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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1016
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 20:14:00 -
[31] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Xolve wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Feel free to clue me in on the reality, if I'm way off base. Situation Normal? vOv This game is about hard choices. You shouldn't be able to afford ALL THE THINGS. You should have to weigh the importance of alliance programs (e.g., ship reimbursement) versus how much sov you want to hold versus whether you should accept renters to pay bills versus whatever. You should not be able to make enough money to have zero choices, the amount of ISK you make should not eliminate having to make any tough decisions. Post-alchemy, hard choices are a factor of running a large nullsec alliance. Pre-alchemy/OTEC-boom, there were no tough decisions that needed to be made. You're wrong.
Currently the choice is 'should I take more space or not? This is the only incentive for null sec alliances right now for growth and to expand. We are currently encouraged to land grab as more land = more income. The individual systems are not valuable enough. In every constellation, there MAY be a single system worth hanging on to. This is for the common grunt all the way up to high level alliance leadership.
So, when you start to weigh the costs of sov and the horrible value of the space itself, you make the ~hard decision~ of who you want to be friends with in order to increase the quality of life for your pilots.
Null sec has been broken for a VERY LONG TIME. And any suggestion on how to fix it gets ignored and further met with nerfs.
This game's difficult choices should be met with a risk versus reward model and in it's current state, the less risk, the higher the rewards. The mechanics of this game support this.
EDIT: Let me break this down for you for my alliance who I feel holds a respectable amount of space for our size:
Last month: SRF: 80b Fuel for Towers: 70b Fuel for caps: 10b Sov Bills: 20b
This is how much it costs to do the bare necessities that pilots EXPECT out of null sec entities. Then you need to wage war. Currently the choice is to grab space so I can have that one valuable system in a constellation, should I have a ship replacement program to retain the quality pilots I desire to in my organization?
More space = more income. The way to fix this is to make the individual space valuable with rotating ratting crops a necessity and being able to tax the space itself. If I have my pilots rat a system into worthless space, they need to rotate that system out. A bonus side effect is that encourages pvp.
I've been harping on this for a long time. An alliance's income should be bottom up, not top down. Top down doesn't work because the individual feels as though he just 'works' for an organization rather than bottom up where a pilot could potentially feel as though he is contributing instead. Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
Dank Man
FinFleet Raiden.
119
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 20:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
You all forget about building supers in null? I mean granted all supers have blobbed up into major factions since logoffski changes, or gone into hiding/unsubscribed. But whoever holds null space, and can insure their control of that space for some time, can build more supers safely. With entities like CFC and HBC not selling outside their own coalitions, this will continue to focus power of the game in the hands of the large coalitions. If one side can escalate to triage carriers and blab dreads without fear of supercapital force to rival theirs, then it become even harder for people to branch into null sec warfare without massive coalition, that is why it is broken and people are not taking null. And why it can remain so valuable to those who are inclined to keep producing these now incredibly gimped expensive ships... more supers built = more ability to take more space, and more space concentrated in the hands of the blobs, I mean coalitions of the willing... |
Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
1016
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 20:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Dank Man wrote:You all forget about building supers in null? I mean granted all supers have blobbed up into major factions since logoffski changes, or gone into hiding/unsubscribed. But whoever holds null space, and can insure their control of that space for some time, can build more supers safely. With entities like CFC and HBC not selling outside their own coalitions, this will continue to focus power of the game in the hands of the large coalitions. If one side can escalate to triage carriers and blab dreads without fear of supercapital force to rival theirs, then it become even harder for people to branch into null sec warfare without massive coalition, that is why it is broken and people are not taking null. And why it can remain so valuable to those who are inclined to keep producing these now incredibly gimped expensive ships... more supers built = more ability to take more space, and more space concentrated in the hands of the blobs, I mean coalitions of the willing... Hello pot.
I'd like to introduce you to my friend, his name is kettle.
Oh how the tides have turned. Dual Pane idea: Click!
CCP Please Implement |
Lord Zim
1534
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 20:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
Last I checked, supers weren't used to win fights anymore, certainly not to the degree you're used to. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Snot Shot
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
381
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 21:00:00 -
[35] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Xolve wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Feel free to clue me in on the reality, if I'm way off base. Situation Normal? vOv This game is about hard choices. You shouldn't be able to afford ALL THE THINGS. You should have to weigh the importance of alliance programs (e.g., ship reimbursement) versus how much sov you want to hold versus whether you should accept renters to pay bills versus whatever. You should not be able to make enough money to have zero choices, the amount of ISK you make should not eliminate having to make any tough decisions. Post-alchemy, hard choices are a factor of running a large nullsec alliance. Pre-alchemy/OTEC-boom, there were no tough decisions that needed to be made. You're wrong. Currently the choice is 'should I take more space or not? This is the only incentive for null sec alliances right now for growth and to expand. We are currently encouraged to land grab as more land = more income. The individual systems are not valuable enough. In every constellation, there MAY be a single system worth hanging on to. This is for the common grunt all the way up to high level alliance leadership. So, when you start to weigh the costs of sov and the horrible value of the space itself, you make the ~hard decision~ of who you want to be friends with in order to increase the quality of life for your pilots. Null sec has been broken for a VERY LONG TIME. And any suggestion on how to fix it gets ignored and further met with nerfs. This game's difficult choices should be met with a risk versus reward model and in it's current state, the less risk, the higher the rewards. The mechanics of this game support this. EDIT: Let me break this down for you for my alliance who I feel holds a respectable amount of space for our size: Last month: SRF: 80b Fuel for Towers: 70b Fuel for caps: 10b Sov Bills: 20b This is how much it costs to do the bare necessities that pilots EXPECT out of null sec entities. Then you need to wage war. Currently the choice is to grab space so I can have that one valuable system in a constellation, should I have a ship replacement program to retain the quality pilots I desire to in my organization? More space = more income. The way to fix this is to make the individual space valuable with the ability to tax the space. You counter the stagnant ratting by making rotating ratting crops a necessity. If I have my pilots rat a system into worthless space, they need to rotate that system out. A bonus side effect is that encourages pvp. I've been harping on this for a long time. An alliance's income should be bottom up, not top down. Top down doesn't work because the individual feels as though he just 'works' for an organization rather than bottom up where a pilot could potentially feel as though he is contributing instead. Zag we all know thatGÇÖs just an excuse and will always be your excuse no matter how much CCP changes SOV. The fact is there are too many Alliances in 0.0 that couldnGÇÖt fight their way out of a wet paper bag let alone defend against a 100 pvp Corp if they wanted your spaceGǪ..
GǣDiplomacyGǥ will always be 0.0 biggest problem and unless CCP figures out how to put shock collars on all of you, 0.0 will continue to look like a scene from Caligula where everyone is screaming Gǣfarms and fieldsGǪGǪ..oh yeah!GǪGǪGǪ.farms and fields!!........
My recommendation is to GET RID Of SOV all togetherGǪGǪ.wait a year to see what happens, and then put something in place that keeps your hands off each otherGÇÖs junkGǪ . #tweetfleet @Snot_Shot-á - GÇ£If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" - Snot Shot - .....Yeah I'm a killin machine..... http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=50753
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Dank Man
FinFleet Raiden.
119
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 21:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Just reminding you all that holding null for low sec space isnt the only good reason to hold null sec sov... |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4879
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 04:12:00 -
[37] - Quote
Snot Shot wrote:collects a check for keeping goonies blue
funny, we're neutral to PL please leave |
Snot Shot
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
382
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 05:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Andski wrote:Snot Shot wrote:collects a check for keeping goonies blue funny, we're neutral to PL funny, no you're not..... . #tweetfleet @Snot_Shot-á - GÇ£If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" - Snot Shot - .....Yeah I'm a killin machine..... http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=50753
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Lucy Oreless
Raptus-Regaliter EntroPraetorian Aegis
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 06:42:00 -
[39] - Quote
Snot Shot wrote:My recommendation is to GET RID Of SOV all togetherGǪGǪ.wait a year to see what happens, and then put something in place that keeps your hands off each otherGÇÖs junkGǪ .
What would you recomend they put in place? Big pink fluffy ponies that everyone could hug and sing songs too? Your so cute sometimes you big cuddly bear you
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Lord Zim
1543
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 06:42:00 -
[40] - Quote
Snot Shot wrote:Andski wrote:Snot Shot wrote:collects a check for keeping goonies blue funny, we're neutral to PL funny, no you're not..... . funny, yes we are Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
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Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1233
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 07:30:00 -
[41] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Snot Shot wrote:Andski wrote:Snot Shot wrote:collects a check for keeping goonies blue funny, we're neutral to PL funny, no you're not..... . funny, yes we are Before this goes on any further:
http://www.eveskunk.com/standings.php?alliance=Pandemic%20Legion Caldari Militia |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 07:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
I'm pretty sure snot shot, in his illiterate way is trying to explain that PL and the HBC is still allied with the CFC regardless of personal/official standings. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1233
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 08:02:00 -
[43] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:I'm pretty sure snot shot, in his illiterate way is trying to explain that PL and the HBC is still allied with the CFC regardless of personal/official standings. They probably have a DON'T ANTAGONIZE policy towards each other. They all have a relationship with each other. Not sure why it should be surprising that they wouldn't be anxious to start throwing punches at each other.
Caldari Militia |
Lord Zim
1543
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 08:07:00 -
[44] - Quote
If only snot shot would set a post formatting course blue, maybe he'd be readable. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Roderick Grey
Assisted Genocide Black Legion.
71
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 08:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Roderick Grey wrote:I'm pretty sure snot shot, in his illiterate way is trying to explain that PL and the HBC is still allied with the CFC regardless of personal/official standings. They probably have a DON'T ANTAGONIZE policy towards each other. They all have a relationship with each other. Not sure why it should be surprising that they wouldn't be anxious to start throwing punches at each other.
Yeah they have that, they're also not allowed to harass each other's ratters, they can't attack each other's sov or structures, neither have formed up any major fleets against the other and they both publicly announced that if one was ever in need of assistance the other would come to assist.
They're allies. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1233
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 08:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
The following quote is a comment on the blog. Maybe from The Mittani. Maybe not. But certainly something I think he'd write. I figured I'd reply here, since the notion of me purposefully misinterpreting him has come up a couple of times.
The Mittani wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:The Mittani stated quite strongly that he felt alchemy should not have been introduced as a solution to high technetium prices without adding in a replacement source of income. In other words, Goonswarm should be able to continue affording all the things. It is unfair that they would now have to start prioritizing and making difficult choices. OTEC made everything very comfortable and cozy, and why should that not continue? Hey, good job on misinterpreting what I said then writing a blog full of 'analysis' based on your misinterpretation. EN24 will eat it up. You're partially right, I didn't bring up your ideas of bottom-up income earning (and taxation thereof). I didn't bring it up, because bottom-up income is not currently on CCP's development radar. And it's likely not going to be on their radar until mid-2013 at the earliest.
I think my comments still stand. Based on your commentsbecause you would prefer that CCP made no movement on a technetium nerf until such bottom-up income was implemented. Which means, you'd prefer that the technetium money train continue, unabated. At the minimum, that would be 18 more months. Probably longer. More than enough time to bankroll a giant wad of reserve cash, to safeguard against those changes for some lengthy period of time. That sort of monetary power and influence is unacceptable over such an extended length of time.
Again, no alliance in this game should be able to afford all the things without making tough decisions. Caldari Militia |
Lord Zim
1544
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 11:31:00 -
[47] - Quote
What mittens said was that CCP ****** up by nerfing tech without providing a replacement bottom-up income, which means that because of that we need more space, and that we have a nice stockpile of isk so we're not in immediate danger.
How can you go from that, to "waah how could CCP nerf tech :( :( :(" and "waah we have to make choices with how we spend our isk :( :( :("?
Also where do you get that the whole "technetium moneytrain" should continue unabated for 18 more months? Haven't you done the math on what tech will end up at in due time when pubbies start to actually do the alchemy to bypass tech and the northern war cools down (and POSes are no longer reinforced daily)? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Lucy Oreless
Raptus-Regaliter EntroPraetorian Aegis
36
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 11:44:00 -
[48] - Quote
Snot Shot and Poetic Stanziel
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Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards Black Core Alliance
105
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 13:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Test holds sov over 68 systems that are -0.09 or less.
Offline the TCUs, 12.24bil ISK per month saved.
Edit: wow, I just realized 30% of Test's systems are -0.09 or less. 47% is -0.20 or less. Is that representative of the distribution of sec values in null-sec, or skewed toward higher sec status than average? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8 |
Snot Shot
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
382
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 15:54:00 -
[50] - Quote
Roderick Grey wrote:I'm pretty sure snot shot, in his illiterate way is trying to explain that PL and the HBC is still allied with the CFC regardless of personal/official standings. .....You had to go and spoil the funGǪ I figured by the third GÇ£winkGÇ¥ Zim might have gotten my point since itGÇÖs the same approach they use as GÇ£standingsGÇ¥ towards each otherGǪGǪGǪ.Goonies are babysitting PLGÇÖs TECH forGǪGǪGǪGǪ.letGÇÖs call it GÇ£BroGÇ¥ standingsGǪ.
AnyhooooGǪGǪ..Poetic, I know you like this stuff so IGÇÖll put a little effort into this response for you. You need to dig deeper my man. Let me throw out a few statements which might give you a few different angles to look at how things work out in null sec, since you stated that youGÇÖre on the outside looking in:
There will always be a Gǣbroken game mechanicGǥ which require the majority of current 0.0 Alliances to be GǣBrosGǥGǪGǪ.
There will always be a GÇ£broken game mechanicGÇ¥ which require the CFC Coalition (which includes PL & TEST) having to crush smaller 0.0 AlliancesGǪ..GÇ¥CanGÇÖt have it take more than a weekGǪ.GÇ¥...
There will always be a GÇ£broken game mechanicGÇ¥ which requires (fill in the blank) hypocrisy to run rampant throughout null sec politicsGǪ..i.e. TEST GÇ£-A- Evil RenterGÇ¥ TEST GÇ£We need to RentGÇ¥GǪGǪGǪGǪCFC GÇ£NCDot are Evil ~Elite PVPGÇÖers~GÇ¥ CFC GÇ£If we protect your TECH PL can we keep being Bros?GÇ¥GǪGǪGǪGǪ
If I were you I would research who the specific people pulling the 0.0 strings and I donGÇÖt mean the basics. Make up one of those GÇ£websGÇ¥ connecting boards with them on it and run detail lines from who the puppets are, who the puppet maters are, and what the details of their relationships are. Do the research on what single point moments over the last 10 years solidified or broke each relationship and whatGÇÖs kept each going (good or bad) today.... See who's left on each side when your done...
I think you will find it interesting that itGÇÖs gotten to the point where the out of game relationships/egos/and grudges of a few people are drowning the aspects which use to make 0.0 interesting and that no "game mechanic" is going to solve that problem. YouGÇÖve got entire Alliances being held hostage by each other while chanting GÇ£Farms and FieldsGÇ¥GǪGǪGǪ.really? Rainbows and butterflies in Null Sec? Think about the weight behind the hostage crisis in the North. If one of those Alliances in the CFC step out of line they will be destroyed by the othersGǪGǪGǪ.I know thereGÇÖs a term for this strategy but could give no **** to look it upGǪ..
Take a look at the map and check out whoGÇÖs actually left GÇ£playing the gameGÇ¥ and not GÇ£politickingGÇ¥ their pilots into the best part of a GÇ£warGÇ¥ being a few songs, hypocritical propaganda posters, and videos of SOV grindsGǪ..
SOLAR/Pets - doesnGÇÖt get involved with 0.0 politics. All the other Russian corps are pretty much dead after drone goo and botting took a hit.
Providence Roll-players GÇô Keep to themselves.
IRC GÇô Care Bears that get farmed by GÇ£Elite CFC PVPGÇÖersGÇ¥GǪGǪGǪ.
NC./ BL/-A-/Nulli/Ev0ke/BND GÇô Are the only ones left basically still playing the GÇ£0.0 gameGÇ¥GǪGǪ
CFC = GSF/Gents/SMA/FA/FCON/PL/TEST/RZR/EXE/RDN/INIT/LAWN/XIX/TNT/AIFGǪ.etcGǪGǪ.typical response GǣGet better at diplomacyGǥGǪGǪ..this is where the Gǣdivde and conquerGǥ technique was take to another level where you Gǣdivide and take halfGǪGǪGǪ.divide again, and take halfGǪGǪGǪGǪ..divide again, and take halfGǪGǪGǪGǪ..divide again etcGǥGǪGǪ..
AnywaysGǪGǪ just some food for thought. I figure you can keep chasing the GÇ£what ifsGÇ¥ of a GÇ£broken game mechanicGÇ¥ troll, or get down in the mud with the rest of us and see whatGÇÖs actually going on..
Good article from a few weeks back is: Goonie History Lesson . #tweetfleet @Snot_Shot-á - GÇ£If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" - Snot Shot - .....Yeah I'm a killin machine..... http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=50753
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Lord Zim
1547
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 16:02:00 -
[51] - Quote
Too snotty, didn't read. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Lord Zim
1548
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 16:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
Actually, Poetic Stanziel, you should probably have a gander at http://themittani.com/features/hard-truths-fixing-nullsec-income Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1235
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:07:00 -
[53] - Quote
Again, with bottom-up income not even on CCP's radar, The Mittani wanted Tech income to continue unabated, until bottom-up was implemented (if ever.) That was not a realistic expectation.
Since bottom-up income may never come, and since eventually you're going to need more moons ... I suggest you turn on Pandemic Legion and start taking their moons. They don't own sov. They rarely fly their super-caps. They're just collecting money that could be put to better use in nullsec alliance programs (such as yours.) Caldari Militia |
Blawrf McTaggart
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1472
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:37:00 -
[54] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Again, with bottom-up income not even on CCP's radar, The Mittani wanted Tech income to continue unabated, until bottom-up was implemented (if ever.) That was not a realistic expectation. Since bottom-up income may never come, and since eventually you're going to need more moons ... I suggest you turn on Pandemic Legion and start taking their moons. They don't own sov. They rarely fly their super-caps. They're just collecting money that could be put to better use in nullsec alliance programs (such as yours.)
Thank you for your submission regarding strategic policy. We at Goonswarm Federation will certainly take it to heart. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1235
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:39:00 -
[55] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Thank you for your submission regarding strategic policy. We at Goonswarm Federation will certainly take it to heart. No problem. :)
Caldari Militia |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:40:00 -
[56] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Again, with bottom-up income not even on CCP's radar, The Mittani wanted Tech income to continue unabated, until bottom-up was implemented (if ever.) That was not a realistic expectation. Since bottom-up income may never come, and since eventually you're going to need more moons ... I suggest you turn on Pandemic Legion and start taking their moons. They don't own sov. They rarely fly their super-caps. They're just collecting money that could be put to better use in nullsec alliance programs (such as yours.)
http://themittani.com/features/hard-truths-fixing-nullsec-income
The fact that it may never come is the problem. We're faced with a situation where our income will dwindle and quite possibly vanish entirely depending on how CCP follows up on it. Leaving tech unabated wasn't an option, but the potential scale of the nerf from alchemy was a nuclear option rather than a middle-ground. |
Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1235
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
mynnna wrote: We're faced with a situation where our income will dwindle and quite possibly vanish entirely depending on how CCP follows up on it. Leaving tech unabated wasn't an option, but the potential scale of the nerf from alchemy was a nuclear option rather than a middle-ground. Let's not be too overly dramatic. Caldari Militia |
Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
495
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Again, with bottom-up income not even on CCP's radar, The Mittani wanted Tech income to continue unabated, until bottom-up was implemented (if ever.) That was not a realistic expectation.
The reason that isn't a realistic expectation is one of CCP's major shortcomings - they've got no problem with a drastic, wholesale nerf without coming up with an adequate replacement. The problem with Tech should have been the point where CCP realized that nullsec income is all kinds of ****** up and at least considered doing something about it, instead of just saying WELL TECH IS THE PROBLEM LETS JUST FIX THAT and ignoring the parts that would actually require work to solve.
Before you reiterate your "WELL THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS" point of view again, remember that we get it, we just think it's myopic and stupid.
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.09.26 18:52:00 -
[59] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:mynnna wrote: We're faced with a situation where our income will dwindle and quite possibly vanish entirely depending on how CCP follows up on it. Leaving tech unabated wasn't an option, but the potential scale of the nerf from alchemy was a nuclear option rather than a middle-ground. Let's not be too overly dramatic.
I'm not. The potential floor for Tech considering alchemy is around 16k per unit. Meanwhile, in the "tech is fine, l2p devblog" about the alchemy nerfs, CCP said that they plan to change how moon goo is acquired at some point in the future. If this system is ring mining, and they decide that players should just refine the ring mining goo regularly, then it's untaxable - just like regular mining, there is a break-point at which taking the goo to highsec to refine is more profitable than paying the tax, and that breakpoint is very low.
Things are okay for now since we're a long way off from that potential floor and have no idea when CCP will do their further changes, but saying that it could eventually render moon income non-existent isn't hyperbolic at all. |
Snot Shot
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
383
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Posted - 2012.09.26 20:46:00 -
[60] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Blawrf McTaggart wrote:Thank you for your submission regarding strategic policy. We at Goonswarm Federation will certainly take it to heart. No problem. :) .....................hey I got a submission to, where's the slot I put it in? . #tweetfleet @Snot_Shot-á - GÇ£If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything" - Snot Shot - .....Yeah I'm a killin machine..... http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=50753
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