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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.15 15:35:00 -
[1]
Instant Local goes against everything you've written about 0.0 intel design goals. Switch it to delayed mode and give us some real intel tools:
- Upgrade the ship d-scan to have passive and active modes to add some range/detectability tradeoffs, and automate it's basic functions.
- Design a dedicated intel sharing system that allows for handing off of scan data between gang mates or to a chat channel.
- Perhaps allow for POS structures and outposts to scan at some limited range and share this data.
- Add some detectability topology to star systems with celestials affecting the scan results. For examples allow hiding behind planets, or having some reason to 'come in from the sun'.
- Cloaking will need to be balanced for this to work. Some way to detect the 'cloak signature' at the very least, and possibly limiting interaction with environment (like scanning, etc.) while cloaked. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.15 18:07:00 -
[2]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
This sort of thing is what we'd like to do, yes
Well, good to hear, though that "sort" is kinda worrying me. I hope actual implementation details will also be up for some debate.
Just a couple things to add to delayed local items:
- The new d-scan could be made for easier/earlier detection of larger ships and especially larger fleets, which would contribute to your Small vs Large Combat differentiation. The ultimate here would be to allow warping to extremely large fleet d-scan signatures, which would give some way for a smaller gang to harass a large fleet while keeping its lower detectability advantage. This will also give some tactical option to fleets. All of this should be a function of detection range though.
- On the subject of intel tools, the star map could use some love to allow for a strategic display of corp/alliance/fleet intel. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.16 14:25:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 16/08/2011 09:16:53
Originally by: Razin
- Cloaking will need to be balanced for this to work. Some way to detect the 'cloak signature' at the very least, and possibly limiting interaction with environment (like scanning, etc.) while cloaked.
You can't have a way of even detecting a "cloak signature", even if there's no way of decloaking or finding the cloaked ship. If you do, it not only takes us straight back to the AFK-cloaking-being-used-to-counter-bots problem, as people will refuse to PVE while they can detect any danger, such as from a ship cloaked in system. You just move the method of detection of a hostile from local to this new "cloak signature".
Worse than that, it would utterly break wormholes, the last home of proper Eve play. True cloaking - meaning that there is no way of detecting a cloaked ship in system - is essential for wormholes, as, just like in 0.0, no-one would run a site, do a PI run or even leave POS while they knew there were hostiles in system. Even if you limit the "cloak signature" detection to Sov 0.0, which would spare WHs, you just end up unchanged from the current state of botting and AFK cloaking.
Like or not, cloaking only works if you can't be detected - because otherwise, you aren't cloaked! If you don't like this, change the ability of ships fitting different meta cloaks to gather intel themselves, and fiddle with their fitting requirements and penalties. The fact that WH space has been such a great success, completely reinvigorating small-scale interactions and PVP, proves that there is absolutely nothing to fear from "true" cloaking.
I see no problem in the use of afk cloakers for the purpose of harassment. It requires a dedicated char, and it requires for that char to actually enter the system.
On the other hand, I do see that this may be a little too much return for being afk. The detection of a 'cloak signature' doesn't have to happen at the same kind of ranges that a ship's d-scanner is capable of. The detection range could be much shorter to force the cloaker to actually follow it's target to achieve any harassment.
This would require even more effort from the cloaker if cloaking is further adjusted to cause a reduction of the cloaked ship's d-scan range, for example. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.16 17:39:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Gypsio III In practice, this means that it must be possible for a cloaked scout to jump in, find a ratter/botter and tackle it before his cloaked signature is detected.
As long as the cloaked scout can scan farther than the range it can be detected at all is good. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.17 15:18:00 -
[5]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale As a general observation, we know local needs a look at, ..., but those aren't the problems we're trying to solve here (and I'm skipping over all those posts)
Notsureifserious.jpg
How can you do any "0.0 intel" development while avoiding the main problem with 0.0 intel? Why not do it right the first time rather than count on some 'iteration' years from now? Haven't we been down this road before? ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.18 13:45:00 -
[6]
In addition (to Gypsio III's post above), most of your 0.0 Intel design goals are either meaningless or just don't work very well with instant local to provide the depth and complexity you seem to be looking for. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.18 18:40:00 -
[7]
Quote: Local and cloaking and scanning and so on are important, and they're one of the most visible elements
They're not just important and most visible; to most players they are (among) The Most Important elements because they are Gameplay. An in-game (because player created tools exist in abundance outside the game) dedicated intel processing and sharing system would be very nice, but it is the collection of intel that is the part that is currently lacking due to simplistic and omnipotent local.
And it's not just the intel gathering game that is hampered; instant local severely limits tactics for both large and small gangs, so switching it to delayed mode (with associated dscan changes) would go a long way towards meeting many of your other design goals. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.22 14:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
You guys all saw the post where I said we'd likely deal with local before addressing the rest of this stuff, right?
Thing is most of us here had more or less the same impression from your previous post on this subject, that being that you werenÆt too concerned with local as an immediate problem that stands in the way of your 0.0 intel plans. Even in this clarification you donÆt say you will deal with local, but only that youÆd likely deal with it. I think you can see why you are getting this kind of reaction.
As MagÆs says above, players consider immediate local a much larger issue than you seem to, the one that has absolute influence on intel collection. Anything that happens to intel after collection is secondary, and should probably be the function of the tool that replaces the current local anyway.
Additionally, strategic intel analysis and sharing is currently done by web-based player-made tools, and arguably this is the best way to do it since you canÆt have that kind of customizability in-game.
... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.08.25 22:43:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Razin on 25/08/2011 22:43:53
Originally by: Orakkus
Third, Sov holding entities can put up "Ranged Scanner" module at a POS, which will transmit a local for every system that they sov holding entity owns in that constellation to all friendlies in that constellation, and it will be real-time.
You and the other posters proposing these deployable structures to give you local need to re-read Grayscale's 0.0 Intel design goals. ... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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