better using something the ship is bonused for? This is the biggest issue with target painters, even with a ship's bonus, the web is still better (which the old CCP would read as "need to nerf webs").
While I now understand your 7% number, I can tell you that the times I tried it on TQ, it hardly made a difference, if it wound up being 1% I would be surprised.
Painters need to be looked at, period. They are not balanced against other forms of EW, even bonused they fall behind. Their cycle time is too long, often I launch a salvo or two waiting for it to cycle off. To the person who said ccp is looking at EW, I certainly hope so, because painters have been a joke for a very, very long time. I really don't expect CCP to do much w/ew, but we'll see. |
Muestereate
Two Geezers in Space
64
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Posted - 2012.09.24 23:04:00 -
[359] - Quote
Like I said, I feel these conversations can't be an exact science. Until some constraints on the discussed parameters are laid out, broad general terms keep the thinking more fluid and open. There are so many variables here.. Often the conversation just stops at: BBIRD ECM = bad = nerf:) Target painting? I can't remember the last discussion. Sensor dampeners? My idea is they would work nice to pull logi into range and delay their repping, taking tank off the field. Same with snipers but we would need much longer range. I need to look closer at that proposal too.
Another way I have looked at ewar instead of damage off and on the field is to equalize skill points. 6 or 7% damage isn't much but it can be looked at as a couple extra skill levels Besides equalizing damage, it can equalize noobs a little bit. This is just another perspective I'll share. Keep in mind my 7% is frigate versus frigate, cruiser versus cruiser. Your missle examples mix cruiser and frigate. We're not quite on equal footing yet to compare tracking links, target painters, webs, missiles and turrets.
If you look at ship base sigs and gun resolutions you'll start to see how that number skews as you mix ship classes. These kind of TP issues need to be made more public. To fix TP, It would have to bloom a target like a Microwarp! Maybe 300% and not 500 but I think MW bloom to much also. That's a general statement, not exact. At that kind of bloom they could be effective enough that people would learn how to use them. Then they could scale them back a bit. I agree TP are way off. 6 or 7 % versus 30% isn't even close. The problem then becomes stupidly effective when using missiles. I see your missile numbers, painter doesn't work bad on missiles. 30%? I'm back to a turret/painter problem.
You asked how I'd fly a Beli? I was envisioning flying it at longer range somewhat like a blackbird. I do consider the painter long range for a cruiser, I need to look at beli locking range suddenly. :) The reason I think dual bonus is alright is because I thought they dual bonused the Blackbird and Celestis. I'm good with that as long as T2 remains balanced right. Fragile cheap powerful ships are fun.
We have to work out numbers for your proposal and mine and try to come up with 30% effectiveness or thereabouts. Dual bonus both ways. TP/TL and TP/web. We have to match the ranges. I like brawlers too but then it needs to be faster. get a preferred range worked out and rework our numbers to find something that changes the field as much as other ewar. Lean toward helping turrets instead of Missiles just because Minmatar are predominately turrets.
Turret resolutions might need looked at to fix painters so they help turrets as much as missiles. Its just not right a turret race's ewar help missiles which are its racial enemy. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
371
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Posted - 2012.09.25 13:52:00 -
[360] - Quote
Muestereate wrote:
Everybody knows Sig bloom equals missile damage but it also means turret tracking.
Correct.
Wrong, or at least deeply confused. There is no difference between turret "chance to hit" and tracking, they're the same thing. There isn't a separate "to hit" chance, there is only tracking - target signature and gun resolution act as modifiers to gun tracking speeds. Painting a target by 30% has exactly the same effect as activating a 30% tracking tracking computer. |
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