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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
59
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Posted - 2012.09.26 15:50:00 -
[61] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Corina Jarr wrote:I said it 8B times in the old thread.
Because the Mack can tank enough to stop a profit based gank while still outmining the Skiff, the Skiff is useless (for mining). Any gank that could kill a slightly tanked Mack would be for fun, and so the Skiff would still be dead.
Perhaps the Skiff should be considered for a Gas Harvesting bonus.
I wouldn't be opposed to that, but then it starts down the old path of "One exhumer for each type of mining"
Though I believe the "fit rigs to mine ice or merx" was slapped together and poorly thought out. It was rushed, just like the entire patch.
Originally the barge balance was slated for winter, but it was quickly rushed out, probably because the miner crying had reached a fever pitch. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Project Wildfire
427
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Posted - 2012.09.26 15:59:00 -
[62] - Quote
The guy makes some good points.
Who exactly would be hurt by giving the Hulk more cargo? They see me trolling, they hating... |
Infinite Force
Hammer Of Light Covenant of the Phoenix Alliance
154
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Posted - 2012.09.26 16:20:00 -
[63] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:The guy makes some good points.
Who exactly would be hurt by giving the Hulk more cargo? /sarcasm on All those hauler toons in Orcas - because we all know the answer to all things mining is "use an Orca". /sarcasm off
Seriously, a max boosted hulk holds about 1.5 cycles. HROLT CEO Live Free; Die Proud
Hammer Mineral Compression - The only way to go! |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
59
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Posted - 2012.09.26 20:49:00 -
[64] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:The guy makes some good points.
Who exactly would be hurt by giving the Hulk more cargo?
I'd go further. I'd remove the Ore Bay entirely and adjust the stats to allow miners to have a reason to fit Expanders again. Miners could once again choose to increase cargo at expense of EHP.
Plus, loot would drop again, for gankers.
I'd love to see a Mackinaw expanded out to 40-50K, drop 50 blocks of ICE after a gank.
My plan would be:
Boost Hulk EHP to about 12K EHP (unfit), 33-40K EHP (tank fit) Reduce Mackinaw EHP to about 10K EHP (unfit) and 22-24K EHP (tank fit) Slightly reduce Skiff Yield to distinguish it from the Mackinaw.
Remove Ore Bays and resize standard cargo appropriately for their # of low slots. (Hulk could expand beyond current amount, but base size is significantly less...) Mackinaw I could see being expanded up to 40 or 50K with rigs/mods base amount significantly less.
Also, completely get rid of the stupid 'ice/mercoxit harvesting rigs'....seems tacked on and pointless.
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baltec1
Bat Country
2287
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Posted - 2012.09.26 20:59:00 -
[65] - Quote
Change the macks base tank to that of the hulks.
Thats all that needs to happen. |
Belshazzar Babylon
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
84
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Posted - 2012.09.27 01:43:00 -
[66] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Change the macks base tank to that of the hulks.
Thats all that needs to happen.
Yes to make the most popular mining ship ATM easier to gank should be at the top of CCPs list. Not the POS rework not the new Destroyers.
You would think the poor Mack had some kind of invulnerable force field the way people whine about this. Gankers still crying about some mythical right to a profitable gank.
This thread really should have been rolled into the previous threadnaught. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2291
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Posted - 2012.09.27 01:56:00 -
[67] - Quote
Belshazzar Babylon wrote:baltec1 wrote:Change the macks base tank to that of the hulks.
Thats all that needs to happen. Yes to make the most popular mining ship ATM easier to gank should be at the top of CCPs list. Not the POS rework not the new Destroyers. You would think the poor Mack had some kind of invulnerable force field the way people whine about this. Gankers still crying about some mythical right to a profitable gank. This thread really should have been rolled into the previous threadnaught.
Tell me. Whats the point of the skiff (an anti gank ship) if the mack has a tank that makes it unprofitable to attack? |
Lord Zim
1552
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Posted - 2012.09.27 01:59:00 -
[68] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Tell me. Whats the point of the skiff (an anti gank ship) if the mack has a tank that makes it unprofitable to attack? To be a safe and convenient ice bot mining ship, of course. Duh. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
307
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Posted - 2012.09.27 02:21:00 -
[69] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:baltec1 wrote:Tell me. Whats the point of the skiff (an anti gank ship) if the mack has a tank that makes it unprofitable to attack? To be a safe and convenient ice bot mining ship, of course. Duh. Even in that capacity it's still overshadowed by the mack. |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
86
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Posted - 2012.10.01 16:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
Excellent article posted here today at:
themittani.com
Eventually someone went out and started actually counting the highsec Exhumer population.
Yes, the Hulk is going extinct.
Miners will keep trying to justify the over-buffed Mackinaw, but just saying otherwise doesn't make it less true.
One size-fits-all Exhumer design is a sign that another iteration on the barge buff is necessary.
Swap Hulk and Mackinaw EHP - problem solved.
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baltec1
Bat Country
2315
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Posted - 2012.10.01 16:18:00 -
[71] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:
Swap Hulk and Mackinaw EHP - problem solved.
Then the hulk does the skiffs job.
Nerf the macks base tank to the hulks and let the skiff do its job. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
148
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Posted - 2012.10.01 17:50:00 -
[72] - Quote
The answer to all of this is reverting the hulk and mack EHP buffs. Goonwaffe is now recruiting feel free to message me in game for information about joining! |
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
888
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Posted - 2012.10.01 19:25:00 -
[73] - Quote
It was dumb to start fiddling around with the mining ships without taking any steps to address the wider issues around mining (boring, bot-friendly, one-dimensional, etc). A proper fix would have involved completely reworking the ways that production materials can be harvested and fitting the existing/new mining ships into the various new and existing roles accordingly. Instead we got ship stat tweaks to an activity so bare-bones and simplistic that there was always going to be one 'best' choice and, welp, here we are. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge ****.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006
~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever. |
Elinarien
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.10.01 19:45:00 -
[74] - Quote
The smart money will be on the mining barges. Why? I can pay for a tier 1 fitted procurer for 10m (no rigs though). A fitted retriever about 20. In the event of a gank they're cheap as chips replacements making profitable ganking redundant. |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
150
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Posted - 2012.10.01 20:09:00 -
[75] - Quote
I've got a smashing idea: why don't you guys shoot at people that shoot back? |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
240
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Posted - 2012.10.01 20:29:00 -
[76] - Quote
90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be. They chose to listen to the people who do mine. I'd say they got it right.
Macki - Low yields, high tank. You are only seeing them if you hunt miners in .5 and .6 because the Hulk tank won't handle Tier 3 BC ganks of one or 2.
Hulk - High yield but requires and Orca or Rorqual for support and has a low tank. Tank not really mattering because it can't be on the front line. It needs a fleet to intercept hostiles making it the ideal ship for Null mining or a .7 to 1.0 space mining tool.
Skiff- Hard tank, unique bonuses making it a great mining ship for very specific and time consuming jobs either in null or high sec. Actually being used, something it has never had the luxury of claiming. If I wanted to mine Ice in null sec, this would be my choice with maybe a frigate alt double or triple webbing it all the time.
Now that miners are in a better place, that was in fact your best option all along. I never lost a Hulk during the glory days of miner griefing. It was triple webbed any time it was out. Who am I to ruin gankers fun though if Miners couldn't figure that out on their own? |
baltec1
Bat Country
2316
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Posted - 2012.10.01 21:52:00 -
[77] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:I've got a smashing idea: why don't you guys shoot at people that shoot back?
They dont tend to come untanked or provide very much isk when they explode. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2316
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Posted - 2012.10.01 21:54:00 -
[78] - Quote
Ocih wrote:90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be. They chose to listen to the people who do mine. I'd say they got it right.
Macki - Low yields, high tank. You are only seeing them if you hunt miners in .5 and .6 because the Hulk tank won't handle Tier 3 BC ganks of one or 2.
Hulk - High yield but requires and Orca or Rorqual for support and has a low tank. Tank not really mattering because it can't be on the front line. It needs a fleet to intercept hostiles making it the ideal ship for Null mining or a .7 to 1.0 space mining tool.
Skiff- Hard tank, unique bonuses making it a great mining ship for very specific and time consuming jobs either in null or high sec. Actually being used, something it has never had the luxury of claiming. If I wanted to mine Ice in null sec, this would be my choice with maybe a frigate alt double or triple webbing it all the time.
Now that miners are in a better place, that was in fact your best option all along. I never lost a Hulk during the glory days of miner griefing. It was triple webbed any time it was out. Who am I to ruin gankers fun though if Miners couldn't figure that out on their own?
The problem is the mack is doing the skiffs job. |
Lord Zim
1563
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Posted - 2012.10.01 22:21:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ocih wrote:90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be. They chose to listen to the people who do mine. I'd say they got it right. I mine from time to time, and I'd rather suck on a shotgun than use a skiff or a hulk in hisec.
If I have 1 char, a skiff is overly tanked and under-performing, the mack requires attention once every eon, and the hulk requires attention once every few minutes.
If I have 2 or more chars, the skiff'll still underperform, the hulk will still require attention once every few minutes (but you can at least still use an orca to store ore in to reduce the number of trips to the station), or you can be non-dumb and use two or more macks and overall get more yield for less effort.
So, pray tell, why should I bother with anything other than the mack? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
ashley Eoner
61
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Posted - 2012.10.01 22:48:00 -
[80] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ocih wrote:90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be. They chose to listen to the people who do mine. I'd say they got it right. I mine from time to time, and I'd rather suck on a shotgun than use a skiff or a hulk in hisec. If I have 1 char, a skiff is overly tanked and under-performing, the mack requires attention once every eon, and the hulk requires attention once every few minutes. If I have 2 or more chars, the skiff'll still underperform, the hulk will still require attention once every few minutes (but you can at least still use an orca to store ore in to reduce the number of trips to the station), or you can be non-dumb and use two or more macks and overall get more yield for less effort. So, pray tell, why should I bother with anything other than the mack? Well since you're solo mining and the mack is well supposed to be for the solo miner I'd say mission accomplished. If you were running a fleet hulks would win out by a mile though.
Skiff's biggest problem lies in the mining laser being overly strong resulting in a lot of near empty roid cycles (lesser extent the mack suffers the same). Most HS areas are either mined out so you're only going to run the mack for an "eon" for one day before having to find another system with big roids since they will not replenish far enough to get more then one or two cycles.
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Lord Zim
1563
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Posted - 2012.10.01 23:02:00 -
[81] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:Well since you're solo mining and the mack is well supposed to be for the solo miner I'd say mission accomplished. If you were running a fleet hulks would win out by a mile though.
Skiff's biggest problem lies in the mining laser being overly strong resulting in a lot of near empty roid cycles (lesser extent the mack suffers the same). A lot of the HS areas are mined out so you're going to have to spend a lot of time finding a system with large roids to run your mack for an "eon". Of course that will only work for a few days at most before you run out of large roids. The replenishment won't be sufficient to allow you to keep pulling 2300 m3 of ore for long. Let's assume I have 1 pilot. I can expend a lot of energy to get 100% yield, but I lose a lot to travel/docking, or I can expend a little to get 90% yield, and dock up once every eon.
Let's assume I have 2 pilots. I can expend a lot of effort to get 200% yield, but I lose a lot to travelling/docking, or I can have 1 hulk and 1 orca to get a little over 100% and no travel time, or I can use 2 macks to get 180%, and lose some time once every eon to travel/docking.
Let's assume I have 3 pilots. 300%, lots of effort, lots of travel/docking time if 3 hulks, a little over 200% if I use 1 orca and 2 hulks, little to no yield lost due to the orca being docked, or 270% with 3 macks, and very little travel/dock time.
So, again, why should I ever use anything other than a mack? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2319
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Posted - 2012.10.01 23:06:00 -
[82] - Quote
ashley Eoner wrote:
Skiff's biggest problem lies in the mining laser being overly strong resulting in a lot of near empty roid cycles (lesser extent the mack suffers the same). A lot of the HS areas are mined out so you're going to have to spend a lot of time finding a system with large roids to run your mack for an "eon". Of course that will only work for a few days at most before you run out of large roids. The replenishment won't be sufficient to allow you to keep pulling +2100 m3 of ore for long.
No. The Skiffs biggest problem is that the mack is filling its role as the tanky ship. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
241
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Posted - 2012.10.01 23:28:00 -
[83] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: I mine from time to time, and I'd rather suck on a shotgun than use a skiff or a hulk in hisec.
If I have 1 char, a skiff is overly tanked and under-performing, the mack requires attention once every eon, and the hulk requires attention once every few minutes.
If I have 2 or more chars, the skiff'll still underperform, the hulk will still require attention once every few minutes (but you can at least still use an orca to store ore in to reduce the number of trips to the station), or you can be non-dumb and use two or more macks and overall get more yield for less effort.
So, pray tell, why should I bother with anything other than the mack?
Skiff isn't being used right now because nobody owns them. There weren't any being used so the fleets haven't updated and I doubt they will for a long time to come but a Skiff bonus is 200% and with a 66% reduction in cycle on Ice that's a fast 12 chunks of Ice. Using a Skiff you can actually Ninja mine Ice in null sec and tell the bots to stick theirs up their ass. Even if they give it to you the logistics of getting it to your POS in null makes it easier to just skiff mine for a few hrs with a fleet. |
Buzz Boolean
Bung Cheese Bandits
0
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Posted - 2012.10.02 02:20:00 -
[84] - Quote
Do whatever you want. My big brother, Urgg Boolean, and I own all three ships: enough for a fleet of each type. So, do what you want and we'll just fly whatever.
Having said that, I doubt seriuously that there will be any changes to mining barges any time soon.
The only tweak I want to see is the lock limit on the Mack raised to 5. Lock=4 was fine, even supurflouous, when it was an Ice miner. Now that it is the solo rock tub, it will benefit from 5 locks so we can keep our roid rotation on 4 locks and deal with rats on the 5th. |
Lord Zim
1563
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Posted - 2012.10.02 02:29:00 -
[85] - Quote
Ocih wrote:Skiff isn't being used right now because nobody owns them. There weren't any being used so the fleets haven't updated and I doubt they will for a long time to come but a Skiff bonus is 200% and with a 66% reduction in cycle on Ice that's a fast 12 chunks of Ice. Using a Skiff you can actually Ninja mine Ice in null sec and tell the bots to stick theirs up their ass. Even if they give it to you the logistics of getting it to your POS in null makes it easier to just skiff mine for a few hrs with a fleet. Except for the fact the 200% bonus isn't to ice mining, just ore mining, just like the duration bonus only applies to ice mining, not ore mining.
So, about that "90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be" statement ... Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2452
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Posted - 2012.10.02 02:33:00 -
[86] - Quote
Mining lasers should have a chance at backfiring and blowing up the mining vessel "A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
207
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Posted - 2012.10.02 03:06:00 -
[87] - Quote
Bart Starr wrote:
"Overall, Cargo space is the most highly valued trait in an Exhumer."
Its why, prior to Aug 8, 2/3 of all Exhumers (Hulks/Macks) were cargo fit. And why today, Macks/Retrievers are dominant.
Go ahead, dispute it so we can laugh at you.
Like many others, I'm going to call this whole thread on exhumer balance as baloney.
If you want to play SOLO and virtually AFK your mining experience then Mack might well be better than a Hulk, but flying solo and doing it AFK were never intended by CCP.
For those that ACTIVELY MINE in GROUPS, the HULK is BEST and for mine (pun intended), it always has been .
- If you're a miner who plays with himself, then laugh away. - If you're a miner who works for their stuff, they're the ones who will do the laughing.
No change needed. Period.
PS: And you know, it's quite funny hearing people talk about gank tanks bla bla when exhumers are in the mix. I'm not sure that Hulks (or ANY exhumer) was actually designed to be a target, let alone a "profitable venture" for a ganker. But, I suppose, it is Eve..... |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
241
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Posted - 2012.10.02 05:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Ocih wrote:Skiff isn't being used right now because nobody owns them. There weren't any being used so the fleets haven't updated and I doubt they will for a long time to come but a Skiff bonus is 200% and with a 66% reduction in cycle on Ice that's a fast 12 chunks of Ice. Using a Skiff you can actually Ninja mine Ice in null sec and tell the bots to stick theirs up their ass. Even if they give it to you the logistics of getting it to your POS in null makes it easier to just skiff mine for a few hrs with a fleet. Except for the fact the 200% bonus isn't to ice mining, just ore mining, just like the duration bonus only applies to ice mining, not ore mining. So, about that "90% of this thread is people who don't mine trying to tell CCP how mining should be" statement ...
About that 90% remark, it still holds true. I don't own a Skiff yet for the same reason most people don't. I can't confirm if the 200% bonus grants 2000 M3 per cycle or not with Ice harvesters on. (as per the way they identify cycle volume for Ice) but one thing I am sure of, my motives are in the favor of miners. Farming mail was never part of EVE for me.
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Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
111
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Posted - 2012.10.02 05:47:00 -
[89] - Quote
I like the miners as they are right now. If the op's suggested idea was implemented, then I would switch to the hulk and get an alt trained up in an orca and plex both accounts. As it is now I only have one account and I pay cash for it.
What I do not like about this is that I would have to spend some X hours every month mining just to plex both accounts. It would take some of the fun out of the game for me. Right now I do what I please when it pleases me with no outside pressure to have to earn X by Y time. Also once you begin to plex you become tied to the market value of plex.
All things that I would prefer to avoid if possible. I enjoy eve now and it would become more work than fun I think if I had to plex every month. I do enjoy fleeting up now when I do for the orca bonus. But mining is not why I play the game. If the hulk and the Mack switched ehp's mining would become more of the job to pay for eve for me. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
585
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Posted - 2012.10.02 06:19:00 -
[90] - Quote
Didn't read the whole thread but thought the OP was trying to be serious about this and not troll...
Quote:Miners only care about three things: cargo, yield, ehp. And not equally. After scanning thousands of hulks/macks over the years, I found:
-Cargo fits (about 60% of the time) -yield fits (about 30% of the time) -ehp fits (about 10% of the time)
From the old setups obviously. Ice is huge. Hence the huge cargo bay to put the ice in it. Yield fits were for hulks. Secondly, solo hulks or fleet hulks? Or even a hulk and an Orca? Because why would you have a cargo fit for a ship dumping into another ship? Why would you still?
Saying miners primarily are concerned with cargo is silly. Solo miners are. Ice miners are.
All CCP did was diversify. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha |
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