Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 09:47:00 -
[1]
Hello all o/
While I have been running incursions extensively since they were launched into game and would like to think I am a somewhat decent FC (), I often happen to see other fleets and pilots having issues with how their FC is not running things as smoothly (efficiently/safe) as they would like to. Different tactics are applied to different sites with different spawns and again with a different fleet composition introducing a dozen different variables to simply FC vanguard sites which might be a task that at first is hard and seems puzzling for new FC's.
There are however a variety of different channels that have established either an official or unofficial training programs in order to educate (use this term losely) proper FC's for incursions. Even though a ton of guides exist for incursions regarding almost everything you can think of I have yet to see a written guide on this subject.
I have taken some time off my hands to start writing what I could think of and ended up with about 1300 words worth of "Guide - FC incursions" which I still feel is overly insufficient for covering the whole matter.
And now to the point! I was hoping you lot would be able to give a hand in proof-reading/commenting and suggesting new sections and similar for the guide and most likely have your name mentioned in the credits
At the moment I am in Rome on vacation, but will be returning tomorrow so if you are interested then please by all means drop me an evemail ingame and let's get to work.
Cheers!
|
Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:23:00 -
[2]
It would be easier to comment if you linked this guide of yours, you know. ---
|
Sjugar
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:41:00 -
[3]
There is no 1 way to FC incursions.
It's very different if you try to guide some noobs and maybe even some drakes who don't have a clue what they're doing and need to spoon-feed everything or FC-ing a blitz fleet where it's mostly selecting the next site.
|
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:51:00 -
[4]
Sjugar:
That is exactly my point! This is why the guide will be rather extensive to be able to cover almost every possible scenario your fleet can have in incursions, ranging from disconnects, wartargets, kill rights, bugs, competitions and much much more. Heck, I'll even try to interview some pilots that solo incursions by multiboxing for their advice and experiences. Everything from an FC point of view of course.
Abdiel Kavash:
As I might should have added, I am currently on vacation and don't have the "alpha" version of the guide with me, hence I asked you to evemail me if you were to be interested in working with me.
|
Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:55:00 -
[5]
You need to know jokes and also engage the fleet members in convo -I think that's mostly it...
Remember - the only difference between heaven and hell is the company you keep there - I think that applies to the fleets as well :)
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:39:00 -
[6]
1. Make sure logi aren't ******s and a cap-chain works 2. Make rest of fleet highest DPS up to member limit 3. Call primaries based on eve-survival 4. ??????? 5. Disproportionately profit.
I really don't see why you need an 'FC' for PVE content.
In fact, anyone who thinks they are an 'FC' for calling primaries off a web-page is probably worth ignoring. Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:49:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Ammzi on 02/08/2011 14:57:35 Edited by: Ammzi on 02/08/2011 14:54:11 Lady:
To what you are referring to is a "tagger" .... not an FC. What you are describing is what makes the difference of earning 40 m isk/hour doing incursions and 115 million isk/hour.
The difference is that the FC will know what to do and which commands to initiate when a crucial amount of his logistics disconnect from the game, whereas a "tagger" simply will say "EVERYONE WARP OFF".
One crucial point I must highlight is that EVE survival is unbelieveably incorrect in how to do the incursions. To prove it here is a quote of how to do one of the sites ....
"1 x True Power Mobile Headquarters (Make sure to get at least 20 points of warp disruption to stop the mobile HQ warping away. Bumping it so it can't align is also recommended.)"
Source: http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=TruePowerProvisionalHeadquarters
If that does not light any signal warnings in your mind ... you're doing it wrong! If there is any site you are looking to use for incursions then this one is the best:
Linkage
Songbird:
That is one of the reasons we (read: the fleets I tend to run and be in) stream EVE-radio or put on a jukebox for the pilots to request tunes on TeamSpeak3 while running the sites. Effectively having an automatic mute of audio whenever the FC or pilots in the fleet speak. One of the reasons we also encourage people to talk and discuss.
|
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 15:50:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ammzi Lady:
To what you are referring to is a "tagger" .... not an FC. What you are describing is what makes the difference of earning 40 m isk/hour doing incursions and 115 million isk/hour.
The difference is that the FC will know what to do and which commands to initiate when a crucial amount of his logistics disconnect from the game, whereas a "tagger" simply will say "EVERYONE WARP OFF".
Having common sense to shoot scrambling rats, which are provided with a convenient "this rat is warp scrambling" message in your log and icon on your overview does not make you an FC.
You're just the dude warping everyone from gate to gate.
|
Sturmwolke
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:18:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ammzi One crucial point I must highlight is that EVE survival is unbelieveably incorrect in how to do the incursions.
eve-survival is only as accurate as the time of last the update from the contributing posters. If no one bothers to update and correct the incursion contents, then it will remain as so - inaccurate. The same goes for any other sources as knowledge/things change, content maintenance in a *****.
That being said, for any budding incursion FC, I'd recommend against slavishly following any sort of guides, as a rule of thumb. Many guides depend on the author's experience & personal leanings. Their contents may/may not fully reflect accuracy, focus/level of detail, practicality or discussion on things that matter.
Unfortunately, nowadays there's more of tl;dr crowd that uses guides as a quick manual (or none at all), rather than spending time to fully grasp the mechanics behind them. For incursion, this manifests itself in fail fleets and fail ship fittings.
Personal experience counts more, and for that, there is no short-cut. I'd suggest this be made painfully clear at the beginning of your FC guide, with examples (which I'm sure there are a few)
|
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 19:10:00 -
[10]
Mfume and Sturmwolke I can not agree more with you!
Sturmwolke: I will definitely note that down and include it in the introduction section of the guide.
Mfume:
Indeed, indeed. It is much more than that, it is the foresight and ability to keep your head cold and do everything possible in those few seconds to avoid millions if not billions worth of isk loss. Here is a VERY short example/scenario.
You have 2 logis and are midwise through a NMC. Currently at second spawn with the 2 niarjas dead, but remaining 6 tamas when one of your logis in a basilisk pair disconnects. What should/could you do (not necesarily in order)
- Tell everyone to align to a celestial at X speed keeping the whole fleet in a gathered yet not bumping formation. - Find out if there is a cap buddy for the basi and in that case let them set it up. - Tell everyone who is taking damage to overload hardeners. - Tell everyone to throw logistic drones on the logi, but only if the logi can keep up with the DPS on the aggroed pilot. - Make sure the logi is not capping himself out by "overrepping" - Kill all scrambling tamas (I do hope you remembered to kill the schmael on the first wave ...) - If all goes well, the tamas die, 3rd wave spawns and you hit the "warp fleet" (squad/wing whatever) button. - Have all DPS drones out as well to quicken the takedown of points. (can always bookmark a wreck and come back later when you got the logi back or site is done) - If the logi dies, make sure to know he was the only person scrambled and you can warp out in that open window where the tamas warp scramble someone else. - If the second logi reconnects invite to fleet ASAP and run as usual. - VERY important to announce loud and clearly to the person who dc'ed that he disconnected. If it is only a client crash and not a connection issue EVE voice will remain running until the client is closed down. Thereby you can keep talking to your pilot and keep him up to date.
And much much more stuff to be done. All these commands and check points can be done by the FC, fleet members and several at the same time as well. This is one of the major differences between a "tagger" and an experienced FC.
|
|
n00n3r
Caldari Malicious Destruction
|
Posted - 2011.08.02 23:12:00 -
[11]
when you get a chance, eve-mail me a rough draft and i'll offer some advice. _____________________________________________
Interested in Incursions? Check out our recruitment thread here: Link |
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.03 09:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ammzi Mfume and Sturmwolke I can not agree more with you!
Sturmwolke: I will definitely note that down and include it in the introduction section of the guide.
Mfume:
Indeed, indeed. It is much more than that, it is the foresight and ability to keep your head cold and do everything possible in those few seconds to avoid millions if not billions worth of isk loss. Here is a VERY short example/scenario.
You have 2 logis and are midwise through a NMC. Currently at second spawn with the 2 niarjas dead, but remaining 6 tamas when one of your logis in a basilisk pair disconnects. What should/could you do (not necesarily in order)
- Tell everyone to align to a celestial at X speed keeping the whole fleet in a gathered yet not bumping formation. - Find out if there is a cap buddy for the basi and in that case let them set it up. - Tell everyone who is taking damage to overload hardeners. - Tell everyone to throw logistic drones on the logi, but only if the logi can keep up with the DPS on the aggroed pilot. - Make sure the logi is not capping himself out by "overrepping" - Kill all scrambling tamas (I do hope you remembered to kill the schmael on the first wave ...) - If all goes well, the tamas die, 3rd wave spawns and you hit the "warp fleet" (squad/wing whatever) button. - Have all DPS drones out as well to quicken the takedown of points. (can always bookmark a wreck and come back later when you got the logi back or site is done) - If the logi dies, make sure to know he was the only person scrambled and you can warp out in that open window where the tamas warp scramble someone else. - If the second logi reconnects invite to fleet ASAP and run as usual. - VERY important to announce loud and clearly to the person who dc'ed that he disconnected. If it is only a client crash and not a connection issue EVE voice will remain running until the client is closed down. Thereby you can keep talking to your pilot and keep him up to date.
And much much more stuff to be done. All these commands and check points can be done by the FC, fleet members and several at the same time as well. This is one of the major differences between a "tagger" and an experienced FC.
Sounds like you're looking for a babysitter tbh. Overload hardeners when taking excessive damage!?
THANKS FC. YOU SAVED MY BOAT! Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2011.08.03 11:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Sounds like you're looking for a babysitter tbh. Overload hardeners when taking excessive damage!?
THANKS FC. YOU SAVED MY BOAT!
Sounds like you're looking to just troll post tbh. Please enlighten us with your vast experience and knowledge in all things related to Eve?
'General Discussion' and 'Crime and Punishment' sub forums is what you're probably looking for.
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.03 12:24:00 -
[14]
Originally by: DeMichael Crimson
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Sounds like you're looking for a babysitter tbh. Overload hardeners when taking excessive damage!?
THANKS FC. YOU SAVED MY BOAT!
Sounds like you're looking to just troll post tbh. Please enlighten us with your vast experience and knowledge in all things related to Eve?
'General Discussion' and 'Crime and Punishment' sub forums is what you're probably looking for.
I guess I've just been in / led fleets where the most important 'call' the 'FC' needs to make isn't Read guide, receive bacon.
Just go to one of the (highsec) Incursions once in a while, and listen to these self important wannabe ******s (who all use eve voice, lulz) rabble on and on like they're about to go full frontal on C-J6MT ... when infact all they're about to do is lead some carebears on an ISK grind. Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
DeMichael Crimson
Minmatar Republic University
|
Posted - 2011.08.03 12:47:00 -
[15]
All I see is troll posting with a lot of ranting and raving.
Instead of wasting our time, please post your 100% correct information due to your vast experience and knowledge so that we can all benefit.
|
Sjugar
|
Posted - 2011.08.03 13:48:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Sjugar on 03/08/2011 13:48:31 pfff,
I don't really see the difference, good fc in C-6 will give you kills and a bad one will whelp your fleet.
Just like in incursions a good FC will get you 140M/hour and a bad one will get you 30M/hour if he doesn't get your ship killed first.
Whether one is an FC or not is just semantics.
|
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.03 17:09:00 -
[17]
Lady, as you might not have noticed - due to your excessive presence on these forums? - this is the "missions and complexes" subforum and by including comparison to nullsec warfare you are eluding the subject at hand and totally going offtopic. If you could please refrain from this I think we'd all appreciate it.
On the other hand your perception of Incursions seem to be totally spinned into a subjective direction. Keep in mind, (very much please), that Incursions hit constellations regardless of security status of the system and therefore this guide can be used partly in nullsec and lowsec incursions as well. Now if you would, please go slap your pretty little head against the door in your quarters repeatedly. That would make me happy as well.
|
Lady Oxycontin
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 04:34:00 -
[18]
In Lady Go Diveher's defense, Incursions are a carebear cashcow if you have the skills and fitting along with a good group with a sharp FC. As it is now, there's one FC I will fleet with because there's no drama and things move. I almost don't want you to make a guide so I can keep it all to the small group.
Biggest problems with other FC's: -No tagging discipline which can lead to split fire which leads to nothing dying and things taking longer. -Anally retentive(like the FC freaking out over everyone being within 500m of anchor. I understand why, but it gets out of hand.) -The inability to blitz the mining site, this is faster and easier to do than an OTA, but poor planning tends to make it take twice as long as an OTA. -Trying to blitz OTA's with a regular BS fleet and/or not knowing hot to tag an OTA properly. Start the whining over comms for armor repping in 3.2.1.... -NCO's are easy, but people have to know what to kill first
That said I got a really good FC and happily go on the wait list till a spot opens. There's one other but I never see him advertise anymore.
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 09:33:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Lady Oxycontin -Anally retentive
Yeah that pretty much sums up my issue with 'Incursion FCs' in two words.
If the group have half a brain, an FC isn't needed. Thats your caveat. You can argue it any which way you want, 'FCing' a scripted ****ing NPC encounter is babysitting. It just is.
How I do it: * Post on corp forums: "If anyone can be ****ed, park your Incursion ships near Amarr and we'll do the next one"
* 2 or 3 weeks go by, because we really can't be ****ed.
* Eventually decide a ****, it can be given.
* Fly to Vanguard system in Vanguard Blitz fleet.
* Warp into site. Shoot ships in the same order as ever. Tag primaries if anyone can't remember. Rep based on broadcasts.
* Complete and receive bacon.
* Form up at random point
* Warp to ... zzzzzz. ..zzzzzzzzzzzzz... .. ..zzzzzz
* etc
We do I would say .. 90-120m an hour on average. Probably peaking at 150mil if one can give a **** about precise LP conversion. I don't even bother with voice. If your message in fleet chat doesn't include a link to Fukung, then I may kick you.
Anyone who can't follow fleet broadcasts and stay within rep range without being told to constantly should press AlT+SHIFT+Q and uninstall the client.
Unless total newb. In which case, newb guides to general fleety stuff be a good source of information.
I think this has inspired me to go one-man-wardec the Incursion groups again. |
Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 15:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Songbird on 04/08/2011 15:33:53 In any combat situation there needs to be a chain of command, at the very least pointing all the guns in 1 direction and in the situation of emergency so everyone knows what to do.
I don't care if everyone's run a 1000 sites already and can do this with 1 hand while having a beer and getting a BJ. The FC is there so everyone IS on the same page, everyone does what they're supposed to be doing, and goes where they're supposed to be going.
There's been multiple situation when 2-3 logis and 7-8 dps ships X up and fleet still doesn't happen.
FC is the glue that keeps all together - the driving force which makes a difference between hanging out in the station and being out there in the site.
p.s. @lady first of all vanguard fleets are 10-11 men , why would you need to broadcast for reps if everyone is on watch list??? second logi ships have 75 km range - you still need to tell people to stay in range?
|
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 16:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Songbird -- vanguard fleets are 10-11 men , why would you need to broadcast for reps if everyone is on watch list???
Habit, tbh. We *DO NOT RUN LOGI* on the Vanguards as a solo logi is pointless, and a pair is 2 ships that could be supplying 500+ DPS. That significantly shaves off your completion time. The broadcasts allow battleships / HACS to start locking the next target, before your eye would catch the damage hitting the watchlist. Either works .. but whether you just get everyone to watch the watchlists or broadcasts, it's the same end result. You don't need some self important jackass yelping "REPS ON LADY GO DIVEHER!!" on voice.
Quote: -- logi ships have 75 km range, yet you still need to tell people to stay in range, and if your fleet is more dispersed than 75 km what kind of guns do you use?
As per the above, no logi - so setting an anchor and keeping range makes sense. But still, this is ****ing obvious, no? I've been in a pubbie fleet where guardians got out of range .. and it's just ... I don't even know. Sometimes the "rely on the FC" makes less sense as people get ****** on you. It's better for people to have to think. Or they're all people who need to follow my previous ALT+SHIFT+ESC advice. Take your pick, really.
Quote: -- 120 mil an hour means completing the site in 3 mins flat and spending 2 mins getting into the next site
IIRC they're about 8minutes of actually being in the site, but still, you've forgotten to add the LP into the ISK/hr there. You can take new players who hardly supply any DPS and still get about 60-80mil per hour. Vanguards need a nerf.
Quote: and never meeting other fleets
Depending on when in the encounter they are, this can add to your ISK/hr Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:01:00 -
[22]
sorry pretty sure I read you mentioning logis in 1 of your posts.
hmm I never counted the Lp before - I'm really bad at conversion of LP to money.(I've got 1.5mil and not sure what to buy with it which would sell)
I'm pretty sure Ammzi means 120 mil of pure isk income when he's FC'ing(or 3 mins to complete the site and 2 mins to travel - altogether 5 mins between payouts).
BTW if you can expect only 500 dps from 2 extra dps ships maybe you should look into the logi ships variant - I mean an abaddon that can concentrate on DPS alone with implants for damage does close to 1200 gun dps + whatever the 5 drones do.
An abaddon that has to maybe cap chain with another and also lose yet another high to remote rep just doesn't do as much DPS.
And consider the time you waste locking ships you need to rep.
plus you lose all that bonding time when you don't talk with your corpmates...
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:41:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Songbird hmm I never counted the Lp before - I'm really bad at conversion of LP to money.(I've got 1.5mil and not sure what to buy with it which would sell)
Dude. Work it out (!!!) You're going to be pleasantly surprised when you cash in those particular chips
Quote: BTW if you can expect only 500 dps from 2 extra dps ships [..]
Eh I was taking 500 DPS per ship as being a minimum from an RR-BS, assuming my previous comment about low SP tag-alongs. Ideally you want 8000-13000 DPS from your Vanguard fleet, which completes them pretty sharpish.
Quote: An abaddon that has to maybe cap chain with another and also lose yet another high to remote rep just doesn't do as much DPS
There are other ways, but cap-boosters do a fine and dandy job. The rest of the fit is resists / DPS centric. You're just not in the site long enough or repping hard enough to run out. Alt in an inty at the formup point and re-filling takes little to no extra time. Cap chaining / fitting for cap stability is seriously not needed.
Quote: And consider the time you waste locking ships you need to rep
Eh? My guns are firmly on the primary target and pew pewing WHILST I'm locking the next guy to rep
Quote: plus you lose all that bonding time when you don't talk with your corpmates...
Bonding over a righteous gank > bonding over PVE.
IMO you should keep PVE to as AFK as possible (hence not ****ing around with an FC and voice comms) and then have yourself a merry little time on voice when you're roaming for real pew pew. Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
Songbird
Gallente T.I.E. Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 18:17:00 -
[24]
a woman or a troll, can't figure out which one are you. Maybe a combination of the 2. Obstreperousness gave you away. I bet you're also a morning person. Good for you.
|
Lady Go Diveher
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 19:04:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Songbird a woman or a troll
I'm just going to quote this here, to immortalize your shame.
/me shakes head sadly Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 21:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
We do I would say .. 90-120m an hour on average. Probably peaking at 150mil if one can give a **** about precise LP conversion.
I don't know if you have been all along counting with LP in the hourly earnings, but I haven't. The estimate is purely isk based. 110 m isk/hour excluding LP.
|
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 22:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ammzi
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
We do I would say .. 90-120m an hour on average. Probably peaking at 150mil if one can give a **** about precise LP conversion.
I don't know if you have been all along counting with LP in the hourly earnings, but I haven't. The estimate is purely isk based. 110 m isk/hour excluding LP.
Carebear in ISK/hr exaggerations. News at 11. -------
|
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.04 22:47:00 -
[28]
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! God finally now it makes sense to why you are responding the way you are and what the hell you are talking about.
Lady, your arguments are invalid and based purely on your subjective experiences - I will easily pull them all apart if you want to discuss how-to Incursions tactics and show you the weak and strong points about them.
Your fleets are corp-based, 90 % of all other highsec incursion fleets are strangers bounding up in fleets. That is another difference you have to calculate and you very much fail at doing so.
Listen, drop me a convo and let's meet up on eve voice or some teamspeak server so we can discuss these things and I will give you a better view of why this and that.
Secondly - I am not exaggerating, you calling bull**** on this is bull**** as well. I can show you my wallet logs. It is 110 + m ISK/hour without LP if you got the top notch efficiency fleet without major issues and long breaks.
|
Ammzi
|
Posted - 2011.08.05 00:29:00 -
[29]
Lady is an incursion ganker ....
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1561177
|
Jerry Pepridge
|
Posted - 2011.08.05 03:50:00 -
[30]
FC.... High sec.... _________________________________________________
Misty McGinnity Doesn't have an iPhone. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |