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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.12 20:14:00 -
[121]
Moronic arguments for removing WTZ.
If you think the universe is *small* try leaving that gate camp and going 5 or 6 regions without touching jump bridges.
Any Changes here are going to be terrible. Can't think of a single variation / option that has any merit to it.
There's only One Zymurgist! |
Shandril silvermoon
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:07:00 -
[122]
It was soo..long and boring to travel around(if you did not have bookmark) when you had to warp at 15km. There is plenty of way to catch people at gate already I do not think that reinstating the 15 km warp in would be a good thing overal.
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Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.08.12 21:16:00 -
[123]
Originally by: LittleTerror The game was fine before warp to 0 in fact it was a better game, no i don't want instas so a ban on bookmarks on the same grid as gate would be good.
You wanna spy on a gate from 250km away then fly the distance...
That is bad. Many bms are on grid 300km. Many bms are on grid 150+ out for various warp in reasons (pounce, bomber runs, etc).
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:23:00 -
[124]
Find it funny people are whining about a suggestion to bring things back the way they were. (nos,stabs,nano,) Seems like a lot of the people arguing for WTZ have never experienced anything else... I am all for it...just eliminate all bookmarks within the grid of the gate...then let the fun begin...again.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:28:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Ildryn Find it funny people are whining about a suggestion to bring things back the way they were. (nos,stabs,nano,) Seems like a lot of the people arguing for WTZ have never experienced anything else... I am all for it...just eliminate all bookmarks within the grid of the gate...then let the fun begin...again.
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.12 22:43:00 -
[126]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 22:29:13
Originally by: Ildryn Find it funny people are whining about a suggestion to bring things back the way they were. (nos,stabs,nano,) Seems like a lot of the people arguing for WTZ have never experienced anything else... I am all for it...just eliminate all bookmarks within the grid of the gate...then let the fun begin...again.
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:09:00 -
[127]
Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 23:11:36
Originally by: Ildryn
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
The irony here is you didnt read what I was replying to.
I also remember just how long it took to get a frieghter anywhere. Of all the things to want back this is one of the worst. The only fans of this are poor pirates who cant even run a gate camp right.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.12 23:38:00 -
[128]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 23:11:36
Originally by: Ildryn
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
The irony here is you didnt read what I was replying to.
I also remember just how long it took to get a frieghter anywhere. Of all the things to want back this is one of the worst. The only fans of this are poor pirates who cant even run a gate camp right.
If you were replying to the bit about deleting the bookmarks then you have my apologies. However being a carebear and a fan of WT15 your last sentence is mute.
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OMGWTFResearch
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Posted - 2011.08.13 06:03:00 -
[129]
There is no reason to remove WTZ because of Fail Pirates. It was introduced before the introduction of interdictor bubbles and heavy interdictors so those you see whining about it are the ones in my opinion who failed to train for those ships and want CCP to give them free ganks again.
CCP This is JUST like the epic whining by the pirates when CONCORD was buffed up. You take away their free ganks and instead of like they love to claim "Adapting" they come on the forum and whine and threaten to quit.
WTZ has been balanced by various warp disruption additions. Fix the bookmark system but keep warp to zero please.
UNSIGNED
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Black Dranzer
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.13 07:00:00 -
[130]
Are you so bad at finding reasons for schadenfreude that you must engineer fantastic scenarios wherein it is handed to you on a silver platter?
Personally I'm in favor of Autopilot WTZ, and I've still not heard a good argument against it.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2011.08.13 07:33:00 -
[131]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
The bookmarks are really nothing other than an (automated) packaged coordinates (I'm guessing). If you can simplify the coordinates into something fairly human readable, then a player can either manually or automatically input numbers/symbols etc. It's just a matter of a straight text copy and paste into let's say a "navigation computer", which itself is more immersive.
The obvious cons to that is that since players are so used to automating things via simple left click bookmarking, it'll be seen as awkward and unwieldy. However, there are probably ways to mitigate that if you think hard enough. Another interesting side effect to putting the coordinates into the hands of the players is those coordinates will be the same for everyone - which may lead to several emerging gameplay options (both cons and pros).
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Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.13 07:44:00 -
[132]
Remove the bookmark system entirely and replace it with a manual coordinate-system.
Personally, I'd really like a system where I had more control over warps.
For instance, instead of warping, pressing ctrl+space, rinse and repeat and then warping to a gate at random range (depending on how much or how little cap is left) to get to a safe point feels silly. Give us the option to select where we warp without having a bookmark, and allow us to have a system to travel between given coordinates (X,Y,Z).
Warping to a certain point in space would then be about inserting the right variables in the navigation computer. And "sharing" those points would simply be putting up a webpage (think IGB) where warpto://1094210,4092596,2332 would take you to our friendly POS. Those links would also give you the option to align to a certain point in said direction.
HABIT
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 08:19:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 13/08/2011 08:24:25
Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Remove the bookmark system entirely and replace it with a manual coordinate-system.
Personally, I'd really like a system where I had more control over warps.
For instance, instead of warping, pressing ctrl+space, rinse and repeat and then warping to a gate at random range (depending on how much or how little cap is left) to get to a safe point feels silly. Give us the option to select where we warp without having a bookmark, and allow us to have a system to travel between given coordinates (X,Y,Z).
Warping to a certain point in space would then be about inserting the right variables in the navigation computer. And "sharing" those points would simply be putting up a webpage (think IGB) where warpto://1094210,4092596,2332 would take you to our friendly POS. Those links would also give you the option to align to a certain point in said direction.
Indeed.
Coordinate system with no accurate warps would be ideal. In fact it opens up some interesting possibilities.
Additional thoughts:
-Perhaps institute a ship class/role ability for transports and freighters to increase warp accuracy (though not to 100% accuracy). So that roles and tasks that rely solely on travel do not needlessly go back to a tedious state... while the rest of the game doesn't need to be overly simplistic just for the sake of travel concerns. Best of both worlds.
-Create unscannable objects (acceleration gates, underground stations, clouds of ponies, whatever) that are only able to be found via coordinates. This opens up some interesting storyline possibilities. Perhaps even a whole new aspect to eve.
-I'd suggest a skill to improve warp accuracy, but that would only introduce a mandatory skill ala learning skills so that idea sucks. But no reason we don't have room for a new module/rig (both?) here. Further touching on my first bullet point of making travel fast if need be (but not without that specialization give/take that should be expected)
Might just be that punch in the arm and kick in the ass Eve needs to become that big huge mysterious new world again.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:13:00 -
[134]
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
4. Buy instabookmark sets on market. Don't be Zippy. |
Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:30:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Hori To
Originally by: LittleTerror At least for lowsec and nullsec, I know you alliance folk in 0.0 hate the idea but how else are pirates meant to disrupt your operations when you can just fly all over with very little risk.
1. prevent bookmarks within 50km of star gates. 2. reinstate 15km warp in 3. laugh like **** at all the nubs that leave the game...
4. Buy instabookmark sets on market.
Are you stupid or just blindly obstinate? I suppose people could try to line up perfect bookmarks with 'warp to 100km'
either way, you ignore the fact that the bookmark system would need to be replaced entirely.
There would not be instabookmark sets to buy, if there could be, ccp would not spend the time to implement a system that would cause the same problems the caused the implementation of warp to zero
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:44:00 -
[136]
Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
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Wa'roun
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.08.13 09:54:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Ildryn
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 12/08/2011 23:11:36
Originally by: Ildryn
I remember having hundreds if not thousands of bookmarks so I could warp to 0 on a gate and the lag it generated.
You must have stopped reading at the first sentence. Try again....try harder.
The irony here is you didnt read what I was replying to.
I also remember just how long it took to get a frieghter anywhere. Of all the things to want back this is one of the worst. The only fans of this are poor pirates who cant even run a gate camp right.
If you were replying to the bit about deleting the bookmarks then you have my apologies. However being a carebear and a fan of WT15 your last sentence is mute.
Unless you mean their last sentence is unable to speak/is silent, the word is moot.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:02:00 -
[138]
Originally by: baltec1 Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
Shall we wipe your bum and make your breakfast for you as well?
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:04:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: baltec1 Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
Shall we wipe your bum and make your breakfast for you as well?
Well at the moment I cannot think of a single good thing that can be gained from removing wtz while my list of problems it would cause is rather big.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:08:00 -
[140]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Originally by: baltec1 Could someone tell me how the removal of wtz will benefit me?
Shall we wipe your bum and make your breakfast for you as well?
Well at the moment I cannot think of a single good thing that can be gained from removing wtz while my list of problems it would cause is rather big.
If you can actually develop that into an argument we won't all simply thing of it as a lack of imagination and thought on your part.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:10:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
If you can actually develop that into an argument we won't all simply thing of it as a lack of imagination and thought on your part.
I dont see how I can make this any more simple for you.
How will getting rid of wtz help me?
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:14:00 -
[142]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
If you can actually develop that into an argument we won't all simply thing of it as a lack of imagination and thought on your part.
I dont see how I can make this any more simple for you.
How will getting rid of wtz help me?
I didn't ask you to clarify your question. I told you to go think for yourself.
I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you can't think for yourself, go back to wow.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:19:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
I didn't ask you to clarify your question. I told you to go think for yourself.
I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you can't think for yourself, go back to wow.
If you cannot argue your point then you have no point to make. I see no benefit in this idea and seeing as you cannot make any argument in favor for it either this idea has no place in game.
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Pr1ncess Alia
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:21:00 -
[144]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
I didn't ask you to clarify your question. I told you to go think for yourself.
I'm not here to spoon feed you. If you can't think for yourself, go back to wow.
If you cannot argue your point then you have no point to make. I see no benefit in this idea and seeing as you cannot make any argument in favor for it either this idea has no place in game.
Try scrolling up to my first comment on this page troll. I talk about benefits to the game.
As to benefits to you, well I wouldn't know what does or doesn't benefit a troll in-game.
--- Players are losing faith and loyalty in CCP due previous expansions not living up to player expectations. The CSM and CCP agreed that expectation management can be improved |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.13 10:44:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
Try scrolling up to my first comment on this page troll. I talk about benefits to the game.
As to benefits to you, well I wouldn't know what does or doesn't benefit a troll in-game.
I read it. Like the idea for scanning things down for pve but not for gate travel in my orca. I already spend 1-2 hours getting around as it is, the last thing I need is to have to scan down gates in every system and then slowboat up to it.
It will also slow down pvp. You wont be able to roam nearly as fast as you can now which will cost you fights. Low sec wont see anymore kills than it gets now because people will not try to ship anything about without the use of something with a jump drive. So I guess you will have more kestrel kills.
There is nothing of benefit in taking away wtz. Only more time to do the things we do now.
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Sentient Blade
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Posted - 2011.08.13 11:27:00 -
[146]
15 KM warp in is an excellent idea.
I can't think of anything more enjoyable than sitting in a battleship slow-boating it to get to each gate at 100m/s because my ultra futuristic space ship apparently can't manage to stop automatically in the same way most new cars can.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.08.13 12:45:00 -
[147]
Originally by: OMGWTFResearch There is no reason to remove WTZ because of Fail Pirates. It was introduced before the introduction of interdictor bubbles and heavy interdictors so those you see whining about it are the ones in my opinion who failed to train for those ships and want CCP to give them free ganks again.
CCP This is JUST like the epic whining by the pirates when CONCORD was buffed up. You take away their free ganks and instead of like they love to claim "Adapting" they come on the forum and whine and threaten to quit.
WTZ has been balanced by various warp disruption additions. Fix the bookmark system but keep warp to zero please.
UNSIGNED
Wow. Do you really believe that? Sorry noob. Interdictors and Dictor bubbles were out long before the removal of wtz. However heavy interdictors were released later. I guess a character from 2008.08.10 15:03 wouldn't know that though.
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Narisa Bithon
Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn
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Posted - 2011.08.13 13:04:00 -
[148]
no
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Russell Casey
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Posted - 2011.08.13 15:17:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Russell Casey on 13/08/2011 15:17:35 Petition to give the OP some friends to gatecamp with. Obviously he has no one to provide sensor-boost/tackle for him.
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.08.13 15:48:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Ceelah Edited by: Ceelah on 12/08/2011 20:42:53 Ok. I guess i missed the OP intent. This isn't about making piwate ganks easier, it's about solo pvp. Since we're entertaining individual requests to change game mechanics in favor of "more solo pvp" here are mine:
1. Undo the nano nerf. I loved Nano-Tar and slinging silver clouds of drone death while orbiting at 6000 kms. This should be done because it was easier to gank everything and hey, I liked sticking my head out the window like a dog and feeling the solar wind in my hair.
2. I want freighters to have 6 low slots and 5 mid slots. If I have to warp my trade alt in at 15k from the gate I should be able to tank it against piwates and fit speed mods if I want to. Give the easy peasy piwates their version of balance, and give me mine.
3. Give me back all of my Gallente drone bandwidth. The only thing better than Nano-tar and clouds of drones was T2 Ogre Myrmidon madness. We want to increase solo pvp, right? Give us back the once upon a time baddest ass battlecruiser and all of the Gallente Drone god goodness I miss.
4. Un-nerf Falcon. That's right. I want the old "tear your damn eyes out" Falcon that would OMGWTFBBQPWN ECM every ship in range and leave them blind and defenseless to my corpies and our roaming bands of mercenary inflicted violent death in space.
5. Death to neut reppers. You so much as pass a tube of Bactine to my wartarget and you should go insta flashy red and suffer the kind of death reserved for pedophiles and people who talk loudly in movies.
Also, I want Nos to work like it used to... sucking the life and soul from my targets while their blood and tears powered my dual armor rep tank. Forget about cap. I should have all of it in my ship, my prey should have none.
See how that works? You want something to help your playstyle, I get to ask for something in return that helps maintain the balance.
OR
We can just move on and accept that pvp is still pvp, and if you don't suck at EVE or you TRY to learn something new, you can still solo kill a bunch of stuff everywhere without a nerf crutch.
NO to 15k warp in on gate.
I was responding to a claim that warp-to-15km discouraged solo play in EVE. I am not advocating a return of warp-to-15km: I am just saying that I liked it better.
BUT, for the sake of argument: you are comparing apples to oranges: warp to zero was not introduced in order to nerf pirates - it was introduced to save the database from the torture players were putting it under. At the time WTZ was introduced, 80% of the data in the database were entries in the bookmark table. CCP didn't want to remove warp-to-15km, but they had to at the time, because they had no means of neutering insta bookmarks besides WTZ.
All of the changes that you mention are balancing changes to prevent EVE from becoming homogenized - not because TQ needed a performance boost (well, except for the first nano-nerf which was breaking the physics engine)
1. The nano-nerf was introduced because EVERYONE was flying nano, and the only counter to a nano was to fly a rapier, and even then they can just disengage.
3. Once again, the myrmidon/Eos nerfs were because the Eos was a better gank boat than the Astarte, and the myrmidon dealt more damage than most battleships, in a battlecruiser hull.
4. Same as the nano-nerf: everyone was flying falcon. Of course, I would have preferred if CCP had given ECCM a combat advantage, just like every other ew-counter.
5. There are many people who would agree with you here, and CCP is considering such a change.
6. NOS-nerf was introduced because nobody was using neuts. IMO, though, NOS-nerf was heavy handed, as very few people fit NOS now.
7. You are saying you get to select 6 playstyle changes for every 1 playstyle that you dislike, which hardly makes for a strong argument.
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Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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