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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
294
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
If they nerf 100% safe cloaking tey gotta nerf 100% safe hidey in stations too. You wouldn't like that. |
maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Angeal MacNova wrote:Quote:So one ping of your Covert Probes and you instantly know how many people are cloaked You've scanned using probes before right? Send out a bunch, position around the system, scan, detect, reposition with a shorter scan range, scan, detect with a greater strength, rinse and repeat until 100% scan strength and only then you can warp there? How is that in anyway a 'one ping and found'? And that scanning is just to track down where they are in the solar system. Once you warp there they will be somewhere within a 50, 100, whatever km range of where you warped in and in who knows which direction. Both range and direction would vary. So then you have to basically wander around with this module active which would send out a ping up to a limited range once per cycle. So then you have the cycle time. 5, 10, 15 sec cycle time. Those at the keyboard can stay cloaked, they just have to periodically reposition and those that can use the covert ops cloak could probably just fly while cloaked to maintain a safe range from the searching ship.
Could not say that better, but this thread will get shut down by outcry and trolling of afk cloakers like every other did.
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maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 09:49:00 -
[33] - Quote
Doddy wrote:If they nerf 100% safe cloaking tey gotta nerf 100% safe hidey in stations too. You wouldn't like that.
Totally stupid argument, you can capture station with enough time and force, you cant do anything to afk cloak. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
449
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
maciek9 wrote:[ Could not say that better, but this thread will get shut down by outcry and trolling of afk cloakers like every other did.
yes. because its the right way to deal with rant threads. afk cloaking isnt because people have fun doing that, its emergent gameplay which evolved from existing game mechanics.
People who start these threads refuse to understand the concept of eve, that space is free for everyone and they have no exclusive claim to any part of space in eve. Everyone pays for the game so everyone is allowed to hang around whereever he wants. This is all right. There wont be safe ratting place in 0.0 free of neutrals - this is absolutely fine. |
maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:maciek9 wrote:[ Could not say that better, but this thread will get shut down by outcry and trolling of afk cloakers like every other did.
yes. because its the right way to deal with rant threads. afk cloaking isnt because people have fun doing that, its emergent gameplay which evolved from existing game mechanics. People who start these threads refuse to understand the concept of eve, that space is free for everyone and they have no exclusive claim to any part of space in eve. Everyone pays for the game so everyone is allowed to hang around whereever he wants. This is all right. There wont be safe ratting place in 0.0 free of neutrals - this is absolutely fine.
Trolling is for people lacking logical arguments. And noone wants safe place for ratting. So far the afk cloakers are the only people that are safe in 0.0. This should be restricted to hi sec space as you said yourself.... |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
449
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
maciek9 wrote:Trolling is for people lacking logical arguments. And noone wants safe place for ratting. So far the afk cloakers are the only people that are safe in 0.0. This should be restricted to hi sec space as you said yourself.... you are either that dumb or got simply absolutely no f*cking clue about 0.0. |
maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:40:00 -
[37] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:maciek9 wrote:Trolling is for people lacking logical arguments. And noone wants safe place for ratting. So far the afk cloakers are the only people that are safe in 0.0. This should be restricted to hi sec space as you said yourself.... you are either that dumb or got simply absolutely no f*cking clue about 0.0.
typical answer of a guy lacking argument. no comment. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
449
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:50:00 -
[38] - Quote
I gave you some arguments why afk cloaking is fine. |
maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 10:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:I gave you some arguments why afk cloaking is fine.
all your arguments were wrong and i stated why they wrong. Then you flamed :P
Ah just to be clear I dont consider afk cloakers to be a big issiue, they are just iritating to not fall to the same set of rules as everyone else in 0.0. Something that is broken and should be fixed. |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Intrepid Crossing
179
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:04:00 -
[40] - Quote
Being cloaked in a system for days or weeks at a time is valid. That said I do not think you should be able to play the game withoutbbeing there to play. Solution.....cloak feedback generator. A pos mod that sends a pulse through system causing all active cloaks to slowly overheat. Does not effect cloaky play as takes 10+ mins to burn out. To stop overheat you decloak and decloak. All cloaker has to do is pay a small amount of attention . Boom. At computer mechanics totally unaffected. Cloaky camping not changed. All you have to do is be aware. Just like your prey. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
449
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:09:00 -
[41] - Quote
its not about cloak, safety end everything else, its actually all on a more trivial level - "You use local against me, I will return fire and use it against you" thing, whilst the latter is being applied very little. There is nothing wrong with that, at least I never encountered a valid argument why this is wrong. |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
345
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Angeal MacNova wrote:Quote:So one ping of your Covert Probes and you instantly know how many people are cloaked You've scanned using probes before right? Send out a bunch, position around the system, scan, detect, reposition with a shorter scan range, scan, detect with a greater strength, rinse and repeat until 100% scan strength and only then you can warp there? How is that in anyway a 'one ping and found'? And that scanning is just to track down where they are in the solar system. Once you warp there they will be somewhere within a 50, 100, whatever km range of where you warped in and in who knows which direction. Both range and direction would vary. So then you have to basically wander around with this module active which would send out a ping up to a limited range once per cycle. So then you have the cycle time. 5, 10, 15 sec cycle time. Those at the keyboard can stay cloaked, they just have to periodically reposition and those that can use the covert ops cloak could probably just fly while cloaked to maintain a safe range from the searching ship.
When you quote someone and reply, its customary to inclued at least the full sentence. Then you can base your reply on the context of that persons statement.
Quote:So one ping of your Covert Probes and you instantly know how many people are cloaked up in your Wormhole.....
Well done, you Just broke Wormholes!
You've been in a Wormhole before right?
Send out a bunch, position around the system, scan, detect..... Nothing else. You now have a list of all the ships in the system (as long as your probes cover the system). Granted you dont have a 100% warpable point to these ships, but knowing they are there and what they are can be enough.
My point stands.... Covert Probes break Wormholes.
Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
10273
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Posted - 2012.10.16 11:30:00 -
[43] - Quote
What game mechanic are pilots using, to interact with you whilst they are AFK?
When you've answered that question, please answer this one.
Why are you not suggesting ways, to reduce that game mechanic's effectiveness?
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Camera Drone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:36:00 -
[44] - Quote
maciek9 wrote:Doddy wrote:If they nerf 100% safe cloaking tey gotta nerf 100% safe hidey in stations too. You wouldn't like that. Totally stupid argument, you can capture station with enough time and force, you cant do anything to afk cloak.
You can do ANYTHING with enough time and force. So stupid argument meets stupid argument. |
NuNu Dagobah
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:41:00 -
[45] - Quote
This idea is bad, and you should feel bad for suggesting it, also, it's been suggested several hundred times, it won't be changed because it's working as intended AFK cloaking is not broken, look to the above posts for arguments
That said, local has to be switched to delayed mode everywhere, not just in W-space |
Camera Drone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:02:00 -
[46] - Quote
I disagree:
Highsec: instant appearance in local
Lowsec: appearance in local when talking in local, locking someone, docking/undocking OR located through an agent locator service
Nullsec: appearance in local when talking in local, agressing someone OR located through an agent locator service
W-space: instant if talking in local, otherwise invisible
that's my proposition
+ encourages d-scan usage + encourages probing + encourages proper intel usage + encourages pvp + encourages use of scouts on a payroll for permanent region scouting |
maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Camera Drone wrote:maciek9 wrote:Doddy wrote:If they nerf 100% safe cloaking tey gotta nerf 100% safe hidey in stations too. You wouldn't like that. Totally stupid argument, you can capture station with enough time and force, you cant do anything to afk cloak. You can do ANYTHING with enough time and force. So stupid argument meets stupid argument.
No you can't find an afk cloaker, therefore only your argument is stupid |
Camera Drone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
You clearly didn't get my point. With enough time and force (as the poster before me stated), you can do anything. Even finding an afk cloaker somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Think of the analogous brute force attacks in cryptography. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_attack )
More realistically, with some 50-ish pilots in fast warping ships, you can sift through a lot of safespots between celestials fairly quick and maybe weed out the more stupid afk cloakers. But if they align anywhere in a random direction, it's near impossible (it's never fully impossible) to catch them. |
maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
Camera Drone wrote:You clearly didn't get my point. With enough time and force (as the poster before me stated), you can do anything. Even finding an afk cloaker somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Think of the analogous brute force attacks in cryptography. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-force_attack )
I get your point, only thing your statement is true only in theory. There are no means to find an afk cloaker in middle of nowhere.
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Camera Drone
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
I have personally managed to decloak a cloaker by bookmarking and warping to several points in between celestials, I didn't manage to kill him though as he wasn't afk :p
My point being: If you aren't paying enough attention to local, then you are allowing an afk cloaker to find himself a decent enough spot to sit in while cloaked. |
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maciek9
Lords of Sandbox Rebel Alliance of New Eden
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Camera Drone wrote:I have personally managed to decloak a cloaker by bookmarking and warping to several points in between celestials, I didn't manage to kill him though as he wasn't afk :p
My point being: If you aren't paying enough attention to local, then you are allowing an afk cloaker to find himself a decent enough spot to sit in while cloaked.
Cool story dude |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
450
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:40:00 -
[52] - Quote
if someone dedicated decides to sit somewhere, where you used to jew, with a cyno, you're f*cked. Thats it. Why should that be different tbh? Why should you have immunity to something like that? There is no reason why... Space is for everyone, for this purpose CCP gave us cloak and cloaky ships. Its all fine and intended. You are afraid of ratting in such systems with other people hanging around there but its a different story and something you have to solve, game mechanics around that are all fine. |
Baroness Vulna
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
26
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Posted - 2012.10.16 13:44:00 -
[53] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:if someone dedicated decides to sit somewhere, where you used to jew, with a cyno, you're f*cked. Thats it. Why should that be different tbh? Why should you have immunity to something like that? There is no reason why... Space is for everyone, for this purpose CCP gave us cloak and cloaky ships. Its all fine and intended. You are afraid of ratting in such systems with other people hanging around there but its a different story and something you have to solve, game mechanics around that are all fine.
Cloaking is wonderful and I never said it wasnt by the way. People who are patient and have the time to sit and cloak and wait for prey they can pounce on MORE POWER TO THEM!
But i will never support players who go cloak in a system, leave their computer and go watch TV, go out of their home and just sit there cloaked. It is a failed game mechanic, it should not be supported and I think my ideas (mainly the destroyer idea) is a fun, balanced way to counter boring afk cloakers and have fun doing it.
/sign |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
626
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Posted - 2012.10.16 14:05:00 -
[54] - Quote
maciek9 wrote:Trolling is for people lacking logical arguments. And noone wants safe place for ratting. So far the afk cloakers are the only people that are safe in 0.0. This should be restricted to hi sec space as you said yourself.... I cherry picked this response from the forest of back and forth rhetoric.
It symbolizes the out of touch perspective being projected onto cloaking.
First off, cloaking is not ratting. It's purpose is not the direct recovery of ISK. It is, in point of fact that is quite established: A COUNTERMEASURE.
Clarifying this point, you must accept that local is being used to gather intel. Do not pretend otherwise, as in a majority of cases local is what informed the local system a pilot was present they could not otherwise know about.
So, the opposing player has flawless intel telling them you are in the system. What are your options to counter this? Blob them? Grossly ineffective. A blob cannot be realistically maintained beyond a certain point, and requires extensive effort. Local in outlying systems allows scouts to instantly know a fleet is approaching. Don't bother against targets that can either dock or log off.
Send a cyno scout? Same problem as the blob. Local makes their presence obvious, allowing potential targets ample time to easily evade them.
It boils down to the real obstacle being local intel. So long as local intel is useful, offensive strikes are handicapped to a level of absurdity. As intel tools go, due to it's flawless reliability and zero effort to use, it is over powered.
And this is why you have AFK cloaking. It is the only means demonstrated to counter this intel source. So long as local reports intel that is not actionable, people are forced to either choose inactivity or risk. That is it's goal.
If you want to remove AFK Cloaking, remove the reason it exists. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Baroness Vulna
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
26
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Posted - 2012.10.16 14:09:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:[quote=maciek9]
If you want to remove AFK Cloaking, remove the reason it exists.
Fine, then remove lazy players with my first idea of giving cloaking devices timers...you too lazy to sit at your computer and PLAY the game like it supposed to be played then your cloak turns off we find you we pop you, done! Next. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
626
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 14:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
Baroness Vulna wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:[quote=maciek9]
If you want to remove AFK Cloaking, remove the reason it exists. Fine, then remove lazy players with my first idea of giving cloaking devices timers...you too lazy to sit at your computer and PLAY the game like it supposed to be played then your cloak turns off we find you we pop you, done! Next. This is backwards, and comparable to a child stuffing their fingers into their ears, and saying, "lalalalala I can't hear you"!
There will be ZERO AFK cloaking to threaten with so long as the intel provided by local stops interfering with PvP.
Defense should require at least some effort beyond watching a chat channel's roster. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Baroness Vulna
Solenus Directive Rieos Coalition
26
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Posted - 2012.10.16 14:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Baroness Vulna wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:[quote=maciek9]
If you want to remove AFK Cloaking, remove the reason it exists. Fine, then remove lazy players with my first idea of giving cloaking devices timers...you too lazy to sit at your computer and PLAY the game like it supposed to be played then your cloak turns off we find you we pop you, done! Next. This is backwards, and comparable to a child stuffing their fingers into their ears, and saying, "lalalalala I can't hear you"! There will be ZERO AFK cloaking to threaten with so long as the intel provided by local stops interfering with PvP. Defense should require at least some effort beyond watching a chat channel's roster.
What? i can't hear you. :)
Actually i have always liked the idea of removing local in nulsec...i mean there is no concord or empire guys to track who is in system anymore right?
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
451
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Posted - 2012.10.16 14:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Baroness Vulna wrote: Fine, then remove lazy players with my first idea of giving cloaking devices timers...you too lazy to sit at your computer and PLAY the game like it supposed to be played then your cloak turns off we find you we pop you, done! Next.
you wont even have to add some kind of cycle timer on cloak if there wouldnt be instant local intel, because people wouldnt be forced to do that - the only reason people afk cloak is to stalk in the chat window, to force you between inactivity or risk because they have no other means to get you killed in presence of such powerful and flawless tool. Afk cloaking comes at huge costs, its not free, it takes a whole paid account being busy all the time, 23/7 to be effective, which denies anything else on that paid account; it takes a lot of energy running a PC, it takes your CPU power which you maybe would need otherwise. You really should understand why afk cloaking is done and required and thats not free kills. |
Astroniomix
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
275
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Posted - 2012.10.16 14:39:00 -
[59] - Quote
Baroness Vulna wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:[quote=maciek9]
If you want to remove AFK Cloaking, remove the reason it exists. Fine, then remove lazy players with my first idea of giving cloaking devices timers...you too lazy to sit at your computer and PLAY the game like it supposed to be played then your cloak turns off we find you we pop you, done! Next. What about black ops? I usualy log my redeemer alt into some nullsec system (idealy shortly before the locals start logging in, but I'm not perfect) and then spend HOURS watching a site waiting for someone to run it. I'm not afk, but the locals have no way of knowing that. So why should I get punished because you THINK I'm afk.
Your idea totally ruins black ops because it forces me to constantly revel my possition (black ops can't warp while cloaked so I'm pretty much stuck in whatever anom I've parked in) thus undoing all the work I had put into setting up a gank that is risky enough as is. (the target could warp away while my gimped sensors attempt to lock them, it could be a bait ship and I get jumped, or that mach I though was pve fit could turn out to be a pvp nanomach and then things get to go south pretty fast) |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
626
|
Posted - 2012.10.16 14:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
Baroness Vulna wrote:What? i can't hear you. :)
Actually i have always liked the idea of removing local in nulsec...i mean there is no concord or empire guys to track who is in system anymore right? The point is, local creates the need to use a countermeasure.
AFK Cloaking did not just happen, it evolved to meet this need.
It only exists to meet the need for a countermeasure to local intel.
(Consider how ridiculous it would be to AFK Cloak while noone knew you were present) Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
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