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redsleeper
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.10.16 07:17:00 -
[1] - Quote
Well, excuse my grammar as English not my first language. I been fly Golem and clear pretty everything including bonus gate. What I ask everyone of PVE veteran opinion who experience fly Golem, Vargu and nightmare for fast mission in Caldari faction with all general mission while sit there and shoot everything with proper trigger and aggro.
Just that, torp missile seem bit boring for me to watch missile fly toward to enemy while make sure rat ship near hull structure before cancel fire torp cycle. Main issue I have, juggle with TP for target while need to cancel fire torp during rats near 35+ range due rat might die or near die like barely alive after cancel torp cycle because I keep check alt salvager (Noctis) for tractor, salvage and loot.
Otherwise, I waste or need single or twice volley torp. For example, I clear AE + bonus gate for about 30-40 minute including salvage and loot plus AFK RL. I clear x4 The Damsel in Distress including salvage and loots plus haul in one hour or less. I really enjoy to use torp when close range of enemies but far range like 45+ That where I start umm.. probaly feel like fall in sleep when watch missile fly and make sure it reach near end hull structure before need to cancel torp cycle.
Golem setup: Classified Implants: most 5 % implants Skills: excellent skills for Golem but will or not work on lv5 skill for just giggle. BC- pop in single volley or two BS- 3-4 volley or 4-6 volley if use jav for damn rats 45+ range since T1 torp only hit up to 45KM or less (really more like 43KM due rats velocity etc..). Frigate- I let my light drones handle, 2 or 3 frigate pop before single rat BS die or 2-3 sec later after rat BS die.
I am not sure but hear about buff patch winter for missile by increase velocity and etc.
I would like to ask everyone PVE veteran, should I keep fly Golem and bearable stare torp volley for 45KM+ range or work on skills for proper fly Varqu with gunnery skills in about I guess maybe 2-3 month ? I have no problem with golem for every mission. What is everyone opinion ? I would appreciate everyone for share some thought. No need concern about setup fitting since I pretty much clear everything with proper trigger and aggro even if mistake kill trigger then I can hold tank for about 4-6 minute before energy cap run out.
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Raiko Osburn
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
4
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Posted - 2012.10.16 08:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
I can't really tell if Vargur is better than Golem as I fly only Vargur. But as Vargur pilot I can say, that it is damn fast mission runner. Angel Extravaganza takes me about 30-35 minutes to complete. What I see as greatest advantage compared to missile boats is you hit your targets almost instantly. You don't have to wait as you do with torps. In most cases I just lunch medium drones to get rid of frigs and low bounty cruisers while shooting BSs. Ammo is only problem you have as there is no high dps kinetic ammunition for minmatar guns. |
Mar Mite
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2012.10.16 08:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Amarr ships like the nightmare will not do you much good in Caldari space - Guristas are terrible targets for laser boats. Nightmare(my preferred mission boat) is awesome in amarr space, but far from great elsewhere. I do have to say though, that I started out as caldari and got used to missiles/torps....until i bought my nightmare - the instant damage of turrets is a massive upgrade from volley counting with missiles. If you plan to stay in Caldari space, then the golem/CNR is about as good as it gets, but a nightmare in Amarr space is much more efficient IMHO.
At this point, i don't understand why people choose Caldari as the de facto boats for missionning, missiles/torps really are crap. Volley counting sucks and is unreliable. The instant damage of turrets is much more predictable and manageable to complete missions faster. I've seen my L4 missioning bring in about 30% extra isk/hr compared to my efforts with caldari hulls since I switched to a nightmare in Amarr space.
FWIW...I have Amarr and Caldari BS IV and I salvage missions with an alt in a noctis. In addition to the Nightmare being flat out AWESOME in amarr space, npc drops and salvage have also seemed a bit more profitable since I moved here from Caldari high sec. |
addelee
The 404
3
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Not flown the Golem but in addition to the above, which I fully agree with (I have a navy apoc which is useless outside of amarr space).
I've taken to a Rattlesnake as my mission running. Mix of cruise missiles and sentry drones makes most missions a quick and easy walk through. Swap the drones out on a mission my mission basis and only pick the ones that do the required damage type (in the case of Worlds Collide, take both types for each NPC type).
It's obviously not a pure caldari ship but it doesn't take long to bump up Galante skills. IMO, the most versatile of the mission running BS's as it deals out about 900dps with a solid tank to boot. |
addelee
The 404
3
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Posted - 2012.10.16 12:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
nvm, quoted rather than edited |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
91
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Posted - 2012.10.16 18:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
redsleeper wrote:Well, excuse my grammar as English not my first language. I been fly Golem and clear pretty everything including bonus gate. What I ask everyone of PVE veteran opinion who experience fly Golem, Vargu and nightmare
Golem sucks. Juggling TPs, abysmal range, fixed choice of rigs (see range).
Vargur is great. However, _all_ marauders have significant problems vs. Guristas, which you'll encounter a lot when missioning in Caldari space. Personally, I'd either try a Navy Raven or another BS with high sensor strength (and possibly drones) vs. Guristas. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1028
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Posted - 2012.10.16 21:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
Golem bad for most missions, horrible vs. Guristas, but great for ones vs. Angels.
Raven Navy Issue is far superior to a Golem if you like missile boats. I also use a Tengu for missions. Lately I've been using a Rattlesnake, and have become very fond of it, but we'll see how the upcoming NPC AI changes will affect that opinion.
Vargur and Machariel are good, but bad vs. Guristas (Minmatar ships are the easiest to jam).
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Cage Man
Evil Guinea Pigs
12
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
I started as caladari and used a golem and tengu. i eventually decided to cross train to amarr and have loved using the NM for a long time. The problem comes when you want to go mission some where other than amarr. Also once you have used turret ships its very difficult to go back to missiles as being able to insta pop frigs and cruisers is awsome... so I have now moved to a macharial, which is also a great ships which I use when shooting anything that is not weak to EM/Therm. I doubt I will go as far as the vargur though. Currently I can only use meta4 800 AC's but the mach still shines.. so my suggestion, get a mach unless you plan to stay in amarr then get a NM as it will outperform the mach against em\them weak rats. |
stoicfaux
1728
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:37:00 -
[9] - Quote
Golem is meh.
As noted, Guristas tend to have ECM and any marauder is going to have issues. A Mach or a CNR would be a better choice. Given the choice between a Golem or Vargur for Guristas, I would go with the Vargur.
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
666
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Posted - 2012.10.17 01:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Golem is still one of the very best mission ships. Vargur is crappy for pretty much everything, if youre going down that route, use a machariel. |
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Raiko Osburn
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
5
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Posted - 2012.10.17 10:51:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Golem is still one of the very best mission ships. Vargur is crappy for pretty much everything, if youre going down that route, use a machariel.
Ehm, what is wrong with Vargur?
Machariel vs Vargur: Mach has 15-20% better dps so it kills faster but you spent 100% more ammo. Mach is very fast. Traveling larger distance is easier. But with latest mission changes, most of gates are max 10km far so it realy is not a big difference. You have to kite rats if you want to avoid incoming damage.
Vargur as marauder has the ability to use tractor beams and salvagers while you shoot your rats. Loot and salvage are in most cases worth same as bounties from rats. You make 2 missions with Vargur compared to 1 mission with Mach ISK wise. Vargur spents half the ammo mach uses. Vargur has considerably better tank than mach..
For me Vargur is best. And with better rats AI, tank will be even more important. Forget numbers, play with ideas, look for solutions. |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
200
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Posted - 2012.10.17 14:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
I really like the golem myself but I find torps although superior paper DPS are not so great. Yes they work but applied DPS is not as good as it looks on paper.
I fly my Golem with T2 cruise missiles. with a rigor and flare rig. Fury torps have applied damage very close to torps, while precision cruise hit every thing except elite frigates(actually do hit them just very low damage). Mostly use drones to take out frigs and elite cruisers, precision cruise for cruisers and BC's and furry for BS's and some times BC's to save reloading. It works very well for me.
I have tried switching to torps but I can not seem to match the completion times I get with cruise missiles. the rigor and flare rigs are the key. they greatly increase applied damage of cruise missiles. This may change when missiles are updated in the winter expansion. But for now I like it, and being able to hit targets +80km away really helps with completion times. So mission rats you can not get within 50km without an afterburner which I rarely fit.
A Raven has 6 launchers, a CNR has 7 launchers, and Golem has 4 that do double damage basically equal to 8 launchers. The only ship I would say makes a better mission boat in Caldari space is a MACH. Expensive but can do 1600DPS with the right set up.
Personally I run a Typhoon most of the time, the micro management makes for an extra challenge, fitting it with T2 guns, T2 missiles, and T2 drones, it has great applied damage. I really like flying it as I fing level 4 missions less boring in it, and it still has great completion times. two set ups dependng on your game style, torps, arttys, and sentries or cruise, AC's, and heavys. both do great damage. it just depends on what range you want. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
92
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Posted - 2012.10.17 16:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I fly my Golem with T2 cruise missiles. with a rigor and flare rig.
If you look at the missile damage formula, you'll understand why two rigor rigs will beat that.
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
670
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Posted - 2012.10.17 21:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Raiko Osburn wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Golem is still one of the very best mission ships. Vargur is crappy for pretty much everything, if youre going down that route, use a machariel. Ehm, what is wrong with Vargur? Machariel vs Vargur: Mach has 15-20% better dps so it kills faster but you spent 100% more ammo. Mach is very fast. Traveling larger distance is easier. But with latest mission changes, most of gates are max 10km far so it realy is not a big difference. You have to kite rats if you want to avoid incoming damage. Vargur as marauder has the ability to use tractor beams and salvagers while you shoot your rats. Loot and salvage are in most cases worth same as bounties from rats. You make 2 missions with Vargur compared to 1 mission with Mach ISK wise. Vargur spents half the ammo mach uses. Vargur has considerably better tank than mach.. For me Vargur is best. And with better rats AI, tank will be even more important.
youre really willing to drop 20% DPS to save a few thousand isk on ammo? yep, your priorities seem to be in order... |
Raiko Osburn
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
5
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Posted - 2012.10.17 21:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Raiko Osburn wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Golem is still one of the very best mission ships. Vargur is crappy for pretty much everything, if youre going down that route, use a machariel. Ehm, what is wrong with Vargur? Machariel vs Vargur: Mach has 15-20% better dps so it kills faster but you spent 100% more ammo. Mach is very fast. Traveling larger distance is easier. But with latest mission changes, most of gates are max 10km far so it realy is not a big difference. You have to kite rats if you want to avoid incoming damage. Vargur as marauder has the ability to use tractor beams and salvagers while you shoot your rats. Loot and salvage are in most cases worth same as bounties from rats. You make 2 missions with Vargur compared to 1 mission with Mach ISK wise. Vargur spents half the ammo mach uses. Vargur has considerably better tank than mach.. For me Vargur is best. And with better rats AI, tank will be even more important. youre really willing to drop 20% DPS to save a few thousand isk on ammo? yep, your priorities seem to be in order...
Oh, you got me wrong my friend. I will gladly give up 20% dps for 100% more profit thanks to loot and salvage. I did calculations few weeks ago. I haul and sell the loot from missions every time Its value rise above 200 million. In most cases it is around the same amount I gain from bounties and mission rewards. Machariel is faster killer, but not better ISK machine. Forget numbers, play with ideas, look for solutions. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
715
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Posted - 2012.10.17 21:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
Raiko Osburn wrote:Oh, you got me wrong my friend. I will gladly give up 20% dps for 100% more profit thanks to loot and salvage. I did calculations few weeks ago. I haul and sell the loot from missions every time Its value rise above 200 million. In most cases it is around the same amount I gain from bounties and mission rewards. Machariel is faster killer, but not better ISK machine.
You're either forgetting or severely undervaluing your LP gains. What conversion rate are you using? |
redsleeper
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.10.17 23:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thank everyone for share some thought about pve mission. Look like I will probaly start work on projectile turret skills since Vargu and Machariel do share on base turret skills. As for NM, once I feel like to move to Amarr Empire then will train laser skills near future.
I will wait and see when winter patch hit live for buff missile before decide if I want to change the ship or remain fly Golem. I am aware about rat AI behavior for switch target during battle. I really depend on drones for fend off rat frigates due Guristas tend to keep jamming for 2-3 min if there x2 or more rat with ability jam.
For example Guristas Extravaganza for last room, during 2nd wave rats along few Dire Pithi Despoiler. I click target Despoiler fast and wait for target lock in for order drones hit despoiler. Otherwise, drones will automically target trigger frigate. That where worse come in, despoiler quick jam Golem and unable to lock target while I have two choice, recall drones and wait for jam duration end like 2-3 min since they have few jammer. 2nd choice, let drone automically target but tend target trigger frigate and cause 3rd wave while stuck jam on golem.
I wait for like 5 minute stuck with jamming even duration jamming soon end then target lock in take awhile scan but jamming kick in again after lock in for 1-2 sec or less while drones fly off and shoot any frigate class (most time not target despoiler). I have to hold tank and handle rat several BS worth 700k+ bounty, several BC and some cruiser. I await .... 5 min passed and drones final clear despoilers for end jamming. I start enrage **** everything. I feel good. That something I am bit worry about AI behavior once winter patch hit live if switch target to drones.
oh well, I will await and see. Again, thanks everyone for post this. |
Raiko Osburn
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
5
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Posted - 2012.10.18 05:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zhilia Mann wrote:Raiko Osburn wrote:Oh, you got me wrong my friend. I will gladly give up 20% dps for 100% more profit thanks to loot and salvage. I did calculations few weeks ago. I haul and sell the loot from missions every time Its value rise above 200 million. In most cases it is around the same amount I gain from bounties and mission rewards. Machariel is faster killer, but not better ISK machine. You're either forgetting or severely undervaluing your LP gains. What conversion rate are you using?
If mach does 20% more damage, lets assume, he also finishs mission 20% faster (ideal situation). So for every 4 missions I do in Vargur, machariel does 5 mission. So 1 mission more and its like 4000 LP+-. Is 4000 LP more than loot and salvage from 4 missions? I don't think so. But again, I can be wrong. So feel free to correct me.
Also I don't do much with LP. Mostly storing them and buying implants, ammo, gyros and tracking enhancers for my personal use (PvP life is expensive :) ). I could make some ISK out of it, but **** happens all the time. It is better to have some backup.
Forget numbers, play with ideas, look for solutions. |
Raiko Osburn
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
5
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Posted - 2012.10.18 05:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
redsleeper wrote: For example Guristas Extravaganza for last room, during 2nd wave rats along few Dire Pithi Despoiler. I click target Despoiler fast and wait for target lock in for order drones hit despoiler. Otherwise, drones will automically target trigger frigate. That where worse come in, despoiler quick jam Golem and unable to lock target while I have two choice, recall drones and wait for jam duration end like 2-3 min since they have few jammer. 2nd choice, let drone automically target but tend target trigger frigate and cause 3rd wave while stuck jam on golem.
I always set my drones to passive when doing GE. This way you are pretty safe. Just target jamming rats ASAP and manualy send your drones to attack. If you fear you want be able to target it before you are jammed again, fit SEBO. I tryed it few times with scan resolution script and it helped a lot. Also using faction ammo helps to kill jamming rats faster. Good to switch to it if you are desperate. Forget numbers, play with ideas, look for solutions. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
92
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Posted - 2012.10.18 06:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Raiko Osburn wrote:If mach does 20% more damage, lets assume, he also finishs mission 20% faster (ideal situation).
Actually, the Machariel only does 9.4% more paper DPS than the Vargur, and the Vargur has better damage application due to its tracking bonus. |
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Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1033
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Posted - 2012.10.18 07:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:I fly my Golem with T2 cruise missiles. Raven Navy Issue: 7 launchers / (1 - 5 * 5% RoF bonus) = 9.33 launchers equivalent
Golem = 4 launchers * 100% bonus = 8 launchers equivalent
Golem losses 25% damage to every defender missile when using cruise, but not when using torps. RNI with cruise loses 14%, but does more DPS overall. |
tib0
korpa pYco The Garden of Eden Creation KIt
2
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Posted - 2012.10.18 10:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
Raiko Osburn wrote:Zhilia Mann wrote:Raiko Osburn wrote:Oh, you got me wrong my friend. I will gladly give up 20% dps for 100% more profit thanks to loot and salvage. I did calculations few weeks ago. I haul and sell the loot from missions every time Its value rise above 200 million. In most cases it is around the same amount I gain from bounties and mission rewards. Machariel is faster killer, but not better ISK machine. You're either forgetting or severely undervaluing your LP gains. What conversion rate are you using? If mach does 20% more damage, lets assume, he also finishs mission 20% faster (ideal situation). So for every 4 missions I do in Vargur, machariel does 5 mission. So 1 mission more and its like 4000 LP+-. Is 4000 LP more than loot and salvage from 4 missions? I don't think so. But again, I can be wrong. So feel free to correct me. Also I don't do much with LP. Mostly storing them and buying implants, ammo, gyros and tracking enhancers for my personal use (PvP life is expensive :) ). I could make some ISK out of it, but **** happens all the time. It is better to have some backup.
Your calculation is correct, only if you can salvage all wrecks while you finish killing rats...if you stay in mission after you finish rats because of salvaging, then you are loosing more LPs that 20%.
I am using mach for missions and i am fine...maybe i will try Vargur, but i dont want to spend time training Marauders to lvl5 |
Raiko Osburn
Malevolent Intentions Ineluctable.
5
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Posted - 2012.10.18 11:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
tib0 wrote: Your calculation is correct, only if you can salvage all wrecks while you finish killing rats...if you stay in mission after you finish rats because of salvaging, then you are loosing more LPs that 20%.
I am using mach for missions and i am fine...maybe i will try Vargur, but i dont want to spend time training Marauders to lvl5
Ofc you can salvage wrecks and shoot rats at the same time. It still takes you some time to chew through 1mil bounty BS. Meanwhile you can clean up the mess. Multitasking is why marauders are best ISK makers. Forget numbers, play with ideas, look for solutions. |
mama guru
Thundercats The Initiative.
58
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Posted - 2012.10.22 17:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Raiko Osburn wrote:tib0 wrote: Your calculation is correct, only if you can salvage all wrecks while you finish killing rats...if you stay in mission after you finish rats because of salvaging, then you are loosing more LPs that 20%.
I am using mach for missions and i am fine...maybe i will try Vargur, but i dont want to spend time training Marauders to lvl5
Ofc you can salvage wrecks and shoot rats at the same time. It still takes you some time to chew through 1mil bounty BS. Meanwhile you can clean up the mess. Multitasking is why marauders are best ISK makers.
Marauders are better for single account mission running. But if you have two accounts you're much better off going with 2x Machariels or Tengus or something like that over a salvaging alt simply because the completion time gets cut in half. ______
EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak. |
Grombutz
Treasures Collectors Solar Citizens
1
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Posted - 2012.10.25 23:38:00 -
[25] - Quote
mama guru wrote: Marauders are better for single account mission running. But if you have two accounts you're much better off going with 2x Machariels or Tengus or something like that over a salvaging alt simply because the completion time gets cut in half.
Blablablablabla.....
it doesn't mean mission will take you 50% less time just because you have 2 dps ships in it. ;)
And now more serious: Sell Golem, buy real ship.
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