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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.03.09 09:21:00 -
[1]
I was just wondering about other peoples opinions on this one...
Last night I was involved in a battle which was mainly between longrange fitted battleships. The two fleets were about 120km apart. I was flying round between our sides battleships providing frig cover.
Loads of times I was targeted by enemy battleships and fired on.. I was in a harpy doing over 500m/s and had an EM hardner and tech II shield booster so made it out on every occasion. I'd then make a quick boost to my shield and warp back..
Why ohh why in gods name would people start firing on frigs during a fleet battle between battleships?
Is it worth even taking assault frigs to fleet battles? are you instantly the prime target or something?
And if its that bad with an assault frig... what the hell would it be like in a cruiser? You'd be too slow to warp away, and to weak to tank dammage for long enough to get away.. you'd just be giving someone an easy kill by turning up in a cruiser..
Am i missing something or are the only usefull ships in fleet battles tech 1 frigs as tacklers and battleships for firepower?
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ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.03.09 09:28:00 -
[2]
you could also use a cloaker in combat - add some drones as well but yes frigs are easily damaged if not set up properly in BS vs BS situations - the other option is for every 3 battleship - have 10 frigs as support (mostly used as EW, jamming and other support)
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Raem Civrie
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Posted - 2005.03.09 10:16:00 -
[3]
I've used an enyo in small battleship fleet engagements, and I can safely say that it can hold it's ground. However, when those megathrons and dominii broke out their drones, I ran like hell.
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ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.03.09 10:20:00 -
[4]
specialised frigs still have a place in group battles but careful movement is essential
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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.03.09 10:26:00 -
[5]
Quote: specialised frigs still have a place in group battles but careful movement is essential
lol yeah, I noticed.. you gotta make 110% use of your transversal or its bye bye friggy..
I just get the feeling that I'd of been more use in a 200k isk tech I frig... Perhaps it was just this battle in particular.. V long range.. not alot of enermy frigs. Guess it was just not very suited to an assault frig..
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.03.09 10:30:00 -
[6]
Frigs have no place in proper fleet battles.
Need scrambling?!? what for... get an ALL TURRET BS FLEET and gank targets before they get a chance to react, align or targets that get lagged.
Need anti support cover? Get a raven with some jammers, webbers, damps and cruise missiles. Or have your ALL TURRET BS FLEET warp in at range and target the enemy support.
Only in minor skirmishes is it sensible to use frigs.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
ollobrains
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Posted - 2005.03.09 10:57:00 -
[7]
Guess frigs might be better off for smaller corps in light combat situations or for scouting etc - anything less than a cruiser i think isnt suited to large battles
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Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.03.09 11:01:00 -
[8]
In the large fleet battles frigs tend to be cannon fodder. In large enough groups some can survive long enough to hold down a few ships but they will always take the heaviest losses.
These days most fleets will have maybe one or 2 frigates for scouting ahead and behind the main fleet and that's about it. Everyone else is setup for heavy combat.
Advanced frigates are more suitable for tactical engagements that almost always only have a small number of ships as this is when loadouts, skills, ships and tactics play a much larger role in tipping the balance.
This isn't really a bad thing, it's just the different natures of huge fleet battles and small skirmishes.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.03.09 11:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Wild Rho This isn't really a bad thing,
Not a bad thing?! It's the worst thing.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Wild Rho
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Posted - 2005.03.09 11:12:00 -
[10]
Exactly, you can't expect somthing like a fleet battle to work they way YOU want it to. Simple fact is you bave a very large number of ships that are setup to hit for alot of damage at a long range. If the support ships are sitting amoung their mates at long range they are going to be picked off.
Atm I agree that cruise missiles make getting in close the the enemy never mind the swarm of drones they just dropped but frigates are small fast and very very fragile. Throwing them into a situation with that much firepower is only asking for destruction. Frigate pilots who survive these engagements do so becuase they have some genuine skills, not just artificial ones (trained skills) and that's what serperates them from people who think you just jump in a frig and charge in.
I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it... |
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Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.03.09 11:47:00 -
[11]
No ammount of skill will save you from x BS using Track Dam boosting loadouts from 80+km.
Fleets being able to operate without even dedicated scramblers is silly. Getting kills by simply Focus fire nuking fast enough to catch the target before he aligns or before even thinking of clicking warp.
Castor fleet warfare was as complete as fleet warfare should be... but then people started blobbing more and more and after exodus those getting blobbed started using long range track boosted all turret bs fleets to be able to face off the blobs.
It's funny because this weird situation didn't come about because of some change CCP implemented but due to the ever increasing desire of people to blob and others to counter it... and now it has become the norm.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.03.09 12:00:00 -
[12]
/starts dreaming
hopefully the HP changes will help rectify things..
If it takes longer to destroy targets they stand more chance of escaping. Then you need scrambling frigates.
When you bring in scrambling frigates you need to counter them. If missiles on small targets get nerfed you end up using destroyers and intys.
How do you protect your scrambling frigates from intys and destroyers? you use assault frigates..
How do you counter those assault frigates? you use cruisers..
/stops dreaming
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Kaylona Tso
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Posted - 2005.03.09 12:04:00 -
[13]
Lets be realistic. The fact any fleet can get organized is a great thing no matter what ships they use. Lets stand back from what we think this game for fleet combat and recognize any fleet of anything is better than no fleet at all. Every ship has its place if you know how to use it well, and just because you loose a few ships hear and there doesn't mean you loose the battle. Another is only a scord rock, or 10, away.
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Jim Steele
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Posted - 2005.03.09 12:30:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jim Steele on 09/03/2005 12:30:53 Frigs main benifits to be honest are as part of a "gank squad" seeking out and destroying lone bs's a few fast interceptors or assault frigs can decimate mining ops befor they know wtf happened.
As for fleet ops usually a fleet battle is so laggy and torps and cruise do full damage 100% of the time its not really worth using frigs in anything other then a tackling role, or to go after people who warp out in pods.
Thats just my 2isks anyway
Death to the Galante |
Heptameron
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Posted - 2005.03.09 13:17:00 -
[15]
Frigates can play a role in fleet combat. Forward and backward scouts, pod poppin, not very often that blobs stick together so they can help draw opportune targets off. Ok maybe not in the big standoffs, but any tactically aware commander will make sure he has a couple on hand for the not so scripted action.
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OrbitalEffect
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Posted - 2005.03.09 13:21:00 -
[16]
I think everyone knows that the secret to fleet battles, once engaged, is focused fire and knowing when to get out. Any bs that commits resources to frigates 120km away is putting their side at risk and is perhaps just looking to pad their kill count.
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.03.09 14:01:00 -
[17]
I also think long range fleet battles are rather dull. Ships do way too much damage theses days, no 'HP patch' will ever adress that. Bring geddons or tempests and all is said. And all is sad... You don't have the time to tackle ennemy targets, everybody is aligned to warp out and as soon as a ship is called primary, it bails out. Not enough time over long distances to go tackle them. Not to mention the lag that doesn't really help fast ships.
Assault frigates are good ships in frigate squads or solo raiding, that's about it.
EVE is way too much battleship centered, IMHO. I hope dreadnaughts change this, popping BSs like there's no tomorrow. Then, maybe, all ship types will have a role to fit in battle, including cruisers and assault frigates. Well, I'm just hoping, because being Caldari, I really feel left out by the current fleet configurations (and no, I don't want to be a jamming ***** all the time for others to have fun).
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Koda
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Posted - 2005.03.09 16:15:00 -
[18]
Assault ships or other frigates are going to get called as targets because they're one of the few things a long range fleet can hope to kill before it warps out.
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.03.09 16:28:00 -
[19]
The problem is that right now, Damage is >>>>>>than defence.
There are no tech2 defence modules out. No t2 hardeners, no t2 reppers. Nothing that can compete with T2 damage mods and T2 guns. So ganking is where it's at.
Release T2 defences and I think you will see a bit more balanced combat.
Nyxus
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Question2
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Posted - 2005.03.09 17:04:00 -
[20]
Fleet battles are not how CCP envisioned.
Currently its a set of BS with gank setups.THATS IT.
CCP probably envisioned BSes providing heavy firepower,BCs and cruisers providing cheaper fire support,destroyers shooting down frigs,intys intercepting incoming ships isntead of,you know,just ganking large ships,frigates as fast scouts,etc.
Just like what would have been a balanced fleet in a pre-aircraft carrier era navy battle.
A mass BS fleet in WW2 would have gotten SOOOO pwned by subs it wouldnt have been funny.
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Macel
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Posted - 2005.03.09 18:45:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Macel on 09/03/2005 18:46:14 Edited by: Macel on 09/03/2005 18:45:11 Honestly I don't think it was originally intended that a single or even small group of frigs could take on a properly equipped BS, nor should a single cruiser be able to take on a BS or a single frig be able to take on a cruiser... A BS is just a larger, more powerful ship. If you look at cash value wasted, the number of frigates you could put into action for the same cost as a BS is quite high - it's manpower thats lacking.. Since you've all got the money anyway, might as well all fly BSes.
Thats where things differ from CCP's original vision - inflation in the player economy has led to everyone and their garbage-hauling brothers being able to afford a BS. I recall a dev mentioning that only corporations would be able to fund and own BSes, not individuals, and this was the case at the very start of the game. The fact that fleet battles are all BSes is a result of a poorly thought out economy, where more money comes in than goes out, and prices on certain things, such as BSes remain stable because there is no shortage of supply.
If the economy was more limited, money was more precious and there was a limit to the number of minerals available to produce BSes, you'd see a lot more people flying cruisers and frigs, and battles would be a lot more interesting, despite the smaller ships' obvious inferiority to the BS.
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Ashelth
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Posted - 2005.03.10 19:38:00 -
[22]
A number of assault friggy setups are VERY high damage output. Good gunnery skills and a damage mod can give a retribution ~160 damage (before armor tanking) per second (this is versus my defensive apoc setup which does about 180 damage/second). The retribution is about 20% of the price, 5 times faster and much better locking time (for the juicier podding goodness).
Mind you, you're flying tissue paper but hey, it's all good for a laugh (that and you can run away faster in a friggy!) :D
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