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Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
170
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Posted - 2012.09.22 16:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
After all this time, I have not seen anyone decipher these terms, which seem to me to be a cornerstone clue in the Sleeper Mystery. So, I am reopening the discussion, hoping for new insights...
Dropbear posted the following a long time ago;
Quote: Well, Pottsey made an interesting discovery not so long ago, but the depth of what had been discovered still remains lost on you capsuleers. Take a good, long, look at this. It should shed some....light...on what Oruze might mean.
My own research, backed by the above, put me squarely at Nowruz as the containing some of the answer to the question.. Nowruz means New Light. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
307
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Posted - 2012.09.22 18:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
IIRC surface semantics end up being Sun/Solar and Home/House/Hotel.
At one point i did wonder if it might be related to House of the Rising Sun . In the modern version the House is a Brothel in New Orleans. The New World Orleans perhaps? If we take Anoikis on it's "without a home" semantics this does strangly fit together. The song is rendition old Folk song about a Bawdy House in Soho (District of London).
However boyond this It didn't seem to actually lead anywhere (until putting these links together I just noticed this : Solar and Heliospheric Observatory ) but there have been a few other cases where clues have been perhaps inspired by the musical tastes of the devs.
Though in Turkish oru+++¡ means roughly "we hope that" or "in hope of", thought that is a lead I never got chance to investigte futher. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
307
|
Posted - 2012.09.22 18:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Just found these very interesting Original Folk Song Lyrics
There is a house in New Orleans They call the Rising Sun. It's been the ruin of many a poor girl, and me, O God, for one.
If I had listened what Mamma said, I'd 'a' been at home today. Being so young and foolish, poor boy, let a rambler lead me astray.
Go tell my baby sister never do like I have done. To shun that house in New Orleans they call the Rising Sun.
My mother she's a tailor; she sold those new blue jeans. My sweetheart, he's a drunkard, Lord, Lord, drinks down in New Orleans.
The only thing a drunkard needs is a suitcase and a trunk. The only time he's satisfied is when he's on a drunk.
Fills his glasses to the brim, passes them around. Only pleasure he gets out of life is hoboin' from town to town.
One foot is on the platform and the other one on the train. I'm going back to New Orleans to wear that ball and chain.
Going back to New Orleans, my race is almost run. Going back to spend the rest of my days beneath that Rising Sun. |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
173
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Posted - 2012.09.22 18:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nice, Wyke.. That's actually one of the very first songs I learned to play on the guitar..
Semantically, but, Dropbear suggested that it could not be solved purely with semantics.. So while it fits, I have doubts it is the correct "answer". Though I have been wrong before..
And Rising Sun Enclave makes less sense to me than New Light Enclave.. Given the other realities in Anoikis, New Light could be equated as New Intelligences, or New Emergent Lifeforms.. And the Osobnyk the instrument of their creation.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Protocol Inanna
7
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Posted - 2012.09.22 20:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Roga Dracor wrote: Given the definition of an Enclave, both the Oruze and the Sleepers would be foreigners living amidst the Talocan. It also suggests Anoikis is originally the province of the Talocan... If t hey live in a virtual world, then wouldn't their "construct" be their home, and these "enclaves" a representation of themselves in the "waking world"? Doesn't necessarily mean this, however.
Enclave has more than one definition. A secure area within another secure area, for instance. There are multiple "enclaves" within the Mirror site. Secure areas within another secure area.
It's more than just finding the definition, but finding which definition fits the evidence. If the context of the sites is missed, does it really matter what the names mean? "Emergent ideologies" could mean one of many things, and taking the terms themselves may not in and of themselves bring light to the meaning of the whole.
Just something to consider. |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
174
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Posted - 2012.09.22 20:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
Were that there were not individual structures designated enclaves.. The Mirror is a bit different, I admit, but the definition holds to a piece of sovereign territory within a piece of sovereign territory. And there are examples of enclaves within enclaves within enclaves, but, what other definition would you propose.. I admit that I can't find any that dispute the simple definition of a sovereignty in a seperate sovereignty.
A stronghold within a stronghold doesn't match the definition of an enclave unless the strongholds are seperate sovereignties, as well.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Protocol Inanna
7
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Posted - 2012.09.23 01:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Roga, while I enjoy looking at your theories, how does it all tie into Oruze, Osobnyk, or the Sleepers? They're wonderful theories; but they are based on a lot of information that is either superfluous or unrelated to the sites themselves. Names are labels. Are the Talocan directly linked to the ancient Aztec Empire? Don't see how they can be, aside from the label. A label placed by a game developer who, at the time, may have had some loose theories about what would happen to them. Comparing New Eden history to our own is easy; the writers have to use something as a basis, and we've got plenty of history to use. That doesn't mean that every answer lies within mythology.
Why is the Oruze Enclave important?
Why is the Oruze Osobnyk site important?
Will we be able to figure out what the labels mean, or is it pointless to speculate since we can't come to a consensus as to what it means?
There are more easily solved mysteries within W-space, and ones that don't need a Doctorate in Comparative Religion and Linguistics to decipher.
Feel free to continue the speculation; I don't think it's the way forward. I've got a pretty good plan on how to move forward that doesn't really require figuring out the definition of Oruze, nor Osobnyk.
It starts with a simple hypothesis: the Sleepers are Jovians. In a meta-game sense, it's obvious; especially with all the glaringly obvious "These are Jove" revelations in Templar One.
So, game on Roga? |
Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
38
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Posted - 2012.09.23 12:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Not expecting a consensus to form on this, but the easiest solution would be the usage of the terminology to indicate a place.
I'd speculate that:
Oruze - would be "of the light" based on the constant stream of linguisitic reference (thanks!) from the really interested players. Osobnyk - I'd tend towards Bastion.
From the above speculation the deduced meaning of the place name would be:
Bastion of the light
Already in COSMOS there are: Bastion of Blood Lord Bastion
Working from the two existant Bastion's within COSMOS and tying in with all the previous posts, it would appear that you are all correct.
My hypothesis would be that the Sleeper's Construct was developed in such a way as to operate as a Wide Area Network, with the Enclave's as hubs like Dodixie, and the Oruze Osobnyk as the ruling server.
As such the Construct Itself may be housed at the Oruze Osobnyk (acting as the primary hdd) and the Enclaves (acting as slaves) would be redirect points.
The usage of Bastion of Blood, although a term used to demarcate it after its construction, would indicate an "of the flesh" approach to living and Lord Bastion would be its opponent in so far as metaphysical, which I'd translate to "of the ether" for a lay-person term, mainly due to its known symbolism and also as Lord Basad's familial name of Basad was not included in the place name, simply "Stronghold of the Lord".
The rest of the discussion is going to be interesting and I can't wait to read it.
Also - Ruins of Enclave Cohort 27: Cohort is denoted as Grouping with my preference being the statistical use due to the reference to exclusion from results, and the fact that Enclave Cohort 27 was "fit to ruin" or destroyed.
The formation of each building indicate, to me, that of a Data Management structure, whereby the Oruze Osobnyk would be the pre-cursing formula, the Oruze Construct would be the redevelopment of the Construct after analysis in the Enclaves and The Mirror would be its inverse function. Each Enclave in this sense would be a topic of research within the whole.
An example of the methodology would be to have pins in a field of focus and light shining at each pin, from every other point, the shadow in this sense would be the resource allocated to drawing a conclusion for the pin, whilst also being without presence as each source of light would obscure the shadow.
Gestalt Psychology would favour this as each subset of information would be cast over each question. Whilst also keeping each question seperate from the consensus to avoid contamination of the results.
Enclaves would be satellites, Each Oruze would be a "version", the mirror would simply be the place to study oneself in this sense. Or a floating point operation "...and then do this, then this, then this". surprising similarities with the Perrigen Falls region in that respect.
The descriptions of all those areas in the East of the map, pure bliss. |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
174
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 14:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
@ Borascus, like the Dark City filmreference, though, I haven't seen it yet, added to list..
I interpreted Cohort to align more to Cohort Study.. Given it's subject matter and the many clues scattered about, it seems pretty obvious there are two viral infestations floating around. One is biological, the other technological. The Spot, the virus in Ani, the Rogue Drones and the Cohort Enclave, along with a lot of minor nods imply this.
This also implies a conflict between the material Jove and the non corporeal Jove. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
174
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Posted - 2012.09.23 16:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
@Nikilaiki, The Talocan, IMHO, simply directs us to a people(Jove) who had some direct correlations with an ancient Earth Society(Aztec), as a way for us to understand that they sacrificed a portion of their own societies to the gods (Architects) via a priesthood(Enhuadanni) who took over an existing theology and twisted it to imply, that without these measures, Jovian society is doomed. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
174
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Posted - 2012.09.23 18:09:00 -
[11] - Quote
In the above references to the Conformists, the Zoroastrian(Vedic) base seems to have moved toward Zen Bhuddism (metaphor of the planetary name Soekhiviti) which reflects the apparent philosophy of the Jovians.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
39
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Posted - 2012.09.23 21:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Roga did you find anything that offered an explanation of the following:
AD 3805
The Conformists, a group within the Unified Catholic Church, settles on Soekheviti, a planet within the Sol system.
AD 3841
The Conformists take control of Soekheviti
AD 3897
The Conformists lose power and are exiled from Soekheviti
Thats a whole 92 years of setting up a base of operation, governing the whole planet, and being removed. I wonder what the Soekhiviti / Sukhavati comparison relates to within the Sol system (our solar system) and why it took soo long to occupy a planet within it.
Then again I also couldn't deduce to what the Conformists conformed. |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
180
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 23:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
I see the Church of England as the model for the Conformists. Check out;
The Vicar of Bray
Penal Laws of Ireland
To this notion of Conformism is added a militancy I liken to the jihadist extremism of Islam..
Also note there is no sense of Christianity in this model, only the idea of State Conformity of Religion. Nor do I believe the Unified Catholic Church to have been strictly Christian. Somewhere along the line conventional Christian ideas of Messiah must have adapted.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Protocol Inanna
10
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Posted - 2012.09.24 01:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Roga Dracor wrote: @Niki, would love to hear of, or assist in your plan, I live in Anoikis.. I'll send you an evemail in a day or two. I'm working on getting some "plans" up and running. |
Aedeal
Bangarang Inc
26
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Posted - 2012.09.24 02:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
I'll try and dig out notes. I think I remember coming to the conclusion that they were to do with stellar engineering, whatever form of engineering that was. So much depends on what you assign relevance to. For example, how relevant is it that we call them 'Oruze' when 'Oruze' is not an English word, yet everything else is in English? (Oops forgot Osobnyk)
IIRC, check the Mirror for related topics, had a list of stuff in the same facility. |
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
311
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 18:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
I think my New World reference escaped notice. The indigenous people of New Orleans are Native American people. It is settled by the old World French and like all new world colonies could be initially be considered enclaves. It is passed to the old World Spanish. It passes to the USA, is fought over during the American wars of independence and civil war. It is a major trading post for Slaves.
The more I think about it the more New Orleans fits. So what could it mean.
Perhaps :
1) The Talocan didn't migrate to Anoikis from New Eden they were already indigenous to it. 2) Anoikis is the New World for Jove.
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Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
180
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 20:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
The Talocan Cosmos states they they were around when the Eve Gate was open... Not clear on whether they came through the gate, though..
Quote: If it wasn't for the discovery of artifacts from an ancient human civilization dating back to when the EVE Gate was still open, the constellation would still be a desolate, dreary place totally ignored by all but a few bandits. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Romvex
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
40
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Posted - 2012.09.24 22:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Roga Dracor wrote:The Talocan Cosmos states they they were around when the Eve Gate was open... Not clear on whether they came through the gate, though.. Quote: If it wasn't for the discovery of artifacts from an ancient human civilization dating back to when the EVE Gate was still open, the constellation would still be a desolate, dreary place totally ignored by all but a few bandits. do keep in mind that these wild claims about a certain race being in new eden before the gate was found or being native to anoikis would make said races, in essence, aliens... Gÿ+/ /Gûî /n++ \ This is Bob, post him into your forum sig and help him conquer the forums. |
Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
39
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 09:36:00 -
[19] - Quote
Appreciating your comments as always Roga, the Conformist description has meaning now.
Wyke, the New Orleans comparative is plausible, but opens the question as to why the Talocan migration is to the far side of the cluster from the measured location of Anoikis as it would mean that their nomadic long-distance seed ship / caravan travels would stop short in Venal/Tenal (if the galactic disc was at a different point of spin, which opens more questions, like why they needed to be near the Centre of the New Eden star cluster).
Even more questions arise when the disc alignment of New Eden is such that no rotation was apparent at the time of the Talocan existing in Anoikis and New Eden, as they would have passed through the drone regions in their long-haul flight.
Unless ofc the displacement of Anoikis is also in the horizontal plane and they missed (not hard considering the huge distance).
If the Timeline of New Eden is accurate then Roga's Thread "Can we glean present "truths"... here might also stand to gain from the Timeline of events showing the conformists settling and taking control of Soekheviti in 36 years, and being exiled 56 years later.
The part I was hoping had already been discussed from an information seeking point of view is the understood reasoning for why it took 36 years to colonise a planet around Sol, and how control was established if they were original settlers.
Alongside the reason it is 204 years after its discovery in a completely colonised solar system and how the funded excursion lost control and were exiled (considering they had 36 years unabated to colonise and a further 56 years of sunbathing)
Everything else has been a bonus for sure but:
There must be some historical reason for an entire planet being classed as a land of pure bliss, within the current solar system, whilst only taking 36 years of development to become a controlled infrastructure, whilst also being wrested from its government 56 years after that. What happened while the conformists enjoyed the sunshine on Soekheviti? Earth became liberal enough for an invasion?
Timeline Destructor1792's wiki page on Sol |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
181
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Posted - 2012.09.25 11:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Personally, I don't believe anyone was present before the "EveGate" events. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
181
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Posted - 2012.09.25 13:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Romvex wrote: do keep in mind that these wild claims about a certain race being in new eden before the gate was found or being native to anoikis would make said races, in essence, aliens...
No such claim is made on my part.. Their Cosmos clearly states they were a human civilization..
The Jovian story, in some ways, shows some clear parallels to Pinocchio and the Pinocchio Paradox.
Given that I want to show a complete overview of my research, I should add another line of reasoning that I dismissed almost immediately, but, since Wyke is bringing up ethnicity and music, I suppose it could be relevent, given the media and entertainment allusions at the Mirror.. Another possible interpretation of Osobnyk.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
313
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Posted - 2012.09.25 21:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote:The Conformists, a group within the United Church of the Lord, settles on Soekheviti, a planet within the Sol system.
The word Soekheviti could be Sukhavati which is a Sanskit word. However Sukra is the Sanskit word for Venus. In Sanskit Vita means without or free-from.
There is no indication that Conformists were the first or only settlers, I suggest this is name given by it original inhabitants. The same inhabitants that later exile the Conformists.
Quote:do keep in mind that these wild claims about a certain race being in new eden before the gate was found or being native to anoikis would make said races, in essence, aliens...
No, just the Daughters of Eve
Some interest stuff on the subject of casts I, reminded of the Brave New World. Alphas, Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons remind anybody else of haplotypes.
I also think we should look again at Osobnyk from a different angle and not try to find a direct translation.
Dropbear wrote:I suggest you guys think of the name like you would think of say...denim. The "Osobynak" is just a nod to the sorts of etymological quirks, like that, which exist all around us in the real world.
What the hell does that mean? Well, there was this city in Southern France called Nimes, and it was renowned for its textiles. There was one in particular, that became so popular it is still used today (i.e. jeans!). Its full name was "Serge de Nimes" - Serge being taken from the Greek "Serikos", meaning "Silken", and "de" in french meaning "of" or "from" ("The Silk from Nimes"). That name was eventually shortened to "de Nimes" and over time, became the "denim" you and I know.
If languages are just an extension of the living organisms that construct them, then it makes sense that words evolve in this way, along with their "hosts". What it means in this instance though...that's an interesting question.
I take Dropbears hints to mean that Osobnyak is... 1) A contraction, perhaps of several words into one. 2) New Semantics bear little the origin 3) Phonetic
e.g. O so ban yak O Sob any a k Os ob any ak
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Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
181
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Posted - 2012.09.25 23:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Hmmm.... Contradiction alert, the timeline here names it the Unified Catholic Church, which is the older etymology.. What gives?
I do agree about deciphering Osobnyk.. I doubt a direct translation or transliteration is the answer.. One thing I would ask about the alien issue, is how far are you willing to extend the definition of humanity? It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Infomorph Nikilaiki Ruutarhara
Protocol Inanna
11
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Posted - 2012.09.26 08:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
You know, assuming the source of the name Oruze Osobnyk is the same as the source for Anoikis (not saying it is, but it's possible), I'd suggest looking into potential Greek transliterations.
You never know, you might find something interesting.
Like, for instance, Oruze becomes oruza. Oruza, while being "rice" in greek, is also the name of a genus of moth.
Look up the meaning and symbolism of the moth in Hindu culture. You might come across the following phrase:
"If the fire of knowledge has destroyed everything, how does the body of the Sage continue?"
Not that it necessarily means anything... |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
182
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 11:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Very nice! Given the double and triple meanings I have found all over the place, it well could be relevent.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
313
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Posted - 2012.09.26 12:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Wyke Mossari wrote:Quote:The Conformists, a group within the United Church of the Lord, settles on Soekheviti, a planet within the Sol system.( 1) The word Soekheviti could be Sukhavati which is a Sanskit word. Sukra is the Sanskit word for Venus. In Sanskit Vita means without or free-from.
Soek is Afrikaans for search.
Soekhavati (Note a not e) is a surname and leads to The children Soekhavati is a novel by Jostein Gaarder
A couple of Jostein Gaarder other titles look interesting but too little detail to confirm.
Could we have been on the wrong track all along? |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
182
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 13:48:00 -
[27] - Quote
Synchronicity.. Conceptually, it is all relevent..
The soul as a butterfly;
Quote: The Taoist philosopher, Zhuangzi, once had a dream about being a butterfly that flew without care about humanity; however; when he awoke and realized that it was just a dream, he thought to himself, "Was I before a man who dreamt about being a butterfly, or am I now a butterfly who dreams about being a man?" It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
39
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Posted - 2012.09.26 14:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
I doubt that these remarks are too far from the reality within EVE. Simply due to the huge motivations behind the exodus from New Eden to Anoikis all those years ago.
The Present Pieces chronicle quoted in the Yan Jung thread here states that Titan sized components were manufactured 14k years ago.
To put that in context, yes its shortly after the closure of the EVE gate, during the shrouded years. But also of note is that the current Jove Empire is quoted as being formed around 500 years ago. However, the Jovian Motherships were manufactured shortly after the rise of the current third empire.
This would make the Titan sized ship components listed in Present Pieces older than the current Jovian Empire, and more than likely that the components were manufactured in the First Empire.
Also, a tidbit found on wikipedia lists Shapur and Jovian in the same paragraph here and Ardi is extremely relevant to Shapur used as a fully fleshed out Amarrian Family Line |
Roga Dracor
Fury Lords Intergalactic Brotherhood
188
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Posted - 2012.09.26 14:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
It also states that the first piece was acquired in Anoikis, which raises some questions about wormhole mass stability.. But, we have a likely candidate for what was carrying the polestars around.. It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
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Borascus
Red Core Paradigm Shift Alliance
40
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Posted - 2012.09.26 15:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
As well as an anomalous wormhole size in the EVE Gate, and some sizable Black Holes already present in the New Eden cluster. |
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