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Valentina Valentia
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:34:00 -
[1]
Just an interesting thought - since at EVE Vegas the legal guy presented the reason that CCP doesnt want to become a bank because if it started to issue currency in game that has a RL value exchange it would become a bank in some countries legal systems.
Then you have the whole EVe bank and other things being commented on in various RL money magazines - IS ingame currency theft REAL crime or not?
Now we have RM virtual items, but we now that until now at least anything you stold in EVE was "make believe" in most peoples eyes and certainly was under the legal system.
Now... we have these RM ingame items... doesn' this open up for RL issues of exchange and legal actions over ingame crimes? it would seem to do so...
Commentary requested, lets play HARDBALL!... *get Funkybacon in here he sounds just like Chris Mathews*
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Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:38:00 -
[2]
What?
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
Meryl SinGarda
Caldari Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:38:00 -
[3]
It's a game. Fly safe, Die hard |
Monstress
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:39:00 -
[4]
Nothing has changed. NeX items are available on the ISK market so people who really want them and don't have the ISK will buy a PLEX and spend it but the smarter people will spend ISK.
Just like people who buy PLEXes to support their PVP habits, nothing has changed.
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:39:00 -
[5]
Edited by: 0oO0oOoOo0o on 03/08/2011 23:40:23
Originally by: Valentina Valentia
Then you have the whole EVe bank and other things being commented on in various RL money magazines - IS ingame currency theft REAL crime or not?
Yes it is. If you gank my hulk again, I'm going to sue you for robbery and criminal mischief so that you end up many years in prison.
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:42:00 -
[6]
what _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:43:00 -
[7]
in the butt
♫ When your ship gets blown to bits ♫ And you lose your Faction fits \☻/ Don't worry ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ Be Happy \☻/ |
Meryl SinGarda
Caldari Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:45:00 -
[8]
in the what what Fly safe, Die hard |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:48:00 -
[9]
I need less funky and more bacon to explain what op just said. |
Monstress
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Grey Stormshadow I need less funky and more bacon to explain what op just said.
OP is probably on drugs. I don't think bacon will help.
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Valentina Valentia
Now... we have these RM ingame items... doesn' this open up for RL issues of exchange and legal actions over ingame crimes? it would seem to do so...
There are no RM ingame items, so this isnt a problem.
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Olleybear
Minmatar I R' Carebear
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:58:00 -
[12]
*Explosion*
Local Chatter: Pirate: Haha! We violence your boat! Kid: *!&%^$@#*&^#*&^#*&@ and (*(*(* not to mention your moms (*&$(*&$#(%*&$#(*&% Pirate: BAHAHAHAHA!!!
Kid 5 minutes later: Hello? 911? Someone just blew up my boat! 911 Operator: Terror! Fire and Brimestone! We shall bring in the FBI, NSA, DHS! Kid: Yay!
1 month later on the local news seeing 23 year old dragged away in chains: Reporter: Is it true Mr Pirate that you said, and I quote, "We violence your boat", after blowing up kids boats in a video game, after he used his moms crdit card without here knowledge, and utterly destroyed this young genius's business opportunity to "Bring home the bacon" for his family as it were? Pirate: WTF? Its a game! I blew up internet space pixels you (*&$(*!!!
Cop: We now have a confession on tape. Lock him up! Kid: Yay!
1 month later in Eve local: Crickets.... Lots of crickets.... Crickets multiplying like crazy... Eve server crashes as everyone at CCP in jail for making international terrorism on various countries child populations.
Lawyers: Bahahaha!!!
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Sweet Jane Liche
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:59:00 -
[13]
OP cannot afford a monocle and is looking for ANYTHING that he can blame his feelings of inadequacy on
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Valentina Valentia
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.04 00:03:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sweet Jane Liche OP cannot afford a monocle and is looking for ANYTHING that he can blame his feelings of inadequacy on
I am waiting for Aur fake boob implants with size of deathstars... and then I will use monocles as pasties!!!... LOL ______________
Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY. |
Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.08.04 00:06:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 04/08/2011 00:06:15 There can always be some state attorney somewhere that would give it a shot and always a chance a jury would buy it if it got there.
But I'm pretty sure as laws stand most in the US it would get dismissed before it got to trial, even if it involved a local game company and local residents.
It is an evolving area of law and often referenced on this game site
here is one particular instance : http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2011/07/zynga-v-williams.html
other' http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2011/07/join-me-and-ieee-in-la-.html?cid=6a00d8341c022953ef0153905df460970b#comment-6a00d8341c022953ef0153905df460970b
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2011/07/insurance-for-virtual-goods.html
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/07/id_theft_rmt_nc.html
many others
But this from blizzard raises my eyebrows
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/faster-forward/post/diablo-3-auction-house-to-charge-real-money-for-in-game-goods/2011/08/01/gIQAllZTnI_blog.html
(Terra Nova is the type of game site I like.. big picture dynamics of virtual worlds... not like guides and reviews etc.)
The tldr point is that the game item to $ direction is not sanctioned by the entertainment company creating the games.
We know that game assets including the right to play an additional 3 characters for another month.. like a credit for another game on a pinball machine, are subject to entirely subjective and arbitrary rules by developers that relate to their conception of what creates the most entertaining product.
The value of any item is subject to its scarcity and difficulty to aquire, in addition to its game utility. Clearly for purposes of creating evolving entertainment product, things like weapon nerfs, increased drop-rates, creation of better replacements making the orginal practially worthless to use, giving a dozen of the item to every player as a christmas gift etc. are absolutely within the creative venue of a game company.
As such, the notion of 'property' law applying will probably not become the standard.
I'm not so sure though that a law couldn't be written though that does make the stealing of virtual items a crime but still a black market value is unlikely to be used as an open advertisement of the item to willing buyers would give the game company every right to confiscate the item for breaking rules of play important to maintaining their creative license
BUT, their are other sorts of things that might stand up related
Even if property theft isn't a criminal offense, harrassment laws could concievably apply. Where the line there is drawn there may be a much more subjective decision by a court or Jury. There is no question that an adult making sexual advances to minor in a game could be prosecuted in the locality he sat when making the advances. Cyber-bullying laws are making types of stalking and or directed harrasment based on religion etc against local laws. Stealing the items could concieveably be seen as bullying but, it would be a pretty strong defense to say blowing up ships and taking peoples stuff was part of the game and the prosecutor would need to prove that the motive was to focus grief based on some protected area.
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Postrem Inkunen
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Posted - 2011.08.04 00:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Olleybear *Explosion*
Local Chatter: Pirate: Haha! We violence your boat! Kid: *!&%^$@#*&^#*&^#*&@ and (*(*(* not to mention your moms (*&$(*&$#(%*&$#(*&% Pirate: BAHAHAHAHA!!!
Kid 5 minutes later: Hello? 911? Someone just blew up my boat! 911 Operator: Terror! Fire and Brimestone! We shall bring in the FBI, NSA, DHS! Kid: Yay!
1 month later on the local news seeing 23 year old dragged away in chains: Reporter: Is it true Mr Pirate that you said, and I quote, "We violence your boat", after blowing up kids boats in a video game, after he used his moms crdit card without here knowledge, and utterly destroyed this young genius's business opportunity to "Bring home the bacon" for his family as it were? Pirate: WTF? Its a game! I blew up internet space pixels you (*&$(*!!!
Cop: We now have a confession on tape. Lock him up! Kid: Yay!
1 month later in Eve local: Crickets.... Lots of crickets.... Crickets multiplying like crazy... Eve server crashes as everyone at CCP in jail for making international terrorism on various countries child populations.
Lawyers: Bahahaha!!!
This post amuses me regardless of its validity.
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.08.04 00:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Diomedes Calypso on 04/08/2011 00:12:17 a tldr comment:
the "black market" value of a good which can be confiscated and destroyed at will by the entertainment company that created is only that.... the illegal value (illegal due to copyright infringement probably btw..not property laws)
The value of the property on any open market transaction advertised to potential buyers is zero if it will be destroyed for making that very transaction.
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Cors
It's A Trap It's A Trap Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.04 02:28:00 -
[18]
CCP owns everything in game. So folks can't "Steal" from you in the eyes of the law. You have to have ownership for someone to steal from you. You never own anything in EVE, so people can't steal from you. --- microtransaction Noun (economics) A transaction for a very small amount of money. -- I will NOT buy items for real life cash. I pay for 5 accounts. Thats enough. |
Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.04 02:33:00 -
[19]
order post out of
can make I to
said monocle did +1 you
10/2 . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.08.04 02:47:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cors CCP owns everything in game. So folks can't "Steal" from you in the eyes of the law. You have to have ownership for someone to steal from you. You never own anything in EVE, so people can't steal from you.
I agree with the word "steal" . I'm pretty sure though that the "virtual property" could be considered Valuable even if it were not considered real property under the law. If there were an illegal real world act, such as hacking into a private account (and there are laws that recognize that i'm pretty certain) AND while illegally acessing your private account they deleted all your stuff, you could probably sue via a tort action for harm done to you. I would think though, that they wouldn't recognize the illegal black market value BUT you could make a case for some portion of the time you spent aquiring the virtual goods or the time it might take to regain them.
Property in one sense, no, but a tort can recognize all sorts of values.. like right to consortium with your character
Conjugal Rights refer to the mutual rights and privileges between two individuals arising from the state of being married. These rights include mutual rights of companionship, support, sexual relations, affection, joint property rights and the like. Loss of conjugal rights will also amount to loss of consortium. Loss of consortium can refer to decreased or limited sexual activity, diminished care, companionship and / or affection between spouses as the result of a personal injury. Damages can be claimed for loss of consortium. The act of a husband or wife staying separately from the other without any lawful cause is refereed to as
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GM Homonoia
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Posted - 2011.08.04 04:28:00 -
[21]
DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP.
Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules.
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.08.04 04:37:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Simetraz on 04/08/2011 04:37:50
LOL as long as you can't legally convert in game money or items to RL cash, you don't have any RL legal recourse for any action allowed per game rules. And all items created by the game are the property of CCP. The only thing you have is a rental agreement for game time and that is it. And even that is has several conditions under it.
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Tron Flux
Caldari Midnite Madness
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Posted - 2011.08.04 04:44:00 -
[23]
The OP's scenario seems pretty farfetched, but I gues a lot of lawsuits seem pretty farfetched. I'd say that the intervening Plex between the spending of RL money and the conversion to Aur probably prevents this from becoming an issue. You didn't buy an item directly from CCP. You bought a gtc with your money, or more likely bought plex with isk. What happens after that in the transaction probably mitigates even a really bizarre legal stance.
The immediate question might be, "what about stealing people's plex?" could that be construed as a real life crime. Again, I doubt it. CCP never sold you a plex. You bought a game time code. After that it was your choice to convert it into a transactable item.
It gets back to the GMs post above. CCP sells you something totally protected: gtc, after that it's your choice to bring those protected gtc into the magic boxing ring.
Just a guess though. You all know I'm not an attorney.
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Valentina Valentia
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.04 04:51:00 -
[24]
sounds like some intelligent answers came in at the end - hope that works then, my though was some countries may have in place laws that protect "virtual renters" for lack of a better term from being pirated by other person if RM was involved in the transaction of the item above the already stated subscription - because it would be a seperate transaction outside of game time renting... a buff if you would to that cost and for a specific item that was only accessable to that person - constituting "private" property, just as no one else can use your apartment even if it is not yours by ownership and if someone else uses it in some manner they are subject to legal actions.
since the NeX is RM - Aur - to item for a particular account, it may fall into the area of someone illegally using your account if they use that said item w/o permission... not sure how that would work in RW courts but it does seem to have some merit in a complaint should someone make it - or a group of people say with a substantial investment of several hundred or thousand dollars, that could be of interest to someone to pursue.
Gosh law is interesting...
______________
Effete Noir - a wonderful virtual cologne for the discerning Pod-Pilot - 4500 Aur - BUY. |
The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.04 05:37:00 -
[25]
Originally by: GM Homonoia DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP.
Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules.
That, or you could quote the EULA : http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp
Quote: B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
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Tron Flux
Caldari Midnite Madness
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Posted - 2011.08.04 05:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Valentina Valentia
since the NeX is RM - Aur - to item for a particular account, it may fall into the area of someone illegally using your account if they use that said item w/o permission... not sure how that would work in RW courts but it does seem to have some merit in a complaint should someone make it - or a group of people say with a substantial investment of several hundred or thousand dollars, that could be of interest to someone to pursue.
Gosh law is interesting...
If a court in the U.S. is willing to buy the argument that rm=aur=item, you can kiss the game goodbye in this country. The court would have to accept the argument that time=isk=item; therefore it's a crime to blow up your ship.
Like I said, we've all seen or read about some very bizarre torts. But in this case, I can't think of a court nutty enough to go for that line of reasoning. Even if a court were so inclined, every maker of every video game in the world would put money behind the opposition of this precedent. It's a non-starter.
In any case it's irrelevant because the formula you put forth is invalid. Rm=aur=item isn't necessarily true. It may be that rm can be converted to plex converted to aur converted to item, but these are not true equalities. They are 1-way transactions dependent on a conscious act of the gamer who is aware of the potential consequences and losses and the explicit lack of warranty against those losses.
If you take a hundred dollar bill and burn it down to ashes, you can't expect anyone to value the ashes at 100 dollars. It's monetary value has been consumed. You can keep the ashes if you can think of something useful to do with them, but you can't go to the bank and say, "hey. This used to be a hundred bucks. Give me a hundred bucks for these ashes."
That's essentially what happens when you convert real money to plex. The money is consumed and the resulting ashes are only worth anything in the context of, say, a game that revolves around stealing your ashes.
If someone steals your ashes, it's going to be a very short day in court if you're going to try and prove that the thief stole 100 dollars from you, especially if you agreed to a game of stealing ashes from each other . . . which you did when you signed up to play eve.
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Tron Flux
Caldari Midnite Madness
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Posted - 2011.08.04 06:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: The Offerer
Originally by: GM Homonoia DISCLAMER: The following is my personal opinion and does not necessarily constitute the official position of CCP.
Until a court of law decides otherwise, the principle of the "magic circle" applies. Is it allowed to hit someone in the face and break his nose? No, this is forbidden by law. However, in the magic circle of a boxing match this is allowed; those are part of the rules of the game and everyone stepping into the ring should have familiarized themselves with those rules.
That, or you could quote the EULA : http://www.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp
Quote: B. Rights to Certain Content You have no interest in the value of your time spent playing the Game, for example, by the building up of the experience level of your character and the items your character accumulates during your time playing the Game. Your Account, and all attributes of your Account, including all corporations, actions, groups, titles and characters, and all objects, currency and items acquired, developed or delivered by or to characters as a result of play through your Accounts, are the sole and exclusive property of CCP, including any and all copyrights and intellectual property rights in or to any and all of the same, all of which are hereby expressly reserved.
How often do you see eula's challenged in court? Almost never. They are notoriously difficult to enforce. Most software makers don't ever want them to see the light of a courtroom because vast portions of "standard" text would be invalidated in a serious challenge.
Just saying that something is your property and saying that you don't have certain rights is a meaningless scare tactic. One that almost every company on the planet uses to generally good effect.
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mkint
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Posted - 2011.08.04 08:11:00 -
[28]
100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction.
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Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
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Posted - 2011.08.04 08:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: mkint 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction.
Is an itunes gift certificate real money? nope.. just a right to buy limited licenses to listen to music files on a certain devices of Apples discretion ..
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malaire
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Posted - 2011.08.04 08:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: mkint 100 AUR = $0.43. That's is a fixed number, not affected by the game economy. The exchange rate of $ -> AUR is set by CCP. It is a real world currency (the fact that they refuse to exchange the other direction shows exactly how worthless this scam currency really is.) CCP is breaking the law buy not registering as a bank. Anyone who scams for AUR items (boots are worth exactly $4.29) is scamming for a real world currency. CCP not enforcing real world anti-scam laws with AUR items is obstruction.
This would only be true if it would be possible to sell ISK/AUR for real cash. In that case CCP would need to be registered as bank and all kinds of problems would arrise. (If I've understood correctly)
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