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Chronix Beebelbrox
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Posted - 2011.07.10 20:22:00 -
[121]
Yes, fix them.
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Kehro Urgus
Gallente Ab Obice Saevior
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Posted - 2011.07.10 20:50:00 -
[122]
Just finished up Large Hybrids 5 and currently use a Navy Domi or Ishtar to run l4 missions. Was poking around in EVE HQ to see my Navy Domi gets only slightly better DPS with t2 large dual 250's as it does with its current rack of t2 250 mediums. Not at all worth it with training times and ammo cost and trying the heavier calibre large hybrids just ate up the powergrid and cap. Also have a Navy Megathron laying around. With large blasters, nice dps and all but functionally useless unless swarmed and with large rails only slightly better than my domi with medium t2.
Then I tried a hyperion fit in EVE HQ. Glad I dont own one.
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:30:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 10/07/2011 21:32:08 The root of the issue is more expansive than simply the turrets. As a response to the mention of caldari hybrid systems. It is only fair to add them into this discussion as well. Though it would be beneficial to keep all missiles talk out of it.
It also should be noted. That the rokh can not even fit 425's without a PDS,RCU, or ACR. Which is strange seeing as it is supposed to be a hybrid long range platform. It is harder to properly fit hybrid platforms than Tachyon Beam Laser II's on an abaddon / apocalypse. And even though you have to use power grid boosters to fit tachyon's. It is only because of the vast difference between Tach's and Mega's.
Tachyon Beam Laser II - Large - 95 - GJ - 52,800+20,000m - 12.50 s - 5.4x - 0.0139205 rad/sec - 400 m - 4125 MW - 63 tf 425mm Railgun II - Large - 30 GJ - 57,600+24,000m - 9.563 s - 3.3x - 0.009625 rad/sec - 400 m - 2625 MW - 77 tf 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II - Large - 0 GJ - 48,000+35,000m - 40.163 s - 12.807x - 0.009 rad/sec - 400 m - 3575 MW - 47 tf
It costs more CPU to use 425mm Railgun II's than Tachyon Beam's or 1400mm's. The damage mod is comparably lower than Tachyon's for their ROF. The 1400mm's have amnesty seeing as they have a 40.163 second ROF. They also cost more power grid than the other two. Now after reading that last sentence you might be thinking "2625 MW? Something doesn't make sense..." But when you consider.
rank 3 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Abaddon: 700/26250 Maelstrom: 800/26250 Hyperion: 750/19687.5 Rokh: 975/18750
rank 2 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Apocalypse: 631.25/25625 Tempest: 687.5/19375 Megathron: 687.5/19375 Raven: 875/11875
rank 1 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Armageddon: 606.25/20625 Typhoon: 750/15625 Dominix: 750/11250 Scorpion: 937/11250
You can see that all of the Gallente ships suffer from lack of power grid. Now what I can't understand is why an armor tank based ship would be lacking so greatly in power grid? CCP must of realized that even by lowering the cost of turrets for this race. People would be faced with fitting issues when it came to tanking. It isn't like Gallente gets a reduction to fitting hull and armor modules. The amount of CPU given, even to the drone boats. Does not make up for the cost of simply fitting hybrids on these ships. And drone modules cost a lot of CPU on their own. The increased CPU cost removes the ability to use Weapon Upgrades in and of themselves.
Things get worse when you compare the ideals for which these ships are meant to be used. As a sniping vessel, they are meant to out run/maneuver their opponent. Which is why scram/webifiers exist. Although you don't even require either to catch up or keep pace with them. Which is where the agility and m/s factors in.
The tracking is either lacking or on par for any other turret platform. While blasters lack optimal which is necessary to properly apply dps. And Hybrids are lacking in damage modification. Not including other factors that we see, which is why they lack comparable performance.
Ammo fits into funny use and categories. As tech 2 variations both have a negative percentage, range modifying, variant. Rails have some understanding when it comes to having a variation that reduces range for damage. But -75% is beyond extreme considering they are a sniping niche. The idea of blasters being given less range is simply ridiculous. Null should not give a pilot less range when blasters are already the lowest and comparably worse ranged turrets. Projectile and Lasers have the advantage of at least being able to properly boost their optimal or falloff respectively. Allowing for modification to take a far greater effect.
With all of this in mind it is easy to see how to balance Gallente. A small boost to areas that are disabling proper performance and fitting, tweaking turrets, and improving ship agility and speed. And we would still have our unique ammo damage and niche's. I say SiSi tests 2% changes until balanced.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:40:00 -
[124]
Quote: Things get worse when you compare the ideals for which these ships are meant to be used. As a sniping vessel, they are meant to out run/maneuver their opponent. Which is why scram/webifiers exist. Although you don't even require either to catch up or keep pace with them. Which is where the agility and m/s factors in.
This was meant to say sniping and close combat vessel. But I ran out of room and having trouble editing this portion properly.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Eyup Mi'duck
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:41:00 -
[125]
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
Get over it! Learn from your mistake and move on. |
Ur235
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:49:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Ur235 on 10/07/2011 21:49:44
Originally by: TC wabbajack
the great "hybrids are suxor's pls fix" whine is mainly used by players who fail to realise the way they are intended to be used and the way player driven tactics/warfare are at odds.hybrids would benefit if the hulls designed to used them have their bonuses looked at and balanced so then you dont have to use gimped fits to compete with projectile hulls.a tackle or agilty bonus would make the world of diffrence to blaster barge for example
I doubt you will find many more hybrid specc'd players here
tl;dr hulls need a boost more than hybrids
Think again all of my hybrid skills are lvl 5, I used to do ok with my Deimos when they didnt speed nerf the Gallente I mean wth were u thnking ccp. Im so tired of taking all that effort to get in range of a zealot only to do slightly more dmg and him being able to burn out of my range even with a warp scrammer on my ship. I mean he can literally slowboat out of my Scram range and Ive barely done enough dmg to him, then bam he turns on the mwd and im totally screwed
Fix it >_<
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Ur235
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:55:00 -
[127]
Just to add to that point I dont want you to boost the hybrids so there almsot the same as lazers or autocannons I dunno maybe increase the tracking speed so we get more perfect hits than any other ship and dont miss half as much as we normally do that would certainly help us. Or decrease the other ships tracking speed and keep ours the same
Just do something
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 21:59:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
Not every one trained hybrids after the changes. And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance.
Lets take any classic rpg in mind here. Let's say you like playing a mage, while rogues and warriors are doing better. And rangers are doing great in one department but not so much in another. You love the look of the mage, the way magic spells come out, and your kicking cool outfit/style. Why should you not play what you want to? Because the other two outperform you in what you are supposed to be good at? Instead shouldn't the developers balance out the game to make mages more viable?
Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Dr Ming
Mindworks
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Posted - 2011.07.10 22:04:00 -
[129]
Caldari are mostly fine, as shield tanks are in a really good place and missiles are in a really good place. The problem with their rail ships is 100% a "railguns and blasters suck" issue, as most of their hybrid ships are good ships with a weapon system that is so bad it simply drives them to use their missile boats instead. If hybrids were not garbage, then that would fix the Caldari side of the hybrid issue.
Hybrids are a mess, Gallente ships are a mess, armor rigs are a mess. When put together, it adds up to a disaster.
The web change messed blaster tracking up, and scan probe changes made extreme range sniping worthless.
Active local tank bonuses are worthless outside of corner cases. Active armor tanks are even more worthless since armor tanks don't have the Crystal option.
Armor rigs kill speed on a ship that needs to close. Speed rigs kill armor on a ship that needs to buffer.
Scoop and release not refreshing drone shields hurt Gallente blaster ships, and some of the bandwidth changes aimed at ships like the Eos resulted in the ship being garbage.
Hybrids are also not a very easy thing to fit on Gallente hulls.
High hybrid cap use makes them vulnerable to neuts, which would be fine if there was a payoff.
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Eyup Mi'duck
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Posted - 2011.07.10 22:25:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Digital Messiah And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance.
That's great, but if you do, then you have to accept their limitations as well.
Originally by: Digital Messiah Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own.
OK so you have a choice. Option 1: stay with what you've got and keep on complaining - you have zero control over the outcome and if CCP make any changes, it will be "soon" . Option 2: Retrain and fly something else - yes this will take a little time and effort, but YOU can make it happen. THAT is your choice!
Get over it! Learn from your mistake and move on. |
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.10 22:34:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: Digital Messiah And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance.
That's great, but if you do, then you have to accept their limitations as well.
Originally by: Digital Messiah Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own.
OK so you have a choice. Option 1: stay with what you've got and keep on complaining - you have zero control over the outcome and if CCP make any changes, it will be "soon" . Option 2: Retrain and fly something else - yes this will take a little time and effort, but YOU can make it happen. THAT is your choice!
I am not complaining in the sense you have stated. I am simply finding fault with hybrid weapons. The only way to be above this effecting you is to have all weapon systems trained. And even if I could make it happen. I am going to assume this means play the game as you see fit "what is over powered atm". It doesn't mean I don't want this issue resolved for the changes it would make to pvp, pve, and the games economy.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
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Posted - 2011.07.10 23:10:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Blah blah blah
Please leave.
Your contribution to this thread is tantamount to 'So there's a problem with Gallente and hybrids? Ignore it; just train Minmatar and be like everyone else.'
Just go away.
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Ehdward
Caldari Nex Exercitus Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.07.10 23:34:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Ehdward on 10/07/2011 23:33:49
Originally by: White Tree Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days.
I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong.
I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ
Don't forget Moas, Eagles, Rokhs, and Feroxes while you're at it.
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Jaehawn
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Posted - 2011.07.10 23:52:00 -
[134]
CCP isnt going to fix hybrids. They are going to spend your money on WoD and Dust 514. You all need to get used to it and live with it. You will eat what they feed you and play where they tell you. Its their money and they can play with it how they want too. Stop asking for things. Its not your game. So any post asking for any game improvement needs to be deleted and the user silenced. The great CCP has spoken and you have all fed on it. 100000 AUR might buy you a better hybrid turret if you ask nicely and remember to wipe your chin.
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.11 00:18:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Jaehawn CCP isnt going to fix hybrids. They are going to spend your money on WoD and Dust 514. You all need to get used to it and live with it. You will eat what they feed you and play where they tell you. Its their money and they can play with it how they want too. Stop asking for things. Its not your game. So any post asking for any game improvement needs to be deleted and the user silenced. The great CCP has spoken and you have all fed on it. 100000 AUR might buy you a better hybrid turret if you ask nicely and remember to wipe your chin.
When it comes to implementing new features. And providing new content, sure I could agree with you. When it involves features and content that is already under review and being changed. Then I think your entire statement is trash. Please take your hate mongering for the game else where. And it would help to look into how developers actually develop a game.
If you hadn't kept up with what this thread is really about... We are trying to get this issue addressed sooner. And provide feedback on how to do so in an actually balanced, realistic, and reasonable manner.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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AMatay
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Posted - 2011.07.11 00:27:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
your comment perfectly proves the point of the thread, gallente are so far behind the other races that they should be avoided completely. if this isnt proof they need to be balanced nothing is
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.07.11 01:34:00 -
[137]
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
your comment perfectly proves the point of the thread, gallente are so far behind the other races that they should be avoided completely. if this isnt proof they need to be balanced nothing is
Hear, hear!
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Luc Chastot
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.11 03:47:00 -
[138]
Why not just fix the ammo? Increased damage for all hybrid charges plus tracking bonuses for short range ammo and lower signature resolution for ranged ammo.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.07.11 07:58:00 -
[139]
I can't believe people rioted over freaking monocles yet there's no such outrage for a BROKEN aspect of the game. "Mors certa, hora incerta." |
Kewso
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Posted - 2011.07.11 08:03:00 -
[140]
They need to fix smite clerics and need left axe also! And make it easier to earn master level xp!
Oh wait... -----------------------
A Dysfunctional Playground |
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.11 09:35:00 -
[141]
Why CCP thought it would be a good idea to have two races using the same guns i dont know.
Amarr get lasers all to themselves Minmatar get projectiles all to themselves Caldari get missiles all to themselves (almost) Gallente get... well, nothing to themselves
If it were possible to do a major revamp, i'd change all Caldari ships to missiles and let Gallente be the sole Hybrid users.
Crazy i know, but its going to be a hell of a lot easier to balance a weapon system when TWO races arent dependent on the same weapon system. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EVE: TESTING GROUNDS FOR WoD & DUST SINCE 2011 |
Jacque Cruix
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Posted - 2011.07.11 09:51:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Skippermonkey
If it were possible to do a major revamp, i'd change all Caldari ships to missiles and let Gallente be the sole Hybrid users.
They have a common past, so it makes sense they have common weapon systems.
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Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.07.11 09:59:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Jacque Cruix
Originally by: Skippermonkey
If it were possible to do a major revamp, i'd change all Caldari ships to missiles and let Gallente be the sole Hybrid users.
They have a common past, so it makes sense they have common weapon systems.
Yes, and because effectively 99% of all hybrid ships are terrible (Gallente and Caldari), then the balancing does not require the Caldari weapon structure to be revamped.
Hmm.... Can anyone name a hybrid ship which does't have a better Minmatar counterpart?
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Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
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Posted - 2011.07.11 10:40:00 -
[144]
Gallente ships have weak sensor stregth.... high signatur radius... useless gunns
Final nail in gallente coffin was when moros was nerfed.
There is so mutch wrong with Gallente ships that i dont think it can be fixed.
R.I.P Gallente
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.07.11 10:41:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 11/07/2011 10:46:30
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab I can't believe people rioted over freaking monocles yet there's no such outrage for a BROKEN aspect of the game.
CCP has proven they aren't interested in fixing gallente.
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Hmm.... Can anyone name a hybrid ship which does't have a better Minmatar counterpart?
Arazu/Lachesis.. for the scram range bonus.
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Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
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Posted - 2011.07.11 10:54:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Zey Nadar Edited by: Zey Nadar on 11/07/2011 10:46:30
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab I can't believe people rioted over freaking monocles yet there's no such outrage for a BROKEN aspect of the game.
CCP has proven they aren't interested in fixing gallente.
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Hmm.... Can anyone name a hybrid ship which does't have a better Minmatar counterpart?
Arazu/Lachesis.. for the scram range bonus.
Dont help with scram bonus when gallente can be jammed by a civ. multi spectral jammer....
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Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
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Posted - 2011.07.11 11:03:00 -
[147]
The only good use for hybrid weapons is in w-space fighting at 0 on wormholes, but even in that specific situation, they've a real disadvantage to the other weapon systems.
@CCP: Please put some resources into fixing Gallente and Caladari hybrid boats
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Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G
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Posted - 2011.07.11 11:13:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Tore Vest
Dont help with scram bonus when gallente can be jammed by a civ. multi spectral jammer....
And minmatar cant?
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Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
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Posted - 2011.07.11 11:24:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Tore Vest
Dont help with scram bonus when gallente can be jammed by a civ. multi spectral jammer....
And minmatar cant?
Not so mutch...
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Centis Adjani
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.11 11:51:00 -
[150]
Already posted at page 2 and raged there about the nerf of the 10 seconds timer for ammo switching. I think, 5 seconds for this should be quite enough. And I'm annoyed by the 1/3 new cycle backlash of the turrets if you want switch them off. If I switch an item off, I want to get it OFF. And not cycle further on to the end and then cycle further on for 1/3 of a new cycle.
About the Hybrids Regarding this topic I thought to give another weapon a try... So I fly this Gallente BC 'Myrmidon'. This ship has no hybrid weapon bonuses like other Gallente ships - only bonuses for drones. So no matter what type of turrets to fit.
Up from start I fittet 250mm Prototype Gauss Gun and used hybrid ammo. And always was angry because of the low damage they deal. And because of the damage type which is only Kinetic & Thermal for all ammo types. Additional I have skill 'Medium Hybrid Turret' to Lvl 4, use an Implant to increase the medium hybrid damage by 3% AND use TWO 'Magnetic Field Stabilizer II' in low slots. And last the ship use a RIG (dont know the name actually) to additional increase the damage of hybrid turrets. And with all these things still the damage is bad. Especially if you fight against Angels (Explosive damage needed) or Blood Raiders (EM damage needed).
Now I trained Medium Projectile Turrets this Saturday. Fitted 720mm 'Scout' Artillery instead the 250mm Gauss. Switched the 2 Field Stabilizers with 2 Gyrostabilizer II. First thing I realized: I got much more Energy left. This allow me to fit a better Tank, I couldn't fit before because of less Energy. NICE! :-) Second thing I realized - I can use appropriate ammo for the different enemies to deal especially the damage they are weak of. And the third, and this is really the affirmation that hybrid turrets in their actual design with this actual hybrid ammo are crap: I now deal more damage than before and this without a special RIG and without a special Implant and with a lower skill level ("Medium Projectile Turret" Lvl 3! - for Hybrid I own Lvl 4)
So in compare of Projectile Turrets to Hybrid Turrets, on a ship without any bonus for both of these Turret types:
The Projectile (with its ammo) is really good. Use less Energy so you can better Tank. Draws more damage to enemies than Hybrid - and this with a LOWER weapon skill, without Implants and without a special RIG.
And the Hybrid (with its ammo) is crap. You fit a damage increasing RIG to the ship, you fit an damage increasing implant, you have one level higher weapon skill and STILL this weapon stays bad.
I think, CCP should work on Hybrids in short steps. May be first, change some damage the different ammo types deal. So Gallente get some hybrid ammo to deal Exp and EM damage. Second, lower the energy need of the hybrid weapons a bit. Then take a look if this help. If not then do some other things which are already mentioned in postings here before.
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