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Lancashirian
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:13:00 -
[1]
Ok, so even though it has 7 low slots, I've heard about a shield tanked machariel for pcs that is by far better than an armored version. Could anyone shed some light on this potential setup? |
Wolfic
Minmatar Risk Breakers Lizard Kings
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:35:00 -
[2]
[Machariel, Missions] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L [empty high slot]
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
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Puss in Boots
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:03:00 -
[3]
[Machariel, Machariel]
Signal Amplifier II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Gist A-Type 100MN Afterburner Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L Drone Link Augmentor I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Rig how you like. It came with the setup. I lose 40dps or so with out the 4th gyro but gain 30km locking range. The large booster offers plenty of tank.
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Navaris Dreadblade
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:04:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/08/2011 19:06:48 I prefer more damage out.
[Machariel] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Core X-Type 100mn Afterburner
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I [empty rig slot]
@poster above me: I can't imagine needing more locking range, do you find it's actually useful?
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Lancashirian
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:09:00 -
[5]
(C. Montgomery Burns Fingers) Excellent...
Thank you, folks. |
Puss in Boots
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Posted - 2011.08.31 22:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Puss in Boots on 31/08/2011 22:00:41
Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 31/08/2011 19:06:48 I prefer more damage out.
[Machariel] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Core X-Type 100mn Afterburner
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L [empty high slot]
Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I [empty rig slot]
@poster above me: I can't imagine needing more locking range, do you find it's actually useful?
Yes. With maxed gunnery skills, I can hit all to 100km with standard phased plasma. It's most effective in AE4 bonus room. 900dps vs 845dps (no drones). The 23km of extra range comes in handy more than the eft warriored 55dps. Plus, I believe it helps against damps a bit which I run into.
Also, i'd not put shield rigs on a mach, the low sig is one of the advantages to using it. Shield rigs just ruins it.
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.08.31 23:02:00 -
[7]
[Machariel, Machariel 2] Large Armor Repairer II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II
100MN Afterburner II Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Sensor Booster II, Targeting Range Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Tremor L [empty high slot]
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Vespa II x5 Hammerhead II x5
Something I am going to try in about a week, when T2 large artillery finishes. Ran the Mach as an armor tank with 800 autos, wasn't confident in my shield tank ability at the time. Its been in storage mostly unless I get Serp Blockade because I fly the Vargur now, I swaped with a MWD and just burn into range then let them have it. Works well with auto cannons and takes about 45 minutes to just under an hour for the blockade (damps make it a *****, now I just fly into their range like a fast cruiser and most are still way spread out to do alot of damag), going to try a sniper armor mach for a bit then rip out the armor tank and go with a shield tank.
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William Cooly
Sol Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.08.31 23:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aqriue Armor Arty Failfit mostly comprised of modules to compensate for the fact that it's arty
Originally by: Lancashirian pve shield machariel
Right-o then. I really am not sure why people keep trying for arty machs when auto machs already get more range than you'll usually need for a lot more dps and are more easy to use. -
I troll stupid people. |
Flakey Foont
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Posted - 2011.09.01 00:10:00 -
[9]
I use a shield Mach for missions, but for Incursions armor can work:
Low Damage Control II Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Mid Sensor Booster II Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
High 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II Auto Targeting System II
Rig Large Anti-Thermic Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I
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Navaris Dreadblade
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:09:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 01/09/2011 05:13:47
Originally by: Puss in Boots Yes. With maxed gunnery skills, I can hit all to 100km with standard phased plasma. It's most effective in AE4 bonus room. 900dps vs 845dps (no drones). The 23km of extra range comes in handy more than the eft warriored 55dps. Plus, I believe it helps against damps a bit which I run into.
Also, i'd not put shield rigs on a mach, the low sig is one of the advantages to using it. Shield rigs just ruins it.
Interesting about the locking range. I normally have an alt in system for leadership bonus so it's not worth it, but something to consider at any rate. If range ever becomes an issue for me, I'll probably just fit an MWD instead of a Signal Amplifier. X-Types don't get cap penalties and my fit can tank well enough on its own to lose the afterburner.
As far as shield rigs go, one rig increases your signature radius by an astounding 17m (340 to 357). I'll take that for an extra (pre-penalties) 30% EM resist.
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xFlyingDutchman
Caldari Blue Moon Salvage Yard
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Posted - 2011.09.01 05:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wolfic [Machariel, Missions] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II
Pith B-Type X-Large Shield Booster Explosion Dampening Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L [empty high slot]
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
This is spot on. :thumbsup:
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Torskelrak
Gallente Malevolent Intentions
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Posted - 2011.09.01 09:36:00 -
[12]
How much are you looking at to get a mach like this? In a vargur not better?
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:01:00 -
[13]
I see a lot of fittings with Burst Aerator II's. If you've got 4 gyrostabilizers, a T2 burst aerator adds 6.5% to your DPS. On the other hand, you could use two metastasis adjusters, which would add 22% to your tracking.
With that magnitude of increase, wouldn't the tracking rigs be preferable?
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Muad 'dib
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aamrr I see a lot of fittings with Burst Aerator II's. If you've got 4 gyrostabilizers, a T2 burst aerator adds 6.5% to your DPS. On the other hand, you could use two metastasis adjusters, which would add 22% to your tracking.
With that magnitude of increase, wouldn't the tracking rigs be preferable?
well on that note fitting a t2locus would boost yuour falloff and you would do more dps in falloff which would likly over take that flat 6.5% when in optimal (almost never).
Meep Meep!
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:21:00 -
[15]
Locus coordinators improve optimal, not falloff. You're thinking of ambit extensions. (One would add 5.64%, two would add 7.96%).
Ambits aren't really worthwhile once you've got three TEs, because an ambit gives a smaller bonus than a TE does. Metastasis rigs, on the other hand, give twice the tracking that a TE does, so they're worth considering for the same reason that people use the T2 burst aerator.
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Muad 'dib
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Aamrr Locus coordinators improve optimal, not falloff. You're thinking of ambit extensions. (One would add 5.64%, two would add 7.96%).
Ambits aren't really worthwhile once you've got three TEs, because an ambit gives a smaller bonus than a TE does. Metastasis rigs, on the other hand, give twice the tracking that a TE does, so they're worth considering for the same reason that people use the T2 burst aerator.
yes, i was thinking of ambits.
I thought that 8% for two would mean 8% more applied damage out to the further falloff.
Meep Meep!
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:34:00 -
[17]
Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple (if it were, we would not be having this argument). Whether ambits or a RoF implant is preferable is mostly a function of your current range -- and if the ambits are preferable, you're losing too much DPS to falloff and are doing a poor job of range control.
Tracking, on the other hand...
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Muad 'dib
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aamrr Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple (if it were, we would not be having this argument).
not an argument! i was asking.
I fly a mach a fair bit and have done for a while, just took my chance to ask somone whos tryed before and or done the math ;)
Meep Meep!
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:39:00 -
[19]
Perhaps I should have used a different word. Argument is too harsh, and I was quite enjoying the...debate? In any event, I apologize. I did not mean to come across as adversarial.
Unfortunately, I cannot fly a Machariel so I can't really test anything I'm saying. I do know that my Nightmare does an adequate job of popping frigates at about 40km, and the stock Machariel has about 50% more tracking than my tachyon-fit Nightmare...
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Muad 'dib
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:47:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Muad ''dib on 01/09/2011 10:47:26 3x TE is 69k fall off, one T2 Ambit is 73k and with two its 75k.
So i agree this isnt much at all and would offer less dps gain even at range, than straight up more dps.
Meep Meep!
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.09.01 10:59:00 -
[21]
Quite the contrary. What's funny is that the TE is so much more effective. Honestly, all of the optimal/falloff/tracking modules in this game are a schizo.
If you compare the optimal and falloff columns in the chart below, I think we gain a little insight into why Minmatar are so popular lately...
=Optimal= 20% = T2 locus 15% = TE2, Scripted TC2, T1 locus
=Falloff= 30% = TE2, Scripted TC2 20% = T2 ambit 15% = T1 ambit
=Tracking= 30% = scripted TC2 20% = T2 metastasis 15% = T1 metastasis 9.5% = TE2
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.09.01 11:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Aamrr on 01/09/2011 11:44:00 I wish CCP would have simply done what CCP Nozh wanted to do, here. It would have looked like this:
Originally by: Tracking, CCP Nozh 30% = Scripted TC2 20% = T2 rig 15% = T1 rig 9.5% = TE2
Originally by: Range, CCP Nozh 20% = T2 rig, scripted TC2 15% = T1 rig, TE2
If falloff is less valuable than optimal, then it should be compensated for in the base values of the turrets themselves, not in the modules that affect them. Doing it with modules creates a multiplicative effect that unduly favors ships with free low slots -- like basically every Minmatar shield tanker in the game.
Tracking enhancers definitely need to give falloff. I'm not disputing this for a second. But when CCP added a 30% falloff bonus to TEs, every autocannon ship with that could fit two of them received a 64% falloff increase. That is absurd.
They should have gone with CCP Nozh's plan and given a modest boost to the turrets themselves. 10% would have been about right.
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Amda Tori
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:32:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Amda Tori on 01/09/2011 14:33:58
The "optimal range" for the Machariel in missions it's 20km - 50km ( 15km - 50km vs battleships ) Above 50km your DPS will be gimped significantly. ( talking about geeks that want more falloff ) Below 20km you won't have enough tracking ( vs cruisers and frigates ).
I got 0.07234 rad/sec tracking on my Mach ( perfect skills and implants ) and it struggles below 20km if you are moving with a speed greater than 500m/s. Don't think you can achieve a such tracking with an armor tanked Machariel.
You can pop approaching frigates between 25km and 60km, 2-3 shot cruisers in the same range. Below 20km, you won't hit a fast approaching frigate. Under 10km you will struggle hitting orbiting cruisers. Stationary frigates between 15km and 60km.
Under 10km you'll hit orbiting battleships for like 500 DPS ( depends on the rats; Angels will take the pounding quite good ).
In an armor tanked Machariel you will be having most of the fights under 30km, most of the time under 15km. Autocannons Machariel is not built for a such close range.
I think i forgot some things. ( ramblings of a boring day ) ________________________________________________ I feel free to explore only within boundaries.
You're =/= your they're =/= their |
Puss in Boots
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Navaris Dreadblade Edited by: Navaris Dreadblade on 01/09/2011 05:18:47
Originally by: Puss in Boots Yes. With maxed gunnery skills, I can hit all to 100km with standard phased plasma. It's most effective in AE4 bonus room. 900dps vs 845dps (no drones). The 23km of extra range comes in handy more than the eft warriored 55dps. Plus, I believe it helps against damps a bit which I run into.
Also, i'd not put shield rigs on a mach, the low sig is one of the advantages to using it. Shield rigs just ruins it.
Interesting about the locking range. I normally have an alt in system for leadership bonus so it's not worth it, but it is something to consider. If range ever becomes an issue I'll probably just fit an MWD for range dictation instead dropping a Gyro for a Signal Amplifier. X-Types don't get cap penalties and my fit can tank well enough on its own to lose the afterburner.
As far as shield rigs go, one rig increases your signature radius by an astounding 17m (340 to 357). I'll take that for an extra (pre-penalties) 30% EM resist.
Not sure if this is worth mentioning, but my EFTWarrioring shows 1003 DPS (no implants, 4 Gyro) vs. 958 (3 Gyro). 45 DPS difference, but even with those numbers I feel like 45 dps > 25 or so km target range.
I'd agree with you on paper, but you will only see 45dps hitting stations. Don't forget the benefit against damps if you mission in gallente space.
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Puss in Boots
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:45:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Puss in Boots on 01/09/2011 14:45:23 I fail at reply
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Malcanis
Caldari Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:05:00 -
[26]
Call me a wimp if you like, but I put a damage control on my PvE Faction BS. If for no other reason than PvE is pretty dull and so I tend to drink heavily and dual screen while I do it.
Those extra EHP have saved me from losing a faction BS more than once.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Navaris Dreadblade
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Puss in Boots I'd agree with you on paper, but you will only see 45dps hitting stations. Don't forget the benefit against damps if you mission in gallente space.
I mission in Amarr space, the only reason I use a Machariel is for AE and WC. All the other missions I do in a Nightmare because of its superior damage projection against traditional Amarrian rats. This probably has a lot to do with why range is really meh for me on a Mach.
The difference is so small it's probably best to just call it personal preference.
@People talking about tracking: The Mach already has sufficient tracking to hit almost anything - if a frigate gets under your guns, just use a flight of light drones to clean it up instead of taking lower DPS by removing a Burst Aerator.
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Muad 'dib
Caldari The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:10:00 -
[28]
if you stand still in missions, you will need more stuff to make your ship work.
Flying right in the first place makes a heck of a difference.
Meep Meep!
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Valor D'eglise
Gallente Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 16:14:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Valor D''eglise on 01/09/2011 16:17:21 Edited by: Valor D''eglise on 01/09/2011 16:16:54
People who are talking about tracking in a mission Mach are just doing it wrong. I have yet to see a situation where I really need tracking. Long range enemies fly away from you, as you come closer. No transversal = no need for tracking. Short range enemies are dead, before they are in their opt, which means they come at you in a straight line. No need for tracking. Only exception: angels, loads of them. If you are swarmed by their BS, just approach one, it will fly away from you. Since you and the targeted rat are both flying the most agile BS there is, it just takes one or two weapon cycles till both of you are aligned. And most of the time these cycles hit anyway, because ACs with 3 TE already track very well (although I fit the TEs for falloff bonus). Frigs are either instapopped (wait till they yellowbox you to have low transversal) at 20km+.
I also don't really get the XL shield booster fittings. I run a gist x-type large. It's so soft on cap, that I can turn it on at the beginning of a room and turn it off at the end. It tanks well enough with mission specific hardeners even for the hardest missions. My fitting has 13 minutes cap with this booster and tanks about 500dps, depending on damage type. More than enough, if you ask me. Hasn't failed me ever.
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.09.01 16:56:00 -
[30]
I run the 800 setup but i just use a gist b xlarge and 2 mission specific active hardeners with 2 utility slots. faction gyros. AB when warranted.
Drones as needed, which isn't much.
Since it has 2 utility slots in the middle it ****s serpentis extra hard with 2 f-90's.
No mission should be able to break your tank like that, except EM damage warrants a 4th shield slot.
. Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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