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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 03:48:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle You could just end this thread, the sooner the better. CCP proved numerous times that they don't care about hybrids, nor balancing gallente in general. These threads are just giving people false hope.
The more we bring this to light, the faster it will be resolved. They can not completely ignore blatantly obvious flaws. |
Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2011.07.10 03:52:00 -
[92]
I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now...
Blasters are awesome! |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 04:02:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now...
Blasters are awesome!
Sure we have brought it up, time and time again. But have we ever broken into cold hard facts? Kept sprinting head first guns blazing at the forums? Are we rogue drones, or are we... capsuleers!
Cheesy RP "BS" aside. I honestly don't think CCP knows what to do about them. They are probably afraid they will upset the balance of the game like they had before. And now that it requires a large amount of work to fix... Well I am trying to make it a higher priority of theirs. That at least has some merit to it. Either tonight or tomorrow I am going to attempt to make another spreadsheet comparing ship types. Perhaps that will help us understand the major changes that could be made more easily.
I do not disregard all the wonderful ideas about fixing hybrids. I am just uncertain to whether they are the end all or best route. More research must be done in the name of science! So lets do science. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.07.10 04:13:00 -
[94]
Originally by: MBrace Edited by: MBrace on 09/07/2011 11:19:54
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
I respectfully disagree. Hybrids have a niche that is not the flavor of the month at the moment. That does not mean they are broken. I firmly believe that by making all guns exactly the same we would be dulling the PvP world completely. Less vanilla, more flavor please.
Edit - What TC said ^
Can you show us what month the Hybrids were flavor of? Which month was that one please show us all. |
Tuggboat
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.07.10 04:38:00 -
[95]
TIred of balnce, it always ends in a nerf and all nerfs make the game less fun to play.
I agree the ships need attention, It looks to me like native hardness especially on the damage type holes could use buffed to allow a gallente ship to get into range.
Some extra mids on non drone boats for dampeners to pull in ships would be nice.
Rails need a new sound effect.
so do blasters.
Something needs to compensate for damage types,
blaster could be area of effect weapons but focused into a cone.
Blaster optimal could be increased to go along with the shotgun style I proposed. A hit with a blaster ought to really hit hard for most of the time it hits. Taking out some nearby drones or frigs would be a nice bonus
Rails with sentry drones balance pretty nice but its a lot of training, rails fitting need should come down.
I'm sue I missed things but these are buffs instead of nerfs. Only thing I want nerfed is monocles, wearers should lose 2 or 3 perception training points cause of poor mechanical vision. |
Mors Sanctitatis
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Posted - 2011.07.10 07:58:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now...
Blasters are awesome!
Sure we have brought it up, time and time again. But have we ever broken into cold hard facts? Kept sprinting head first guns blazing at the forums? Are we rogue drones, or are we... capsuleers!
Cheesy RP "BS" aside. I honestly don't think CCP knows what to do about them. They are probably afraid they will upset the balance of the game like they had before. And now that it requires a large amount of work to fix... Well I am trying to make it a higher priority of theirs. That at least has some merit to it. Either tonight or tomorrow I am going to attempt to make another spreadsheet comparing ship types. Perhaps that will help us understand the major changes that could be made more easily.
I do not disregard all the wonderful ideas about fixing hybrids. I am just uncertain to whether they are the end all or best route. More research must be done in the name of science! So lets do science.
If you go back and research all the blaster threads, and I mean literally years ago, you'll find TONS of threads with insanely detailed graphs put together by some pretty capable math guys showing where blasters fall short (no pun intended lol).
The main issue has been the lack of peak DPS at short range and the completely broken tracking now that webs are only 60% instead of 90%. I used to be one of the biggest Hyperion users in the game and as soon as the webs were nerfed I lost 1-2 Hypes in the first 48 hours after the patch and never used one again.
The day they fix blasters is the day I'll start playing again. |
Raikov Vanskenski
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.10 08:51:00 -
[97]
Can we please get a Dev response in this thread? The fact that an entire race of EVE has been severely gimped for over 3 years is extremely disheartening... |
Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.07.10 09:13:00 -
[98]
One idea to consider, what if you lower the damage extremely low on the hybrids but give them a percentile chance to penetrate shields and armor and go straight for the hull. It's a little bit, all or nothing and i'm not 100 percent ok with the idea myself but something to consider and discuss. Another idea would be if they did heat damage to the modules like you get from over heating. Or up the fire rate on them and cause "knock" so the target can't align and warp out. Something.
In any case I think the largest issues along with the tracking and everything that has been said here, is also the fitting and the capacitor use. Up the PG and cap/cpu on Gallente/Caldari ships or lower the requirements.
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Laedy
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.07.10 09:40:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
LOL
I'm keeping that Vindicator as a trophy ship. Although, I've been thinking if blasters actually do get buffed I'm actually going to take out that beautiful ship for some PVP, and hopefully make glorious (real, not faked) battles in it
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Inserith Peon
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Posted - 2011.07.10 11:15:00 -
[100]
+1 to fixing the ships before changing the actual weapon stats. Eagle anyone? |
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M0GWAI
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2011.07.10 11:31:00 -
[101]
i love my blasters and wouldn't mind a fix or make some explosive ammo for them, but i guess that would make them op as hell instead |
Keen Fallsword
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Posted - 2011.07.10 11:45:00 -
[102]
Originally by: M0GWAI i love my blasters and wouldn't mind a fix or make some explosive ammo for them, but i guess that would make them op as hell instead
Small, medium or large ? |
M0GWAI
Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2011.07.10 11:59:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Originally by: M0GWAI i love my blasters and wouldn't mind a fix or make some explosive ammo for them, but i guess that would make them op as hell instead
Small, medium or large ?
i mostly use mediums, but small and large as well |
Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 12:18:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Nevertheless, the whole point of blasters is that they have poor range and optimal, but make up for it in damage. Balancing it to give it a more similar engagement range and damage profile over that range is merely working to remove the differences between the weapons. By adding damage and tracking, we would be working to enhance those differences and not change the point of using blasters, but make them worth their drawbacks.
I can't speak for other people. But, I agree, Blasters should not be the same as other weapons in their characteristics. However, if making Blasters different than other race weapons CCP has given them several disadvantages making them less effective than they should be.
Lets compare disadvantages:
Blasters:
1) Short range 2) Large cap reqs. 3) Tracking 4) Lack of damage types
HAMs:
1) Short range
See a problem here? Even with HAMs' short range, that range is far superior to blaster range. I don't think many of us want all guns to be the same. But, it would be great if there weren't such disparities. I'd be happy if CCP would improve tracking for blasters and I'd be happy to deal with the rest of the short comings if a traversal speed of 200m/s didn't mean I would completely miss my target.
Once you move from light blasters to medium, tracking issues are magnitudes of order worse. And that is a real shame because while I'm dealing with cap, range and tracking having to jockey to maintain range between 1Km and 3Km for a target varying his speed and direction constantly in my Proteus, that target, a tengu pilot, only has to deal with pressing a button to get his kill. That's the disparity. His shots are ALWAYS going to hit their target and for near maximum damage. My shots are going to have a 50/50 chance of doing the same thing if he's varying speed and direction.
Ultimately, as a Gallente pilot using blasters there is much more burden placed on him to be able to get decent dps and decent tank while still being required to also tackle a target and land shots all while maintaining cap.
I'm all for race specific limitation and drawbacks on weapons. But, unfortunately, Gallente seem to have more than others. |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
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Posted - 2011.07.10 13:35:00 -
[105]
Originally by: AlleyKat Hybrids worked just fine before the Gallente Nerf, even more so, they were one of the only balanced weapon systems in EVE.
The Gallente Nerf ended that.
Balance the ships, not the guns.
No you keep forgetting that hybrids are not a weapon exclusive to gallente!
When has a caldari railboat ever been awesome? Only the rokh was passable, being an okay sniper some years back; but none were ever awesome. Rails sucked even before the web nerf.
Srop focusing on ONLY blasters and ONLY gallente when you're suggesting hybrid balance ideas. Change the weapons, it's easier and more applicable. |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
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Posted - 2011.07.10 13:46:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 10/07/2011 13:50:44
Originally by: AlleyKat Fix the ships, not the guns they use.
this. blasters are fine, the problem is the armor tanking bricks bonused to use them.
rails I never really used so cant comment on them. |
Nal Tsuruomo
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Posted - 2011.07.10 14:38:00 -
[107]
Hybrids definitely need a buff. I see a lot of people talking about giving ships some sort of web bonus or MWD bonus... in most cases that just won't work. Those kinds of changes would just be band-aids. Yes hybrid wielding ships would be better if you left hybrids alone and buffed the ships... but imo both really need some minor tweaks to make them work.
Instead of some new fancy ship bonuses, simply reduce the mass or increase the base speed and agility of blaster wielding ships (or whatever you do to make them faster and more agile).
Blasters need slightly better optimal range, and quite a bit more tracking. Additionally the fitting requirements need to be looked at again. Some of the medium sized rails and blasters simply have non-nonsensical fitting requirements.
Dual 150mm Railgun II: 35 cp / 84 pg (doesn't cost nearly enough PG) 200mm Railgun II: 39 cpu / 189 pg (costs waaay too much) 250mm Railgun II: 44 cpu / 236 pg (costs waaay too much)
Same goes for medium sized blasters. A thorax that is fit with the cheapest (pg requirements) tank possible still can only fit a rack of IONs. If you want a decent tank/buffer you HAVE to fit electrons. This just doesn't make sense for a ship designed to primarily provide DPS through blasters.
Finally, medium rails fail in just about every way. Every other cruiser / bc long ranged weapon system (or short ranged weapons with long ranged ammo) beats out medium rails hands down. Want to fly a rail Brutix? You're better off flying a barrage loaded Rupture.
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Ranga Sarn
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Posted - 2011.07.10 15:58:00 -
[108]
bump bump bump :)
Yes +1000000000000000000 for this thread ! FULL SUPPORT for OP |
Wangston Hughes
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Posted - 2011.07.10 16:03:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Wangston Hughes on 10/07/2011 16:03:03 The problem isn't with ship speed or agility. Getting into range usually isn't a big problem, but the bat**** insane fitting requirements and low powergrid on hybrid hulls effectively prevent them from fitting any significant tank if they want to do adequate damage. And you'll probably be primaried before you have the chance to use them to great effect. Tracking and falloff should be increased, PG requirements reduced, and the terrible T2 hybrid ammos should probably be reworked entirely. |
Saul Perry
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Posted - 2011.07.10 16:19:00 -
[110]
Yes I think part of the problem with fixing these guns is that it's hard to even know what to do. CCP is probably scared to try.
That said, there has been a lot of good suggestions already in this thread (ship bonuses mostly. MWD bonuses. Web bonuses. PG reduction).
Also, it seems like every MMORPG player ever wants DPS, DPS, DPS, and so many are dissapointed with blasters since they are the best dps in the game (ha) on paper but it just doesn't actually happen. Then, they forget that rails are also broken, becasue, hey who cares.
But make no mistake, rails need love too.
My Rails suggestion...
Somewhat lower powergrid requirements Lower resolution (it's be nice to see rails getting good 'sniper' role bonuses like this. Probably as a ship bonus) |
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Scorn Gojira
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Posted - 2011.07.10 16:52:00 -
[111]
Signed.
FIX BLASTERS.
Terrible right now. |
Sekket
Caldari White-Noise
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Posted - 2011.07.10 17:11:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Sekket on 10/07/2011 17:12:24 It's the ships and ammo that are the problem mostly. Rails, however, certainly need their fitting requirements lowered.
Gallente hulls have very poor capacitor stats, poor cpu/powergrid, pretty terrible speed and maneuverability, and are hull heavy. The last point kinda screws gallente pilots out of a lot of EHP because if they try and tank resistances they won't benefit from their lows/rigs as much due to there being only one module that affects hull resistance, and to use it you need to sacrifice a low that will either help you more as additional armor or resistances. Trying to fit Gallente ships for speed and maneuverability hits their EHP hard being at once armor tanking and light in armor amount over hull.
The hybrid platform, in general has nothing going for it. The stats are comparable to the other weapon systems, hybrids don't have any special feature that makes them stand out. Projectiles can do all damage types and require no cap, lasers can change crystals instantly, and missiles can be switched between all damage types, use no cap, and are somewhat guaranteed to do some damage to the target. Hybrids use a lot of cap, are limited to two damage types, and are plagued by all the other turret problems. Worse, since the ships that typically mount them are suffering from fitting problems and have to give up slots that could be used for tracking and damage mods in order to fit hybrids in the first place.
Other than ship specific bonuses, there is no reason to mount hybrids.
Edit:grammar |
Eyup Mi'duck
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Posted - 2011.07.10 17:37:00 -
[113]
So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
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AlleyKat
Gallente The Unwanted.
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:04:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
Already worked my way through minmater and caldari, working on amarr stuff now. Partially because of this, partially because of wishing to fly more than one race anyway for variety but truth be told, I am running out of stuff to train for anyway, and do not want to fly capital ships.
AK |
Saul Perry
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:11:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences ...
I've been playing around with that spreadsheet in excel to try to bring out some of these differences more clearly.
In particular, it's interesting to take the tracking speed and turn it into an actual m/s of tracking at optimal, optimal +1/2 falloff, and optimal + falloff. Blasters start to look really bad if you do.
Also interesting to consider how effective tracking in m/s changes as you move through the range, since it's pretty easy to keep tracking or damaging well if you fall outside the 'sweet spot' for a weapon the shoots well at 25km but nigh impossible to do so when your 'sweet spot' is so narrow at short range and you basically gotta be charging in just to START applying damage and can so easily blow right through that 'sweet spot' if you are lucky enough to get in range.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:18:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Ein Phantom
Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor on 08/07/2011 19:21:31
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
Have you ever actually USED Hybrids ?? Nuclear Reactors look GREAT on paper, but here comes a little wave............
Speak from EXPERIENCE. PLEASE.
Also, nobody really WON that Alliance Tourney you Fool. It was a publicly admitted farce, that performance with the Vindicator. Are you stupid ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
Last reply to you: for methinks Troll IS Troll.
Hook, line, and sinker.
No matter how bad the troll, these forums always come up with someone to feed them |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:20:00 -
[117]
Originally by: SilentSkills Edited by: SilentSkills on 08/07/2011 22:10:44
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills?
My Ishkur > Retri T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
one word, neut, and overheat, use your imagination.
Why would an ishkur ever get in neut range of a retribution? Anyway enyo is the blaster af, use that to test, not the drone boat. |
Saul Perry
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:23:00 -
[118]
Here is part of what I cam up with working with that spreadsheet. All turrets sorted by their tracking speeds in m/s at 1/2 optimal (where most ammo is) + 1/2 falloff
Sorted from worst to Best
Electron Blaster Cannon II Ion Blaster Cannon II Heavy Electron Blaster II Dual 250mm Railgun II 350mm Railgun II Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Heavy Ion Blaster II 425mm Railgun II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Dual 150mm Railgun II Quad Light Beam Laser II Heavy Neutron Blaster II 200mm Railgun II 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 250mm Railgun II Dual Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Beam Laser II Light Electron Blaster II 650mm Artillery Cannon II Tachyon Beam Laser II Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II Dual 425mm Autocannon II Focused Medium Beam Laser II Light Ion Blaster II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II 425mm Autocannon II Heavy Pulse Laser II 75mm Gatling Rail II 220mm Vulcan Autocannon II 125mm Railgun II Light Neutron Blaster II 280mm Howitzer Artillery II Dual 180mm Autocannon II 150mm Railgun II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II Medium Beam Laser II Gatling Pulse Laser II Dual Light Beam Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II 200mm Autocannon II Medium Pulse Laser II 150mm Light Autocannon II 125mm Gatling Autocannon II
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Eyup Mi'duck
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:34:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Saul Perry Edited by: Saul Perry on 10/07/2011 18:28:34
Here is part of what I cam up with working with that spreadsheet. All turrets sorted by their tracking speeds in m/s at 1/2 optimal (where most ammo is) + 1/2 falloff
Sorted from worst to Best
Electron Blaster Cannon II Ion Blaster Cannon II Heavy Electron Blaster II Dual 250mm Railgun II 350mm Railgun II Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Heavy Ion Blaster II 425mm Railgun II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Dual 150mm Railgun II Quad Light Beam Laser II Heavy Neutron Blaster II 200mm Railgun II 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 250mm Railgun II Dual Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Beam Laser II Light Electron Blaster II 650mm Artillery Cannon II Tachyon Beam Laser II Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II Dual 425mm Autocannon II Focused Medium Beam Laser II Light Ion Blaster II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II 425mm Autocannon II Heavy Pulse Laser II 75mm Gatling Rail II 220mm Vulcan Autocannon II 125mm Railgun II Light Neutron Blaster II 280mm Howitzer Artillery II Dual 180mm Autocannon II 150mm Railgun II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II Medium Beam Laser II Gatling Pulse Laser II Dual Light Beam Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II 200mm Autocannon II Medium Pulse Laser II 150mm Light Autocannon II 125mm Gatling Autocannon II
edit - Oh and just to put some additional perspective in here. the differences are not small (for a stat which should almost be uniform). The best and worst are different by a factor of 5 times
OK so has anyone tried stacked tracking mods with hybrids?
Get over it! Learn from your mistake and move on. |
AMatay
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Posted - 2011.07.10 18:40:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
and on the note of trackign mods to use them you gimp your tank tackle or dps, possibly all 3 at once, and since the base trackign is so low you dont get very much of an increase at all.
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