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Finishline
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Posted - 2011.07.28 09:06:00 -
[1]
Dear CCP,
On behalf of all of the mission runners who like to fly with our own dedicated salvagers, I'd like to request a change to the game mechanics regarding salvaging of wrecks. Before you go "oh no, not another thread on this.", there's more to my question than just a complaint.
I'm not sure if you have previously addressed the logic behind it. I, for one, do not see how ninja salvaging a wreck is any different from ninja looting the cargo hold of a wreck - the perpetrator is still stealing from the wreck owner. I understand that you have "repeatedly stated that Ninja Salvaging is considered an official mini-profession and the game mechanics that allow it are working as-designed." (taken from the wiki page on Ninja Salvagers - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ninja_Salvaging), however I fail to understand how there is any difference?
You were willing to make changes to the game in regards to the controversial learning skills (changes which I strongly disagreed with, but obviously you can't please everyone). Why not look into changing the game mechanics around ninja salvaging? How about something along the lines of, if they're not salvaged within half an hour, they're automatically abandoned? This would give practically everyone some satisfaction. Wreck owners have ample time to salvage. And independant salvagers can still scan down sites and legitimately salvage without receiving the usual insults through local, and hence, make a profit without actually needing to kill the mission rats. And ninja salvagers... well... if their only goal is to annoy the mission runners, then there's still always the option of suicide ganking. Or they can try and come up with something more creative.
I understand that you probably won't agree with this proposal, or any other suggestions that we have - there's some work involved in implementing it to be sure - but I'll hope you'll at least try and answer the question on why ninja salvaging and ninja looting are treated seperately.
Kind regards,
Finishline Radiant Force
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Shroomazon
Death on Sight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.28 09:25:00 -
[2]
Oh no not another thread on this....
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Ifly Uwalk
Caldari Concentrated Evil
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Posted - 2011.07.28 09:57:00 -
[3]
Oh no, not another thread on this.
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Tyburn Stannis
Caldari Xenon Salvage Inc.
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Posted - 2011.07.28 09:58:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Finishline Dear CCP,
On behalf of all of the mission runners who like to fly with our own dedicated salvagers,
I run missions with my alt account salvaging. You do not speak for me.
Besides, if you're somehow losing "your" wrecks to a frigate whilst flying a noctis on a dedicated alt account then you're doing something very very wrong.
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Arand Nersar
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Posted - 2011.07.28 10:00:00 -
[5]
even if you got aggression for salvaging are you going to attack a ship while in you mission boat? if so where do you mission?
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Jak'rat
Agrabah Academy
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Posted - 2011.07.28 10:22:00 -
[6]
Opening a cargo container requires no skills, no equipment. It is instant. It does not require a target lock
Salvaging - or hacking / archaeology - requires a dedicated module and training in a specific skill, and takes a minnimum cycle time on a locked target.
You are not simply opening a box (despite how it may seem in the game graphics), you are extracting data from a computer or circuit boards from a destroyed hull. Exactly the same way that you extract ore from asteroids, and just like asteroids, nobody "owns" wrecks.
And if you think you've got problems now, just imagine the danger you'd be in if just by salvaging people can go flashy to you :P
Jak
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Conrin
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.07.28 10:50:00 -
[7]
Do not like / Do not want.
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Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.07.28 11:30:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Finishline stealing from the wreck owner [...] Wreck owners
I highlighted your mistakes. You do not own that piece of space garbage, it is first come first served.
Seriously though, if you want it so players go red when they salvage the wrecks, please ... please try and push that change through. Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
Haramir Haleths
Caldari Nutella Bande
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Posted - 2011.07.28 11:54:00 -
[9]
You can haz my salvage for free if u want
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Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
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Posted - 2011.07.28 12:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Finishline
I'm not sure if you have previously addressed the logic behind it. I, for one, do not see how ninja salvaging a wreck is any different from ninja looting the cargo hold of a wreck - the perpetrator is still stealing from the wreck owner. I understand that you have "repeatedly stated that Ninja Salvaging is considered an official mini-profession and the game mechanics that allow it are working as-designed."
No, you don't understand. Stop crying over spacegarbage.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.07.28 12:23:00 -
[11]
Regardless of GAME mechanics, the theory behind the whole "loot is owned, salvage is not" seems a bit ******ed...
Can you imagine wrenching a famous ship like the Mary Rose or titanic from the deep (regardless of where they lie), all the while screaming "ITS OK BECAUSE WE AREN'T TAKING ANY OF THE CARGO"
Whats that? You crashed your car? Lemme just get those panels, bumpers and windows brah, but don't worry i won't touch the stereo.
I know, comparing eve to RL is lame etc etc... But the idea that a wreck and it's contents are 2 separate things is ridiculous.
Personally I don't think the wreck OR the loot should be owned, most of the time you're in a deadspace pocket, free to salvage alone for the most part anyway.
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Traffic Warden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.28 12:30:00 -
[12]
This has been addressed many, many times.
CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com
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Valor D'eglise
Gallente Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.07.28 13:07:00 -
[13]
Just don't fly in mission hubs, problem solved. It's been months since I've seen a ninja salvager. And by the way, you will make a lot more money if the Agent is in a System with lower security rating. And yes, there are 0.5 systems with several level 4 agents.
You're welcome.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.07.28 13:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Traffic Warden This has been addressed many, many times.
CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com
None of those explain how loot floating in space is different from salvage floating in space...
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Puss in Boots
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Posted - 2011.07.28 14:32:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Soi Mala
Originally by: Traffic Warden This has been addressed many, many times.
CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com
None of those explain how loot floating in space is different from salvage floating in space...
It sure does, you just can't read.
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Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
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Posted - 2011.07.28 14:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Soi Mala
I know, comparing eve to RL is lame etc etc... But the idea that a wreck and it's contents are 2 separate things is ridiculous.
Then why do you make the comparisson if you know that doing so is lame?
Why must wreck loot and wreck salvage be inextricably linked with regards to owning rights? Because it would mirror rules that regard such things IRL? Well, the rules as they are now are the rules in-game... no one said that they have to mirror RL constructs.
This is EVE, there are many aspects which are contrary to RL norms... EVE even doesn't follow the basic laws of physics *because it doesn't have to* in order to attain gameplay and design goals.
But really, in the end, those who cry over lost salvage are crying over such an vanishingly small percentage of the personal isk-wealth that people can create by themselves in this game. So what if someone else got the 3 tripped power circuits from some wreck you'll undoubtably create hundres more of in the future. So the **** what. Instead, go expand your in-game horizons instead of sobbing over pennies.
/T
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.07.28 15:09:00 -
[17]
So in conclusion -
Salvage is not owned, but loot for some reason IS owned, for no other reason than for funsies.
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.07.28 15:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Finishline Dear CCP,
On behalf of all of the mission runners who like to fly with our own dedicated salvagers, I'd like to request a change to the game mechanics regarding salvaging of wrecks. Before you go "oh no, not another thread on this.", there's more to my question than just a complaint.
I'm not sure if you have previously addressed the logic behind it. I, for one, do not see how ninja salvaging a wreck is any different from ninja looting the cargo hold of a wreck - the perpetrator is still stealing from the wreck owner. I understand that you have "repeatedly stated that Ninja Salvaging is considered an official mini-profession and the game mechanics that allow it are working as-designed." (taken from the wiki page on Ninja Salvagers - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ninja_Salvaging), however I fail to understand how there is any difference?
You were willing to make changes to the game in regards to the controversial learning skills (changes which I strongly disagreed with, but obviously you can't please everyone). Why not look into changing the game mechanics around ninja salvaging? How about something along the lines of, if they're not salvaged within half an hour, they're automatically abandoned? This would give practically everyone some satisfaction. Wreck owners have ample time to salvage. And independant salvagers can still scan down sites and legitimately salvage without receiving the usual insults through local, and hence, make a profit without actually needing to kill the mission rats. And ninja salvagers... well... if their only goal is to annoy the mission runners, then there's still always the option of suicide ganking. Or they can try and come up with something more creative.
I understand that you probably won't agree with this proposal, or any other suggestions that we have - there's some work involved in implementing it to be sure - but I'll hope you'll at least try and answer the question on why ninja salvaging and ninja looting are treated seperately.
Kind regards,
Finishline Radiant Force
If you've read the other threads, you've already seen the answer.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.07.28 15:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Soi Mala
I know, comparing eve to RL is lame etc etc... But the idea that a wreck and it's contents are 2 separate things is ridiculous.
In real life, a wreck and its contents are, legally speaking, two very different things.
The EVE "laws" actually quite closely match RL laws.
:themoreyouknow:
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Traffic Warden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.28 15:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Soi Mala So in conclusion -
Salvage is not owned, but loot for some reason IS owned, for no other reason than for funsies.
Pretty much, yeah. It's a completely arbitrary decision made entirely to provide additional gameplay. EVE is full of such things, and every one you flip around makes the game that little bit less interesting.
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Mo0seluffer
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Posted - 2011.07.28 16:39:00 -
[21]
The funny bits..One cannot tractor a wreck not belonging to them,But ccp says they are not yours to begin with.Let me tractor the wrecks damn you ccp. The wreck doesn't belong to you but the loot does.Then why is there an option for ninja to take the loot,It belongs to me right?
Your leaving allot of wiggle room,Just as with MT.
To the op,Your tears feed me.NOMNOMNOM To ccp, Lemme tractor the damn wrecks that don't belong to anyone.I will leave the loot,I promise.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.07.28 17:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Soi Mala So in conclusion -
Salvage is not owned, but loot for some reason IS owned, for no other reason than for funsies.
Uhh.. nope. If you take my salvage you WILL be flagged for agression. I don't see why I would ever eject it into a can though unless I was running out of cargo space..
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Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
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Posted - 2011.07.28 17:33:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Arand Nersar even if you got aggression for salvaging are you going to attack a ship while in you mission boat? if so where do you mission?
you got the monocle ? You payed to get that crap on your eye ? MWUAHAHAAHAHAH
anyways, you mister OP are missing something very important.
- since the change in standings and payouts, you can run missions with bad quality and still get a good payout so if you hang out in busy system and whine, your an idiot
- those ninja salvagers wants you to insult them. thats one of their main goal...besides ISK so if you reply being ****ed off and shot crap at him (verbally), they win and you lose
- Like most of the people should say: adapt or go play wow/hello kitty online
--------------------------------------------------
Life is pleasant. Death is peaceful. It's the transition that's troublesome.
ISAAC ASIMOV |
Kumq uat
Gallente Guiding Hand Social Club Dystopia Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.28 17:50:00 -
[24]
Please please PLEASE for the love of all that is holy make ninja salvagers flashy red. I will have to figure out how to fit a salvager on to my Loki! --------------------------------------- www.eve-pirate.com original author |
Solstice Project
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Posted - 2011.07.28 18:20:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Traffic Warden This has been addressed many, many times.
CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com
Yes, go ahead ! Make salvagers flashy ! Then finally i have some work to do for the second char-slot, besides hauling stuff.
People are so dumb, it's fantastic.
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Llambda
Space Llama Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.28 18:27:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Llambda on 28/07/2011 18:26:55
Quote: Before you go "oh no, not another thread on this.", there's more to my question than just a complaint.
Why, exactly, do you think your thread is even remotely different from every ninja-salvaging thread that has come before it?
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Maximum Kiely
Caldari Kiely and Son Salvage
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Posted - 2011.07.28 18:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Finishline How about something along the lines of, if they're not salvaged within half an hour, they're automatically abandoned?
Hmm... most the coveted L4 missions for salvaging take longer than that. Especially for noobs who can benefit from salvaging the mission most. So I'm struggling to see the point of this.
I don't do it too mission runners, I tief wrecks from miners in belts occasionally (but leave the loot), NS is what it is, part of "The Game." I don't think they need to change it. Get some corp mates or make some friends in local and have a salvager and a pvp escort follow you if you're that worried about it.
Now based out of Molden Heath! - Contact Maximum Kiely |
Dracoliche
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2011.07.28 19:45:00 -
[28]
I feel like this is a troll thread... Can someone confirm? 8/10 ------------------------------------------------ Inventor of the DracolicheÖ Troll Warning System |
Milan Nantucket
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Posted - 2011.07.28 21:10:00 -
[29]
Since your want to quote RL ships here is some RL salvages: The largest marine salvage operation on record was the raising of 45 of the 52 ships the German High Seas Fleet which was scuttled at Scapa Flow in 1919. Between 1922 and 1939, 5 battlecruisers, 6 battleships, 5 cruisers and numerous destroyers were raised from depths of up to 45 metres, primarily by Cox & Danks Ltd & Metal Industries Ltd, and broken up for scrap.
Salvage law has as a basis that a salvor should be rewarded for risking his life and property to rescue the property of another from peril. Salvage law is in some ways similar to the wartime law of prize, the capture, condemnation and sale of a vessel and its cargo as a spoil of war, insofar as both compensate the salvor/captors for risking life and property.
and
Wreck removal Wreck removal focuses on the removal of hazardous or unsightly wrecks that have little or no salvage value. Because the objectives here are not to save the vessel, the wrecks are usually refloated or removed by the cheapest and most practical method possible. In many cases, hazardous materials must be removed prior to disposing of the wreck. The most common techniques used in wreck removal are cutting the hull into easily handled sections or refloating the vessel and scuttling it in deeper waters.
As for considering the wreck and it's "loot" two separate things:
In May 2007, Odyssey Marine Exploration undertook the Black Swan Project and recovered an estimated $500 million USD in silver and gold coins from a ship wreck in the Atlantic Ocean.[7] However, the wreck & its contents are claimed by the Spanish government, and this is an ongoing legal dispute within United States Federal Courts.
wow... amazing what googles comes up with.
Originally by: Soi Mala Regardless of GAME mechanics, the theory behind the whole "loot is owned, salvage is not" seems a bit ******ed...
Can you imagine wrenching a famous ship like the Mary Rose or titanic from the deep (regardless of where they lie), all the while screaming "ITS OK BECAUSE WE AREN'T TAKING ANY OF THE CARGO"
Whats that? You crashed your car? Lemme just get those panels, bumpers and windows brah, but don't worry i won't touch the stereo.
I know, comparing eve to RL is lame etc etc... But the idea that a wreck and it's contents are 2 separate things is ridiculous.
Personally I don't think the wreck OR the loot should be owned, most of the time you're in a deadspace pocket, free to salvage alone for the most part anyway.
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Jaleala
DucKtape Unlimited SpaceMonkey's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.28 21:32:00 -
[30]
Here is a solution for you, mission in low sec or 0.0 then you can shoot them and they can shoot you. It's a win win.
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