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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
650
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:26:00 -
[151] - Quote
The Slayer wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
2 basic rules.
1- No plastic wraps
2- Not over 2 bill.
How hard is this to understand?
This is it boiled down into two REALLY simple points. This is how to stop us ganking you. ITS REALLY EASY.
Quick question. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I wanted to make sure.
You can see inside single plastic wraps, can't you?
It's only double wraps you can't see inside? FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:27:00 -
[152] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:In Eve you can choose to be anything you want, what I don't understand is why so many choose to be stupid.
Laziness. I'd be willing to bet that some of those ganked freighters were probably on autopilot. Even if they weren't, the fact that their pilots were taking them through a red-hot ganking system rather than take the long way around indicates more laziness. A quick check of the galaxy map with the "ships destroyed in last 24 hours" would have indicated that they were passing through a very dangerous area; a check of eve-kill would have shown that it was open season on freighters. And on top of all that, they were carrying stuff like blueprints and PLEX that could have been carried much more safely by a shuttle or a fast frigate, but no: they didn't want to make two trips, so they just dump it into the freighter's hold and hit the "autopilot" button.
You know what the sad thing is? Freighter pilots may be a bit more careful for a few days, but a week or two from now it'll all be forgotten.
Good news for the Goons, I guess.
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baltec1
Bat Country
2147
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:32:00 -
[153] - Quote
Soundwave Plays Diablo wrote:
Hauling 12 plex in anything is stupid.
Not hauling in a hauler is stupid.
Find the happy medium.
They call it a blocade runner. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:37:00 -
[154] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:The Slayer wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
2 basic rules.
1- No plastic wraps
2- Not over 2 bill.
How hard is this to understand?
This is it boiled down into two REALLY simple points. This is how to stop us ganking you. ITS REALLY EASY. Quick question. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I wanted to make sure. You can see inside single plastic wraps, can't you? It's only double wraps you can't see inside?
The no wraps rules always applies. If you wrap it, either you are stupid in making your cargo look like it's worth a lot OR you are an idiot carrying over 2 bill in a freighter. In both case, you should expect to be shot at. Just look up the 200 mill isk of trit freighter killed. It was wrapped. No one knew it was trit till they could open it or see the eve-kill report. They didn't let it pass. They lost over it but I am pretty sure the made thier money back on the next freighter.
Long story short, NO WRAPS or you will be shot. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4730
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:48:00 -
[155] - Quote
step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot please leave |
angel 70
angel's70 Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:50:00 -
[156] - Quote
I write very bad english. I will help me with a translator-program. even if I value my goods I transport the low regard, the loss is greater than what the enemy is losing ships. about 11 brutix can take a freighter in a few seconds to destroy, there are also examples of this on the kill board. is it warps as freighter pilot in high sec, the warping of gate to gate to 0, push away from the warp on preventing and pushed out of the reach of the sentry guns, you lost. you can not control it anymore. this should be tolerated by ccp more we do not need high sec some will think sure if they are even still fly the freighter, with the risk?
therefore look forward freight companies which are much lighter ready to take the risk for a reward for conformity. that will affect the selling price of the goods. what many people forget that there are items which, in the quantities and volumes, are difficult to transport smaller freighters. there will probably be any ship that the corp buys in jita, might have to pick up yourself. that's how it looks with the transportation of battleships to jita. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
650
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:50:00 -
[157] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:The Slayer wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
2 basic rules.
1- No plastic wraps
2- Not over 2 bill.
How hard is this to understand?
This is it boiled down into two REALLY simple points. This is how to stop us ganking you. ITS REALLY EASY. Quick question. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I wanted to make sure. You can see inside single plastic wraps, can't you? It's only double wraps you can't see inside? The no wraps rules always applies. If you wrap it, either you are stupid in making your cargo look like it's worth a lot OR you are an idiot carrying over 2 bill in a freighter. In both case, you should expect to be shot at. Just look up the 200 mill isk of trit freighter killed. It was wrapped. No one knew it was trit till they could open it or see the eve-kill report. They didn't let it pass. They lost over it but I am pretty sure the made thier money back on the next freighter. Long story short, NO WRAPS or you will be shot.
Or you're a freighter pilot doing courier contract runs for someone. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:51:00 -
[158] - Quote
Andski wrote:step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot
The payout is higher than the market price + insurance cost? |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:55:00 -
[159] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:The Slayer wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:
2 basic rules.
1- No plastic wraps
2- Not over 2 bill.
How hard is this to understand?
This is it boiled down into two REALLY simple points. This is how to stop us ganking you. ITS REALLY EASY. Quick question. I'm pretty sure I'm right, but I wanted to make sure. You can see inside single plastic wraps, can't you? It's only double wraps you can't see inside? The no wraps rules always applies. If you wrap it, either you are stupid in making your cargo look like it's worth a lot OR you are an idiot carrying over 2 bill in a freighter. In both case, you should expect to be shot at. Just look up the 200 mill isk of trit freighter killed. It was wrapped. No one knew it was trit till they could open it or see the eve-kill report. They didn't let it pass. They lost over it but I am pretty sure the made thier money back on the next freighter. Long story short, NO WRAPS or you will be shot. Or you're a freighter pilot doing courier contract runs for someone.
They charge a price to cover thier risk. I am pretty sure they don't come here crying. At least I hope they don't.
New rules for hauling contracts :
No transport of double wraps. It makes you a target.
Note : This is intended for new player. Veteran hauler know how to deal with contracts and judging the risks. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1089
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 18:56:00 -
[160] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot The payout is higher than the market price + insurance cost? You use a cargo scanner to see what they are hauling on the other side of the gate. T3 hulls and PLEX can make it worth it...
Personally I love hearing about people in freighters that got ganked. I'm REALLY impressed when I hear about one group or another ganking a jump freighter. Lots of EHP there... I think empire gankers are ballsy pirates. It's not easy.
Good job to whoever can pull of ganking HS freighters.
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:00:00 -
[161] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot The payout is higher than the market price + insurance cost? You use a cargo scanner to see what they are hauling on the other side of the gate. T3 hulls and PLEX can make it worth it... Personally I love hearing about people in freighters that got ganked. I'm REALLY impressed when I hear about one group or another ganking a jump freighter. Lots of EHP there... I think empire gankers are ballsy pirates. It's not easy. Good job to whoever can pull of ganking HS freighters.
Did you read what Andski wrote before posting? My question was related to this. It's obviously a way to try to troll gankers by making somethign worthless look more expensive. Wrap 1 trit in a double wrap and go warp to 10 km of the gate. If the payout is higher than freighter market cost + unsurance, you make money doing this and the gankers lose big time. If the payout is not higher, then you both lose but you get to laugh at the wasted ships. |
Idris Helion
University of Caille Gallente Federation
73
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:01:00 -
[162] - Quote
angel 70 wrote: what many people forget that there are items which, in the quantities and volumes, are difficult to transport smaller freighters. there will probably be any ship that the corp buys in jita, might have to pick up yourself. that's how it looks with the transportation of battleships to jita.
1. Make multiple trips. Unless you can afford to sneeze off the 1.5B ISK cost of a freighter (plus whatever cargo you lost), the extra time between destinations is well worth it. 2. Make the trip in several legs. Travel a few jumps, dock up, reconnoiter, make a few more jumps, dock up, etc. Alternatively, use a scout. 3. If you're carrying minerals or ore in your freighter, don't wrap it. Wrapping it only makes gankers think you're carrying much more valuable cargo. 4. If you must carry valuable cargo that takes up a lot of space, use an Orca to transport them. Yes, you'll still have to make multiple trips, but an Orca is a lot more likely to survive the trip than a freighter. 5. If you *must* use a freighter for high-value goods on long-haul journeys, always take an escort. An EWAR/logi vessel is probably more use than a combat escort to fight gankers, because all the escort has to do is keep you alive until CONCORD arrives.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1089
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:04:00 -
[163] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Did you read what Andski wrote before posting? My question was related to this. It's obviously a way to try to troll gankers by making somethign worthless look more expensive. Wrap 1 trit in a double wrap and go warp to 10 km of the gate. If the payout is higher than freighter market cost + unsurance, you make money doing this and the gankers lose big time. If the payout is not higher, then you both lose but you get to laugh at the wasted ships.
I'm saying the gankers have a lot on the line for each gank too... it ain't cheap to gank a freighter in HS. They've thought it out. They know the profit formula (or at least the ringleaders should). They are gankers! That's what they do! Could they make this mistake? Sure. Would they? Highly unlikely.
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Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:08:00 -
[164] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Did you read what Andski wrote before posting? My question was related to this. It's obviously a way to try to troll gankers by making somethign worthless look more expensive. Wrap 1 trit in a double wrap and go warp to 10 km of the gate. If the payout is higher than freighter market cost + unsurance, you make money doing this and the gankers lose big time. If the payout is not higher, then you both lose but you get to laugh at the wasted ships.
I'm saying the gankers have a lot on the line for each gank too... it ain't cheap to gank a freighter in HS. They've thought it out. They know the profit formula (or at least the ringleaders should). They are gankers! That's what they do! Could they make this mistake? Sure. Would they? Highly unlikely.
worth of cargo > 2*cost of ganking then gank
worth of cargo < 2*cost of ganking then let pass
The raw number ofr cost of ganking I read around is 1 bill. Than mean heaul under 2 bill or get blown up.
Wrapping your cargo no matter what it is virtually add 2 bill to the worth of your cargo no matter what it actaully is. Thats why wraps should not be used. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4731
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:08:00 -
[165] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot The payout is higher than the market price + insurance cost?
the difference is a whole lot less than the 1b in taloses that derp into you please leave |
FeralShadow
Black Storm Cartel
160
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:10:00 -
[166] - Quote
God this is the same exact discussion that went on for the Exhumers. Instead of changing their crappy ass behavior exhumer pilots whined until they got it fixed by CCP. Seriously I think now all the PVPers need to whine that "getting instagibbed by concord is unfair" and get that changed too.
FIX YOUR ******** BEHAVIORS instead of expecting CCP to hand you crap on a silver platter.
Shift click to open new window. How the Eve Sandbox Works:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=482176#post482176 "I believe in karma. That's why whenever I do something sh**ty to others, they somehow deserved it." |
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:11:00 -
[167] - Quote
Andski wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot The payout is higher than the market price + insurance cost? the difference is a whole lot less than the 1b in taloses that derp into you
So it's to laugh at the ganker loss then. ok. I was not sure if you could also make money out fo it. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
530
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:16:00 -
[168] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:Gogela wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote:Andski wrote:step 1: buy a freighter step 2: insure it step 3: wrap something worthless step 4: autopilot to a hotspot The payout is higher than the market price + insurance cost? You use a cargo scanner to see what they are hauling on the other side of the gate. T3 hulls and PLEX can make it worth it... Personally I love hearing about people in freighters that got ganked. I'm REALLY impressed when I hear about one group or another ganking a jump freighter. Lots of EHP there... I think empire gankers are ballsy pirates. It's not easy. Good job to whoever can pull of ganking HS freighters. Did you read what Andski wrote before posting? My question was related to this. It's obviously a way to try to troll gankers by making somethign worthless look more expensive. Wrap 1 trit in a double wrap and go warp to 10 km of the gate. If the payout is higher than freighter market cost + unsurance, you make money doing this and the gankers lose big time. If the payout is not higher, then you both lose but you get to laugh at the wasted ships.
lol... if the payout is higher than the freighter market cost + insurance... I'll just buy freighters and suicide them for profit. |
angel 70
angel's70 Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
Idris Helion wrote:angel 70 wrote: what many people forget that there are items which, in the quantities and volumes, are difficult to transport smaller freighters. there will probably be any ship that the corp buys in jita, might have to pick up yourself. that's how it looks with the transportation of battleships to jita. 1. Make multiple trips. Unless you can afford to sneeze off the 1.5B ISK cost of a freighter (plus whatever cargo you lost), the extra time between destinations is well worth it. 2. Make the trip in several legs. Travel a few jumps, dock up, reconnoiter, make a few more jumps, dock up, etc. Alternatively, use a scout. 3. If you're carrying minerals or ore in your freighter, don't wrap it. Wrapping it only makes gankers think you're carrying much more valuable cargo. 4. If you must carry valuable cargo that takes up a lot of space, use an Orca to transport them. Yes, you'll still have to make multiple trips, but an Orca is a lot more likely to survive the trip than a freighter. 5. If you *must* use a freighter for high-value goods on long-haul journeys, always take an escort. An EWAR/logi vessel is probably more use than a combat escort to fight gankers, because all the escort has to do is keep you alive until CONCORD arrives.
all the well-intentioned advices: count you please the loss of a "freighters" minus the sum insured that. you get plus the loss of the cargo hold and the value against what the enemy has losses to minus what can loot his colleagues
one scout brings you nothing when two nanno battleships guarding the incomming-gate, which is wondering who is holding out longer to wait.
the informative one orca longer hold out as I can not verify freighter.
.... take an escort .... you know you have to be in the same corp, it is not enough to be in the same fleet |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
135
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:26:00 -
[170] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote: Maybe you should re-visit the multiple post where a DEV stated ganking in hi-sec was not meant to be profitable. Exploits and flawed mechanics should be addressed.
"someone blew up my velator with 60 PLEXes in it CCP! you said ganking wasn't supposed to be profitable!!"
:3 Goonwaffe is now recruiting feel free to message me in game for information about joining! |
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angel 70
angel's70 Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:28:00 -
[171] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:God this is the same exact discussion that went on for the Exhumers. Instead of changing their crappy ass behavior exhumer pilots whined until they got it fixed by CCP. Seriously I think now all the PVPers need to whine that "getting instagibbed by concord is unfair" and get that changed too.
FIX YOUR ******** BEHAVIORS instead of expecting CCP to hand you crap on a silver platter.
no it is not the same discussion, the asteroid belt, we have no sentry gunns and which one must be pushed away |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
530
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:31:00 -
[172] - Quote
1.) A freighter has 200k EHP, not 100k EHP.... It takes a fairly organized and coordinated group assault to take out a freighter within the concord response timer.
2.) The PvP logoff timer is irrelevant to suicide gankers, as they need to gank a ship within the concord response time, which is less than the 1 minute non-aggressed logoff timer. So, they won't shoot your ship with a velator prior to the start of a gank, because it will bring concord to the grid much, much too early!
3.) CCP should not coddle to the stupid. If you are flying your freighter with 5b in cargo, then you are going to get ganked when they find out. Just because you can carry 900k m3 in a ship, does not mean you should... The risk vs reward for suicide ganking is easy to determine, and every PILOT in highsec, be it in a mission running BS, an iteron V, an exhumer, or a freighter should understand that if another player can gank your ship and collect enough loot from it to profit, they will. As long as unauthorized highsec aggression is allowed, this fundamental concept will NEVER change.... all that changes is the minimum value of modules/cargo necessary for a ganker to make a profit. Rebalancing transport ships and freighters will only increase the threshhold, and while a minor tweaking is reasonable, a significant buff is out of line.
4.) Bumping for the sake of harassment, and not for the sake of profit, is wrong, and can probably be considered an exploit if done for an extended period of time (like for more than 50s)! Less than that, and I can believe you are preventing them from warping while you gather a gank force, more than that and your either too incompetent to deserve the kill, or your just harassing a player, which is a violation of the EULA! Unfortunately, I have no idea how this is enforceable. |
Mr. Orange
Band of Freelancers
16
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:38:00 -
[173] - Quote
Why has no one said a word about a Rapier/Huggin escort? Did CCP change that?!
Fleet up with your freighter buddy or alt, web the freighter as soon as he uncloaks and initiates warp. Boom, insta warp!
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TharOkha
0asis Group
50
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:41:00 -
[174] - Quote
Ravenous Wolf wrote:I see the focus is on players who carry massive cargos. What about people like me? They are bumping my freighter for the lulz, and doing it to others too. It's pure grief, i cannot warp away, i cannot get to the gate, i cannot do anything except log out from the game and hope to find them gone later.
Bumping freighter in hisec just for fun is grief play. Yes you can petition it GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Samahiel Sotken
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:41:00 -
[175] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) The PvP logoff timer is irrelevant to suicide gankers, as they need to gank a ship within the concord response time, which is less than the 1 minute non-aggressed logoff timer. So, they won't shoot your ship with a velator prior to the start of a gank, because it will bring concord to the grid much, much too early!
It does matter in the case where [redacted]. You know, I'd rather not give that secret away, it's not a common case but it does happen. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
650
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:46:00 -
[176] - Quote
Samahiel Sotken wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: 2.) The PvP logoff timer is irrelevant to suicide gankers, as they need to gank a ship within the concord response time, which is less than the 1 minute non-aggressed logoff timer. So, they won't shoot your ship with a velator prior to the start of a gank, because it will bring concord to the grid much, much too early!
It does matter in the case where [redacted]. You know, I'd rather not give that secret away, it's not a common case but it does happen.
It's also not /particularly/ secret. Just needs people to think about it.
Thought that pretty much means anyone whining about being ganked in a freighter full of ferrogel won't think of it. Needs a modicum of intelligence. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Fish Alabel
A Big Enough Lever Numquam Ambulare Solus
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:49:00 -
[177] - Quote
BillyBanter wrote:I studied how this goon corp is ganking so many freighters in Uedema and surrounding systems. They wait for a target, once a freighter is in the system they will bump it to stop it from going anywhere. They will shoot it with an alt character to get the freighter into pvp, this stops the pilot from logging out. Due to how effective this is, there is no escape for the freighter pilot. Once you've jumped into that system in a freighter, you've given them a 100% guaranteed kill on you. Once the sec status of the alt character is too low, they replace it with a new one.
I also watched their characters log in one by one and then suddenly all of them logged off on my contacts at precisely the same moment, looks like his computer crashed :D
Checked their character history, about half of them joined the corp on the same day and the other half were all new characters, created on the same day, earlier this year.
They also use log in traps, to trick people into thinking they're offline, the bumpers wait for a target and when one is found and held in place, the ganking characters are logged in to destroy it.
Perhaps everyone should start doing this, it's a really easy way to earn isk and get epic kills. Plenty of people with multiple accounts and the time to burn.
For a list of their ganking characters just look up Furious Father on a killboard and see his freighter kills and who was part of it.
Solution. Don't carry billions of isk in a freighter. Only carry so much so you won't be a target. |
Samahiel Sotken
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:53:00 -
[178] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote: It's also not /particularly/ secret. Just needs people to think about it.
Thought that pretty much means anyone whining about being ganked in a freighter full of ferrogel won't think of it. Needs a modicum of intelligence.
Oh yeah, if you've played the game at all you can figure out a number of different uses. But why should I give away part of the experience of aggression mechanics I've earned through playing station and gate games with the 0rphanage and God Squad? |
baltec1
Bat Country
2150
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:54:00 -
[179] - Quote
angel 70 wrote: no it is not the same discussion, the asteroid belt, we have no sentry gunns and which one must be pushed away
Just to point out, a good number of these frieghters are being killed off the gates which means no sentries. |
Pak Narhoo
Knights of Kador
692
|
Posted - 2012.09.18 19:56:00 -
[180] - Quote
Fish Alabel wrote:BillyBanter wrote:I studied how this goon corp is ganking so many freighters in Uedema and surrounding systems. They wait for a target, once a freighter is in the system they will bump it to stop it from going anywhere. They will shoot it with an alt character to get the freighter into pvp, this stops the pilot from logging out. Due to how effective this is, there is no escape for the freighter pilot. Once you've jumped into that system in a freighter, you've given them a 100% guaranteed kill on you. Once the sec status of the alt character is too low, they replace it with a new one.
I also watched their characters log in one by one and then suddenly all of them logged off on my contacts at precisely the same moment, looks like his computer crashed :D
Checked their character history, about half of them joined the corp on the same day and the other half were all new characters, created on the same day, earlier this year.
They also use log in traps, to trick people into thinking they're offline, the bumpers wait for a target and when one is found and held in place, the ganking characters are logged in to destroy it.
Perhaps everyone should start doing this, it's a really easy way to earn isk and get epic kills. Plenty of people with multiple accounts and the time to burn.
For a list of their ganking characters just look up Furious Father on a killboard and see his freighter kills and who was part of it. Solution. Don't carry billions of isk in a freighter. Only carry so much so you won't be a target.
Better solution, avoid the system(s) we speak of here, at all. Oh, yeah, it helps tremendously if you're not AFK using your freighter, but meh, no one listens to that so why do I even bother... Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm... |
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