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Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
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Posted - 2011.07.08 22:19:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 08/07/2011 22:24:42 Signed.
Gallente ships, not only hybrids, need a thorough looking at. The blaster platforms have been rendered useless by successive buffs to other weapons systems (here's looking at you, autocannons), and nerfs to modules that Gallente ships were dependant on. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.08 23:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills? T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
WTF do you think? I have only been here since fricken 2005. Of course I used t2 modules and faction ammo.And yes, kick ass drone skills too. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.08 23:49:00 -
[33]
Hey guys. Remember when the Deimos was a good ship? I don't either. Blasters have needed love for awhile, especially with various drone changes that have come in that allowed to compensate for the lack. The other guns also didn't have the boosts they now have. What allowed the Gallente to stay competitive were their drone ships. Especially setups like the Nos Domi. Then Nos got the nerf bat. Neut Domis are still nasty but it really hurt the last fall back for Gallente pilots. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.07.09 00:00:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14
Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it.
That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game.
The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately. |
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.07.09 00:32:00 -
[35]
Now here's something I can get behind....stop letting sentries shoot drones. Screws -10s. |
AMatay
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Posted - 2011.07.09 00:35:00 -
[36]
Edited by: AMatay on 09/07/2011 00:36:04 Edited by: AMatay on 09/07/2011 00:35:36 if anyone interested in getting gallente some attention could support this thread in the csm forums we may get heard, it has a fair ammount of support behind it already http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1451393&page=8 |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.09 00:44:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 00:45:24
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14
Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it.
That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game.
The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately.
It is here that I have to, to some degree, disagree with your opinion. Although I am certain that some players maybe able to cope and use versatile builds to compensate. It is imperative to view the disadvantages of the system. It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance.
I spent quite some time putting together those spreadsheets to show the differences of our paper math. Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills.
"Oh well, EFT says with perfect skills and overheating a megathron can get in range to apply this much dmg." - many arguments... Load that up in a skill plan for me, all level 5. Then explain to me how that is viable when a large percentage of pvp'ers don't have it. Or if they do, they are not wasting that much SP flying anything under a capital for pvp.
TL;DR - The purpose of this change isn't to solely effect those with years of training in hybrids. The main goal is to make leveling and using them from start to finish viable. |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.09 00:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kumq uat
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills? T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
WTF do you think? I have only been here since fricken 2005. Of course I used t2 modules and faction ammo.And yes, kick ass drone skills too.
One should not think so highly of themselves, thereby imputing ass holyness upon themselves thinking other people can read their minds. |
Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.07.09 01:03:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Digital Messiah It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance.
Oh, you got me wrong there. It wasnt meant that way, I should probably have elaborated on that a bit.
The main issues with hybrid turrets and their platforms in combat is that the type of tactics they traditionally use is not well-suited for the current game environment.
You cannot change that fact without completely breaking their flavour, unless player mindset changes. That does mean the mindset of both the hybrid user, as well as the mindset of his targets.
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills.
Veterans typically complain about old tactics not working well anymore, something I am guilty of aswell. That doesnt mean this is necessarily a bad thing though.
As far as the skill question goes, I fully agree there. Hybrid platforms have insane demand in fitting skills, most of my fits require completely maxed out fitting skills and even then some sacrifice is there somewhere. The fits themselves do work, even in the new era, but are not very accessibly to the new player. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.09 01:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 00:45:24
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14
Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it.
That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game.
The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately.
It is here that I have to, to some degree, disagree with your opinion. Although I am certain that some players maybe able to cope and use versatile builds to compensate. It is imperative to view the disadvantages of the system. It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance.
I spent quite some time putting together those spreadsheets to show the differences of our paper math. Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills.
"Oh well, EFT says with perfect skills and overheating a megathron can get in range to apply this much dmg." - many arguments... Load that up in a skill plan for me, all level 5. Then explain to me how that is viable when a large percentage of pvp'ers don't have it. Or if they do, they are not wasting that much SP flying anything under a capital for pvp.
TL;DR - The purpose of this change isn't to solely effect those with years of training in hybrids. The main goal is to make leveling and using them from start to finish viable.
I have those skills at 5 and it is still crap compared to everything else. |
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.09 01:55:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kumq uat I have those skills at 5 and it is still crap compared to everything else.
Missiles are almost on par in pvp I hear. Back to the topic at hand. CCP, work on this now please. I promise we won't mind if you take time off of making more NEX items. |
AMatay
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Posted - 2011.07.09 04:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
really hope this issue is goign to get some attention, OP says that he recieved comfirmation that it will be, i would liek to know where this comformation is comign from so i could see it myself, and know what kind of time line were looking at for changes to be made |
P42ALPHA
Gallente nul-li-fy Usurper.
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Posted - 2011.07.09 05:19:00 -
[43]
When it comes to frigs, destroyers, and cruisers I can only speak for Hybrids.
That said, all maxed out skill for hybrids, then some basic skills for Projectile. I have dumped the thought of ever using my blasters again. T1 Auto's make my blasters look like civilian guns without ammo(punt) |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.09 05:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 05:34:03
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
really hope this issue is goign to get some attention, OP says that he recieved comfirmation that it will be, i would liek to know where this comformation is comign from so i could see it myself, and know what kind of time line were looking at for changes to be made
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1531757
I got directed to a response by CCP, that they are on a list. And so are sub capital hulls... When that item on that list gets addressed is what worries me.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1525620&page=5 ^ quotes origination. |
AMatay
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:31:00 -
[45]
wow had to search through that second thread to find a little mention of hybrids, and i couldnt find it at all in the first thread maybe because its 3:30am here and words get blurry when theres that many of them. dosnet seem to be top priority with them at all, but hopefully we can get some fires burnign under them to get thigns done, as lookign through forum historys and the amount of threads that have been made over this issue its clear to see the attention is long overdo.
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Speaker4 theDead
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:37:00 -
[46]
If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
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Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
Still waiting for you to make a point about something. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.09 06:54:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kumq uat
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
Still waiting for you to make a point about something.
I have to agree with Kumq uat here, you haven't given a reason to why you like or dislike these proposed changes. Or for that matter given an opinion in relevance to this thread. I am sorry you are leaving eve, and you have decided to un-subscribe. But please join one of the many, many, I quit threads, instead of polluting this one. |
Cofidre
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Posted - 2011.07.09 08:28:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11
Quote:
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject.
Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage! |
Centis Adjani
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Posted - 2011.07.09 09:13:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Centis Adjani on 09/07/2011 09:14:27 Would make me a bit happy if the backlash of the turret cycle become fixed first.
If I Press F1, F2, F3, ... to stop shooting, the cycle dont stop imediate. It cycles further on for about 1/3 of a new cycle until it stops and I can initiate shooting a new target. This always bothers me.
And additional the waittime of 10 seconds for reloading/switching ammo bothers.
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.09 09:25:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Cofidre Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11
Quote:
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject.
Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage!
Antimatter Charge L kin-28 HP therm-20 HP base shield-32.8 base armor-34.0 Multifrequency LEM-28 HP therm-20 HP base shield-44.0 base armor-24.2 EMP L EM-36 Exp-8 kin-4 therm-0 base shield-41.6 base armor-24.6
Now let us compare dmg mods with the most powerful large turret selections. Blasters Neutron Blaster Cannon II Large/18.2 GJ/7,200+10,000m/7.875 s/4.2x/0.0433 rad/sec400 m/2363 MW61 tf Rails 425mm Railgun II Large/30 GJ/57,600+24,000m/9.563 s/3.3x/0.009625 rad/sec400 m/2625 MW77 tf Pulse Mega Pulse Laser II Large/ 40 GJ/ 24,000+8,000m/7.88 s/ 3.6x/0.03375 rad/sec 400 m/2750 MW53 tf Beam Mega Beam Laser II Large /65 GJ/ 48,000+16,000m/9.00 s/ 3.6x/0.0153125 rad/sec 400 m/3575 MW58 tf Tachyon Beam Laser II Large/ 95 GJ/ 52,800+20,000m/12.50 s/ 5.4x/0.0139205 rad/sec 400 m/4125 MW63 tf Autocannons 800mm Repeating Artillery II Large/0/4,800+19,200m/7.875 s/3.234x/0.0432 rad/sec400 m/2200 MW41 tf Artillery 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Large/0/38,640+35,000m/21.038 s/6.098x/0.01125 rad/sec400 m/3025 MW44 tf 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Large/0/48,000+35,000m/40.163 s/12.807x/0.009 rad/sec400 m/3575 MW47 tf
Since you are so quick to post non-sense. Please use this information to explain why these paper numbers look good and balanced. But do not perform so in game. Or perhaps you have undeniable evidence that there is nothing wrong with hybrids? |
Bevil Smyth
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2011.07.09 09:45:00 -
[52]
Dont feed the trolls digi!
Agreed that hybrids need love, and also by proxy gal too. They share all the pitfalls of other weapons (cap usage, reloadtimes, limited damagetypes) and have their own added on top.
balance hybrids first, then come back and look at gallente to see how any improvements change things. |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.09 09:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cofidre Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11
Quote:
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject.
Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage!
tsk tsk...
An elf is a race, a mage is a class! |
Hacra
Minmatar Cosmodynamics
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Posted - 2011.07.09 10:09:00 -
[54]
There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.09 10:27:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 10:27:48
Originally by: Hacra There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards.
Hybrid turret experience? Which is why you have 3,752,158 sp trained in projectile turrets? If you are going to shoot down others through means of personal experience. Next time post with a character that proves you know what you're talking about. I almost forgot to mention you don't even have small hybrid turret level 1. |
Sundarpants
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Posted - 2011.07.09 10:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: SilentSkills one word, neut, and overheat, use your imagination.
which one? |
TC wabbajack
Prosperity Through Violence Unprovoked Aggression
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Posted - 2011.07.09 11:01:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 10:27:48
Originally by: Hacra There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards.
Hybrid turret experience? Which is why you have 3,752,158 sp trained in projectile turrets? If you are going to shoot down others through means of personal experience. Next time post with a character that proves you know what you're talking about. I almost forgot to mention you don't even have small hybrid turret level 1.
the great "hybrids are suxor's pls fix" whine is mainly used by players who fail to realise the way they are intended to be used and the way player driven tactics/warfare are at odds.hybrids would benefit if the hulls designed to used them have their bonuses looked at and balanced so then you dont have to use gimped fits to compete with projectile hulls.a tackle or agilty bonus would make the world of diffrence to blaster barge for example
I doubt you will find many more hybrid specc'd players here
tl;dr hulls need a boost more than hybrids |
Sundarpants
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Posted - 2011.07.09 11:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: TC wabbajack
the great "hybrids are suxor's pls fix" whine is mainly used by players who fail to realise the way they are intended to be used and the way player driven tactics/warfare are at odds.hybrids would benefit if the hulls designed to used them have their bonuses looked at and balanced so then you dont have to use gimped fits to compete with projectile hulls.a tackle or agilty bonus would make the world of diffrence to blaster barge for example
I doubt you will find many more hybrid specc'd players here
tl;dr hulls need a boost more than hybrids
This. It's fairly obvious |
MBrace
Amarr Hikivirta Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.07.09 11:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
I respectfully disagree. Hybrids have a niche that is not the flavor of the month at the moment. That does not mean they are broken. I firmly believe that by making all guns exactly the same we would be dulling the PvP world completely. Less vanilla, more flavor please. |
White Tree
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Posted - 2011.07.09 11:25:00 -
[60]
Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days.
I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong.
I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ |
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