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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Amber Coldheart
State War Academy Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2012.10.05 07:49:00 -
[271] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: The answer to that is a floating number depending on security status of the target system and the specific fit for the Hulk.
At the end of the day if the number of ships required to alpha the EHP plus fittings costs more than the potential drops from the target vessel before CONCORD arrives is too high, there is literally no margin to pay for the ships and fittings, and therefore the gank is not profitable.
Miners who mined aligned and paid attention pre-gank were never profitable to gank. That's because attempting it was always a waste of time.
So the numbers are quite elusive, depending on so many factors as to be systemic.
I see, thanx for the quick and thorough answer :)
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Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
102
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Posted - 2012.10.05 08:42:00 -
[272] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Bart Starr wrote:
EDIT 2: And yes, I ganked because they didn't tank. Because I generally didn't have enough firepower to crack a tanked Exhumer. 'Lazy' never really factored into it. Either they failed to tank and I was capable of killing them, or they tanked and I could not kill them. As it was, I was triple boxing, and had a lot of practice. 3 accounts, max skilled chars - Hardly sounds 'lazy'.
pfftt.... I quad-boxed 3 Hulks and an Orca and worked harder for longer than you EVER would on a gank. (and I STILL did not tank - no point). CCP GAVE you guys free ganks and AWESOME TOOLS to do it. They took it away because you got lazy, greedy and stupid about it. Ya just dont get it do you? THE MAN gotta take it away because somebody has to pay the Ferryman and if they're all gone - who will?
You keep insisting that there was 'no point' to tanking an Exhumer. How about survival?
I see what you are doing, though. Its a common denial strategy for miners.
-First, you fit your Exhumer for Max yield or Cargo, motivated by greed. (more Ore = more ISK) -Then you rationalize that risky choice by pretending that its 'the only choice'. ('no point' in tanking) -Then when a single T2 Catalyst smokes you, you claim its 'no fair' and demand buffs.
Had you tanked properly, (a solo properly tanked T2 Mack can survive 3 Cats in 0.7 - A Hulk survives 4, genius.) you might have not been attacked at all, because A) not all gankers travel in packs, and even if they do - why would they use 3+ 20M ISK Cats on a single target - when they could just as easily kill 3 fail-tanked Exhumers for the same cost?
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Pipa Porto
1143
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Posted - 2012.10.05 10:58:00 -
[273] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote: Nice metaphor actually.
And if CCP made MINING dangerous - in it's EXPECTED FORM - miners would tank. I know it sounds strange but the perception of danger is different.
I never tanked because I simply did not mine where the gankers were. You wanna make me tank WHEREVER I am - make ALL asteroids asplode.
GANKING STILL GONNA BE UNPROFITABLE.
Mining is Dangerous for the exact same reasons every other PvE activity in EVE is dangerous. Other Players. Grab some friends and run C6 sites on SISI. After a half dozen tries (or less), you'll never lose a ship again if you're paying attention. Same with Incursions, Same with Missions, Same with Ratting.
Here's the big point that you're missing. If all miners tanked their ships (pre-buff, ofc), Ganking wouldn't be profitable. However, the miners who were brave or clever would reduce their tanks in order to fit yield or cargo modules. They would net a larger income than the brick tanked miners, but they'd expose themselves to the risk of a profit-based gank. Either they'd decide the risk was low enough and accept losses, or they'd take active measures to keep themselves safe.
Now here's the problem with the current situation. The Mackinaw is unprofitable to gank. The Mackinaw has the second highest yield. The Mackinaw has the largest Cargo Hold. That places it: Tied for first in Tank (after the magic unprofitable number, Tank's not worth squat), Roaring ahead in first for Convenience (aka Cargo), And a close second in Yield (equivalent to the Cargo Hulk pre-buff.
The Skiff is: Tied for First in Tank A Distant Second in Convenience And Dead last in Yield.
So nobody uses it. Because the Mackinaw does the Skiffs job as well as the Skiff does while doing its own job better than the Skiff does.
The Hulk has similar problems. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2012.10.05 11:04:00 -
[274] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:The Skiff is: Tied for First in Tank
With what? Mack? Or do you mean subcap ships in general (that would mean Proteus/Damnation)?
But anyway. I want to see 100k EHP Mack fit now. |
Pipa Porto
1143
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Posted - 2012.10.05 11:11:00 -
[275] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:The Skiff is: Tied for First in Tank With what? Mack? Or do you mean subcap ships in general (that would mean Proteus/Damnation)? But anyway. I want to see 100k EHP Mack fit now.
Feel free to read the whole post next time. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2012.10.05 11:14:00 -
[276] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:The Skiff is: Tied for First in Tank With what? Mack? Or do you mean subcap ships in general (that would mean Proteus/Damnation)? But anyway. I want to see 100k EHP Mack fit now. Feel free to read the whole post next time.
So, with Mack...
Now that 100k EHP Mack you promised... |
Pipa Porto
1143
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Posted - 2012.10.05 11:53:00 -
[277] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:So, with Mack...
Now that 100k EHP Mack you promised...
Almost there. Remember, parentheticals don't bite.
Oh, and Quote and Link where I promised a 100k EHP Mack. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2012.10.05 12:31:00 -
[278] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Oh, and Quote and Link where I promised a 100k EHP Mack.
Here ya go.
Pipa Porto wrote:The Skiff is: Tied for First in Tank
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2007410#post2007410 |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
408
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Posted - 2012.10.05 12:58:00 -
[279] - Quote
CCP: The glories of the sandbox! So long as the sandbox is nice and kind to the terrible hisec bears and wowtard crowd. Wouldn't want to upset them.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of the direction EVE is going. War mechanics, failwatch, mining marges with massive holds AND great tanks, upcoming pos changes, etc
all bad stuff imo |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
698
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Posted - 2012.10.05 13:03:00 -
[280] - Quote
You still haven't linked this mythical 100k EHP Mack post.
Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2012.10.05 13:31:00 -
[281] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:You still haven't linked this mythical 100k EHP Mack post.
If ganker says Mack and Skiff both can have same EHP tanked then ganker should have something to prove this claim. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2496
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Posted - 2012.10.05 13:37:00 -
[282] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If I want a brick armour tank, I have to sacrifice speed, agility & dps. If I want heavy dps, I have to sacrifice speed, agility & tank. If I want a fast nano ship, I have to sacrifice tank & dps. If I want to mine in complete safety, all I have to do is fill my low slots with mining yield mods, warp to ice belt then go afk for an hour. There is no sacrifice there which happens to be one of the core principals of EVE. He's a MINER ya knob. If I was a SOLDIER I would EXPECT to wear a helmet and carry a gun because I might get killed. If I was a POLICEMAN I would EXPECT to wear a vest and carry a gun because I might get killed. If I was SAILOR I would EXPECT to wear a lifejacket and an EPIRB because I might drown. If I was a MINER, I'd try wearing a bloody HARDHAT. And even if I WAS given a HARDHAT, a life jacket, a vest, an EPIRB and 3 guns, I'm STILL dead if the mine blows up. So I go in with my biggest tractor and jackhammer and I mine like crazy and GTFO as fast as possible because THAT'S WHAT MINERS DO. They're MINERS and the EXPECTATION of risk isn't there. You're applying a "gaming mechanic" in an UNREALISTIC scenario. As a MINER my greatest risk SHOULD be having an asteroid BLOW UP IN MY FACE. Except they don't. Now that WOULD make a miner TANK because it would be EXPECTED - IN HIS LINE OF WORK. MINING ITSELF must be dangerous if you want behavourial change - getting ganked by some sad and lonely fatboy is just well, odd. All other points aside, this caught my attention.
All analogies tend to be bad, but this is perhaps the worst I have ever seen. Time to fight fire with gasoline.
If your mine entrance is in a country in the midst of a civil uprising, do you ignore the fact that there are armed civilians in the surrounding hills that would likely LOVE to shoot you because "I'm a miner, it's not my job to try and avoid being shot."
If your mine entrance is near a high crime area do you neglect to lock your car while at work because "I'm a miner, it's not my job to take sensible precautions."
Of all the people that are robbed or murdered on a daily basis around the world, how many of them do you think pursued a profession where such risks were IN THEIR LINE OF WORK?
At what point did you begin mistakenly thinking your example made the least bit of sense? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 13:47:00 -
[283] - Quote
Gankers didn't gank mining barges often before Goons made it profitable
Ganking mining barges was unprofitable long before Goons realized that ganking mining ships is good fun.
So, why start whining now?
You have same two options you gave us: - Adapt (get friends...) - Stop playing (unsub and cry) |
Anslo
BHEI Galactic Construction The Unforgiven Alliance
374
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Posted - 2012.10.05 13:50:00 -
[284] - Quote
Aaaah a risk free high-sec. Sounds nice. U mad ganking peasants? |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
189
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Posted - 2012.10.05 14:32:00 -
[285] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:If I want a brick armour tank, I have to sacrifice speed, agility & dps. If I want heavy dps, I have to sacrifice speed, agility & tank. If I want a fast nano ship, I have to sacrifice tank & dps. If I want to mine in complete safety, all I have to do is fill my low slots with mining yield mods, warp to ice belt then go afk for an hour. There is no sacrifice there which happens to be one of the core principals of EVE. He's a MINER ya knob. If I was a SOLDIER I would EXPECT to wear a helmet and carry a gun because I might get killed. If I was a POLICEMAN I would EXPECT to wear a vest and carry a gun because I might get killed. If I was SAILOR I would EXPECT to wear a lifejacket and an EPIRB because I might drown. If I was a MINER, I'd try wearing a bloody HARDHAT. And even if I WAS given a HARDHAT, a life jacket, a vest, an EPIRB and 3 guns, I'm STILL dead if the mine blows up. So I go in with my biggest tractor and jackhammer and I mine like crazy and GTFO as fast as possible because THAT'S WHAT MINERS DO. They're MINERS and the EXPECTATION of risk isn't there. You're applying a "gaming mechanic" in an UNREALISTIC scenario. As a MINER my greatest risk SHOULD be having an asteroid BLOW UP IN MY FACE. Except they don't. Now that WOULD make a miner TANK because it would be EXPECTED - IN HIS LINE OF WORK. MINING ITSELF must be dangerous if you want behavourial change - getting ganked by some sad and lonely fatboy is just well, odd. All other points aside, this caught my attention. All analogies tend to be bad, but this is perhaps the worst I have ever seen. Time to fight fire with gasoline. If your mine entrance is in a country in the midst of a civil uprising, do you ignore the fact that there are armed civilians in the surrounding hills that would likely LOVE to shoot you because "I'm a miner, it's not my job to try and avoid being shot." If your mine entrance is near a high crime area do you neglect to lock your car while at work because "I'm a miner, it's not my job to take sensible precautions." Of all the people that are robbed or murdered on a daily basis around the world, how many of them do you think pursued a profession where such risks were IN THEIR LINE OF WORK? At what point did you begin mistakenly thinking your example made the least bit of sense?
In the real world if a solder kills another solder it is just war.
In the real world if an innocent civilian is killed it is murder.
Is the murderer free to just wander around the city killing anyone they want? No, at least no in a stable country with good law enforcement. They can do it, as long as they avoid getting caught, but once they get caught it is over. they are dead or in Jail.
You speak of being in a high crime area of a large city, perhaps a neighborhood where the police do not enter (low sec), or in a country amide civil uprising where crime is rampant and the only justice is what the locals choose to enforce themselves(null sec) Or even in the wilderness where you can do what ever you want and nobody will ever know.(W-space). But you did not mention being in a city in a stable country, where law enforcement keeps people safe.(high sec)
Go to any mining facility in any stable first world country. The ONLY risk those miners have is from potential accidents on the Job site. Sure a criminal can walk up and shoot any one of those miners in the face. But not without consequence, it just does not happen. Your analogy of a miner working a mine in a area under civil unrest fearing being shot for simply being in the wrong place at the wrong time is a good one. But does not fit as a description of high sec.
A more fitting analogy would be comparing EVE to a large city like NEW YORK. The best parts of the city are very safe and well patrolled, very low crime. As you move into lower class neighborhoods police response times are a little slower, crime is a little higher, just as security rating in the systems of EVE drop as you get farther away from 1.0 security systems. Eventually you reach a neighborhood that the police do not even enter. In EVE this is when you pass into low sec. NULL sec would be the country under civil unrest with no stable government, zero law enforcement, and everyone fends for themselves. High sec will never be lawless space as NULL sec is.
In EVE the area's under civil unrest are not in high sec. High sec represents an area controlled by stable government, with good law enforcement, and protected citizens. So his analogy was far more applicable to high sec than yours.
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
851
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 14:42:00 -
[286] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:You still haven't linked this mythical 100k EHP Mack post. If ganker says Mack and Skiff both can have same EHP tanked then ganker should have something to prove this claim. You misread, because that's not what he's saying at all.
He's saying any EHP above a certain point makes ganking unprofitable by default and is therefore irrelevant. Both the Skiff and the Mackinaw have EHP above this point, so effectively they have the same useful tank. The only reason to fly a Skiff is if you're super paranoid and need a huge cushioned margin of error. For EVERY other situation the Mackinaw is used. The yield advantages of the Hulk are too offset by its small ore bay that requires more micromanaging than most miners are willing to put up with, and EHP that is by default below the profitability line. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1708
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 14:42:00 -
[287] - Quote
Ganker tears best tears |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2012.10.05 14:48:00 -
[288] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:You still haven't linked this mythical 100k EHP Mack post. If ganker says Mack and Skiff both can have same EHP tanked then ganker should have something to prove this claim. You misread, because that's not what he's saying at all. He's saying any EHP above a certain point makes ganking unprofitable by default and is therefore irrelevant. Both the Skiff and the Mackinaw have EHP above this point, so effectively they have the same useful tank. The only reason to fly a Skiff is if you're super paranoid and need a huge cushioned margin of error. For EVERY other situation the Mackinaw is used. The yield advantages of the Hulk are too offset by its small ore bay that requires more micromanaging than most miners are willing to put up with, and EHP that is by default below the profitability line.
Are you saying that it's impossible to destroy Mack with two T2 fit Catalysts?
If majority uses Macks over Hulks then that only means majority of miners are solo miners. |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Persona Non Gratis
95
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Posted - 2012.10.05 14:55:00 -
[289] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Go to any mining facility in any stable first world country. The ONLY risk those miners have is from potential accidents on the Job site. Sure a criminal can walk up and shoot any one of those miners in the face. But not without consequence, it just does not happen.
In Eve, however, it does just happen and anyone who's been playing more than 5 minutes knows this. Miners in possession of this knowledge who fail to act appropriately deserve everything they get from gankers. They don't deserve mummy CCP swooping in to save them from their own fail time after time. |
March rabbit
R.I.P. Revenge
255
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Posted - 2012.10.05 14:56:00 -
[290] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Ganker tears best tears +1 |
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March rabbit
R.I.P. Revenge
255
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Posted - 2012.10.05 14:58:00 -
[291] - Quote
admiral root wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Go to any mining facility in any stable first world country. The ONLY risk those miners have is from potential accidents on the Job site. Sure a criminal can walk up and shoot any one of those miners in the face. But not without consequence, it just does not happen. In Eve, however, it does just happen and anyone who's been playing more than 5 minutes knows this. Miners in possession of this knowledge who fail to act appropriately deserve everything they get from gankers. and i didn't see any good reasons to have this broken mechanic in first place |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air The Unthinkables
1891
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 15:11:00 -
[292] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Gankers didn't gank mining barges often before Goons made it profitable
Hulkageddon I-IV
lmao |
admiral root
Red Galaxy Persona Non Gratis
95
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Posted - 2012.10.05 15:12:00 -
[293] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:admiral root wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Go to any mining facility in any stable first world country. The ONLY risk those miners have is from potential accidents on the Job site. Sure a criminal can walk up and shoot any one of those miners in the face. But not without consequence, it just does not happen. In Eve, however, it does just happen and anyone who's been playing more than 5 minutes knows this. Miners in possession of this knowledge who fail to act appropriately deserve everything they get from gankers. and i didn't see any good reasons to have this broken mechanic in first place
What was broken? That players were (and still are) personally responsible for losing their ship to their own stupidity? That players can violence the ships of others in a game about doing violence to ships? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
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Posted - 2012.10.05 15:35:00 -
[294] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:Hulkageddon I-IV
lmao
Well, you guys do it only if you get paid!
admiral root wrote:In Eve, however, it does just happen and anyone who's been playing more than 5 minutes knows this. Miners in possession of this knowledge who fail to act appropriately deserve everything they get from gankers. They don't deserve mummy CCP swooping in to save them from their own fail time after time.
I pay you 3 million isk if you know when I undocked in untanked exhumer owned by me. Hint: I've never done that (not even on test server ). I pay you 1 million isk if you know exact date and time when I undocked in untanked exhumer owned by someone else.
API verified killmails are required to prove your claims. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2364
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 16:24:00 -
[295] - Quote
Anslo wrote:Aaaah a risk free high-sec. Sounds nice. U mad ganking peasants?
Man are you in for a shock this winter. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 16:27:00 -
[296] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:Aaaah a risk free high-sec. Sounds nice. U mad ganking peasants? Man are you in for a shock this winter.
Next expansion will bring PvP back to hisec.
Don't like fair PvP? Stop playing. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2364
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 16:36:00 -
[297] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Next expansion will bring PvP back to hisec.
Don't like fair PvP? Stop playing.
You call one hauler vs 2 thrashers, a cane and an osprey a fair fight? Because I don't which is going to make it all the more fun when my hauler kills them and anyone else willing to enage me
There is no gank nerf this winter but there is a huge pvp buff. Jita is going to be so much fun. Hell this is the perfect time for CCP to give the deep space transports a gun/missile slot. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 16:45:00 -
[298] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:You call one hauler vs 2 thrashers, a cane and an osprey a fair fight? Because I don't which is going to make it all the more fun when my hauler kills them and anyone else willing to enage me[:twisted
Wait... what?! Itty 5 vs. Cane? I want to see it! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
854
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 17:10:00 -
[299] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:Aaaah a risk free high-sec. Sounds nice. U mad ganking peasants? Man are you in for a shock this winter. Next expansion will bring PvP back to hisec. Don't like fair PvP? Stop playing. Nothing wrong with fair PVP. Forcing PVP to be fair is wrong. http://themittani.com/features/local-problem A simple fix to the local intel problem |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
183
|
Posted - 2012.10.05 17:19:00 -
[300] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:baltec1 wrote:Anslo wrote:Aaaah a risk free high-sec. Sounds nice. U mad ganking peasants? Man are you in for a shock this winter. Next expansion will bring PvP back to hisec. Don't like fair PvP? Stop playing. Nothing wrong with fair PVP. Forcing PVP to be fair is wrong.
You should read the devblog again. |
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