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Michelson Morley
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:15:00 -
[1]
The other day I'm in a small fleet (~10) frigate roam in nullsec. We catch an Abaddon near a gate and proceed to pound it. It doesn't shoot back and eventually goes poof. As we understand it, the player didn't agress, logged off and because of this his BS disappears after only 60 seconds. If the latter is not how the game works, please let me know.
Assuming my understanding is correct, it seems that the correct action whenever one is attacked and the odds aren't good is to turn on one's tank and immediately log off. Assuming the enemy can't break your tank in 60 seconds, you "win". Win in the sense of not losing. I'm not saying I approve of that approach (I don't) but it seems to be a fairly large obvious way of avoiding costly deaths.
Also, given that, how does anyone manage to lose a carrier due to ambush? The argument against using a carrier for solo PvE is that a roaming gang can drop in on you and take you out. How? The carrier pilot just turns on tank and logs off. Assuming the carrier didn't attack, the roaming gang has only 60 seconds to kill him.
I'm sure I'm missing something here, so flame away and enlighten me.
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Muffin Bunny
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:28:00 -
[2]
Is it not the case that regardless of the defendant aggressing, if the attackers activate an aggressive module on them before they have initiated logging then they don't get the quick 60sec despawn? Or from as you are saying more like a normal aggro timer?
I too would like to know.
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L'ouris
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Posted - 2011.08.12 16:26:00 -
[3]
IRC;
If the guy tries to log off and has any Player aggression ( you shot him or he shot you, or drones shot you etc ) you have 15 minutes before he leaves the scene.
That said, if he logged off near the gate, you may have stumbled upon him after he had already logged with aggression. The random direction the log off warp takes you can do odd things.
Once in LXQ I had logged off in a safe, only to find myself 20km from a POS when I logged back in and started to warp back to my Safe, indicating that my ship had sat there outside POS shields unmanned until it poofed for a while.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.08.12 17:26:00 -
[4]
L'ouris is correct.....
The rules governing how soon your ship despawns are as follows:
1.) If you have no aggression prior to logging off, your ship will attempt to emergency warp 1m km's. It will despawn after 1 minute from logging off.
2.) If you have NPC aggression prior to logging off, your ship will attempt to emergency warp 1m km's. It will despawn after 2 minutes from logging off.
3.) If you have player aggression prior to logging off, your ship will attempt to emergency warp 1m km's. It will despawn after 15 minutes from logging off.
A couple of notes:
a.) You get an aggression timer if someone property aggresses your ship (ships, bubbles, POS mods), or if you aggress someone elses property (ships, shooting wrecks, cans, and drones, etc). I fairly certain (but haven't tested this) that looting will not give you an aggression timer w.r.t. logoff timers.
b.) The aggression timers listed above are NOT the aggression timers you see for looting, or GCC, or the like. There are no indicators at this point in time to let you know how much time is left on your timer.
c.) These aggression timers are system dependent. So if your aggressed in system A your timer is in systm A only. This means you can travel to system B and immediately log off without an aggression timer! However, if you travel to system B, and then travel back to system A, you will have an aggression timer if 15 minutes have not passed since you received the aggression timer.
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Michelson Morley
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Posted - 2011.08.12 17:47:00 -
[5]
Thanks for the clarifications. Two questions:
1) A ship is flying around ratting, with drones out. We drop in on him and start shooting. He just turns on his tank and logs off. His drones will automatically defend him. Does this count as aggression on his part?
2) If #1 is not the case, I still am puzzled on how one can kill a well tanked ship if the pilot is smart and doesn't do aggro except when they have overwhelming advantage.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:23:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Michelson Morley Thanks for the clarifications. Two questions:
1) A ship is flying around ratting, with drones out. We drop in on him and start shooting. He just turns on his tank and logs off. His drones will automatically defend him. Does this count as aggression on his part?
2) If #1 is not the case, I still am puzzled on how one can kill a well tanked ship if the pilot is smart and doesn't do aggro except when they have overwhelming advantage.
1.) If his drones engage you, or you shoot him BEFORE he logs off, he will have a 15 minute aggression timer. After he logs off, it doesn't matter what his drones are doing. The only thing that matters is his aggression state BEFORE he logs off.
2.) Remember, if you aggress him before he Logs, BOTH of you get the 15 minute aggression timer. There is very little you can do to catch and kill Bots and skittish carebears that log off before they become aggressed. However, if they become aggressed, 15 minutes is very LONG time in game, and is usually enough time to kill most ships in eve. With a 15 minute window, its also easy to get help. I've seen tackled carriers and titans get ganked when they log off to avoid destruction from a small group of ships. If you need more dps, put a call out for help, and they will come...
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.12 18:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Michelson Morley Thanks for the clarifications. Two questions:
1) A ship is flying around ratting, with drones out. We drop in on him and start shooting. He just turns on his tank and logs off. His drones will automatically defend him. Does this count as aggression on his part?
If you start shooting him, he will instantly get the aggression timer, even if he doesn't shoot back. As long as you get one shot in before he logs off, you have the 15 minutes to finish him.
Quote: 2) If #1 is not the case, I still am puzzled on how one can kill a well tanked ship if the pilot is smart and doesn't do aggro except when they have overwhelming advantage.
There are some really really dumb people in EVE. They usually end up on the wrong side of killmails.
Also, cloaky ships with smartbombs which aggress you the moment you see them. ---
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Michelson Morley
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Posted - 2011.08.12 20:11:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
If you start shooting him, he will instantly get the aggression timer, even if he doesn't shoot back. As long as you get one shot in before he logs off, you have the 15 minutes to finish him.
Ah, ok, this is starting to make sense. I thought it was just if the other guy was shooting back that he'd get the aggro timer. That seemed very abusable. It's only abusable if he logs off before we can get a shot off, which makes for a very skittish person indeed.
In this instance he had just jumped through a gate. So he had time to look around, realize the situation and log off.
Thanks for the info.
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.12 20:57:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Abdiel Kavash on 12/08/2011 20:58:10
Originally by: Michelson Morley Ah, ok, this is starting to make sense. I thought it was just if the other guy was shooting back that he'd get the aggro timer. That seemed very abusable. It's only abusable if he logs off before we can get a shot off, which makes for a very skittish person indeed.
I admit it can be confusing, as they are three unrelated timers called 'aggression timer'.
Already mentioned 15 minutes timer during which your ship doesn't disappear if you log off. This timer starts every time you attack or get attacked by anyone, and resets when you move to a different system.
1 minute gate/station aggression timer which doesn't allow you to jump or dock after you attack anyone. This is not triggered by just being attacked and not attacking back.
15 minute timer during which the owner of a can/wreck can legaly attack you in highsec if you steal from them.
Here "attacking" means using any offensive module: guns, EWAR, drones, etc.
Then there's the NPC aggression timer which generally does nothing, and CONCORD global criminal countdown (GCC) for attacking anyone in low or highsec. And the session change timer. ---
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.13 13:06:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Othran on 13/08/2011 13:07:03
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Then there's the NPC aggression timer which generally does nothing
If by NPC you mean Faction then oh my you are SO wrong :) If you mean belt rats then no worries - the remainder is just in case ;)
If you aggress on someone in Empire then not only do you have the GCC running (15m) you also have a factional aggression timer running which is also 15 minutes (eg do it in Amamake and you have 15 minutes aggression to Minmatar Republic).
HOWEVER if you then land on the same grid as a faction npc (eg sentry gun) the 15 minute factional aggression timer resets.
In practice the GCC timer is on top and the faction timer doesn't appear when GCC expires - haven't tested lately but its always been dodgy - so the "pirate" undocks/warps to gate and gets aggro'd by the sentry guns.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.13 13:11:00 -
[11]
Oh and one other "gotcha" that SO many people do after their ship explodes is to logoff.
This might work in highsec but in lowsec/null there WILL be someone who'll undock a prober just to pop that pod. 15 minutes is a LONG time to see a pod on scan when its quiet and NOT go pop it
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.13 13:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 13/08/2011 13:07:03
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Then there's the NPC aggression timer which generally does nothing
If by NPC you mean Faction then oh my you are SO wrong :) If you mean belt rats then no worries - the remainder is just in case ;)
Yea, I meant the belt rats aggression timer. I actually have no clue how the sentry guns thing works - I don't spend enough time in highsec for it to be an issue. ---
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.13 16:49:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Othran Edited by: Othran on 13/08/2011 13:07:03
Originally by: Abdiel Kavash Then there's the NPC aggression timer which generally does nothing
If by NPC you mean Faction then oh my you are SO wrong :) If you mean belt rats then no worries - the remainder is just in case ;)
Yea, I meant the belt rats aggression timer. I actually have no clue how the sentry guns thing works - I don't spend enough time in highsec for it to be an issue.
I do most PvP in null but enough in low-sec that the mechanics are important.
Its simple enough really - empire faction timer runs, guns are npcs, if guns "see" you they aggress (NB - they don't have to hit you to aggress) which resets the timer back to 15 mins.
Its a classic - kills loads of people. Personally I'd like an option to display all the timers currently running on-screen. I know you can mouse-over but some customisation of timers would be very welcome to everyone I think.
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Demerlis
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Posted - 2011.08.16 23:05:00 -
[14]
So it sounds like the effective 'exploit' strategy is to gate jump, see a camp waiting and log off before your cloak drops and any aggression is gained?
To carry on with this, does your 30s cloak continue meaning you only have to survive 30s before you poof?
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Cashews
Bastelrunde EV People in Lousy Ships
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Posted - 2011.08.17 13:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Cashews on 17/08/2011 13:54:42
Originally by: Demerlis So it sounds like the effective 'exploit' strategy is to gate jump, see a camp waiting and log off before your cloak drops and any aggression is gained?
To carry on with this, does your 30s cloak continue meaning you only have to survive 30s before you poof?
No. If you log off your emergency warp will start, which means: Drop cloak and (try to) warp. Furthermore a proper gatecamp will shred any ship coming thru a gate to pieces in under a minute. /edit: Freighters being the only class where this could be a viable option.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.17 14:34:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Cashews /edit: Freighters being the only class where this could be a viable option.
Not really. You're looking at about 175k EHP which equates to about 3000 DPS to kill it in a minute. Call it 6000 DPS by the time its probed and warped to. Freighters get suicide ganked in 0.5 sec space (hello Niarja campers!) so in low/null they're toast inside a minute. Jump Freighters have about twice the EHP so you're getting towards 10-12,000 DPS required unless you're on top of the emergency warp immediately. While its quite possible to gank a JF in highsec, it requires a good bit more firepower.
Oh and a tip for people in freighters who do manage to logout/dockup in low-sec - there usually WILL be someone waiting for you, even several days later I kid you not, I've seen it happen up Ingunn way. Took them a week but they got the guy's freighter - amusingly I think it was full of worthless crap IIRC
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.08.17 16:20:00 -
[17]
While it won't save you if you jump a freighter into a gatecamp (and nothing should be able to save you in this case anyway!), it's probably still good enough for an "OMIGOD that neut I thought was AFK cloaking is actually in a sabre on my gate" type of situation. |
Quebber
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Posted - 2011.08.18 15:04:00 -
[18]
As I told the leader in my last alliance if I buy myself a nyx or get into an erebus and am stupid enough to get grabbed by enemies then kudos to them I refuse to use log off as a tactic.
And that is the way I have taught the people in my corp now, engage or run but you log off as a tactic and I will shoot you myself.
Why ? because I have been on the otherside, worked damn hard to get a target and he pulls a logofsky so I know what it feels like to be that person.
So what If I loose a few more ships kudos to the one that beat me he/she deserves the kill mail.
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