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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
4
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Posted - 2012.09.22 23:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have long felt that EVE needed more game in it's game. The AI changes are much needed and long in coming... but in giving the NPC's aggro mechanics we also need the ability to deal with that, or else these changes will only harm groups attempting the PvE content. For myself, this mostly deals with missions, though there are other areas where these changes will have a harmful effect as well if some new tools for dealing with the new AI aren't provided.
Most games, that shall not be named, deal with aggro by the rather klunky mechanic of giving tanking characters the ability to taunt NPC's into attacking them and ignoring the squishier members of the group. I don't really think that's appropriate for EVE, though I suppose some kind of Ewar could have the effect of transfering target locks onto the the tanking ship.
The solution I propose is to allow larger ships to use their size to defend smaller ships. While attempting to use collision detection to allow shots to impact on the environment or a big ship between you and your enemy would be awesome, it's also apparently very hard to do and is simply not feasable. As a work around, I suggest using comparative signiture size and proximity to larger ships in your fleet to provide defense to smaller ships.
For instance, you enter a mission with a couple of frigates and a battleship. The battleship is primarily set up for defense, having heavy sheilds or armor, and capable of handling the damage coming from the NPC's. The Frigates are set up mostly for damage and speed. So long as the frigates stay near the battleship, the majority of damage coming at them is instead passed to the battleship, in essence they are hiding in it's signature giving them a chance to recieve reps or use a local rep, then darting out from the battleship to engage targets when healthy. A cruiser would get less of this benefit, as it's own signature is larger.
This would allow mixed fleets to escort and compliment eachother, while still allowing a variety of fits instead of everyone in a mission having to come in with a battleship capable of tanking the room if needed. It also puts things like target painters in a new light, as they would allow smaller ships to be painted out of the shadow of a larger ship, or provide an ad hoc defense by painting your own anchoring ship. The trade off is that to recieve the benefit smaller ships lose their advantage in mobility by being forced to match pace with the larger ships.
Ideally this concept would come with modules to aid it, like a Hull Upgrade "Stealth Coatings" low slot that reduces signature, or a mid slot "White Noise Generator" that bloats a ships signature to increase the range and effect of the anchoring ship. |
Alx Warlord
Security Task Force
163
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Posted - 2012.09.23 00:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
You suggest a module that would break the lock on nearby ships and move it to the BS? A script for the new target breaker? [Discussion] - New POS system ( Construction Block Built - Starbasecraft) <<< Please CCP read this! |
Dcna
Nehalem Inc.
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 00:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hello,
I like this idea. It would give some tactical advantage for bringing a larger ship to "soak" the damage the smaller ships might receive, giving a decent fighting chance.
There are a few things that I have concern with:
1) Large fleet fights. Bringing in a Brick Titan with Armor HACs staying close to pick off closer targets will make it a very quick way for a stalemate, or very long battles. Logi staying close to a cap has the tank of the cap with the repping of all the logi there, which very well might be very bad. Might bring back some sniper fleets with having the defense of a cap while closer range tankier ships moving in to hold targets.
2) A BS with the new t1 logi close to it might be far harder to kill than originally intended. Especially for small gangs or wolf packs.
As a slight tweak, it might be good to slightly change your proposal to: Ships of the same size or smaller than the ship being protected will not have full protection, or any. This way smaller ships can still pose a threat and make it less overpowered(?) for pvp. |
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
405
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 01:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hey look, a post that's like a combination of previous bad ideas. |
Jett0
Surface Warfare Tribal Band
281
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 03:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
The "shield" concept is kind of interesting... but...
I intend to counter better AI with better I. Occasionally plays sober |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 03:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Alx Warlord wrote:You suggest a module that would break the lock on nearby ships and move it to the BS? A script for the new target breaker?
Not really, no. This would pretty much be taunt as it exists in other games.
Dcna wrote:As a slight tweak, it might be good to slightly change your proposal to: Ships of the same size or smaller than the ship being protected will not have full protection, or any. This way smaller ships can still pose a threat and make it less overpowered(?) for pvp.
The idea is that only ships smaller than your anchoring ship get any bonus at all, and that reletive to the size of their signatures. 2 ships of the same size would be the same as today, and a cruiser would have to stay pretty close. Actual numbers on such things would have to be hammered out by people better at math than I.
I'll admit to having no real experiance with anything bigger than a carrier, so how titans get deployed with their escorts isn't something I'm familiar with. At a first instinct, I'd think capping the protection such that cruisers and such could be picked out by a few target painters seems best. Depending on how complex the idea would become in development such things as sensor strength of the attacking ship could be incorporated too, so that sensor boosters and such also become a part of the strategy.
The same would be true of the BS with LogiFrig support. Paint the frig and kill it first. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 03:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jett0 wrote:The "shield" concept is kind of interesting... but...
I intend to counter better AI with better I.
Indeed... But without tools to do so, what exactly is your plan when you enter a mission with a couple of newbie buddies who are still rattling around in their poorly fit frigs and the swarm of elite frigs targets them?
I'd like the option of doing something other than telling them to stay out of the mission until the frigates and cruisers are dead, because there isn't a second option due to their skills and experiance. |
Eckyy
EVE University Ivy League
18
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Posted - 2012.09.23 04:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
I was under the impression that CCP's mechanics will be fine. A level 4 has a fair mix of battleships, cruisers, and frigates. If you bring a frig friend with you into a mission, the battleships will attack you, and the frigs will attack him. I assume cruisers will defer upward if there are no cruisers in the pocket.
What's the problem? A frigate can't fight a handful of frigates? |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 06:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
If we are sticking to easier stuff, like level 3's maybe.
Think about the sheer number of frigates in some level 4 missions, and imagine taking a poorly fit t1 frigate in there, because you are a character barely out of a trial.
The way things are now, all of the frigates, and some of the cruisers will aggro your Lolship buddy. A propper ship and fitting for surviving L4 frigates and a cruiser or 3 isn't an option. His only option, assuming hes not tackled, is to warp out and stay gone until all the frigates and cruisers are dead, and then hope a bored BS doesn't decide to target him for giggles.
Some missoins will be fine, but the bigger ones like Blockade have eaten them a couple of times with current aggro mechanics. That was kind of funny though, he was in a destroyer when a wave of Battlecruisers warped in right on top of him. He didn't have time to say 'oh crap'. But I digress.
It's possible by winter my friends will have skilled up sufficiently that they can properly fit tanks enough on their ships to deal with what we do. They are trying new things, training useless for combat skills like mining and industry, and generally being noobs. I'd hate to have to fit them into a cookie cutter mold because the new AI has limited that playstyle, and anyone who wants to come in and join their buddies for PvE has to play in a certain fashion because the tools are not there to allow them to explore and find their own niche in the game.
The changes they propose end any thought of specializing in small scale pve fleet operations. Everyone will have to have both tank and gank, because there is nothing to allow for the control of incoming damage.
I'm all for putting some AI on rats to make them behave like something more complicated than shiny darts thrown at my ship... but if they are adding in aggro mechanics, then we need tools to deal with the aggro mechanics too. EVE has nothing like that because its never needed it, and now it will. |
Mars Theran
Estel Arador Corp Services
295
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 07:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I have long felt that EVE needed more game in it's game. The AI changes are much needed and long in coming... but in giving the NPC's aggro mechanics we also need the ability to deal with that, or else these changes will only harm groups attempting the PvE content. For myself, this mostly deals with missions, though there are other areas where these changes will have a harmful effect as well if some new tools for dealing with the new AI aren't provided.
Most games, that shall not be named, deal with aggro by the rather klunky mechanic of giving tanking characters the ability to taunt NPC's into attacking them and ignoring the squishier members of the group. I don't really think that's appropriate for EVE, though I suppose some kind of Ewar could have the effect of transfering target locks onto the the tanking ship.
The solution I propose is to allow larger ships to use their size to defend smaller ships. While attempting to use collision detection to allow shots to impact on the environment or a big ship between you and your enemy would be awesome, it's also apparently very hard to do and is simply not feasable. As a work around, I suggest using comparative signiture size and proximity to larger ships in your fleet to provide defense to smaller ships.
For instance, you enter a mission with a couple of frigates and a battleship. The battleship is primarily set up for defense, having heavy sheilds or armor, and capable of handling the damage coming from the NPC's. The Frigates are set up mostly for damage and speed. So long as the frigates stay near the battleship, the majority of damage coming at them is instead passed to the battleship, in essence they are hiding in it's signature giving them a chance to recieve reps or use a local rep, then darting out from the battleship to engage targets when healthy. A cruiser would get less of this benefit, as it's own signature is larger.
This would allow mixed fleets to escort and compliment eachother, while still allowing a variety of fits instead of everyone in a mission having to come in with a battleship capable of tanking the room if needed. It also puts things like target painters in a new light, as they would allow smaller ships to be painted out of the shadow of a larger ship, or provide an ad hoc defense by painting your own anchoring ship. The trade off is that to recieve the benefit smaller ships lose their advantage in mobility by being forced to match pace with the larger ships.
Ideally this concept would come with modules to aid it, like a Hull Upgrade "Stealth Coatings" low slot that reduces signature, or a mid slot "White Noise Generator" that bloats a ships signature to increase the range and effect of the anchoring ship.
Excuse me for being blunt, but you already have a tool for dealing with it; it's called your brain. What do you think people do with real challenges that have been using similar AI since inception, like Sleepers? Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
21
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Posted - 2012.09.23 09:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Some missoins will be fine, but the bigger ones like Blockade have eaten them a couple of times with current aggro mechanics. That was kind of funny though, he was in a destroyer when a wave of Battlecruisers warped in right on top of him. He didn't have time to say 'oh crap'. But I digress..
blockade had a counter in place....it was called faster ship hauling ass to targets under the sensor damp effect and killing ships. Blockade in point of fact is a mission that caters to hac/t3 usage, they eat it up. I got record times in tengu and even cerb on this mission over a rattler/cnr. Key is to when you see this, and not an hml tengu/cerb, spec for SR and prop mod the ship. SR because you will be damped to SR ranges regardless, why have LR weapons with tracking issues and/or less dps as tradeoff for the "sniping" you can't do anyway.
Dessie got popped becasue it was not moving. I do lv's 3 in AF''s when bored and want a thrill. Jags and wolves in fact, no drones. AC spec as well, I like up close and personal. The secret I will share for free is real simple.....never eva stop moving. Unless I missed it, there is no combat skill boost with this. Means rats will still not hit speed/sig tanking ships any better post change. Speed is life....the tl;dr.
Second piece of advice....avoid autoorbit in blockade. What also could have happened to your friend is he hit autorobit and the lovely AI had him do a complete 180 to basically slam the brakes. that gets you popped too. Manual orbit, and the pilot chooses just how he flies after last target dies.
Bringing noobs to power grind lp and isk, they will need to bring their A game with them. Why this AI is going into affect. For years the min/maxers have been stacking the deck with the aggro getting tanky "bait" ships then roll in anothter account or friend drops in with the dps monster spec (read no tank) ship. this change has been asked for for years bro, we are getting it finally. And CCP is not giving any reprieves from it.
Well, train HML based t3 (loki and lego do it as well, not saying you have to go tengu) avoids the issue and technically a reprieve. But hml is getting a damage nerf so pick your poison here. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 16:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Or...
I can just do it by myself. I should not have to train for t3 this winter to do what I'm doing now, and newbies sure as hell aren't going to be coming to my missions in anything resembling a t3. My playstyle has nothing to do with farming massive amounts of ISK in the shortest amount of time. It has to do with watching pretty laser shows and flying cool spaceships with my friends. I don't mind having to go at a slower pace, I just don't want to have stop completely because the tools are simply not in place to deal with aggro mechanics. It doesn't have to be risk free, I just want a way to manage that risk to acceptable levels given the abilities of my friends that are brand new to the game.
He got popped because he's less than a month old and a wave warped in on him. He can barely fit guns on that dessie, and he sure as hell isn't going to know how to fly yet. I advised him not to even get a dessie yet, but it was new and shiny. None of his core fitting skills are above 3, and he's not even injected weapons upgrades yet. He didn't even finish the tutorial, he would rather come out and have fun with me. This IS a valid playstyle choice, at least for now.
The point is that when I take a younger pilot with me, I should be able to help him---right now there is nothing I can do but advise and watch him explode. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
42
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 16:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eckyy wrote:What's the problem? A frigate can't fight a handful of frigates?
I'm pretty sure a Lv1 Mission Frigate is not the same as a L4 Mission Frigate. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
367
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 17:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:The point is that when I take a younger pilot with me, I should be able to help him---right now there is nothing I can do but advise and watch him explode.
Remote repair him. The tools already exist. The problem isn't new AI, it's your I. |
Aiifa
My Little Pony - Friendship Force
47
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 17:10:00 -
[15] - Quote
There is no new AI.
It's just the sleeper AI, tweaked for regular rats. Made even easier than the incursion AI, I should think.
I shall never fit for pve again. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
5
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 17:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
I do remote rep.
We are not talking about pvp buffer fit frigs here, though he did strap on some plates for a while because he refused to buy stuff off the market when he was getting mod drops off stuff in his own missions.
But if we are talking about some of the bigger L4 missions, I'll have enough cap to run my tank, but not his, at least not under non-funny amounts of incoming damage.... like say a newb ship vs. 5 elite frigates and a couple of cruisers.
I'm not talking about taking experianced, skilled pilots with me. A group like that will tear the improved AI a few new orifiaces. I'm talking about taking new pilots that are still getting used to double clicking in space to steer their ships, still have to fit reactor controls to get a full rack of medium guns on a dessie with an afterburner.
I'm suggesting that tools be put in place to foster teamwork, rather than everyone be forced to come in ships capable of doing it all. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
367
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 17:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:I'm suggesting that tools be put in place to foster teamwork, rather than everyone be forced to come in ships capable of doing it all.
How about a series of modules that improve the tank of all gang members? One set for armour, another for shield. Maybe another for sig radius? These modules could be fitted on a particular ship class, maybe BC hulls. We could even make them boost the RR mods that you can't be bothered to use. Of course, you still might have to bring the BC to the mission, unless of course their was some magical way of making these modules transcend grids. |
tankus2
The Peace Keepers
58
|
Posted - 2012.09.23 18:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
how about we wait for the AI changes to actually hit and see what happens. THEN we can theorycraft new stuff as needed, if needed. Where the science gets done |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
65
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Posted - 2012.09.24 01:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Something you're not taking into account is that in future, the style of npc combat will be similar to pvp combat, with far less targets in missions to deal with. Your proposal has no impact on pvp mechanics, since players can target whoever they wish, so it should have no bearing in pve either. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
8
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 02:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I'm suggesting that tools be put in place to foster teamwork, rather than everyone be forced to come in ships capable of doing it all. How about a series of modules that improve the tank of all gang members? One set for armour, another for shield. Maybe another for sig radius? These modules could be fitted on a particular ship class, maybe BC hulls. We could even make them boost the RR mods that you can't be bothered to use. Of course, you still might have to bring the BC to the mission, unless of course their was some magical way of making these modules transcend grids.
You are right! Why didn't I think of that...
Oh wait. Maybe these should also require multiple skills at 5 to use! That way the newbies can jump right in there with them! Or I guess I could train them myself, I mean, I do have BC skill to 5 already so getting leadership isn't that big a deal... except that when they enter cruisers we are now almost the same size and get equal aggro from everything. I'll be fine because I know how to deal with it, but they will lose a ship every couple of missions and quit because losing all the damn time just isn't fun.
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
8
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Posted - 2012.09.24 02:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Galphii wrote:Something you're not taking into account is that in future, the style of npc combat will be similar to pvp combat, with far less targets in missions to deal with. Your proposal has no impact on pvp mechanics, since players can target whoever they wish, so it should have no bearing in pve either.
Except that's not what they are doing. They intend to move in that direction, but for now they are *just* doing the AI.
What I propose would add to the considerations of how to conduct pvp battles, at least for those that don't just look for lone pve people to murder when they fail to stop playing the game at the pirates whim. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1314
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Posted - 2012.09.24 02:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
I don't know, in missions I would much prefer the BS attack the little frig, since it can speed tank them forever. |
Gypsio III
Chemikals Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
367
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 08:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:I'm suggesting that tools be put in place to foster teamwork, rather than everyone be forced to come in ships capable of doing it all. How about a series of modules that improve the tank of all gang members? One set for armour, another for shield. Maybe another for sig radius? These modules could be fitted on a particular ship class, maybe BC hulls. We could even make them boost the RR mods that you can't be bothered to use. Of course, you still might have to bring the BC to the mission, unless of course their was some magical way of making these modules transcend grids. You are right! Why didn't I think of that... Oh wait. Maybe these should also require multiple skills at 5 to use! That way the newbies can jump right in there with them! Or I guess I could train them myself, I mean, I do have BC skill to 5 already so getting leadership isn't that big a deal... except that when they enter cruisers we are now almost the same size and get equal aggro from everything. I'll be fine because I know how to deal with it, but they will lose a ship every couple of missions and quit because losing all the damn time just isn't fun.
You don't get the newbie to use the gang links you imbecile, you use them yourself to benefit the newbies in your gang. Stop being wilfully incompetent. |
Snus Mumriken
EVE University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 09:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
I wonder why no one mentioned it yet, but how about not taking newbie frigs into L4 missions? This may sound crazy, but they are much better off in L1 and L2 missions, because they can actually handle them. I'm on Twitter. |
Griffin Omanid
IntersteIIar Moneymakers
13
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Posted - 2012.09.24 10:16:00 -
[25] - Quote
Snus Mumriken wrote:I wonder why no one mentioned it yet, but how about not taking newbie frigs into L4 missions? This may sound crazy, but they are much better off in L1 and L2 missions, because they can actually handle them.
When a newbie plays by himself you are right, but when playing with your corp-mates, L1 and L2 sucks. Ok it is quit fun flying a L3 in a HAC. I also flew with some Corp-mates in a L4 mission when I only played over one month, and it was only a Arbitrator. But it works fine because their were 2 faction BS, a BC and a logistic Cruiser in the group.
@ topic: I agree with the OP that with highe AI some Aggro mechanic may be usefull, but i also agree with others that this should also benefit PvP.
Whats about the following proposal. A provocation modul which when active forces a ship in a fix range (10-50 km) to log you. This way, assuming that most player ships can log 7 targets in pvp 7 tank ships with these moduls may be able to tank an opposing fleet (I know maybe for only 30 sec...). But with a range of only <50 km recons and logistic can still operate. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
426
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 10:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
solo pvp will get massively nerfed by new AI for all who hunts ratters in anomalies and plexes. |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
219
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 10:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hmm, Instead of some stupid, easy mode modules that undo most of the changes being made, maybe CCP could give you the tools to beat the new AI using some intelligence. Things that come to mind are cheap, low skill logistics platform, or some more anti-frig destroyers (as newbs in frigs will mostly only get targeted by the NPC frigs) or maybe just make the existing frigates and cruisers better...
...Oh wait, they already did. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Mate. |
Lord Ryan
True Xero
625
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 20:51:00 -
[28] - Quote
I keep hearing about this new AI to nerf solo pilots, but haven't seen the dev blog. Where is it? Do not assume-áanything above this line-áwas typed by me. Nerf the Truth, it's inconvenient. Nerf it cause I can't fly it. I want to fly a badass Mon Calamari stlye-ácruiser painted to match my Tron clothes. |
Astroniomix
Thorn Project
244
|
Posted - 2012.09.24 21:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:solo pvp will get massively nerfed by new AI for all who hunts ratters in anomalies and plexes. Not really, you won't be able to solo gank battleships haulers any more but it shouldn't be too hard for a ship to handle the few rats that choose to shoot at the ganker. (it's not like some missions don't do this already) |
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