Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 19:04:18 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1" Turrets (not missiles). "Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
|
Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente Bison Industrial Inc
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:10:00 -
[2]
Almost 18 month old Industrial Toon finally stepping into Caldari Battleships.
I have 3 other Toons, one of each race. Fly all 4 racial ships and tried all weaponry.
Hybrids are BORKED !
I did not know what to believe when I started playing the game. But with experience.....my God are they terrible.
I now own a 120+ M ISK Rokh that is relegated to Mission Gas Cloud Harvesting only. That is LITERALLY all it's good for.
|
Ein Phantom
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:11:00 -
[3]
LOOKS LIKE COMPARABLE DPS TO ME |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente Bison Industrial Inc
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Ein Phantom LOOKS LIKE COMPARABLE DPS TO ME
erm.......Give it's Alpha-Strike a little go-around...........
|
Alara IonStorm
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:14:00 -
[5]
Has anyone noticed that the only reason we say Amarr is on par with Minmatar is Scorch. It is litterally there only saving grace.
Also +1 Balance the game.
|
Ein Phantom
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:15:00 -
[6]
All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?! |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente Bison Industrial Inc
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor on 08/07/2011 19:21:31
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
Have you ever actually USED Hybrids ?? Nuclear Reactors look GREAT on paper, but here comes a little wave............
Speak from EXPERIENCE. PLEASE.
Also, nobody really WON that Alliance Tourney you Fool. It was a publicly admitted farce, that performance with the Vindicator. Are you stupid ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
Last reply to you: for methinks Troll IS Troll.
|
Takakura Hirohito
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 08/07/2011 19:22:51
VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT: to keep EVE interesting, weapons (and ships) need to be balanced by enhancing their differences. It would be terrible if things were balanced by making them more similar to each other.
An example of intelligently balancing hybrids would be increasing the range on railguns, and increasing the damage and tracking on blasters. We DO NOT want blasters to be tweaked so they become more like pulse lasers or autocannons.
Another example would be decreasing the damage and increasing the rate-of-fire on pulse and beam lasers while increasing the damage and reducing the rate-of-fire on artillery projectile turrets. Lasers should have a high damage output and good range, but very little alpha. Their damage should be quite steady. Conversely, artillery should have moderate damage but outrageous alpha, less DPS but more alpha than they even have now. |
Levi Crawford
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:25:00 -
[9]
Honestly I disapprove of this petition.
Why? Because it's like a petition stating that Flat earth theory is flawed and we need to get rid of it.
Not only should CCP already know this, it should almost be the first thing on their agenda. It scares and saddens me to think a petition like this could actually make a difference -- that would mean somehow CCP isn't convinced enough yet or is actually so incompetent that they think hybrids are ok. Actually, the latest trailer showing a hybrid fleet taking out a laser fleet seems to almost imply that very thing and that we just don't have clever FCs and good interceptor pilots.
But seriously, of course hybrids are bad. terribly terribly bad
I like the spreadsheet but unfortunately pure numbers and attributes like that don't tell the whole story. On paper Hybrids don't actually look that bad and that's part of the problem. The problem is real world implementations like the actual ranges most battles are fought at and what 'actual' dps turns out to be once things like range, cap, tracking, speeds, ship bonuses, etc are taken into account.
One good comparison might be to take an comparison of damage inflicted in killmails by these weapons over (say) the past year (scaled of course to the populations of users since so many more will be using other weapons)
Hybrids ... so ... bad ... fix ... please ... please |
Ein Phantom
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:25:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor on 08/07/2011 19:21:31
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
Have you ever actually USED Hybrids ?? Nuclear Reactors look GREAT on paper, but here comes a little wave............
Speak from EXPERIENCE. PLEASE.
Also, nobody really WON that Alliance Tourney you Fool. It was a publicly admitted farce, that performance with the Vindicator. Are you stupid ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
Last reply to you: for methinks Troll IS Troll.
Hook, line, and sinker. |
|
Atticus Fynch
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:27:00 -
[11]
The worst of it is training hybrids only to find out you wasted your training time on useless weapons. |
Levi Crawford
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:27:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Levi Crawford on 08/07/2011 19:28:59 Edited by: Levi Crawford on 08/07/2011 19:28:38
Originally by: Ein Phantom LOOKS LIKE COMPARABLE DPS TO ME
ugh. On paper only.
edit - I fell for it too. ha. How could I have though anyone actually disagreed with this. silly silly me |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente Bison Industrial Inc
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:31:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ein Phantom [Hook, line, and sinker.
Thank God for Locator Agents and 4 Toons in 4 Empires. |
SilentSkills
Gallente Tax Evaders Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
no, but you seem to be quite a fail troll and/or a ******ed kid.
Last AT was rigged. Also you can't do damage if you can't get to the target. Blasters being the shortest range weapon in the game should be paired with either equal or higher speed boats. Railguns have ****ty dps, and any pvp ship fitted with rails will be gimped due to the heavy fitting requirements, which trumps the ability to fit proper tank/buffer. and usage. Minmatar currently hold the fastest BSes in game, and they are paired with arty/auto-cannons. Auto-cannnons have longer range than blasters, use no cap, and are usually mounted on ships that can outrun a blaster boat. That is a broken mechanic.
While I agree that CCP did a good job with Tier 3 BSes' balance in 1v1, Hyperion vs Abaddon vs Maelstrom, (can't speak for Rokh), they have neglected and gimped the rest of pure gallente ships (not faction mixes) due to VERY tight fitting options. It is very stupid and broken that a megathron needs either faction mods or best named or cpu - implants in order to be fully t2 fitted, while many other Tier 2 BSes have no issue maximizing their bonuses and optimizing their roles.
Argue all you want, I've flown gallente for a while. I know the workarounds to fitting anything my race has to offer, as well as it's limitations |
Ein Phantom
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Originally by: Ein Phantom [Hook, line, and sinker.
Thank God for Locator Agents and 4 Toons in 4 Empires.
I DON'T THINK SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS THE POINT OF FORUM ALTS
*WHOOSH* |
Krixtal Icefluxor
Gallente Bison Industrial Inc
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:34:00 -
[16]
Oh, hi Atticus. Still signature-linking to my CCP Permanent Hangover Thread !
|
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:49:00 -
[17]
I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 19:56:00 -
[18]
The tracking is almost Identical between blasters and autocannons. The range is the main issue here. For blasters I could see a slight damage mod boost and range increase balancing them out. Rails look more like they are suffering with damage mods. And if you have ever used railguns you could see yourself how little damage they can apply. I could see a cpu requirement decrease and a damage increase balancing out railguns.
All together the main issue here is drastic differences and identical stats in other areas. Hybrid turrets are supposed to be the middle ground. Blasters are like a beat up truck with a lot of horsepower but no torque "it could do a lot if it could get anywhere". Railguns can get everywhere, they just don't have the damage to make it matter.
TL;DR, Hybrids are not the middle ground turret and need to be reviewed drastically. |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:03:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Oh, hi Atticus. Still signature-linking to my CCP Permanent Hangover Thread !
Hi!
Yeah, I thought that post of yours was spot on so I'm keeping it in my sig. Excellent observation IMO. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:13:00 -
[20]
Thing is blasters are supposed to be the face melters. They have not melted a face in quite awhile though. |
|
Dead Bait
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:19:00 -
[21]
Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong. |
Atticus Fynch
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dead Bait Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong.
So instead of buffing hybrids, just nerf everything else?
|
AlleyKat
Gallente The Unwanted.
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:24:00 -
[23]
Fix the ships, not the guns they use.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 20:55:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:55:41
Originally by: Atticus Fynch
Originally by: Dead Bait Maybe your looking at it backwards, maybe projectile turrets are too strong.
So instead of buffing hybrids, just nerf everything else?
Would require more work to do that I think.
And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing. |
AlleyKat
Gallente The Unwanted.
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 21:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing.
Easy - for all ships that were designed for blasters/close range pvp should get web bonus and mwd speed bonus/mass decrease.
That way you could:
Get into range faster and have higher MWD speed. slow down your opponent so tracking is not a problem.
Then blasters could deal the damage they were originally designed to do prior to the 'speed nerf' AKA 'CCP decided to nerf an entire race of ships and half of another, nerf'
Did I miss anything?
AK |
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 21:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: AlleyKat
Originally by: Digital Messiah
And fixing all the gallente ships is slightly unrealistic. Sure they need some serious work done. But it won't fix the problems non ship related with hybrid turrets. And it goes without saying there are ships of every race that need fixing.
Easy - for all ships that were designed for blasters/close range pvp should get web bonus and mwd speed bonus/mass decrease.
That way you could:
Get into range faster and have higher MWD speed. slow down your opponent so tracking is not a problem.
Then blasters could deal the damage they were originally designed to do prior to the 'speed nerf' AKA 'CCP decided to nerf an entire race of ships and half of another, nerf'
Did I miss anything?
AK
I agree the real problem with hybrid weapons, well blasters anyway, is that it is very very difficult to maintain a range at which u can use them,. for 1 your inside scramble range so you cant use mwd to move any closer, two gallente ships are very slow and armor tanked which makes them even slower and less agile. and 3 if your not at that point blank range your weapons do next to no damage so it is very easy for other ships to kite a blaster boat |
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:02:00 -
[27]
Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots.
The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking. |
Ninevite
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:04:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ninevite on 08/07/2011 22:05:10 Please fix hybrid turrets. Giving armor tanked (slow) ships the shortest range weapon in the game makes no sense. Railguns are so useless for PvP I don't even have to explain them. Making all Gallente ships faster would probably work well too.
Also, please fix projectile turrets by nerfing them. The fact that they can work well with so many builds means they are broken. No other weapon system in the game is as versatile and useful. |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:08:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills? |
SilentSkills
Gallente Tax Evaders Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:10:00 -
[30]
Edited by: SilentSkills on 08/07/2011 22:10:44
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills?
My Ishkur > Retri T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
one word, neut, and overheat, use your imagination. |
|
Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 22:19:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 08/07/2011 22:24:42 Signed.
Gallente ships, not only hybrids, need a thorough looking at. The blaster platforms have been rendered useless by successive buffs to other weapons systems (here's looking at you, autocannons), and nerfs to modules that Gallente ships were dependant on. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 23:44:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills? T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
WTF do you think? I have only been here since fricken 2005. Of course I used t2 modules and faction ammo.And yes, kick ass drone skills too. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.08 23:49:00 -
[33]
Hey guys. Remember when the Deimos was a good ship? I don't either. Blasters have needed love for awhile, especially with various drone changes that have come in that allowed to compensate for the lack. The other guns also didn't have the boosts they now have. What allowed the Gallente to stay competitive were their drone ships. Especially setups like the Nos Domi. Then Nos got the nerf bat. Neut Domis are still nasty but it really hurt the last fall back for Gallente pilots. |
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:00:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14
Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it.
That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game.
The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately. |
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:32:00 -
[35]
Now here's something I can get behind....stop letting sentries shoot drones. Screws -10s. |
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:35:00 -
[36]
Edited by: AMatay on 09/07/2011 00:36:04 Edited by: AMatay on 09/07/2011 00:35:36 if anyone interested in getting gallente some attention could support this thread in the csm forums we may get heard, it has a fair ammount of support behind it already http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1451393&page=8 |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:44:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 00:45:24
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14
Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it.
That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game.
The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately.
It is here that I have to, to some degree, disagree with your opinion. Although I am certain that some players maybe able to cope and use versatile builds to compensate. It is imperative to view the disadvantages of the system. It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance.
I spent quite some time putting together those spreadsheets to show the differences of our paper math. Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills.
"Oh well, EFT says with perfect skills and overheating a megathron can get in range to apply this much dmg." - many arguments... Load that up in a skill plan for me, all level 5. Then explain to me how that is viable when a large percentage of pvp'ers don't have it. Or if they do, they are not wasting that much SP flying anything under a capital for pvp.
TL;DR - The purpose of this change isn't to solely effect those with years of training in hybrids. The main goal is to make leveling and using them from start to finish viable. |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 00:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kumq uat
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills? T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
WTF do you think? I have only been here since fricken 2005. Of course I used t2 modules and faction ammo.And yes, kick ass drone skills too.
One should not think so highly of themselves, thereby imputing ass holyness upon themselves thinking other people can read their minds. |
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 01:03:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Digital Messiah It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance.
Oh, you got me wrong there. It wasnt meant that way, I should probably have elaborated on that a bit.
The main issues with hybrid turrets and their platforms in combat is that the type of tactics they traditionally use is not well-suited for the current game environment.
You cannot change that fact without completely breaking their flavour, unless player mindset changes. That does mean the mindset of both the hybrid user, as well as the mindset of his targets.
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills.
Veterans typically complain about old tactics not working well anymore, something I am guilty of aswell. That doesnt mean this is necessarily a bad thing though.
As far as the skill question goes, I fully agree there. Hybrid platforms have insane demand in fitting skills, most of my fits require completely maxed out fitting skills and even then some sacrifice is there somewhere. The fits themselves do work, even in the new era, but are not very accessibly to the new player. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 01:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 00:45:24
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 09/07/2011 00:03:14
Originally by: Digital Messiah But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Not much really. Most hybrid platforms need a little more pg, or the turrets less pg requirements. A slight bump around 5% in raw damage output maybe as icing on the cake, thats it.
That goes for medium and large hybrids, smalls are perfectly fine as is and the ships that use them among the most powerful in game.
The most important part in 'fixing hybrids' is actually 'fixing the players', which is beyond the power of CCP unfortunately.
It is here that I have to, to some degree, disagree with your opinion. Although I am certain that some players maybe able to cope and use versatile builds to compensate. It is imperative to view the disadvantages of the system. It is not fair to provide a theory based on player skill alone either. Otherwise it would be easy to deduce that all minmatar pilots were inherently better skilled because of their performance.
I spent quite some time putting together those spreadsheets to show the differences of our paper math. Before posting please assume that on average pilot skill isn't pro, there maybe a problem with something that even talented veterans complain about, and not everyone who plays this game has all level 5 skills in turret support and ship skills.
"Oh well, EFT says with perfect skills and overheating a megathron can get in range to apply this much dmg." - many arguments... Load that up in a skill plan for me, all level 5. Then explain to me how that is viable when a large percentage of pvp'ers don't have it. Or if they do, they are not wasting that much SP flying anything under a capital for pvp.
TL;DR - The purpose of this change isn't to solely effect those with years of training in hybrids. The main goal is to make leveling and using them from start to finish viable.
I have those skills at 5 and it is still crap compared to everything else. |
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 01:55:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Kumq uat I have those skills at 5 and it is still crap compared to everything else.
Missiles are almost on par in pvp I hear. Back to the topic at hand. CCP, work on this now please. I promise we won't mind if you take time off of making more NEX items. |
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 04:47:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
really hope this issue is goign to get some attention, OP says that he recieved comfirmation that it will be, i would liek to know where this comformation is comign from so i could see it myself, and know what kind of time line were looking at for changes to be made |
P42ALPHA
Gallente nul-li-fy Usurper.
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 05:19:00 -
[43]
When it comes to frigs, destroyers, and cruisers I can only speak for Hybrids.
That said, all maxed out skill for hybrids, then some basic skills for Projectile. I have dumped the thought of ever using my blasters again. T1 Auto's make my blasters look like civilian guns without ammo(punt) |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 05:30:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 05:34:03
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
really hope this issue is goign to get some attention, OP says that he recieved comfirmation that it will be, i would liek to know where this comformation is comign from so i could see it myself, and know what kind of time line were looking at for changes to be made
http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1531757
I got directed to a response by CCP, that they are on a list. And so are sub capital hulls... When that item on that list gets addressed is what worries me.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1525620&page=5 ^ quotes origination. |
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:31:00 -
[45]
wow had to search through that second thread to find a little mention of hybrids, and i couldnt find it at all in the first thread maybe because its 3:30am here and words get blurry when theres that many of them. dosnet seem to be top priority with them at all, but hopefully we can get some fires burnign under them to get thigns done, as lookign through forum historys and the amount of threads that have been made over this issue its clear to see the attention is long overdo.
|
Speaker4 theDead
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:37:00 -
[46]
If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
|
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
Still waiting for you to make a point about something. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 06:54:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Kumq uat
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
Still waiting for you to make a point about something.
I have to agree with Kumq uat here, you haven't given a reason to why you like or dislike these proposed changes. Or for that matter given an opinion in relevance to this thread. I am sorry you are leaving eve, and you have decided to un-subscribe. But please join one of the many, many, I quit threads, instead of polluting this one. |
Cofidre
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 08:28:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11
Quote:
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject.
Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage! |
Centis Adjani
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 09:13:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Centis Adjani on 09/07/2011 09:14:27 Would make me a bit happy if the backlash of the turret cycle become fixed first.
If I Press F1, F2, F3, ... to stop shooting, the cycle dont stop imediate. It cycles further on for about 1/3 of a new cycle until it stops and I can initiate shooting a new target. This always bothers me.
And additional the waittime of 10 seconds for reloading/switching ammo bothers.
|
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 09:25:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Cofidre Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11
Quote:
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject.
Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage!
Antimatter Charge L kin-28 HP therm-20 HP base shield-32.8 base armor-34.0 Multifrequency LEM-28 HP therm-20 HP base shield-44.0 base armor-24.2 EMP L EM-36 Exp-8 kin-4 therm-0 base shield-41.6 base armor-24.6
Now let us compare dmg mods with the most powerful large turret selections. Blasters Neutron Blaster Cannon II Large/18.2 GJ/7,200+10,000m/7.875 s/4.2x/0.0433 rad/sec400 m/2363 MW61 tf Rails 425mm Railgun II Large/30 GJ/57,600+24,000m/9.563 s/3.3x/0.009625 rad/sec400 m/2625 MW77 tf Pulse Mega Pulse Laser II Large/ 40 GJ/ 24,000+8,000m/7.88 s/ 3.6x/0.03375 rad/sec 400 m/2750 MW53 tf Beam Mega Beam Laser II Large /65 GJ/ 48,000+16,000m/9.00 s/ 3.6x/0.0153125 rad/sec 400 m/3575 MW58 tf Tachyon Beam Laser II Large/ 95 GJ/ 52,800+20,000m/12.50 s/ 5.4x/0.0139205 rad/sec 400 m/4125 MW63 tf Autocannons 800mm Repeating Artillery II Large/0/4,800+19,200m/7.875 s/3.234x/0.0432 rad/sec400 m/2200 MW41 tf Artillery 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Large/0/38,640+35,000m/21.038 s/6.098x/0.01125 rad/sec400 m/3025 MW44 tf 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Large/0/48,000+35,000m/40.163 s/12.807x/0.009 rad/sec400 m/3575 MW47 tf
Since you are so quick to post non-sense. Please use this information to explain why these paper numbers look good and balanced. But do not perform so in game. Or perhaps you have undeniable evidence that there is nothing wrong with hybrids? |
Bevil Smyth
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 09:45:00 -
[52]
Dont feed the trolls digi!
Agreed that hybrids need love, and also by proxy gal too. They share all the pitfalls of other weapons (cap usage, reloadtimes, limited damagetypes) and have their own added on top.
balance hybrids first, then come back and look at gallente to see how any improvements change things. |
Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 09:58:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Cofidre Edited by: Cofidre on 09/07/2011 08:29:11
Quote:
I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject.
Maybe you should have checked "preview post" before posting and deleted it all. There is nothing wrong with hybrids, changing race might be better suited for you, perhaps an elf or a mage!
tsk tsk...
An elf is a race, a mage is a class! |
Hacra
Minmatar Cosmodynamics
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:09:00 -
[54]
There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:27:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 10:27:48
Originally by: Hacra There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards.
Hybrid turret experience? Which is why you have 3,752,158 sp trained in projectile turrets? If you are going to shoot down others through means of personal experience. Next time post with a character that proves you know what you're talking about. I almost forgot to mention you don't even have small hybrid turret level 1. |
Sundarpants
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 10:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: SilentSkills one word, neut, and overheat, use your imagination.
which one? |
TC wabbajack
Prosperity Through Violence Unprovoked Aggression
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:01:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 09/07/2011 10:27:48
Originally by: Hacra There's nothing wrong with hybrids, learn to fly noobtards.
Hybrid turret experience? Which is why you have 3,752,158 sp trained in projectile turrets? If you are going to shoot down others through means of personal experience. Next time post with a character that proves you know what you're talking about. I almost forgot to mention you don't even have small hybrid turret level 1.
the great "hybrids are suxor's pls fix" whine is mainly used by players who fail to realise the way they are intended to be used and the way player driven tactics/warfare are at odds.hybrids would benefit if the hulls designed to used them have their bonuses looked at and balanced so then you dont have to use gimped fits to compete with projectile hulls.a tackle or agilty bonus would make the world of diffrence to blaster barge for example
I doubt you will find many more hybrid specc'd players here
tl;dr hulls need a boost more than hybrids |
Sundarpants
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:09:00 -
[58]
Originally by: TC wabbajack
the great "hybrids are suxor's pls fix" whine is mainly used by players who fail to realise the way they are intended to be used and the way player driven tactics/warfare are at odds.hybrids would benefit if the hulls designed to used them have their bonuses looked at and balanced so then you dont have to use gimped fits to compete with projectile hulls.a tackle or agilty bonus would make the world of diffrence to blaster barge for example
I doubt you will find many more hybrid specc'd players here
tl;dr hulls need a boost more than hybrids
This. It's fairly obvious |
MBrace
Amarr Hikivirta Test Alliance Please Ignore
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
I respectfully disagree. Hybrids have a niche that is not the flavor of the month at the moment. That does not mean they are broken. I firmly believe that by making all guns exactly the same we would be dulling the PvP world completely. Less vanilla, more flavor please. |
White Tree
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 11:25:00 -
[60]
Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days.
I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong.
I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ |
|
AlleyKat
Gallente The Unwanted.
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 12:53:00 -
[61]
Originally by: White Tree Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days.
I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong.
I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ
Please do not change Hybrid weapons, just the attributes and bonuses of the ships that use them please.
If you want to look at the cause of the problem, please look at the patch notes and dev blogs.
"need for speed?" By Tuxford 2007.02.15
This was the lynchpin. They had an issue with speed and wanted to change it.
"speed rebalanced" by CCP Nozh 2008.07.25
This was the resulting change suggestions, which effectively killed off Gallente close range PvP - specifically the MWD and Web changes, but also the mass and agility.
I hate to sound like a stuck record, but there is nothing wrong with hybrid weapons - just the ships that use them.
give them web bonuses to (max) 90% give them mwd bonuses give them (minuscule) tracking increases
A Gallente close range PvP setup should be able to charge into its optimal range and keep someone there, whilst delivering it's DPS at point blank range.
It should NOT be able to be perpetually held at arms length, not being able to ever have a chance at getting into range, and when it does - it cannot reduce the transversal velocity of the other ship to affect blaster damage.
If anyone from CCP wants to jump on the test server, they would see what the problem is within five minutes flat and yet, here we are three years after the Gallente Nerf and nothing has been done.
I am firmly against changing entire weapon systems as this requires too much balancing and is unnecessary - just change the ship bonuses that matter.
Anything else is a waste of oxygen.
AK
|
Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 13:18:00 -
[62]
Im seconding for the sake of principle, but I dont expect CCP to actually do anything about hybrids. Balance be damned. |
Dorian Wylde
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 13:23:00 -
[63]
If blasters are actually going to be as advertised, they need to actually do the most damage, and have better tracking to be able to apply that damage.
I have no issue with railguns, they seem to be intended as the middle group turret, which is exactly what they are. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 14:30:00 -
[64]
Originally by: White Tree Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days.
I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong.
I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ
Although this information is very relieving. It does not mean we are not looking at a time frame of imaginable lengths. I to share your faith that the issue will be addressed. I only hope it is within this next calendar year.
I have yet to research the time it takes for CCP to change game data. Though it cannot be to unreasonable a task. What is stopping them from releasing small patches to test on SiSi? And why does every game balance change have to be so drastic it literally moves empires worth of skill points?
Lastly, thank you for making an appearance in our little thread. It is reassuring to see feedback from any and every source with a knowledgeable background. |
Pitt
Gallente Dashavatara
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 14:34:00 -
[65]
The problem with hybrids and Gallente are two fold. The ships that use the shortest range weapons are the slowest ships in game. The shortest ranged weapons aren't the most damaging in game. Add fitting requirements of both and you'll soon realize that the entire race (except the frigs) aren't worth buying or flying.
Pure neutron set-ups used to be glass cannons, dangerous to fly for both parties involved. In fact, almost all blaster set-ups were that way. Was a do or die philosophy if you will. Now it's just die. First blasters need more damage and/or tracking... by a good bit. By a good bit I mean that if you can get in range the other ship dies, period.
There are numerous posts all over the place filled with very good ideas on how to fix the hybrid/gallente problem. The fact that it is going on 3 years since this fiasco started and nothing has been done to resolve it is becoming the real problem...
|
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 15:10:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 15:16:12 Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 15:13:24 Not only are Gallente ships slow as hell with the shortest range weapons that use capacitor and get poor tracking for their range, but they get active repair bonuses on many ships that make it difficult to both active rep and fit a rack of ions, for most cases, you are relegated to an ion-electron mix. Did I mention active tanking pretty much sucks and that these ships lack the mids to do it properly while still webbing and disrupting their targets.
On the subject of webbing, in a blasterboat, with your lack of mids, you cannot dual web, so in most cases your opponent will return the webbing favor and be, gasp, faster than you.
Al in all, if you do manage to keep those guys in range, webbed, and pointed, your blasters should be good sized and actively ripping your opponent a new one.
Suggestion: Blasters (Medium + Large): 30% damage increase, 50% Tracking increase Rails (Dont know about small or XL, but for Medium + Large): 50% range bonus, 20% Tracking buff -15% to PG for all hybrid gun fitting requirements
EDIT: Active rep bonuses on ships with the bonus upped to 10% per level , so people use them.
EDIT 2: Kronos to 15% per level, it is a pretty ****ty ship anyway, give it some love. |
Ehranavaar
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 15:51:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
you seem to be. if you actually watch that vid of the laughable final match the only reason the winners survived was the prior agreement to throw the match. the first two vindicators went down hard and quickly. no reason to think the match would not have gone to the losing side without that agreement.
all in all rather a contemptible performance rather than the match anticipated. |
Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 15:57:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 15:16:12 Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 15:13:24 Not only are Gallente ships slow as hell with the shortest range weapons that use capacitor and get poor tracking for their range, but they get active repair bonuses on many ships that make it difficult to both active rep and fit a rack of ions, for most cases, you are relegated to an ion-electron mix. Did I mention active tanking pretty much sucks and that these ships lack the mids to do it properly while still webbing and disrupting their targets.
On the subject of webbing, in a blasterboat, with your lack of mids, you cannot dual web, so in most cases your opponent will return the webbing favor and be, gasp, faster than you.
Al in all, if you do manage to keep those guys in range, webbed, and pointed, your blasters should be good sized and actively ripping your opponent a new one.
Suggestion: Blasters (Medium + Large): 30% damage increase, 50% Tracking increase Rails (Dont know about small or XL, but for Medium + Large): 50% range bonus, 20% Tracking buff -15% to PG for all hybrid gun fitting requirements
EDIT: Active rep bonuses on ships with the bonus upped to 10% per level , so people use them.
EDIT 2: Kronos to 15% per level, it is a pretty ****ty ship anyway, give it some love.
those numbers were pulled out someones ass...way to much (gallente pilot) |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:11:00 -
[69]
Edited by: BiggestT on 09/07/2011 16:22:00
Originally by: White Tree I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ
Don't forget Caldari hybrid platforms, even though their performance indeed makes them easily forgettable
The problem is their THAT close to being passable.
The cal rail frigates can work in particular circumstances. The Rokh is almost a decent ship with a blaster fit and it has SO much potential to be a good rail platform. The cruisers/BC's are the worst. Already average ships made worse by poor weapons.
While suggestions to change individual ships may work, I think it more prudent just to improve rails and blasters themselves.
|
Wangston Hughes
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:20:00 -
[70]
Rails could use a DPS or volley damage increase. Other than that the issue is with hulls, not the guns. |
|
Speaker4 theDead
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:30:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Originally by: Kumq uat
Originally by: Speaker4 theDead If they fix gallente guns, it will just be another shiptype to train for fleet FOTM fits..
Still waiting for you to make a point about something.
I have to agree with Kumq uat here, you haven't given a reason to why you like or dislike these proposed changes. Or for that matter given an opinion in relevance to this thread. I am sorry you are leaving eve, and you have decided to un-subscribe. But please join one of the many, many, I quit threads, instead of polluting this one.
The point was, in 0.0 Fleet it's always an FOTM ship. Right now no one has to train Gallente unless they like to waste their time. if Gallente gets buffed, then everyone will have to train it for a new FOTM.
As for my Sig, those are the facts, sorry you don't like to see it, but it is a sandbox....
I have voiced my complaints about the changes in other threads, do you really want me to spam this one?
|
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:31:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Majuan Shuo
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 15:16:12 Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 15:13:24 Not only are Gallente ships slow as hell with the shortest range weapons that use capacitor and get poor tracking for their range, but they get active repair bonuses on many ships that make it difficult to both active rep and fit a rack of ions, for most cases, you are relegated to an ion-electron mix. Did I mention active tanking pretty much sucks and that these ships lack the mids to do it properly while still webbing and disrupting their targets.
On the subject of webbing, in a blasterboat, with your lack of mids, you cannot dual web, so in most cases your opponent will return the webbing favor and be, gasp, faster than you.
Al in all, if you do manage to keep those guys in range, webbed, and pointed, your blasters should be good sized and actively ripping your opponent a new one.
Suggestion: Blasters (Medium + Large): 30% damage increase, 50% Tracking increase Rails (Dont know about small or XL, but for Medium + Large): 50% range bonus, 20% Tracking buff -15% to PG for all hybrid gun fitting requirements
EDIT: Active rep bonuses on ships with the bonus upped to 10% per level , so people use them.
EDIT 2: Kronos to 15% per level, it is a pretty ****ty ship anyway, give it some love.
those numbers were pulled out someones ass...way to much (gallente pilot)
Confirming origin, though I think the blaster changes may be good. (Gallente pilot who would love to see blasters/hybrids overpowered for once) |
Onyx Blackman
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:32:00 -
[73]
Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses. |
AlleyKat
Gallente The Unwanted.
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:34:00 -
[74]
Originally by: BiggestT While suggestions to change individual ships may work, I think it more prudent just to improve rails and blasters themselves.
Hybrids worked just fine before the Gallente Nerf, even more so, they were one of the only balanced weapon systems in EVE.
The Gallente Nerf ended that.
Balance the ships, not the guns.
Anyone from CCP want to join me on the test server?
Yes, I am laying the Gauntlet, show me a setup on any close range Gallente PvP setup that works as intended on Tranquillity and I'll give you a years worth of subscriptions...for all of my accounts, any takers?
Money in my pocket burning a hole, please, take my money.
AK
PS: no backslash commands allowed. |
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:41:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 16:41:53
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses.
So blasters become poor autocannons that use cap on some ships...awesome. |
Onyx Blackman
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:48:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 16:41:53
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses.
So blasters become poor autocannons that use cap on some ships...awesome.
No. You're an idiot.
Blasters easily out DPS autocannons and have comparable if not better tracking than any autocannon except smalls, the issue is their range. Falloff as opposed to optimal gives them a far bigger working distance and allows a larger variety of ship setups. |
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 16:59:00 -
[77]
what id liek to see is the trackign penalty on the t2 ammo removed and have blaster boats get a bonus to there web range and velocity reduction. having longer and more powerful webs then other races would help close the gap between ships and let the blasters go to work. maybe a little more base speed to the galalnent ships as well since the armor tanks then generally rely on slow them down. right now flyign a gallente blaster boat is like having two broken legs and a knife tryign to chase down runners with guns |
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:16:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Edited by: Onyx Blackman on 09/07/2011 16:55:54
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 16:41:53
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses.
So blasters become poor autocannons that use cap on some ships...awesome.
No. You're an idiot.
Blasters easily out DPS autocannons and have comparable if not better tracking than any autocannon except smalls, the issue is their range and fitting requirements. Falloff as opposed to optimal gives them a far bigger working distance and allows a larger variety of ship setups.
Nevertheless, the whole point of blasters is that they have poor range and optimal, but make up for it in damage. Balancing it to give it a more similar engagement range and damage profile over that range is merely working to remove the differences between the weapons. By adding damage and tracking, we would be working to enhance those differences and not change the point of using blasters, but make them worth their drawbacks. |
Onyx Blackman
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:44:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Onyx Blackman on 09/07/2011 17:45:00
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Edited by: Onyx Blackman on 09/07/2011 16:55:54
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 16:41:53
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses.
So blasters become poor autocannons that use cap on some ships...awesome.
No. You're an idiot.
Blasters easily out DPS autocannons and have comparable if not better tracking than any autocannon except smalls, the issue is their range and fitting requirements. Falloff as opposed to optimal gives them a far bigger working distance and allows a larger variety of ship setups.
Nevertheless, the whole point of blasters is that they have poor range and optimal, but make up for it in damage. Balancing it to give it a more similar engagement range and damage profile over that range is merely working to remove the differences between the weapons. By adding damage and tracking, we would be working to enhance those differences and not change the point of using blasters, but make them worth their drawbacks.
It wouldn't change the 'point of using blasters', it would just make them viable. They would still provide the absolute face-raping DPS they're capable of now, but at engagement ranges that are in line with the current state of combat mechanics. Pulses give great DPS at long ranges with bad tracking, ACs give low DPS at flexible ranges with a variety of damage types with no cap usage, blasters would still give huge DPS at short ranges with amazing tracking and fairly high cap usage.
Giving them higher DPS is just redundant and ignoring the source of the problem. |
baltec1
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:49:00 -
[80]
Just to point out, I dont have too much of an issue getting the current blasters into range.
Carry on |
|
Solomon XI
Hidden Souls
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 17:52:00 -
[81]
Fixing Hybrids?
/Signed, Supported, And Encouraged. |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 18:00:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Edited by: Onyx Blackman on 09/07/2011 16:55:54
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 16:41:53
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses.
So blasters become poor autocannons that use cap on some ships...awesome.
I agree with the nice lady
No. You're an idiot.
Blasters easily out DPS autocannons and have comparable if not better tracking than any autocannon except smalls, the issue is their range and fitting requirements. Falloff as opposed to optimal gives them a far bigger working distance and allows a larger variety of ship setups.
Nevertheless, the whole point of blasters is that they have poor range and optimal, but make up for it in damage. Balancing it to give it a more similar engagement range and damage profile over that range is merely working to remove the differences between the weapons. By adding damage and tracking, we would be working to enhance those differences and not change the point of using blasters, but make them worth their drawbacks.
|
Mr Kidd
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 18:03:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 08/07/2011 19:22:51
VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT: to keep EVE interesting, weapons (and ships) need to be balanced by enhancing their differences. It would be terrible if things were balanced by making them more similar to each other.
Blasters uselessly short range CHECK Blasters useless tracking CHECK Blasters requiring ridiculous cap CHECK Blasters only 2 types of damage, can't choose which CHECK Rails same damage as above CHECK Rails almost no DPS CHECK Rails requiring ridiculous cap CHECK
Yep, differences are enhanced in hybrids. So, interesting you better hope your target either has 5 webs on him or isn't tanking.
|
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 18:19:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 09/07/2011 16:41:53
Originally by: Onyx Blackman Replace the garbage 7.5% repair bonuses on Gallente blasterboats with falloff bonuses.
So blasters become poor autocannons that use cap on some ships...awesome.
No. You're an idiot.
Blasters easily out DPS autocannons and have comparable if not better tracking than any autocannon except smalls, the issue is their range and fitting requirements. Falloff as opposed to optimal gives them a far bigger working distance and allows a larger variety of ship setups.
Nevertheless, the whole point of blasters is that they have poor range and optimal, but make up for it in damage. Balancing it to give it a more similar engagement range and damage profile over that range is merely working to remove the differences between the weapons. By adding damage and tracking, we would be working to enhance those differences and not change the point of using blasters, but make them worth their drawbacks.
It wouldn't change the 'point of using blasters', it would just make them viable. They would still provide the absolute face-raping DPS they're capable of now, but at engagement ranges that are in line with the current state of combat mechanics. Pulses give great DPS at long ranges with bad tracking, ACs give low DPS at flexible ranges with a variety of damage types with no cap usage, blasters would still give huge DPS at short ranges with amazing tracking and fairly high cap usage.
Giving them higher DPS is just redundant and ignoring the source of the problem.
Pulses absolutely do not have bad tracking. Dunno where you got that. I have used Pulses myself to great effect on taking down speeding interceptors. |
Onyx Blackman
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 19:30:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Onyx Blackman on 09/07/2011 19:37:22
Originally by: Kumq uat
Pulses absolutely do not have bad tracking. Dunno where you got that. I have used Pulses myself to great effect on taking down speeding interceptors.
Compare baseline tracking speeds. It's the lowest among the short range turret classes. Medium Heavy Pulses sit at about .08, medium neutrons and 425mm ACs at about .1. |
Wangston Hughes
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 20:22:00 -
[86]
Quote: Pulses absolutely do not have bad tracking. Dunno where you got that. I have used Pulses myself to great effect on taking down speeding interceptors.
They do have bad tracking when you compare them to autocannons and blasters, just like autocannons and blasters have bad optimals when compared to pulses. It's quite a bit lower. |
Bllizzard
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 20:28:00 -
[87]
Signed Change is needed! |
Hentes Zsemle
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 20:28:00 -
[88]
You could just end this thread, the sooner the better. CCP proved numerous times that they don't care about hybrids, nor balancing gallente in general. Theese threads are just giving people false hope. |
Selinate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.07.09 20:31:00 -
[89]
Originally by: SilentSkills Edited by: SilentSkills on 08/07/2011 22:10:44 I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
erm.... We're talking about a Retribution here. Let me put it into context for you: A retribution can't tackle you.
So basically, a retribution SHOULD wipe the floor with you, otherwise, us amarr need a god damn second mid slot.
|
Keen Fallsword
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 02:12:00 -
[90]
Yes yes !! Fix gallente. I dont know how they could won any war !! Anyone knows ? ;)
And what unplayable race is doing in ccp trailers ?? Ccp lies ? Cant be !!! |
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:48:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Hentes Zsemle You could just end this thread, the sooner the better. CCP proved numerous times that they don't care about hybrids, nor balancing gallente in general. These threads are just giving people false hope.
The more we bring this to light, the faster it will be resolved. They can not completely ignore blatantly obvious flaws. |
Mors Sanctitatis
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 03:52:00 -
[92]
I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now...
Blasters are awesome! |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 04:02:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now...
Blasters are awesome!
Sure we have brought it up, time and time again. But have we ever broken into cold hard facts? Kept sprinting head first guns blazing at the forums? Are we rogue drones, or are we... capsuleers!
Cheesy RP "BS" aside. I honestly don't think CCP knows what to do about them. They are probably afraid they will upset the balance of the game like they had before. And now that it requires a large amount of work to fix... Well I am trying to make it a higher priority of theirs. That at least has some merit to it. Either tonight or tomorrow I am going to attempt to make another spreadsheet comparing ship types. Perhaps that will help us understand the major changes that could be made more easily.
I do not disregard all the wonderful ideas about fixing hybrids. I am just uncertain to whether they are the end all or best route. More research must be done in the name of science! So lets do science. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 04:13:00 -
[94]
Originally by: MBrace Edited by: MBrace on 09/07/2011 11:19:54
Originally by: Digital Messiah Edited by: Digital Messiah on 08/07/2011 20:51:09 I wasn't sure how to best approach this subject. As I have already received confirmation that the issue was being addressed. I have come to the conclusion that something this game changing should simply be addressed sooner. But how much really needs to be changed to balance out hybrid turrets?
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences between all "tech 1 and tech 2" Turrets (not missiles). "Tech 1 Turret stats" - "Tech 2 Turret stats" Enjoy and rally here, for a brighter and hybrid friendly future!
My vote goes to fixing turret balance issues and bugs before another ship is introduced. Why make new ships if what we are flying already is broken?
Edit for: Now with tech 2 spreadsheet!
I respectfully disagree. Hybrids have a niche that is not the flavor of the month at the moment. That does not mean they are broken. I firmly believe that by making all guns exactly the same we would be dulling the PvP world completely. Less vanilla, more flavor please.
Edit - What TC said ^
Can you show us what month the Hybrids were flavor of? Which month was that one please show us all. |
Tuggboat
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 04:38:00 -
[95]
TIred of balnce, it always ends in a nerf and all nerfs make the game less fun to play.
I agree the ships need attention, It looks to me like native hardness especially on the damage type holes could use buffed to allow a gallente ship to get into range.
Some extra mids on non drone boats for dampeners to pull in ships would be nice.
Rails need a new sound effect.
so do blasters.
Something needs to compensate for damage types,
blaster could be area of effect weapons but focused into a cone.
Blaster optimal could be increased to go along with the shotgun style I proposed. A hit with a blaster ought to really hit hard for most of the time it hits. Taking out some nearby drones or frigs would be a nice bonus
Rails with sentry drones balance pretty nice but its a lot of training, rails fitting need should come down.
I'm sue I missed things but these are buffs instead of nerfs. Only thing I want nerfed is monocles, wearers should lose 2 or 3 perception training points cause of poor mechanical vision. |
Mors Sanctitatis
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 07:58:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Originally by: Mors Sanctitatis I've been saying blasters need to get fixed for.. oh... about four years now...
Blasters are awesome!
Sure we have brought it up, time and time again. But have we ever broken into cold hard facts? Kept sprinting head first guns blazing at the forums? Are we rogue drones, or are we... capsuleers!
Cheesy RP "BS" aside. I honestly don't think CCP knows what to do about them. They are probably afraid they will upset the balance of the game like they had before. And now that it requires a large amount of work to fix... Well I am trying to make it a higher priority of theirs. That at least has some merit to it. Either tonight or tomorrow I am going to attempt to make another spreadsheet comparing ship types. Perhaps that will help us understand the major changes that could be made more easily.
I do not disregard all the wonderful ideas about fixing hybrids. I am just uncertain to whether they are the end all or best route. More research must be done in the name of science! So lets do science.
If you go back and research all the blaster threads, and I mean literally years ago, you'll find TONS of threads with insanely detailed graphs put together by some pretty capable math guys showing where blasters fall short (no pun intended lol).
The main issue has been the lack of peak DPS at short range and the completely broken tracking now that webs are only 60% instead of 90%. I used to be one of the biggest Hyperion users in the game and as soon as the webs were nerfed I lost 1-2 Hypes in the first 48 hours after the patch and never used one again.
The day they fix blasters is the day I'll start playing again. |
Raikov Vanskenski
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 08:51:00 -
[97]
Can we please get a Dev response in this thread? The fact that an entire race of EVE has been severely gimped for over 3 years is extremely disheartening... |
Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 09:13:00 -
[98]
One idea to consider, what if you lower the damage extremely low on the hybrids but give them a percentile chance to penetrate shields and armor and go straight for the hull. It's a little bit, all or nothing and i'm not 100 percent ok with the idea myself but something to consider and discuss. Another idea would be if they did heat damage to the modules like you get from over heating. Or up the fire rate on them and cause "knock" so the target can't align and warp out. Something.
In any case I think the largest issues along with the tracking and everything that has been said here, is also the fitting and the capacitor use. Up the PG and cap/cpu on Gallente/Caldari ships or lower the requirements.
|
Laedy
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 09:40:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
LOL
I'm keeping that Vindicator as a trophy ship. Although, I've been thinking if blasters actually do get buffed I'm actually going to take out that beautiful ship for some PVP, and hopefully make glorious (real, not faked) battles in it
|
Inserith Peon
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:15:00 -
[100]
+1 to fixing the ships before changing the actual weapon stats. Eagle anyone? |
|
M0GWAI
Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:31:00 -
[101]
i love my blasters and wouldn't mind a fix or make some explosive ammo for them, but i guess that would make them op as hell instead |
Keen Fallsword
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:45:00 -
[102]
Originally by: M0GWAI i love my blasters and wouldn't mind a fix or make some explosive ammo for them, but i guess that would make them op as hell instead
Small, medium or large ? |
M0GWAI
Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 11:59:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Keen Fallsword
Originally by: M0GWAI i love my blasters and wouldn't mind a fix or make some explosive ammo for them, but i guess that would make them op as hell instead
Small, medium or large ?
i mostly use mediums, but small and large as well |
Mr Kidd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 12:18:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Nevertheless, the whole point of blasters is that they have poor range and optimal, but make up for it in damage. Balancing it to give it a more similar engagement range and damage profile over that range is merely working to remove the differences between the weapons. By adding damage and tracking, we would be working to enhance those differences and not change the point of using blasters, but make them worth their drawbacks.
I can't speak for other people. But, I agree, Blasters should not be the same as other weapons in their characteristics. However, if making Blasters different than other race weapons CCP has given them several disadvantages making them less effective than they should be.
Lets compare disadvantages:
Blasters:
1) Short range 2) Large cap reqs. 3) Tracking 4) Lack of damage types
HAMs:
1) Short range
See a problem here? Even with HAMs' short range, that range is far superior to blaster range. I don't think many of us want all guns to be the same. But, it would be great if there weren't such disparities. I'd be happy if CCP would improve tracking for blasters and I'd be happy to deal with the rest of the short comings if a traversal speed of 200m/s didn't mean I would completely miss my target.
Once you move from light blasters to medium, tracking issues are magnitudes of order worse. And that is a real shame because while I'm dealing with cap, range and tracking having to jockey to maintain range between 1Km and 3Km for a target varying his speed and direction constantly in my Proteus, that target, a tengu pilot, only has to deal with pressing a button to get his kill. That's the disparity. His shots are ALWAYS going to hit their target and for near maximum damage. My shots are going to have a 50/50 chance of doing the same thing if he's varying speed and direction.
Ultimately, as a Gallente pilot using blasters there is much more burden placed on him to be able to get decent dps and decent tank while still being required to also tackle a target and land shots all while maintaining cap.
I'm all for race specific limitation and drawbacks on weapons. But, unfortunately, Gallente seem to have more than others. |
BiggestT
Caldari Amarrian Retribution
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:35:00 -
[105]
Originally by: AlleyKat Hybrids worked just fine before the Gallente Nerf, even more so, they were one of the only balanced weapon systems in EVE.
The Gallente Nerf ended that.
Balance the ships, not the guns.
No you keep forgetting that hybrids are not a weapon exclusive to gallente!
When has a caldari railboat ever been awesome? Only the rokh was passable, being an okay sniper some years back; but none were ever awesome. Rails sucked even before the web nerf.
Srop focusing on ONLY blasters and ONLY gallente when you're suggesting hybrid balance ideas. Change the weapons, it's easier and more applicable. |
Infinity Ziona
Minmatar Cloakers
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 13:46:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 10/07/2011 13:50:44
Originally by: AlleyKat Fix the ships, not the guns they use.
this. blasters are fine, the problem is the armor tanking bricks bonused to use them.
rails I never really used so cant comment on them. |
Nal Tsuruomo
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 14:38:00 -
[107]
Hybrids definitely need a buff. I see a lot of people talking about giving ships some sort of web bonus or MWD bonus... in most cases that just won't work. Those kinds of changes would just be band-aids. Yes hybrid wielding ships would be better if you left hybrids alone and buffed the ships... but imo both really need some minor tweaks to make them work.
Instead of some new fancy ship bonuses, simply reduce the mass or increase the base speed and agility of blaster wielding ships (or whatever you do to make them faster and more agile).
Blasters need slightly better optimal range, and quite a bit more tracking. Additionally the fitting requirements need to be looked at again. Some of the medium sized rails and blasters simply have non-nonsensical fitting requirements.
Dual 150mm Railgun II: 35 cp / 84 pg (doesn't cost nearly enough PG) 200mm Railgun II: 39 cpu / 189 pg (costs waaay too much) 250mm Railgun II: 44 cpu / 236 pg (costs waaay too much)
Same goes for medium sized blasters. A thorax that is fit with the cheapest (pg requirements) tank possible still can only fit a rack of IONs. If you want a decent tank/buffer you HAVE to fit electrons. This just doesn't make sense for a ship designed to primarily provide DPS through blasters.
Finally, medium rails fail in just about every way. Every other cruiser / bc long ranged weapon system (or short ranged weapons with long ranged ammo) beats out medium rails hands down. Want to fly a rail Brutix? You're better off flying a barrage loaded Rupture.
|
Ranga Sarn
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 15:58:00 -
[108]
bump bump bump :)
Yes +1000000000000000000 for this thread ! FULL SUPPORT for OP |
Wangston Hughes
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 16:03:00 -
[109]
Edited by: Wangston Hughes on 10/07/2011 16:03:03 The problem isn't with ship speed or agility. Getting into range usually isn't a big problem, but the bat**** insane fitting requirements and low powergrid on hybrid hulls effectively prevent them from fitting any significant tank if they want to do adequate damage. And you'll probably be primaried before you have the chance to use them to great effect. Tracking and falloff should be increased, PG requirements reduced, and the terrible T2 hybrid ammos should probably be reworked entirely. |
Saul Perry
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 16:19:00 -
[110]
Yes I think part of the problem with fixing these guns is that it's hard to even know what to do. CCP is probably scared to try.
That said, there has been a lot of good suggestions already in this thread (ship bonuses mostly. MWD bonuses. Web bonuses. PG reduction).
Also, it seems like every MMORPG player ever wants DPS, DPS, DPS, and so many are dissapointed with blasters since they are the best dps in the game (ha) on paper but it just doesn't actually happen. Then, they forget that rails are also broken, becasue, hey who cares.
But make no mistake, rails need love too.
My Rails suggestion...
Somewhat lower powergrid requirements Lower resolution (it's be nice to see rails getting good 'sniper' role bonuses like this. Probably as a ship bonus) |
|
Scorn Gojira
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 16:52:00 -
[111]
Signed.
FIX BLASTERS.
Terrible right now. |
Sekket
Caldari White-Noise
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:11:00 -
[112]
Edited by: Sekket on 10/07/2011 17:12:24 It's the ships and ammo that are the problem mostly. Rails, however, certainly need their fitting requirements lowered.
Gallente hulls have very poor capacitor stats, poor cpu/powergrid, pretty terrible speed and maneuverability, and are hull heavy. The last point kinda screws gallente pilots out of a lot of EHP because if they try and tank resistances they won't benefit from their lows/rigs as much due to there being only one module that affects hull resistance, and to use it you need to sacrifice a low that will either help you more as additional armor or resistances. Trying to fit Gallente ships for speed and maneuverability hits their EHP hard being at once armor tanking and light in armor amount over hull.
The hybrid platform, in general has nothing going for it. The stats are comparable to the other weapon systems, hybrids don't have any special feature that makes them stand out. Projectiles can do all damage types and require no cap, lasers can change crystals instantly, and missiles can be switched between all damage types, use no cap, and are somewhat guaranteed to do some damage to the target. Hybrids use a lot of cap, are limited to two damage types, and are plagued by all the other turret problems. Worse, since the ships that typically mount them are suffering from fitting problems and have to give up slots that could be used for tracking and damage mods in order to fit hybrids in the first place.
Other than ship specific bonuses, there is no reason to mount hybrids.
Edit:grammar |
Eyup Mi'duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 17:37:00 -
[113]
So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
|
AlleyKat
Gallente The Unwanted.
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:04:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
Already worked my way through minmater and caldari, working on amarr stuff now. Partially because of this, partially because of wishing to fly more than one race anyway for variety but truth be told, I am running out of stuff to train for anyway, and do not want to fly capital ships.
AK |
Saul Perry
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:11:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Lucky for you I have put together a spreadsheet to show the differences ...
I've been playing around with that spreadsheet in excel to try to bring out some of these differences more clearly.
In particular, it's interesting to take the tracking speed and turn it into an actual m/s of tracking at optimal, optimal +1/2 falloff, and optimal + falloff. Blasters start to look really bad if you do.
Also interesting to consider how effective tracking in m/s changes as you move through the range, since it's pretty easy to keep tracking or damaging well if you fall outside the 'sweet spot' for a weapon the shoots well at 25km but nigh impossible to do so when your 'sweet spot' is so narrow at short range and you basically gotta be charging in just to START applying damage and can so easily blow right through that 'sweet spot' if you are lucky enough to get in range.
|
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:18:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Ein Phantom
Originally by: Krixtal Icefluxor Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor on 08/07/2011 19:21:31
Originally by: Ein Phantom All of you fools don't know how to calculate DPS and compare turrets.
Look, a Vindicator won the last Alliance Tournament, are you STUPIT1?!@?#@#4/%??#!?@#!?@#?!!!!!!!?!?!?!
Have you ever actually USED Hybrids ?? Nuclear Reactors look GREAT on paper, but here comes a little wave............
Speak from EXPERIENCE. PLEASE.
Also, nobody really WON that Alliance Tourney you Fool. It was a publicly admitted farce, that performance with the Vindicator. Are you stupid ?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?
Last reply to you: for methinks Troll IS Troll.
Hook, line, and sinker.
No matter how bad the troll, these forums always come up with someone to feed them |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:20:00 -
[117]
Originally by: SilentSkills Edited by: SilentSkills on 08/07/2011 22:10:44
Originally by: Wa'roun Edited by: Wa''roun on 08/07/2011 22:09:15
Originally by: Kumq uat I have all tons of skills in Gallente and Hybrids. By all rights I should kick ass. I did a one on one against a friends Retribution in my Ishkur. He ripped me apart. Tracking on lasers is sick to go with the damage. My blasters on the other hand were borked.
Blasters, for how close you have to get and everything, should be absolute face melters. No real fall off or range but they should kick out incredible damage. Instead they are out classed by projectiles and lasers who have numerous advantages over them. I mean seriously, fix this.
Did you fit a web and scram? What level drone skills?
My Ishkur > Retri T2 blasters? Meta 4? Faction or T2 ammo? TD?
So many unknowns here.
one word, neut, and overheat, use your imagination.
Why would an ishkur ever get in neut range of a retribution? Anyway enyo is the blaster af, use that to test, not the drone boat. |
Saul Perry
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:23:00 -
[118]
Here is part of what I cam up with working with that spreadsheet. All turrets sorted by their tracking speeds in m/s at 1/2 optimal (where most ammo is) + 1/2 falloff
Sorted from worst to Best
Electron Blaster Cannon II Ion Blaster Cannon II Heavy Electron Blaster II Dual 250mm Railgun II 350mm Railgun II Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Heavy Ion Blaster II 425mm Railgun II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Dual 150mm Railgun II Quad Light Beam Laser II Heavy Neutron Blaster II 200mm Railgun II 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 250mm Railgun II Dual Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Beam Laser II Light Electron Blaster II 650mm Artillery Cannon II Tachyon Beam Laser II Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II Dual 425mm Autocannon II Focused Medium Beam Laser II Light Ion Blaster II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II 425mm Autocannon II Heavy Pulse Laser II 75mm Gatling Rail II 220mm Vulcan Autocannon II 125mm Railgun II Light Neutron Blaster II 280mm Howitzer Artillery II Dual 180mm Autocannon II 150mm Railgun II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II Medium Beam Laser II Gatling Pulse Laser II Dual Light Beam Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II 200mm Autocannon II Medium Pulse Laser II 150mm Light Autocannon II 125mm Gatling Autocannon II
|
Eyup Mi'duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:34:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Saul Perry Edited by: Saul Perry on 10/07/2011 18:28:34
Here is part of what I cam up with working with that spreadsheet. All turrets sorted by their tracking speeds in m/s at 1/2 optimal (where most ammo is) + 1/2 falloff
Sorted from worst to Best
Electron Blaster Cannon II Ion Blaster Cannon II Heavy Electron Blaster II Dual 250mm Railgun II 350mm Railgun II Neutron Blaster Cannon II 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II Heavy Ion Blaster II 425mm Railgun II 1200mm Artillery Cannon II Dual 150mm Railgun II Quad Light Beam Laser II Heavy Neutron Blaster II 200mm Railgun II 720mm Howitzer Artillery II 250mm Railgun II Dual Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Beam Laser II Light Electron Blaster II 650mm Artillery Cannon II Tachyon Beam Laser II Dual Heavy Pulse Laser II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Heavy Beam Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery II Dual 425mm Autocannon II Focused Medium Beam Laser II Light Ion Blaster II Focused Medium Pulse Laser II 425mm Autocannon II Heavy Pulse Laser II 75mm Gatling Rail II 220mm Vulcan Autocannon II 125mm Railgun II Light Neutron Blaster II 280mm Howitzer Artillery II Dual 180mm Autocannon II 150mm Railgun II 250mm Light Artillery Cannon II Medium Beam Laser II Gatling Pulse Laser II Dual Light Beam Laser II Dual Light Pulse Laser II 200mm Autocannon II Medium Pulse Laser II 150mm Light Autocannon II 125mm Gatling Autocannon II
edit - Oh and just to put some additional perspective in here. the differences are not small (for a stat which should almost be uniform). The best and worst are different by a factor of 5 times
OK so has anyone tried stacked tracking mods with hybrids?
Get over it! Learn from your mistake and move on. |
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 18:40:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
and on the note of trackign mods to use them you gimp your tank tackle or dps, possibly all 3 at once, and since the base trackign is so low you dont get very much of an increase at all.
|
|
Chronix Beebelbrox
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:22:00 -
[121]
Yes, fix them.
|
Kehro Urgus
Gallente Ab Obice Saevior
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 20:50:00 -
[122]
Just finished up Large Hybrids 5 and currently use a Navy Domi or Ishtar to run l4 missions. Was poking around in EVE HQ to see my Navy Domi gets only slightly better DPS with t2 large dual 250's as it does with its current rack of t2 250 mediums. Not at all worth it with training times and ammo cost and trying the heavier calibre large hybrids just ate up the powergrid and cap. Also have a Navy Megathron laying around. With large blasters, nice dps and all but functionally useless unless swarmed and with large rails only slightly better than my domi with medium t2.
Then I tried a hyperion fit in EVE HQ. Glad I dont own one.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:30:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 10/07/2011 21:32:08 The root of the issue is more expansive than simply the turrets. As a response to the mention of caldari hybrid systems. It is only fair to add them into this discussion as well. Though it would be beneficial to keep all missiles talk out of it.
It also should be noted. That the rokh can not even fit 425's without a PDS,RCU, or ACR. Which is strange seeing as it is supposed to be a hybrid long range platform. It is harder to properly fit hybrid platforms than Tachyon Beam Laser II's on an abaddon / apocalypse. And even though you have to use power grid boosters to fit tachyon's. It is only because of the vast difference between Tach's and Mega's.
Tachyon Beam Laser II - Large - 95 - GJ - 52,800+20,000m - 12.50 s - 5.4x - 0.0139205 rad/sec - 400 m - 4125 MW - 63 tf 425mm Railgun II - Large - 30 GJ - 57,600+24,000m - 9.563 s - 3.3x - 0.009625 rad/sec - 400 m - 2625 MW - 77 tf 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II - Large - 0 GJ - 48,000+35,000m - 40.163 s - 12.807x - 0.009 rad/sec - 400 m - 3575 MW - 47 tf
It costs more CPU to use 425mm Railgun II's than Tachyon Beam's or 1400mm's. The damage mod is comparably lower than Tachyon's for their ROF. The 1400mm's have amnesty seeing as they have a 40.163 second ROF. They also cost more power grid than the other two. Now after reading that last sentence you might be thinking "2625 MW? Something doesn't make sense..." But when you consider.
rank 3 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Abaddon: 700/26250 Maelstrom: 800/26250 Hyperion: 750/19687.5 Rokh: 975/18750
rank 2 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Apocalypse: 631.25/25625 Tempest: 687.5/19375 Megathron: 687.5/19375 Raven: 875/11875
rank 1 CPU/PG (level 5 skills) Armageddon: 606.25/20625 Typhoon: 750/15625 Dominix: 750/11250 Scorpion: 937/11250
You can see that all of the Gallente ships suffer from lack of power grid. Now what I can't understand is why an armor tank based ship would be lacking so greatly in power grid? CCP must of realized that even by lowering the cost of turrets for this race. People would be faced with fitting issues when it came to tanking. It isn't like Gallente gets a reduction to fitting hull and armor modules. The amount of CPU given, even to the drone boats. Does not make up for the cost of simply fitting hybrids on these ships. And drone modules cost a lot of CPU on their own. The increased CPU cost removes the ability to use Weapon Upgrades in and of themselves.
Things get worse when you compare the ideals for which these ships are meant to be used. As a sniping vessel, they are meant to out run/maneuver their opponent. Which is why scram/webifiers exist. Although you don't even require either to catch up or keep pace with them. Which is where the agility and m/s factors in.
The tracking is either lacking or on par for any other turret platform. While blasters lack optimal which is necessary to properly apply dps. And Hybrids are lacking in damage modification. Not including other factors that we see, which is why they lack comparable performance.
Ammo fits into funny use and categories. As tech 2 variations both have a negative percentage, range modifying, variant. Rails have some understanding when it comes to having a variation that reduces range for damage. But -75% is beyond extreme considering they are a sniping niche. The idea of blasters being given less range is simply ridiculous. Null should not give a pilot less range when blasters are already the lowest and comparably worse ranged turrets. Projectile and Lasers have the advantage of at least being able to properly boost their optimal or falloff respectively. Allowing for modification to take a far greater effect.
With all of this in mind it is easy to see how to balance Gallente. A small boost to areas that are disabling proper performance and fitting, tweaking turrets, and improving ship agility and speed. And we would still have our unique ammo damage and niche's. I say SiSi tests 2% changes until balanced.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:40:00 -
[124]
Quote: Things get worse when you compare the ideals for which these ships are meant to be used. As a sniping vessel, they are meant to out run/maneuver their opponent. Which is why scram/webifiers exist. Although you don't even require either to catch up or keep pace with them. Which is where the agility and m/s factors in.
This was meant to say sniping and close combat vessel. But I ran out of room and having trouble editing this portion properly.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Eyup Mi'duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:41:00 -
[125]
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
Get over it! Learn from your mistake and move on. |
Ur235
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:49:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Ur235 on 10/07/2011 21:49:44
Originally by: TC wabbajack
the great "hybrids are suxor's pls fix" whine is mainly used by players who fail to realise the way they are intended to be used and the way player driven tactics/warfare are at odds.hybrids would benefit if the hulls designed to used them have their bonuses looked at and balanced so then you dont have to use gimped fits to compete with projectile hulls.a tackle or agilty bonus would make the world of diffrence to blaster barge for example
I doubt you will find many more hybrid specc'd players here
tl;dr hulls need a boost more than hybrids
Think again all of my hybrid skills are lvl 5, I used to do ok with my Deimos when they didnt speed nerf the Gallente I mean wth were u thnking ccp. Im so tired of taking all that effort to get in range of a zealot only to do slightly more dmg and him being able to burn out of my range even with a warp scrammer on my ship. I mean he can literally slowboat out of my Scram range and Ive barely done enough dmg to him, then bam he turns on the mwd and im totally screwed
Fix it >_<
|
Ur235
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:55:00 -
[127]
Just to add to that point I dont want you to boost the hybrids so there almsot the same as lazers or autocannons I dunno maybe increase the tracking speed so we get more perfect hits than any other ship and dont miss half as much as we normally do that would certainly help us. Or decrease the other ships tracking speed and keep ours the same
Just do something
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 21:59:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
Not every one trained hybrids after the changes. And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance.
Lets take any classic rpg in mind here. Let's say you like playing a mage, while rogues and warriors are doing better. And rangers are doing great in one department but not so much in another. You love the look of the mage, the way magic spells come out, and your kicking cool outfit/style. Why should you not play what you want to? Because the other two outperform you in what you are supposed to be good at? Instead shouldn't the developers balance out the game to make mages more viable?
Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Dr Ming
Mindworks
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:04:00 -
[129]
Caldari are mostly fine, as shield tanks are in a really good place and missiles are in a really good place. The problem with their rail ships is 100% a "railguns and blasters suck" issue, as most of their hybrid ships are good ships with a weapon system that is so bad it simply drives them to use their missile boats instead. If hybrids were not garbage, then that would fix the Caldari side of the hybrid issue.
Hybrids are a mess, Gallente ships are a mess, armor rigs are a mess. When put together, it adds up to a disaster.
The web change messed blaster tracking up, and scan probe changes made extreme range sniping worthless.
Active local tank bonuses are worthless outside of corner cases. Active armor tanks are even more worthless since armor tanks don't have the Crystal option.
Armor rigs kill speed on a ship that needs to close. Speed rigs kill armor on a ship that needs to buffer.
Scoop and release not refreshing drone shields hurt Gallente blaster ships, and some of the bandwidth changes aimed at ships like the Eos resulted in the ship being garbage.
Hybrids are also not a very easy thing to fit on Gallente hulls.
High hybrid cap use makes them vulnerable to neuts, which would be fine if there was a payoff.
|
Eyup Mi'duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:25:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Digital Messiah And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance.
That's great, but if you do, then you have to accept their limitations as well.
Originally by: Digital Messiah Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own.
OK so you have a choice. Option 1: stay with what you've got and keep on complaining - you have zero control over the outcome and if CCP make any changes, it will be "soon" . Option 2: Retrain and fly something else - yes this will take a little time and effort, but YOU can make it happen. THAT is your choice!
Get over it! Learn from your mistake and move on. |
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 22:34:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: Digital Messiah And some people like the idea of training a race regardless of their current performance.
That's great, but if you do, then you have to accept their limitations as well.
Originally by: Digital Messiah Just because you play this game to be the best regardless of it meaning wearing a rusty suit of armor, or being shiny all the time. Doesn't mean everyone else wants to. And even though missioning is better money than mining. People still do it. Your opinions do not make a statement true. And you can not change the ideals of others. So it is best to consider the choices of others before criticizing them through your own.
OK so you have a choice. Option 1: stay with what you've got and keep on complaining - you have zero control over the outcome and if CCP make any changes, it will be "soon" . Option 2: Retrain and fly something else - yes this will take a little time and effort, but YOU can make it happen. THAT is your choice!
I am not complaining in the sense you have stated. I am simply finding fault with hybrid weapons. The only way to be above this effecting you is to have all weapon systems trained. And even if I could make it happen. I am going to assume this means play the game as you see fit "what is over powered atm". It doesn't mean I don't want this issue resolved for the changes it would make to pvp, pve, and the games economy.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:10:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck Blah blah blah
Please leave.
Your contribution to this thread is tantamount to 'So there's a problem with Gallente and hybrids? Ignore it; just train Minmatar and be like everyone else.'
Just go away.
|
Ehdward
Caldari Nex Exercitus Raiden.
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:34:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Ehdward on 10/07/2011 23:33:49
Originally by: White Tree Both the CSM and CCP are thoroughly informed on how Gallente and Hybrid weapons are performing extremely poorly in the game these days.
I am confident that CCP Tallest will eventually get around to looking at this problem. As far as I and a number of CSM members are concerned: CCP Tallest is a saint who walks on water and can do no wrong.
I am hopeful that Gallente and Hybrids will get looked at soonÖ
Don't forget Moas, Eagles, Rokhs, and Feroxes while you're at it.
|
Jaehawn
|
Posted - 2011.07.10 23:52:00 -
[134]
CCP isnt going to fix hybrids. They are going to spend your money on WoD and Dust 514. You all need to get used to it and live with it. You will eat what they feed you and play where they tell you. Its their money and they can play with it how they want too. Stop asking for things. Its not your game. So any post asking for any game improvement needs to be deleted and the user silenced. The great CCP has spoken and you have all fed on it. 100000 AUR might buy you a better hybrid turret if you ask nicely and remember to wipe your chin.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 00:18:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Jaehawn CCP isnt going to fix hybrids. They are going to spend your money on WoD and Dust 514. You all need to get used to it and live with it. You will eat what they feed you and play where they tell you. Its their money and they can play with it how they want too. Stop asking for things. Its not your game. So any post asking for any game improvement needs to be deleted and the user silenced. The great CCP has spoken and you have all fed on it. 100000 AUR might buy you a better hybrid turret if you ask nicely and remember to wipe your chin.
When it comes to implementing new features. And providing new content, sure I could agree with you. When it involves features and content that is already under review and being changed. Then I think your entire statement is trash. Please take your hate mongering for the game else where. And it would help to look into how developers actually develop a game.
If you hadn't kept up with what this thread is really about... We are trying to get this issue addressed sooner. And provide feedback on how to do so in an actually balanced, realistic, and reasonable manner.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 00:27:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
your comment perfectly proves the point of the thread, gallente are so far behind the other races that they should be avoided completely. if this isnt proof they need to be balanced nothing is
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 01:34:00 -
[137]
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck
Originally by: AMatay
Originally by: Eyup Mi'duck So Hybrids are cr4p? Train up something else instead!
At least you didn't invest in a BPO for mines like I did!
so 1/4th of the ships in the game shouldnt be used because they are crap and we should all jsut ignore them and train for things that work properly?
Yes! So why on earth do you insist on flying the crap ones? That's got to be the dumbest strategy.
your comment perfectly proves the point of the thread, gallente are so far behind the other races that they should be avoided completely. if this isnt proof they need to be balanced nothing is
Hear, hear!
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Luc Chastot
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 03:47:00 -
[138]
Why not just fix the ammo? Increased damage for all hybrid charges plus tracking bonuses for short range ammo and lower signature resolution for ranged ammo.
|
Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 07:58:00 -
[139]
I can't believe people rioted over freaking monocles yet there's no such outrage for a BROKEN aspect of the game. "Mors certa, hora incerta." |
Kewso
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 08:03:00 -
[140]
They need to fix smite clerics and need left axe also! And make it easier to earn master level xp!
Oh wait... -----------------------
A Dysfunctional Playground |
|
Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 09:35:00 -
[141]
Why CCP thought it would be a good idea to have two races using the same guns i dont know.
Amarr get lasers all to themselves Minmatar get projectiles all to themselves Caldari get missiles all to themselves (almost) Gallente get... well, nothing to themselves
If it were possible to do a major revamp, i'd change all Caldari ships to missiles and let Gallente be the sole Hybrid users.
Crazy i know, but its going to be a hell of a lot easier to balance a weapon system when TWO races arent dependent on the same weapon system. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - EVE: TESTING GROUNDS FOR WoD & DUST SINCE 2011 |
Jacque Cruix
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 09:51:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Skippermonkey
If it were possible to do a major revamp, i'd change all Caldari ships to missiles and let Gallente be the sole Hybrid users.
They have a common past, so it makes sense they have common weapon systems.
|
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 09:59:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Jacque Cruix
Originally by: Skippermonkey
If it were possible to do a major revamp, i'd change all Caldari ships to missiles and let Gallente be the sole Hybrid users.
They have a common past, so it makes sense they have common weapon systems.
Yes, and because effectively 99% of all hybrid ships are terrible (Gallente and Caldari), then the balancing does not require the Caldari weapon structure to be revamped.
Hmm.... Can anyone name a hybrid ship which does't have a better Minmatar counterpart?
|
Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 10:40:00 -
[144]
Gallente ships have weak sensor stregth.... high signatur radius... useless gunns
Final nail in gallente coffin was when moros was nerfed.
There is so mutch wrong with Gallente ships that i dont think it can be fixed.
R.I.P Gallente
|
Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 10:41:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Zey Nadar on 11/07/2011 10:46:30
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab I can't believe people rioted over freaking monocles yet there's no such outrage for a BROKEN aspect of the game.
CCP has proven they aren't interested in fixing gallente.
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Hmm.... Can anyone name a hybrid ship which does't have a better Minmatar counterpart?
Arazu/Lachesis.. for the scram range bonus.
|
Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 10:54:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Zey Nadar Edited by: Zey Nadar on 11/07/2011 10:46:30
Originally by: Seraph IX Basarab I can't believe people rioted over freaking monocles yet there's no such outrage for a BROKEN aspect of the game.
CCP has proven they aren't interested in fixing gallente.
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Hmm.... Can anyone name a hybrid ship which does't have a better Minmatar counterpart?
Arazu/Lachesis.. for the scram range bonus.
Dont help with scram bonus when gallente can be jammed by a civ. multi spectral jammer....
|
Walextheone
The Red Circle Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:03:00 -
[147]
The only good use for hybrid weapons is in w-space fighting at 0 on wormholes, but even in that specific situation, they've a real disadvantage to the other weapon systems.
@CCP: Please put some resources into fixing Gallente and Caladari hybrid boats
|
Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:13:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Tore Vest
Dont help with scram bonus when gallente can be jammed by a civ. multi spectral jammer....
And minmatar cant?
|
Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:24:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Zey Nadar
Originally by: Tore Vest
Dont help with scram bonus when gallente can be jammed by a civ. multi spectral jammer....
And minmatar cant?
Not so mutch...
|
Centis Adjani
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 11:51:00 -
[150]
Already posted at page 2 and raged there about the nerf of the 10 seconds timer for ammo switching. I think, 5 seconds for this should be quite enough. And I'm annoyed by the 1/3 new cycle backlash of the turrets if you want switch them off. If I switch an item off, I want to get it OFF. And not cycle further on to the end and then cycle further on for 1/3 of a new cycle.
About the Hybrids Regarding this topic I thought to give another weapon a try... So I fly this Gallente BC 'Myrmidon'. This ship has no hybrid weapon bonuses like other Gallente ships - only bonuses for drones. So no matter what type of turrets to fit.
Up from start I fittet 250mm Prototype Gauss Gun and used hybrid ammo. And always was angry because of the low damage they deal. And because of the damage type which is only Kinetic & Thermal for all ammo types. Additional I have skill 'Medium Hybrid Turret' to Lvl 4, use an Implant to increase the medium hybrid damage by 3% AND use TWO 'Magnetic Field Stabilizer II' in low slots. And last the ship use a RIG (dont know the name actually) to additional increase the damage of hybrid turrets. And with all these things still the damage is bad. Especially if you fight against Angels (Explosive damage needed) or Blood Raiders (EM damage needed).
Now I trained Medium Projectile Turrets this Saturday. Fitted 720mm 'Scout' Artillery instead the 250mm Gauss. Switched the 2 Field Stabilizers with 2 Gyrostabilizer II. First thing I realized: I got much more Energy left. This allow me to fit a better Tank, I couldn't fit before because of less Energy. NICE! :-) Second thing I realized - I can use appropriate ammo for the different enemies to deal especially the damage they are weak of. And the third, and this is really the affirmation that hybrid turrets in their actual design with this actual hybrid ammo are crap: I now deal more damage than before and this without a special RIG and without a special Implant and with a lower skill level ("Medium Projectile Turret" Lvl 3! - for Hybrid I own Lvl 4)
So in compare of Projectile Turrets to Hybrid Turrets, on a ship without any bonus for both of these Turret types:
The Projectile (with its ammo) is really good. Use less Energy so you can better Tank. Draws more damage to enemies than Hybrid - and this with a LOWER weapon skill, without Implants and without a special RIG.
And the Hybrid (with its ammo) is crap. You fit a damage increasing RIG to the ship, you fit an damage increasing implant, you have one level higher weapon skill and STILL this weapon stays bad.
I think, CCP should work on Hybrids in short steps. May be first, change some damage the different ammo types deal. So Gallente get some hybrid ammo to deal Exp and EM damage. Second, lower the energy need of the hybrid weapons a bit. Then take a look if this help. If not then do some other things which are already mentioned in postings here before.
|
|
Reathe
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:46:00 -
[151]
Sign me up, I too think Hybrids need to be looked at carefully.
When I first joined EVE I one of the reasons for the race selection was hybrid weapons. What I thought at the time was;
Lasers - long range, energy only, low dps.
Projectiles - shorter range, have to pay for ammo, high dps as a result.
Hybrid - Both energy and ammo needed, medium range and high dps.
So I chose Hybrid.
Fair enough it is a lot more complicated that those first thoughts but what I find now is .... that Hybrids just feel a bit disapointing. Not saying they are unuseable, they do work, they just don't feel as though they work as well as projectiles or lasers would in their place (even the ship bonuses being lost).
I also wonder why hybrid charges are twice the weight of projectile ammo. I imagine they should be a lot lighter as they lack the casing and charge in ammo. They are also more expensive to purchase.
|
Centis Adjani
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:53:00 -
[152]
I forgot to mention one thing in my previous posting.
For the Hybrids I used faction ammo. For the Projectiles I used the standard ammo so far.
|
Kehro Urgus
Gallente Ab Obice Saevior
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 12:56:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Centis Adjani I forgot to mention one thing in my previous posting.
For the Hybrids I used faction ammo. For the Projectiles I used the standard ammo so far.
Which makes it even more depressing.
|
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 17:10:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Kehro Urgus
Originally by: Centis Adjani I forgot to mention one thing in my previous posting.
For the Hybrids I used faction ammo. For the Projectiles I used the standard ammo so far.
Which makes it even more depressing.
yeah noticed pretty similar thigns myself when compairing mim ships to gallente even thoguh i have terrible projectile skills and hybrids up to large hybrid 2's the projectile ship si look at fitting all have very close dps if not better and always with better range tracking and damage choices.
|
SilentSkills
Gallente Tax Evaders Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:01:00 -
[155]
confirming that this thread is now 6 pages long, and CCP has said nothing yet. It's safe to assume blasters will not be fixed as they are "working as intended" The Monocle Definition
|
Galadriel Vasquez
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:18:00 -
[156]
As someone whos med hybrid turret 5 completes in the morning i was hoping for a decent return - seems not. Please mend this CCP.
|
Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:20:00 -
[157]
Originally by: SilentSkills confirming that this thread is now 6 pages long, and CCP has said nothing yet. It's safe to assume blasters will not be fixed as they are "working as intended"
Well, CCP Tallest has confirmed that both hybrids and Gallente ships are going to be looked at after he has completed the (much needed) Dramiel nerf, so I wouldn't quite say CCP are ignoring the issue. How seriously they are treating the hybrid/Gallente problem, and, by extension, how long it will be before they start working on fixes, remains to be seen.
|
Centis Adjani
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 18:34:00 -
[158]
As long as this will not happen, I'll train the Projectile Turrets further.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 20:28:00 -
[159]
Originally by: SilentSkills confirming that this thread is now 6 pages long, and CCP has said nothing yet. It's safe to assume blasters will not be fixed as they are "working as intended"
They know that hybrid turrets are not working as intended. The point of this thread was to petition changes sooner. It really is a huge part of this game. And needs to be addressed before changes to a single ship, "tengu", "dramiel", etc. I just hope CCP has at least read this. And knows that I will not rest, and will never find a lack of individuals with similar views, until this issue is addressed. The only problem I see so far. Is that I am going to be known as the guy who cried hybrid turrets .
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 21:07:00 -
[160]
Kinda sad for me, as someone who is a pure Gallente pilot, I would like my weapons system to work... Seriously, I have perfect gunnery skills for hybrids, and none of the ships I fly are fit for bringing on roams.
|
|
nartela
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 21:18:00 -
[161]
i say no to change they will only screw up anothere weapon system in the process of trying to fix them, i suggest you train for another weapon system or just work around the problem somehow.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.11 21:43:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 11/07/2011 21:43:14
Originally by: nartela i say no to change they will only screw up anothere weapon system in the process of trying to fix them, i suggest you train for another weapon system or just work around the problem somehow.
Demon Azrakel
20 million in hybrid turrets and support skills. And this person should just change their year worth of SP? So that this issue can continue until no one uses hybrids anymore? No, I think a fix is in order.
CCP this thread will continue on! Please respond letting us know you have at least considering making this a higher priority.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
BacTyrael
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 04:43:00 -
[163]
Please fix hybrids. I have been training them so far, love drones, love the idea of using the middle ground turret. They just need to be more middle ground and less underground. Also it is a pain to fit and use them compared to any other weapon system.
|
Rakamy
Quantum Cats Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 04:53:00 -
[164]
I agree, CCP needs to do something with them. As one of the major weapon systems (both Gallente and some Caldari) ships use hybrids, how ever the platform as a whole sucks and need's to be fixed, they are not worth using right now.
|
AMatay
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 05:07:00 -
[165]
i think we should all head to jita and start shooting the statue with hybrid weapons only! only problem is that we'd miss
|
Dark Reignz
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 06:11:00 -
[166]
Agree with this topic of discussion because not only will hybrid love bring gallente out there shell it also gives meaning back to flying caldari hybrid ships which are pretty much redundant other than the rare usless kill mail ***** that we currently see.
Also more to my liking... I WANT FCKIN UBAR RANGE BACK ON CALDARI MISSILES INCLUDING TORPS. Nerfing the damage to smaller ships was enough but the range nerf was a big mistake.
While your at it, nerf Supercaps damage to smaller ships too.
I thank you.
|
Mekkimaru
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 06:45:00 -
[167]
/signed
fix plox
was going to reply to clueless people on this thread, but decided to only waste the time typing this for them ------------------------------trolol Life is not about having a good hand, its about playing the hand you do have well. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 17:45:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Mekkimaru /signed
fix plox
was going to reply to clueless people on this thread, but decided to only waste the time typing this for them
Clueless people at least keep this thread bumped. Even if they sit there and mock people for choosing a race to play. Which is one of the most idiotic reasons to mock a player in eve.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Seraph IX Basarab
Gallente Haita de lupi ROMANIAN-LEGION
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 19:51:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
Originally by: SilentSkills confirming that this thread is now 6 pages long, and CCP has said nothing yet. It's safe to assume blasters will not be fixed as they are "working as intended"
Well, CCP Tallest has confirmed that both hybrids and Gallente ships are going to be looked at after he has completed the (much needed) Dramiel nerf, so I wouldn't quite say CCP are ignoring the issue. How seriously they are treating the hybrid/Gallente problem, and, by extension, how long it will be before they start working on fixes, remains to be seen.
I don't really even care about the Dramiel. It's a 60 mil frigate. That can wait. Hybrids/Gallente ships can not. "Mors certa, hora incerta." |
Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 20:00:00 -
[170]
Blasters were just fine before the nano nerf, but now they have no real place to go.
I think that is why CCP has not addressed them yet, because they need to retain some distinguishing characteristics compared to other weaponry classes, but one of the things that actually distinguished them has been nerfed and will not be coming back.
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Sure maybe a slightly faster Blasterthron is not going to make them better for enormous fleets of Abaddons and Geddons, but it will put them back on the map, which is all most of us really want.
We already have the Machariel which can go +400m/s with a 100MN afterburner, why couldn't CCP just make Gallente boats have better role bonuses so they can bridge the gap between short range and nerfed speed?
|
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:13:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Maduin Ardens Blasters were just fine before the nano nerf, but now they have no real place to go.
I think that is why CCP has not addressed them yet, because they need to retain some distinguishing characteristics compared to other weaponry classes, but one of the things that actually distinguished them has been nerfed and will not be coming back.
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Sure maybe a slightly faster Blasterthron is not going to make them better for enormous fleets of Abaddons and Geddons, but it will put them back on the map, which is all most of us really want.
We already have the Machariel which can go +400m/s with a 100MN afterburner, why couldn't CCP just make Gallente boats have better role bonuses so they can bridge the gap between short range and nerfed speed?
Even if they increased the default range on blasters and gave rails a higher dmg mod and tracking. They would be nearly balanced. The problem isn't getting around. It is hitting things. Sitting on top of someone is also a way larger advantage than shooting from a distance as well. Unless of course you are shooting from a distance greater than their fall off. Which is the current issue with hybrids. Hell even if they made hybrids the best tracking turrets it would help make them great.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:22:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 12/07/2011 22:25:47
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Originally by: Maduin Ardens Blasters were just fine before the nano nerf, but now they have no real place to go.
I think that is why CCP has not addressed them yet, because they need to retain some distinguishing characteristics compared to other weaponry classes, but one of the things that actually distinguished them has been nerfed and will not be coming back.
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Sure maybe a slightly faster Blasterthron is not going to make them better for enormous fleets of Abaddons and Geddons, but it will put them back on the map, which is all most of us really want.
We already have the Machariel which can go +400m/s with a 100MN afterburner, why couldn't CCP just make Gallente boats have better role bonuses so they can bridge the gap between short range and nerfed speed?
Even if they increased the default range on blasters and gave rails a higher dmg mod and tracking. They would be nearly balanced. The problem isn't getting around. It is hitting things. Sitting on top of someone is also a way larger advantage than shooting from a distance as well. Unless of course you are shooting from a distance greater than their fall off. Which is the current issue with hybrids. Hell even if they made hybrids the best tracking turrets it would help make them great.
Yea, but then they would not be clearly discernible from the other turret based weaponry, remember each weapon system has to have a niche, increasing stats simply to match other weaponry systems reduces this facet of game mechanics until the difference between various weaponry systems is not nearly as important, i.e. basically CCP has thus far avoided the Warcraft syndrome of just giving every 'class' all 'abilities' to satisfy exactly these kinds of argument.
I too want them to 'fix' hybrids, but only if it is to make them clearly more advantageous as a unique weaponry system in the game itself, not simply more like other weaponry systems.
Every class now has a viable interrupt in Warcraft, among other silly homogenized changes Blizzard has implemented over the past few years until almost all classes share basically the same traits in the major roles, save very very very minute details.
And you know what? Now all people do is fuss over these tiny details, claiming one class still has an advantage over another.
This cannot be my EVE, I want Gallente boats to have their place in the game, not simply be stripped bare and made uniform to closely match everything else.
IMO as far as I know, hybrid weaponry has not actually been changed in years and years, the only thing that made them worse were the initial nano nerf and subsequent changes to other weaponry systems, so simply 'buffing' them to be strong is not really quite the answer.
I firmly believe CCP has held off this long because they are going to lump the changes to hybrid weaponry together with changes to Gallente ships period, as one poster noted above, i.e. they will probably change the role bonuses of the ships themselves, instead of the base attributes of the weaponry, as we have seen them have a clear history of doing with the Falcon, and other various ship hulls where a simple "nerf this weapon" or "nerf that weapon" was not the best solution to the problem. ECM was not the problem, Falcon range bonuses TO the ECM mods were. I believe failure to close the distance to achieve maximum DPS with Gallente boats IS the problem, since that is technically the only change made directly to Gallente boats let alone hybrid weapon systems, unless I missed something from last August til this Spring when I took a break from the game?
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:26:00 -
[173]
No turret has far better tracking than another. If you look at the spreadsheet, you can see that they are very comparable. By giving hybrids the best tracking they would only be doing as their role is intended. The best up close and personal consistent dps "aka you can't plan to always stand toe to toe." And the most consistent turret hits from far range. Rails already do miserable dmg long range compared to other turrets. It makes it even worse they can't hit the blind side of a cruiser at optimal without tracking mods.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 22:36:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Digital Messiah No turret has far better tracking than another. If you look at the spreadsheet, you can see that they are very comparable. By giving hybrids the best tracking they would only be doing as their role is intended. The best up close and personal consistent dps "aka you can't plan to always stand toe to toe." And the most consistent turret hits from far range. Rails already do miserable dmg long range compared to other turrets. It makes it even worse they can't hit the blind side of a cruiser at optimal without tracking mods.
I do agree rails need something more, and that simple role bonus changes on Gallente ships may not be enough. Rails have been the underdog for years and years because of that ^.
Not sure about Blasters tho, more DPS, more tracking... same problem, can't hit crap from more than a stone's throw away, and simply buffing their range just makes them nearly like everything else.
|
Generous Benefactor
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:04:00 -
[175]
Stop dreaming, CCP is never going to fix any of this stuff.
|
Phoebus ApolloX
|
Posted - 2011.07.12 23:35:00 -
[176]
Edited by: Phoebus ApolloX on 12/07/2011 23:39:30 Gallente ships with drones and hybrid weaponry require one thing to be effective, position on the field. With a tackled target in the right range blasters are stupid effective, and hybrids deal respectable damage when they hit with the right ammo in the right range without being out-tracked, and drones are very effective when they're not having to transverse long distances to get deployed onto target. They can only maintain this position though with speed - which they don't have. If they had the speed of your average Minmatar ship, they'd be quite effective because they'd have more control over how both hybrid weapons track and do damage when in range, and how long it takes to actually deploy drones onto target. Of course a better solution is to out and out slow down ships that can apply good damage over longer ranges (especially Minmatar ships, a ship with falloff bonuses like theirs have should simply be a slower ship class than others which don't have those ranged damage benefits) and this would solve all sorts of pvp issues (like zero commitment combat where people are constantly fleeing when the situation doesn't go their way), including the hybrid balancing issue.
My idea is to change how acceleration works with afterburners and microwarpdrives, with afterburners having slightly better top speeds and top-notch acceleration while MWD's would have a very long "rev up" time to getting to their full speed, so a mwd-fit subject can be heavy tackled if within say 20-30km of competent afterburner-fit pilots just because they couldn't breach the escape speed so rapidly. This would have more pilots go afterburner fit (mixing things up a bit) and gallente could have new racial bonuses to the acceleration rates of both afterburners and mwd's as their ship types require better positioning on the field to be used well. Blasters would be more relevant because the odds of getting tackled would be much higher, railguns would be more relevant because position at far ranges for sniping would be able to be maintained better, and combat in general would be more commitment based (more fleets would be welped to one another because they couldn't freely escape an incoming gang after said gang has landed on grid, ie people would have to take more risks).
That's just my 2 cents though.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 00:53:00 -
[177]
I think there is also the issue with the fact that you have to faction fit every gallente battleship just to fit a afterburner, full rack of your top guns, and a buffer / decent armor tank. And forget making it cap stable.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Milken Gekko
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 02:46:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Milken Gekko on 13/07/2011 02:46:49
Originally by: Generous Benefactor Stop dreaming, CCP is never going to fix any of this stuff.
^^
It is very important that ship get destroyed just to keep this ugly space wheel of wasted time rolling<.
|
Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:13:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Kehro Urgus
Originally by: Centis Adjani I forgot to mention one thing in my previous posting.
For the Hybrids I used faction ammo. For the Projectiles I used the standard ammo so far.
Which makes it even more depressing.
AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
And /signed.
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:13:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Digital Messiah I think there is also the issue with the fact that you have to faction fit every gallente battleship just to fit a afterburner, full rack of your top guns, and a buffer / decent armor tank. And forget making it cap stable.
You must be doing something very, very wrong then. They do require top fitting skills, but every single one can be fit decently with plain t2 / best named gear.
That doesnt mean you shouldnt use deadspace mods anyway for those that are dirt cheap and give a bit of extra performance however.
|
|
Mei Haruka
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 03:21:00 -
[181]
well u guys can get a hybrid gunship battleship and run a few incursions, it will make you feel better
vindicator, navy mega etc
|
Machina Decresco
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 06:08:00 -
[182]
Just because a couple options are viable doesn't mean the whole system is working. Why should hybrids be broken and remain so until soon. Caldari are hurting as much as gallente are. |
Kehro Urgus
Gallente Ab Obice Saevior
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 07:17:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Kehro Urgus
Originally by: Centis Adjani I forgot to mention one thing in my previous posting.
For the Hybrids I used faction ammo. For the Projectiles I used the standard ammo so far.
Which makes it even more depressing.
AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
And /signed.
Trololo!
|
Aruken Marr
Gallente Noctiscion Black Thorne Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 07:43:00 -
[184]
The uses for hybrids are far too niche to be a viable option to train for (if you havn't already :(). Rails are substandard for missions and blasters are a ***** to use properly. Albeit a few ships work well like a blaster thorax, but the choice is greatly limited in scope compared to the other 3 races.
/signed
|
Headerman
Minmatar Quovis Shadow of xXDEATHXx
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 09:38:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Headerman on 13/07/2011 09:39:14
Originally by: Kehro Urgus
Originally by: Headerman
Originally by: Kehro Urgus
Originally by: Centis Adjani I forgot to mention one thing in my previous posting.
For the Hybrids I used faction ammo. For the Projectiles I used the standard ammo so far.
Which makes it even more depressing.
AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
And /signed.
Trololo!
hahahahaHAA!
|
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 11:57:00 -
[186]
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 13/07/2011 11:57:45 In my eyes, blaster damage output would have to be doubled, pretty much, to compensate for the huge commitment in fitting, skills, fleet comp and risk they take.
Railguns on the other hand are okay in my opinion. Exception being the 425mm, which takes too much grid as far as I'm concerned.
|
Zey Nadar
Gallente Unknown Soldiers B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 12:37:00 -
[187]
Originally by: Mei Haruka well u guys can get a hybrid gunship battleship and run a few incursions, it will make you feel better
vindicator, navy mega etc
Why would it make me feel better? Its not like I want to do what you described. Can still be done with better ships.
|
Not-Apsalar
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 13:57:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Gallente only? What about half the Caldari ships that use hybrids?
|
Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:24:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Not-Apsalar
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Gallente only? What about half the Caldari ships that use hybrids?
What Caldari ships that use hybrids are currently close range fighters by role bonuses?
I do not know of any Caldari boats that have hybrid damage, falloff, or tracking bonuses like a number of Gallente boats do.
|
Not-Apsalar
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:04:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Maduin Ardens Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 13/07/2011 14:30:55
Originally by: Not-Apsalar
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Gallente only? What about half the Caldari ships that use hybrids?
What Caldari ships that use hybrids are currently close range fighters by role bonuses?
I do not know of any Caldari boats that have hybrid damage, falloff, or tracking bonuses like a number of Gallente boats do.
Edit: What do Brutix and Astarte need repper bonuses for these days? Give them +5% to base velocity per level or some such thing, and remove the tracking bonus from Mega, and again add a velocity bonus, and just increase hybrid tracking across the board to help with Rokh tracking issues.
Plenty have hybrid optimal range bonuses. Eagle, Raptor, Cormorant, and Harpy all have damage bonuses as well.
|
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:59:00 -
[191]
not this again.
ok I'm going to post this one last time
the issue with hybrids is a complex one.
on blasters, it's a conjunction of ships being slow together with guns that provide only a small increase of damage for too many drawbacks.
only ships that have some success in blaster configs is the shield hype and the shield brutix (quite the irony really), provided you have some tackle help, because that way you don't get your mobility nerfed to the whazoo and you can actually make your damage go up because of the myriad of lows available; and small ships because they are already very fast and agile and nobody in their sane mind plates up a taranis/enyo/daredevil.
to make the agility penalty of armor tanked blasterships even worse, active armor tanking isn't really stellar compared to plate tanks, and the nano nerf killed the only mod that could make blasters kinda break even (web) together with nerfing mobility of a setup that already had mobility issues.
to top all this, the web nerf killed the relative tracking of a gun that already provided only 5-10% more dps over their nearest counterpart, the pulses, that have a range advantage that can go over 300%, and have a much better relative tracking (even if the base tracking of a pulse is lower than their blaster counterpart).
proposition to fix (medium and large) blasters would be increase their damage substantially, increase their tracking moderately, and making them totally useless beyond scram range, while revisiting armor plates and armor rig penalties so that they aren't as punitive as they are now, together with making blaster ships faster in a straight line by increasing speed to levels comparable to minmatar ships, but not agility.
this way they still have their niche, and they don't step on any other weapon systems' toes.
on the rail issue, while less complex than the blaster issue, it is actually one where a good "fix", where you maintain a status quo between weapon systems, is actually quite hard to come by with.
rails have the biggest optimals in game. issue is that nowadays, anything that shoots beyond 150km is superfulous, making the rails range advantage, moot.
beams have higher dps, while arties provide a much better burst damage, even if they have shorter optimals
this issue is even more extrapolated with the fact that many caldari gunships (the ones that are supposed to be the rail platforms by excellence), seem to lack grid in a way that makes you think that CCP must want you to fit your lowslots with either power diags, RCU's, or a mix of both. most glaring examples are the eagle, where it's almost impossible to fit a full rack of 250's with anything else, and the tengu, where the grid subsystem, supposedly the sub that complements the rail offensive sub, has the lowest grid of all the engineering subs (550mw? really CCP?).
there is no real "fix" to rails besides increasing grid on caldari gunships however.
increasing damage is another fix to rails but it's still not enough. other ways to fix them would be by actually nerfing on-grid probing and increasing the targetting cap, but while on the first it might be hard to make it, on the second there are some can of worms that would open. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:05:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Grimpak not this again.
ok I'm going to post this one last time
the issue with hybrids is a complex one.
on blasters, it's a conjunction of ships being slow together with guns that provide only a small increase of damage for too many drawbacks.
only ships that have some success in blaster configs is the shield hype and the shield brutix (quite the irony really), provided you have some tackle help, because that way you don't get your mobility nerfed to the whazoo and you can actually make your damage go up because of the myriad of lows available; and small ships because they are already very fast and agile and nobody in their sane mind plates up a taranis/enyo/daredevil.
to make the agility penalty of armor tanked blasterships even worse, active armor tanking isn't really stellar compared to plate tanks, and the nano nerf killed the only mod that could make blasters kinda break even (web) together with nerfing mobility of a setup that already had mobility issues.
to top all this, the web nerf killed the relative tracking of a gun that already provided only 5-10% more dps over their nearest counterpart, the pulses, that have a range advantage that can go over 300%, and have a much better relative tracking (even if the base tracking of a pulse is lower than their blaster counterpart).
proposition to fix (medium and large) blasters would be increase their damage substantially, increase their tracking moderately, and making them totally useless beyond scram range, while revisiting armor plates and armor rig penalties so that they aren't as punitive as they are now, together with making blaster ships faster in a straight line by increasing speed to levels comparable to minmatar ships, but not agility.
this way they still have their niche, and they don't step on any other weapon systems' toes.
on the rail issue, while less complex than the blaster issue, it is actually one where a good "fix", where you maintain a status quo between weapon systems, is actually quite hard to come by with.
rails have the biggest optimals in game. issue is that nowadays, anything that shoots beyond 150km is superfulous, making the rails range advantage, moot.
beams have higher dps, while arties provide a much better burst damage, even if they have shorter optimals
this issue is even more extrapolated with the fact that many caldari gunships (the ones that are supposed to be the rail platforms by excellence), seem to lack grid in a way that makes you think that CCP must want you to fit your lowslots with either power diags, RCU's, or a mix of both. most glaring examples are the eagle, where it's almost impossible to fit a full rack of 250's with anything else, and the tengu, where the grid subsystem, supposedly the sub that complements the rail offensive sub, has the lowest grid of all the engineering subs (550mw? really CCP?).
there is no real "fix" to rails besides increasing grid on caldari gunships however.
increasing damage is another fix to rails but it's still not enough. other ways to fix them would be by actually nerfing on-grid probing and increasing the targetting cap, but while on the first it might be hard to make it, on the second there are some can of worms that would open.
I think you should post this "all the time". There are a lot of good points. And seeing as you understand the issue. It is only saddening that you don't voice this good opinion more often. /cheers and supported.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
MeBiatch
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:10:00 -
[193]
Edited by: MeBiatch on 13/07/2011 19:16:44 Hybrid fix:
idea for blasters would be close range arties... (basically keep dps the same but increase alpha decrease rof to ofset, plus increase base tracking)
Railguns: make them long range autocannons (increase base damage and rof, reduce cap activity amount)
Change the 10% to optimal range bonus on Caldari ships to 5% to ROF...
hybrid ammo: make it a true mix between energy and projectile... (give a base tracking bonus added to the cap reduction bonus) plus make: antimater 50/50 therm/kin damage uranium 80/20 therm/kin plutonium 20/80 therm/kin) = -50% to optimal range thorium 70/30 therm/kin -20% optimal range 1.15% increase to tracking -25% to activation cost... lead 30/70 therm/kin 0% change to optimal range 1.075% increase to tracking -35% to activation cost... iridium 50/50 therm/kin 20% change to optimal range 1.035% increase to tracking -40% to activation cost... thungsten 80/20 therm/kin 40% change to optimal range 1.0175% increase to tracking -45% to activation cost... iron 20/80 therm/kin 60% change to optimal range 0% change to tracking -50% to activation cost...
make there options for gallente ships to get close 1st is speed option so give gallente ships all reduced mass plus make a mass reduction bonus to some ships (like deimos, mega all ships that currently get falloff/tracking bonus now get mass reduction bonus) 2nd: make the 7.5% to armor repper amount per level to include incomming RR 3rd. change the trimark penilty from max speed to agility...
Presto Gallente/Hybrids are fixed
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 20:48:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Digital Messiah I think you should post this "all the time". There are a lot of good points. And seeing as you understand the issue. It is only saddening that you don't voice this good opinion more often. /cheers and supported.
I have expressed this very opinion for quite some time now.
blasters were the ultimate point blank weapon, then a crapload of stuff happened since like the first HP boost (like in 2005/2006 or so), and things started to go downhill from there. lasers and projectiles were boosted more than once while blasters remained the same.
all I want is a return to the days when having a blaster ship inside 10km would be the same as having a 10mton armed nuke strapped on your back and you couldn't do **** to stop the countdown. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Strecs Moliko
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 21:44:00 -
[195]
Originally by: Headerman Edited by: Headerman on 13/07/2011 09:39:14
Originally by: Kehro Urgus
AIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
And /signed.
Trololo!
hahahahaHAA!
Luh Luh lah, lah, lah, luh.
And /signed.
|
chrome diopside
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:35:00 -
[196]
Ok you guys have made me feel real stupid cos I've been flying Gal boats for 3 years now and I love em!
Rails are great for missions - I use 425mm IIs on a megathron and by switching between standard antimatter and spike I can hit anything I need to. Once stuff gets in real close (<10km) I have drones. PvE is very easy. I solo every lvl 4 out there without an issue.
PvP often presents fitting issues but in general I can mount t2 Neutron Blasters, a great passive armor tank, point, web, cap booster (in case some wiseass has a neut) and when in fleet, warp to 0 on target and melt him. I used my learning sp to take Command Ships to 5 for an Astarte and interestingly I tested it out on corp members with way more sp and experience than me - Astarte > Abaddon, Armageddon, Hurricane, Typhoon easily - only issue I had was against a Maelstrom cos I was stupid and capped myself out with an MWD. Gal boats are great IF you have the subskills to fit them properly and use your mods effectively.
So I don't understand what you guys are whining about? Or maybe I'm just too dumb to follow the argument...
|
Not-Apsalar
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:48:00 -
[197]
Originally by: chrome diopside Ok you guys have made me feel real stupid cos I've been flying Gal boats for 3 years now and I love em!
Rails are great for missions - I use 425mm IIs on a megathron and by switching between standard antimatter and spike I can hit anything I need to. Once stuff gets in real close (<10km) I have drones. PvE is very easy. I solo every lvl 4 out there without an issue.
PvP often presents fitting issues but in general I can mount t2 Neutron Blasters, a great passive armor tank, point, web, cap booster (in case some wiseass has a neut) and when in fleet, warp to 0 on target and melt him. I used my learning sp to take Command Ships to 5 for an Astarte and interestingly I tested it out on corp members with way more sp and experience than me - Astarte > Abaddon, Armageddon, Hurricane, Typhoon easily - only issue I had was against a Maelstrom cos I was stupid and capped myself out with an MWD. Gal boats are great IF you have the subskills to fit them properly and use your mods effectively.
So I don't understand what you guys are whining about? Or maybe I'm just too dumb to follow the argument...
So you always start on grid with your enemy at a warpable object while you're far enough off to warp to 0 to melt them? No one has a problem with point blank range. The problem is getting there and holding it.
|
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:49:00 -
[198]
Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 13/07/2011 22:49:53
Originally by: chrome diopside Ok you guys have made me feel real stupid cos I've been flying Gal boats for 3 years now and I love em!
Rails are great for missions - I use 425mm IIs on a megathron and by switching between standard antimatter and spike I can hit anything I need to. Once stuff gets in real close (<10km) I have drones. PvE is very easy. I solo every lvl 4 out there without an issue.
PvP often presents fitting issues but in general I can mount t2 Neutron Blasters, a great passive armor tank, point, web, cap booster (in case some wiseass has a neut) and when in fleet, warp to 0 on target and melt him. I used my learning sp to take Command Ships to 5 for an Astarte and interestingly I tested it out on corp members with way more sp and experience than me - Astarte > Abaddon, Armageddon, Hurricane, Typhoon easily - only issue I had was against a Maelstrom cos I was stupid and capped myself out with an MWD. Gal boats are great IF you have the subskills to fit them properly and use your mods effectively.
So I don't understand what you guys are whining about? Or maybe I'm just too dumb to follow the argument...
Find better corp members. Also, try testing your astarte against a sleipnir, nanocane (not the armor tanked variety), etc. Also, be sure to fit a disruptor for fighting corpies for a proper test. A sleipnir or nanocane would have hit you with barrage till you ran out of cap boosters.
EDIT: also, what the guy above me said.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:53:00 -
[199]
Edited by: Digital Messiah on 13/07/2011 22:55:29
Originally by: chrome diopside Ok you guys have made me feel real stupid cos I've been flying Gal boats for 3 years now and I love em!
Rails are great for missions - I use 425mm IIs on a megathron and by switching between standard antimatter and spike I can hit anything I need to. Once stuff gets in real close (<10km) I have drones. PvE is very easy. I solo every lvl 4 out there without an issue.
PvP often presents fitting issues but in general I can mount t2 Neutron Blasters, a great passive armor tank, point, web, cap booster (in case some wiseass has a neut) and when in fleet, warp to 0 on target and melt him. I used my learning sp to take Command Ships to 5 for an Astarte and interestingly I tested it out on corp members with way more sp and experience than me - Astarte > Abaddon, Armageddon, Hurricane, Typhoon easily - only issue I had was against a Maelstrom cos I was stupid and capped myself out with an MWD. Gal boats are great IF you have the subskills to fit them properly and use your mods effectively.
So I don't understand what you guys are whining about? Or maybe I'm just too dumb to follow the argument...
As mentioned before it isn't about being viable in some situations"Aka a tech 2 battlecruiser vs tech 1 BC's/BS's." It is being viable in all the other ones everything else is. There is a huge difference in fitting requirements. As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's.
The biggest issue is that Gallente/Caldari hybrid ships simply do not perform as their role intends. People will continue to have an issue with their general performance.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Ineka
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:57:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 13/07/2011 22:49:53
Originally by: chrome diopside Ok you guys have made me feel real stupid cos I've been flying Gal boats for 3 years now and I love em!
Rails are great for missions - I use 425mm IIs on a megathron and by switching between standard antimatter and spike I can hit anything I need to. Once stuff gets in real close (<10km) I have drones. PvE is very easy. I solo every lvl 4 out there without an issue.
PvP often presents fitting issues but in general I can mount t2 Neutron Blasters, a great passive armor tank, point, web, cap booster (in case some wiseass has a neut) and when in fleet, warp to 0 on target and melt him. I used my learning sp to take Command Ships to 5 for an Astarte and interestingly I tested it out on corp members with way more sp and experience than me - Astarte > Abaddon, Armageddon, Hurricane, Typhoon easily - only issue I had was against a Maelstrom cos I was stupid and capped myself out with an MWD. Gal boats are great IF you have the subskills to fit them properly and use your mods effectively.
So I don't understand what you guys are whining about? Or maybe I'm just too dumb to follow the argument...
Find better corp members. Also, try testing your astarte against a sleipnir, nanocane (not the armor tanked variety), etc. Also, be sure to fit a disruptor for fighting corpies for a proper test. A sleipnir or nanocane would have hit you with barrage till you ran out of cap boosters.
EDIT: also, what the guy above me said.
Whaaaaat???
Armour cane melts sleipnirs every day !! - just train your skills after lvl1 (joke inside about the lvl1 skills)
|
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:16:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/07/2011 23:17:23
Originally by: Digital Messiah As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's.
I can tell you have never actually tried to fit a tach abaddon.
This is the real cause nothing gets done, there is a lot of decent feedback around but it gets completely drowned in useless comments like the one I just quoted.
Now I appreaciate you being dedicated to our spaceships, but you are just hurting the cause with unqualified 'balancing' ideas that drown the good ones in a river of nonsense.
Sometimes a simple 'I dont like the way it is but dont know what to do' is worth more. Leave the actual balance discussion to those who know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents.
|
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:20:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 13/07/2011 23:21:06
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/07/2011 23:17:23
Originally by: Digital Messiah As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's.
I can tell you have never actually tried to fit a tach abaddon.
This is the real cause nothing gets done, there is a lot of decent feedback around but it gets completely drowned in useless comments like the one I just quoted.
Now I appreaciate you being dedicated to our spaceships, but you are just hurting the cause with unqualified 'balancing' ideas that drown the good ones in a river of nonsense.
Sometimes a simple 'I dont like the way it is but dont know what to do' is worth more. Leave the actual balance discussion to those who know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents.
Also, confirming Neutrons = Tachyons... The proper equivalent would be 425s, except that tachyons are good, not so much for 425s.
Edit: Actually, Mega beams are better and easier to fit than 425s... but then again, mega beams are good, not so much for 425s.
|
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:20:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Grimpak not this again.
ok I'm going to post this one last time
the issue with hybrids is a complex one.
on blasters, it's a conjunction of ships being slow together with guns that provide only a small increase of damage for too many drawbacks.
only ships that have some success in blaster configs is the shield hype and the shield brutix (quite the irony really), provided you have some tackle help, because that way you don't get your mobility nerfed to the whazoo and you can actually make your damage go up because of the myriad of lows available; and small ships because they are already very fast and agile and nobody in their sane mind plates up a taranis/enyo/daredevil.
to make the agility penalty of armor tanked blasterships even worse, active armor tanking isn't really stellar compared to plate tanks, and the nano nerf killed the only mod that could make blasters kinda break even (web) together with nerfing mobility of a setup that already had mobility issues.
to top all this, the web nerf killed the relative tracking of a gun that already provided only 5-10% more dps over their nearest counterpart, the pulses, that have a range advantage that can go over 300%, and have a much better relative tracking (even if the base tracking of a pulse is lower than their blaster counterpart).
proposition to fix (medium and large) blasters would be increase their damage substantially, increase their tracking moderately, and making them totally useless beyond scram range, while revisiting armor plates and armor rig penalties so that they aren't as punitive as they are now, together with making blaster ships faster in a straight line by increasing speed to levels comparable to minmatar ships, but not agility.
this way they still have their niche, and they don't step on any other weapon systems' toes.
on the rail issue, while less complex than the blaster issue, it is actually one where a good "fix", where you maintain a status quo between weapon systems, is actually quite hard to come by with.
rails have the biggest optimals in game. issue is that nowadays, anything that shoots beyond 150km is superfulous, making the rails range advantage, moot.
beams have higher dps, while arties provide a much better burst damage, even if they have shorter optimals
this issue is even more extrapolated with the fact that many caldari gunships (the ones that are supposed to be the rail platforms by excellence), seem to lack grid in a way that makes you think that CCP must want you to fit your lowslots with either power diags, RCU's, or a mix of both. most glaring examples are the eagle, where it's almost impossible to fit a full rack of 250's with anything else, and the tengu, where the grid subsystem, supposedly the sub that complements the rail offensive sub, has the lowest grid of all the engineering subs (550mw? really CCP?).
there is no real "fix" to rails besides increasing grid on caldari gunships however.
increasing damage is another fix to rails but it's still not enough. other ways to fix them would be by actually nerfing on-grid probing and increasing the targetting cap, but while on the first it might be hard to make it, on the second there are some can of worms that would open.
Grimpak for CCP dev! --------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author |
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:25:00 -
[204]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/07/2011 23:25:34
Originally by: Demon Azrakel Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 13/07/2011 23:21:06
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/07/2011 23:17:23
Originally by: Digital Messiah As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's.
I can tell you have never actually tried to fit a tach abaddon.
This is the real cause nothing gets done, there is a lot of decent feedback around but it gets completely drowned in useless comments like the one I just quoted.
Now I appreaciate you being dedicated to our spaceships, but you are just hurting the cause with unqualified 'balancing' ideas that drown the good ones in a river of nonsense.
Sometimes a simple 'I dont like the way it is but dont know what to do' is worth more. Leave the actual balance discussion to those who know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents.
Also, confirming Neutrons = Tachyons... The proper equivalent would be 425s, except that tachyons are good, not so much for 425s.
Edit: Actually, Mega beams are better and easier to fit than 425s... but then again, mega beams are good, not so much for 425s.
Not quite, the proper comparison would be Megabeams = 425s. Tachs dont have equivalent turrets for the other races.
And the 425s are a lot easier to fit than the Megabeams too btw, not the other way around.
|
Galphram NefreX
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:33:00 -
[205]
Seven pages and not one reply from CCP. Yet they are quick to reply to rants ect.
|
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:37:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Edited by: Omara Otawan on 13/07/2011 23:17:23
Originally by: Digital Messiah As I stated before it is harder to fit a megathron with neutron 2's than an abaddon with tachyon 2's.
I can tell you have never actually tried to fit a tach abaddon.
This is the real cause nothing gets done, there is a lot of decent feedback around but it gets completely drowned in useless comments like the one I just quoted.
Now I appreaciate you being dedicated to our spaceships, but you are just hurting the cause with unqualified 'balancing' ideas that drown the good ones in a river of nonsense.
Sometimes a simple 'I dont like the way it is but dont know what to do' is worth more. Leave the actual balance discussion to those who know what they are talking about. Just my 2 cents.
I flew an amarr character for quite some time. And with two ancillary current router I's I could easily fit tachyons and a decent tank. And on top of that hit a target for about 2.5-3.5k alpha. Oh but i couldn't hit anything smaller than a battlecruiser from under 25,000m. "That is what drones are for!" Sound familiar?
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:50:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Not-Apsalar
Originally by: Maduin Ardens Edited by: Maduin Ardens on 13/07/2011 14:30:55
Originally by: Not-Apsalar
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Rather than give Gallente racial bonuses based on range (which is silly for blasters) they should be giving velocity bonuses so Gallente boats get back some of their old luster.
Gallente only? What about half the Caldari ships that use hybrids?
What Caldari ships that use hybrids are currently close range fighters by role bonuses?
I do not know of any Caldari boats that have hybrid damage, falloff, or tracking bonuses like a number of Gallente boats do.
Edit: What do Brutix and Astarte need repper bonuses for these days? Give them +5% to base velocity per level or some such thing, and remove the tracking bonus from Mega, and again add a velocity bonus, and just increase hybrid tracking across the board to help with Rokh tracking issues.
Plenty have hybrid optimal range bonuses. Eagle, Raptor, Cormorant, and Harpy all have damage bonuses as well.
Optimal range bonus != close range boat... that one is easy, so out goes Raptor and any Caldari boat with optimal role bonuses, as far as velocity changes are concerned.
As far as the Raptor, Cormorant, and Harpy, when they fix AFs in general, sure... if they ever do considering it is far more likely they'll simply release T3 frigates and hope people stop complaining about AFs after six months like they did with CSs after T3 Cruisers came out, and the Eagle is not used enough for them to bother or else they would, (Yes yes, if they DID fix the eagle up a bit, maybe it WOULD get used more, but that's neither here nor there).
And as for the Cormorant, good lord I hope they don't devote more than half an hour to whether they should spend man hours on a T1 destroyer role bonus change......
But yes, theoretically all AFs could use some love, but that's about it for Caldari hybrid boats IMO, they all serve their purpose already. So, I agree with you on AFs, but not the rest, as far as any potential velocity changes for them.
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:57:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
I flew an amarr character for quite some time. And with two ancillary current router I's I could easily fit tachyons and a decent tank. And on top of that hit a target for about 2.5-3.5k alpha. Oh but i couldn't hit anything smaller than a battlecruiser from under 25,000m. "That is what drones are for!" Sound familiar?
Uhm, people are primarily concerned about PVP dude.
|
Maduin Ardens
Eve Innovations Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:03:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Digital Messiah I think you should post this "all the time". There are a lot of good points. And seeing as you understand the issue. It is only saddening that you don't voice this good opinion more often. /cheers and supported.
I have expressed this very opinion for quite some time now.
blasters were the ultimate point blank weapon, then a crapload of stuff happened since like the first HP boost (like in 2005/2006 or so), and things started to go downhill from there. lasers and projectiles were boosted more than once while blasters remained the same.
all I want is a return to the days when having a blaster ship inside 10km would be the same as having a 10mton armed nuke strapped on your back and you couldn't do **** to stop the countdown.
yea I remember hearing stories about how badass the Thorax was in years back, that you'd run into them everywhere and they would just melt your friggin' face.
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:11:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/07/2011 01:16:43
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
yea I remember hearing stories about how badass the Thorax was in years back, that you'd run into them everywhere and they would just melt your friggin' face.
When I just started the game in early 2007 you'd literally see nothing else but Thoraxes, Vexors, Myrms, Brutixes, Domis and Megas around lowsec. And the odd Arazu soloing pretty much everything it could grab a hold of given enough time.
Was pretty depressing having just rolled caldari and amarr characters, and being told to crosstrain into gallente if I was going to pvp and couldnt afford a billion isk HAC + clone.
The ships were pretty badass though, but a lot based on broken game mechanics that you either loved or hated depending on which end of the turrets/drones you were on.
|
|
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:08:00 -
[211]
I remember back when the Drake was first released and I did not realize just how strong of a tank it had. I was hunting in my Arazu about a system out from Amamake and I came across one in a belt. So I uncloak, scram and damp him so he can't do anything to me and proceed to unleash my hell storm.
After about 5 minutes of trying to grind into his tank and realizing I couldn't beat his recharge he informed me that some guys from his corp would show up in around 30 minutes or so and I was forced to slink away in defeat. --------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:21:00 -
[212]
also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon". ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Not-Apsalar
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 13:55:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Optimal range bonus != close range boat... that one is easy, so out goes Eagle and any Caldari boat with optimal role bonuses, as far as velocity changes are concerned.
As far as the Raptor, Cormorant, and Harpy, when they fix AFs in general, sure... if they ever do considering it is far more likely they'll simply release T3 frigates and hope people stop complaining about AFs after six months like they did with CSs after T3 Cruisers came out, and the Eagle is not used enough for them to bother or else they would, (Yes yes, if they DID fix the eagle up a bit, maybe it WOULD get used more, but that's neither here nor there).
And as for the Cormorant, good lord I hope they don't devote more than half an hour to whether they should spend man hours on a T1 destroyer role bonus change......
But yes, theoretically all AFs could use some love, but that's about it for Caldari hybrid boats IMO, they all serve their purpose already. So, I agree with you on AFs, but not the rest, as far as any potential velocity changes for them.
Considering the pitiful range of blasters, it's still close range. Caldari ships are ponderously slow/unagile and have very limited low slots for passive speed/agility mods. Essentially, if you want any type of effectiveness you're stuck with rails(which, of course, is fine with some standard fits like a sniper HAC Eagle). Sucks if you want to fly a Raptor, given its role and other bonuses.
|
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:01:00 -
[214]
Edited by: Mendolus on 14/07/2011 14:06:40
Originally by: Kumq uat I remember back when the Drake was first released and I did not realize just how strong of a tank it had. I was hunting in my Arazu about a system out from Amamake and I came across one in a belt. So I uncloak, scram and damp him so he can't do anything to me and proceed to unleash my hell storm.
After about 5 minutes of trying to grind into his tank and realizing I couldn't beat his recharge he informed me that some guys from his corp would show up in around 30 minutes or so and I was forced to slink away in defeat.
That is a good story, I wish more people would share stories like this because to me this is EVE, sometimes you feel like the smartest bastard out there, other times you school yourself before the hostiles even get a chance to and then you feel like a chump for days, LOL... :)
Originally by: Not-Apsalar
Originally by: Maduin Ardens
Optimal range bonus != close range boat... that one is easy, so out goes Eagle and any Caldari boat with optimal role bonuses, as far as velocity changes are concerned.
As far as the Raptor, Cormorant, and Harpy, when they fix AFs in general, sure... if they ever do considering it is far more likely they'll simply release T3 frigates and hope people stop complaining about AFs after six months like they did with CSs after T3 Cruisers came out, and the Eagle is not used enough for them to bother or else they would, (Yes yes, if they DID fix the eagle up a bit, maybe it WOULD get used more, but that's neither here nor there).
And as for the Cormorant, good lord I hope they don't devote more than half an hour to whether they should spend man hours on a T1 destroyer role bonus change......
But yes, theoretically all AFs could use some love, but that's about it for Caldari hybrid boats IMO, they all serve their purpose already. So, I agree with you on AFs, but not the rest, as far as any potential velocity changes for them.
Considering the pitiful range of blasters, it's still close range. Caldari ships are ponderously slow/unagile and have very limited low slots for passive speed/agility mods. Essentially, if you want any type of effectiveness you're stuck with rails(which, of course, is fine with some standard fits like a sniper HAC Eagle). Sucks if you want to fly a Raptor, given its role and other bonuses.
Yea, I agree Raptor could use some love, but like I said, CCP will either only touch them if and when they fix up all AFs, or never bother with them ever again, and release T3 Frigates hoping we all forget that AFs are so unloved these days. I remember when I first started that Enyo's were still somewhat popular, and I even had an Enyo pilot warp into a belt on me in Empire one time when I was weeks old, and orbit me menacingly. But since the nano nerf I can count on one hand the times I have seen or heard of them in combat. The worst part is they looked really friggin' sick when you fit them with blasters and a mwd back when ship trails still existed...
As far as speed bonuses for any ships with optimal range bonuses, I understand what you are saying about blaster fits still needing it regardless of the optimal bonus, but I definitely disagree that CCP would change ship bonuses or stats based on a role the ship was not made for, since they claim that every ship they ever add fits a specific role and that is what it was meant for (i.e. any other roles are just circumstantial).
Edit: See my sig >>>
|
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:27:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon".
No, it shouldn't. You compare how each race does at a certain job, using the best weapon available FOR said job. In the case of tachs/425s/1400s, this job tends to be sniping. The only way it would be reasonable to insist that 425s get compared to mega beams, is if rails had their OWN higher tier gun to use. As it stands, there isn't ant 600mm railgun, so you have to compare the best of lasers (tachyons) to the best of rails (425s) to the best of arty (1400). Claiming that you can't make this comparison based entirely off of some made-up weapon tiering system (one that is based SOLELY on the idea that harder to fit weapons must be of a higher tier) really doesn't work when not all races have weapons that fall into the same tiers. The proper argument in that comparison would be something more along the lines of "tachyons are harder to fit so they SHOULD be better." Though even then, rails would benefit immensely from having a weapon of similar caliber, and might not suck so much then. |
Winking Browneye
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 14:59:00 -
[216]
Another day, another FIX HYBRIDS!!1!! post.
Yes we all know they are broken. Yes they are the worst of all races turrets. Yes everyone has cross trained away from them (or lacks the intelligence to do so)
But,
No. Spamming the forums is not going to get them fixed any quicker. There have been hybrid threads in the past with posts from CCP, so they know about the problem already.
Also, your OP has a problem, but no proposed solution. If you cant think of a 'fix' or Hybrids, maybe CCP are having the same issue? For instance, Blasters: Keep range, upgrade base tracking, upgrade base damage.
|
Chronix Beebelbrox
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 17:50:00 -
[217]
bump cuz i could not let a troll whose name means a$$hole have the last post.
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 18:05:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon".
No, it shouldn't.
but it is, devs (I think it was TomB) said so some 5-6 years ago. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:48:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon".
No, it shouldn't.
but it is, devs (I think it was TomB) said so some 5-6 years ago.
I don't understand why there are Tachyon's. But no equivalent for rails?
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 22:12:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon".
No, it shouldn't.
but it is, devs (I think it was TomB) said so some 5-6 years ago.
I don't understand why there are Tachyon's. But no equivalent for rails?
Artillery dont have a 'supersize' variant of their battleship long-range turrets either, and they also only have two sizes of the long-range turrets across all classes compared to the three sizes with rails.
Its a laser thing, they get three sizes for the short-range turrets with frigate class and only two for cruiser and battleship class where blasters and autocannons get three sizes across all classes.
|
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 22:21:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Omara Otawan Artillery dont have a 'supersize' variant of their battleship long-range turrets either, and they also only have two sizes of the long-range turrets across all classes compared to the three sizes with rails.
Its a laser thing, they get three sizes for the short-range turrets with frigate class and only two for cruiser and battleship class where blasters and autocannons get three sizes across all classes.
also, did you knew that the mid-range med and large rails were added much later? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
|
Posted - 2011.07.14 22:41:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon".
No, it shouldn't.
but it is, devs (I think it was TomB) said so some 5-6 years ago.
CCP have also said that putting medium guns on battleships is a good way to counter cruisers.
And that ghost training was an intended feature (and then later that it was a bug) And that they would never implement RMT...
Anyway, regardless of what one particular dev said, answer me these 2 questions:
If you're going to tier off weapon systems and claim that this is how they should be balanced, what exactly makes tachyons a tier 3 weapon (vs the other races having only 2 tiers) when there is no tier 2 weapon (or tier 1, depending on how you want to divide the tiers)?
If you actually believe this tiering crap, would you not agree that giving lasers a weapon that is a tier higher than everyone else's is something of a balancing problem? Especially when lasers already perform so much better than hybrids in general (because really at this point it's just adding insult to injury).
I mean really, if you're going to argue that you can't compare tachs to any other long range weapon system for balancing purposes, why not just fix gallente's problems on the BS level by introducing a new t3 BS, but only gallente get to have it. It will spew out absurd DPS, at absurd ranges, while having the tank of a carrier, but it will be perfectly balanced, because after all, the other races just don't have anything to compare it to. |
Tore Vest
Gallente Vikinghall
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:56:00 -
[223]
Bump Cause i care about gallente
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 07:28:00 -
[224]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Grimpak also, people are forgetting that the long range comparision should actually be 425mm vs 1400mm vs megabeam, since the tachyon is considered a "tier 4 weapon".
No, it shouldn't.
but it is, devs (I think it was TomB) said so some 5-6 years ago.
CCP have also said that putting medium guns on battleships is a good way to counter cruisers.
And that ghost training was an intended feature (and then later that it was a bug) And that they would never implement RMT...
Anyway, regardless of what one particular dev said, answer me these 2 questions:
If you're going to tier off weapon systems and claim that this is how they should be balanced, what exactly makes tachyons a tier 3 weapon (vs the other races having only 2 tiers) when there is no tier 2 weapon (or tier 1, depending on how you want to divide the tiers)?
If you actually believe this tiering crap, would you not agree that giving lasers a weapon that is a tier higher than everyone else's is something of a balancing problem? Especially when lasers already perform so much better than hybrids in general (because really at this point it's just adding insult to injury).
I mean really, if you're going to argue that you can't compare tachs to any other long range weapon system for balancing purposes, why not just fix gallente's problems on the BS level by introducing a new t3 BS, but only gallente get to have it. It will spew out absurd DPS, at absurd ranges, while having the tank of a carrier, but it will be perfectly balanced, because after all, the other races just don't have anything to compare it to.
it's just how it is, what can I do?
anyways back to this thread's topic, shall we? ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Kaldirov
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:05:00 -
[225]
Please fix hybrids so we can have some nice Caldari turret boats
|
Victoria Wolfe
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:59:00 -
[226]
As a proud citizen of 'The State' I will support this petition! ___
"Speak for yourself sir, I intend to live forever" - Commander William Riker |
Ilkahn
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:43:00 -
[227]
I started strictly Gallente, and still fly 100% gallente although i do have some amarr ships trained.... I can say without a doubt it's very tough to be competitive in a pvp fit gallente ship without massive skill sets to drones and turrets and even after 1.5+ years i'm still not fully competitive against a same skilled player from a different racial. If we are supposed to be the drone people how about allowing us more drones on the field since they seem to be the primary DPS since our turrets seem to be more for our entertainment than protection.
Have mercy CCP, help us.
|
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:18:00 -
[228]
Edited by: Kumq uat on 15/07/2011 18:20:15 I think the common consensus is better damage, better tracking, and relaxed fitting requirements yeah?
I do kind of like the shotgun analogy. Have some splash damage but I dont think it would work well. --------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.15 23:16:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Kumq uat I think the common consensus is better damage, better tracking, and relaxed fitting requirements yeah?
it's an overly simplistic way to put it, but yeah. sorta.
I still stand by my previous post however.
blaster ships should be sawed-off shotguns spewing explosive pellets with rockets attached. rockets that can travel very fast but only in straight lines. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Machina Decresco
|
Posted - 2011.07.17 02:34:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kumq uat I think the common consensus is better damage, better tracking, and relaxed fitting requirements yeah?
it's an overly simplistic way to put it, but yeah. sorta.
I still stand by my previous post however.
blaster ships should be sawed-off shotguns spewing explosive pellets with rockets attached. rockets that can travel very fast but only in straight lines.
At least they would be deadly in close range this way.
|
|
Ninevite
|
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:20:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Ninevite on 17/07/2011 23:22:59 Is this going anywhere? I am tired of flying ships useless for solo PvP
If I fly a blaster fit, I will never get in range to use my weapons and will be kited to death.
If I fly a rail fit, an opponent who uses an active tank completely overrides the damage from my weaponry system.
CCP it would not take that long to introduce some small changes to at least bandaid the problem while more extensive testing and rebalancing is done for the long haul. Please ****ing do something
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:41:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Machina Decresco
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Kumq uat I think the common consensus is better damage, better tracking, and relaxed fitting requirements yeah?
it's an overly simplistic way to put it, but yeah. sorta.
I still stand by my previous post however.
blaster ships should be sawed-off shotguns spewing explosive pellets with rockets attached. rockets that can travel very fast but only in straight lines.
At least they would be deadly in close range this way.
that's the whole point.
total utter annihilation up close, barely tickles at anything beyond scram range, thus requiring a ship that has a good ability to come up close. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Cpt Fina
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:33:00 -
[233]
Edited by: Cpt Fina on 18/07/2011 11:37:37 While blaster might need some lovin, I don't agree on trying to ease the fitting requirements on these guns. Ships should be, and often are, very hard to fit in a satisfactory way. Intelligent fits and workarounds are imo, aspects that can give you an advantage over your opponent. A general fitting req-decrease across the board seem like a very dumb approach to a complex problem.
Sure, gallente have some specific hulls that can be readjusted, but so do all races.
|
quigibow
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 14:25:00 -
[234]
bump supported... though i think after the SC nerf this is next on CCP Tallest list
|
Mary Astell
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:19:00 -
[235]
I dont know, sure id love blasters to be better, but theres nothing like a shield tanked neutron myrm or just a common neutron mega. As long as you can get close and have a web anyway :)
|
quigibow
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:21:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Mary Astell I dont know, sure id love blasters to be better, but theres nothing like a shield tanked neutron myrm or just a common neutron mega. As long as you can get close and have a web anyway :)
i can see you have never been kited by a cane with one speed mod before eh?
|
Chronix Beebelbrox
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:28:00 -
[237]
bump t make sure this is in fact a squeaky enough wheel to get some grease.
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 17:40:00 -
[238]
Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 18/07/2011 11:37:37 While blaster might need some lovin, I don't agree on trying to ease the fitting requirements on these guns. Ships should be, and often are, very hard to fit in a satisfactory way. Intelligent fits and workarounds are imo, aspects that can give you an advantage over your opponent. A general fitting req-decrease across the board seem like a very dumb approach to a complex problem.
Sure, gallente have some specific hulls that can be readjusted, but so do all races.
if any, it's the caldari gunboats that really need more grid.
deimos could use some more fitting space too. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Mary Astell
|
Posted - 2011.07.18 18:06:00 -
[239]
Edited by: Mary Astell on 18/07/2011 18:05:54
Originally by: quigibow
Originally by: Mary Astell I dont know, sure id love blasters to be better, but theres nothing like a shield tanked neutron myrm or just a common neutron mega. As long as you can get close and have a web anyway :)
i can see you have never been kited by a cane with one speed mod before eh?
I didnt say they were good for solo work. Just for sealing the deal.
|
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.19 05:39:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Mary Astell Edited by: Mary Astell on 18/07/2011 18:05:54
Originally by: quigibow
Originally by: Mary Astell I dont know, sure id love blasters to be better, but theres nothing like a shield tanked neutron myrm or just a common neutron mega. As long as you can get close and have a web anyway :)
i can see you have never been kited by a cane with one speed mod before eh?
I didnt say they were good for solo work. Just for sealing the deal.
Breaking news! Hybrid turrets are balanced when no one is locking you and you are in a fleet where you can get in range to apply your dps.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
|
Dupre Indelian
|
Posted - 2011.07.19 06:32:00 -
[241]
Originally by: Digital Messiah Breaking news! Hybrid turrets are balanced when no one is locking you and you are in a fleet where you can get in range to apply your dps.
No they are not. Even in this situation they can barely keep up with the other races. They still suffer from high cap use and poor tracking. Even under the most optimal conditions the DPS very unimpressive.
|
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:28:00 -
[242]
Edited by: Suitonia on 19/07/2011 07:29:02 Eve General Discussion is probably the wrong place for constructive conversation on ship and weapon balance given how many trolls are around. Heres my 2 cents on Blasters and the ships as a weapon system, why they're weak, and how I feel they can be best improved. I'm mostly a solo PvPer (Arguably where hybrids should shine most, but don't!) with over 2000 solo kills, and no, I have never killed anyone with a smartbomb, I have every racial ship and turret ship trained, and also, was one of the big brains behind both HYDRA RELOADED tournament teams. I know this is all Anecdotal evidence of my experience, but I'm just stating this beforehand because I see so many people with absolutely no experience at all with PvP in eve posting, or people whos only experience is shooting a POS with 200 dudes in Drakes as well as lots of people on troll/alt accounts claiming that Blasters are fine, or that Hybrids just need tracking and they'll be magically fixed.
The first thing I think CCP should look at, is not Blasters, or Rails but rather, the ships themselves. This is also a big mistake I see many "Blasters are fine" counter-arguments use, they don't look at the ships, where there are so many problems inherinted from ships that haven't been changed since 2003 back when Blasters were actually strong.
- Ship Fittings - A lot of Hybrid ships suffer from having completely gimped fittings when compared to their counterparts. The best example I can give you is to take a look at the Thorax and Moa compared to the Rupture.
Thorax: 300 CPU, 820 PG. Moa: 360 CPU, 780 PG. Rupture: 325 CPU, 860PG.
First thing of note to point out, The Rupture has BOTH more PG and CPU than the Thorax, Secondly, the resources for Autocannons are consideribly less than than those needed for Blasters, and finally, the Rupture only needs to fit 4 Guns, compared to the Thorax and Moas 5.
It's stupid that the Rupture can Fit the Following, MWD, highest Tier Guns, A medium Neut, A large shield extender, without any issues what so ever. The Thorax can't even fit highest tier guns with a MWD, let alone fitting any defensive modules, Requiring a downgrade or a T2 RCU, The MOA is even worse, you need absolutely max fitting skills and a T2 RCU just to fit MWD and highest tier guns.
When you understand that other ships often have much much easier time fitting, that the Hybrid ships like the Thorax and Moa have to sacrifice so much just to get highest tier weapons, and if they don't make this sacrifice they usually end up doing Equivilant damage with a weapon system that has terrible range, or to gain a DPS advantage they end up throwing away any semblance of a tank, meaning that they end up losing in blaster optimal anyway because the DPS difference doesn't outweigh the EHP loss.
This is something that only applies to Gallente ships rather than the Caldari, but why on earth does the Thorax and the Brutix has one less overall slot (one less highslot) than all the racial equilvilants, this takes away a utility slot for a neutraliser, nos or any other highslot module of preference for no reason, adding further weaknesses to the ship for no gain. Gallente ships often will have to downgrade to sets of warriors because of this, instead of using the 50m3 drone bays on the Astarte, Brutix or Thorax, because they inexplicatly lose out on a highslot, further lowering their so called DPS advantage.
Fact: A Thorax will lose to a Rupture in Blaster Optimal. Here in lies the Problem. It's not so much that blasters suffer 1/3rd of the range for a small DPS increase, it's more to do with the fact that the ships are so gimped that it's just so much easier to fit a bigger tank, higher tier weapons, on top of neuts and anything else you can think on the other ships.
---
|
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:35:00 -
[243]
Now on to the second problem, Hybrid ships are horribly slow. The Deimos is slower than Both the Muninn and Zealot, 2 long range sniper based ships. Why? Please tell me Why? Honestly, it's dumb that the Drone Boat Equilvilants are just barely slower than the Blaster ships that need to get into optimal range. This problem is further emphasised in the fact that Gallente ships are often Armor Tanked, further slowing you down, if you don't fit your trimarks you end up losing in Blaster optimal anyway, since the opposing ship just has a better EHP/DPS ratio. If you do fit trimarks, chances are you won't make it into Blaster range anyway. The Caldari Hybrid ships are just so outright slow that it doesn't matter what you fit on them, they're too slow. Chances are even if you get your opponent in scram/web range, if they have the equilvilant electronic warfare, or hell, either one of the two, chances are you aren't going to win even when you eventually get into blaster optimal. This has gotten even worse since the Rig size adjustment, meaning a vast majority of people fits +armor/shield% rigs on everything.
Hybrid ships often have huge signature radius too, why is the Deimos 165m compared to the Zealots 125m3? which means they get tracked by bigger ships more easily, this is completely stupid. The ships that risk themselves by putting themselves in web range of other ships become easier to track and die easier than a ship that shouldn't have been in web range in the first place.
In my opinion, The Hybrid ships need rebalanced top speeds so they can actually get into blaster optimal, Ideally I'd like to see improved base speeds, with possibly more mass added, with agility tweaked so that it remains the same, so that blaster ships don't actually get kited in scram/web range, which is stupid. Additionally, it makes them harder to be hit by bigger ships that they have to enter web range to face anyway, preventing the odd fact that blaster ships are the easiest to track for bigger ships while having to take the most risks. They also need less gimped fittings so that they can actually fit the equilivilant tier weapons and tanking modules to other ship classes, Give The Brutix/Thorax the inexplanable missing highslot, and finally, give the actual weapon systems some small amount of love to compensate for the fact that they have massive drawbacks for little gain BEFORE EVEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THESE MASSIVE ISSUES.
Thank you for reading, and please, smack the idiots who think "better tracking" is going to solve all these issues. Suitonia signing out 07
---
|
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
|
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:41:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Suitonia Thank you for reading, and please, smack the idiots who think "better tracking" is going to solve all these issues. Suitonia signing out 07
oh it helps, but just boosting tracking alone won't do a thing to them. blaster ships would still be unable to reach anything before they are in deep hull. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
Lilith Velkor
Minmatar Heretic Army B A N E
|
Posted - 2011.07.19 07:56:00 -
[245]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/07/2011 08:06:17
Originally by: Suitonia
First thing of note to point out, The Rupture has BOTH more PG and CPU than the Thorax, Secondly, the resources for Autocannons are consideribly less than than those needed for Blasters, and finally, the Rupture only needs to fit 4 Guns, compared to the Thorax and Moas 5.
The Rupture does have slots for up to 6 crusier size weapons/modules though instead of 5.
Now there are very good reasons to go for frigate size modules in the utility slots (saving on fittings being one), but the fittings are actually not that much different if you take a full cruiser size loadout into consideration.
Originally by: Suitonia Now on to the second problem, Hybrid ships are horribly slow. The Deimos is slower than Both the Muninn and Zealot, 2 long range sniper based ships. Why?
The only configuration where the Deimos is really slower than the Zealot is 1600mm plated and trimarked.
And it is faster than the Muninn in any configuration btw, which is a joke on its own.
|
Shadow Wind
Gallente Crimson Empire.
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:12:00 -
[246]
Yeah how about a boost to incomming repairs from all sources (repair drones included) rather than repair module bonus, how about bonuses to all drone effective rather than just combat drones? That would make Gallente usefulness much higher.
|
WeeZeLL
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 22:39:00 -
[247]
Originally by: MeBiatch Edited by: MeBiatch on 13/07/2011 22:31:31 Edited by: MeBiatch on 13/07/2011 19:16:44 Hybrid fix:
idea for blasters would be close range arties... (basically keep dps the same but increase alpha decrease rof to ofset, plus increase base tracking)
Railguns: make them long range autocannons (increase base damage and rof, reduce cap activity amount)
Change the 10% to optimal range bonus on Caldari ships to 5% to ROF...
hybrid ammo: make it a true mix between energy and projectile... (give a base tracking bonus added to the cap reduction bonus) plus make: antimater 50/50 therm/kin damage = -50% to optimal range uranium 80/20 therm/kin -50% to optimal range plutonium 20/80 therm/kin) -50% to optimal range thorium 70/30 therm/kin -20% optimal range 1.15% increase to tracking -25% to activation cost... lead 30/70 therm/kin 0% change to optimal range 1.075% increase to tracking -35% to activation cost... iridium 50/50 therm/kin 20% change to optimal range 1.035% increase to tracking -40% to activation cost... thungsten 80/20 therm/kin 40% change to optimal range 1.0175% increase to tracking -45% to activation cost... iron 20/80 therm/kin 60% change to optimal range 0% change to tracking -50% to activation cost...
make there options for gallente ships to get close 1st is speed option so give gallente ships all reduced mass plus make a mass reduction bonus to some ships (like deimos, mega all ships that currently get falloff/tracking bonus now get mass reduction bonus) 2nd: make the 7.5% to armor repper amount per level to include incomming RR 3rd. change the trimark penilty from max speed to agility...
Presto Gallente/Hybrids are fixed plus gallente/caldari ships are now balanced against each other...
caldari will have the highest dps and gallente highest alpha... because 5% rof = 33% increase to dps but no increase to alpha... but 5% to base damage is 25% increase to both dps and alpha...
imagine how usefull rokhs will be when you can do 1k dps @ 100km
this
|
Ineka
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 22:47:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Ineka on 25/07/2011 22:48:25
Originally by: Takakura Hirohito Edited by: Takakura Hirohito on 08/07/2011 19:22:51
VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT: to keep EVE interesting, weapons (and ships) need to be balanced by enhancing their differences. It would be terrible if things were balanced by making them more similar to each other.
An example of intelligently balancing hybrids would be increasing the range on railguns, and increasing the damage and tracking on blasters. We DO NOT want blasters to be tweaked so they become more like pulse lasers or autocannons.
Another example would be decreasing the damage and increasing the rate-of-fire on pulse and beam lasers while increasing the damage and reducing the rate-of-fire on artillery projectile turrets. Lasers should have a high damage output and good range, but very little alpha. Their damage should be quite steady. Conversely, artillery should have moderate damage but outrageous alpha, less DPS but more alpha than they even have now.
You're right, leave them has they are and let's all train minmatar amarr, it's so much better isn't?
Because it's what happens when someone flying gallente finally understands why he can't have the same game experience than he's friends flying minmatar or amarr.
So keep it interesting for a few and keep screwing the most part of them ->50% of the races can use hybrids witch means a lot of unused/not popular ships/weapon system.
But you can always tell me your story "I was there" back in 2000 B.C.
|
Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2011.07.25 23:59:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Suitonia
Thank you for reading, and please, smack the idiots who think "better tracking" is going to solve all these issues. Suitonia signing out 07
I don't PvP much, but as a Bartle "Explorer" type who likes to know the ins and outs of a game, what you say in these two posts jibes perfectly with what I've concluded myself, from talking to players and my own researches.
It's mainly the ships - as you say, fitting and speed - not so much hybrids themselves. The Gallente ships (particularly blasterboats - droneboats seem to be pretty much ok) are, at the moment, balanced for a much earlier period in EVE's history, and other ships have long since surpassed them in effectiveness.
This should be obvious from the paper DPS effectiveness of hybrids. They look quite balanced. If they're not as effective in actual use as other options (granted the same pilot skill - and we can see many comments from people who can fly anything subcap, who say the same things), then logically there has to be something wrong with the ships using them and the way they're fit. Blasterboats at high skill ought to be able to fit their highest T2 weapons easily (and lots of 'em) and able to use them effectively; it constantly surprises me the struggle one has trying to fit them to maximise the effectiveness of what should be their native weaponry.
And yes, speed. Even from a lore point of view, Gallente are supposed to have the highest tech in the EVE universe apart from the Jovians, so they should have no trouble being able to push their heavy ships fast enough to get into blaster range, even if only for short bursts; and their webs should be slightly more effective. They are the "melee" equivalent in EVE - high damage, high risk, high reward, it absolutely has to be a part of their capabilities to "bull rush".
Caldari obviously aren't so tied with blasters, so the changes to them need to make rails more viable for them, bearing in mind their main strength is in missiles.
*****
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding |
Bunnyy Lebowski
|
Posted - 2011.07.26 00:19:00 -
[250]
I'm just gonna leave this right here....
I WAS THERE...
Originally by: Namura Kautsuo Oh man. All these rage tears are tasting so good. I didn't think EVE players could be worse tools than WoW players, but i'm glad to be proven wrong.
|
|
r0selan
Kasar Infinae
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:34:00 -
[251]
I have 11m sp, 8 in drones, 270k in guns, and do mainly missions in my little time play. As I did hit the roof of what drones can do, and After reading all the horror of hybrids I decided to train for projectiles instead of hybrids. course, i fly a navy domi, and now my hybrid and projectiles skills are equal. With gallente bs at 4, I have a 20% damage bonus on hybrids.
I take some time to do some tests. As I play like an hour per evening, I can keep the mission open for the next day I play, and compare results.
I fit 2 to 4 armor resits depending on the mission, meaning I have 2 to 4 slots for gyros/magstabs and tracking enhancers. on the autocannon domi, I can easily replace a cap recharger with a tracking/range script mod, and still have more cap time (more on this later). I fit meta 4 guns. 5 350, 5 ion blasters, or 5 800 ac. A part that, i fit a faction armor rep, 2 ommis for drones, and a sentry dmg rig. I use "bounties in 20 minutes" to roughly compare fits.
tl;dr for angel, drones, and amarr missons, autocannons rules. For serpentis and EoM, it depends, but generally AC is way more practical.
Railguns, with my fit and skills are better against 35+ orbiting eom and serpentis bs. And that's all. Even there my DPS is only marginally lower, thanx to my drones. for stuff further 65km, rails apply some damage, but that's not really relevant in my mission time.
Blasters are never better than AC for missions.
Autocannons shine most with rats BS orbiting close, overall angels. By the time they come close, they are dead. Simple as that. With blasters I have to fit an mwd, or at least an ab and/or a web, and overall switch from sentries to heavies to be in falloff. (against angels, I use bersekers anyway for close BSs, due to bouncers' bad tracking and angels thermal resistance. So this advantage of AC is neutralised, but even then...).
AC non cap usage is incredibly nice when under heavy fire with the armor rep running full speed. With rails, I sometime have to stop firing to continue repping and not warp out, letting drones slowly kill stuff. Yet, that's when the action is at it's pike and I need guns most. In these situation, autocannons are priceless.
AC track better, and that change the way I play. I can now down frigs, cruisers and bc with my guns, even those orbiting relatively close, giving more options and better target prioritization.
All in all, AC allow me to manage missions more easily, allowing me to fit less tank and more gank. I didn't try it, but I seriously believe I could do most angel missions with no tank at all and go full gank.
and that's with the 20% bonus to hybrids I have.
that's only a low level pve experience, yet I now fully understand all the rambling about hybrids ;)
there is no spoon |
Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:46:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Suitonia
Stuff
Like +1 +rep Other stuff
|
Cannibal Kane
Kane's Terrorist
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 13:12:00 -
[253]
Edited by: Cannibal Kane on 27/07/2011 13:11:58
Originally by: Dupre Indelian
They still suffer from high cap use .
Wait.. I though this threat was about Hybrid... not LaZors? ------------------------------------------------ I'm not a Pirate... I'm a Terrorist. |
Kunming
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 13:17:00 -
[254]
Originally by: Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Originally by: Suitonia
Stuff
Like +1 +rep Other stuff
Agreed! Was a long read but agree on all points. I hope officials will read this.
TL.DR: Both hybrids and hybrid platforms need to addressed. Those that think boosted tracking will fix everthing are wrong, check math, compare other races; ships.
|
Astenion
Gallente Spiritus Draconis
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 13:28:00 -
[255]
I agree as well. Hybrids are broken.
|
Precisionist
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 14:35:00 -
[256]
Fixed hybrids CCP instead of coming useless non working content that have no purpose like Maller graphic changes and captain quarters.
|
Adonlude
ANZAC ACADEMY
|
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:41:00 -
[257]
I agree. Fix hybrids. I want so desperately to use my Rokh and buy an Eagle and stuff.
/Signed
|
DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:20:00 -
[258]
Close to six years and 83mil sp and I still haven't found a reason to train medium/large rail specs.
Make it happen, i'm running out of subcap skills to train!
|
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.09 21:25:00 -
[259]
A month and a day, with no response from CCP after nine pages? If I bring up the thread I posted before this asking for a time line. It has been almost four months! More and more it is looking like soonÖ, actually means never. Please CCP get hybrids fixed so I can actually, sanely, consider, training them on this character.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Ager Agemo
Caldari Care Factor
|
Posted - 2011.08.09 23:08:00 -
[260]
i completely agree with the fact big part of the problem is on the platform, trying to fit a full rack of tier 3 railguns on a rokh is short of impossible without using reactor control units, and even if you have the skills implants and modules to fit them and keep some tank and tracking bonuses, they still do lame damage, in the end i fitted my rokh with AC and it worked much better which is sorta stupid given it is supposedly a specialized hybrid platform.
|
|
Holy One
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 00:02:00 -
[261]
Its been 9 pages of silence. 9 pages of pain .. 9 pages that are gone forever and I'll never have again.
ps: FREE KARTOON NOW. BBQ makes me hungry for more... |
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 04:44:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Ager Agemo i completely agree with the fact big part of the problem is on the platform, trying to fit a full rack of tier 3 railguns on a rokh is short of impossible without using reactor control units, and even if you have the skills implants and modules to fit them and keep some tank and tracking bonuses, they still do lame damage, in the end i fitted my rokh with AC and it worked much better which is sorta stupid given it is supposedly a specialized hybrid platform.
Another valid reason why this issue needs to be addressed sooner than later. And still no information on what soon means.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Selinate
Amarr
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 04:46:00 -
[263]
Edited by: Selinate on 10/08/2011 04:48:26
Originally by: Alara IonStorm Has anyone noticed that the only reason we say Amarr is on par with Minmatar is Scorch. It is litterally there only saving grace.
Also +1 Balance the game.
Scorch? It's good, yeah, but I also use conflagration when I get close enough, and it boosts my dps by a large amount when I do...
|
Bart Starr
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 05:00:00 -
[264]
Nah, Hybrids/Gallente are fine. Ignore the whiners, when they L2EVE they'll see why.
|
Ludi Tomina
Gallente BALKAN EXPRESS HUN Reloaded
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:46:00 -
[265]
Suitonias suggestions sound very logical. + 1 to you sir.
*********** WTB: RL |
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 09:51:00 -
[266]
Originally by: Ludi Tomina Suitonias suggestions sound very logical. + 1 to you sir.
There is a glutton of great ideas in this thread. All the information is set in front of the balancing team. Please for the love of new eden just do something. Make a small change with #'d patches like you do with everything else. Add in slight differences to the turrets and ships.
1. large group of players will test the changes. 2. you will get feedback... "there will be blood in the water" 3. supercaps = end game pvp anyways, you won't break anything. 4. you will probably break the turrets i take #3 back. 5. everyone will be ecstatic to see this issue reviewed.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Jebel Krong
Gallente Hyper-Global-Mega-Tech
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:31:00 -
[267]
Hybrids need buffing, fitting blasters is like picking up a greatsword and running at a guy with a rifle. Sure, if you can get in range you can mangle him, but he's far more likely to have shot you before you get there. I'd settle for higher tracking on railguns but basters are truly broken IMO, every time I hear someone talking about the DPS their Gankathron does it makes me laugh since that DPS relies on being able to get inside 10km with neither ship moving.
And the fact that Hybrids need both cap and ammo makes them unique among the weapons in EVE, I'm not saying that's a bad thing but I would like to see them buffed a bit somewhere. Especially since drones got nerfed.
|
Jaroslav Unwanted
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 10:59:00 -
[268]
Well after i read few "suggestions"
I cant help myself but it all seems .. make all gallante ships like vindicator but better.
What would Vindicator have then ?
I never trained hybrids not because i think they are horrible but because i liked the sound of auto-cannons when i started.
Still if i may i agree with everyone.
|
Hansemandse's Clone
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 11:15:00 -
[269]
/Signed
Hybrids need love If you didn't notice this, then you may have noticed, that it isn't worth noticing |
WisdomLikeSilence
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 11:24:00 -
[270]
Hybrids: need cap, need Ammo, 10 second reload, No selective damage type.
ALL of the drawbacks! in one handy weapons system - for convenience!
As for gallente ships themselves: shortest range, slow speed, lowest pg/cpu for their weapons systems. who WOULDNT you want to fly one. Gallente - the HONOUR tanking race.
|
|
White Tree
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:42:00 -
[271]
Its a combination of several factors, in my opinion:
1. Projectiles and Lasers were looked at in recent history. They were both altered and improved in different ways, Hybrids were ignored.
2. The gameplay style that once allowed Hybrids to be useful (i.e. pre-Nano nerf) is gone. The game has change significantly making Hybrid weapon style gameplay mostly redundant on a level above Frigate gameplay.
3. Gallente hulls are PLAGUED with fitting issues. There's either never enough grid or CPU to fit the ships the way they should be fit. Races like Minmatar do not have any problems fitting all of their best guns as well as prop and a sufficient tank. Gallente absolutely cannot fit their Tank, their Prop and their highest tier of weaponry.
I am hopeful that CCP Tallest will get around to looking at Gallente eventually. I don't mind the idea that some ships are bad and that there's flavor of the month here and there but having an entire faction be useless save for one or two subcaps (Lachesis & Taranis) is absolutely absurd.
Its about time that Hybrids (and Gallente!) got some love. _______________________________________
Follow me on Twitter! |
LittleTerror
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:13:00 -
[272]
Railguns are a joke, god they are so awful, don't even know why I trained them, they tickle... Blaster boats are too slow and before you even get into effective range you're half dead anyway.
They either need to give more speed, damage, range, or armor to blaster boats and railguns just need a nice boost, ships like the harpy are made for them but rails plain suck imo or experience in using them. Rails imo should do more damage than lasers at longer ranges but lasers are fine as they are and DON'T need a nerf, I'd actually like to see the rokh used more for sniping in fleet engagements. The rokh has the range and its perfect it just lacks the damage and so it would be my last choice over better ships with same range but more damage.
|
LittleTerror
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 14:16:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Adonlude I agree. Fix hybrids. I want so desperately to use my Rokh and buy an Eagle and stuff.
/Signed
+1 Yup I too would love to actually be able to use those ships i trained for, if people are not flying those ships it is obvious they are broken. |
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.10 23:05:00 -
[274]
Originally by: White Tree Its a combination of several factors, in my opinion:
1. Projectiles and Lasers were looked at in recent history. They were both altered and improved in different ways, Hybrids were ignored.
2. The gameplay style that once allowed Hybrids to be useful (i.e. pre-Nano nerf) is gone. The game has change significantly making Hybrid weapon style gameplay mostly redundant on a level above Frigate gameplay.
3. Gallente hulls are PLAGUED with fitting issues. There's either never enough grid or CPU to fit the ships the way they should be fit. Races like Minmatar do not have any problems fitting all of their best guns as well as prop and a sufficient tank. Gallente absolutely cannot fit their Tank, their Prop and their highest tier of weaponry.
I am hopeful that CCP Tallest will get around to looking at Gallente eventually. I don't mind the idea that some ships are bad and that there's flavor of the month here and there but having an entire faction be useless save for one or two subcaps (Lachesis & Taranis) is absolutely absurd.
Its about time that Hybrids (and Gallente!) got some love.
Next time you are in Iceland. You should put a fire under their chairs and get them working to fix this.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Rykuss
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.08.11 00:57:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Digital Messiah
Originally by: White Tree Its a combination of several factors, in my opinion:
1. Projectiles and Lasers were looked at in recent history. They were both altered and improved in different ways, Hybrids were ignored.
2. The gameplay style that once allowed Hybrids to be useful (i.e. pre-Nano nerf) is gone. The game has change significantly making Hybrid weapon style gameplay mostly redundant on a level above Frigate gameplay.
3. Gallente hulls are PLAGUED with fitting issues. There's either never enough grid or CPU to fit the ships the way they should be fit. Races like Minmatar do not have any problems fitting all of their best guns as well as prop and a sufficient tank. Gallente absolutely cannot fit their Tank, their Prop and their highest tier of weaponry.
I am hopeful that CCP Tallest will get around to looking at Gallente eventually. I don't mind the idea that some ships are bad and that there's flavor of the month here and there but having an entire faction be useless save for one or two subcaps (Lachesis & Taranis) is absolutely absurd.
Its about time that Hybrids (and Gallente!) got some love.
Next time you are in Iceland. You should put a fire under their chairs and get them working to fix this.
Maybe we should protest. Can I have your Vindicator? :D |
VaL Iscariot
Caldari The Concilium Enterprises Spectrum Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.08.11 03:45:00 -
[276]
Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:38 Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:13
Originally by: Jones Bones Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots.
The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking.
this. stop sucking at using blasters and blasters won't suck.
|
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.11 05:36:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Rykuss Maybe we should protest. Twisted Evil Can I have your Vindicator? :D
If I had one and it did something.
Originally by: VaL Iscariot Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:38 Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:13
Originally by: Jones Bones Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots.
The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking.
this. stop sucking at using blasters and blasters won't suck.
You must be new here. Not every player is pro. And when it comes down to it. No one should expect every player to be above and beyond "average" piloting skill. Even if there are people who make hybrids work with select ships, in even more select situations. It doesn't mean they globally function properly. CCP, the CSM, and a huge majority of the player base, all see this issue. So please stop trolling, we aren't even crossing yo bridge.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Suitonia
Gallente Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 03:20:00 -
[278]
Originally by: VaL Iscariot Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:38 Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:13
Originally by: Jones Bones Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots.
The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking.
this. stop sucking at using blasters and blasters won't suck.
Please teach me how to be pro enough to be able to surpass mathematics. ---
|
Pertuabo Enkidgan
|
Posted - 2011.08.12 10:04:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Pertuabo Enkidgan on 12/08/2011 10:05:36 Recently switched to lasers/Amarr ship, and haven't regret it since.
It leaves a bad business mark for new people when you have ship and gun inbalancements. You know....for the last years.
|
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.14 21:50:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Suitonia
Originally by: VaL Iscariot Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:38 Edited by: VaL Iscariot on 11/08/2011 03:48:13
Originally by: Jones Bones Blasters are fine. Fix bad pilots.
The only thing you could possible argue for is even better tracking.
this. stop sucking at using blasters and blasters won't suck.
Please teach me how to be pro enough to be able to surpass mathematics.
I would love a response to this. As I would like to learn the secrets to improve my max velocity, range, and damage, with "skill".
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
|
Hot Tubes
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.08.15 02:08:00 -
[281]
I'm going to make some very unpopular suggestions with anyone who flies Minnie, but this is what I feel needs to be addressed before there can be a decent level of balance. Note this doesn't particularly deal with rails or long range weapons in general, as I'm not as familiar with them. So, with that said, turret rebalance:
First: Bring other turrets down a bit to be not stupid OP.
# Scorch ammo needs range cut by 33-50%. Abaddons with no optimal range bonuses shouldn't be able to have 45km optimal with scorch and 10km falloff.
# All crystals should take 10 seconds to switch/reload. **** roleplay reasons, this is game balance reasoning.
# The bonus to falloff given by tracking enhancers should be substantially reduced from the current (T2 is 30% bonus. I don't know a decent value but let's just say cut by 50%). The current level of falloff reached with autocannons is ****ing ridiculous.
# Base tracking on autocannons should AT MOST be 50% of the equivalent blaster. They usually fight at long ranges, meaning that while they move faster their relative speed to the target is lower and so tracking isn't as necessary. Plus all those tracking enhancers which are practically mandatory on minnie ships will boost tracking a little anyway. Blasters should be the best tracking of all turrets. Too many minnie pilot can keep range and pick off frigs with awesome tracking and then race up beside a target and brawl the **** out of it due to having good enough tracking to get right up beside them.
# INCREASE fitting requirements of projectiles to more closely match those of hybrids and lasers. An option people often ask for is to make it easier to fit the top tier of hybrids but, using blasters as an example, this completely makes elctrons and ions useless if neutrons can always be fit AND have prop mod AND have massive tank. There is good reason for the current trade off, and projectile weapons currently don't require this trade.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hybrid/gallente buff
# Increase base top speed of gallente ships to be the highest of all. They should, with prop module, be able to scream in a straight line towards something and catch it. Keep agility as it is now. With good piloting they can still be avoided by minnie ships. Like in a bull fight, you don't run in a straight line away from the ****ing bull, you run perpendicular to it as it can't turn as fast.
# Reduce the speed reduction incurred by using trimarks and armour plates.
# Reduce the capacitor requirement of firing hybrids. Reduce reload time to 5 seconds (to facilitate using Null on approach then when/if you snag someone a change to a close range ammo doesn't **** you over).
# For small blasters, increase base optimal range. It's slightly nuts to have an optimal of 500m roughly when you're piloting an interceptor which will refuse to orbit any closer than 1000m+ unless you practically stop the damn ship.
# Tracking boost to all blasters. Ballpark figure of 20%
# 5-10% dps boost, probably erring towards 5% due to the freak of nature known as the Vindicator.
|
Digital Messiah
Gallente Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 06:58:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Hot Tubes I'm going to make some very unpopular suggestions with anyone who flies Minnie, but this is what I feel needs to be addressed before there can be a decent level of balance. Note this doesn't particularly deal with rails or long range weapons in general, as I'm not as familiar with them. So, with that said, turret rebalance:
First: Bring other turrets down a bit to be not stupid OP.
# Scorch ammo needs range cut by 33-50%. Abaddons with no optimal range bonuses shouldn't be able to have 45km optimal with scorch and 10km falloff.
# All crystals should take 10 seconds to switch/reload. **** roleplay reasons, this is game balance reasoning.
# The bonus to falloff given by tracking enhancers should be substantially reduced from the current (T2 is 30% bonus. I don't know a decent value but let's just say cut by 50%). The current level of falloff reached with autocannons is ****ing ridiculous.
# Base tracking on autocannons should AT MOST be 50% of the equivalent blaster. They usually fight at long ranges, meaning that while they move faster their relative speed to the target is lower and so tracking isn't as necessary. Plus all those tracking enhancers which are practically mandatory on minnie ships will boost tracking a little anyway. Blasters should be the best tracking of all turrets. Too many minnie pilot can keep range and pick off frigs with awesome tracking and then race up beside a target and brawl the **** out of it due to having good enough tracking to get right up beside them.
# INCREASE fitting requirements of projectiles to more closely match those of hybrids and lasers. An option people often ask for is to make it easier to fit the top tier of hybrids but, using blasters as an example, this completely makes elctrons and ions useless if neutrons can always be fit AND have prop mod AND have massive tank. There is good reason for the current trade off, and projectile weapons currently don't require this trade.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hybrid/gallente buff
# Increase base top speed of gallente ships to be the highest of all. They should, with prop module, be able to scream in a straight line towards something and catch it. Keep agility as it is now. With good piloting they can still be avoided by minnie ships. Like in a bull fight, you don't run in a straight line away from the ****ing bull, you run perpendicular to it as it can't turn as fast.
# Reduce the speed reduction incurred by using trimarks and armour plates.
# Reduce the capacitor requirement of firing hybrids. Reduce reload time to 5 seconds (to facilitate using Null on approach then when/if you snag someone a change to a close range ammo doesn't **** you over).
# For small blasters, increase base optimal range. It's slightly nuts to have an optimal of 500m roughly when you're piloting an interceptor which will refuse to orbit any closer than 1000m+ unless you practically stop the damn ship.
# Tracking boost to all blasters. Ballpark figure of 20%
# 5-10% dps boost, probably erring towards 5% due to the freak of nature known as the Vindicator.
Some very good points. I was hoping by now CCP would step in to comment or provide a feedback / discussion thread to facilitate weapon balance issues.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
WeirdNoise
Caldari tagueuletoi
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 11:31:00 -
[283]
When I joined Eve in 2004 and later on up to 2006 or so, projectiles were the "OMG SO BORKED CCP HAS TO FIX THEM" weapon flavor of the years. I didn't mind too much : although this was indeed ominous, I still found projectiles fun and decided to train them up.
Are hybrids in need of a boost ? Maybe. Will I cry if projectiles get nerfed? Surely. BUT... such threads and community initiatives are misleading.
Blasters used to be touted as the most damaging weapons in the game and there was no mention of the slowness of armor tanked gallente ships _negating_ their advantage, it was seen as a necessary drawback. So what has really changed over the years? Enlighten me.
I trained projectiles despite the cries of "it's so borked" because I found them FUN and I LIKED them. I also trained hybrids but I want to keep my projo goodness. So don't whine too hard because you know what happens when you do : some big bad daddy comes along and "fixes" things in a way that makes everyone discontent.
Back then... people were training Caldari pilots because it was the easy-win race. They were dropping their millions of projectiles and even lasers skill points because their 'Pests or Apocs couldn't compete with Ravens in missions... nor in pvp. Are you seeing tons of Gallente players emigrating en masse to the Minmatar side just to get by ? Not yet.
Are you seeing Gallente boats fitting projectiles ? Nope, not yet. But we used to see plenty of Minmatar combat ships pilots fitting rails and lasers. Things were that bad.
So my point is : play what you like. If it doesn't work as well as other choices, so ****ing what ? If you think gaming a RPG is about picking the "best" race, the "best" equipment and the "best" tactics, I regret having to share my playfield with you.
I always felt admiration for the Tempest pilots who didn't whine about the "borked" state of projos but instead explained how their Pests were awesome and fun when played smartly, while most everyone around them was whining about the same cards they had been dealt.
Note: I'm Caldari but it was a choice purely based on looks : my first char was a Sebiestor Minmatar and he was so ugly I dropped him in a week. Being a noob in caldari space I let my place of birth influence my gameplay and training choices. Hence me half-blood psychology and my ambivalence towards minmatar and caldari starting card decks.
|
Junky Juke
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 12:20:00 -
[284]
Really usefull thread here!!! CCP should take a look at this.
My personal experience with Gallente/hybrid:
I ran lvl4 missions in my Megathron Navy Issue until few months ago. I was happy with it. ... One day I started to run some missions with a corp mate with a Maelstrom. He could tank everything with only 1 ship fitting while doing a lot of damage, I had to swap my hardners and orher low slot modules to adapt the ship to every single mission and for the hardest missions (Worlds Collide, The Assault etc) I had to lower my DPS in favor of better tanking and cap stability.
There was something wrong. I could not believe that a Faction and Expensive BS cannot perform as a T1 regular BS. After hours to play around with EFT I decided to cross-train Minmatar and jumped on a Maelstrom... From that day I left my Mega parked in my hangar!
Gallente hulls and weapons need AS SOON AS POSSIBLE to be balanced with the other races!
|
Terrorform
Gallente
|
Posted - 2011.08.25 16:04:00 -
[285]
Lies!
Blasters are awesome
"My ambition is handicapped by laziness"
- Charles Bukowski |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: [one page] |