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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 20:58:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Mendolus Well, if it happens, we are all as good as gone aren't we?
And it looks like from the previous track record with MMOs, that all the bemoaning in the world did not prevent the introduction of non-vanity items to a game, so...
Let me remind you guys, I am here personally to spend time with friends, and ride this game until the wheels fall off, or until non-vanity items are introduced. Until that very day, I would prefer to just logon and have some fun, because unless someone can provide me with factual evidence of any time in an MMO where the subscriber base successfully averted the introduction of non-vanity items through their dialog with the developers, all of this is really just an exercise in futility.
If it is going to happen, it is going to happen, the only thing we can do is unsubscribe from the game when it does.
Obviously it's an exercise in futility doesn't mean we can't put it all out so we can point later and say "see I told you so"
Ultimately as Keynes said "in the long run we're all dead" it's just a matter of passing the time until the end.
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Stitcher
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.31 21:10:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung Or STO if you were there to watch that disaster. They crowed the "Vanity items only" on their forums too. The SECOND the game launched they put races that have ingame effects you cant get in game in there. NON VANITY Then ships with abilities the other in game ships cant get NON VANITY Then sp boosters that made you level faster NON VANITY hell they even made respecs cost REAL MONEY
Dont believe me? Look for youeself
False Attribution: You are appealing to irrelevant information. STO is not EVE, and CCP are not Cryptic (well, they can be. but not that kind of Cryptic) The fact that something was done in STO has no bearing on whether or not it will be done in EVE.
Hasty Generalization: "I can prove that one games developer has introduced non-cosmetic microtransaction items to their games after promising not to. This is proof that ALL games developers will do so."
and finally: Mind Projection Fallacy. "I believe that CCP intend to go back on their word. Therefore, they are going to go back on their word." -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 21:38:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Sullen Skoung Or STO if you were there to watch that disaster. They crowed the "Vanity items only" on their forums too. The SECOND the game launched they put races that have ingame effects you cant get in game in there. NON VANITY Then ships with abilities the other in game ships cant get NON VANITY Then sp boosters that made you level faster NON VANITY hell they even made respecs cost REAL MONEY
Dont believe me? Look for youeself
False Attribution: You are appealing to irrelevant information. STO is not EVE, and CCP are not Cryptic (well, they can be. but not that kind of Cryptic) The fact that something was done in STO has no bearing on whether or not it will be done in EVE.
No he's not he's drawing a comparison with a similar entity and event. He's given an example of another company that has followed this path and shown where they went. It is never implied or suggested that CCP and Cryptic are the same further false attribution is not what you are claiming it is.
From your link "occurs when an advocate appeals to an irrelevant, unqualified, unidentified, biased or fabricated source in support of an argument"
The comparison is relevant, qualified, identified, unbiased and accurate therefor this is not an example of false attribution. It's a simple statement of fact Cryptic's STO is the closest example in similarity to EVE, it's a space based MMO. That swore they were only going to go with vanity items then went back on their word.
Quote:
Hasty Generalization: "I can prove that one games developer has introduced non-cosmetic microtransaction items to their games after promising not to. This is proof that ALL games developers will do so."
No one is saying it's proof of anything it's simply evidence that what a game developer says does not have any relationship to their ultimate actions.
Quote:
and finally: Mind Projection Fallacy. "I believe that CCP intend to go back on their word. Therefore, they are going to go back on their word."
The problem for you is that CCP has already went back on their word simply by introducing the NEX store in the first place.
CCP blew their credibility when they stated they had no plans to implement Micro-transactions in May of 2010 when it's obvious that such plans must have existed for them to have implemented the NEX a year later.
Let me go over that again in case you missed it in May of 2010 CCP stated plainly that they had "no plans for micro-transactions" 1 year later they show the NEX store to the CSM.
Once again a lack of faith in CCP's word is a quite rational position given past history.
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Stitcher
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.31 21:52:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Skex Relbore Let me go over that again in case you missed it in May of 2010 CCP stated plainly that they had "no plans for micro-transactions" 1 year later they show the NEX store to the CSM.
"We presently have no plans to..." is a very different thing from "we categorically will never..." -
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain.
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Elyssa MacLeod
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Posted - 2011.08.31 22:41:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Mendolus
Let me remind you guys, I am here personally to spend time with friends, and ride this game until the wheels fall off,
actually it looks like youre here to cruise the forums lol You ever spend time IN GAME or are you like me where he forums are more fun than the game?
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.31 22:43:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 22:44:53 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 31/08/2011 22:44:14
Originally by: Stitcher
Originally by: Sullen Skoung Or STO if you were there to watch that disaster. They crowed the "Vanity items only" on their forums too. The SECOND the game launched they put races that have ingame effects you cant get in game in there. NON VANITY Then ships with abilities the other in game ships cant get NON VANITY Then sp boosters that made you level faster NON VANITY hell they even made respecs cost REAL MONEY
Dont believe me? Look for youeself
False Attribution: You are appealing to irrelevant information. STO is not EVE, and CCP are not Cryptic (well, they can be. but not that kind of Cryptic) The fact that something was done in STO has no bearing on whether or not it will be done in EVE.
Hasty Generalization: "I can prove that one games developer has introduced non-cosmetic microtransaction items to their games after promising not to. This is proof that ALL games developers will do so."
and finally: Mind Projection Fallacy. "I believe that CCP intend to go back on their word. Therefore, they are going to go back on their word."
Learn from the past or youre doomed to repeat it. so yeah.. pretend theres no corollary all you want.
I dont expect YOU to get it tho; youre far far too CCP fanboi for reason to affect you -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
supersexysucker
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Posted - 2011.08.31 22:54:00 -
[157]
It aint microtrasnactions...
A micropayment is a financial transaction involving a very small sum of money and usually one that occurs online. PayPal defines a micropayment as a transaction of less than 12 USD.
It's a full out buying shiť while still paying for a sub.
Fucĸ ccp.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 01:15:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Elyssa MacLeod
Originally by: Mendolus
Let me remind you guys, I am here personally to spend time with friends, and ride this game until the wheels fall off,
actually it looks like youre here to cruise the forums lol You ever spend time IN GAME or are you like me where he forums are more fun than the game?
I'm a software engineer, so when I get writer's block, I come to the internet to shake stuff loose, helps to exercise your mind on something different, even if it is just mundane like posting on online forums. It breaks the vicious cycle and card house I had built up in short term memory so I am not stuck in a damned loop for hours.
It's... not exactly easy to explain, but yea, 95% of my posts are done while at work,
I PLAY the game in my free time.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 01:32:00 -
[159]
Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 01:34:11
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Learn from the past or youre doomed to repeat it. so yeah.. pretend theres no corollary all you want.
I dont expect YOU to get it tho; youre far far too CCP fanboi for reason to affect you
Sullen, I'm still waiting on some factual evidence that supports the notion that anything we do on these forums may change CCPs mind in the longrun concerning the mere possibility or advent of non-vanity items in the game.
I know I know, what else are we gonna do right? You know I watch the news, or read it daily, I have a TV, I am connected to the world around me, BUT I really do feel for people who decide to unplug, claiming they live much happier lives when they are not watching death and destruction on the news every day of the week.
Some bull**** is always happening somewhere to someone and it never ends, that's the way of it, it does not mean we are apathetic, it just means how are we going to live if we are never actually living it because we're too worried about everything else?
Look, unless you can prove to us that there is a precedent in the MMO industry of the subscriber base both having forewarning about the impending introduction of non-vanity items and somehow preventing it by vocal discord or public rally, I am skeptical at best that any of this is worth it.
Look at it this way, what is the only real thing we can do? I know hundreds of people on these forums have likely pointed it out, the one thing we have control over is our subscription itself, that's literally it, have no illusions, CCP owns everything else but the money we give them until it leaves our bank account and enters there's.
But see this is the catch, if we all unsubscribe en masse, this will force CCP to recoup the losses somehow, as they have overhead and operating costs, the same way that newly minted MMOs come out with all these hopes and dreams that they will reach a critical mass of subscriptions to recoup their investment costs, and when that doesn't happen, guess what... non-vanity MT is next. Surprised much?
So if we all do the only thing we really have any control over, to protest the notion of non-vanity MT being included in the game we will actually nail the lid on the coffin on it and create our own fun little self-fulfilling prophecy.
SO this is the real world, sometimes we have 0 control over something, and our choices are to dwell on it and make ourselves miserable over it, or have fun and do what we want while the doing is good, and as long as it lasts.
SO for as long as this game has no non-vanity MT items in the NEX store, I could give a red cent less if it is coming soonÖ cuz we all know that means years and years anyways, so I plan on enjoying this game while it lasts.
Are you going to spend the next 24-48 months camping these forums protesting non-vanity items?
I will make a bet with you, it is friendly, there are no wagers, but I will bet you that in six months you will not be here daily duking it out over non-vanity MT, cuz between you and me, that would be extremely depressing if it were me and that was my free time for entertainment, *****ing on some online forum for a few hours every single day all year round for years on end.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Flamespar
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Posted - 2011.09.01 01:57:00 -
[160]
I love how people rage about something that is entirely optional.
Don't like NEX? Then don't buy anything.
But feel free free to rage on the forums and make wild claims about representing everyone who plays.
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Mallak Azaria
Three 6 MaFiA KRYSIS.
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:20:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Flamespar I love how people rage about something that is entirely optional.
Don't like NEX? Then don't buy anything.
But feel free free to rage on the forums and make wild claims about representing everyone who plays.
I represent everyone that plays EVE when I say that everyone loves the NEX store.
================================================== I love and hate 0.0 these days and feel CCP is taking a big **** on my chest every time i see super carriers. ~Tipsy McStagger |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:27:00 -
[162]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 02:27:19
Originally by: Mendolus
Sullen, I'm still waiting on some factual evidence that supports the notion that anything we do on these forums may change CCPs mind in the longrun concerning the mere possibility or advent of non-vanity items in the game.
yes look at it like this, id rather spend my time "whining on the forums" than lying back and letting them cram this bull**** into another game I like.
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
I represent everyone that plays EVE when I say that everyone loves the NEX store.
0/10 try harder
Sitting back an being quiet while CCP destroys the game as I (and not too few others) see it just isnt in my nature -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Forum Worrier
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:33:00 -
[163]
I love "microtransactions" i can buy for $0, just some of my surplus isk.
I even help out those who have been paying to win for years by buying their plex.
Everybodies happy.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:40:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 02:44:29
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
yes look at it like this, id rather spend my time "whining on the forums" than lying back and letting them cram this bull**** into another game I like.
So you're the guy that sits and shakes his fist at the molten lava rolling down the hill about to overcome your entire town, instead of ya know, kissing your wife goodbye or if you have five or ten minutes left ya know... *cough* ?
Always wondered whether those guys existed!
Originally by: Forum Worrier I love "microtransactions" i can buy for $0, just some of my surplus isk.
I even help out those who have been paying to win for years by buying their plex.
Everybodies happy.
Your logic is lost to these diehards, even if you sat down and actually tallied up real numbers from CCP to show just how many people 'buy into' the game with PLEX alone, they still would not believe you that P2W has been around since the moment GTCs were introduced? I mean... you can pay $$$ in real life, to get $$$ in the game already, what is so hard for people to understand about that being P2W?
Does it mean rich fools are spending a million dollars a year to 'win' EVE? No. Does it mean some tard somewhere prolly bought a few thousand dollars worth of PLEX so he could have his own personal Titan, sure! But did he win EVE with it? Hardly.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Trolls Troll
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Posted - 2011.09.01 02:46:00 -
[165]
Originally by: supersexysucker It aint microtrasnactions...
A micropayment is a financial transaction involving a very small sum of money and usually one that occurs online. PayPal defines a micropayment as a transaction of less than 12 USD.
It's a full out buying shiť while still paying for a sub.
Fucĸ ccp.
Lol not bad.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:09:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:11:00
Originally by: Mendolus
So you're the guy that sits and shakes his fist at the molten lava rolling down the hill about to overcome your entire town, instead of ya know, kissing your wife goodbye or if you have five or ten minutes left ya know... *cough* ?
Always wondered whether those guys existed!
lol as I said. Sgt Shutlz have it your way Ostrich, stick your head in the sand. It might protect you.
In your own analogy, guess youre the guy that turns away from it and says "If I dont see it, it doesnt exist" see how well THAT turns out lol
Originally by: Mendolus
Your logic is lost to these diehards,
lol WE'RE diehards? How many pages and other threads have YOU been in defending this **** lol look in the mirror buddy
oh you cant your head is in the sand -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:17:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
lol as I said. Sgt Shutlz have it your way Ostrich, stick your head in the sand. It might protect you.
In your own analogy, guess youre the guy that turns away from it and says "If I dont see it, it doesnt exist" see how well THAT turns out lol
I already know how it is going to turn out, so I am having my fun while it lasts, kinda like life ya know?
I am a realist, you are a pessimist. I accept my fate, you do not.
Pretty simple really.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:20:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
lol as I said. Sgt Shutlz have it your way Ostrich, stick your head in the sand. It might protect you.
In your own analogy, guess youre the guy that turns away from it and says "If I dont see it, it doesnt exist" see how well THAT turns out lol
I already know how it is going to turn out, so I am having my fun while it lasts, kinda like life ya know?
I am a realist, you are a pessimist. I accept my fate, you do not.
Pretty simple really.
you refuse to believe theres hope that if you speak out theyll rethink their plans
doesnt sound optomistic to me sounds down right pessimistic to me. I COULD be wrong, but it looks like speaking out already caused CCP to rethink the plans they had. Didnt they abandon plans for that scorpion you yourself brought up BECAUSE OF PLAYER REACTION?
Hey look, you brought your own example. -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:25:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung ...
They planned to release it ahead of the item exchange, i.e. that it would eventually be a true vanity item since you would have exchange a ship of equal value to receive a ship with different paint.
Anyways, you seem to take this game a little too seriously, and I am not in the mood to discuss things at that level, so I will end this here. Good luck to you, I hope you find some way to entertain yourself in the future in other games, sounds like this one is done for you.
You are asking for what, proof that they will never release non-vanity items otherwise you are going to wage a forever war of words on their game forums until you get it? You will never get your proof. So, enjoy? ...
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:34:00 -
[170]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:35:40 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:35:18
Originally by: Mendolus
Anyways, you seem to take this game a little too seriously, and I am not in the mood to discuss things at that level, so I will end this here.
lol later shultz
love it tho, IM the one "taking it too seriously" when IM just not lying down to let CCP run over me.
-------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
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Forum Worrier
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:42:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
lol later shultz
love it tho, IM the one "taking it too seriously" when IM just not lying down to let CCP run over me.
Must get last word in on internets or I have lost!
Taking it seriously enough to edit that last post twice.
Sad.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:45:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:46:24 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:45:42 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:45:45 Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 01/09/2011 03:45:50
Originally by: Forum Worrier
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
lol later shultz
love it tho, IM the one "taking it too seriously" when IM just not lying down to let CCP run over me.
Must get last word in on internets or I have lost!
Taking it seriously enough to edit that last post twice.
Sad.
yup this be the best game in the world
EVE-O -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:36:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Stitcher Edited by: Stitcher on 31/08/2011 22:20:34
Originally by: Skex Relbore Let me go over that again in case you missed it in May of 2010 CCP stated plainly that they had "no plans for micro-transactions" 1 year later they show the NEX store to the CSM.
"We presently have no plans to..." is a very different thing from "we categorically will never..."
the former simply means that, at the time of issuing the statement, they were not actively working towards implementing microtransactions. Such a statement is not incompatible with the subsequent introduction of the NeX store.
It is NOT a cast-iron promise that there will never be microtransactions at all. If they had made such a promise, then you would have a point. They did not. They have not gone back on their word. What you're doing is misinterpreting their statement and then getting angry when their actions don't match your inaccurate belief about what they meant, even though their actions entirely do match what they actually said.
If I say "I'm not planning to go shopping today" but then I go to the cupboard and find I'm out of tea bags so decide to pop out and do my groceries anyway, that doesn't make the first statement a lie.
You really think this thing went from no we aren't going to do this to actual implementation from this company in less than a year? They've spent how many years to come out with the joke that's the captain's quarters? and you think they managed to push this out in less than 12 months? hah.
Please, there is no way I believe they went from "no plans" to implementation in less than a year.
And even if that's the case the only commitment we have on P2W is that same "no current plans" "promise".
They showed quite clearly that such a commitment means well precisely jack all. Ergo their complete lack of credibility on the commitment to stick to "vanity" only.
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Myxx
Atropos Group
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:44:00 -
[174]
I love this thread so very much. I'm getting quite the laugh out of people trying to defend the nex store.
I still think it ought to be torn down entirely. --
Originally by: CCP Explorer (and if you guys would also stop using Drakes it would be really appreciated, kthxbye).
Originally by: Tom Gerard
Then again... I am a moron.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:46:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Myxx I love this thread so very much. I'm getting quite the laugh out of people trying to defend the nex store.
I still think it ought to be torn down entirely.
lol you must be to the point of tears with Mendolus -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Flamespar
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:49:00 -
[176]
If people like and use NEX it will remain.
If people don't like it, and don't use, it it will not.
CCP aren't going to put tons of developmental time into a feature that nobody uses.
PS. I love Incarna, and I love you.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:53:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Myxx I love this thread so very much. I'm getting quite the laugh out of people trying to defend the nex store.
I still think it ought to be torn down entirely.
Combination of denial, paid shills and unrealistic optimism.
I agree that the it should be removed it's presence will continue to draw the attention of the bean counters who only understand value in terms of revenue generators and cost centers that are easily tangible yet have problems with valuing intangible assets like customer loyalty and corporate integrity.
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Aldan Romar
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.09.01 06:00:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Mallak Azaria I represent everyone that plays EVE when I say that everyone loves the NEX store.
I hate to do this, but all the whiners in this thread are not (okay, maybe they have ceased playing EVE...).
So just lie back, collect their tears, and enjoy...
'Style over substance |
Mokanor Lenak
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Posted - 2011.09.01 06:02:00 -
[179]
People are angry that prices are high because they want to buy something. People are angry that prices are low because they want to sell something. People are angry when PLEX price might go up because they buy it for game time. People are angry when PLEX price might go down because they sell it for ISK. People are angry that vanity items are out of their reach. People are angry that they can buy vanity items but it cost a lot. People are angry that they don't have new ships. People are angry that they can't get current ships fast enough. And everyone blame it on CCP.
You just can't please anyone...
Its a game. Its just ISK, not game breaking mechanics gone wrong.
Get a grip on your nerves. Go out for a walk and take a break and a breather. Enjoy the game, not the jealousy that person X has a bionic eye in his portrait or not.
People say this is not WoW, but its so much like WoW community wise. People just keep *****ing about 24/7.
Seriously...
P.S This is not microtransaction.
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Skex Relbore
Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 06:32:00 -
[180]
Originally by: Mokanor Lenak People are angry that prices are high because they want to buy something. People are angry that prices are low because they want to sell something. People are angry when PLEX price might go up because they buy it for game time. People are angry when PLEX price might go down because they sell it for ISK. People are angry that vanity items are out of their reach. People are angry that they can buy vanity items but it cost a lot. People are angry that they don't have new ships. People are angry that they can't get current ships fast enough. And everyone blame it on CCP.
You just can't please anyone...
Its a game. Its just ISK, not game breaking mechanics gone wrong.
Get a grip on your nerves. Go out for a walk and take a break and a breather. Enjoy the game, not the jealousy that person X has a bionic eye in his portrait or not.
People say this is not WoW, but its so much like WoW community wise. People just keep *****ing about 24/7.
Seriously...
P.S This is not microtransaction.
Way to not understand the issue.
Most of the people who are angry about the NEX store could give a **** about the prices of the items in the NEX store.
What people are concerned about are the following
The possibility of the NEX moving beyond "Vanity" items to stuff that provide actual game play advantage by bypassing game mechanics.
The fact that development of the NEX store and content for it is taking resources away from other aspects of the game that need development resources, CCP has admitted that the art department is the major bottleneck for developing other game content and guess who's doing most the work for the NEX store?
There is a concern that focus on the NEX store as a revenue generator will detract from future content that woudl be available for subscribers.
Most the people who are angry about the NEX store could give a **** about the prices of the ****ing monocle, we weren't planning on buying any of that **** anyway so they could charge $1000 for the damned thing as far as we are concerned.
People are angry that actual functionality was removed from the game and they were forced to either use the buggy poorly optimized resource hogging excuse for walking in station that seemingly only exists as a show place for items from said nexus store or stare at a static picture of the ****ing door. This despite original assurances that the captain's quarters would be entirely optional and that people could choose whether to disembark from their ships or not.
So while we're busy constructing strawmen just how much is CCP paying you to shill for them?
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