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Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.10.18 03:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
A lot of GD at the moment seems to be unhappy about people living in High Sec almost primarily, so I want to legitimately ask what the biggest issues those players have with allowing other players to live in a mostly risk-free environment.
Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?
Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down?
Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH?
Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment?
Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?)
I am legitimately interested in both what the perceived problems are with High-Sec and further what changes such a discussion could lead to in the future. |
Alexa Coates
Red Fleet
214
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 03:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
the real problem is all the assholes in low/null chased everyone out so now they're whining and crying to have everyone forced into low/null so they can shoot them. That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5178
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
yes, to all This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Federation posting cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online posting.
fofofofofo |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
804
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)? If you follow a risk/reward paradigm, then yes, high-sec (grind) income is way too high for the risks that the high-sec individual has.
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down? Bot mining especially.
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH? I don't think that matters so much.
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment? EVE isn't about being safe. At least, that isn't how I see it advertised.
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?) A lot of null-sec dudes have pointed out that their people make money in high-sec and only really fight out in null, and that there isn't much to fight over in null because there isn't good money-making out there. I don't know about you, but that sounds like a big problem. Bigger risks, and having to defend your space, should mean bigger rewards. Nothing Found |
Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote: A lot of null-sec dudes have pointed out that their people make money in high-sec and only really fight out in null, and that there isn't much to fight over in null because there isn't good money-making out there. I don't know about you, but that sounds like a big problem. Bigger risks, and having to defend your space, should mean bigger rewards.
Firstly thanks for the overall great reply.
I actually think this is a really great point.
While I personally feel that there should be some amount of ISK people can earn in High Sec with practically no risk (but much lower than current L4s), if people are coming to high-sec from their low/null homes to make ISK then I think we have a problem. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
805
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:While I personally feel that there should be some amount of ISK people can earn in High Sec with practically no risk (but much lower than current L4s), if people are coming to high-sec from their low/null homes to make ISK then I think we have a problem. Manufacturing is also much easier in high-sec, mainly because of factory slots available. Sov null-sec systems can only have one outpost, unlike high-sec (and even low-sec) systems which may have many.
Timers for towers and such mean that defending sov null is quite easy (or so I read, I'm no expert).
Basically what it boils down to is that sov null needs some serious overhauls in order to make it work again, and high-sec could use a nerf or two to make low-sec more enticing (after FW is fixed, of course). Nothing Found |
Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
This is a fair point. I've often also wondered if a possible solution (or step towards a solution) would be to significantly lower the number of high-sec systems. This would lead to a lot more crowding for manufacturing/research slots in high sec and drive competitors out into low sec.
My other concern is the huge polar difference between high sec and low sec. Currently I feel completely safe in any 0.5 or above system, but the moment I venture into low sec suddenly I am an instant target. There is no middle ground. No place that is a little bit riskier, but where people can dip their toes in (obviously still with fairly low rewards to match to low risk) without getting instantly outgunned by all the old pros.
Obviously this is just a spur of the moment idea and I havn't thought about all the further implications, but something like having systems where pvp is allowed but warp scrablers don't work. Would make mission running/ratting riskier, but with a higher chance of survival. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
805
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:This is a fair point. I've often also wondered if a possible solution (or step towards a solution) would be to significantly lower the number of high-sec systems. This would lead to a lot more crowding for manufacturing/research slots in high sec and drive competitors out into low sec.
My other concern is the huge polar difference between high sec and low sec. Currently I feel completely safe in any 0.5 or above system, but the moment I venture into low sec suddenly I am an instant target. There is no middle ground. No place that is a little bit riskier, but where people can dip their toes in (obviously still with fairly low rewards to match to low risk) without getting instantly outgunned by all the old pros. Already been suggested: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=26049 Good reading. Nothing Found |
Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thanks for the link. Please excuse my lack of research.
Back in 10, reading. |
Piugattuk
CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES
73
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 04:42:00 -
[10] - Quote
In the time I've been here it seems to me that people down under want things that scream, squirms, and make funny noises when you kill them, the satisfaction of killing gives them a sence of control, power, and it assures them that they can dominate, and when people cry by convo it's that charge that surge they get that satisfies their ego, which for me I don't get any satisfaction from buggering others, my satisfaction comes from being the best indy possible, going out on a scavenger hunt to put a puzzle together then sell the whole to others and it gives me satisfaction to meet those demands which for me means get too it collecting, but this is a concept that's alien to them, theres no reward doing indy stuff. |
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Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:In the time I've been here it seems to me that people down under want things that scream, squirms, and make funny noises when you kill them, the satisfaction of killing gives them a sence of control, power, and it assures them that they can dominate, and when people cry by convo it's that charge that surge they get that satisfies their ego, which for me I don't get any satisfaction from buggering others, my satisfaction comes from being the best indy possible, going out on a scavenger hunt to put a puzzle together then sell the whole to others and it gives me satisfaction to meet those demands which for me means get too it collecting, but this is a concept that's alien to them, theres no reward doing indy stuff.
Interesting look into your motivation. Do you think more resources should be moved out to be exclusively in low or null? |
Arduemont
Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
425
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with highsec. |
Praxis Ginimic
Dark Knight Legion Usurper.
54
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
High sec is necessary but I would love to see it choked off. One small region for each empire would be perfect. |
Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:There's nothing wrong with highsec.
I completely respect your opinion. I spend most of my time in High-Sec at the moment (I have more fun ratting in Low-Sec because of the constant threat/adrenaline rush etc than missions in High-Sec but just can't justify how much lower isk/hour I make is compared the L4s).
I am mainly looking at what people think the problems are since there are definitely quite a few who do think that something is wrong. |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
408
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:EVE isn't about being safe. At least, that isn't how I see it advertised.
I had a think about this one and you know, all the advertising I can ever recall seeing is of huge space fleets duking it out in 0.0.
Can't recall any vids showing ganking as a reason to join Eve.
I'm sorta inclined to follow a line of thought that CCP's vision of a cold, dark universe was more about what's "out there" rather than all of Eve itself.
Highsec was perhaps meant to be no more than a jump-off utility and training point, not a residential area.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Praxis Ginimic wrote:High sec is necessary but I would love to see it choked off. One small region for each empire would be perfect.
Interesting idea. Would need to have a huge need to travel between regions (forgive me if there already is one but for casual people like me I generally play within the one area fine) otherwise it might just form 4 little 'islands'. |
No More Heroes
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1466
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
If you read this article here http://themittani.com/features/vision-thing
It gives a really good idea of the problems with 0.0 ~Then, we see the recent changes over the last year to high sec (alchemy, mining barges, the upcoming criminal thing, hell even FW since most everyone made an alt to get in on that too.)
It's like every other area of the game gets sheltered, and coddled and buffed and polished whereas 0.0 gets kicked in the balls. The hardest place to live gets harder. That's my problem with high sec. primary target is broadcasted, put all drones on the warp disruption battery. If you are in a frigate you should be at the gate, who blew up? |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
805
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:13:00 -
[18] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:I had a think about this one and you know, all the advertising I can ever recall seeing is of huge space fleets duking it out in 0.0. Yeah, wouldn't it be great if them null-bears had some **** to fight over? Maybe we should quit coddling high-sec for an expansion and fix ******* null-sec.
Touval Lysander wrote:Highsec was perhaps meant to be no more than a jump-off utility and training point, not a residential area. Too bad no one treats it as such.
Also, if it were intended as such, don't you think it'd be a bit smaller? Also, if it were intended as such, why is the income as good as null-sec income at a fraction of the risk? Also, why is manufacturing better in high-sec? Nothing Found |
Ken Sunji
Perkone Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yay a constructive thread on this topic for a change! Finally!
What it comes down to for me is that I am very much a casual eve player, I enjoy the process of gathering mats, making stuff and selling it, then working out how to make more isk from that profit/where I will get my next deal from. It makes enough to pay for PLEX and for some side projects in investing and some crappy PVP efforts. But thats what keeps me coming back and while I would like to try 0.0, I just havent bothered yet (and have been playing for a year) |
Karrl Tian
Star-Trackers
8
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Karl Hobb wrote:EVE isn't about being safe. At least, that isn't how I see it advertised.
I had a think about this one and you know, all the advertising I can ever recall seeing is of huge space fleets duking it out in 0.0. Can't recall any vids showing ganking as a reason to join Eve.
Yeah, they can't very well make a l337 epic trailer about two guys talking smack while playing station games with neutral logis at Jita.And imagine if the "I was there" guy was trying to narrate how his hands were shaking as locked an AFK barge and hoped he had enough DPS to kill it before CONCORD auto-popped his catalyst.
Although they did make corp infiltration look good at one point. Do not ever gank Merlin pilots! They're a vengeful people. |
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Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:If you read this article here http://themittani.com/features/vision-thingIt gives a really good idea of the problems with 0.0 ~Then, we see the recent changes over the last year to high sec (alchemy, mining barges, the upcoming criminal thing, hell even FW since most everyone made an alt to get in on that too.) It's like every other area of the game gets sheltered, and coddled and buffed and polished whereas 0.0 gets kicked in the balls. The hardest place to live gets harder. That's my problem with high sec.
Good read. I really really liked the analogy at the end about how the smaller battles over infrastructure was the lifeblood of 0.0.
To me it brings up some interesting thoughts about ganking ('putting peasants to the sword') vs fighting over a resource. I would say overall ganking isn't my favorite game mechanic. Bit of fun for the ganker but seems like more of a 'lol, got you noob' victory, and really not a whole lot of fun for the gankee.
Fighting for a resource sounds a bit more fun to me (could just be personal preference).
Imagine if while mining I was able to set up some form of non-permanent personal defence. Only hangs around while I'm on grid, protects me from getting ista-gibbed so I have a chance to get away, but if I don't get away I'm going to die. If I run the aggressor gets a small win from driving me from my resource (plus loot or whatever from my defence that was left behind), if I dont run I die, or the third option where it would buy enough time for friendlies to actually come to my defence.
Again this is all just off the top of my head thoughts (probably been covered elsewhere) and I havn't considered the full implications of systems like this.
Maybe I just sound like a carebear, but I do like the idea of promoting engagements that arn't so one sided as ganks and giving ratters/miners/explorers tools to do their job in riskier environments without having to run at the first sign of a slightly bigger fish. Might just attract a few more people out of high-sec. |
Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
66
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Well not speaking as a lowsec based player, but as a cov-ops pilot based in hisec (+trader) with little to no problem getting around 90% of the galaxy, I see #1 agitation for lowsec players being the lack of targets, especially 1v1 fights. It's nothing new, saw the long fight over it when they split tram/fel in UO. Even with 2x the reward to go to fel, it was still a ghost town (I know, my guild did most of our stuff in fel on the most populated server). Same situation here. It's pretty much a pvp argument just like "balancing" is about pvp for the most part, which was the same for UO as well regarding all the calls for nerfing.
CCP isn't deaf to the cries, which is a big reason they have been using FW as a carrot(LP/ISK faucet) to bring more targets into losec. FW PvP ships as traditional, but now mission runners, and soon industrials. No protest from me if FW was being crafted to be fun like the SWG GCW was (was awesome pre-CU, TEF and all), but it's just an ISK faucet here :(
But yeah, it's mostly about pvp in lowsec. No new revelations there. |
Bane Necran
542
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 05:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
They hate our freedoms. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Omega Sunset wrote:Well not speaking as a lowsec based player, but as a cov-ops pilot based in hisec (+trader) with little to no problem getting around 90% of the galaxy, I see #1 agitation for lowsec players being the lack of targets, especially 1v1 fights. It's nothing new, saw the long fight over it when they split tram/fel in UO. Even with 2x the reward to go to fel, it was still a ghost town (I know, my guild did most of our stuff in fel on the most populated server). Same situation here. It's pretty much a pvp argument just like "balancing" is about pvp for the most part, which was the same for UO as well regarding all the calls for nerfing.
CCP isn't deaf to the cries, which is a big reason they have been using FW as a carrot(LP/ISK faucet) to bring more targets into losec. FW PvP ships as traditional, but now mission runners, and soon industrials. No protest from me if FW was being crafted to be fun like the SWG GCW was (was awesome pre-CU, TEF and all), but it's just an ISK faucet here :(
But yeah, it's mostly about pvp in lowsec. No new revelations there.
More targets in low does seem (in my opinion) to be one of the major drivers for trying to get people out of high. I'm wondering if the answers lie in low sec as well. By making certain tasks safer (read still not 100% safe like high-sec) for the PvEer in lowsec it is likely to increase the number of targets. Hopefully this sounds like a good think for those currently in low sec.
One example of this is the concerns some gankers raised about AI targeting, specifically they were worried that if the rats target them instead of the ratter it will make ganking harder. Making ganking harder will be a positive force for getting more people into low sec, increasing the number of targets. Sure the targets might be harder to kill, but would people agree it may be more fun having more targets to choose from, getting to decide if attacking is worth the risk every now and then? |
Davis TetrisKing
Aliastra Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bane Necran wrote:They hate our freedoms.
One man's freedom not to be shot removes another man's freedom to shoot whoever they want |
Omega Sunset
Caldari Roughnecks
66
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:Omega Sunset wrote:Well not speaking as a lowsec based player, but as a cov-ops pilot based in hisec (+trader) with little to no problem getting around 90% of the galaxy, I see #1 agitation for lowsec players being the lack of targets, especially 1v1 fights. It's nothing new, saw the long fight over it when they split tram/fel in UO. Even with 2x the reward to go to fel, it was still a ghost town (I know, my guild did most of our stuff in fel on the most populated server). Same situation here. It's pretty much a pvp argument just like "balancing" is about pvp for the most part, which was the same for UO as well regarding all the calls for nerfing.
CCP isn't deaf to the cries, which is a big reason they have been using FW as a carrot(LP/ISK faucet) to bring more targets into losec. FW PvP ships as traditional, but now mission runners, and soon industrials. No protest from me if FW was being crafted to be fun like the SWG GCW was (was awesome pre-CU, TEF and all), but it's just an ISK faucet here :(
But yeah, it's mostly about pvp in lowsec. No new revelations there. More targets in low does seem (in my opinion) to be one of the major drivers for trying to get people out of high. I'm wondering if the answers lie in low sec as well. By making certain tasks safer (read: still not 100% safe like high-sec) for the PvEer in lowsec it is likely to increase the number of targets. Hopefully this sounds like a good think for those currently in low sec. One example of this is the concerns some gankers raised about AI targeting, specifically they were worried that if the rats target them instead of the ratter it will make ganking harder. Making ganking harder will be a positive force for getting more people into low sec, increasing the number of targets. Sure the targets might be harder to kill, but would people agree it may be more fun having more targets to choose from, getting to decide if attacking is worth the risk every now and then? EDIT: also please excuse my ignorance but I am unfamiliar with most of the acronyms in the second paragraph (SWG GCW? CU? TEF?). Oh yeah, I edited that in about nulsec before catching your reply. I mean I just don;t have it in me any longer for the politics, long before coming to EVE.
GCW is Galactic Civil War. It was the FW system of SWG. Including FW player cities and FW bases at their heart. TEF is temporary enemy faction. So if a non-faction player attacked a faction mob, such as a stormtrooper, they would be flagged as a faction player for an amount of time allowing enemy faction players to attack them at will. Also being covert in a faction, and a faction npc/mob searched you, you would be flagged as TEF and attackable. |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
639
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:24:00 -
[27] - Quote
Davis TetrisKing wrote:A lot of GD at the moment seems to be unhappy about people living in High Sec almost primarily, so I want to legitimately ask what the biggest issues those players have with allowing other players to live in a mostly risk-free environment.
Can people make more ISK/hour than you think they should (L4s etc)?
Do people think that semi-afk mining is an issue as it potentially drives mineral prices down?
Do people want more targets to shoot in low/null/WH?
Should no-one in eve be allowed to play in a relatively risk free (from a ship getting blown up standpoint) environment?
Do people feel that if something can be done in High-Sec there is no point even bothering to do that activity in Low/Null/WH? (and also is this inherently a bad thing?)
I am legitimately interested in both what the perceived problems are with High-Sec and further what changes such a discussion could lead to in the future. It has nothing to do with money making , it is a fact that ratting , anomolies etc in nulsec can earn you more in a day than what a high sec missionrunner makes in a week aslong you put effort into it
Most people who moan about high sec are these socalled ' elite 'PVPers and zealots who keep demanding that they should have the absolute right to shoot anybody in high sec without any penalty,, they the ones you hear whinning about highsec the most on here
they are a minority but a loud one key word is effort , if people can't be bothered working for the goals they set themselves , doesn't matter if it is industry, pve, pvp , you will not go far int this game I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Imports Plus
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
This is the problem with high sec http://i.imgur.com/Zz9Eh.jpg
THIS RIGHT HERE- BEHOLD WHAT YOU HAVE DONE CCP |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
408
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:34:00 -
[29] - Quote
No More Heroes wrote:If you read this article here http://themittani.com/features/vision-thingIt gives a really good idea of the problems with 0.0 ~Then, we see the recent changes over the last year to high sec (alchemy, mining barges, the upcoming criminal thing, hell even FW since most everyone made an alt to get in on that too.) It's like every other area of the game gets sheltered, and coddled and buffed and polished whereas 0.0 gets kicked in the balls. The hardest place to live gets harder. That's my problem with high sec. what? 0.0 is trash, broken, boring, too hard, too whatever bla bla.
And that's your problem with highsec?
Well I'll be...... "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
|
Imports Plus
State War Academy Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 06:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:No More Heroes wrote:If you read this article here http://themittani.com/features/vision-thingIt gives a really good idea of the problems with 0.0 ~Then, we see the recent changes over the last year to high sec (alchemy, mining barges, the upcoming criminal thing, hell even FW since most everyone made an alt to get in on that too.) It's like every other area of the game gets sheltered, and coddled and buffed and polished whereas 0.0 gets kicked in the balls. The hardest place to live gets harder. That's my problem with high sec. what? 0.0 is trash, broken, boring, too hard, too whatever bla bla. And that's your problem with highsec? Well I'll be......
The risk vs. rewards are clearly skewed, but thats ok- defend your afk botting empire to the death! |
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