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Rowan Breez
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Posted - 2011.07.22 10:32:00 -
[1]
Logistics to 5 Recon ships to 5. Assault ships to 5. etc.
I see alote of this on Bazzar forums, and i keep asking my self, " Why to 5 ?" Do people see the difference between lvl 4 and 5 for T2 Cruiser ships that big, that they would spend 1-1,2 mil SP on it? While at same time they could have spend this SP to train T2 Cruisers and T2 Gunnery skills of another race. What is so significant of traning this skills to Level 5?
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Nero Maxvell
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Posted - 2011.07.22 10:44:00 -
[2]
Recon 5 is almost essential for force recons, it saves you 100(?) cpu on fitting the cloak, meaning you can fit it properly. Logistics 5 helps guardian pilots (and properly other) gaining a cap stable cap chain with one energy tranferer instead of 2, meaning that extra energy tranferer can help sombody else if he get's neuted or some. And 5 for other things gives a little extra juice, which is always good if you plan on flying somthing a lot
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Rowan Breez
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Posted - 2011.07.22 11:24:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Rowan Breez on 22/07/2011 11:25:16
Originally by: Nero Maxvell Recon 5 is almost essential for force recons, it saves you 100(?) cpu on fitting the cloak, meaning you can fit it properly. Logistics 5 helps guardian pilots (and properly other) gaining a cap stable cap chain with one energy tranferer instead of 2, meaning that extra energy tranferer can help sombody else if he get's neuted or some. And 5 for other things gives a little extra juice, which is always good if you plan on flying somthing a lot
Fitting properlay is great, or is it? Will it give you the survivability for the time you spent on training it? From your point of view.
Speaking in Bleach terms: will i be abel to reach a Bankai with it? Or will it just be abit more powerfull Shikai?
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Nero Maxvell
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Posted - 2011.07.22 11:38:00 -
[4]
I admit i don't fly any of those ships, just read about them But for force recon 100(?)cpu makes for one hell of an easier fitting, so it's problably the diffrence between a proper fit and a gimped fit. So for them it's a little like a Bankai. For logis it's just really nifty
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.07.22 12:59:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Othran on 22/07/2011 13:00:16 Depends on the ships. For a Curse then Recon 5 is absolutely worth it. For a Vaga then HAC5 is borderline - probably better training HIC5 for Broadsword.
Oh and you do it for a specific bonus - in the case of the Curse, neut range bonus; for a Scimitar its shield transfer cap reduction, going to find it hard to run cap stable without Logi5. Inties its for the point range etc etc.
For a simple 5% damage bonus then L5 probably isn't worth it, but for most T2 ships it isn't that simple.
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Dani Leone
Gallente Imperfect Bliss
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Posted - 2011.07.23 06:37:00 -
[6]
In the case of any of the TII Hull type skills where fitting bonuses apply, then V is very much a necessity, example, on an alt I have Recon IV and fly a pilgrim with a Core probe launcher fitted and cloak for exploration of wormholes, with Recon V I could fit an expanded probe launcher with just a small change from active to passive tank. Cov ops also benefits in the same way. This just cannot be done with Recon IV without seriously gimping the setup, on Recon V it is a compromise but very doable and the ship becomes a very dangerous opponent that can scan you out of your safe spots.
Logistics V also is a big step up from Logi IV, all V fits should be able to perma run 4x large reps, either cap stable (Oneiros and Scimitar) or require only a single cap transfer inbound (Basilisk, Guardian). This can be done at IV but requires more cap mods compromising your own tank, or more Logi IV pilots depending on the exact hull type.
HIC V expands the size of your deployed bubble making it highly desirable.
I don't really think LV on most other hull types is strictly necessary, check the bonuses and see what you get for your money though. Check it out in EFT, example going from BC IV to V for a Cane Pilot gives a really substantial increase in damage output, for a Drake it also increases shield resists, pumping up its mighty tank still further.
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Hoshi
Hedron Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.23 09:32:00 -
[7]
For logistics it's not question of "why level 5?" but "why only level 4?". A lot of people even considers it giving too much bonus making it almost mandatory. Seen good suggestions of changing it to something like give 50% at level 0 and then 5% per level up to 75% at level 5 (so the max doesn't change).
Currently log 5 reduces cap usage by 15% on paper but in practice it is MUCH more. Say you use 100 cap per activation, with log 4 you will use 40 cap, with log 5 25 cap. That's a 37.5% cap usage reduction, or looking at it from the other side a log 4 logistics will need 60% more cap recharge to be stable than a log 5.
The above change would mean the last level "only" reduce it by 16.7%. ---------------------------------------- "Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason." |
Nimbat
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Posted - 2011.07.23 13:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rowan Breez
Speaking in Bleach terms: will i be abel to reach a Bankai with it? Or will it just be abit more powerfull Shikai?
wat
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Llambda
Space Llama Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.23 14:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Llambda on 23/07/2011 14:57:16
Originally by: Rowan Breez
Fitting properlay is great, or is it?
It is, if you don't like ending up as a comedy KM.
Quote: Speaking in Bleach terms: will i be abel to reach a Bankai with it? Or will it just be abit more powerfull Shikai?
I'm just going to slowly back away now.
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Hamatitio
Caldari EON Solutions The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2011.07.23 19:19:00 -
[10]
Logistics 5 and Recon 5 are two of the biggest improvements in performance for time spent on training in the game.
All the others are for bragging rights ;)
Originally by: Forrest Gump
And that's all I got to say 'bout that.
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KrustyKrab
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
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Posted - 2011.07.23 19:36:00 -
[11]
Edited by: KrustyKrab on 23/07/2011 19:36:21 for me, if a skill gives 5% per level or more, it is almost always worth it to train to L5.
BC5, CS5, Recon 5, Logi 5, HAC5, Traj Analysis 5, etc.
Skills that only give 2% per level are almost never worth it, like weapon specs 5, I just do those to 4. Not worth the 13-20 days to get an extra 2%.
However, a couple of those skills are absolutely essential at some point down the road...Adv Weapon Upgrades being the main one. That extra 2% grid reduction can allow you to get some really awesome fits going without wasting slots or rigs or implants on getting extra grid. I've found this to be the most essential when it comes to fitting Amarr ships up.
3% skills...really depends. Surgical Strike was worth it for me to 5. Rapid Launch as well.
10% or 20% skills of course are always worth it (drone interfacing if you are a drone user, Jump Drive stuff, things like that). Some skills don't show a % on the skill itself, but when you match it to say a ship you want to fly, it becomes very much worth it (BC5 for 10% reduction in laser cap use on a Harby for instance, 10% more drone damage and 7.5% more repping on active tanks).
As others have pointed out, recon and logi skills are almost mandatory to have to 5. Oh, and if you doing Leadership stuff, it might not seem so awesome sometimes when you look at a ganglink that starts at only 2%, but when you factor in 10% per level of Warfare Link Spec and 100% after L2 of the specific gang boost skill (like siege warfare for instance), they make a pretty huge difference, as well as allowing you to use mindlinks which power them up even more.
You really just have to decide on the % boost vs. how long it takes to train, but again, almost every 5% or better per level is worth getting to 5 (for me anyway). Stuff goes here |
Jak Silverheart
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.07.24 04:17:00 -
[12]
I ask myself this, will I make use to bringing this skill to V? If so I train it, if not I don't. Command ship V for my NH I trained. Took forever too, but I trained it to get full bounus from it as its my primary lv4 ship when I need teh cash. It has paid for itself. So has Heavy Missile Spec V, and all the other missile support skills to V. Overkill, by most standards yes. But I like my heavy missiles so to me it was practical to do that to bring out hte full potential of my ship.
Incarna, giving pilots a single room bachelor pad with a mirror and no beer since 6.21.2011 |
Rowan Breez
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Posted - 2011.07.24 09:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hoshi For logistics it's not question of "why level 5?" but "why only level 4?". A lot of people even considers it giving too much bonus making it almost mandatory. Seen good suggestions of changing it to something like give 50% at level 0 and then 5% per level up to 75% at level 5 (so the max doesn't change).
Currently log 5 reduces cap usage by 15% on paper but in practice it is MUCH more. Say you use 100 cap per activation, with log 4 you will use 40 cap, with log 5 25 cap. That's a 37.5% cap usage reduction, or looking at it from the other side a log 4 logistics will need 60% more cap recharge to be stable than a log 5.
The above change would mean the last level "only" reduce it by 16.7%.
That sounds great, but what if you fleet needs armor logi instead of Shield? Or Ewar Falcon instead of Neut Pilgrim? Would that extra cap recharge be really worth the time you trained for it, then?
Doesn't it feels to you like, if you dont train all 4 races T2 cruisers, you wont be involved 100% out there with your character?
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Hoshi
Hedron Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.24 10:27:00 -
[14]
The skill effects both shield and armor logistics the same, so when you train for that Guardian you will still have the same use for it. Of course it won't help if you are in a Falcon but that's the age old argument of specialization vs generalization, most people here will tell you specialization is the way to go. What use is your Falcon skills you spent month to train when you are in you logistics? It goes the same both ways.
Training all races cruisers to 5 on the other hand is a waste of time. You are spending month on training ships you will never have time fly (only one ship at a time remember) and when you do fly them you will just lose them because you have not taken the time to get the support skills (like logistics 5) up. ---------------------------------------- "Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason." |
First Name Last
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Posted - 2011.07.24 11:12:00 -
[15]
Pretty much what Hoshi said.
You can always train up the other races ships after you trained the t2 classes you intend to fly to V. If I pay 150 mill for an uninsurable ship, I want to make sure I get the maximum out of it, besides, lots of them are not really worth flying with the skill at IV, because they perform worse than some T1 alternatives (Paladin @Marauders IV vs Abaddon comes to mind).
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Skarned
Inroads
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Posted - 2011.07.24 18:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Hoshi Training all races cruisers to 5 on the other hand is a waste of time. You are spending month on training ships you will never have time fly (only one ship at a time remember) and when you do fly them you will just lose them because you have not taken the time to get the support skills (like logistics 5) up.
Cross training other races is hugely benficial. It allows you to bring the correct ship for the job, and cross training does not mean you have you fly them at a sub-par level. Once you have the proper support skills for one race, it is trivial to move to another race.
Being able to adapt along with the meta changes in EVE warfare means that you can instantly counter your opponents preffered method of fighting as you move from Vaga to Apoc to AHAC to Drake to Hellcat to Maelstrom. Fast adaptation to those types of changes play a big part in early victories. |
Hoshi
Hedron Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.24 21:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Skarned
Cross training other races is hugely benficial. It allows you to bring the correct ship for the job, and cross training does not mean you have you fly them at a sub-par level. Once you have the proper support skills for one race, it is trivial to move to another race.
Yes but here we are talking doing it before you have trained the support skills. For example getting all 4 race cruise 5 before you train for example Logistics 5.
Once you already have the support skills it's a completely different matter but I still find training all 4 a waste. 2 is more than enough to be nerf safe and have a large enough selection to able to bring something to any fleet. ---------------------------------------- "Memories are meant to fade. They're designed that way for a reason." |
Jak Silverheart
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.07.25 05:52:00 -
[18]
Cross training is very easy and beneficial once you get the support skills down. Lets say I fly caldari, I already have missiles, shields, and possibly hybrids and armor depending on what I fly. So training up gallente which uses the same weapon systems would seem quite easy, especially sub BS ships, its Frig V and Cruiser V and I now have access to a lot more ships assuming I already flew T2. Same thing with minmatar and ammar after that.
With me, I fly caldari and I have pretty much maxed missile and shield skills. After this I will train galente just to use the Ishtar. While doing that I will polish off my drone skills and finish up training hybrids and armor tanking skills. Than I am moving to minmatar since I have all the support skills and will just have to finish my weapon skills for them, than ammar and same thing with them. In the end everything sub BS I should be able to fly relatively soon in comparison to how long it took me to train for the nighthawk and perfecting it.
Incarna, giving pilots a single room bachelor pad with a mirror and no beer since 6.21.2011 |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.26 12:45:00 -
[19]
cross training is indeed an excellent use of time..
your faction ships will thank you |
Drykor
Minmatar Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.07.26 15:23:00 -
[20]
2 out of 3 you mentioned make a lot of sense. Recon V and Logistics V are a class apart as far as getting them to V is concerned. They're just too useful. Also, take note that Logistics V is actually required to fly a triage carrier.
The other ship skills at V sure are good to have if you fly them a lot, but personally I would crosstrain before doing that.
You have to realize though, that character sales are often aimed at people that need an alt that can do a few things really well. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to train your main that way. |
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Ryuce
My Bonnie Lies over the Ocean
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Posted - 2011.07.27 06:01:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Drykor 2 out of 3 you mentioned make a lot of sense. Recon V and Logistics V are a class apart as far as getting them to V is concerned. They're just too useful. Also, take note that Logistics V is actually required to fly a triage carrier.
The other ship skills at V sure are good to have if you fly them a lot, but personally I would crosstrain before doing that.
You have to realize though, that character sales are often aimed at people that need an alt that can do a few things really well. That doesn't mean it's necessarily a good idea to train your main that way.
This.
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Von Kroll
Caldari Kroll's Legion
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Posted - 2011.07.28 14:04:00 -
[22]
Recon V should be considered mandatory if you plan on flying those ships. Look at the Falcon and Rook. They get a 30% bonus to jam strength per level. You're leaving a ton of capability on the table if you only train to Lvl 4. Same with the other Recons.
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Mashie Saldana
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2011.07.29 13:42:00 -
[23]
Just leave them at 4, will make life easier for the rest of us.
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Kasken
Amarr Missions Mining and Mayhem Northern Coalition.
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Posted - 2011.07.30 15:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Rowan Breez Logistics to 5 Recon ships to 5. Assault ships to 5. etc.
I see alote of this on Bazzar forums, and i keep asking my self, " Why to 5 ?" Do people see the difference between lvl 4 and 5 for T2 Cruiser ships that big, that they would spend 1-1,2 mil SP on it? While at same time they could have spend this SP to train T2 Cruisers and T2 Gunnery skills of another race. What is so significant of traning this skills to Level 5?
To be honest, one of these skills to level V probably wont make or break you in a fight. It's the combination of having many to V that gives you a huge advantage. Having the ship skill at V, the gunnery skills at V, and the tanking skills at V, when fighting someone who has them all to only IV, would give you a fairly large advantage if you consider the cumulative effects of all the skills there. So training say HAC's to V, might not win you the fight, but adding several more level V' skills into the mix can easily do so.
Like other posters said, some of the ships need lvl V skills to fit correctly, Recons V being imo one of the most important T2 ships to take to lvl V if you have any intention of flying them.
At this point in my eve career, I take everything to V, atm Im starting to work through all my weapon specs to V, since I am mapped percep / wip and completely maxing my ships.
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