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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
1322
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 20:36:00 -
[151] - Quote
Ganking doesn't need a buff (may change depending on what goes through with the crimewatch bit).
However, the Mack could use a small hp nerf. Needs to be right near the Hulk. That way the Skiff would be the only one that would be very unprofitable to gank (as it is the Mack has enough tank to survive any profit based gank, unless it is stupid fit).
Maybe a small hold nerf for the Skiff, would have to test it a bit first with that in mind. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1270
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 20:39:00 -
[152] - Quote
Corina Jarr wrote:Ganking doesn't need a buff (may change depending on what goes through with the crimewatch bit).
However, the Mack could use a small hp nerf. Needs to be right near the Hulk. That way the Skiff would be the only one that would be very unprofitable to gank (as it is the Mack has enough tank to survive any profit based gank, unless it is stupid fit).
Maybe a small hold nerf for the Skiff, would have to test it a bit first with that in mind. A small hp nerf to the Mack is a buff to ganking, though.
+1. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Frogpond Trego
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.10.04 02:38:00 -
[153] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Ok, show me where CCP said that the Skiff Devblog wrote:The Procurer and Skiff are made for protection against suicide gank wasn't designed to be used as a tanky ship to survive Suicide Ganks in HS? The Skiff is useless in its intended role because the Mack is tanky enough to be unprofitable to gank. In LS and Null, a pointed mining ship is a dead mining ship, so their ability to tank is irrelevant, so the Skiff is useless again. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73098
Interestingly, in the original devblog ytterbium didn't say anything about suicide ganking, and which barges/exhumers were intended to be unprofitable to gank and which weren't. In the summary posted by CCP Tallest that the line you quoted was derived from,he added in that line, as a small part of a description, and you have jumped on it like a dog who hadn't seen meat in a month. Is that refinement additional information, or an unintended corruption of the message, or is it perhaps just an obvious truism that the skiff is indeed tougher against ganks than the mack, but that you are taking that one line out of context and giving it undue emphasis? I don't want to argue against this too long, as the larger argument you make that generally there's no need for more tank than that necessary to avoid a gank, and the mack has that much tank currently, so the skiff is pointless, is quite valid. That's true, the skiff is currently useless, I would never claim otherwise. To more specifically say that CCP intended the skiff to be the 'only unprofitable mining ship to gank', I think that is not justified. There are tons of useless ships in the game currently, for so many different reasons--I mean, historically over 50% of the ship types probably qualify, by a common sense standard. For most of these useless ships, people don't construct a conspiracy to explain why the ship is useless, they just don't use the ship and move on. So, moving on, accepting that the skiff is currently useless, and not favoring any pet theory as to WHY is it useless, let's consider how to make it useful.
The uselessness of the skiff could be negated by upping the challenge of NPCs in lowsec/nullsec mining, for example, or with any of an infinite spectrum of other possible changes (ring mining). We could make it warp-stabbed by default as well as more tanky. (As I said earlier, there's not too much point in making the skiff better at dangerous situations without first making these dangerous situations pay off in additional ISK, though) You are focused on only one change that could make the extra tank of the skiff more valuable, to the exclusion of all other changes, and if this quote from a CCP dev is your own justification for that, than you are reading too much into it.
I mean, if we're going to quote one line from a long discussion, and then derive our entire argument from that one line, then I'll just quote "CCP Soundwave wrote: Suicide ganking wasn't designed to be profitable, it's meant to be an option that let's you punish someone else at your expense."
Look, I win. I found a CCP dev saying one line that, taken as gospel, completely disproves your entire argument. Or perhaps, instead of taking lines out of context, we could take as more foundational the stats of the ships as they exist in the game. The mack is unprofitable to gank. The skiff is so tanky as to have no real current purpose. Does this signifiy that ring mining is where the skiff will shine? Does this signify that whichever dev balanced the EHP of the mining barges missed a digit? I don't know, and it's going to take more than twisting one offhand dev comment that doesn't seem to really say what you think it does, to convince me that you do, sorry.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 04:50:00 -
[154] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Maybe you didn't notice what happened to barge and exhumer prices after the patch?
Cheap POS/jump fuel forces Tech prices down?
In what book they said you have to sell your product for cheaper when your expenses go down? |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4961
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 05:10:00 -
[155] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Maybe you didn't notice what happened to barge and exhumer prices after the patch? Cheap POS/jump fuel forces Tech prices down? In what book they said you have to sell your product for cheaper when your expenses go down? Especially when you are holding most of this "natural resource".
yeah because fuel prices are relevant in the price of tech
hint: they're not please leave |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1292
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Posted - 2012.10.04 05:21:00 -
[156] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Maybe you didn't notice what happened to barge and exhumer prices after the patch? Cheap POS/jump fuel forces Tech prices down? In what book they said you have to sell your product for cheaper when your expenses go down? Especially when you are holding most of this "natural resource". Supply and demand is a pretty simple concept. Entire books have been written about it, but it can be summed up in one simple equation:
Economics wrote: value = demand / supply
So as the supply increases, if demand remains constant the value decreases. Though a book may be desirable to understand the nuances, you see the crux of economics is really quite simple. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2012.10.04 05:58:00 -
[157] - Quote
Whichever lunkheaded dev offhandedly said "ganking isn't supposed to be profitable" needs to be kept away their keyboard. And oh man did this honeypot thread work. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1294
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Posted - 2012.10.04 06:01:00 -
[158] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Whichever lunkheaded dev offhandedly said "ganking isn't supposed to be profitable" needs to be kept away their keyboard. And oh man did this honeypot thread work. I just gave you +2. One for the gloat post, and another for the OP.
I keep using it as a surrogate. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:11:00 -
[159] - Quote
Andski wrote:yeah because fuel prices are relevant in the price of tech
hint: they're not
You need POSes to get Tech, right?
OMG, Goons don't even know how to run a business properly... |
Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
261
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:20:00 -
[160] - Quote
Yes yes and 1 million likes to the pvp leet whiner. Go to lowsec and stay there. New inventory: Getting better since version 1.2, but what about back and forward buttons? |
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4964
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:21:00 -
[161] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Andski wrote:yeah because fuel prices are relevant in the price of tech
hint: they're not You need POSes to get Tech, right? OMG, Goons don't even know how to run a business properly...
if the price of tech was based solely on the cost of running a tower then it'd cost 5000 isk/unit
well, it doesn't please leave |
Mokanor Lenak
Republic University Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2012.10.04 06:24:00 -
[162] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: A correctly tanked exhumer was not profitable to gank. Well maybe during the lase hulkageddon when GSF was providing prizes for every 10 kills...
A correctly tanked exhumer before the patch only needed 1 extra 5m isk ship for a gank instead of 1 or 2. Salvaging and modules dropping still made if profitable even without the goons offering ISK for kills. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4964
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:25:00 -
[163] - Quote
Mokanor Lenak wrote:A correctly tanked exhumer before the patch only needed 1 extra 5m isk ship for a gank instead of 1 or 2. Salvaging and modules dropping still made if profitable even without the goons offering ISK for kills.
considering that there were hulk fits capable of tanking 6-7 catalysts in 0.5, well, it seems you're wrong please leave |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:31:00 -
[164] - Quote
Andski wrote:if the price of tech was based solely on the cost of running a tower then it'd cost 5000 isk/unit
well, it doesn't
Well, do it.
After that you guys can offer 50M or 100M for every exhumer kill so gankers get their job back.
Problem solved! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4964
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:33:00 -
[165] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Well, do it.
After that you guys can offer 50M or 100M for every exhumer kill so gankers get their job back.
Problem solved!
yes let's sell tech at cost because that's how you do business, selling things at cost please leave |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
178
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 06:40:00 -
[166] - Quote
Andski wrote:yes let's sell tech at cost because that's how you do business, selling things at cost
It worked last time. All gankers went crazy because someone threw carrots for them. No all gankers feel entitled to profitable ganking. |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
221
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Posted - 2012.10.04 06:50:00 -
[167] - Quote
baltec wrote:...more waffle about TANKING to prevent the GANKING...
s'pose MinerMan tanks like you say he should. ganking still gonna be unprofitable.
what then? then he got too many slots?
so i'm guessing this entire "make my gank easy" charade is purely for educational purposes?
unless...
you displaying a new kind of stupid for telling miners to tank in a "i can't gank anymore sob" whiney thread.
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TharOkha
0asis Group
88
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Posted - 2012.10.04 07:06:00 -
[168] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: No, a well tanked barge was not profitable to kill.
Show me then killmails where were L4 mission runers (or freighters) ganked just for fun (with catalyst of course). You still dont see the problem. Exhumers were expensive paperboats... so "paper" that they were shot just for fun outside the stations, near the gates and in the fields, because gank was extremely cheap. You cannot gank nightmare or freighter in catalyst just for LOL because they have high base HP (unfitted) Exhumers had only hundreds of base HP. Now with standard HP (as any other ship in their class) they are still gankable and profitable, you just need to scan them and search for expensive fits. This was not about "they should tank it" problem. Problem was their base HP.
btw I agree that they need some balancing, because we see macks and retrievers only. I mentioned this in other threads already. 1. Nerf yeld on macks/retrievers (or buff yeld on hulk/covetor) 2. Make ninja miner from skiff (could fit covops cloak)
But dont touch their HP. It would lead to another "shot your barge for lol" in cheap catalyst again. And we dont want that (if you claiming that you shot at them for profit (i have no problem with that)). But there are, and always will be "l33ters" that would shoot them just for fun and show their killmails (and their l33t ego) to friends.
Quote:Why are you defending something that hurts everyone?
When jump fuel costs went down, my profit went up... This can be applied on every aspect in EvE. Try to adapt to situation and make most of the situation Dont stay on your only activity. Spread your activity.
Quote:Cheap stuff means less profit.
If the prices are going down, sell all you assets and hoard isk on wallet. Wait till prices are down = Congrats. you are now super rich. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
baltec1
Bat Country
2357
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 11:26:00 -
[169] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:baltec wrote:...more waffle about TANKING to prevent the GANKING... s'pose MinerMan tanks like you say he should. ganking still gonna be unprofitable. what then? then he got too many slots? so i'm guessing this entire "make my gank easy" charade is purely for educational purposes? unless... you displaying a new kind of stupid for telling miners to tank in a "i can't gank anymore sob" whiney thread.
Or maby, just maby, I like the fact that smart miners get the reward and stupid miners get punished. Just like everything else in this game. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2357
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 11:35:00 -
[170] - Quote
TharOkha wrote: You still dont see the problem. Exhumers were expensive paperboats... so "paper" that they were shot just for fun outside the stations, near the gates and in the fields, because gank was extremely cheap. You cannot gank nightmare or freighter in catalyst just for LOL because they have high base HP (unfitted) Exhumers had only hundreds of base HP. Now with standard HP (as any other ship in their class) they are still gankable and profitable, you just need to scan them and search for expensive fits. This was not about "they should tank it" problem. Problem was their base HP.
They were not killed for just fun they were killed because we were maining bilions in profit from mass ganking the stupids out there who fitted a very poor tank. Seriously how many times do you people need this explained to you?
Hulks were safe from 99% of ganks if the fitted a good tank and when I say good, I mean a tank that made them unprofitable to kill. These are the same daft pilots who put billions in untanked haulers and fit 40+ billion onto a lvl 4 mission boat. The problem with barges was never with their HP. It was the fact that only two of them were ever used and they suffered from fitting issues (not the hulk or skiff). |
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GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 12:01:00 -
[171] - Quote
Oh, gankers have been trying to drive Hulks out of hi-sec by killing them in numbers for how long? The chorus has been loud "tanking your exhumer will deter ganking". Well congratulate yourselves gankers, you won - hulks are an endangered species in hi-sec and miners are flying tanked. Mission Accomplished.
All that remains now is;
- CSM voting should be compulsory - nerf L4 - reduce hisec rat bounties - impose additional taxes on hi-sec player corporations
yea, that should end the whining. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1525
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 12:29:00 -
[172] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:Oh, gankers have been trying to drive Hulks out of hi-sec by killing them in numbers for how long? The chorus has been loud "tanking your exhumer will deter ganking". Well congratulate yourselves gankers, you won - hulks are an endangered species in hi-sec and miners are flying tanked. Mission Accomplished. Yeah CCP definitely helped with that agenda, by doing it for them.
Next up, saving freighters from the stupidity of the people loading them. Gank em, CCP buffs them, the pilots are just as moronic, but the freighter is safe. Op success. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
179
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 13:52:00 -
[173] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Hulks were safe from 99% of ganks if the fitted a good tank and when I say good, I mean a tank that made them unprofitable to kill. These are the same daft pilots who put billions in untanked haulers and fit 40+ billion onto a lvl 4 mission boat. The problem with barges was never with their HP. It was the fact that only two of them were ever used and they suffered from fitting issues (not the hulk or skiff).
So now you want people to fly untanked exhumers... |
March rabbit
R.I.P. Revenge
255
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 14:22:00 -
[174] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Welcome to the reality of ganking and that little world of ganking you thought existed doesn't and never has.
Remember the ice interdictions? It was done for profit.
Every Hulkageddon? Done for the prizes, aka profit.
You honestly never noticed the fact that 99% of barges killed were very poorly tanked or wondered why it was always destroyers doing the killing? We dont give a damn about killmails and tears are simply a bonus.
As for those freighters we are now killing, Yes, its all done for profit. Miners were never any different. Afterall, who do you think benefitted from higher ice and mineral prices? You honestly think we want to see our profits from minerals, ice and all the products that use this stuff go down?
hm... some time ago i made billions from carebearing in droneland... Have never need to whine "waaa, waaaa, CCP!!! Make it profitable!".
Maybe you (gankers) should try another options to make ISK? Eve is wide enough
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March rabbit
R.I.P. Revenge
255
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Posted - 2012.10.04 14:44:00 -
[175] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:TharOkha wrote: You still dont see the problem. Exhumers were expensive paperboats... so "paper" that they were shot just for fun outside the stations, near the gates and in the fields, because gank was extremely cheap. You cannot gank nightmare or freighter in catalyst just for LOL because they have high base HP (unfitted) Exhumers had only hundreds of base HP. Now with standard HP (as any other ship in their class) they are still gankable and profitable, you just need to scan them and search for expensive fits. This was not about "they should tank it" problem. Problem was their base HP.
They were not killed for just fun they were killed because we were maining bilions in profit from mass ganking the stupids out there who fitted a very poor tank. Seriously how many times do you people need this explained to you? There is KM (it can be found somewhere in killboards) where some guy suicided my retriever just for fun. So you can speak only for you and your friends and only for kills you have seen.
People killed miners just for fun. It really happens.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
4800
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Posted - 2012.10.04 14:51:00 -
[176] - Quote
I think the point being made was that as well as being fun it was also profitable. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Medarr
ZeroSec Dragon Swarm Dynasty
41
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Posted - 2012.10.04 14:55:00 -
[177] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Retribution is all about balancing ships and what not, so why not balance out ganking a bit while you're at it? Over the last eight years, ganking has been nerfed nearly into the ground, with only a few select groups of highly skilled, well funded individuals continuing to separate stupid highsec mongoloids from their precious shiny things. Why not buff immoral activity for a change? Reward smart people for taking basic precautions against dying and loss, like not traveling around with billions in their hold, not clicking on the contracts in Jita local, and not traveling the Rancer Pipe with hundreds of PLEX in the cargo bay.
Ganking keeps getting hit with more and more nerfs: pretty soon there won't be that "cold harsh universe" left that CCP keeps going on about in their promos. EVE belongs to the violent, the venal, and the brilliant. Buff ganking. Nerf dumb people.
So we can start with nerfing you... GTFO
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baltec1
Bat Country
2359
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:08:00 -
[178] - Quote
March rabbit wrote: There is KM (it can be found somewhere in killboards) where some guy suicided my retriever just for fun. So you can speak only for you and your friends and only for kills you have seen.
People killed miners just for fun. It really happens.
Everything gets ganked for fun not just miners but the vast bulk are killed for profit. The two events that sparked the miner whines were purely done for profit.
Also you have not lost a retriver in the past year at least which puts you outside of the timeframe when it was discovered how to make a profit on these ships. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
295
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Posted - 2012.10.04 16:20:00 -
[179] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:
But that doesnt mean that we will let mining suffer another decline or allow fleets of mining bots to once again take over.
You should try reporting them like everyone else.
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baltec1
Bat Country
2359
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Posted - 2012.10.04 16:30:00 -
[180] - Quote
Skydell wrote:baltec1 wrote:
But that doesnt mean that we will let mining suffer another decline or allow fleets of mining bots to once again take over.
You should try reporting them like everyone else.
Far more effective to blow them up, pod them and then report them. |
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