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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Super Whopper
I can Has Cheeseburger
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Posted - 2011.08.19 00:27:00 -
[271]
Originally by: S8nt Just like I have to take 3.7 billion trit from Jita to 0.0 to build a Titan. I don't complain about that. But to jump a WH for a resource that is so small is a issue for people? So saying you need to have it all within one contained system so you never have to interact with the rest of EVE is not what the game is about. There is a place and source for each item in EVE. Yes, some resources in a area is ok, but not to the point where it becomes your main source of income.
What I am trying to say is... the primary focus for ratting is for the bounties, fighting is for kills, mining is for minerals. WH is for T3 materials. There can be a overlapping of reasources everywhere but each area needs it's main focus. If I want to get T3 materials I need to go to wormholes. If you want OREs and minerals you got to where it's at it's strongest. Say 0.0 or low sec.
Things just need to be split out tbh. Give each area in EVE it's own defined purpose, much like the roles of ships.
The WH's with a static exit to low/high sec aren't really a problem, a single transport ship can haul lots of high ends but one without a static entrance/exit can be difficult I imagine. That's why we're talking about nerfing, not removing. Also totally removing ABC's from WH space would cause an increase in T3 prices.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 01:32:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 19/08/2011 01:32:27 There needs to be a mining equivalent to the increasingly common ratting carrier. Because we're seeing what a 'mining carrier' can do already inside of the Drone Regions. |
Cid Kincaid
Minmatar Kagan-Kincaid Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.08.19 02:41:00 -
[273]
Being perfectly happy in high sec, these moves tick me off royally. People in Null Sec enjoy billions in assets while another source of ISK for people who don't want to subscribe to low/null sec garbage have to fly there to get fuel. Pulling potential assets out of WH space is great too, right? Less reason to get into WHs. The more I think about null sec, the more it seems like null is the only place anyone should be playing EvE if they want to see anything significant in the game. Moreover they can't do it without being trolled relentlessly which is extremely aggravating. Why is the focus on null sec independence and not symbiosis between all 3 regions? Are the majority of players really there?
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Shinzann
Dead poets society The Laughing Men
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Posted - 2011.08.19 05:14:00 -
[274]
Wormhole space is challenging enough as it is.
It doesn't need to have all the ABCs yanked out. You want to rebalance them to reduce the ABCs and add more low-end minerals? Sounds great.
It also doesn't need ice fuel to go up in price because all the ice cubes are in 0.0. Which is what will happen if that change goes through.
Also, where are all these 200M mining ships mining in W-Space? I could use the target practice.
This is my 0.02ISK === Q u o t e: If the servers aren't up, its not a hotfix. |
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
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Posted - 2011.08.19 05:22:00 -
[275]
Edited by: Messoroz on 19/08/2011 05:22:52 Edited by: Messoroz on 19/08/2011 05:22:40
Originally by: Cid Kincaid Being perfectly happy in high sec, these moves tick me off royally. People in Null Sec enjoy billions in assets while another source of ISK for people who don't want to subscribe to low/null sec garbage have to fly there to get fuel. Pulling potential assets out of WH space is great too, right? Less reason to get into WHs. The more I think about null sec, the more it seems like null is the only place anyone should be playing EvE if they want to see anything significant in the game. Moreover they can't do it without being trolled relentlessly which is extremely aggravating. Why is the focus on null sec independence and not symbiosis between all 3 regions? Are the majority of players really there?
Null sec whines more, wspace is just whatever and enjoys EVE as it was years before supers and blobs because wspace prevents it, lowsec is a rotting corpse which CCP is still ignoring, and highsec is clueless.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 05:56:00 -
[276]
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 19/08/2011 05:56:28
Originally by: Cid Kincaid Why is the focus on null sec independence and not symbiosis between all 3 regions? Are the majority of players really there?
Because that's what it is now. High-sec serfs grovel for the crumbs elite high-SP 0.0 players throw them to mine endless amounts of low-end minerals, then funnel them directly to 0.0 to manufacture large scale 0.0 projects. Carebears are asked to stay in highsec because they aren't needed in 0.0. Best they stay in hisec and work for peanuts. |
Dafydd ab'Rhys
Caldari Quantum Horizons Art of War Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.19 06:33:00 -
[277]
Hi all
As someone who has trained their mining skills to near ôGod-likeö (using HaladaÆs definition), I have invested some time in the area.
What I am thinking (and a lot of these concepts have been mentioned here before) is MINERALS 1. High sec roids only produce Trit; Pye; Mex & base ice products 2. Low sec roids produce Iso; Noxc & Stront 3. Null Sec produce Zyr, Mega and Morphite BELTS In High sec, Static Veld roids only, to give beginners something to start on. All other roids & Ice need to be found via exploration All belts can be depleted YIELDS Highsec û base yield Highsec roids Lowsec û base yield Lowsec roids & +50% yield Highsec roids NullSec - base yield Nullsec roids; +50% Lowsec roids & +100% yield Highsec roids
I have had no experience in using bots, so I am unsure if having non-static belts would stop them.
You could also have the normal non-static belts be the mining equivalent to anomalies so they can be found just using the onboard scanner; and then have signature grav sites that have roids from the category above (including higher yield versions (ie +50%, +100% & +200% respectively) of the Nullsec belt for Nullsec Grav sigs
Now we also have moon Goo and gas mining as well. I would keep gas mining as is but develop a gas mining ship (maybe a second T2 Procurer like the skiff).
I would also try to have some way of Ninja mining moons to provide some extra moon goo out there that may reduce the strangle hold of large alliances. Maybe a T2 mining Frigate, that is designed to cloak, approach a moon, locking (& decloaking) onto the moon with a special moon mining laser and mining the moon for a limited amount (due to hold size). If a moon can only provide a set amount (and I donÆt have any real experience in moon mining POSes) , then a POS array might have its yield reduced by the amount that is Ninja mined (imagine a flock of cloaked T2 bantams swooping down on an enemy alliance Tech moons, Draining them dry. Even if they get popped, they have still dealt a blow to the finances of the enemy alliance)
Just some ideas.
Dafydd
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Kiran
Minmatar Knights of Azrael Anti-Social Outcast
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Posted - 2011.08.19 06:52:00 -
[278]
The removal of ice from high sec would be catastrophic to the market and industry. It would also kill off the small independant alliance and corps that live in wormhole space. Many people have alts myself included who mine ice while playing on our main character this helps us to make isk, and for me research and development of BPO's which are safer in high sec than 0.0. You remove ice from high sec many players will suffer from this as there will be no where they can research items or build them. This will drive the price of ice through the roof and also the market prices will sky rocket on the smallest of things from ammo through to ships and equipment.
Small corps who opperate in wormholes that are linked to high sec will vanish and so will alot of the tech 3 production. No ice in high sec means they wont be able to survive in the wormhole without it.
Big alliances in 0.0 will control the ice belts and therefore the market, you really think alliance like -A-, Red Alliance etc are going to let smaller alliance hold onto the ice systems ? These mega alliances would control everything within Eve from the markets through to its pricing because if they need more isk they up the price of ice and so everyone in high sec who needs ice will have to pay it. The market in Eve will then be fixed by these big alliances which is illegal in the real world. So why should we put up with it in Eve ?
The removal of ABC ores from wormholes will also help to kill off this small proffesion of people who explore wormholes and live in them coupled with the fact they wont have a pos to run they wont be able to live in the wormholes because you have removed half of their ores that are needed for long term survival for the building of equipment and ammo.
If CCP wants to destroy the market and give a greater control to the bigger alliances within the game then remove ice and abc ore from high sec and wormholes this will stagnate the market and the game as a whole. Industry will die and CCP will loose subs through it because I know my alt account will be worthless to me if this is implemented and I will just close it down.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 07:09:00 -
[279]
Originally by: Kiran
Big alliances in 0.0 will control the ice belts and therefore the market, you really think alliance like -A-, Red Alliance etc are going to let smaller alliance hold onto the ice systems ? These mega alliances would control everything within Eve from the markets through to its pricing because if they need more isk they up the price of ice and so everyone in high sec who needs ice will have to pay it. The market in Eve will then be fixed by these big alliances which is illegal in the real world. So why should we put up with it in Eve ?
To counter, why should hisec control the ice market right now? The real problem is in the structure of hisec itself. 0.0 place mine the same same as ice as hisec, using the same ships as hisec, except hisec players don't have to worry about ganks or logistics or meet CTA commitments or anything else except hauling the ice straight to Jita. The Rorqual isn't really an equalizer compared to that. It's safe, riskless and just as profitable, and that is why the vast majority of everything is still made in highsec.
Ideally, the 0.0 economy should be more then just players lazily ratting up fat wads of ISK to pay for basic goods like trit and ice shipped from highsec.
Getting rid of ice belts isn't going to fix a damn thing and the real solutions to nullsec industry actually lie in the mechanics of hisec security and safety.
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Kiran
Minmatar Knights of Azrael Anti-Social Outcast
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Posted - 2011.08.19 07:18:00 -
[280]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Originally by: Kiran
Big alliances in 0.0 will control the ice belts and therefore the market, you really think alliance like -A-, Red Alliance etc are going to let smaller alliance hold onto the ice systems ? These mega alliances would control everything within Eve from the markets through to its pricing because if they need more isk they up the price of ice and so everyone in high sec who needs ice will have to pay it. The market in Eve will then be fixed by these big alliances which is illegal in the real world. So why should we put up with it in Eve ?
To counter, why should hisec control the ice market right now? The real problem is in the structure of hisec itself. 0.0 place mine the same same as ice as hisec, using the same ships as hisec, except hisec players don't have to worry about ganks or logistics or meet CTA commitments or anything else except hauling the ice straight to Jita. The Rorqual isn't really an equalizer compared to that. It's safe, riskless and just as profitable, and that is why the vast majority of everything is still made in highsec.
Ideally, the 0.0 economy should be more then just players lazily ratting up fat wads of ISK to pay for basic goods like trit and ice shipped from highsec.
Getting rid of ice belts isn't going to fix a damn thing and the real solutions to nullsec industry actually lie in the mechanics of hisec security and safety.
Or 0.0 needs to be made a more friendlier place for the ice miners to come to. If you read the whole post you would notice that I also mentioned that the majority of people in 0.0 do not want miners in 0.0. You need to change the attitude of these players not the game.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 07:32:00 -
[281]
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 19/08/2011 07:34:22
Originally by: Kiran
Or 0.0 needs to be made a more friendlier place for the ice miners to come to. If you read the whole post you would notice that I also mentioned that the majority of people in 0.0 do not want miners in 0.0. You need to change the attitude of these players not the game.
So what, is Grayscale supposed build a subliminal message into the eve client? Are the ice miners gonna sit in Keberz and stare at the passing ships with puppydog eyes?
The majority of people in 0.0 don't want ice miners in 0.0 because it's more cost-efficient to keep them in the ultrasaturated highsec market and jump freighter in all the ore and ice they need from there. The reason why nullsec ice miners are looked upon as unnecessary is because under the current ruleset, they are. If you want 0.0 players to welcome ice miners, CCP needs to make a concrete reason for them to want/need the average ice miner in their space. Simply removing ice belts from nullsec is a blunt, inelegant solution though. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.08.19 08:04:00 -
[282]
I love how the "Mining" thread, the occupation that is by far the most scoffed at, is running faster than the Sovereignty and Fighting threads ..
The carebear is strong in null after all
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power. Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 08:08:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida I love how the "Mining" thread, the occupation that is by far the most scoffed at, is running faster than the Sovereignty and Fighting threads ..
The carebear is strong in null after all
It's mostly hisec ice miners who don't want their belts taken away. |
AnzacPaul
the united Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 08:11:00 -
[284]
Perhaps a good sov upgrade would be to able to lock out certain systems gates for a period of time, so the miners can go out safely. Probably need to be dead end systems, with no hostile structures etc. Only allow X number of hours per week/day (even 2 hours a day 2-3 times a week, so you cant just lock the system 24/7), and that would encourage large ops within corps/alliances. only a director/etc can set the times via the calender with a reminder sent to you of the time in evemail.
In terms of hostiles being in local,maybe they could leave but not get back in?
Theres probably a million things wrong with this, but if you want to encourage "Carebears" into risky space, you need to add an element of safety. Just an idea.
______ Important stuff up there ^ ^ |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.08.19 08:25:00 -
[285]
Still too many minerals sourced from loot drops. |
Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:40:00 -
[286]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida I love how the "Mining" thread, the occupation that is by far the most scoffed at, is running faster than the Sovereignty and Fighting threads ..
The carebear is strong in null after all
It's mostly hisec ice miners who don't want their belts taken away.
That's probably a good indication that touching Ice field mechanics is a bad idea. Once again, CCP needs to stop endlessly meddling with game mechanics. Stop taking from one group so you can "buff" another.
My solution? Send the Russians to the SERENITY server and let them bot and brawl it out with the Chinese. Many bots will be gone, nullsec will return to non-bot sanctioning alliances, and the rest of us can get on with life in EVE. |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy Important Internet Spaceship League
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:16:00 -
[287]
lol - fix TQ server by deporting the russians to the chinese server? Epic solution Don't hold your breath though... -
I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew... |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:23:00 -
[288]
Originally by: Nicolo da'Vicenza It's mostly hisec ice miners who don't want their belts taken away.
Seems to be quite a bit of back and forth regarding the worm ABC's as well. Looking forward to hearing if most of that ABC is in fact consumed in T3 related gas reactions .. got the numbers yet Grey?
Originally by: Ceelah My solution?..
Bigoted much?
SHC had a "Do you bot/Have you botted" poll prior to being reformed, Russians did not frequent SHC in significant numbers yet 12-15% of responders answered in the affirmative ...
That high and mighty horse you like sitting on is a sad, crippled and colicky thing .. just sayin'
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Echo Mande
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:40:00 -
[289]
Edited by: Echo Mande on 19/08/2011 11:43:55 One thing that could be done with respect to mining in nullsec is to take another look at roid composition. Currently we have roids with 100%, 105% and 110% mineral content which can all be found in high-, low- and nullsec. We also have isotope ice in highsec and other ice in low- and nullsec.
One possible way to buff nullsec lowend mining and incidentally improve the lowend supply situation there is for instance to go to a composition ratio (compared to current standard roids) of 75%, 85% 100%, 110%, 125%, 140%, 160%, 250% and 500%, with 75%-100% being found in highsec, 100%-160% in lowsec and 140% and up in nullsec. WH space could have roids depending on WH category. Similar things could be done with isotope ice composition. Doing something similar to mid values (hemo, hed, gneiss, jaspet) and highends is possible but the ratio should IMO stay below 140%.
A further improvement to mining might be to replace half the belts in a system with scanable grav sites, perhaps containing roids of one composition level higher than a visible belt. This would hobble the bots, still give highsec newbies a place to play and keep the harder core miners somewhat interested while slightly harder to find by gankers. Industrial upgrade grav sites could also contain higher ratio roids. Very occasionally finding a fabled 250% arkonor roid in a L or XL upgrade grav site in 0.0 could be a treat, as could finding a 75% dark ochre rock in highsec.
If the current sovereignty system is replaced by one dependant on sov holder activity (comparable to the current industrial upgrade level), one other possible change is the mining rental contract. Basically an agreement between the holders and a contractor (corp or alliance) adding the contractor's mining activities to the owner's 'activity pool' and so keeping the owner's sov up. The contract could specify things like location (system, constellation) and might even include standings changes and station rights for the contract's duration.
Comments?
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:58:00 -
[290]
I'm still surprised that the myth that wormholes are these vast spigots of high end minerals into high sec is still prevalent. As it stands right now, with the current balance, there's indeed a bit of a surplus on megacyte as needed for our production, meaning my hole alone, I can't speak for others... and as an example, our last two gravs we were nearly able to suck dry (this was a good three weeks ago, no gravs since). From those two graves, 15K megacyte was deemed excess and brought to Jita. The remainder of all minerals stayed in hole for production. From that 15K mega, we purchased loads of tritanium, pyerite and ice fuels, digging into our wallets to get everything.
I did notice an interesting thing... the stock markets around the planet crashed after we sold the megacyte. Coincidence? However, the Jita markets were unaffected...
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:55:00 -
[291]
It turns out that if my understanding of T3 production is correct and there's ~200 units of megacyte in each T3 ship, then the amount of mega used to make T3 ships over the period I'm looking at is effectively negligible (it's like four orders of magnitude lower than the amount mined in w-space over that period).
That said, I'm slightly less worried about the current situation than I was, and by the sounds of it normalizing the mineral amounts more makes everyone pretty happy and resolves most of our concerns.
(Also for anyone who's not following we're leaning towards just making ice in empire non-infinite rather than removing it, but I realize most people coming in to post aren't actually reading the thread first, I just wanted to say this so people couldn't say we hadn't said it.)
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:24:00 -
[292]
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 19/08/2011 14:25:24 Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 19/08/2011 14:24:58 Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 19/08/2011 14:24:22
Originally by: CCP Greyscale It turns out that if my understanding of T3 production is correct and there's ~200 units of megacyte in each T3 ship, then the amount of mega used to make T3 ships over the period I'm looking at is effectively negligible (it's like four orders of magnitude lower than the amount mined in w-space over that period).
That said, I'm slightly less worried about the current situation than I was, and by the sounds of it normalizing the mineral amounts more makes everyone pretty happy and resolves most of our concerns.
(Also for anyone who's not following we're leaning towards just making ice in empire non-infinite rather than removing it, but I realize most people coming in to post aren't actually reading the thread first, I just wanted to say this so people couldn't say we hadn't said it.)
From my perspective, normalizing would be pretty sweet to be honest. Megacyte isn't a major source of income, and really serves the purpose of off-setting costs required to bring in lower end minerals that we simply don't have enough of. As long as there's enough for our goodies all around I think as a whole the population would appreciate that as a change. Just make sure you leave enough of the "good stuff" so we don't wind up having to import significant quantities of that.
Now... what's up with the spawn rate on gravs? We haven't had one in three weeks now and are mineral starved. I hope you take that into consideration with rebalancing... the numbers across the board don't reflect individual holes... you could have an unpopulated C2 with static Null/C5 with half a dozen or more gravs sitting there while our hole starves. At this point in time, there simply isn't enough minerals available in our hole to make a single missile even if we use Sleeper guts and duct tape. Having them die off after a period if untapped would help cycle them around better, or at least an increase in the spawn rate.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Kotami
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:29:00 -
[293]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale (Also for anyone who's not following we're leaning towards just making ice in empire non-infinite rather than removing it, but I realize most people coming in to post aren't actually reading the thread first, I just wanted to say this so people couldn't say we hadn't said it.)
HATE.
Adding ICE as a possible Gravimetric exploration site result. Less hate.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:38:00 -
[294]
Originally by: Kotami
Originally by: CCP Greyscale (Also for anyone who's not following we're leaning towards just making ice in empire non-infinite rather than removing it, but I realize most people coming in to post aren't actually reading the thread first, I just wanted to say this so people couldn't say we hadn't said it.)
HATE.
Adding ICE as a possible Gravimetric exploration site result. Less hate.
Including Ice gravimetric sites in wormholes, undying adulation and cookies in the mail.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Nathan Jameson
Talocan Vanguard Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:02:00 -
[295]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst From my perspective, normalizing would be pretty sweet to be honest. Megacyte isn't a major source of income, and really serves the purpose of off-setting costs required to bring in lower end minerals that we simply don't have enough of.
What he said. Those of us who mine, mine the ABC to sell, to then buy the lower-end stuff like Tritanium, to cart it back in. >_>
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Mortimer Civeri
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:42:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Mortimer Civeri on 19/08/2011 15:45:54 Never mind, reading comprehension fail.
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Kotami
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:44:00 -
[297]
Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Ug! reading comprehension is not your forte. He is stating that ice in Empire will deplete like regular roids. If he stated that, "We are thinking of putting Ice in Gravimetric anomalies." then you could do your happy dance, and as a matter of fact a whole bunch of wormholeres would join you too.
Uh. OK?
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Mindnut
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:51:00 -
[298]
Originally by: Charla Audin
Originally by: CCP Greyscale According to the latest data I have, 27% of Arkonor, 21% of Bistot and 25% of Crokite is mined in wormholes (including the improved ores).
On the safety front, I checked kills and it turns out that if you consider just kills in nullsec and w-space, 60% of covetors and 26% of hulks die in w-space, which suggests that newer players mining in w-space are dying a lot, but experienced ones are about as safe in w-space as they are in nullsec. Safer than I thought it was going to be, TBH, I stand corrected on that - hadn't looked at those particular data recently.
No No No No No.
WH space is dangerous and experienced players use covetors in WH because they are cheap and eay to replace. Only a novice uses an expensive hulk in WH space.
This just goes to show it is very dangerous to make assumptions even when you have data to support it.
I wouldn't say anything for sure in this case... I'm a god-miner. I learned to fly hulk before I could even sit in a battleship. There was one time I mined in a WH and that was just to get some zydrine for my production. I used 2 Covetors cause I'm not stupid and I can do my math =). I mined 45 mil worth of zydrine which is what the 2 covetours were roughly worth.
But tbh, if I had a few friends with me and an ECM boat in fleet I'd consider using Hulks.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:19:00 -
[299]
A sizable fraction of the WH Hulks that I kill fit dual stabs. This tells us two things - firstly, that many miners think that WHs are sufficiently dangerous that fitting WCS over other things is worthwhile, and secondly that many Hulks must avoid being ganked because the attacker didn't bring 3 points of tackle. In contrast, it's hardly worthwhile stabbing up a Covetor, so this would serve to skew the Hulk-Covetor death ratio in further in favour of Covetors.
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Daenna Chrysi
Amarr Omega Foundry Unit Shadows Of Betrayal
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:47:00 -
[300]
Lets see, these changes would force me into null sec. I have a major problem with this.
First of all let me say this again, I choose to stay in high sec, I am not a carebear I can travel in low and null, I choose not to.
I dont give a f*ck about the profits one can make in low/null, increasing them wont make me go there.
The one thing keeping me away from those parts of the game, are the a-holes who live there. And no matter how lucrative you make life in low or null, wont make me interested in living there.
You f*ck up my life in high sec, and you make wormholes worthless, I am leaving the game.
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