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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 7 post(s) |
Kesthely
Fleet of the Damned Happy Endings
10
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Posted - 2012.09.21 19:30:00 -
[61] - Quote
Stop looking at its implementations for a fully maxed out industry character!
This STARTING mining ship isn't ment for accomplished hulk pilots, maxed out gas harvesting pilots or any one that can fly a mining barge! Its ment as a starting ship for industry just like the T1 Frigate is ment to be a starting ship for combat pilots.
The ships it replaces were by FAR less effective. This frigate can even serve as a low skilled ore hauler. Starting characters can easily get enough yield out of this thing till they skill up and are able to buy the mining barges, and after that its still usefull to hold on to for your first adventures as a gas cloud miner.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
205
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Posted - 2012.09.21 19:32:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
- The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
- As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.
Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
206
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Posted - 2012.09.21 19:35:00 -
[63] - Quote
Kesthely wrote:Stop looking at its implementations for a fully maxed out industry character!
This STARTING mining ship isn't ment for accomplished hulk pilots, maxed out gas harvesting pilots or any one that can fly a mining barge! Its ment as a starting ship for industry just like the T1 Frigate is ment to be a starting ship for combat pilots.
The ships it replaces were by FAR less effective. This frigate can even serve as a low skilled ore hauler. Starting characters can easily get enough yield out of this thing till they skill up and are able to buy the mining barges, and after that its still usefull to hold on to for your first adventures as a gas cloud miner.
For gas mining the low skill ship that is better than it is a destroyer at destroyer level 1 that players train day 1 if they aren't a trial acc.
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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
582
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Posted - 2012.09.21 19:43:00 -
[64] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 250 / 125s / 2 This looks good for low-end gas miners and mining lasers but I'm a bit worried about using a pair of Miner IIs. Staggering the lasers might help out, but 90GJ activation will hurt. While I realize this is with base skills, would it hurt to add 10 or 20 to the max amount? Would also help out with warp distance. Nothing Found |
Spugg Galdon
APOCALYPSE LEGION
192
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Posted - 2012.09.21 19:46:00 -
[65] - Quote
Pretty much perfect. Mines a good amount even at low skill. Has a good ore bay that isn't rediculous. Just enough slots to matter. Looks fantastic as a T1 hull. Yes, you know where I'm going with this......
T2 versions of this please. One that specialises in Gas mining that can exceed the current equivalent 5 gas harvesters and one that specialises in something else.
Otherwise. Great work. I will be using a couple of these to suck up the Low Sec gas. We just need more boosters that are useful to create a good booster market. Whatever did happen to that idea anyways?
Also; What is it gonna be called? Can I suggest : Demeter |
Arele
Valar Morghulis. Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.09.21 19:55:00 -
[66] - Quote
Doddy wrote: Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.
The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant.
Mining Frigate will be a rank 2 skill, which is like 10 days to the 'established' players. If that's too high a price, you can continue harvesting gas in bcs, cruisers or destroyers. |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
42
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:01:00 -
[67] - Quote
ORE frig-aggedon?
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
580
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Doddy wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
- The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
- As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.
Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.
cool did not know destroyers had cargo hold of 5k
Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
AlexHalstead
Elite Amarr Navy Academy
0
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:19:00 -
[69] - Quote
Maz3r Rakum wrote:ORE frig-aggedon? Good luck with that, they're the most slippery of the ORE ships with their +2 Warp Strength and a frigate sized align time.
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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
582
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Arele wrote:The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant. It's actually more than relevant for "casual" gas mining. With Gas Mining II and ORE Frigate III (which is, what, half a day of training?) you get the equivalent of 4.3 gas miners with a ****-ton of cargo. Nothing Found |
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Psihius
Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
19
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:29:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:And yes, folks, despite its name, gas is automatically harvested into the Ore hold. Wanted to file a bug report to CCP Tuxford in case it didn't, but he was quite clever and implemented that ahead of time during the mining barge changes Clever girl. I have just one question for ya: does that mean I will be able to put gas into my orca's ore hold too? |
Alx Warlord
Security Task Force
163
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
I got to say that this is much approved!!! the gas mining ship was much needed and it will have a role even among the big barges.
I think that you killed about 40% of the Feature & Ideas recursive suggestions about mining with this!
Now you just need to say that you will work on the POS system like you said in the CSM meeting and all industrial players will enter nirvana state for at last a year!!!
Oh, how I wish that the Winter expansion was tomorrow.... [Discussion] - New POS system ( Construction Block Built - Starbasecraft) <<< Please CCP read this! |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
206
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:40:00 -
[73] - Quote
Arele wrote:Doddy wrote: Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites.
The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant. Mining Frigate will be a rank 2 skill, which is like 10 days to the 'established' players. If that's too high a price, you can continue harvesting gas in bcs, cruisers or destroyers.
So its not a gas mining ship at all, its one that has a useless bonus no one will use. How is that keeping it relevant?
You realise gas harvesting is a rank 1 skill? currently a player can fly a destroyer with maxed gas mining in less than 5 days while to get the SAME effect from the ship actually bonused for it you would have to train ore frig 5 (which hardly anyone will do unless its a prereq for barges which i seriously doubt) AND gas mining 5 which is more like 2 weeks.
Of course the easiest way round that is reducing the req for gas harvester t2 to lvl 4 instead of 5 meaning the miner didn't need to train gas harvesting 5 to be as good, but that may be too "easy mode".
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
207
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:47:00 -
[74] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Arele wrote:The bonus is fine, and the fact it's even on the ship means that CCP realizes that new players will fairly quickly replace it and get into a barge for mining. People need to realize that the gas harvesting bonus is an ancillary benefit of the ship to keep it relevant. It's actually more than relevant for "casual" gas mining. With Gas Mining II and ORE Frigate III (which is, what, half a day of training?) you get the equivalent of 4.6 gas miners with a ****-ton of cargo.
This would be the case of we weren't talking about such quick training skills, gas mining 4 is a half days training as well so really you are gaining 0.6 of a harvester for the 4 more days it would take you to get gas harvesting 5 at which point you are better off using anything with 5 turret slots.
The ore hold on the other hand is great, as is the warp strength bonus so mayb it would be worth it.
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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
582
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Posted - 2012.09.21 20:54:00 -
[75] - Quote
Doddy wrote:The ore hold on the other hand is great, as is the warp strength bonus so mayb it would be worth it. This is why I would choose the frigate over a BC, for instance. ****, look at the align time of this thing... Nothing Found |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
207
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:20:00 -
[76] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Doddy wrote:The ore hold on the other hand is great, as is the warp strength bonus so mayb it would be worth it. This is why I would choose the frigate over a BC, for instance. ****, look at the align time of this thing...
Yeah i am coming round to it. I just don't really like the idea of a bonused hull doing something (harvesting gas) no better than an entirely unrelated hull with no bonuses for it with less sp invested. Its more a finesse thing than an actual practical issue i guess.
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steave435
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
77
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:24:00 -
[77] - Quote
Sun Win wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
- The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
- As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.
So I can continue to fly my Harbinger or Thorax or Moa or whatever with many stabs and 5x Gas Harvester IIs or I can divert my training path to push a Rank 2 skill to 5 to then get the same performance? Bad deal for the industrialists. I was really hoping to switch over to this shiny thing when carebearing in a hole. Edit: On the other hand, that huge ore (gas) hold is appealing. You're missing the point. This is a ship that a new player can be flying a few hours into the game and be pretty effective with (ore frigate a level or 2 since most of the bonus come from the role bonus, and gas cloud harvesting 2 so you can use both harvesters instead of having to get that to 5, and on top of that it's a frigate platform with the great mobility, low price and tiny amount of space required in a SMA/cargobay that comes with that ship size, in addition to a very large ore bay instead of being restricted to a small normal cargo and the built in stab bonus. It fills its role perfectly.
Cpt Gobla wrote:Hrm... seeing as Gas Clouds come in chunks of 10m3 and you can't harvest half-chunks the gas bonus is completely useless on T1 harvesters and only useful on T2 harvesters when maxed.
At lvl 1 it would give 21m3 on a T1 Harvester but you can't harvest 1m3 of gas. So you harvest 2 chunks. At lvl 5 you harvest 25m3 but, again, you only get 2 chunks. Only with a T2 Harvester and ORE Frigate V do you hit 50m3 which translates to one additional chunk gained.
Skill Level <-> Actual yield per T1 Harvester <-> Actual yield per T2 Harvester 1 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 2 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 3 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 4 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 5 <-> 20m3 <-> 50m3 This is a good point however. Maybe make the ship bonus a 5%/level reduction in cycle time and cap use of mining lasers and gas cloud harvesters? A cycle time bonus provides better results then the equivalent per cycle bonus, but even with the cycle time bonus it's only equivalent to 5.33 harvesters/lasers, or equivalent to 5 with the ORE frig skill at 4. At the same time, the cap bonus keeps the revised bonus from hurting the ships cap. It is a specialized ship, so being able to achieve results equivalent to non-specialized ships pretty early on with level 4 ship skill, and slightly outperform it with a yield increase of 6.7% at level 5 seems reasonable to me. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
210
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:25:00 -
[78] - Quote
I am also really happy having just realised the implications for ore thievery |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
582
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:33:00 -
[79] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Yeah i am coming round to it. I just don't really like the idea of a bonused hull doing something (harvesting gas) no better than an entirely unrelated hull with no bonuses for it with less sp invested. Its more a finesse thing than an actual practical issue i guess. tbh, I'd prefer a 7.5% per level bonus to gas mining (5.5 gas miners at ORE Frigate V), but the benefits make up for that right now IMO. Nothing Found |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
2202
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:33:00 -
[80] - Quote
Ytterbium, is the ore hold special on the frig? Because right now, you can't move gas into an ore hold. Are you intending on changing this? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
115
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:34:00 -
[81] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Doddy wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
- The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
- As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.
Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites. cool did not know destroyers had cargo hold of 5k gas takes very little space you know |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
211
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:39:00 -
[82] - Quote
Cartheron Crust wrote:Plenty bads in this thread crying. I have never taken damage from harvesting gas that you make boosters from.
The large 0.0 only sites have a percentage chance with each cycle of emitting a therm smartbomb effect of 1000 damage that hits everything within 5k of the cloud. That can be nasty if you get unlucky and get several damage bursts in a row. Its much worse with multiple ships as each one has a chance of triggering the effect and any mining must be within 1.5k of the cloud. So while you might be able to fit this frig to tank on its own 2 or 3 would die.
Still if you are going to kill the rats defending the site (there alot in the biggest site) and mine it instead of just mining the same gas out of the smaller low sec sites that also spawn in 0.0 and have no damage one assumes you can fit out a couple of moas and a hauler :).
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Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
211
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Posted - 2012.09.21 21:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:Doddy wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
- The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
- As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.
Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites. cool did not know destroyers had cargo hold of 5k
Jetcans ftw.
Still yeah i do on second glance quite like this even if its raw output is no better than a dessie.
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Otashi
The Dark Space Initiative
0
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Posted - 2012.09.21 23:01:00 -
[84] - Quote
Utterly pointless! |
Otashi
The Dark Space Initiative
0
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Posted - 2012.09.21 23:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
If anything you should be focusing on lowering the requirements of the current ships and developing a ship that can gas harvest faster and hold more than a battlecruiser cause honestly it doesn't take long to get into a BC. As for mining I guess its ok if you don't have much of anything for mining skills and ore spaceship command. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
661
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Posted - 2012.09.21 23:18:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cpt Gobla wrote:Hrm... seeing as Gas Clouds come in chunks of 10m3 and you can't harvest half-chunks the gas bonus is completely useless on T1 harvesters and only useful on T2 harvesters when maxed.
At lvl 1 it would give 21m3 on a T1 Harvester but you can't harvest 1m3 of gas. So you harvest 2 chunks. At lvl 5 you harvest 25m3 but, again, you only get 2 chunks. Only with a T2 Harvester and ORE Frigate V do you hit 50m3 which translates to one additional chunk gained.
Skill Level <-> Actual yield per T1 Harvester <-> Actual yield per T2 Harvester 1 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 2 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 3 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 4 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 5 <-> 20m3 <-> 50m3
Not all gas is in 10m3 chunks.
Take Fullerite-C28 for example. It's 2m3 per unit. or C50, at 1m3. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Cpt Gobla
No Bullshit Jokers Wild.
96
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Posted - 2012.09.21 23:28:00 -
[87] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Cpt Gobla wrote:Hrm... seeing as Gas Clouds come in chunks of 10m3 and you can't harvest half-chunks the gas bonus is completely useless on T1 harvesters and only useful on T2 harvesters when maxed.
At lvl 1 it would give 21m3 on a T1 Harvester but you can't harvest 1m3 of gas. So you harvest 2 chunks. At lvl 5 you harvest 25m3 but, again, you only get 2 chunks. Only with a T2 Harvester and ORE Frigate V do you hit 50m3 which translates to one additional chunk gained.
Skill Level <-> Actual yield per T1 Harvester <-> Actual yield per T2 Harvester 1 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 2 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 3 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 4 <-> 20m3 <-> 40m3 5 <-> 20m3 <-> 50m3 Not all gas is in 10m3 chunks. Take Fullerite-C28 for example. It's 2m3 per unit. or C50, at 1m3.
True enough.
But the point still stands that, with the exception of 1m3 gasses for both harvesters and 2m3 gasses for T2 harvesters, there's going to be a lot of skill levels which don't do anything at all when it comes to gas mining. |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
65
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Posted - 2012.09.21 23:35:00 -
[88] - Quote
I reckon there could be a tech 2 version of the ship down the road a little that gets a bigger gas harvesting bonus |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
202
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Posted - 2012.09.22 00:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
Doddy wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- The bonuses multiply, thus its 2*1.25 = 2.5 boost at level 5. Thus the 2 bonused gas harvesters become 5.
- The ship was play tested in low-security gas sites - it's not necessarily made to tank null-security sites as it is an entry level hull.
- As said in the OP, industry tutorials should be changed to give this frigate instead of the old ones.
Bonus needs to be bigger so its not pointless training ore frig 5 to do the job a destroyer or cruiser can do at level 1. 10% instead of 5% would do it, the damage tanking is fine, even in null there are sites that do no damage and it seems reasonable that someone would need a cruiser hull stank for the big sites. Thats fine if you only want to mine gas, and dont mind having a really small cargo bay for the gas.
This ship does more than that though . . . |
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
3
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Posted - 2012.09.22 01:31:00 -
[90] - Quote
I mostly like it, but i think there were some things overlooked in regards to modules and bonuses. The hull itself looks amazing, and i really like the way this is headed, i just feel the following things should be brought to light.
Gas volumes and bonuses issue
Most gases are 10 M3 meaning the per level (not the role bonus which is fine) gas bonus has very limited usefullness till gas harvesting and mining frig are trained to 5. Perhaps a cycle Bonus would be appropriate for the ship, giving it a slight edge over a 5 turret ship if a player takes the time to train the frigate skill to 5, as opposed to making it perfectly equal.
The Miner II module (and its largely unused faction/storyline varients)
These modules have a drastically increased activation cost. and without the - 60% bonus the current mining frigs have it makes those modules very taxing if not impractical to use, especially for newer characters. These modules are almost garuanteed to be fitted however due to needing Mining IV as a prerequisite for astrogeology and therefore mining barge. I don't think there is actually a fitting concern for these modules, and no need to change the ship, just bring the activation costs inline with the other mining lasers and this problem will be mitigated.
Deep Core Mining Lazers
The Deep Core Mining Lazer, and the ORE variant both require far to much CPU to fit on this ship, and with battleship mining no longer a common practice these modules should either be phased out, or reworked for this ship (lower the CPU). It would be nice to be able to have one of these handy if your rorqual pilot is a few units shy of a compression cycle, or for nOObs getting their ninja mine on. The Modulated Deep Core Miner II allso has the potential to see more use in a similar role, for ores other than just Mercoxit. It's fitting parameters are fine, but all three of these modules are steep on activation cost for a frigate sized capacitor. I would recommend reducing that, and additionally increasing the cargo hold by perhaps 25-50 M3 to allow for crystals to be utilized. (they were decreased to 25 M3 volume IIRC)
'Splodeyness
This ship cannot handle gas cloud or mercoxit explosions in any way. Perhaps this will be the purview of a T2 version, but i would still like to see this ship be able to handle those situations because they are a reality for the larger ships as much as the smaller ones. You may as well learn early on. A role bonus similar to the old Skiff may work, or perhaps providing a static damage reduction from these types of explosions would be the way to go here, but i think this is more optional, especially if a more resilient T2 variant is planned.
Deffense and Drones
Although the Bantam does just fine with one drone and significantly lower shield HP, i still think this ship warrents a larger drone bay and bandwidth. As it is the first step to a mining barge, flying it like one makes sense. Its speed, and shield levels are fine given its low sig and the penitent of nOObs to orbit their roids, but i think you should increase tha bandwidth by 5 and the bay by 20 allowing two flights of three drones to be usable. in all likelihood mining drones and combat drones, but ninja miners may opt for ECM drones or something more exotic (spider drone taking nOOb mining fleets anyone? ).
Maybe Some Icing?
Why not give it a Bonus to survey scanners? Not a huge deal, but it would increase its versatility even for older players if you could scout belts with it quickly and efficiently. as it stands, most people don't use the Orca or Rorqual bonuses for it, and i don't think giving a role bonus for them to this ship is going to really break anything. |
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