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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Kelnarn Shaelingrath
Caldari River-Rats in space The Ditanian Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:24:00 -
[2401]
Originally by: Sing Xing
You can already do this:
1: Make account 2: Buy plexes with real $$ 3: Sell plexes for ISK 4: Go to 'character bazaar' on the eve-o forum, buy character with 60m skillpoints (and is a titan pilot) 5: Buy titan 6: Win Eve
So, we've established that people can already do that. What is the problem then? Well, the problem is if CCP introduces stuff that you can ONLY buy for $$ and which gives in-game advantages. That means (among other things) that the industrialists gets screwed out of their ISK.
Here is the deal though, aside from an internal newsletter, which was designed to provoke thought and emotions among the employee. NOTHING suggests that they're going that way. In fact, the only thing we have heard is the opposite. Here is what was said 6 months ago (we have heard nothing that changes this): CCP Zulu quote snipped
I have to agree with this on many levels... the fact is (as Sabrina so eloquently stated) that a player can in fact buy game changing advantages with an RMT, I.E. buy GTC, convert to plex, sell plex, get uber stuffs....
The only caveat to this would be skillpoints, mystery (insert item name) Items that can't be built by players and sold/traded on the market as normal, and standings...
These are things that would affect overall gameplay in a detrimental fashion by circumventing the conventional ways and means of doing things.
in a Game that boasts a "player driven economy" as one of it's "finer" points, this undermines one of the greatest things about the game. Removing the ability for the industrialist community to continue their growth by adding things that are created by a script instead of by a player or player corp will be detrimental to gameplay over-all as those industrialist will eventually be forced into other lines of work and there will be a shortage of the items they manufacture today.
Where Standings (IE "respect" from a corp, agent, or faction) are derived from a player's "loyalty" to a corp or faction via mission running, the player earns that "respect" from the agents or faction by showing them their "loyalty" in doing so. Being able to "buy" that "respect" and turning "loyalty" into nothing more than a $$$ amount would in fact be a slap in the face of every player who relentlessly ground mission after mission, after mission in order to gain standing with an agent, corp, or faction.
Skillpoints?, In a way, I don't really have a big problem with CCP making some sort of an SP pack as long as it's structured in a way that it can't be abused... If structured similar to neural remaps, limited in the time, amount of, and costs for an Sp pack, I could see where it could help out a player without sending the entire game into a death spiral. for example, you can do a neural remap once a year and doing it properly will allow you to train certain skills faster based on their requirements. In essence, and in fact, a reasonable, limited SP pack would do the same thing, but only if setup properly from the beginning.
anyway, just my 0.02 isks worth on that aspect of it, but I'm honestly more concerned with the effects of this recent "upgrade" in content has had on player's computers and the over-all view that "eventually" we won't have a choice in it, than I am the theoretical discussions of how CCP could make more $ for themselves.
Granted, there are some serious concerns mentioned in these 80+ pages of posts and CCP should address them in a straight forward manner, but people also shouldn't jump the gun and/or go off half ****ed until the final word is out.
CCP?, I personally have 5 accounts that are paid for with real money, and I pay for my son's account, and my nephew's account too, we aren't unsubbing over a simple discussion, but if the game gets turned into nothing more than some money tree for a corporation who displays a propensity to ignore their user-base and who displays a disdain for that user-base, then it's likely 7 accounts gone too. o/ K.
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Amber Villaneous
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:34:00 -
[2402]
Originally by: Kelnarn Shaelingrath
I have to agree with this on many levels... the fact is (as Sabrina so eloquently stated) that a player can in fact buy game changing advantages with an RMT, I.E. buy GTC, convert to plex, sell plex, get uber stuffs....
You apparently do not understand economics on anything other than a very basic level.
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Glyken Touchon
Gallente Independent Alchemists
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:35:00 -
[2403]
Originally by: Hyperforce99 Actually I recall that Ishukonen watch scorpion wasn't more than a re-skin or a paint job. The ships statistics would have been identical. Players would still trade in a real scorpion battleship for the Ishukonen Watch Scorpion
Sorry to quote you again- I'm not picking on you- honest!
The NEX store can't do trade-ins yet. Despite this, CCP were going to add the ship to the options. CSM managed to talk them down to a limited offer for a week or so, and the forum rage seems to have put even that on hold.
The shop is one aspect that of EVE that I can guarantee will be iterated upon in every expansion, and probably more frequently, unlike most of the other things that are half-finished.
_________
Tippia's analysis http://meissaanunthiel.blogspot.com/2011/06/recent-ccp-****-ups.htmlMeissa's blog[/url |
Caiden Baxter
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:36:00 -
[2404]
Is the moneybin too shallow CCP ? Need a bigger one perhaps.
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4N631
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:36:00 -
[2405]
No. In what alternative world are you living? Real life comparison is wrong at so many level... This pretty much confirms it in my mind. The number 1 question being asked remains completely unanswered.á
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Kinori Kalrath
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:39:00 -
[2406]
Originally by: Black Dranzer
Quote: which by the way is one of our more smooth and successful expansions
No.
Hahaha, yeah i laughed when i saw that line, " real smooth and successful expansion mr ccp man! " :)
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NellieLovett
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:47:00 -
[2407]
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Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:50:00 -
[2408]
"You don't need to buy expensive clothes. In fact you don't need to buy any clothes. Whatever you choose to do reflects what you are and what you want others to think you are."
Even if you were to wear the most expensive jeans for sale anywhere do you expect PPL to think you are anything but a greedy bastard?
* Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. - CCP Ildoge
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Jake Maverick
Gallente X11 Assault and Recon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:50:00 -
[2409]
It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
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Shooter McGavvin
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:51:00 -
[2410]
Originally by: Hyperforce99
Originally by: Ranka Mei
Originally by: Eladaris
When CCP tried to introduce the Ishukone Watch Scorpion earlier this month as a ship produced from thin air, with no player involvement, for AUR... that didn't steal anything AT ALL from the players.
Sure, no one had to mine the minerals to produce the IW Scorpion, and no one had to buy the BPC and research it, nor mine the ice and spin the PI buttons to fuel that research.
No one had to load the raw materials into the manufacturing slots, nor drag it to a market hub, nor sell it (hopefully at a profit).
Instead a CCP dev simply had to pick a sexy new color scheme, and mass produce an unlimited number for profit.
Sure, we threw a fit and CCP promised to push back the deployment of the IW Scorpion for a few months... That didn't hurt us at all, we won!
But now... with this? CCP has well over 43,000 players happily playing Eve online as I write this. We lost, they won. The rest is just hang-wringing while the addicts try to come up with excuses to allow themselves to re-sub for another few years.
You're purposely blinding yourself to the reality of the day. The only reason there hasn't been a massive exodus yet, is that people are still awaiting an official reply regarding MT for ingame advantages. And that is PRECISELY the reason CCP haven't answered on the matter yet. When they start selling faction standing for Aurum, or super supercaps, or better-than-in-game battleships, or even regular economy-wrecking 'out of thin air' ships, I can guarantee you EVE will die shortly thereafter. And not even because people will run away screaming (many will, in fact); but simply because doing so will break the game on such a fundamental level, that, like Humptydumpty, it can't be put together again -- short of removing all 'Aurum for ingame advantages' trading.
Actually I recall that Ishukonen watch scorpion wasn't more than a re-skin or a paint job. The ships statistics would have been identical. Players would still trade in a real scorpion battleship for the Ishukonen Watch Scorpion
Selling paint jobs?
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Max Von Sydow
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:52:00 -
[2411]
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
'
The difference is that when you buy a char from another player using isk you got from selling a PLEX, the isk comes from and go to other players.
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Amber Villaneous
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:53:00 -
[2412]
Edited by: Amber Villaneous on 25/06/2011 16:54:36
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
You are obviously are a mouthbreather that cannot think beyond your next meal. Go learn about economics/trade and then come back.
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Jake Maverick
Gallente X11 Assault and Recon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:54:00 -
[2413]
Originally by: Max Von Sydow
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
'
The difference is that when you buy a char from another player using isk you got from selling a PLEX, the isk comes from and go to other players.
But... CCP were the only ones to get real money in EITHER case... so the only difference is that no anonymous player benefits from some other anonymous players greed? I Fail to see where that breaks anything. I just feel like we are making mountains out of molehills
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Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:54:00 -
[2414]
Originally by: NellieLovett
lol
His name was John Turbefield! Truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4YHvtEJgBc Best brief on the details. FREE HELICITY |
Constantinus Maximus
Paxian Expeditionary Force
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:57:00 -
[2415]
Originally by: Jake Maverick I Fail to see where that breaks anything. I just feel like we are making mountains out of molehills
This might help explain the new business model.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/yellow2/crimeCycle_1.jpg
His name was John Turbefield! Truth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4YHvtEJgBc Best brief on the details. FREE HELICITY |
Jake Maverick
Gallente X11 Assault and Recon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 16:58:00 -
[2416]
Originally by: Amber Villaneous Edited by: Amber Villaneous on 25/06/2011 16:54:36
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
You are obviously are a mouthbreather that cannot think beyond your next meal. Go learn about economics/trade and then come back.
Wow Amber, you are clearly a pargon of perspicacity!! That was the most intelligent and well thought out response I've ever read. Thank you for educating me. I'm sure flaming a random player on the forum will REALLY show CCP how angry you are at them... tool...
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Amber Villaneous
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:01:00 -
[2417]
Originally by: Jake Maverick
Originally by: Amber Villaneous Edited by: Amber Villaneous on 25/06/2011 16:54:36
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
You are obviously are a mouthbreather that cannot think beyond your next meal. Go learn about economics/trade and then come back.
Wow Amber, you are clearly a pargon of perspicacity!! That was the most intelligent and well thought out response I've ever read. Thank you for educating me. I'm sure flaming a random player on the forum will REALLY show CCP how angry you are at them... tool...
Thany you for your response, mostly for sucking up CCPs bandwidth and server space.
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Jake Maverick
Gallente X11 Assault and Recon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:03:00 -
[2418]
Originally by: Constantinus Maximus
Originally by: Jake Maverick I Fail to see where that breaks anything. I just feel like we are making mountains out of molehills
This might help explain the new business model.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/yellow2/crimeCycle_1.jpg
People do that now... They have been using ISK to make real money for the last... How long has EvE been live? Let's not grandstand about how we think it is opening an avenue for RMT criminals. And lets talk about the real issue. Everyone is angry because they expected these features to be part of the free expansion model, but CCP found a loophole in that model that lets them collect more money for game features. So everyone is angry that a Company is doing whats best for...a Company and not what people on this threadnaught want. Do I think CCP is right? No... do I think it's ultimately no big deal? yes... Do I think flaming this thread with insults about CCP employees will get what we want... no...
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Larik Olen
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:04:00 -
[2419]
They didn't answer our questions, they fobbed us off with this insulting devblog.
NO TO MICROTRANSACTIONS! SAVE EVE!
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Kalmanaka
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:06:00 -
[2420]
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
Thanks for totally failing to notice that the toon you bought was created by a player over a long period of time. It didn't appear out of thin air. The isk you used to buy that character didn't necessarily come from plex either. You could have earned it by playing the game and either way that isk goes to another player, not to CCP. Your analogy is full of fail. --------------------------------------- Estimate != Reality What you want != What you get You whine != Someone cares Learn to deal with it. -Abrazzar |
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Jake Maverick
Gallente X11 Assault and Recon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:09:00 -
[2421]
Originally by: Kalmanaka
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
Thanks for totally failing to notice that the toon you bought was created by a player over a long period of time. It didn't appear out of thin air. The isk you used to buy that character didn't necessarily come from plex either. You could have earned it by playing the game and either way that isk goes to another player, not to CCP. Your analogy is full of fail.
I didn't buy this toon. Or any other toon. I have sold one though. I've been playing since 2008 whan the salesman where I bought my car told me about it during the test drive. I've loved the game ever since. Sure I will be angry about the months I spent on Gal BS lvl 5 and all my T2 Large Turret based weapon skills etc... if someone can buy those SP for money.... ALL I am saying is that it's not too far from what they can do now anyway...
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Sparkamatron
Caldari Union Of EVE
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:09:00 -
[2422]
Nice blog. If you want to **** off your customers that is. Otherwise it was rather pointless and totally missed the point in my humbe opinion.
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1Of9
Gallente The Circle SOLAR WING
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:09:00 -
[2423]
I dont feel any sorry for ccp whatsoever.
this is the direct result of getting goons working in ccp.
enjoy.
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Meta2
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:14:00 -
[2424]
WOW CCP gets into the fashion industry... and the whole I am better than you because I am wearing a $ 1,000 pair of virtual jeans. Geeezz... I can think of dozens of game improvements that need to be made and instead we get this... fashion snootiness in a space game. If I want that I will go someplace with people in tuxedos while I am in tattered shorts and a biker shirt with my gut exposed.
How about some playability improvements? Like maybe a POS ship log? Ships coming/going and pilot...time in/time out... pretty basic but it would stop the BS about not knowing who took what and maybe stop the endless BS that thievery and thievery accusations cause.
How about making the bookmark system better? You would think that in a wormhole or empire space a ship could automatically transmit bookmarks to a POS central computer which would then upload those bookmarks to all corp ships within that system. Basic... but a major timesaver and eliminates a major annoyance of using cans for bookmarks. After all missions upload bm's to your neocom.
Geez... and the new currency is BS. A customization store is fine... but it should use ISK.
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Sakura Zendragon
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:17:00 -
[2425]
Edited by: Sakura Zendragon on 25/06/2011 17:17:23 Just saw this on twitter. It just keeps getting better and better...
Quote: *facepalm* // RT @Babar1050: RT This is a joke right? @LadyCasseris @helicityboson i.imgur.com/RqKdl.png #tweetfleet
Now you attack the honesty of your (former) customers?
For shame...
--- Donations from retiring capsuleers are welcome. |
SgtHartman
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:18:00 -
[2426]
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Jai Jones
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:18:00 -
[2427]
Did CCP really release this drivel? Are you deliberatelly trying to get people to un-sub... is that your "master" plan for dealing with fleet lag?
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Mars Theran
Caldari EVE Rogues EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:19:00 -
[2428]
Real world comparison makes perfect sense. If it's such an expensive item, (and btw, they sell aluminum jewelry in some places for hundreds of dollars, to the rich and extravagant), then less people will own one. It has to do with availability, and results in only the truly wealthy forking out their shillings for it, while other people scoff or scorn at the thought.
Could use a minor price nerf, but if they don't it doesn't really matter. It's what separates the truly rich, from the common folk; things which despite being of comparable quality, cost a great deal more.
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Sanadoon1
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:25:00 -
[2429]
I am very concerned and upset with CCP as a company. Their attempts at public relations have been a joke and they seem to enjoy hurting and frustrating their customers. Unfortunately, they also seem unwilling to pay attention to any comments or opinions from their customers. The only question I have at this moment is what can I do, as an individual, to make my voice heard? This post probably won't be noticed or cared about. CCP has repeatedly shown that the CSM's opinions are ignored, subscription cancellation hurts me as much as them. What can I do? Should I write a letter? Go down to the office in Atlanta and make somebody deal with a person face to face?
CCP, tell me what can I do so that you listen to your customers!
CCP Zulu's dev blog also shows extreme disconnect with your players and the leaked email shows how little you care about them. I would be ashamed to break the trust of all these people and by all the frustration and anger that you have personally caused.
I am angry and looking for a way to show CCP that I am so.
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RAW23
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Posted - 2011.06.25 17:28:00 -
[2430]
Edited by: RAW23 on 25/06/2011 17:30:46
Originally by: Jake Maverick It just occured to me you can Already buy SP for real $$
Step 1 Start an account Step 2 Buy a mess of PLEX Step 3 Sell PLEX Step 4 Buy a High SP toon from someone else
::looks around:: games doesn't look to be broken by that yet.... And if people can use AUR to buy special ammo or ships... I am sure those will land on the open isk market eventually so just do a couple more missions, buy it, and be happy... OR better yet, just start a corp whose purpose is to war dec and gank everyone who you see in an AUR ship <- (totally ok By EvE's rules) AS for CQ I Friggen love it, but thats because my PC is fairly good I get about 45 FPS in my CQ. I can imagine people with min spec PC's would like the old hangar back... CCP, can we get that option please before one of these fine people have an anurism?
Selling plex introduces an input into the economy that has no ingame effect, the plex, and that disappears from the game with use. So the introduction and use of plex does not add or remove anything else from the economy. Isk that is already in the economy will circulate when plexes are bought and sold ingame but the amount of isk in the game remains the same. Now, this does allow people to spend real life cash and buy ingame advantages BUT it does so in a way that doesn't introduce alien elements into the (relatively) closed system of the economy. In addition, plex does something that could not be done in any other way and is, thus, a special case. The purpose of plex is to allow people to play for free and to limit the profitability of rmt and botting. There is no non-MT way of reaching those goals so most people are willing to accept that people will be able to buy an advantage as a necessary evil in exchange for the positives that plex provides for the community.
MT for vanity, power and convenience, on the other hand, is not the only way to introduce those additional items into the game. They could equally well be introduced as normal items, so there is no claim of a necessary evil here. In addition, the production of items out of thin air introduces alien elements into the economy, elements that could, potentially, have ingame effects but that are not built by players (and the current batch seem to be indestructible as well). A third issue is that of resource distribution: not only are CCP introducing something that is not a necessary evil that is balanced by providng something extra to the community, they are actually introducing this new content at the expense of the community since development time and effort are being spent on these features rather than non-MT features. And this leads onto a fourth point that once CCP have decided to monetise power and convenience they then have reasons to REMOVE functionality from the core game in order to sell it back for extra money (for instance, the removal of the ability to store more than 50 ship fittings has been removed but the CCP newsletter discusses selling precisely that for people who will pay more).
Edit - But personally I think most of the rage is due to CCP's attitude towards its player base rather than the specific features being implemented. Players used to love CCP as a company but their contempuous arrogance has turned that love to hate over a period of time for many people. This has all been brewing for a while and the stuff around the Incrna release is the straw(s) that broke the camel's back.
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