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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
33
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 15:34:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, when I said the devblog would be some time in the next week, I actually meant in about an hour but I didn't want to give the game away [edit] For questions about what crimes we're tracking, see devblog. Ok so I read the blog - and my initial opinion is that it is way more complicated then what we got already -- but maybe that is because I am familiar with the old stuff -- but none of it addresses the question of where are the opportunities to obtain aggro? Sure there is a section about taking from cans - but where are these cans anymore? And sure you've tinkered with war dec mechanics, docking rights etc. . ., but so what? How does changing the wardec mechanics, or for that matter, gate gun and pos mechanics and everything else deal with the issue of the diminishing role of the criminal?
Edit - so Ive read it more closely, to become a "suspect" you have to steal from a players container or assist someone who has a suspect flag. How is this helpful when their are so few containers around to steal from?
2nd edit - and was yet another nerf to the orca actually required? All you had to do was change it so that the orca acquired aggro - instead you decided to lock people into the ship they are in - which will result in people not engaging in combat since they cant trade out to meet changing circumstances. |
Myxx
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
604
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Posted - 2012.10.04 16:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Myxx wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Ok, so explain to me under what conditions a starbase with just "attack if aggression" set would fire on a player under the current implementation of Crimewatch, and how you as a player would go about predicting its likely behavior (before we removed that option, of course).
PS For anyone concerned about whether or not we've done any design work for this, I recommend waiting for the blog to come out some time in the next week or so. How do you respond to the accusation you specifically want to make Highsec completely safe with no risk whatsoever? If we wanted to do that then we would've spent a month putting in code that stopped you from committing crimes in the first place, rather than a year overhauling the system that gives interesting consequences for committing crimes. interesting consequences, implying that costs of suicide ganking ships aren't written off entirely by suicide gankers. that isn't "interesting", thats just... an absolute of the system. its a given, its factored into the process of deciding to suicide someone. You *will* lose the ship, so fit it cheaply with the knowledge that its going to explode with an absolute 100 percent outcome. these costs are fully budgeted for and understood by those funding it. it is not considered "interesting" in that respect. it is shrugged at. vOv
interesting would be permitting someone the ability and chance to escape with other punishments, such as being restricted to low or nullsec, or having to constantly dodge concord from then on.
imo current CONCORD mechanics overstep where they should be and it dangerously veers into the realm of there being such little risk that its marginal at best. |
TheGunslinger42
Bite Me inc Elysian Empire
407
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:As noted by Jester/Garth in his recent blog http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/10/know-what-you-dont-know.html there has been alot of hand-wringing about what changes crimewatch is actually going to make. However, truth be told its all an academic exercise at this point as other changes made by ccp in recent time have rendered Crimewatch pointless on arrival. In order for Crimewatch to have purpose there must first be actual crimes for it to impact. What are these crimes? Well in highsec it would be can flipping and ninja salvaging/wreck flipping. CCP, however, has largely eliminated both of these activities from the game. Specifically, the Noctis basically rendered ninja salvaging/wreck flipping obsolete, while the recent barge changes have put can flippers out of business due to the large ore holds of the retriever and mack. So the question becomes, at this point why implement crimewatch at all? Its not needed in low sec where everyone can shot everyone else anyway. While in highsec, CCP has eliminated most points of Player to Player conflicts on a ship to ship basis. Sure there is still suiciding - but concord already takes care of that, and war decing -but that is outside of crimewatch, but every other point of conflict is gone or rendered so marginal as to be effectively the same thing. In fact, IMO the only place where you see the opportunity for crimewatch to have an impact is outside of hubs like jita where there are cans strewn left and right. But these cans are left around solely for the purpose of either gaining consensual fights or ganking newbes who dont know to leave them alone. Hence the implementation of crimewatch will have counter-intuitive effects - it will not add consequences to crime since crime has largely been eliminated through ship design but it will suppress consensual pvp (unless of course ccp adds a flagging system making this even more wow like ) while hurting new players who touch cans and suddenly find themselves aggro to everyone outside of jita. Of course if crimewatch is to have meaning, ccp could make can mining and ninja salvaging viable again by nerfing ore holds and making it possible to tractor other people wrecks, but these changes would probably cause too much whining so its probably better if CCP simply scraps crimewatch before it causes a decrease in whatever little pvp highsec has left.
When it comes to protecting the terrible hisec bears and attempting to recruit the awful wowscrubs a little redundancy can't hurt, right CCP? Eliminate gameplay that they wouldn't like, then make that gameplay "illegal" with stupid over-the-top repercussions. Just to really hammer in the last nail in the coffin.
EVE IS DYING, ETC |
Silk daShocka
Lawn Dart Industries
29
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Posted - 2012.10.04 16:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Am I reading the charts correctly when I say that you can't warp if you have criminal flag in low-sec? for 15 minutes?
edit: nvm, i need glasses |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1548
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:27:00 -
[35] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
In order for Crimewatch to have purpose there must first be actual crimes for it to impact. What are these crimes? Well in highsec it would be can flipping and ninja salvaging/wreck flipping. CCP, however, has largely eliminated both of these activities from the game. Specifically, the Noctis basically rendered ninja salvaging/wreck flipping obsolete, while the recent barge changes have put can flippers out of business due to the large ore holds of the retriever and mack.
Ninja salvaging was never a crime, it's a recognised "career", the Noctis did nothing to curtail the sport of ninja looting, people still warp into missions and empty the wrecks while the mission runner plinks away at the npcs, they still get flagged for it to.
Can flipping is still very much alive and well, Hulks with Orca support still mine into cans, if the Orca pilot is half asleep the opportunity to flip the can is still there, alternatively you can get inventive like this guy did, someone left their drones when they warped off to unload, the guy kindly gathered them up & put them into a can for the owner, then killed the owners mackinaw, with the drones from his own barges drone bay, when they took them back.
Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
Ensign X
325
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:27:00 -
[36] - Quote
To those complaining about the Noctis killing off ninja-salvaging: the buff to mission NPC's will have a far greater impact on killing off ninja-salvaging than the Noctis ever could. |
March rabbit
R.I.P. Revenge
255
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Also, when I said the devblog would be some time in the next week, I actually meant in about an hour but I didn't want to give the game away [edit] For questions about what crimes we're tracking, see devblog. Ok so I read the blog - and my initial opinion is that it is way more complicated then what we got already -- but maybe that is because I am familiar with the old stuff -- but none of it addresses the question of where are the opportunities to obtain aggro? Sure there is a section about taking from cans - but where are these cans anymore? And sure you've tinkered with war dec mechanics, docking rights etc. . ., but so what? How does changing the wardec mechanics, or for that matter, gate gun and pos mechanics and everything else deal with the issue of the diminishing role of the criminal? Edit - so Ive read it more closely, to become a "suspect" you have to steal from a players container or assist someone who has a suspect flag. How is this helpful when their are so few containers around to steal from? contact me ingame. i will drop containers for ya.
On the other hand if you want PVP (read: want to get flag) you can use your alt to drop those cans.
Vol Arm'OOO wrote: 2nd edit - and was yet another nerf to the orca actually required? All you had to do was change it so that the orca acquired aggro - instead you decided to lock people into the ship they are in - which will result in people not engaging in combat since they cant trade out to meet changing circumstances.
risk averse players will always evade risk |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1123
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Crimewatch isn't just highsec. It controls all aggression flags. That red blob in nul? It's red to you because the system tells you so. You're carrier smartbombs enemy drones and hits from friendlies? Crimewatch tells you they are still friendlies and tells your friends your still on their side due to checks in the system. Crimewatch isn't just for highsec dickery. |
Brooks Puuntai
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
825
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
When it comes to CCP and major updates, you should always expect it to be pointless on arrival. That way you don't have to deal with disappointment. |
Crispin McTarmac
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.10.04 16:39:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Specifically, the Noctis basically rendered ninja salvaging/wreck flipping obsolete
That's total nonsense. The appearance of the noctis has had almost no effect on ninja looting whatsoever- in fact a skilled thief can actually use the prescence of a noctis to their advantage. I expect mission looters will be affected least of all by the new crimewatch though, because they don't operate in public places. The most interesting place to watch will be the jita undock- suicide gank loot scooping alts in particular are going to have to be very careful. That place is always swarming with instalocking monsters, so you'd better make sure you're in dock range when you grab the stuff |
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Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 16:58:00 -
[41] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Crimewatch isn't just highsec. It controls all aggression flags. That red blob in nul? It's red to you because the system tells you so. You're carrier smartbombs enemy drones and hits from friendlies? Crimewatch tells you they are still friendlies and tells your friends your still on their side due to checks in the system. Crimewatch isn't just for highsec dickery. Yet the system was becoming so bloated it is effecting large scale fights. With better aggression chains in the system, it runs smoother and it should be a step closer to logi showing up on killmails so they wont ***** kills with drones.
Well maybe they should be all for truth in advertising - instead of calling it crime watch, just call it aggro flagging, cause it hasnt really impacted "crime" in either high or low sec, which is what we were promised it would do.
As for blot - well i dont know if this is going to be easier to run from a lag perspective, but I do know that if you have to read two large charts with the help of a magnifying glass to even beginning to understand what they are doing, then they have failed on their goal of reducing complexity for the players. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1548
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:02:00 -
[42] - Quote
It's not about impacting crime it's about consequences for crime. Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It's not about impacting crime it's about consequences for crime.
Which is exactly the point - why worry about the consequences when there are no more crimes to worry about? High sec is a safe zone for the kiddies. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
153
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:20:00 -
[44] - Quote
low sec: can not board another ship in space....you will not have an income by stealing abadoned ships at gates after the fight.(happens a lot btw). Not everyone has 21 Accounts...many do not even have 2...do the math can not eject current ship...without words can not board another ship from corp hangar...you can not adapt and change your fleet setup during a fight in your home system anymore
just a few points really great work...you are making a lot of friends with that
now I probably have to revise some of my posts in "low sec is broken" threads...you seem to be on a good way to get there
Ah yeah and Thanks to our CSM guys for the headsup... |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1007
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:30:00 -
[45] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It's not about impacting crime it's about consequences for crime. Which is exactly the point - why worry about the consequences when there are no more crimes to worry about? High sec is a safe zone for the kiddies. There are still neutral reppers, which hopefully will be gone once and for all with Retribution.
Orca / carrier tricks gone too (some of those were already addressed). |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9719
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:35:00 -
[46] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Which is exactly the point - why worry about the consequences when there are no more crimes to worry about? No crime is being removed. In fact, some is being added.
Quote:Well maybe they should be all for truth in advertising - instead of calling it crime watch, just call it aggro flagging, cause it hasnt really impacted "crime" in either high or low sec, which is what we were promised it would do. It's called CrimeWatch because that's what it does: it tracks illegal acts and ensure that everyone gets the flags they deserve so other people can do horrible things to them. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1569
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:37:00 -
[47] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Myxx wrote:How do you respond to the accusation you specifically want to make Highsec completely safe with no risk whatsoever? If we wanted to do that then we would've spent a month putting in code that stopped you from committing crimes in the first place, rather than a year overhauling the system that gives interesting consequences for committing crimes. With no disrespect towards the huge amount of work you guys have done and still going to do (hopefully) and probably slightly unrelated to the crimewatch development. No matter how you spin in it, CCP are, moving towards that direction, all these buffs, nerfs, changes, modifications or whatever during the past few months (even years) proves that, or at least to an extent that a lot of players feel that way.
Again, I have a huge respect towards the devs, you guys are probably the best devs in terms of devs-player interaction I've seen during more than a decade of playing MMOs, so, there's that. But suffice it to say, we don't know what were the decisions made internally in CCP during the past few, we don't know whether the CCP executives made the decision to change from a pure and harsh sandbox to a more themepark styled MMO which caters a bigger market share. All we see are the impacts, what you guys did and where we think the game is moving, in which it's very clear. No matter what you, soundwave, or what other devs says.
Just my 2 isk. Please take no offense.
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It's not about impacting crime it's about consequences for crime. Which is exactly the point - why worry about the consequences when there are no more crimes to worry about? High sec is a safe zone for the kiddies. Basically this. Thank you. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1124
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 17:43:00 -
[48] - Quote
Here is the new Crimewatch blog
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73443
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baltec1
Bat Country
2359
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:04:00 -
[49] - Quote
I like everything about this change. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
34
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:10:00 -
[50] - Quote
Tippia wrote:[quote=Vol Arm'OOO]Which is exactly the point - why worry about the consequences when there are no more crimes to worry about? No crime is being removed. In fact, some is being added.
Unless im reading it wrong there is only two ways to get a suspect flag in high sec - flip a can or rep a suspect/criminal. Which means the likelihood of us seeing suspects is already extremely limited and can no way be viewed as an addition of crimes. |
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baltec1
Bat Country
2359
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote: Unless im reading it wrong there is only two ways to get a suspect flag in high sec - flip a can or rep a suspect/criminal. Which means the likelihood of us seeing suspects is already extremely limited and can no way be viewed as an addition of crimes.
This opens up so much more pvp for my battle hauler. I am positivly giddy with excitement! |
Quaaid
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
132
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:26:00 -
[52] - Quote
I do not support this lopsided, anti-pvp approach to aggression mechanics.
Sugar coating Crimewatch is not going to change the fact that you are quite intentionally changing mechanics to reduce piracy and mayhem in high/low sec space. Crimewatch is advertised as making Space easier, it's consequence is making Space safer through massively increased risk and lack of recourse to your common high sec pvp bro.
For shame. |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
36
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:I do not support this lopsided, anti-pvp approach to aggression mechanics.
Sugar coating Crimewatch is not going to change the fact that you are quite intentionally changing mechanics to reduce piracy and mayhem in high/low sec space. Crimewatch is advertised as making Space easier, it's consequence is making Space safer through massively increased risk and lack of recourse to your common high sec pvp bro.
For shame.
This. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
152
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:~crimewatch stuff~
How will Crimewatch affect looting of ganked ships? It seems that this suspect flag change will make ganking harder which decreases risk in highsec, will there be a proportional decrease in highsec reward to compensate for this? Goonwaffe is now recruiting feel free to message me in game for information about joining! |
Karrl Tian
Star-Trackers
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
Welp, that's the end of can dueling (for better or worse). |
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
145
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Hopefully with crimewatch I won't have to loot 20+ cans, each from a different carebear, to get someone to shoot me. One time I looted a can from 3 BS, 2 BC, a Nemesis and a Cerberus all from the same corp and then I bumped them for 15 minutes and nothing happened. So how is crimewatch going to change this? |
Undeniable Chuck
Forced Penetration
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 18:52:00 -
[57] - Quote
The end of station games. Good riddance. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9720
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 19:00:00 -
[58] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Unless im reading it wrong there is only two ways to get a suspect flag in high sec - flip a can or rep a suspect/criminal. Which means the likelihood of us seeing suspects is already extremely limited and can no way be viewed as an addition of crimes. You're reading it wrong. The same ways as now exist GÇö theft, illegal aggression, aiding criminals GÇö and top of that, they're adding a fourth crime that is interfering with a legal fight.
The likelihood of seeing suspects is the same as now, and possibly even increased. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|
Tsubutai
The Tuskers
124
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 19:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
Quaaid wrote:Sugar coating Crimewatch is not going to change the fact that you are quite intentionally changing mechanics to reduce piracy and mayhem in high/low sec space The new system may decrease the scope for highsec pvp, but it greatly increases the scope for lowsec pvp by effectively removing GCC as long as you don't pod people. |
Dirty Wizard
The Geedunk Expedition
40
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 19:14:00 -
[60] - Quote
I'm curious. With the new changes coming, will it still be possible to eject from my T3 ship if I know I'm going to die? The blog mentioned that changing ships will not be allowed when PvP flagged, so I was wondering if that meant just ejecting too. I'd like to keep my T3 skills. |
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