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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 18:25:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Miilla
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Note that I never said that PLEX is bad. It's a very clever tool CCP came up with to minimize RMT.
The problem is bubbles. Hedging temporarily inflates the price of PLEX, which makes creating more PLEX attractive, which exacerbates the problem. Then when there's so much accumulated PLEX that the rate at which it trickles back onto the market starts to plateau the price, the bubble bursts. Then we start all over again.
I'm fine with that happening to ships, minerals, or any other in-game item. That's part of the game. I'm uncomfortable with the same thing happening to an item where the supply side is real world money. It's an instability that isn't good for anyone.
Tough. Adapt.
I'm sure children dying in Somalia respect and appreciate that position as well as I do.
See? I can do it too!
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.18 18:52:00 -
[62]
More technical problems:
PLEX Age: How do you sell PLEX of different ages on the market? A PLEX with one day remaining until expiration isn't as valuable as a PLEX with 30 days remaining. The current market systems in EVE would require an overhaul to present PLEX age information.
Database Load: Since PLEX would age differently, every PLEX would be unique. This could create significant database load. (And would make PLEX unstackable as a side effect.)
Also, as stated and implied previously, expiring PLEX is a stick instead of a carrot, and as such, would probably lose a lot goodwill in the player base.
----- CCP's NeX Pricing Tiers Affordable: One PLEX Mid: 3-4 PLEX Deluxe: Only for "flamboyantly rich capsuleers" Exceptional: ?? |
Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: stoicfaux More technical problems:
PLEX Age: How do you sell PLEX of different ages on the market? A PLEX with one day remaining until expiration isn't as valuable as a PLEX with 30 days remaining. The current market systems in EVE would require an overhaul to present PLEX age information.
Database Load: Since PLEX would age differently, every PLEX would be unique. This could create significant database load. (And would make PLEX unstackable as a side effect.)
Also, as stated and implied previously, expiring PLEX is a stick instead of a carrot, and as such, would probably lose a lot goodwill in the player base.
As was previously discussed above, you circumvent these problems by categorizing PLEX units. All PLEX in existence are converted into PLEX-3. At the end of the current month, all PLEX-3 turn into PLEX-2. All newly-created PLEX start out as PLEX-3. The following month, PLEX-3 become PLEX-2, and PLEX-2 become PLEX-1. Finally, the next month, PLEX-3 become PLEX-2, PLEX-2 become PLEX-1, and PLEX-1 are destroyed.
So you have 3 item types on the market instead of 1, avoiding your load concerns. As we approach the end of each month, prices of PLEX-3 begin to drop to PLEX-2 levels, prices of PLEX-2 move toward PLEX-1 levels, and PLEX-1 drop to a level that meets the summed demand for gate-time and Aurum.
Personally, I think that's quite an elegant solution.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:06:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/07/2011 19:08:30
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Originally by: stoicfaux More technical problems:
PLEX Age: How do you sell PLEX of different ages on the market? APLEX with one day remaining until expiration isn't as valuable as a PLEX with 30 days remaining. The current market systems in EVE would require an overhaul to present PLEX age information.
Database Load: Since PLEX would age differently, every PLEX would be unique. This could create significant database load. (And would make PLEX unstackable as a side effect.)
Also, as stated and implied previously, expiring PLEX is a stick instead of a carrot, and as such, would probably lose a lot goodwill in the player base.
As was previously discussed above, you circumvent these problems by categorizing PLEX units. All PLEX in existence are converted into PLEX-3. At the end of the current month, all PLEX-3 turn into PLEX-2. All newly-created PLEX start out as PLEX-3. The following month, PLEX-3 become PLEX-2, and PLEX-2 become PLEX-1. Finally, the next month, PLEX-3 become PLEX-2, PLEX-2 become PLEX-1, and PLEX-1 are destroyed.
So you have 3 item types on the market instead of 1, avoiding your load concerns. As we approach the end of each month, prices of PLEX-3 begin to drop to PLEX-2 levels, prices of PLEX-2 move toward PLEX-1 levels, and PLEX-1 drop to a level that meets the summed demand for gate-time and Aurum.
Personally, I think that's quite an elegant solution.
CCP are trying to make Eve more approchable, not by adding more complexity.
ISK, AUR, PLEX-3, PLEX-2, PLEX-1 got any more bright ideas?
Failboat feature is fail.
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:08:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
The problem is bubbles. Hedging temporarily inflates the price of PLEX, which makes creating more PLEX attractive, which exacerbates the problem. Then when there's so much accumulated PLEX that the rate at which it trickles back onto the market starts to plateau the price, the bubble bursts. Then we start all over again.
I'm fine with that happening to ships, minerals, or any other in-game item. That's part of the game. I'm uncomfortable with the same thing happening to an item where the supply side is real world money. It's an instability that isn't good for anyone.
You seem to imply that CCP needs to control the plex market, that would in the end mean that players would buy isk for money and game time for isk, directly from CCP or at least a price set by CCP.
No one is forcing you to use plex, pay your game time with real money or grind your isk in-game. Plex is nothing more the a option provided by CCP to make life easier for the players, i really can't see there is any merit for you argument, it would just make plex less attractive.
Personally i feel the free market forces should dictate the price of plex, and you feel with could be better if CCP manipulate the price, at least i guess we can agree to disagree ;)
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:15:00 -
[66]
Quote: Personally i feel the free market forces should dictate the price of plex, and you feel it could be better if CCP regulate the price by restructuring the market.
With respect, I've changed the above to better reflect my actual position.
Regulation != Manipulation
And yes, I'm happy to agree to disagree. The point of public debate is to present your argument and let the audience decide, not to convince the person arguing the other side.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:22:00 -
[67]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 18/07/2011 19:22:21
Originally by: Miilla
CCP are trying to make Eve more approchable, not by adding more complexity.
ISK, AUR, PLEX-3, PLEX-2, PLEX-1 got any more bright ideas?
It's an elegant solution, but I'm with Miilla on this one. It creates unnecessary complexity.
TBH, with Dust and WoD, instead of adding PLEX expiration mechanics, CCP would be better served trying to figure out how to create MT/Auburm items that people will want to spend their stockpiled PLEX on. In other words, expiring PLEX only benefits Eve, whereas better MT/Aurum items benefits Eve, WoD and Dust.
----- CCP's NeX Pricing Tiers Affordable: One PLEX Mid: 3-4 PLEX Deluxe: Only for "flamboyantly rich capsuleers" Exceptional: ?? |
Kalaed Lyosk
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:47:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Kalaed Lyosk on 18/07/2011 19:48:34
Originally by: stoicfaux CCP would be better served trying to figure out how to create MT/Auburm items that people will want to spend their stockpiled PLEX on.
Let me quote that again for emphasis:
Originally by: stoicfaux CCP would be better served trying to figure out how to create MT/Auburm items that people will want to spend their stockpiled PLEX on.
The things you said about benefiting WoD and Dust too are irrelevant. This is all it comes down to. If stockpiled PLEX is a problem, make people want to convert it. Don't make the players feel they are being punished for CCP's shortsightedness.
The NeX store was supposed to do this, and may yet manage to do so. That will require significantly greater variety in style and price than we see now, as well as regular refreshing of the content. The practical still-birth of the store only made the road harder for CCP.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:48:00 -
[69]
I agree that the complexity is unfortunate.
Creating more uses for Aurum, however, won't drain stockpiles. The more uses for PLEX, be it in Eve or Dust, the safer an investment and hedge it becomes. The stockpiles will only grow over time.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:49:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/07/2011 19:49:42
Fix the game, and make us WANT to spend PLEX for stuff, do promotions and so on.
Business 101.
Don't just come along and say "Oh yeah those gametime chips you bought, well yeah now we're taking them away from you in 30 days, what a ****er eh".
If I wanted to be forced to use credits in a specific period, I would buy more Pay as you Go mobile phone top ups. Not play Eve.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:52:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Kalaed Lyosk
The things you said about benefiting WoD and Dust too are irrelevant. This is all it comes down to. If stockpiled PLEX is a problem, make people want to convert it. Don't make the players feel they are being punished for CCP's shortsightedness.
The people holding PLEX as a hedge will not be goaded into spending it on NeX items. In fact, increasing demand for Aurum only amplifies the advantage of holding onto PLEX, as it guarantees an increase in their value.
You're not seeing this.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.07.18 19:54:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Originally by: Kalaed Lyosk
The things you said about benefiting WoD and Dust too are irrelevant. This is all it comes down to. If stockpiled PLEX is a problem, make people want to convert it. Don't make the players feel they are being punished for CCP's shortsightedness.
The people holding PLEX as a hedge will not be goaded into spending it on NeX items. In fact, increasing demand for Aurum only amplifies the advantage of holding onto PLEX, as it guarantees an increase in their value.
You're not seeing this.
While you are on the bright idea train, add PLEX-4, PLEX-5, PLEX-6.. and while you are at that... find PLANET-X and the SHAVING FOAM ATOM.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:00:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Miilla
While you are on the bright idea train, add PLEX-4, PLEX-5, PLEX-6..
I feel that 6 months is too long. You want to create a sense that trying to speculate in PLEX is too risky.
What? You weren't being serious?
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Kalaed Lyosk
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:03:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Kalaed Lyosk on 18/07/2011 20:05:05
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Originally by: Kalaed Lyosk
The things you said about benefiting WoD and Dust too are irrelevant. This is all it comes down to. If stockpiled PLEX is a problem, make people want to convert it. Don't make the players feel they are being punished for CCP's shortsightedness.
The people holding PLEX as a hedge will not be goaded into spending it on NeX items. In fact, increasing demand for Aurum only amplifies the advantage of holding onto PLEX, as it guarantees an increase in their value.
You're not seeing this.
I am seeing it. I agree that PLEX should be an expiring good, but CCP can't reasonably change the rules on it now.
I'm not saying this because I care about the in-game value of PLEX. I have exactly one PLEX in-game. It's simply not fair, and would be a really horrible idea after everything that has happened lately.
That means CCP must find a way to make voluntary conversion of PLEX attractive to the hoarders. Perhaps this means conversion schemes that are only applicable to players holding massive quantities.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:09:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/07/2011 20:13:03
Originally by: Kalaed Lyosk Edited by: Kalaed Lyosk on 18/07/2011 20:05:05
Originally by: Esan Vartesa
Originally by: Kalaed Lyosk
The things you said about benefiting WoD and Dust too are irrelevant. This is all it comes down to. If stockpiled PLEX is a problem, make people want to convert it. Don't make the players feel they are being punished for CCP's shortsightedness.
The people holding PLEX as a hedge will not be goaded into spending it on NeX items. In fact, increasing demand for Aurum only amplifies the advantage of holding onto PLEX, as it guarantees an increase in their value.
You're not seeing this.
I am seeing it. I agree that PLEX should be an expiring good, but CCP can't reasonably change the rules on it now.
I'm not saying this because I care about the in-game value of PLEX. I have exactly one PLEX in-game. It's simply not fair, and would be a really horrible idea after everything that has happened lately.
That means CCP must find a way to make voluntary conversion of PLEX attractive to the hoarders. Perhaps this means conversion schemes that are only applicable to players holding massive quantities.
You mean the conversion scheme they have today? Convert to 30 days game time or AUR.
Why reinvent the wheel to be square?
Make the game more enjoyable and give us stuff we want to spend PLEX on. But all you are suggesting is "SCREW YOU" to PLEX instaed of saying "We know you like these, here they are"
We are getting remaps for AUR and bloodline changes for AUR and a minigame (gambling in stations) soon, those will gobble up some more PLEX too. Not to mention the custom ships for AUR and more items later plus server convience slots for fittings, for skill queues and celerbral accelerators for learnings that were removed.
More and more AUR sinks will appear soon.
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Tom Gerard
Caldari Deadspace Depot
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:14:00 -
[76]
After reading everything. I must agree the expiration is a good solution.
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Miilla
Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:17:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Miilla on 18/07/2011 20:17:26
Originally by: Tom Gerard After reading everything. I must agree the expiration is a good solution.
This idea has been discussed over and over on the forum prior to the NEX store and the MT direction publication.
There is no need for the expiry date and the result of those discussions was NO and we got the NEX store and MT plan.
The following AUR sinks will drain PLEX
More NEX clothing items NEX Custom skinned ships Neural Remaps Fitting slot additions Skill Queue additons Celerbral Accelerators Bloodline changes AUR Minigame for gambling in station bars
All AUR sinks to come.
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Kalaed Lyosk
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:17:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Miilla
You mean the conversion scheme they have today? Convert to 30 days game time or AUR.
Why reinvent the wheel to be square?
Make the game more enjoyable and give us stuff we want to spend PLEX on. But all you are suggesting is "SCREW YOU" to PLEX instaed of saying "We know you like these, here they are"
We are getting remaps for AUR and bloodline changes for AUR and a minigame (gambling in stations) soon, those will gobble up some more PLEX too. Not to mention the custom ships for AUR and more items later plus server convience slots for fittings, for skill queues and celerbral accelerators for learnings that were removed.
More and more AUR sinks will appear soon.
All that yellow must be messing with your vision. I said that CCP can't switch PLEX to expiring, even though I do agree that it should have been designed that way in the first place.
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Esan Vartesa
Khanid Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:29:00 -
[79]
Don't mind her, she's being emotionyellow.
You're right, changing things now is probably not palatable after recent events and the current atmosphere around here. But it's a growing problem, and throwing more uses for Aurum at it only makes it worse. And yes, I know that that's not going to stop them from doing just that.
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.07.18 20:39:00 -
[80]
OH LOOK, A TOM GERARD THREAD. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.07.18 21:25:00 -
[81]
As I said above..
CCP doesn't need to change the existing plex (it would be a public relations disaster and against consumer protection laws in many states even if state law didn't apply to a foreign company)
They could leave those legacy plex as they are and issue new ones that expire . I wouldn't use the plex 1 2 3 and switch them. I'd name them by expiry date. June 2011, December 2011, March 2012. And you'd only have 3 or 4 that would still exist with the rest expiring worthless. (you wouldn't issue them for everymonth.. some purcahses would last a portion of the roll period longer).
You'd also have the legacy plex with no limit but those would shrink even though they have a bit higher value due to lack of expiration. Some people would use them anyway... and there could be ways to buy some from people who were selling them at a premium on the market.
You don't need black and white solutions to almost anything in the world.. just get closer....if the goal were to get rid of all of them getting rid of 1/2 of them is good in itself.
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.07.18 21:31:00 -
[82]
BTW, I'm not sure that they're that concerned about the overhang of plexes so I don't think the expiration issue is any huge priority. The incremental cost of providing a month of game time probably costs less than a $1.
There is some risk that those plex would fall into the hands of people who intended to pay real $ to ccp but instead recieved those plex from other players for out of game barter (trading currencies in other games if not precisely rmt). Still, the vast majority of them are going to be used by people getting 2nd third 4th and 5th accounts that they never would have paid cash for .
Sitll, expirations would just be a sensible thing to do going forward. Setting the expectation of a future change in value (going to worthless) would give cover for other changes in subscriptions that partially impaired a plex value.
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Portmanteau
Gallente CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2011.07.19 21:01:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Tom Gerard
I have 14 PLEX
Can I help ?
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