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Ademaro Imre
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:16:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 30/08/2011 20:22:04 http://opinion.financialpost.com/2011/08/26/lawrence-solomon-science-now-settled/
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jamesdelingpole/100102296/sun-causes-climate-change-shock/
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/46953
Not exactly a statement or quote from CERN, but that is basically the summary of of experiments held at CERN, which finally went on after CERN buckled under western government pressure to not conduct for almost a decade.
Basically, the cosmoclimatology theory goes this way - cosmic rays that are emitted from space, cause global warming, and global cooling because the rays trigger aerosols to create clouds (despite water vapor being a greenhouse gas, there has been no explanation, until now how clouds form). The sun's activity modulates how many rays reach the atmosphere and specifically how many reach above surfaces of the water, through the solar wind. More activity of the sun means more solar wind, fewer rays reach the Earth and less clouds reflecting and absorbing heat, and more heat in the earth. Less activity, more rays, more clouds, more cooling.
Correlations exist throughout history, going back to the creation of the earth, and mass extinction events. For instance, during the Little Ice Age, paintings and art have an unusually high number of cumulus clouds in the paintings compared to before and after the Little Ice Age, that can not be attributed to any artistic trend. Mass extinction events on Earth correspond to the Earths entry and exit from the Milky Ways's arms (The sun and Earth travel at a faster speed around the galaxy than the rotation of the spiral arms and many more cosmic rays in arms). The effect of cosmic rays can be seen in mineral and chemical ions found in rock whose formation can also correlate to the Sun's movement.
However, if you believe or want any more study at CERN, Al Gore thinks you are racist.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:21:00 -
[2]
Interesting. I'll be looking for some more info on this as it filters through the scientific community. Mind you, most of the steps you'd take to deal with global warming are still necessary to deal with the fossil fuel shortage. So don't expect energy ratings, recycling and renewable power generation to disappear.
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Bane Necran
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:30:00 -
[3]
Just the latest nail in the coffin for the man-made global warming theory. The big giveaway for me was discovering all the planets in our solar system are warming at the same rate the Earth is, which was a number of years ago now. Surely our pollution isn't causing the icecaps on Mars to melt at the same rate Earths are. It was brutal discussing the entire thing online for a very long time, so i'm glad to see more people cluing in lately. I think i even discussed it here once a year or two ago, and received the usual insults and ad hominem attacks.
There was also a recent study done by NASA showing another reason the theory is flawed.
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:31:00 -
[4]
The Sun's effect on the Earth is not new information. The Sun has a nifty cycle it goes through.
However, it is not the only thing affecting the climate on Earth, we are too. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Grimpak
Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:58:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs The Sun's effect on the Earth is not new information. The Sun has a nifty cycle it goes through.
However, it is not the only thing affecting the climate on Earth, we are too.
oh I don't doubt we are ****ing it up too.
the issue here is how much are we ****ing it up, compared with the other factors. my guess is "not that much". ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.30 21:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Bane Necran Just the latest nail in the coffin for the man-made global warming theory.
Nope. We have seen solar activity like what we have now before and it didn't result in what we see going on now.
The biggest solar worry is how badly our communications are going to be impacted over the next decade or two.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.30 21:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/46953
"...they have discovered that cosmic rays could have a role to play in climate by enhancing the production of potentially cloud-seeding aerosols." (emphasis added)
" Describing their findings in this week's Nature, the team has also found that our current understanding of the chemistry of these aerosols is inadequate and that manmade pollution could have a larger role in their formation than previously thought."
Don't jump to conclusions just yet.
None of the articles stated that cosmic rays account for 100% of global warming. For all we know, it just means that man-made global warming is just cooking us at a lower than expected rate.
Personally, I'd wait until NASA makes some official statement and/or that the cosmic ray data is solid enough that people add it to the models. Plus someone needs to replicate and/or verify the results of the first study.
As for the cosmic ray test being suppressed by the politicians, I have to remember that the Bush administration tried to gag NASA over global warming.
Messy way to conduct science, methinks.
----- CCP's NeX Pricing Tiers Affordable: One PLEX Mid: 3-4 PLEX Deluxe: Only for "flamboyantly rich capsuleers" Exceptional: ?? |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:00:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Sidus Isaacs The Sun's effect on the Earth is not new information. The Sun has a nifty cycle it goes through.
However, it is not the only thing affecting the climate on Earth, we are too.
oh I don't doubt we are ****ing it up too.
the issue here is how much are we ****ing it up, compared with the other factors. my guess is "not that much".
It is gonna be more soon if we do not do anything. Besides, thats not really the worst effect of how our society operates anyways. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Bane Necran
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:00:00 -
[9]
You're such a neophobe, baltec1
Pretty sure you were among the people i discussed this with before, and i'm not going to repeat myself. If the findings of NASA and CERN are so easily dismissed by you then there's nothing i can do.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bane Necran You're such a neophobe, baltec1
Pretty sure you were among the people i discussed this with before, and i'm not going to repeat myself. If the findings of NASA and CERN are so easily dismissed by you then there's nothing i can do.
Well its kinda hard to defunk an entire science when the very people who run an experiment say that their rusults are interesting but dont answer what the solar interaction means. Its very interesting stuff I'll give you that but we do have records that go back far enough to know that the current solar activies do not explain what is going on with the climate.
Undoubtdly the sun has an impact but there are many other facters too including us.
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Ademaro Imre
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.30 23:57:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 31/08/2011 00:06:27
Originally by: stoicfaux
As for the cosmic ray test being suppressed by the politicians, I have to remember that the Bush administration tried to gag NASA over global warming.
Messy way to conduct science, methinks.
The scientists haven't discounted the theory yet. And they only say that mankind may have a larger role in aerosol creation they they previously thought - but - they haven't said what they exactly think it is. Of course, this one series of experiments is not going to say that this is the only way clouds could form. We know exhaust stacks on ships can cause clouds to form because the pollutants can seed clouds - but - that will not explain cloud formation before ships, and places where ships have not sailed. There has been no explanation for the natural formation of clouds, and this is the only one that exists now.
A closer examination of the actual CLOUD research, also links the formation of clouds to sulfur ion concentrations above sea water. So - these researchers are not looking for a strict correlation between cosmic rays and cloud formation, because the cosmic rays have to first interact with cloud seeding materials. And marine life in the seawater that will cause large, very large concentrations of sulfur ions above the seawater which then interacts with cosmic rays can explain the rapid development of large cloud systems.
Many people are missing the huge implications of this research. This is the FIRST experiment (done outside of a university basement or mine shaft). These are the preliminary results! Imagine, if the same scrutiny and dismissive attitude was place on the original anthropogenic global warming theories on their first experiment. In the interests of science, will the IPCC demand more research into this theory? Of course not.
If you make a closer examination, you will see that the Bush administration has absolutely no involvement with NASA being sued for violating the array of Freedom of Information Acts. Its NASA, right now, today - that is hiding their climate research that has been conducted with public monies.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.08.31 06:43:00 -
[12]
It'd be easier to take you seriously if there wasn't such a huge disconnect between what you're saying "anthropogenic global warming theory is DEAAAAAAAAAD" and what the people *who actually conducted the research* are saying "this is interesting but only explains a small fraction of cloud formation".
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.31 10:40:00 -
[13]
Let me tell you about the time I woke up in the night and found my house was on fire and I was gonna call the fire brigade, but then I saw this guy running away and realised that he set my house on fire and I thought well it's not my fault my house is burning so I'm not gonna do anything about it.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
RedClaws
Amarr Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:30:00 -
[14]
That telegraph post is bloody ridiculous. "So called Man Made Global Warming" and such nonsense.
F*kin conservatives trying to brainwash people that don't know enough about to subject to realize they are being bull****ted by some blog.
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Jada Maroo
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:13:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jada Maroo on 31/08/2011 17:19:54
The cult of global warming is nothing but a replacement religion for those who have none. And governments are all too eager to funnel money to scientists who will tow the line so that new tax scams and carbon credit ponzi schemes can be imposed.
Anyone who wants proof of this fraud need only look to their spiritual leader, AlGore, whose carbon footprint is bigger than my entire neighborhood.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:17:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bane Necran Just the latest nail in the coffin for the man-made global warming theory. The big giveaway for me was discovering all the planets in our solar system are warming at the same rate the Earth is, which was a number of years ago now. Surely our pollution isn't causing the icecaps on Mars to melt at the same rate Earths are. It was brutal discussing the entire thing online for a very long time, so i'm glad to see more people cluing in lately. I think i even discussed it here once a year or two ago, and received the usual insults and ad hominem attacks.
There was also a recent study done by NASA showing another reason the theory is flawed.
Amen to that one. I got tired of the insults and childishness of the pro warming crowd and left. Felt like I was a holocaust denier. Ironically it was the viciousness of the attacks that confirmed it for me that AGW was and is a farce. Been saying it for years.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Riedle
Quote:
There was also a recent study done by NASA showing another reason the theory is flawed.
Amen to that one. I got tired of the insults and childishness of the pro warming crowd and left. Felt like I was a holocaust denier. Ironically it was the viciousness of the attacks that confirmed it for me that AGW was and is a farce. Been saying it for years.
No offense, but even though you've been saying it for years, I prefer to listen to these guys instead. I'll wait until NASA has something to say about the ramifications of the cosmic ray study.
It also doesn't help that the OP is misrepresenting the cosmic ray study's significance.
As for the planets are warming argument, check out item 40, or specifically this link. Also, the user comments are pretty interesting.
----- CCP's NeX Pricing Tiers Affordable: One PLEX Mid: 3-4 PLEX Deluxe: Only for "flamboyantly rich capsuleers" Exceptional: ?? |
Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.08.31 23:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Riedle on 31/08/2011 23:59:22
Quote:
No offense, but even though you've been saying it for years, I prefer to listen to these guys instead. I'll wait until NASA has something to say about the ramifications of the cosmic ray study.
It also doesn't help that the OP is misrepresenting the cosmic ray study's significance.
As for the planets are warming argument, check out item 40, or specifically this link. Also, the user comments are pretty interesting.
You can listen to whomever you like. I have done my research. I know the the alarmist approach has bastardized the science. it is appalling really. I'm not here to try to convince you or anyone else. I don't care what you think. It will all come out, it always does. Nature doesn't seem to be cooperating and no matter where they decide to cherry pick their temperatures to suit their laughably wrong models sooner or later people will wise up. They already are.
My comment was on the viciousness of people who don't think I should be able to think the way that I do or that there is something wrong with me that I do think this way.
That's all.
Oh, and just so you know - NASA's primary mission these days? Outreach to the Muslim world. LOL Pathetic what politics can do to science. And sad.
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.09.01 03:28:00 -
[19]
Selective reading, for the loss:
Quote: "This change is very likely too small to explain the effect on clouds reported by Svensmark," he says. "We must continue to explore other potential physical connections between cosmic rays and clouds."
Kirkby shares Pierce's caution. He argues that CLOUD's results "say nothing about cosmic-ray effects on clouds" because the aerosols produced in the experiment are far too small to seed clouds. But he adds that the collaboration will have some "interesting new results" to present later this year regarding the role of organic molecules in aerosol formation. "What is needed now to settle this question are precise, quantitative measurements," he adds.
Cosmic rays cause global warming my ass. It's both the skeptics like you and the alarmists who make it so hard to do good science in this world, because you are both too busy taking things out of context for us to discover anything actually important.
The conclusion was that cosmic rays *COULD CONTRIBUTE* to global warming, and that further investigation was needed to determine exactly what roles cosmic rays play in cloud formation.
Seriously, you are almost as bad as the media reporters who claim that we've somehow exceeded the universal constant by shining light through a cold, dense gas - Or that we've managed to achieve FTL transmission of information through quantum teleportation (and causality be damned). ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.01 08:40:00 -
[20]
Edited by: baltec1 on 01/09/2011 08:44:47
Originally by: Riedle Edited by: Riedle on 31/08/2011 23:59:22
Quote:
No offense, but even though you've been saying it for years, I prefer to listen to these guys instead. I'll wait until NASA has something to say about the ramifications of the cosmic ray study.
It also doesn't help that the OP is misrepresenting the cosmic ray study's significance.
As for the planets are warming argument, check out item 40, or specifically this link. Also, the user comments are pretty interesting.
You can listen to whomever you like. I have done my research. I know the the alarmist approach has bastardized the science. it is appalling really. I'm not here to try to convince you or anyone else. I don't care what you think. It will all come out, it always does. Nature doesn't seem to be cooperating and no matter where they decide to cherry pick their temperatures to suit their laughably wrong models sooner or later people will wise up. They already are.
My comment was on the viciousness of people who don't think I should be able to think the way that I do or that there is something wrong with me that I do think this way.
That's all.
Oh, and just so you know - NASA's primary mission these days? Outreach to the Muslim world. LOL Pathetic what politics can do to science. And sad.
The irony of this post is that the anti-climate change lobby does exactly this in the hope most people won't do the research into what they are saying. This very topic is a fine example of good science getting hijacked by people with an agenda.
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Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
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Posted - 2011.09.01 18:28:00 -
[21]
The Earth has gone through continental splits, been hit by meteors (or something which wiped out an entire species of big scary things), has been through ice ages, and has driven many of its own species' into extinction, without the help of humans. (See: dinosaurs, mammoths.) Despite all that, life has adapted and evolved. I find the notion that certain parts of the world becoming one or two degrees warmer will throw entire ecosystems off balance to be rather silly.
I'm not saying that it's not a good idea to practice things like conserving oil and recycling, but acting as though global warming is a SERIOUS ISSUE and a THREAT TO DRIVE ALL OF EARTH TO EXTINCTION is quite stupid, and strikes me as people blowing things way out of proportion. Regardless of how much we're contributing to it. -------- Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.01 18:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Roosterton The Earth has gone through continental splits, been hit by meteors (or something which wiped out an entire species of big scary things), has been through ice ages, and has driven many of its own species' into extinction, without the help of humans. (See: dinosaurs, mammoths.) Despite all that, life has adapted and evolved. I find the notion that certain parts of the world becoming one or two degrees warmer will throw entire ecosystems off balance to be rather silly.
I'm not saying that it's not a good idea to practice things like conserving oil and recycling, but acting as though global warming is a SERIOUS ISSUE and a THREAT TO DRIVE ALL OF EARTH TO EXTINCTION is quite stupid, and strikes me as people blowing things way out of proportion. Regardless of how much we're contributing to it.
A 10 degree C change in global temp would wipe out 90% of life on earth.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.09.01 20:55:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Roosterton The Earth has gone through continental splits, been hit by meteors (or something which wiped out an entire species of big scary things), has been through ice ages, and has driven many of its own species' into extinction, without the help of humans. (See: dinosaurs, mammoths.) Despite all that, life has adapted and evolved. I find the notion that certain parts of the world becoming one or two degrees warmer will throw entire ecosystems off balance to be rather silly.
It's not silly and has happened before.
Back in the Medieval Ages, Europe enjoyed a long warm spell that caused a population boom due to an extended growing season. Unfortunately, the Little Ice Age hit, shortened the growing season, and killed off a lot of people to starvation. Food riots in Europe caused social and government instability.
There was also the Year Without a Summer in which a volcano halfway around the world erupted and caused snow to fall in _June_ in New York and caused food riots in Europe. All from a 0.4 - 0.7 Celsius change in temperature.
Minor changes in temperature can cause severe weather fluctuations which can jeopardize farming.
My personal favorite Hypothetical Global Warming/Climate Change Doomsday Scenario:
Fresh water is heavier than salt water. So when the ice caps melt, the fresh water sinks to the bottom of the ocean which disrupts the Ocean Conveyor Belt. Currently the Conveyor Belt carries cold water to the equator and brings warm water back to the poles and acts like central air conditioning for the Earth. The Ocean Conveyor Belt creates Temperate weather which is good for growing crops.
However if the ice melts and the fresh water disrupts the Conveyor Belt, then the warm areas stay warm and get warmer, while the cold areas stay cold and get colder. Instead of having a nice Temperate zone to grow crops in, we wind up with areas that are either too hot or too cold to grow food. Plus, without the temperate zone, the hot and cold areas come into direct contact which creates really nasty, high energy weather (aka storms.)
Again, it's just a hypothetical scenario. We just don't know enough to say for sure what effects and have severe those effects would be from even minor climate changes. But we do know that even small, natural climate changes can have a significant impact on humanity.
If climate change/global warming does disrupt the global food supply, it may not be enough to cause human extinction, but a planet full of starving, desperate people and armies with machine guns and nukes makes for a potentially bad situation. The lack of a reliable food supply can knock modern, hyper-specialized, Just-in-Time supply chain, civilization back into a pre-industrial dark age.
----- CCP's NeX Pricing Tiers Affordable: One PLEX Mid: 3-4 PLEX Deluxe: Only for "flamboyantly rich capsuleers" Exceptional: ?? |
Rico Lah
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Posted - 2011.09.02 09:49:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rico Lah on 02/09/2011 09:49:15 This comic sums up my position on this matter pretty well. Although no one has proved that we're doing a whole lot on the global scale yet to my satisfaction. [More Research Required] But yeah, the planet's going to survive regardless. The thing everyone can't face is their own mortality imo.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.02 11:36:00 -
[25]
Run away run away!
The sky is falling for nigh on 20 years now! lol
oh yeah, but it hasn't even been warming for the past 10
oops
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Pantload
Gallente Handsome Millionaire Playboys Flatline.
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Posted - 2011.09.02 13:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: stoicfaux
My personal favorite Hypothetical Global Warming/Climate Change Doomsday Scenario:
Fresh water is heavier than salt water...
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that salt water is more dense than fresh water. Salt water will sink in fresh water.
TUG: The Underpants Gnomes. Buy Corps here
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.09.02 13:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Pantload
Originally by: stoicfaux
My personal favorite Hypothetical Global Warming/Climate Change Doomsday Scenario:
Fresh water is heavier than salt water...
I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that salt water is more dense than fresh water. Salt water will sink in fresh water.
Doh! You're right. Instead the sinking disruptive water is caused by increased salinity at the surface and increased sea ice.
Thermohaline circulation and fresh water
Again, it's just a theory, and probably not likely to happen.
----- CCP's NeX Pricing Tiers Affordable: One PLEX Mid: 3-4 PLEX Deluxe: Only for "flamboyantly rich capsuleers" Exceptional: ?? |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.02 14:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Riedle Run away run away!
The sky is falling for nigh on 20 years now! lol
oh yeah, but it hasn't even been warming for the past 10
oops
You need to look at the last 200000 years to get the trend. The last 300ish years you will find a very large spike (in scientific terms). In the last 10 years we have seen record after record broken all over the planet but it is not evenly spread. For example the largest rises are at the poles while some places have seen a cooling trend because of global warming inpacting wind currents. Its a complicated matter and so easily miss-interpreted by people who don't want it to be true and people who make genuine mistakes.
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Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
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Posted - 2011.09.02 19:11:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Nerath Naaris on 02/09/2011 19:12:05 Edited by: Nerath Naaris on 02/09/2011 19:11:33
Originally by: stoicfaux
My personal favorite Hypothetical Global Warming/Climate Change Doomsday Scenario:
Fresh water is heavier than salt water. So when the ice caps melt, the fresh water sinks to the bottom of the ocean which disrupts the Ocean Conveyor Belt. Currently the Conveyor Belt carries cold water to the equator and brings warm water back to the poles and acts like central air conditioning for the Earth. The Ocean Conveyor Belt creates Temperate weather which is good for growing crops.
However if the ice melts and the fresh water disrupts the Conveyor Belt, then the warm areas stay warm and get warmer, while the cold areas stay cold and get colder. Instead of having a nice Temperate zone to grow crops in, we wind up with areas that are either too hot or too cold to grow food. Plus, without the temperate zone, the hot and cold areas come into direct contact which creates really nasty, high energy weather (aka storms.)
Again, it's just a hypothetical scenario. We just don't know enough to say for sure what effects and have severe those effects would be from even minor climate changes. But we do know that even small, natural climate changes can have a significant impact on humanity.
Actually, this not purely hypothetical since something like this supposedly happened at the end of the last Ice Age, when a gigantic freshwater lake from what remains today as the Great Lakes region in northern America broke through into the Atlantic ocean.
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Haxfar Portlaind
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Posted - 2011.09.02 19:52:00 -
[30]
One thing people tend to forget on the "whether CO2 causes global warming or not", is that the increase in CO2 is damaging to sea life that use calcium as a way to protect themselves. With the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere, there oceans absorbs more. And when Acoans start absorbing more CO2 than usual, its pH-value goes down.
Just something to consider, but hey, we should only worry for the warming, eh?
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Nth Ares
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Posted - 2011.09.03 07:35:00 -
[31]
The problem with the global warming as a topic is that people can't seem to discuss it without getting religious about it. One side insists that man is going to make itself extinct in a few years unless we all "go green", the other refuses to believe that pollution has any effect on the Earth. These are both highly speculative and unproven beliefs, and I seriously wonder how much it has to do with the strength/weakness of the science versus how much each side just hates the "kind" of people they see on the other side.
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Ademaro Imre
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.09.03 22:01:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Taedrin
Cosmic rays cause global warming my ass. It's both the skeptics like you and the alarmists who make it so hard to do good science in this world, because you are both too busy taking things out of context for us to discover anything actually important.
The conclusion was that cosmic rays *COULD CONTRIBUTE* to global warming, and that further investigation was needed to determine exactly what roles cosmic rays play in cloud formation.
Seriously, you are almost as bad as the media reporters who claim that we've somehow exceeded the universal constant by shining light through a cold, dense gas - Or that we've managed to achieve FTL transmission of information through quantum teleportation (and causality be damned).
So - in order to do good science, you want these experiments stopped? When they only completed testing on the smallest particle sizes and have not even approached the end of the 2-4 year study?
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.03 22:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Riedle Run away run away!
The sky is falling for nigh on 20 years now! lol
oh yeah, but it hasn't even been warming for the past 10
oops
You need to look at the last 200000 years to get the trend. The last 300ish years you will find a very large spike (in scientific terms). In the last 10 years we have seen record after record broken all over the planet but it is not evenly spread. For example the largest rises are at the poles while some places have seen a cooling trend because of global warming inpacting wind currents. Its a complicated matter and so easily miss-interpreted by people who don't want it to be true and people who make genuine mistakes.
Exactly. Look at the Mann Hockey stick as proof to how badly some people want to believe. A fellow Canuck disproved it. (or exposed it if you prefer)
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.09.04 01:08:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Originally by: Taedrin
Cosmic rays cause global warming my ass. It's both the skeptics like you and the alarmists who make it so hard to do good science in this world, because you are both too busy taking things out of context for us to discover anything actually important.
The conclusion was that cosmic rays *COULD CONTRIBUTE* to global warming, and that further investigation was needed to determine exactly what roles cosmic rays play in cloud formation.
Seriously, you are almost as bad as the media reporters who claim that we've somehow exceeded the universal constant by shining light through a cold, dense gas - Or that we've managed to achieve FTL transmission of information through quantum teleportation (and causality be damned).
So - in order to do good science, you want these experiments stopped? When they only completed testing on the smallest particle sizes and have not even approached the end of the 2-4 year study?
What part of "further investigation [is] needed to determine exactly what roles cosmic rays play in cloud formation" don't you understand?
On the contrary, I am most wholeheartidly in favor of all climate change research, whether or not the evidence such research produces implies humans cause global warming or not. In fact I would be ECSTATIC if human activities were not the cause of global warming - or even if they were only a minor contribution. This would mean that we could continue doing such things as use air conditioning, use computers, drive cars, own houses, etc etc...
Unfortunately the majority of the evidence points towards humans being a major contributor to global climate change. A lot of the experiments which DO conclude otherwise are done in very unscientific ways. For example: evading rigorous peer review by publishing in a scientific journal which has nothing to do with weather or climate, and instead publishing it in a journal about space photography which lacks the proper social network needed to apply a rigorous peer review for such a topic.
Believe you me, I hope these people would continue their research. I just wish people would stop taking the SLIGHTEST bit of evidence and trapiezing it around as infallible proof. Scientists spent a LOOONNNGG time collecting evidence before they concluded that humans *probably* cause global climate change. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.04 07:28:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Riedle
Exactly. Look at the Mann Hockey stick as proof to how badly some people want to believe. A fellow Canuck disproved it. (or exposed it if you prefer)
Meanwhile climate data gathered via ice cores, satalite data, weather stations from across the globe and even hundreds of years worth of data collected by the royal navy from around the worlds oceans show that we are warming up and the chemical composition of the atmosphere is changing.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.04 11:56:00 -
[36]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Riedle
Exactly. Look at the Mann Hockey stick as proof to how badly some people want to believe. A fellow Canuck disproved it. (or exposed it if you prefer)
Meanwhile climate data gathered via ice cores, satalite data, weather stations from across the globe and even hundreds of years worth of data collected by the royal navy from around the worlds oceans show that we are warming up and the chemical composition of the atmosphere is changing.
Right, so you are a believer. Thought so. The whole discreditation of the Mann hockey stick, if you even know what that is, was that the warming we have experienced is nothing out of the ordinary at all. Neither was the warming in the 1940's or the cooling in the 1970's or the cooling of the 2000's for that matter.
The midieval warming period was much warmer that it is now. Kind of hard to blame that on the ol' SUV
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.04 14:27:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Riedle
Right, so you are a believer. Thought so. The whole discreditation of the Mann hockey stick, if you even know what that is, was that the warming we have experienced is nothing out of the ordinary at all. Neither was the warming in the 1940's or the cooling in the 1970's or the cooling of the 2000's for that matter.
The midieval warming period was much warmer that it is now. Kind of hard to blame that on the ol' SUV
But it is warmer than in the medieval warming period...
The oceans are also more acidic, ice shelves are much much smaller and desertification is increasing.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.04 20:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Riedle
Right, so you are a believer. Thought so. The whole discreditation of the Mann hockey stick, if you even know what that is, was that the warming we have experienced is nothing out of the ordinary at all. Neither was the warming in the 1940's or the cooling in the 1970's or the cooling of the 2000's for that matter.
The midieval warming period was much warmer that it is now. Kind of hard to blame that on the ol' SUV
But it is warmer than in the medieval warming period...
The oceans are also more acidic, ice shelves are much much smaller and desertification is increasing.
Of course, we do not know is the MWP was warmer than it is today or not. We will never know for sure. Some people think it was warmer some people think it was colder. However, the important part to acknowledge is that it got warmer and then colder all by itself with little to no influence from man. It always has it always will.
What more reasonable people are saying now is that the man may or may not be responsible for Global Warming, (now conveniently changed to 'climate change'). This is for many reasons that I will summarize into a list for you as I don't intend to waste my time explaining it all for you as I have done for many others so many times.
Carbon Dioxide is a very minor Global warming gas. Carbon Dioxide is not a pollutant. The Sun is a much larger driver of climate change. particulate matter in the atmosphere is a larger driver of climate change Carbon dioxide is necessary for plant growth we cannot measure the premodern era temperatures accurately. The 'computer models' purported to simulate and forecast global temperatures have turned out to be laughably wrong.
etc etc
there are many more but I am short on time and have to leave
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.05 08:44:00 -
[39]
Edited by: baltec1 on 05/09/2011 08:45:31
Originally by: Riedle
Of course, we do not know is the MWP was warmer than it is today or not. We will never know for sure.
We have very accurate temperature data going back 600,000 years thanks to ice cores.
Originally by: Riedle
Carbon Dioxide is a very minor Global warming gas.
True but we are producing vast quatities of it
Originally by: Riedle
Carbon Dioxide is not a pollutant.
It is when you produce too much of it. Not only is it a greenhouse gas but when it disolves in water it becomes acidic which is harmfull to sea life and also causes faster erosion in rock such as limestone.
Originally by: Riedle
The Sun is a much larger driver of climate change.
All evidence says that it is not the main driving force and if it was, why is the planet warming while the sun is cooling?
Originally by: Riedle particulate matter in the atmosphere is a larger driver of climate change
If this were true we would be seeing a gradual cooling of global temperatures not warming.
Originally by: Riedle Carbon dioxide is necessary for plant growth
This is not as true as you would think. Yes they need it but too much casuses issues and they can only absorb so much.
Originally by: Riedle we cannot measure the premodern era temperatures accurately.
Yes we can. We have accurate tempeature and atmospheric data going back 600,000 years thanks to ice cores and geological records (although nowhere near as good) give a good idea of temperature going back over a billion years.
Originally by: Riedle The 'computer models' purported to simulate and forecast global temperatures have turned out to be laughably wrong.
Computer simulations are very accurate when it comes to global temperatures and have made several predictions on volcanic impacts upon global temperatures with a 100% success record and to date, they have predicted everything correctly. They only have issues with local weather preditions due to the complicated way weather interacts with itself and sea/land masses.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.05 11:47:00 -
[40]
Quote: We have very accurate temperature data going back 600,000 years thanks to ice cores.
How would we even know that? We can try and extrapolate temperatures by proxy but we cannot even directly measure them obviously so the accurate records are guesses about generalities.
Quote: True but we are producing vast quatities of it
It is a bit player in the atmosphere.
Quote: All evidence says that it is not the main driving force and if it was, why is the planet warming while the sun is cooling?
Well obviously you never read the article in the OP. Read that and try again. If you are such an admirer of science why do you even refuse to read opposing theories? Oh that's right - it's a belief system for you.
Quote: If this were true we would be seeing a gradual cooling of global temperatures not warming.
uhh, no. We are emitting less particulate matter now than we were due to much better methods of using coal, for example to power our electrical plants. The pollution per kilowatt has come down quite a lot.
Quote: This is not as true as you would think. Yes they need it but too much casuses issues and they can only absorb so much.
Is that right? lol
Quote: Yes we can. We have accurate tempeature and atmospheric data going back 600,000 years thanks to ice cores and geological records (although nowhere near as good) give a good idea of temperature going back over a billion years.
We have a grasp on the general thanks to ice cores and geological data. To combine that with 'accurate' 20th century records is a fools errand.
Quote: Computer simulations are very accurate when it comes to global temperatures and have made several predictions on volcanic impacts upon global temperatures with a 100% success record and to date, they have predicted everything correctly. They only have issues with local weather preditions due to the complicated way weather interacts with itself and sea/land masses.
Riiight... lol I was in the AGW game earlier than you I guess.
Here is a good starting place for you if you are really interested in what is going on
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.05 14:28:00 -
[41]
Edited by: baltec1 on 05/09/2011 14:30:03
Originally by: Riedle
How would we even know that? We can try and extrapolate temperatures by proxy but we cannot even directly measure them obviously so the accurate records are guesses about generalities.
Yes we can see what temperature it was. You see, when the ice is formed it traps air making in effect a time capsule of the atmosphere. Now the air has a different chemical makeup depending upon the temperature. Scientists can measure the levels of two types of oxygen to get an exact temperature level at the time the snow was compacted into ice.
Originally by: Riedle
It is a bit player in the atmosphere.
It is the primary greenhouse gas the keeps the Earth warm
Originally by: Riedle
Well obviously you never read the article in the OP. Read that and try again. If you are such an admirer of science why do you even refuse to read opposing theories? Oh that's right - it's a belief system for you.
I think you need to go read the third link again.
Originally by: Riedle
uhh, no. We are emitting less particulate matter now than we were due to much better methods of using coal, for example to power our electrical plants. The pollution per kilowatt has come down quite a lot.
Which has resulted in higher temperatures across europe as less partical matter is released. Also after 9/11 all air traffic was grounded across US airspace. This resulted in higher temperatures across the continent. If global dimming due to partical ejection into the antmosphere was indeed a more powerfull force then we would be seeing a cooling trend not a warming.
Originally by: Riedle
Is that right? lol
Yes, you learn this in basic biology
Originally by: Riedle
We have a grasp on the general thanks to ice cores and geological data. To combine that with 'accurate' 20th century records is a fools errand.
see first reply
Originally by: Riedle
Riiight... lol I was in the AGW game earlier than you I guess.
You mean back when satalite data was giving the wrong reading due to a misscalculation to include orbit decay? Yea they fixed that in the late 70s.
I sujest you go read up on the climate impact predictions report on the Mount Pinatubo eruption made by climate models.
Also, thanks for the link but I like to get my info from scientific papers rather than blogs on the internet and badly biased "news" reports.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.05 15:00:00 -
[42]
Quote: Yes we can see what temperature it was. You see, when the ice is formed it traps air making in effect a time capsule of the atmosphere. Now the air has a different chemical makeup depending upon the temperature. Scientists can measure the levels of two types of oxygen to get an exact temperature level at the time the snow was compacted into ice.
Right, they take an indirect data source and guestimate what the temperature was. They have no way to take a direct temperature reading like we have had in the 20th century. Two very different methods used to describe the same thing should never be used on the same graph. basic science 101.
Quote: It is the primary greenhouse gas the keeps the Earth warm
Notsureifserious... If so you have A LOT of work to do my friend. Water vapour plays a MUCH larger role and that is just the gasses. Cloud cover makes up an eve larger role than gasses.
Quote: Which has resulted in higher temperatures across europe as less partical matter is released. Also after 9/11 all air traffic was grounded across US airspace. This resulted in higher temperatures across the continent. If global dimming due to partical ejection into the antmosphere was indeed a more powerfull force then we would be seeing a cooling trend not a warming.
Umm... this suggests exactly what I have been saying. There was MUCH more particulate matter in the atmosphere from anthopenic sources in the 1970's than today. In the 1970's it was cooler than today. This suggests that particulate matter in the atmosphere plays a much larger role in climate than does c02. lol
Quote: see first reply
see first response
Quote: Also, thanks for the link but I like to get my info from scientific papers rather than blogs on the internet and badly biased "news" reports
A true believer! lol That 'blog' is run by Dr. Roy Spencer. he happens to RUN the satellites that you pretend to know so much about.
lol
FAIL
you keep believing I and others will keep reading the real science.
lols
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.05 16:05:00 -
[43]
Edited by: baltec1 on 05/09/2011 16:06:58 Edited by: baltec1 on 05/09/2011 16:05:15
Originally by: Riedle
Quote: Yes we can see what temperature it was. You see, when the ice is formed it traps air making in effect a time capsule of the atmosphere. Now the air has a different chemical makeup depending upon the temperature. Scientists can measure the levels of two types of oxygen to get an exact temperature level at the time the snow was compacted into ice.
Right, they take an indirect data source and guestimate what the temperature was. They have no way to take a direct temperature reading like we have had in the 20th century. Two very different methods used to describe the same thing should never be used on the same graph. basic science 101.
Wrong again. You get the exact temperature readings because the levels of oxygen 18 are directly impacted by temperature.
As for the CO2 comments, please go look up the impact large amounts of CO2 have has on venus.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.05 21:44:00 -
[44]
Quote: Wrong again. You get the exact temperature readings because the levels of oxygen 18 are directly impacted by temperature.
k, what part are you not getting? They can look at proxies - in this case as you say with oxygen 18 and make inferences about what the temperatires may have been to produce that but they are guestimates and are not direct measurements. This is not a difficult assertion to accept unless it impacts a belief system you are uncomfortable in accepting.
Quote: As for the CO2 comments, please go look up the impact large amounts of CO2 have has on venus.
Thanks for proving my point. Exactly how many people live on Venus?
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.05 22:41:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Riedle
k, what part are you not getting? They can look at proxies - in this case as you say with oxygen 18 and make inferences about what the temperatires may have been to produce that but they are guestimates and are not direct measurements. This is not a difficult assertion to accept unless it impacts a belief system you are uncomfortable in accepting.
It is you who is not getting it. Oxygen 18 levels are directly impacted by temperature. Therefor if we know how much oxygen 18 there is we know just warm or cold the climate is. The chemestry does not change.
Originally by: Riedle
Thanks for proving my point. Exactly how many people live on Venus?
No you missed the point I was making entirely. Because of CO2 the temperature on venus is hot enough to melt lead.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.06 16:22:00 -
[46]
Quote: It is you who is not getting it. Oxygen 18 levels are directly impacted by temperature. Therefor if we know how much oxygen 18 there is we know just warm or cold the climate is. The chemestry does not change.
Nope, sorry. They look at Oxygen 18 as a proxy to estimate precipitation temperature to then extrapolate the atmospheric temperature. It is a guestimate. At the end of the day, a totally different method than direct measurement of the temperature. They should not be used side by side in a graph using these two very different methods. Simple.
Quote: No you missed the point I was making entirely. Because of CO2 the temperature on venus is hot enough to melt lead. Itis an example of how powerfull it can be in response to your rather silly claims that it is a reletivly harmless gas without the power to impact the planet.
How much more c02 is on Venus compared to Earth? lol Oh and how much closer is Venus to the Sun than the Earth? lols
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.06 21:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Riedle
Nope, sorry. They look at Oxygen 18 as a proxy to estimate precipitation temperature to then extrapolate the atmospheric temperature. It is a guestimate. At the end of the day, a totally different method than direct measurement of the temperature. They should not be used side by side in a graph using these two very different methods. Simple.
They can be used side by side in a graph due to the fact they are very accuratly measured and hold true. There is a direct impact on the amount of oxygen 18 and temperature which can be accuratly measured. Of corse we havent even added in the results of ice crystals, pollon, chemical composition of the air ect which all can be used. Put it all together and we can get a very good idea of what was going on at the time the ice formed.
Originally by: Riedle
How much more c02 is on Venus compared to Earth? lol Oh and how much closer is Venus to the Sun than the Earth? lols
It was volcanic activity not the sun that caused the runaway warming on venus. You should look up these things before putting your foot in it.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.06 22:35:00 -
[48]
Edited by: baltec1 on 06/09/2011 22:34:59 bah double post
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.07 12:46:00 -
[49]
Quote: It was volcanic activity not the sun that caused the runaway warming on venus and the proxcimity of the sun should infact act as a scrubber and remove CO2. You should look up these things before putting your foot in it.
my foot in it? lol Just giving you an education, son
So your contention now is that it is hot on Venus because of it's atmopheric conditions and not due to it's proximity to the sun?
yikes. ok...
Then I guess it's only cold on Neptune cause there ain't enough c02 in it's atmosphere? How am I doing?
:)
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jason hill
Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.09.07 15:22:00 -
[50]
my 2 cents .. I`m not in denial that climate change is a real phenomina. but dont we all live in a natural state of climate change anyway ? summer /winter ...the thing that strikes me is that if one looks at medeival history one would see that this is a natural occurance in the uk in medival times the uk used to grow grapes in the southern part of england ...we still cannot do this to this day ..because of climate change .. we werent pumping out c02 then then again in a few hundred years later the thames freezed over... so much so that peeps could skate on it ...again c02 emissions ? i think not . if we are living through a time of great uncertancy then why is that two of the planets biggest polluters (india &china ) allowed to ignore global agreements yet the rest of us in the western hemishere have to abide by all these carbon taxes to pay for all the alledged damage that these countries are commiting in the name of climate change .
im sorry ...but i think that its just one big massive band wagon that certain peeps in the scientific community are jumping on to keep thier grants going and the poloticians use to extort even more money in various forms of taxes form the masses ... my 2 cents
destroy everything you touch |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.07 16:54:00 -
[51]
Edited by: baltec1 on 07/09/2011 16:59:37
Originally by: Riedle
my foot in it? lol Just giving you an education, son
So your contention now is that it is hot on Venus because of it's atmopheric conditions and not due to it's proximity to the sun?
yikes. ok...
Then I guess it's only cold on Neptune cause there ain't enough c02 in it's atmosphere? How am I doing?
:)
Badly.
Lets start with Mercury. Now the day side is 430¦C which very very hot. At night temperatures drop to -163 ¦C. A hell hole with no atmosphere, this is what the sun can do at this orbit.
The average temperature on Venus is 460¦C. Planet wide both day and night. This means the the planet second furthest from the sun is hotter than the closest and take in that word. The average temperature both day and night. It is impossible for the sun to be the reason for venus being what it is.
Not only this, but the atmosphere is increadably reflective so the energy of the sun is also diminished as a large chunk is reflected back into space. Venus is a fine example of catastrophic golbal warming caused by c02.
Originally by: jason hill in the uk in medival times the uk used to grow grapes in the southern part of england ...we still cannot do this to this day ..because of climate change
Just to point out. There are scottish vineyards.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.07 18:47:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Riedle on 07/09/2011 18:47:22 Mercury doesnÆt even have an atmosphere for all intents and purposes. ItÆs front side is exposed to the sun and the back side is practically exposed to the cold vacuum of space. See if you actually knew what it is you are talking about you would know this.
Here are some more facts for you CO2 makes up 0.0360% of the EarthÆs atmosphere Co2 makes up 96.5 % of VenusÆ atmosphere û no one is saying anything of the sort is going to happen here on Earth so while you are correct that Venus holds it heat in very well itÆs because almost the whole atmosphere on Venus is pure Co2 û lol Co2 in the EarthÆs atmosphere is, by contrast, a trace gas. Even the worst case scenario of increases will barely move this if at all.
So you comparing the two is an exercise for the brain dead.
Sorry but I am not brain dead so you are going to have to try harder.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.09.07 21:06:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Riedle Edited by: Riedle on 07/09/2011 18:47:22 Mercury doesnÆt even have an atmosphere for all intents and purposes. ItÆs front side is exposed to the sun and the back side is practically exposed to the cold vacuum of space. See if you actually knew what it is you are talking about you would know this.
Here are some more facts for you CO2 makes up 0.0360% of the EarthÆs atmosphere Co2 makes up 96.5 % of VenusÆ atmosphere û no one is saying anything of the sort is going to happen here on Earth so while you are correct that Venus holds it heat in very well itÆs because almost the whole atmosphere on Venus is pure Co2 û lol Co2 in the EarthÆs atmosphere is, by contrast, a trace gas. Even the worst case scenario of increases will barely move this if at all.
So you comparing the two is an exercise for the brain dead.
Sorry but I am not brain dead so you are going to have to try harder.
According to you c02 is a harmless gas and the sun the the real powerhouse. Granted I gave you the most extream example but untill now, you didn't think co2 was a factor even on venus. I am also not sure what you are trying to say about Mercury.
It is quite clear you do not have a great grasp on the science or many of the facts on this subject.
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Brisco County
The Shadow Plague Gentlemen's Agreement
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Posted - 2011.09.08 05:44:00 -
[54]
The problem with global warming as a topic is that there are scientific "facts" on both sides of the discussion, leading people to basically pick whichever argument reinforces their beliefs, not necessarily picking the one that puts forth a sounder argument.
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Riedle
Minmatar Paradox Collective
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Posted - 2011.09.08 12:16:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Riedle on 08/09/2011 12:18:35 Edited by: Riedle on 08/09/2011 12:17:44
Quote: According to you c02 is a harmless gas and the sun the the real powerhouse. Granted I gave you the most extream example but untill now, you didn't think co2 was a factor even on venus. I am also not sure what you are trying to say about Mercury.
Co2 is quite clearly a harmless gas on the earth precisely because it's concentration is 0.036% of the atmosphere. Also, plants need it to respirate. All the elements ever discovered by man are toxic in the right concentration.
We are talking about global warming on earth, right? That you have to travel to another planet with no humans on it to say how bad global warming is says all that needs to be said really.
I will repeat it for you: Co2 on the earth is a minor, bit player on the Global warming scene. ItÆs just a fact. Water vapour and cloud cover are much, much more important.
This CERN article is talking about cloud cover for example. Dr. Roy Spencer, an accredited Climatologist who used to be in charge of the NASA satellites who measure the earthÆs temperature says the same thing and has in fact written a book in the very subject under the hypothesis that the AGW computer æmodelsÆ that have been proven to be so utterly, consistently incorrect have been incorrect precisely because the effect of C02 was over-estimated and the effect of the changes in average cloud cover so far, pretty much ignored.
This CERN study appears to back up his hypothesis even as it does so apologetically. This is how science works.
You have æfaithÆ in AGW caused by Co2 and I understand why this bothers you so. But if you just follow the science you will come to see that AGW is a tempest in a tea pot and it has a huge opportunity cost in that we could have better spent our environmental efforts on truly important things like preventing over fishing, bottom trawling on the oceans, creating and protecting more wildlife corridors, deforestation in poor countries, toxic pollution in our air, water and soil etc etc..
So I understant why you prefer to obfuscate but it doesn't do your 'argument' any favours. You are arguiing from a position of faith and I am just following the facts wherever they take me.
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durpa Taredi
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Posted - 2011.09.09 16:45:00 -
[56]
Oh God the stupid it burns.
Why does everyone think they are an expert on this and know something that the scientists who's job it is to study this have missed. People claiming to have 'researched' the topic, people pretending that its big news that water vapour accounts for most of the greenhouse effect. People claiming that because CO2 makes up a small proportion of the atmosphere it cant possibly have an effect, I pray to God that person doesn't have a job as a pharmacist.
And most of all people that link to physicsworld thinking it proves once and for all that it proves that the idea that burning billions of tons of fossil fuels and realising into the atmosphere can't possibly have bad effects without reading the link.
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