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Gelvina
Temnava Legion TEMNAVA
1
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Posted - 2012.09.21 14:36:00 -
[31] - Quote
Oh one idea might be: high-sec -> only normal ores here low-sec -> can have +5% ores 0.0 and w-space -> can have the +5 and +10% ores. Probably not enough but will make mining veldspar in 0.0 worth more in terms of isk/hour. |
Dain Highwind
State Protectorate Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.09.21 14:51:00 -
[32] - Quote
You can sell 1 can of Veldspar for more isk than a can of Crokite, i think op is right in any of his arguments. |
Katarina Damaro
Helios Alliance C0NVICTED
1
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Posted - 2012.09.21 17:12:00 -
[33] - Quote
Gelvina wrote:-> The correct solution is to either reduce the demand of high-sec minerals or increase the demand of 0.0 minerals. And this means altering the blueprints. Good luck hoping CCP does that considering how happy everybody is bearing in high-sec now.
I agree. 0sec minerals need to be consumed more.
In the last few days, I've compared the current ingame T1 BPO material requirements with the last data dump. CCP HAS increased the material requirements. Nearly none of the manufacturing websites have yet updated to the new material requirements and so I was surprised by it. CCP increased the mat requirements by about 10% for most ship modules and much more for the new, rebalanced frigates. I assume that this trend continues with the announced rebalancing of cruisers and other ships. Especially Tritanium and Pyerite requirements were increased alot.
I assume this increase has been made to balance the increased mineral production caused by the last barge buffs and an influx of new miners and general yield/day. I personally can safely semi-AFK-mine most of these minerals in highsec and buy the other needed 0sec minerals for cheap. So from my point of view, highsec mining got buffed. Is it the intention of CCP to have everyone but a few miners work in highsec? Wouldn't that increase the already large botting problem?
I say we should aim to bring miners to low- and nullsec by making it more lucrative than having a 23/7 mining bot running in highsec. This would increase player interaction and pvp in low- and nullsec by giving miners, pirates and home defense fleets something to do apart from the big blop fleets. |
Cheopis
Cheopis Industries
25
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Katarina Damaro wrote:Gelvina wrote:-> The correct solution is to either reduce the demand of high-sec minerals or increase the demand of 0.0 minerals. And this means altering the blueprints. Good luck hoping CCP does that considering how happy everybody is bearing in high-sec now. I agree. 0sec minerals need to be consumed more. In the last few days, I've compared the current ingame T1 BPO material requirements with the last data dump. CCP HAS increased the material requirements. Nearly none of the manufacturing websites have yet updated to the new material requirements and so I was surprised by it. CCP increased the mat requirements by about 10% for most ship modules and much more for the new, rebalanced frigates. I assume that this trend continues with the announced rebalancing of cruisers and other ships. Especially Tritanium and Pyerite requirements were increased alot. I assume this increase has been made to balance the increased mineral production caused by the last barge buffs and an influx of new miners and general yield/day. I personally can safely semi-AFK-mine most of these minerals in highsec and buy the other needed 0sec minerals for cheap. So from my point of view, highsec mining got buffed. Is it the intention of CCP to have everyone but a few miners work in highsec? Wouldn't that increase the already large botting problem? I say we should aim to bring miners to low- and nullsec by making it more lucrative than having a 23/7 mining bot running in highsec. This would increase player interaction and pvp in low- and nullsec by giving miners, pirates and home defense fleets something to do apart from the big blop fleets.
As I mentioned before, there are many opportunities for income in nullsec that are far superior to highsec. Trade is more hidden, but it's there, and it's potent. Planets. Moons. Manufacturing. If all you are doing is mining, then there's no real difference no matter where you are. If you are doing other things passively, your income in nullsec can go through the roof at the expense of a few minutes a day tending a POS or a few planets. |
TommyT
RichTech Corp Dysengage
0
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Posted - 2012.11.25 19:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Not all hi sec miners are are in it for profit. My small corp has a few POS's in lo sec and we mine ice in hi sec for fuel. Now that ice mining is nerfed we have to spend twice as much time mining. It's almost to the point that's all we doing. almost all lo sec time now is spent fueling and supplying POS's. No time to run around in lo sec. |
Commander Ted
Dookie on the flowah
70
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Posted - 2012.11.25 19:48:00 -
[36] - Quote
I have an idea that would semi nerf high sec mining income but let high sec miners earn more isk than they currently do by taking some extra risk or effort.
My idea is to add lowsec between all four empires and remove all high security paths. I have explained this idea more in detail in a thread that is linked in my signature.
The reason this would somewhat achieve what the OP wants is that ores that are found in the local empire will be more common and for a enormous build up on the local market. If a miner wants to make MORE isk than the current baseline price for ore he can fill a cargo ship and try to cross lowsec or find a high sec- highsec connection to another empire and sell it that way. This means miners can earn more by taking risks or just putting forward a little effort that isn't that risky. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
209
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Posted - 2012.11.25 21:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Katarina Damaro wrote:Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:This is when your post becomes a trolling post. Why? This is my play experience. Not more, not less. Mining IS boring. I do it for the ISK and because I'm new to the game and want to find out what manufacturing is like. Do you mine because it is an inherently fun activity?
Some of us actually don't find it boring at all. I enjoy it, its relaxing. I pvp when I want excitement. Welcome to the sand box, where there are players of all types in game.
As for manufacturing, if you are new, learn in high sec. When you get higher skills and abilities, join a nullsec alliance with a strong mining / manufacturing presence, and have a field day. Mining in nullsec is often safer than it is in high sec anyway (if any non ally pops on local, every one simply puts away their mining / ratting ships and picks up their cheap pvp ships to chase them away).
As for money, ratting in nullsec is FAR superior than anywhere else, and complexes can give damned near insulting amounts of isk. You can then buy all the pvp ships you want.
Wanting your cake and eat it too is no reason to insist that everyone else has to change their game. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
34
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Posted - 2012.11.26 07:19:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dain Highwind wrote:You can sell 1 can of Veldspar for more isk than a can of Crokite, i think op is right in any of his arguments.
thats market trends made by players.
It was also partly the result of what was an already a recentish empire pve nerf by ccp (mostly). They pulled drone mineral loot, so that only miners can pull minerals in in appreciable amounts. I remember the good ole days of drone mineral loot. some of them drone missions were good ore producers. A few of these bad boys and trit for a bc was done. PLus the hgih ends for bonus. Drone missions in fact fed a major part of my indy lines when I did munfacturing as well. Easy missions to run with my mission fits and skill levels for icing on the cake.
Some would say it was to hurt the russians and pets out in drone land as well (RMT cap/super cap production if you followed the rumor mills). But they by and large have been asking for bounty on drones for a while so I being jaded will say this was not a hookup for em. they whined for years and ccp did not care. As a former lover of drone missions and the loot....yeah, this change was directed at us.
With no mission runners pulling in millions of trit jsut like that, the veld miners got some control back in their markets. Hence higher prices for it these days. And they seem to have gotten better at geting noob tards to not mine for slave wages to keep that control better. Way less noob tards not selling trit for peanuts, yeah the market is gonna go higher price. |
Dawn DiDacyria
Hybrid Flare strange tactical and research syndicate
4
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Posted - 2012.11.26 07:31:00 -
[39] - Quote
I enjoy relaxing with a book while keeping an eye on my mining operation so very much agree with Zyella Stormborn's assessment. Of course I prefer doing this in high-sec as it would not really be a relaxing experience anywhere else.
Apart from that statement I would have to say that CCP are trying to work this out. What they can not do is just change it in one swift blow. They have to make minor changes in the background and mostly hope that their projections on the effect of said changes actually leads to what their wanted results are. Thus telling them to nerf/make less profitable anything anywhere in the game simply is not going to have an effect. For all you know CCP are working on it but as always, with the player driven market they can not shove their hands straight in and twiddle and, voil+á, it's done.
SO, having cleared that CCP works in mysterious ways they also rely a lot on us players and on our actions. Sure they want to have people out in null-sec plying their skills and game-time there they certainly do not want ALL payers out there. If they did why have they added things like Factional Warfare, Incursions, Events in Empire Space.
"Why not?" you might ask. Easy, if all players were in null-sec then no one would be mining the lower grade Ores and the mineral ratios would be skewered even more than they are today. The main, and possibly only, reasons that mining in high-sec is as profitable, or even more so, than mining in low and null-sec is because of three vital and important things:
1. It is mainly in High-sec one finds the low-grade Ores yielding Trit, Pyer, Mex, and Nocx. 2. Most players enjoy the sandbox part in null-sec so there are fewer players in High-sec. As such they'd rather mine there and will increase the ratio of available minerals towards the high-end ores. 3. To manufacture things in null-sec, any things, the players, corps, and alliances there have to get their low-end minerals from High-sec.
In effect there's more high-end minerals available than there "should" be, and less low-end minerals available than there "should" be. This leads to an increase in price for the low-end minerals and a drop in price for the high-end minerals. With the game being player driven it is in many cases not even CCP's fault that prices get skewered in the way they have been recently with the minerals, and YET they try to do something about it. Adding low-end mineral yields to some high-end ores was a good call and one such thing. Removing the mineral drops from Drones was also a good call as it took away from the income from all miners, from null through high-sec miners. Only CCP knows if the player driven values of the minerals were under their estimations before they did that. Increasing minerals needed to build ships could be CCP trying to set either the mineral costs more straight or trying to do something down the line that we have yet to fathom, or maybe we do as we can see it setting same tier (tier now being Frig, Cruis, Battle) ships at more equal base costs. I know someone stated looking at the old versus new mineral costs, did you also check the ratio of minerals, not just amounts? If the high-end materials are increased with a higher percentage then that will work to increase their value as well as work to decrease the low-end minerals value.
All in all I don't agree with the OP's sentiment nor solutions. CCP can not just "nerf" something without upsetting a potentially much larger balance problem, and the same goes with simply changing things like mineral costs to build things. For instance increasing or decreasing minerals costs willy-nilly on blueprints will have several fast ramifications:
1. If announced in advance that mineral costs are increased for some blueprints then a whole lot of Corporations WILL build a whole lot of that item at the low cost in minerals it is at before the change. After the change they will start selling these at a very much higher price than they could have before the change. Small corps and individuals do not have this option and the result will be that the larger corps will become even more powerful, separating the "rich and poor" by an even greater factor. 2. If some blueprints were reduced in mineral consumption all the items built from the old costs would suddenly have been very expensive to build and any corp or player looking to sell it later on would have to charge based of the cost of building it THEN or face a loss from the endeavour/investment. Also, considering that corps and players also like to sell at as high of a price as they can, the price for said items would not drop by even a fraction of the changed building cost of the items. That would mean that miners in general would find themselves with a reduced income (not as much minerals being bought) while facing the same prices to buy things for. Inflation basically where the same hours of working the fields wouldn't cover as much as it used to, either forcing them to try to up their prices (leaving mineral prices at an even higher level) or work more hours. That last we all know is difficult for anyone.
On top of that there are a whole bunch of future balance issues and other ramifications from changes like that, most likely things we can't even see until they happen, and then we'd all be blaming something else other than last years changes in blueprint mineral consumptions.
The game is in part about space battles, but not only. If it was there would not be mining or trading or exploring or contracts or couriers or hauling or manufacturing or inventions or... well, I hope you get the point.
My advice to you would be to find a venue where you made enough ISK with a, for you, comfortable effort, create an alt, either with a new account or on your own account, use that to make the ISK you feel you need to pew-pew in null-sec with and have as fun as you can while doing both.
Cheers |
Seranova Farreach
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
26
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Posted - 2012.11.26 07:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Katarina Damaro wrote:
Tl;dr Version: Item production should consume less highsec minerals in order to reduce their worth. Item production should consume much more nullsec minerals to increase their worth. (I see you already started this very cautiously with the new mineral requirements. But you also increased highsec mineral consumption.) Please nerf highsec mining ISK/h so that I have an economic reason to return to the fun part of this game - insecure and exciting non-consensual PvP in nullsec. This is a game about space battles, right?
Flame on, gentlemen.
actually due to lower amounts of the rarer ore it woudl cause prices to rocket and just be YET another cash cow for nullsec fags.
after the massive amounts of macro miners which were banned and the drone poop changes it would have a massive knock on effect on the cost of everything including ships. if you want dangerous mineing fly a solo hulk in W-space or null. use appropreate ship for the job at hand. |
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
908
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Posted - 2012.11.26 08:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
I love how people don't understand that the economy is based on supply and demand.
There are now so many Null miners that the price of their minerals has collapsed. For years Hi-sec suffered from over supply mostly due to the drone regions, whined they did but they got on with it.
Now Null pilots are whining that they have made Null to safe and are able to mine too much.
Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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GizzyBoy
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
21
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Posted - 2012.11.26 09:53:00 -
[42] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:I love how people don't understand that the economy is based on supply and demand. There are now so many Null miners that the price of their minerals has collapsed. For years Hi-sec suffered from over supply mostly due to the drone regions, whined they did but they got on with it. Now Null pilots are whining that they have made Null to safe and are able to mine too much.
Thats not what he said at all, he said he died to much mining in null vrs afk mining forever in hs.
ice mining in null and low is still totally dangerous, perhaps we can get the equiv grav sites for ice? and like the ice actually disappears when its mined out?
what would help null miners achieve better results in the lower end ores would be easier access to close to 100% refinery areas,
This could be by achieved by making refinery upgrades cheaper, or by tieing increases in efficiency over base to the system upgrades
and if it was possible to get 100% refine rate at pos refinery's with some level 5 skills. (after all your already burning tons of fuel to make it happen, and your waiting out a timer).
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Zyella Stormborn
Alpha Strategy In Umbra Mortis
211
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Posted - 2012.11.27 01:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dawn DiDacyria wrote: * A bunch of well written good sense stuff *
The game is in part about space battles, but not only. If it was there would not be mining or trading or exploring or contracts or couriers or hauling or manufacturing or inventions or... well, I hope you get the point.
Great post, and love this line. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
910
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Posted - 2012.11.27 01:36:00 -
[44] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I love how people don't understand that the economy is based on supply and demand. There are now so many Null miners that the price of their minerals has collapsed. For years Hi-sec suffered from over supply mostly due to the drone regions, whined they did but they got on with it. Now Null pilots are whining that they have made Null to safe and are able to mine too much. Thats not what he said at all, he said he died to much mining in null vrs afk mining forever in hs. ice mining in null and low is still totally dangerous, perhaps we can get the equiv grav sites for ice? and like the ice actually disappears when its mined out? what would help null miners achieve better results in the lower end ores would be easier access to close to 100% refinery areas, This could be by achieved by making refinery upgrades cheaper, or by tieing increases in efficiency over base to the system upgrades and if it was possible to get 100% refine rate at pos refinery's with some level 5 skills. (after all your already burning tons of fuel to make it happen, and your waiting out a timer). I was actually referring to this whole thread but in saying that I do believe ALL NPC facilities should have their refining rates nerfed and all player constructed refineries should be increased up so they are possible to do 100% refine.
Player built and owned should always be better than NPC. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
35
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Posted - 2012.11.27 03:30:00 -
[45] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:GizzyBoy wrote:Frying Doom wrote:I love how people don't understand that the economy is based on supply and demand. There are now so many Null miners that the price of their minerals has collapsed. For years Hi-sec suffered from over supply mostly due to the drone regions, whined they did but they got on with it. Now Null pilots are whining that they have made Null to safe and are able to mine too much. Thats not what he said at all, he said he died to much mining in null vrs afk mining forever in hs. ice mining in null and low is still totally dangerous, perhaps we can get the equiv grav sites for ice? and like the ice actually disappears when its mined out? what would help null miners achieve better results in the lower end ores would be easier access to close to 100% refinery areas, This could be by achieved by making refinery upgrades cheaper, or by tieing increases in efficiency over base to the system upgrades and if it was possible to get 100% refine rate at pos refinery's with some level 5 skills. (after all your already burning tons of fuel to make it happen, and your waiting out a timer). I was actually referring to this whole thread but in saying that I do believe ALL NPC facilities should have their refining rates nerfed and all player constructed refineries should be increased up so they are possible to do 100% refine. Player built and owned should always be better than NPC.
its the better refines in NPC space that help foster pvp in null. Blobbers who don't like giving up the refine tax to their corp/alliance sneak into the NPC spaces from time to time for better refines. Gives the squatters in NPC something to do trying to kill them. make blob stations have better refined and they would not leave home as much. I'd rather see the blobbers have to hit up NPC to make the game interesting to make that extra isk. |
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