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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.28 11:48:00 -
[271]
Originally by: blah blah Kugisa It's considered desirable to release a working versions of the software as early as possible, because the user input from real users is vastly superior to that gathered using in-house testing.
In game development, however, there is the desire to not release changes that are going to significantly impact upon the game. Such as, for example, altering the manufacture of Control Towers and forgetting to remove NPC sales.
Quote: In the end the code would need to be refactored into some generic code base that would be used by both the nex and lp store anyways. It's always going to be more expensive to make the wrong solution first, and then replace with the right solution, if you would have started working on the right solution from the start... doing the same work twice is not the way to do it.
That's what I would do - refactor the LP store code, then implement the NeX. In this case it appears that CCP has significant external pressure (finding an extra $6M before the end of the year) to get NeX implemented a quickly (and dirtily) as possible, iterate on it later to make it work properly.
Here is where we encounter the realities of corporate life. In my real world job, I've been refactoring some code for almost two years. That code was a mess, it didn't have any tests or documentation. Various important details such as IP addresses and passwords were hard coded. I've spent two years refactoring it, adding tests, writing documentation. That's almost $200k the company has spent on my salary. And today I found out that the reason people were getting frustrated with me for taking so long is that the system services less than 500 customers, each worth about $200 pa. Whoops. My work will take 1000 customer-years to recoup, ignoring cost of providing services and support.
Sometimes "The Right Way" isn't the best way.
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
Marckov
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:03:00 -
[272]
Originally by: JitaBum You seem to be seriously missing the point here
1) They can buy ships, without taking part in the eve economy
It's probably going to be the ability to pay $100 for a gold plated version of a ship worth $5 in isk.
And unfitted. So even if your small gang chases another small gang into a station having destroyed their cruisers it's not likely that they could undock 5 minutes later in gold scorpions and pwn you.
Quote: 2) There is talk of the ability to buy skillpoints
If you suddenly want 80 million skill points scroll down to the character bazaar and buy such a character.
Quote: 3) Gold ammo, store exclusives... who know what else?
Gold ammo is not going to happen. Even if you don't believe CCP Zulu now that they've come out and stated it as policy they have to stick with it or face more player revolt.
Store exclusives don't mean anything since you can get aurum for plex that you can pay for in isk. It wouldn't make sense to have an item you can only get by buying it in the store since anyone can buy aurum for isk.
If you wanted to fight this you needed to fight against the plex system. That's where pay to win was introduced. This is just a variation on that theme.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:31:00 -
[273]
Edited by: Akita T on 28/06/2011 12:34:41
Originally by: Mara Rinn Now let's assume that it was CCP's intention to simply release the "Gold scorpion from the ether" for a month or two until they got their code base sorted out. That would mean the "Gold scorpion from BPC" or "Gold scorpion from trade-in" would have to wait until the next iteration. Oh yes. I went there You see, once the items are out on the NeX, the pressure is off. The next priority becomes releasing the Dust 514 link, extra zones of the stations, and getting the multi-avatar environments working. Before you know it two whole years have passed fixing game-breakingly-bad problems in Dust/EVE and avatar interactions, before anyone actually has time to revisit the NeX-as-LP-store idea and refactor the LP store code to be usable in the NeX.
THAT particular problem was solved even before the leaked PDF crapstorm hit the rotating propellers. The conclusion was "no ships from NEX until we can make it either spit out BPCs or consume a base ship or other items" (heavily paraphrased). Obviously, all actually relevant info about that got quickly drowned in a brown haze of flying flaming refuse as soon as the "Greed is Good?" thing showed up, and it hasn't gotten much better from then on, with additional fuel added to the fire with each subsequent "leak" or "miscommunication".
So, anyway, from where I'm standing, this particular concern of yours is not a concern at all, since it's based on obsolete information. Or are you maybe saying you don't trust them to hold THAT promise ? Or that we should pre-emptively junkblock them on any little thing they might want to introduce out of general principles even if the item would not require LP-shop-like functionality until the NEX-as-LP-store is 100% functional as intended?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Seetesh
Caldari The Resident Haunting Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:34:00 -
[274]
Akita needs a chill pill. Relax its ok :)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:35:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Seetesh Akita needs a chill pill. Relax its ok :)
80% of the forum posters of the past week need a chill enema... _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Lucilia Mercapone
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:28:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Marckov
Quote: 2) There is talk of the ability to buy skillpoints
If you suddenly want 80 million skill points scroll down to the character bazaar and buy such a character.
Quote: 3) Gold ammo, store exclusives... who know what else?
[...]
Store exclusives don't mean anything since you can get aurum for plex that you can pay for in isk. It wouldn't make sense to have an item you can only get by buying it in the store since anyone can buy aurum for isk.
[...]
First of there is a huge difference between buying a 80mio SP character and buying 80mio SP. Someone had to spend years to get that 80mio SP character while you could buy 80mio SP in a second. Also right now the age of a character is somewhat of an upper limit of SP that he can have. That's intel.
Store exclusives would be huge. I don't think you understand the diabolic brilliance (it's a quote) of the plex->aur system. Each item that's only available through NEX even if it can be sold through the usual market removes PLEX from the game or puts $$$ in their pocket. If they add a few must have items either the plex price goes through the roof or more players have to buy GTCs.
The removal of excess plex can be a good thing (especially for CCP ;-) but nobody knows how far CCP will go, not even CCP.
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AxilX
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Posted - 2011.06.29 15:46:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Akita T ONLY if the equivalent AUR price of a new item in the NEX ends up similar to (or god forbid lower than) the equivalent pre-existing item.
This confuses me... wouldn't any existing item equivalent absolutely have to cost the same or less in AUR? We can already buy PLEX, trade it in for ISK and buy officer items. Buying an officer item for more than it would cost in PLEX to get it currently would be unbelievable stupid. Sure that describes a portion of the playerbase, but do you really think the business model would be designed to target only the players too stupid to figure out how to buy things with real money already?
Now i don't think they're going to undercut the player market either, at least not intentionally as that would cause substantial damage to whatever sectors of the economy they mirrored, and the prices would just crash below the new ceiling anyway.
I believe any items they add must be unique to the nexus. That's where the fear comes in. Selling skillpoints seems one of the most profitable places to go. Personally though i don't have an issue with SP for sale. You're not competeing with the player economy, and players do nothing at all to earn them as it is. Skillpoints have been essentially sold to you at a steady rate for 15$ a month since you've started playing the game.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.30 17:50:00 -
[278]
Originally by: AxilX
Originally by: Akita T ONLY if the equivalent AUR price of a new item in the NEX ends up similar to (or god forbid lower than) the equivalent pre-existing item.
This confuses me... wouldn't any existing item equivalent absolutely have to cost the same or less in AUR? We can already buy PLEX, trade it in for ISK and buy officer items. Buying an officer item for more than it would cost in PLEX to get it currently would be unbelievable stupid.
Look at all the people that bought a monocle. It does absolutely nothing AND also looks horrible. Yet quite a few people bought one. Never bet AGAINST somebody doing something monumentally stupid (from the standpoint of ISK efficiency), you'll end up losing eventually.
Fact is, you WANT them to cost noticeably more, so very few people would bother with them, so that the normal market for that item would not be affected much, if at all. However, you need to offer some non-game-stats-related bonus for having it (like, say, slightly different animations or whatever) to signal that "look at me, I'm so freaking rich, I wasted a lot of cash on this even if I could have bought the cheaper one".
Some people just love the bling... or better said, love to SHOW OFF the bling. Even if the bling is actually no big deal.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:04:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Skex Relbore on 30/06/2011 18:05:49 "A sneed is something that everyone needs" The old Onceler.
Honestly I think CCP should probably pick up a copy of "The Lorax" because they seem to have missed it's lesson at some point in their lives.
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Xenomorph XI
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Posted - 2011.06.30 18:25:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Sakura Ren Fenikkusu
Quote: And why was it put on hold?
It was put on hold after CSM comments suggested it wasn't the best thing to do. IMO, even a short-span on the NeXus could inject market breaking amount of minerals.
Honestly, it's CCP's game. There is nothing stopping them from putting an item on the AURUM store with Officer like stats; however, this requires a bit of faith on our part that they will not do something like that, and trust them to keep the balance. No reason to believe they wouldn't keep in balanced, and least not intentionally.
I think your missing the OP's point. The point is you can already use MT's to buy officer like items. Just buy/sell plexes.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.30 22:38:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Akita T on 30/06/2011 22:39:06
Originally by: Xenomorph XI I think your missing the OP's point. The point is you can already use MT's to buy officer like items. Just buy/sell plexes.
Only within certain limits, of course.
If you introduce any particular item in the NEX that after ISK->PLEX->AUR translation (plus whatever else instead of AUR might be required) comes up at roughly the same ISK pricepoint as the equivalent "regular" item that already exists in the game with the same stats (IF such an item exists), then it would start affecting the market of that particular item. As long as NEX items come up far more expensive (in ISK equivalent) or do not have any even remotely comparable counterparts, then you're fine.
If however the NEX item is even slightly better than anything that exists and it's roughly the same price, then all of the people complaining about "P2W" would start having a good point to rage about. But not before then. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.01 18:03:00 -
[282]
Somebody (which I supposed wanted to remain anonymous) sent me an eve-mail, and my response to it makes sense in here too.
___
Let me start by saying that at this point, AS FAR AS I KNOW, there is no solid plan for the introduction of any item that's actually better than anything else in game, let alone similar in stats to any actually valuable one... and no plans to go ahead with "spawning out of nothing" either, which have all been shelved (and items that may already have counterparts are FOR NOW supposed to eat up the identical stats item they would "vanity-enhance").
Even if the newly introduced item would have stats equal to the best officer item and would only require a base T1 version to be "traded in", you can STILL make it NOT affect the rest of the game's economy by simply making it cost noticeably more (after translation back to ISK) than the corresponding pre-existing item has ever costed while using the best possible ISK-AUR exchange rate.
So, for instance, say a specific officer item sells for 2 bil ISK - the corresponding AUR item at current exchange rates would have to come up costing 4 bil ISK, or 5 bil ISK, or why not, even up to 20 bil ISK. Yes, this would mean that it will seldom get any sales at all, and as such, not affect the economy. But WHEN it will get a sale, even if only for the fact the purchaser wants to have the convenience of "getting the item NOW, and where he wants it", it would be a huge one-lump sum in CCP's lap.
The alternative you propose (namely, consuming an identical-stats item in the process) will mean you can only ever realistically charge a token sum of AUR for that, and you could need hundreds or maybe thouands of sales to come close to the profit of a single sale. And then, it wouldn't really be a status symbol anymore, and very few would bother buying it.
On top of it all, it would not capitalize on the "convenience impulse buy" mechanic - you COULD make it cost a truckload of ISK-equivalent, but then it would have even less sales as it would have had if it didn't consume the equivalent item while costing extra.
However, you can always have BOTH options available.
You can have an item have two separate NEX offers. One of the offers carries a moderate AUR cost and calls for the consumption of the identical stats item. The other offer carries an insane AUR cost and only calls for the consumption of a T1 item.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Jaroslav Unwanted
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Posted - 2011.07.01 21:21:00 -
[283]
Just an bump. Since i consider those points as valid.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.09 18:26:00 -
[284]
I, for one, welcome our new microtransaction overlords. So I can blow them up into tiny smithereens with stuff that cost me the equivalent of 1/10 of what they spent, and all of it in ISK, no cash.
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Grey Griff
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Posted - 2011.07.09 18:40:00 -
[285]
Edited by: Grey Griff on 09/07/2011 18:41:09 there are already blobs of titans, so price is not the factor to stop spreading of imbalanced MT items, it will be just matter of time |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.07.09 18:44:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Akita T I, for one, welcome our new microtransaction overlords.
I don't. I could never support Microtransactions of any sort in Eve.
inb4 "So what do you call plex eh?" IsosmartIoutwittedyou bull****. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.09 18:57:00 -
[287]
Originally by: Grey Griff there are already blobs of titans, so price is not the factor to stop spreading of imbalanced MT items, it will be just matter of time
Highlighted the only ACTUAL problem. |
Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.07.09 19:00:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Grey Griff there are already blobs of titans, so price is not the factor to stop spreading of imbalanced MT items, it will be just matter of time
Highlighted the only ACTUAL problem.
It's a matter of perspective, Akita. There is no single true and false statement among the following:
Microtransactions are a bad idea.
Imbalanced microtransactions are a bad idea. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.09 19:07:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Grey Griff there are already blobs of titans, so price is not the factor to stop spreading of imbalanced MT items, it will be just matter of time
Highlighted the only ACTUAL problem.
It's a matter of perspective, Akita. There is no single true and false statement among the following: Microtransactions are a bad idea. Imbalanced microtransactions are a bad idea.
Sure there are. The first is false, the second is true. Microtransactions, as long as they're balanced in such a way to not interfere with regular ingame activities and just provide lazy people with hefty disposable incomes (be it in ISK or cash) options to do something a bit easier but at far greater cost, that's a win-win situation. Imbalanced microtransactions however (those that affect the gameplay negatively in a significant fashion), those are a bad idea, period. |
Grey Griff
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Posted - 2011.07.09 19:12:00 -
[290]
MT items cannot be balanced, cus noone will buy such items then, unless they vanity and for collection |
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.09 19:21:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Grey Griff MT items cannot be balanced, cus noone will buy such items then, unless they vanity and for collection
So basically your only argument is that CCP should only sell vanity items (which using your logic would NOT sell) because if they would sell non-vanity items, in order to make them sell, they would have to price them in such a way as to be "imbalanced" for that particular price ? And you don't see any problem with that argument ?
Here's the thing - you CAN sell stuff that's mostly vanity but still above basic level of performance (as long as it does not go above the best performance level available, that gets tougher to manage) - and you can sell it for prices that are significantly above the corresponding performance "non-vanity" item.
Even if you do introduce an item that performs ever so slightly better than the best performing in-game item, by pricing it so high that it goes way above the best in-game item as far as price goes will ensure two things - one, that it will be purchased in such small quantities that it WOULD NOT affect the regular market for lower metalevel items AND two, that whenever somebody does buy one of those, that's a truckload of cash. And somebody WILL buy it, eventually. Even if just to flaunt his riches. Be it actual riches or virtual riches. But most likely virtual riches. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.07.09 19:24:00 -
[292]
Originally by: Kurj Valdoria You call him ...
Entity
This! |
Grey Griff
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Posted - 2011.07.09 19:29:00 -
[293]
Edited by: Grey Griff on 09/07/2011 19:34:52 Edited by: Grey Griff on 09/07/2011 19:32:15 Edited by: Grey Griff on 09/07/2011 19:31:45 i don't talk about price, im talking about characteristics of such items, if they will be balanced there will be no need in them cus non mt ingame items just do well |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.07.09 20:03:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Grey Griff i don't talk about price, im talking about characteristics of such items, if they will be balanced there will be no need in them cus non mt ingame items just do well
Ok, let's put it this way.
Say you ever want to introduce a AUR-purchased NEX version of a Ballistic Control System that turns your missiles visually only into MIRV warheads, or maybe leaving some nice traces, or both.
You COULD make it have the stats of a T1 BCS, sure. But then, what would be the point in bothering with that in combat situations, when you could just fit a T2 one or a CN one and get a lot more benefit from that - effectively, the vanity item is actually a PENALTY item compared to what you'd normally use. So you make it have better stats. But how much better ? T2 ? CN ? Officer level ? More than anything that exists ? Up to that very last part, you shouldn't have anything against it, and we'll get back to that in a short while.
Yes, you also could make it "eat up" any BCS and a bit of AUR and spit out the corresponding "MIRV/trace" vanity version, but then again, you wouldn't make too much cash out of it, not noticeably more than the T1 or T2 version.
So what you do is make it "eat up" an inferior metalevel BCS and a TRUCKLOAD of AUR, and ramp up the vanity effects depending on output metalevel (T2 vanity just traces eating up a T1, CN vanity just MIRV eating up a T2, officer vanity both traces and MIRV and eating up a CN, for instance). How much of a truckload of AUR ? Enough to make it more expensive in ISK than the corresponding performance item is ever likely to cost. THAT is how you implement what is basically a very expensive and mostly just vanity item that does sell for a lot of AUR - and sell it will.
So, back to the issue of "what if we introduce one that's EVER SLIGHTLY BETTER than anything that exists" ? As long as it does eat up not only a lot of AUR but also one of the best items that already exists (on top of, say, getting thicker traces and more MIRV projectiles tracing different flight patterns - still mostly just a visual difference), what exactly would be the problem with THAT ?
Sure, if you introduce something that's radically better than anything that exists *AND* you make it not consume anything except AUR *AND* you also make it cost just a bit of AUR as opposed to a huge truckload, yeah, sure, I would agree that THAT would be a big problem. But as you see, it doesn't need to be EITHER of those things, or it could be a lot of those things and still not be such a big deal - just not all of them at the same time (especially not the last one). |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.07.09 20:29:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Akita T Somebody (which I supposed wanted to remain anonymous) sent me an eve-mail, and my response to it makes sense in here too.
___
<snip>
You can have an item have two separate NEX offers. One of the offers carries a moderate AUR cost and calls for the consumption of the identical stats item. The other offer carries an insane AUR cost and only calls for the consumption of a T1 item.
I think you and I were talkint to devs with simular Ideas. thats why I posted my thread earlyer. |
Qwyp
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Posted - 2011.07.09 20:31:00 -
[296]
ive been microtransacting and rmt'ing since the beginning before plexes
using time card forum
to buy ships, trading money for officer mods via cash->gtc->mod
so what?
those that wanna waste money go fer it
that's what a mmorpg is all about, wasting money
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Grey Griff
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Posted - 2011.07.09 20:42:00 -
[297]
Edited by: Grey Griff on 09/07/2011 20:45:37 Edited by: Grey Griff on 09/07/2011 20:44:42 if characteristics of such items will be only slightly better then there are a few possibilties: 1) price in aurum is not high enough, and they force out their non mt counteparts, cus in pvp any advantage matters 2) the price high enough for only few to use them, ok, those who can by them will by them for visual effects so what for mess with balance and charcteristics? 3) even if price high enough and their charcteristics slightly better then non mt items it will be only matter of time to for them to force out their non mt counter part from the game cus in pvp any advantage matters
4)and there is no problem with only vanity effects or visuals, unless ccp wont become too greed and forget to develope the game itself beyond it vanity part |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.07.09 20:52:00 -
[298]
the Biggest problem with Vanity only items in a PvP game is they make you a target.
There are ways you can use that to your advantage.
Lets just say you watch for when FCs STOP calling primary on you for having a monical in your portrait. . .(note if you did not realise this by now... see my sig)
ok back to the subject at hand.
the other Big problem with Vanity items is that they are not realy consumable right now. that means once they are bought your stuck with them. this means that its a one time sale on CCP part. this has its own problem.
WOW has constantly been adding TO the Vanity pet-mount store (theres now 2 mounts 8 pets, 2 that also come with plushy dolls, theres also 11 mounts and 9 pets that are from the TCG (gee here is an idea since they are so hot to copy what WoW does, add IGloot codes to the next EVE TCG!) that people now expect to see moved eventualy to the Petshop, and about a dozen pets and mount modles that have turned up that are still not in game that may or may not be put into the marketplace.
Ironicaly the only real way to prevent CCP from haveing to endlessly push out crap to people who probably dont want it. . . is to somehow increase the consumability of said items
and the best way to do that is to make it so that people will realy, REALY want to shoot at said item.
the best way to do that? make it a Goldish (as in the Terry prachet meaning of the word) ship!
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Mimimko
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Posted - 2011.07.09 20:56:00 -
[299]
Originally by: Kaethe Kollwitz what do you call a golden ibis with a damage modifier of 15,000 bought for aurum?
what do you call a golden sov change with no shooting or time paid for with aurum?
what do you call a golden caldari state standings option with no work involved?
i could go on...
You're imagination going wild?
Seriously this kind of speculation is irritating. There is NO indication CCP will ever go that far. It's all a ridiculous "slippery slope" argument. They said they have no plans for non-vanity items. There's no real point in calling them liars other than the personal satisfaction of a conspiracy theorist, i.e. "Everbody R SHEEPLE except me! I'm special!"
There's always a chance CCP or any other company will made a horrible decision and drive away their customers. However these changes people fear are obviously NOT in the works. CCP chose right on that particular point. The mistakes they did make are still recoverable. |
Yseri
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Posted - 2011.07.09 21:08:00 -
[300]
Wow, you people are so high on your horses that you can't see the earth anymore. While most of your points are completely valid, you amount to what, 5% of the player base? Granted, an important 5% (vets provide a lot of good content), but 95% of players, you know, the ones that don't visit the forums, don't care about the controversy and just want to play the game once in a while would gladly buy uber ships, ammo, implants and so on to speed up their progress. And they are better customers for CCP, since most of them don't have the time to grind isk for PLEXes so they just buy game time for $. Casual gamers are the future, deal with it. Hell, I'm 2 years and many, many hours in the game (that is to say: not a casual player) and I'd gladly buy SP for $/PLEX/whatever to check out other paths without waiting another two years looking at the damn blue bar in the skill queue.
So, in short - MT, P2W and such are the direction of MMO industry and it would be weird if CCP wouldn't follow sooner or later. That's what people expect and that's what they'll get. |
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