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TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
342
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:What I want to know is if I should train T2 torps (torp to V is a no-brainer, should I specialize?) for SBs and, if I do, what else are they good for?
Ravens. This question arose from training an alt into T2 torps for a bomber. "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9564
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:If it's so easy, do it. It's not as if you can choose torpedoes V as a skill to lose if you're silly enough to lose SP, and you're now just nitpicking. No, I'm demonstrating to you how missiles and their skills operate differently from turrets. Having to train (and maintain) the T2 ammo separately is one of those key differences.
Quote:This is a tangent which has no relevance to the original subject. It's relevant because it's part of answering why your initial assumption is incorrect: because you have to train for different things to get the whole package, and as a whole, it'll actually require more training. It's also not particularly surprising that it works differently because the weapon system itself operates on completely different principles.
Quote:An original question which clearly stated "skill into". GǪand it was based on incorrect assumptions and skill lists.
Quote:T2 blasters take 70 days, T2 torps take 20 days. T2 rails (without blaster training) take 70 days, T2 cruise missiles take 20 days. To train both types would take ~100 days for the hybrid turrets and ~40 days for the missiles. In this same time, you could also train T2 HMLs and HAMs. Fair? Since you don't have the full range of missiles and since they will have rather awful performance at that point, yes, entirely fair. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1091
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Away from caldari there is no clear missile path, its a secondary weapon. You can learn specific missile sizes because of selective ships. Just as you can train up Heavy t2 drones before light and med. When you learn heavy turrets, you have learned medium and small as every race has a clear path of turret ships.
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Alara IonStorm
3192
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:55:00 -
[34] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote: T2 blasters take 70 days, T2 torps take 20 days. T2 rails (without blaster training) take 70 days, T2 cruise missiles take 20 days. To train both types would take ~100 days for the hybrid turrets and ~40 days for the missiles. In this same time, you could also train T2 HMLs and HAMs. Fair?
Nope
Overall Missile Skills: 24060400 Overall Gunnery Skills: 45458000
That is for Three Weapons systems vs One Weapons System.
It is in Gunnery favor overall while in return you get to specialize in certain weapons faster for Missiles.
That is the trade off and it is a fair one. |
TheBreadMuncher
Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance
342
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:56:00 -
[35] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Away from caldari there is no clear missile path, its a secondary weapon. You can learn specific missile sizes because of selective ships. Just as you can train up Heavy t2 drones before light and med. When you learn heavy turrets, you have learned medium and small as every race has a clear path of turret ships.
See, this is the answer I was looking for. Could do without the rant queens and forumlords next time, please. Cheers Beef! "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
607
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:57:00 -
[36] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Ravens. Yuck. Welp.
On topic, having skilled up all medium T2 guns, I can see why you'd be asking this question but IMO it all balances out in the end. The difference between missiles and guns is that the T2 path is forced with guns, making a more natural progression. However, the existence of ships like the stealth bomber helps make the case for a less rigid progression through missiles. The only gunships that even comes close to this are tier 3 BCs, and you'll be training medium guns for their just-as-useful brothers in the class anyway.
vOv Nothing Found |
Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
219
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:59:00 -
[37] - Quote
Because bombers would require you to get rockets V, HAMs V and then torps V... All to fly a t2-fit T2 frigate. |
Kult Altol
Republican Industries Epsilon Fleet
114
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Posted - 2012.09.27 18:59:00 -
[38] - Quote
Dwwwah, cuz laxor bemz arr duh beestust.
Mussiles arr cwap. A narrow mind is a focused mind. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1790
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Posted - 2012.09.27 19:03:00 -
[39] - Quote
When these skills were designed (read: pre T3), the primary reason to train missiles was to get into a Raven and run level 4 missions.
So in CCP think, it works like this:
-We need subs. -Carebears, who are our primary customers, want to run missions. -L1 to L3 missions suck ass -We must be able to get them into a torp Raven before they get bored and unsub. -Guns are for PVP. Those nerds aren't going anywhere.
So you end up being able to train up PVE much quicker. And historically PVE means Caldari. And Caldari means missles.
No other real reason for the disparity that I can think of that makes better sense than this.
Mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9564
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Posted - 2012.09.27 19:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:See, this is the answer I was looking for. Right. One that doesn't dispute your incorrect assumption. Confirmation bias at its finestGǪ
The answer to your question is still GÇ£it isn'tGÇ¥ and the reason is still that
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Miss Le NerfSxBye
State War Academy Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2012.09.27 19:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:What I want to know is if I should train T2 torps (torp to V is a no-brainer, should I specialize?) for SBs and, if I do, what else are they good for? POS Bashing with a range rigged Raven and you would probably use T1 torpedoes for that. Only PVE ship they are really viable on is the Golem because of the target painter bonus. Ex CEO discouraged T2 Torps on Bombers meta4 was preferred because of fitting and the current penalties for T2 ammo. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
607
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 19:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
Miss Le NerfSxBye wrote:POS Bashing with a range rigged Raven and you would probably use T1 torpedoes for that. Only PVE ship they are really viable on is the Golem because of the target painter bonus. Ex CEO discouraged T2 Torps on Bombers meta4 was preferred because of fitting and the current penalties for T2 ammo. Makes sense, thanks. Nothing Found |
Smiknight
The Plebian Republic
7
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Posted - 2012.09.27 19:33:00 -
[43] - Quote
Good troll. 6/10. Do you understand how much resurrection hurts? |
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
14
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Posted - 2012.09.27 20:17:00 -
[44] - Quote
My ex alt got +15mil sp in missile, i spent a lot time to get perfect support missile skills at lvl 5 + specialisations at lvl 5 like torpedos, ham, heavy, light, rocket etc, it was not so easy and fast like OP said or suggest, sadly i cant aford multple character longer, so i sold him in character bazar.
Fly safe Cloned s0ul o7 ;)
This game is about specialisation and maximize efficienty, realy here no big difirence betwen guns... while we talk about sp amount.
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Doc Severide
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
180
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Posted - 2012.09.27 20:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
Whatta dumb thread....
But Tippia wins... |
Ensign X
309
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Posted - 2012.09.27 20:33:00 -
[46] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:What I want to know is if I should train T2 torps (torp to V is a no-brainer, should I specialize?) for SBs and, if I do, what else are they good for?
T2 Javelins are beast for shooting small targets. Rage is pretty awful for anything Battlecruiser size and below. Beyond that, T2 Torps are basically useless unless one day you decide to fly a Golem. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4892
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 21:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Training cruise missiles when you can already use T2 torps requires you to train Cruise Missiles V and Cruise Missile Specialization. By contrast, if you have T2 large rails trained and want to use T2 large blasters, you only need to train the specialization skill rather than "Blasters V" for example.
This is the same with every other missile type - you have to train specifically for those variants in order to use them. please leave |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
676
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 23:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
Andski wrote:Training cruise missiles when you can already use T2 torps requires you to train Cruise Missiles V and Cruise Missile Specialization. By contrast, if you have T2 large rails trained and want to use T2 large blasters, you only need to train the specialization skill rather than "Blasters V" for example.
This is the same with every other missile type - you have to train specifically for those variants in order to use them.
But if you don't already have have all the lower size specialities, you can't. (small and medium blaster specialization, + their requirements) FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9574
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Posted - 2012.09.27 23:53:00 -
[49] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:But if you don't already have have all the lower size specialities, you can't. (small and medium blaster specialization, + their requirements) GǪwhich equates to 8 ranks to IV (360k:ish SP) and a rank-2 skill to V (which takes care of the prereqs for the previous levels of specialisation as well) for another 512k SPGǪ but you'll want that skill anyway so it's not really much in the way of GǣextraGǥ training (and if you ever go for a second turret type, you're already set for all tiers).
The additional time required is pretty minimal. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
293
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Posted - 2012.09.28 02:40:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tarvos Telesto wrote:My ex alt got +15mil sp in missile, i spent a lot time to get perfect support missile skills at lvl 5 + specialisations at lvl 5 like torpedos, ham, heavy, light, rocket etc, it was not so easy and fast like OP said or suggest, sadly i cant aford multple character longer, so i sold him in character bazar.
Fly safe Cloned s0ul o7 ;)
This game is about specialisation and maximize efficienty, realy here no big difirence betwen guns... while we talk about sp amount.
In addition while you train out your 15 mill SP in Missiles you get no support from Meta. Where a new player with hybrid or Projectile fit player can get meta 4 bonus to tracking, damage multipliers and refire, you get refire from a meta 4 HM or Cruise launcher.
I trained Missiles last, having trained all the gunnery it won't impact me as much but it still leaves a bitter taste seeing CCP clubbing the ever loving shite out of Missile boats again, for the third time now. |
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Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
318
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Posted - 2012.09.28 09:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tippia wrote:TheBreadMuncher wrote:No-ooo, that's not entirely true. You have to branch for both blasters and railguns - two different sets of specialisations. No, it's entirely accurate. If you train Hybrid Weapons, you get blasters and rails; if you train HMLs you don't get HAMs. For turrets, you get both range categories, and specialisations are just branches on the same tree (not to mention that the support skills to specialise are shared for all turrets); for missiles, they're completely separate paths, and the specialisations are not shared GÇö they just extend that one trunk they're on. Quote:The skills for the Torpedo Launcher II will get you Rage Torpedoes and Javelin Torpedoes. No. Torp Launcher II:Missile Launcher Operation IV Torpedo Specialization I -á-á-á-áTorpedoes V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áHeavy Missiles III -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áStandard Missiles III Javelin Torpedo:Torpedo Specialization I -á-á-á-áTorpedoes V -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áHeavy Missiles III -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-áStandard Missiles III Torpedoes V -á-á-á-á[GǪ] Missile Launcher Operation V There are two crucial differences: one is that you have to have MLO at V to use the ammo; you don't need it for the launcher. The other is that you don't need Torp V to use launcher (just to train for it), but you do need it for the missiles. Should you ever lose Torp V (which is a reasonably high probability since it's a medium-rank skills with 1M SP poured into it GÇö a good candidate for SP loss), you can keep using the launchers since it's not an actual prereq for using them GÇö you only need the Torp Spec skill. However, losing Torp V means you are now barred from using the Javelins since it is a prereq for them. So the launcher is easier to train for an immensely easier to retain if you ever lose SP. You have to spend additional time training for the ammo and need to protect it more than you do the luncher skills. This is the exact opposite situation than for turrets, where the turret itself requires far more training than the ammo, and being able to use the turret means you can always use the ammo as well.
I think you're just nit-picking here. Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
318
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Posted - 2012.09.28 09:41:00 -
[52] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Tarvos Telesto wrote:My ex alt got +15mil sp in missile, i spent a lot time to get perfect support missile skills at lvl 5 + specialisations at lvl 5 like torpedos, ham, heavy, light, rocket etc, it was not so easy and fast like OP said or suggest, sadly i cant aford multple character longer, so i sold him in character bazar.
Fly safe Cloned s0ul o7 ;)
This game is about specialisation and maximize efficienty, realy here no big difirence betwen guns... while we talk about sp amount.
In addition while you train out your 15 mill SP in Missiles you get no support from Meta. Where a new player with hybrid or Projectile fit player can get meta 4 bonus to tracking, damage multipliers and refire, you get refire from a meta 4 HM or Cruise launcher. I trained Missiles last, having trained all the gunnery it won't impact me as much but it still leaves a bitter taste seeing CCP clubbing the ever loving shite out of Missile boats again, for the third time now.
inb4 Drake needs guns. Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
162
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Posted - 2012.09.28 10:50:00 -
[53] - Quote
I prefer faction missiles. They pack a wallop yet, but with none of the drawbacks t2's give you. The real question should be why you're allowed to use faction ammunition with T1 skills. Not just missiles, but all of it. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o )
The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4898
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Posted - 2012.09.28 14:16:00 -
[54] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:But if you don't already have have all the lower size specialities, you can't. (small and medium blaster specialization, + their requirements)
So? The amount of time needed to specialize in missiles isn't much different from specializing in lasers, hybrids or projectiles. Training, say, all missile supports to 5 and all t2 missile spec skills to IV (save for dumb crap like FoF/defenders) takes a bit longer than training all gunnery supports to 5 and t2 specs for hybrids up to large.
The only difference is that it takes less time to beeline straight for t2 torps, for example. I personally wouldn't mind rockets > HAMs > torps and lights/rapid lights > HMLs > cruises as the prereq paths for missiles. please leave |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
268
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Posted - 2012.09.28 14:31:00 -
[55] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Away from caldari there is no clear missile path, its a secondary weapon. You can learn specific missile sizes because of selective ships. Just as you can train up Heavy t2 drones before light and med. When you learn heavy turrets, you have learned medium and small as every race has a clear path of turret ships.
See, this is the answer I was looking for. Could do without the rant queens and forumlords next time, please. Cheers Beef!
If you don't want "rant queens and forumlords" try not making overly simplistic and ultimately incorrect assumptions in your posts. People respond to how YOU post.
What RSB told you is true and very easy to figure out if you had been more open to discussion rather than posting like you already got it all figured out.
In other words, sometimes the problem isn't everyone else it's you. |
Alpheias
Euphoria Released Verge of Collapse
800
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Posted - 2012.09.28 15:24:00 -
[56] - Quote
TheBreadMuncher wrote:Alpheias wrote:Because how many dedicated missile ships is there and how many races is there? 1) Amarr dedicated missile T2 ships 2) Caldari dedicated missile ships (T1 and T2) That's two races without looking. You'll find others.
You are missing the point, the number of dedicated missile ships compared to dedicated turret ships is few in comparison. I'd kill kittens and puppies and bunnies I'd maim toddlers and teens and then more |
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