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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 63 post(s) |
Lord MuffloN
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
15
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:33:00 -
[181] - Quote
Some thoughts:
20% damage reduction? Maybe a bit too high, 10-15% perhaps. Are the changes to range and so only for guided missiles or all? TD's will need an overall nerf, not much. Medium rails and beams still suck. Hurricanes double damage bonus makes 720 artys "too good" compared to the rest of the mid sized weaponry, but I'm sure it'll be nerfed once the hammer swings to battlecruisers, oh, they're next on the list are they? *glee*
EDIT: Seeing Minmatar pilots having to choose between gank and tank, their misty eyes and dialated pupills along with the general panic and confusion, oh god, it's so sweet and so long overdue, the saying that he who waits for something good never waits too long, it's so true, it was all worth this.
But all in all I think most of the changes are good, keep it up! |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
458
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:34:00 -
[182] - Quote
While I'm not particularly against those changes, I feel the need to state/remind a few things.
HAMs really are underused right now. Except for the few HAM Drakes and the HAM PVE Tengus (I don't see many HAM PVE Tengus, and everytime I suggest that a corpmate should use HAM, it's always the same "I want to shoot farther than 5kms, thank you"), every Tengu is a HM Tengu, every Drake is a HM Drake.
You should really look into those so you can released both changes at the same time.
I'm against the Hurricane change. Change one of the two damage bonuses to something else, remove the missile launcher slots and add a turret hardpoint. That would help with the PG nerf you want, wouldn't hurt the DPS so much, and it would definetly look cool.
This is a creative nerf, and it would still allow armor tanked autocanes. Which is good.
And about the HM missile changes, I really feel like the problem is the Drake, not the HMs. The Drake's problem is its tank. It has a good damage projection, low DPS and very high tank (That can challenge battleships' ).
This has to change. But I don't think that giving it an even worse DPS will fix it the way it should be fixed.
I'm pretty sure the solution revolves around the Drakes' bonuses.
Also, I don't know if It's completly out of the "Winter rebalance patch", but please, please look into BS sized missiles so that the Raven becomes a usable battleship again, for both PVP and PVE purposes (What I mean is that new Caldaries train for the Drake, and then train for the Tengu. Make it so that it's actually cool to aim for a usable Raven).
If you want a couple ideas for the Raven :
A PG buff (+3000 PWG so you can actually fit dual Heavy Neutralizers without fitting mods. It's a good way to make an otherwise baddish ship a good ship. The Tempest without its' neuts would be "meh").
A change to the "10% bonus to velocity for all BS sized missiles" bonus is required.
Along with this, buff torpedoes speed.
Who shoots Cruise missiles at long range ? I mean, for PVE purposes, you won't shoot farther than 100km anyway, and for PVP purposes...I don't think I need to explain.
Now Torpedoes. Without skills, they hit at 9kms. Which is...less than enjoyable. Maybe they'll be usable with the new tracking enhancer change and that'll be cool. But seriously. Give torps a bit more range, and switch that velocity bonus to something usable/useful. Maybe you'll end up with a usable PVP Missile battleship. Even tho I'm pretty sure this will never happen.
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Sellendis
Masters of Zen Circle-Of-Two
156
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:34:00 -
[183] - Quote
Holy crap people, its all ok, since we are getting a massive Cruise miss. buff.....o wait.....what? Didn't think so..
So can CCP tell us what Caldari ships we are supposed to fly? Since the rest of the lineup are almost useless at their roles, Raven, CN raven, SNI. What about rails? Crappy overall.
One working weapon system nerfed with range and dmg? Ok, what do we get in return? Can we get 20% DPS and range buff for minmatar ACs? It would only be fair. |
Grog Drinker
The Tuskers
90
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:35:00 -
[184] - Quote
Not sure I like the tracking changes with tds and missiles. The HML and cane nerf both look good and should shake up the meta game significantly. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
38
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:38:00 -
[185] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:Alx Warlord wrote:and what about the heavy assault missile? doesn't it need a buff? noone uses them... Well, thats because the HAM is supposed to be the high-damage, close range variant. Right now heavy missiles are a high-damage, long range variant. There's little reason to equip HAM's when you can get get almost the same DPS and much longer range. Scaling back the heavy missile DPS allows the HAM's to shine as the superior choice if you want maximum DPS. I predict that HAM's will become much more popular for Drakes, caracals, and other ships wanting to achieve optimum DPS in a fitting.
HMs > 10% decrease in damage HAMs > 10% increase in damage
will make things more reasonable |
Anessa Smith
Interference Research Inc Beyond Event Horizon.
1
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:38:00 -
[186] - Quote
does it mean that faction HMLs with faction missiles are going to do more damage than t2 HMLs with t2 fury missiles? |
JEFFRAIDER
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
103
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:38:00 -
[187] - Quote
I think the range nerf is just fine, but the damage nerf to go with it is a bit much. It's not like HMLs are exactly DPS monsters as it is, they only seem sort of out of line with how far you can project their average damage to. I don't see them being useful in any role at all after this nerf. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
292
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:38:00 -
[188] - Quote
Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?) |
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance
109
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:41:00 -
[189] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?)
TCs, TEs, and Drones really are something that need to be added to the game I guess "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom." |
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
54
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:41:00 -
[190] - Quote
Sellendis wrote:One working weapon system nerfed with range and dmg? Ok, what do we get in return? Can we get 20% DPS and range buff for minmatar ACs? It would only be fair. You might have a future at CCP. You should put in an application.
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Athena Themis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:41:00 -
[191] - Quote
RIP Faildari, hello Amarr supremacy. |
Memrox
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:41:00 -
[192] - Quote
Fozzie was a null sec blobber....... need i say more? |
baltec1
Bat Country
2143
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:42:00 -
[193] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?)
Use ECM?
Use disruptors? |
Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
194
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:43:00 -
[194] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?) You ********? Drones basically ignore TDs. Neuts too. Painters, webs, TCs, TEs all help counter TDs. Also ammo and weapon choice. Piloting still applies, orbitting at optimal with guns vs a missile user hurts your tracking but reduces incoming damage, or sit still for both doing max dps. Also, everyone always wants another tackle mod, and cap injector, and tank mod, and dps mod... |
Ravcharas
GREY COUNCIL Nulli Secunda
181
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:43:00 -
[195] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?) Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm. |
Peter Tjordenskiold
20
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:44:00 -
[196] - Quote
hahaha even a Enyo makes more damage than a Drake |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
714
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:45:00 -
[197] - Quote
Making TD's work against missiles is a major mistake too btw. I like the idea of having a TD-ish mechanic work against missiles, that is not a bad thing per se. But when you make missiles affected by TD then you have a nobrainer to fit TD on every ship that has midslots to spare.
Now picture this; which race has the most mids to spare? Gallente. They also happen to be short range (blaster and drones). when TD will affect all weapontypes, Gallente will just force people to go up close or run. It's a bit too early to paint doomsday scenarios, but this could very well rupture the whole game in the nationality balance. I don't mind flying drone boats myself, my Gallente skills are top notch, but it's worrying overall if the devs just don't even think about this on such an early state of development process, to be honest. Make a new module, TD-ish, that counters missiles, and you got my love, that's a whole different story. AFK-cloaking in a system near you. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
226
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:46:00 -
[198] - Quote
Vicar2008 wrote:While the nerf to HML nerf to range i can agree with, the nerf to damage is pretty dam awful 20% and is a terrible terrible idea imo. Cerebus HAC has just went from bad to Eagle bad, and trust me there now both worst HAC there is.......
I fear this is the truth :(
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Daneel Trevize
Give my 11percent back
195
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:46:00 -
[199] - Quote
Peter Tjordenskiold wrote:hahaha even a Enyo makes more damage than a Drake Than a HAM drake? With the same range? The same EHP behind it to turn DPS into a larger total damage applied? |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
143
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:47:00 -
[200] - Quote
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHA
another nerf
first where supers... then titans... then lets kill otec and nerf tec... now lets kill the drake blob, the welpcanes blob and all tengus blob (what a coincidence, all ship doctrines the CFC uses in mass, lol, pure coincidence of course, no tinfoil teories here)
This just make my work day
Can you see we are like the Borg, we will just adapt and tomorrow we will just use "put be best low cost ship name vs dps ratio here" to blob all our enemies again and again and again!
...and 6 months from now we will all be here nerfing that ship and/or weapon system we will be using at that time...
You can try but you can't stop the blob !
Fake edit: I can see all carriers beeing nerfed next.... "no sentry drones for you" Allow us to change characters of the same account without the need to logout and put the password again. |
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Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
292
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:47:00 -
[201] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?) Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm.
Do you really think that a tracking computer counters a tracking disruptor?
PS. Show me the shield cane fit with a tracking computer and a web. |
Takeshi Yamato
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
432
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:47:00 -
[202] - Quote
Here are some raw numbers useful for understanding the proposed HML, beam laser and artillery changes:
250mm Railgun II with Spike: DPS: 20 Alpha: 92 Optimal: 65 km Falloff: 15 km Cap/sec: -1.1 PG: 187.2 CPU: 31.5
Heavy Beam Laser II with Aurora: DPS: 21 Alpha: 91 Optimal: 54 km Falloff: 10 km Cap/sec: -3.8 PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5) CPU: 27.8
720mm Artillery II with Tremor: DPS: 17 Alpha: 242 Optimal: 54 km Falloff: 22 km Cap/sec: 0 PG: 223.2 (previously 248.5) CPU: 24
Heavy Missile Launcher II with Caldari Navy Scourge: DPS: 23 (previously 29) Alpha: 189 (previously 237) Range: 63 km (previously 84) Cap/sec: 0 PG: 94.5 CPU: 41.3
This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems. |
Anja Suorsa
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
8
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:48:00 -
[203] - Quote
I support all proposed changes for the Winter Expac so far with the exception of
CCP Fozzie wrote: Heavy Missiles -Damage decreased by 20% (rounded to closest digit) -Affects all variant Heavy missiles, including FOF.
Wow. That's pretty terrible. Entire Caldari cruiser/Battlecruiser line made obsolete at range with Med rails being rubbish and HML nerferd into the floor.
Please reconsider. 10% decrease to HML damage and 10% increase for HAMs would surely make more sense?
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.
This doesn't take into account any travel time on your missiles, already the big disadvantage they have. |
Michael Harari
The Hatchery Team Liquid
292
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:50:00 -
[204] - Quote
Takeshi Yamato wrote: This is without any ship bonuses. My view on this is that a 25% range and a 20% dps nerf only seem ridiculous if one ignores just how much better HMLs were than other weapon systems.
Your analysis doesnt include that HMLs dont do full damage to frigates and cruisers (or particularly fast BCs even), regardless of how you pilot. |
Cede Forster
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
81
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:50:00 -
[205] - Quote
my dear drake, my lovely tengu it was fun while it lasted i am sorry but we must part 20% - i am sure you understand we can stay friends - i promise i visit you
in the hanger
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
196
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:50:00 -
[206] - Quote
What does ccp have against the nighthawk is the real question, 2 hml bonuses lol. Such an awesome looking ship too ...... shame. |
muhadin
Origin. Black Legion.
119
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:50:00 -
[207] - Quote
Unforgiven Storm wrote:AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHHAAHA another nerf first where supers... then titans... then lets kill otec and nerf tec... now lets kill the drake blob, the welpcanes blob and all tengus blob (what a coincidence, all ship doctrines the CFC uses in mass, lol, pure coincidence of course, no tinfoil teories here) This just make my work day Can you see we are like the Borg, we will just adapt and tomorrow we will just use "put be best low cost ship name vs dps ratio here" to blob all our enemies again and again and again!...and 6 months from now we will all be here nerfing that ship and/or weapon system we will be using at that time... You can try but you can't stop the blob !Fake edit: I can see all carriers beeing nerfed next.... "no sentry drones for you"
I hope you packed an umbrella and tissues "Love the Life you Live, Live the Life you Love" |
Lin Fatale
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:53:00 -
[208] - Quote
Drake: You killing one of the last usefull caldari ships - range nerf ok, dmg nerf not, drake dmg is already low
Cane: kill the last usefull roaming bc
CCP which BC do you recommend for romings in your super blobby fail sovmechanic universe?
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Corteztkiller
Pwn 'N Play Nulli Secunda
2
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:53:00 -
[209] - Quote
I'm actually largely fighting against drakes so this nerf means good things for me but I actually think it's a little too rough on drakes. So many people use them for PVE and heavy missiles aren't exactly damage machines. Drakes are good for the CFC and HBC because they can be perma mwded and have huge shield buffer, paired with great range.
I think a little less of a damage loss would be fair. Mind you with TE's and TC's affecting missiles maybe assault missiles will be more useful.
So basically the TLDR is that my gut reaction is the damage nerf is too much 5 or 10% paired with the range nerf seems fair. Then maybe make it harder to mount a decent tank on a perma MWD drake. That would be a better nerf. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
38
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Posted - 2012.09.18 15:53:00 -
[210] - Quote
Ravcharas wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Also making TDs affect missiles is goddamn ********. Now there is literally NO situation in which you dont want TDs fitted and there is NO counter to someone using TDs (apart from blobbing them....see a theme?) Fit a tracking enhancer, fit a tracking computer, fit a web, fit a painter, fit neuts, use appropriate ammo, or use ecm.
On my shield tanking ship with 2 slots left over for ewar, one of them is a disruptor, the other one is a web...yeah, i can fit all of those! There is a reason missile ships werent supposed to be affected by TDs and it's because as mostly shield tanks, they don't have ROOM to fit stuff that can fight back, whereas armor ships have 3,4 slots for ewar defence!
As well, if you are a turret boat, if you are getting your tracking disrupted, you can just minimize transversal to hit for your full DPS. With missiles, you cant ever do anything to fix your explosion radius/velocity, except use a TP. It's basically like "You can't do your maximum DPS anymore if I TD you". That's stupid, specific piloting should be able to combat ewar (Getting close up/minimizing transversal)
People are saying "oh, just fit a TC and then you nullify the effect of the TD on you!" Yeah, because my shield tanking missile ship needs another mid slot ewar defence as it is! I already can't fit ECCM, Painters, TDs, or anything else, because I need a slot for a disruptor, web, and MWD! That means the minimum of 6 slots to fit a 3-slot tank and 3 slot ewar is not enough to combat ewar or fight back in any way. Adding TCs to that makes combating ewar on a missile boat even more of a pain! |
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