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Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
91
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Posted - 2012.10.15 20:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been able to implement the formula for perfect ME in an MS Excel spreadsheet. It tells me that for a Caldari Shuttle, requiring 2750 tritanium, perfect ME is 499.
I assume that's correct.
But what about the concept of near-perfect ME? pME-1? At ME 499 waste drops from 2 to 1? But how do I calculate the breakpoint before that? When waste drops from 3 to 2?
I think that may be a useful concept for some blueprints, for the more expensive material types. I just don't have the mathematics to create a formula for doing so. I can brute-force it in Excel, typing in ME values at random to find the breakpoints, but that's hardly elegant.
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
705
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Posted - 2012.10.15 20:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gah. This reminded me that I owe you another spreadsheet reply. Will be up shortly. If I have time I'll come back to this thread as well. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1027
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Posted - 2012.10.15 20:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Short answer: * For 10% base waste on ML 0 BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML0 BPO / 5.5) * For 5% base waste on ML 0 BPO BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / 10.5) * General formula: Perfect = 2 * ase waste * Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / (1 + base waste)
Long answer (see post #18)
Negative ML means the waste is multiplied.
0: 1x base waste -1: 2 x base waste -2: 3 x base waste -3: 4 x base waste -4: 5 x base waste etc. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
91
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Posted - 2012.10.15 20:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:Short answer: * For 10% base waste on ML 0 BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML0 BPO / 5.5) * For 5% base waste on ML 0 BPO BPO: Perfect = FLOOR(Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / 10.5) * General formula: Perfect = 2 * ase waste * Largest material quantity subject to waste on ML 0 BPO / (1 + base waste) Long answer (see post #18) Negative ML means the waste is multiplied. 0: 1x base waste -1: 2 x base waste -2: 3 x base waste -3: 4 x base waste -4: 5 x base waste etc.
Thanks for explaininf negative ML. I didn't know that. I presume negative ML may occur on faction BPC or T2 BPC.
But you misunderstood my question. I'm not asking about perfect ML (or ME as I've learned to call it). I'm asking about the breakpoint that comes right before perfection.
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1027
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Posted - 2012.10.15 20:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
Also explained in links in that same thread.
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1286690&page=1#14
I wrote a Perl script that calculates all ML levels, but only outputs ones where the quantities change, or ones where waste = 0. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
723
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Posted - 2012.10.15 22:00:00 -
[6] - Quote
Perfect for a caldari shuttle is 500 (I think you've possibly got an off by one error)
at 499, you've got 1 waste. at 165 you've got 2.
The problem with trying to get a generic formula for it is the rounding.
Hence why I wrote the blueprint calculator with the slider. Sure, it has a manual step, but it's a 'good enough' solution.
FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1027
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Posted - 2012.10.15 23:56:00 -
[7] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Perfect for a caldari shuttle is 500 (I think you've possibly got an off by one error)
at 499, you've got 1 waste. at 165 you've got 2.
The problem with trying to get a generic formula for it is the rounding.
Hence why I wrote the blueprint calculator with the slider. Sure, it has a manual step, but it's a 'good enough' solution.
Looks fine to me.
FLOOR( 2750 Tritanium / 5.5 ) = 500
or
FLOOR( 2 * 0.10 * 2750 Tritanium / (1 + 0.10) ) = 500 |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
92
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Posted - 2012.10.16 05:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Perfect for a caldari shuttle is 500 (I think you've possibly got an off by one error)
at 499, you've got 1 waste. at 165 you've got 2.
The problem with trying to get a generic formula for it is the rounding.
Hence why I wrote the blueprint calculator with the slider. Sure, it has a manual step, but it's a 'good enough' solution.
I might be 1 off on perfect ME. The rounding issue is tricky, and seems murky to me.
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Lucy Oreless
Raptus-Regaliter EntroPraetorian Aegis
41
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Or you can use BPO-calculator |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
93
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Posted - 2012.10.17 07:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
I've made a brute-force spreadsheet, using all ME intervals from 0 to 40, then after that using intervals of 2, then 3, then 5, and so forth, and checking variout material amount requirements (again, using intervals greater than 1).
According to my spreadsheet, except for quite low ME values, perfect ME for any given mineral amount is approximately X/10. That is, if your blueprint requires 500 Nocxium, then perfect ME for Nocxium is 50.
Much more interesting, the step right below perfect ME is usually X/20 or close to it, thus for 500 Nocxium near-perfect(-1) ME is 24.
And the step below near-perfect ME, NPME(-2), is 16, approximately X/30.
This seems to hold for all material amounts, although the exact value may vary due to rounding.
So, to take the Cormorant BPO at ME0, it requires, sorted by quantity:
9 Megacyte 106 Zydrine 329 Nocxium 1059 Isogen 5056 Mexallon 11745 Pyerite 38861 Tritanium
Let's say I'd like to get near-perfect for Nocxium. 329/20=16.45 (my spreadsheet says 16 for 333 units), suggesting to me that an ME of 17 gets me there. Of course that doesn't get me anywhere near perfect for Tritanium, but wasting a few units of trit may be preferable to spending time and ISK on an enormous research effort. Or maybe I want to go near-perfect on Isogen or Mexallon instead.
Note that I'm not arguing that one should stop calcualting the actual waste, as in units. If you want to produce for profit, you obviously need to know how much you're paying for the raw materials. This is simply a rule of thumb.
Also note that I can't produce myself, yet. I'm only now in the process of training Research, Metallurgy and Production from 4 to 5, so all this is prep work for getting into industry. So when I look at a BPO, I see some figures that are influenced by my skillz |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1032
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Posted - 2012.10.17 15:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
For most purposes, 20 is enough on a 10% base BPO, as that is less than 0.5% waste.
With most modules and all rigs and ammo, perfect is easy to research. Weapon modules are an exception. I usually look for 0 waste on Isogen or Mexallon. Trying to get 0 waste on Pyerite or Tritanium can be a bit difficult.
Ships are rarely researched to perfect, exceptions being capitals (though this takes about a year), frigates, and shuttles. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
927
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Posted - 2012.10.17 22:01:00 -
[12] - Quote
BPO Calc is a GODSEND ! Used it for years. |
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