Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Mr Trichter
Trichter Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 00:29:00 -
[1]
all you need to do is buy 3.8M of barrage s and sell it for great profit :D very tempting :D
my first thought was: as soon as i start buying the bullets in masses, he cancles his order but this would be too risky as a scammer
i think this order isn't fully covered (margin trading).
So my question is: what happens to the seller, if the buyer of this order (3.8M minimum amount) doesnt have enough money...
|
Zeta Zhul
Caldari Preemptive Paranoia
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 00:49:00 -
[2]
The buy puts in only enough to meet minimum escrow. You buy -his- ammo on sale. You try to sell to his buy order with the 3.8m minimum quantity. The buy order fails.
You're left holding the bag.
|
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 00:51:00 -
[3]
It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Vasaczk
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 01:53:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Zeta Zhul The buy puts in only enough to meet minimum escrow. You buy -his- ammo on sale. You try to sell to his buy order with the 3.8m minimum quantity. The buy order fails.
You're left holding the bag.
I haven't been playing long enough to know the details.
Will the transaction (selling to his BO) fail and you leave with goods or will you sell to the next best price?
|
Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 02:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Vasaczk
Originally by: Zeta Zhul The buy puts in only enough to meet minimum escrow. You buy -his- ammo on sale. You try to sell to his buy order with the 3.8m minimum quantity. The buy order fails.
You're left holding the bag.
I haven't been playing long enough to know the details.
Will the transaction (selling to his BO) fail and you leave with goods or will you sell to the next best price?
As I understand it, you'll just be left holding the goods. They won't be automatically sold to the next best buy price.
And no, Block, this isn't a scam.
|
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 02:38:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Block Ukx It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
As opposed to all the other scams... which are also completely legal and approved by CCP. ---
|
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 03:14:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Block Ukx It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
As opposed to all the other scams... which are also completely legal and approved by CCP.
There is a big difference with this scam as the seller has no idea if the order is valid or not. In all other scams, you can tell is a scam by looking at the numbers closely. In this one the victim has no way of telling is a scam.
BSAC Stock Exchange - EVE's only real-time stock exchange |
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 03:30:00 -
[8]
First, this is a scam:
Quote: noun /skam/ scams, plural
A dishonest scheme; a fraud
It is a fraudulent order that is impossible to fill.
There is a way to tell, if there is a minimum number, and the order is for significantly more than the normal price, its likely that its this type of scam.
As to how it works: The margin trading skill reduces the amount of money taken from you and put in escrow when you place and order. If you don't have enough money to complete a transaction, it fails.
So you buy their X hoping to sell it to a buy order, and are stuck with that X.
That's about it.
|
Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 07:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Block Ukx It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
As opposed to all the other scams... which are also completely legal and approved by CCP.
There is a big difference with this scam as the seller has no idea if the order is valid or not. In all other scams, you can tell is a scam by looking at the numbers closely. In this one the victim has no way of telling is a scam.
Compare this "scam" to any act of arbitrage in the game. How does anybody ever know, for certain, that a tasty buy order is still going to be there once they've bought some goods and hauled them over? You never do. It's a risk you always take when you engage in that kind of trading. To that end, it doesn't matter much if somebody intends to bait you into buying some really high-priced items, or a "legit" order merely gets filled before you can reach it with the goods. Or hell, if somebody just up and decides, randomly, that they want to take down their buy order just before you try to sell to it. None of these is, in reality, any "scammier" than the others.
|
Mr Trichter
Trichter Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 08:35:00 -
[10]
thanks Zeta Zuhl for the explanation.
to the discussion below:
yes, i too call it a scam: using the game mechanics to trick someone into buying stuff at a high price with a buy order that is not intended to work
anyway, it looks like someone fell for it. buy orders went down to about 100, so are you sure that trying to sell to such an order wont automatically sell to the other buy orders when it fails?
|
|
Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 08:55:00 -
[11]
This is an exploit and ccp should fix it..
Abusing margin trading skill to set an order limited in amount to make it a deadlock is exploit, and not working as intended.
If it had no limit on amount, sure it would be ok to use the margin trading, but then you could at least sell some of the volume to the order..
The order should at least get automatically cancelled when it fails to execute.
In general market features and functions could use a big overhaul, and its long over due..
Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams. |
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 08:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Block Ukx
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Block Ukx It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
As opposed to all the other scams... which are also completely legal and approved by CCP.
There is a big difference with this scam as the seller has no idea if the order is valid or not. In all other scams, you can tell is a scam by looking at the numbers closely. In this one the victim has no way of telling is a scam.
Send me all your ISK and I will send you back twice the amount.
Is there a way of telling it's a scam, and I'm not actually feeling generous and mean it seriously? No. Sounds too good to be true? Well, so does a buy order 300% above the average price in a well-stocked hub. ---
|
Mu-Shi Ai
The Chrysalis Group
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 09:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania This is an exploit and ccp should fix it..
Abusing margin trading skill to set an order limited in amount to make it a deadlock is exploit, and not working as intended.
If it had no limit on amount, sure it would be ok to use the margin trading, but then you could at least sell some of the volume to the order..
The order should at least get automatically cancelled when it fails to execute.
In general market features and functions could use a big overhaul, and its long over due..
Sorry, but you don't have the right to sell to a buy order, legit or not. A buy order could be taken down or fulfilled even just moments before you're able to fill it. Again, it's an inherent risk of arbitrage, and there's nothing materially different from a buy order that goes down because it was fulfilled, and a buy order that goes down because it was rigged to fail via Margin Trading. If there was some illegal exchange of goods or money in the process, then it most certainly would be an exploit, but nobody has to take the bait in this scheme.
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 12:14:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The order should at least get automatically cancelled when it fails to execute.
It does. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
|
Dethmourne Silvermane
Gallente Saiph Industries SRS.
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 14:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Caleb Ayrania The order should at least get automatically cancelled when it fails to execute.
It does.
I can only assume Caleb is trolling.
Though it would be interesting to see minimum margin be modified so that if you set an order for X widgets minimum, that the corresponding margin MUST cover at least X widgets.
|
Enoch Schuldenberg
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 19:52:00 -
[16]
I have another question actually: what if there is no order in bulk and people full fill the order gradually. How will the funds be used: first escrow funds will be used to cover the purchases and then it will take funds from the wallet or will it ask to cover the remaining of the order?
|
Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 21:52:00 -
[17]
borrowing against npc "bank" should have never ever been a skill. They've removed other skills, they should just return the SP invested and remove it from the skill set.
|
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 21:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Enoch Schuldenberg I have another question actually: what if there is no order in bulk and people full fill the order gradually. How will the funds be used: first escrow funds will be used to cover the purchases and then it will take funds from the wallet or will it ask to cover the remaining of the order?
It can't be filled gradually, that's what the minimum amount means.
With regular margin trading orders, the escrow is used up first so if you set up an order for several items. Its not possible to partially fill an order, by the way. If you have an order for say 10 widgets, with enough escrow and wallet to cover only 6 and someone tries to sell you 7, you won't buy 6, the order will fail and you'll be refunded the escrow.
|
Thoraemond
Minmatar Far Ranger
|
Posted - 2011.06.24 23:34:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dethmourne Silvermane Though it would be interesting to see minimum margin be modified so that if you set an order for X widgets minimum, that the corresponding margin MUST cover at least X widgets.
That, and the ISK in escrow should buy as many units as possible, rather than the whole order being cancelled without any units sold. I.e., only the "unfunded" part of the Buy Order should be cancelled at the time of the transaction.
To make this effective, having sufficient funds in escrow to buy the minimum quantity would need to be enforced after each transaction against the Buy Order, otherwise the scam would still be possible, and would just take a bit more effort to set up.
The down-side of this change would be that Margin Trading would no longer have any effect on the purchase of single expensive items, since the minimum required ISK in escrow would be the full amount of the order, but I think that's a reasonable trade-off to close this exploit-like use of a weak game mechanic.
|
Enoch Schuldenberg
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 00:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tutskii
It can't be filled gradually, that's what the minimum amount means.
With regular margin trading orders, the escrow is used up first so if you set up an order for several items. Its not possible to partially fill an order, by the way. If you have an order for say 10 widgets, with enough escrow and wallet to cover only 6 and someone tries to sell you 7, you won't buy 6, the order will fail and you'll be refunded the escrow.
Thanks Tutskii, that's what I wanted to know. Still, a follow up question: you aren't mandated to set up minimum sell conditions for such orders? So in the following example, you can still have people selling you 1 unit of an item and up till 6 of them you are fine, right?
|
|
Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 03:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Block Ukx
It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
It Is Not A Scam!
A scam in legal terms is a fraud. Many of the so called scams that happen in eve would be violations of law in most jurisdictions but not use of this skill in this way.
A scam occurs when a party promises one thing but does not deliver it or delivers something of less value. In any event it is done with intent and the seller fully expects to defraud the buyer in the bargain and does so with misrepresentations, witholding information that is required to be communicated about the goods he is selling or bogus promises.
Most often it is a single transaction, however it can be multiple transactions. This only occurs when the sellar represents, promises, or gaurantees a further transaction to a third party for more than what then selling price. i.e. "I am selling you this business and I have iron clad contracts with these customers worth this much $!" Meanwhile the seller knows his "customers" are insolvent.
When using Margin Trading the under funded buy order is a complete and separate transaction from the sell order and there is no promise of performance. The person who decides to buy from one order with the hope to then sell to another is not doing so based upon any representations made by the owners of those two orders even though they most likely are the same person. In fact, most often there is no communication at all. The buyer uses his own faulty research to decide the deal is profitable.
It is a person's own greed that clouds his reasoning and duty to use due diligence that makes this situation occur. Does this take advantage of stupid people? Yes! Is it a scam? No! Do I use it? Damned straight!
The person who finds himself loosing in this type of deal would be laughed out of any court I am aware of if he were to go complaining to be made whole. This is based on years litigating issues concerning contracts and transactions not just interweb speculation.
Fell free to continue calling it a scam though, I've been drinking heavily and do not mean to spoil your fun and misuse of terms.
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
Trader Hansen
Failure Assured
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 04:03:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Patri Andari
Originally by: Block Ukx
It's a legal scam approved by ccp!
It Is Not A Scam!
A scam in legal terms is a fraud. Many of the so called scams that happen in eve would be violations of law in most jurisdictions but not use of this skill in this way.
A scam occurs when a party promises one thing but does not deliver it or delivers something of less value. In any event it is done with intent and the seller fully expects to defraud the buyer in the bargain and does so with misrepresentations, witholding information that is required to be communicated about the goods he is selling or bogus promises.
Most often it is a single transaction, however it can be multiple transactions. This only occurs when the sellar represents, promises, or gaurantees a further transaction to a third party for more than what then selling price. i.e. "I am selling you this business and I have iron clad contracts with these customers worth this much $!" Meanwhile the seller knows his "customers" are insolvent.
When using Margin Trading the under funded buy order is a complete and separate transaction from the sell order and there is no promise of performance. The person who decides to buy from one order with the hope to then sell to another is not doing so based upon any representations made by the owners of those two orders even though they most likely are the same person. In fact, most often there is no communication at all. The buyer uses his own faulty research to decide the deal is profitable.
It is a person's own greed that clouds his reasoning and duty to use due diligence that makes this situation occur. Does this take advantage of stupid people? Yes! Is it a scam? No! Do I use it? Damned straight!
The person who finds himself loosing in this type of deal would be laughed out of any court I am aware of if he were to go complaining to be made whole. This is based on years litigating issues concerning contracts and transactions not just interweb speculation.
Fell free to continue calling it a scam though, I've been drinking heavily and do not mean to spoil your fun and misuse of terms.
You're using dishonesty (passive dishonesty - keeping your mouth shut - is still dishonesty), in order to profit at someone elses expense. Sorry bro, but it is a scam. Well within the confines of EVE game rules, and definitely playing on peoples stupidity and greed (as most scams do), but scam none-the-less. Lawyerese it all you like if it helps you sleep better at night.
|
Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 04:54:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Enoch Schuldenberg
Originally by: Tutskii
It can't be filled gradually, that's what the minimum amount means.
With regular margin trading orders, the escrow is used up first so if you set up an order for several items. Its not possible to partially fill an order, by the way. If you have an order for say 10 widgets, with enough escrow and wallet to cover only 6 and someone tries to sell you 7, you won't buy 6, the order will fail and you'll be refunded the escrow.
Thanks Tutskii, that's what I wanted to know. Still, a follow up question: you aren't mandated to set up minimum sell conditions for such orders? So in the following example, you can still have people selling you 1 unit of an item and up till 6 of them you are fine, right?
That's right.
As long as people sell you no more than you can afford at a time, its fine. Even if you have 0 isk and can't afford anything the order will be up as long as nobody tries to fill it.
As for it being a scam:
Quote: scam (skm) Slang n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle. tr.v. scammed, scam+ming, scams To defraud; swindle.
A fraudulent order that can't be filled is used as the basis for a sale. That is a scam.
|
Patri Andari
Caldari Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
|
Posted - 2011.06.25 21:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tutskii
As for it being a scam:
Quote: scam (skm) Slang n. A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle. tr.v. scammed, scam+ming, scams To defraud; swindle.
A fraudulent order that can't be filled is used as the basis for a sale. That is a scam.
It is not used as the basis of the sale. The sale stands on its own as does the buy order. The idiot that buys expecting to reap great rewards develops his own expectations, dumb as they are.
Patri
I'll Roshambo You For That Titan! |
DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
|
Posted - 2011.06.26 00:02:00 -
[25]
In the past you would receive a large penalty if one of your margin orders failed. I am talking 2005/6..
CCP removed it when they added the requirement for market skills, I BR this but I dont think they could verify it since it didnt use ammo. ----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! ! |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |