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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
439
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:19:00 -
[121] - Quote
As an aside too Zim.
I setup and ran 5 towers when I was in FA - that's 0.0 FA - you know, the Zagdul run alliance.
It came down to
1) We asked - Loquitur said no probs. 2) We did - CEO gave us the roles because he TRUSTED us. 3) We bought and transported our stuff via alliance logistics. 4) We found our own resources - we set up all the PI and mined the ice ourselves.
Once we established the corp getting the moon goo we set about making production etc. out of remaining PG/CPU.
The point is - we NEVER blamed station inability to do stuff... We just got off our ass and did it. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
381
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:28:00 -
[122] - Quote
I have recently scanned a whole region of new eden for JBs, CGs and stuff
i have come around exactly three systems with notable industrial activity in there, one had 4 CSAAs, another LOADS of reaction posses and the third one had a large scale ammunition production running
there are so many reasons to not produce in 00, and bad pos and corp management tools are only one of them |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
439
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:33:00 -
[123] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:I have recently scanned a whole region of new eden for JBs, CGs and stuff
i have come around exactly three systems with notable industrial activity in there, one had 4 CSAAs, another LOADS of reaction posses and the third one had a large scale ammunition production running
there are so many reasons to not produce in 00, and bad pos and corp management tools are only one of them Yep. Many reasons why you might not. And yep. POS and corp management just makes it harder.
However, the ones DOING it aren't the ones whining about it. They're just ..... DOING it.
It can ALSO be done safely and easily in highsec. The CHOICE not to do it in 0.0 (or even in highsec) is I DEMANDZ EAZYMODEZ.
iDemand V 2.0 - easymode is easymode - no matter how many times you try to twist it.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Lord Zim
1810
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:35:00 -
[124] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Lord Zim wrote: - Requires POS roles, check - Requires a fairly hefty investment to begin with - Is a massive hassle, check - Costs a lot more to run, check - Is incapable of making as many things in one run as a station is, check - Is limited by the number of moons, check
1) Corp issue. Alliance neccessity of group passwords on POS's make this a problem it doesn't need to be. 2) Highseccers do it all the time. C'mon 200m or so? 3) Lazy SOB. Highseccers do it all the time. 4) Even solo highseccers do it all the time no problems with low-yield ice and PI. 5) A POS easily accommodates the limit of personal build slots. (10 as a maxed char) Nothing to do with stations. 6) Alliance issue. Half the time people won't settle for a crap moon just to build stuff. The problem is about control at the highest levels. Not ability to do so. Always been that way. Yes, I agree, POS roles etc. COULD be much better but it ISN'T a reason for it not being able to be done. 1) Not a corp issue, a CCP design issue. 2) 285m for a large, whatever for all the components, 450m/month for fuel, whatever for the cost of shipping in said fuel (or time spent mining it) and the cost of shipping in minerals (or time spent mining it) 3) Oh really, all the hisec guys I know of use stations since they're cheap and hassle-free. 4) So you're trying the age-old fallacy of "my time is free, therefore the POS is free"? Well, that certainly sets a new low for this discussion. 5) I wasn't talking about number of simultaneous jobs, I was talking about number of consecutive items. You can't setup up to 30 days of maelstrom production pr line. 6) Nope, it's a **** design issue.
Now compare all this (and yes, I'm going to include you actually spending time :laffo: mining the ice and doing PI to keep the POS fuelled instead of doing other, more lucrative things or winning at eve), to staying logged out for much longer or making more money doing literally anything else, spending 2k pr maelstrom in manufacturing costs and 1m in import costs (or less if you use your own JF vOv) ... and you'd be literally dumb as all hell to not just build it in hisec and import it and spend the rest of the time doing things which aren't as mindnumbingly boring and unprofitable as ice mining and PI just to keep the towers running.
But hey, pat yourself on the back for doing lots more work than I have to, to achieve exactly the same result, at a higher price! Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Reckless Ambition
367
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:49:00 -
[125] - Quote
Remove local.
Stealth Bomber bombs and covert-bridging in hisec naow, please: It's the only way to make sure! |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
439
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:53:00 -
[126] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote: But hey, pat yourself on the back for doing lots more work than I have to, to achieve exactly the same result, at a higher price!
Zimmy baby. I've refuted the BS argument about indy in 0.0. It CAN be done. It IS done.
It is ALSO done in highsec - by many - EXACTLY the same way - and profitably.
Issues about YOU being trusted in your corp is for YOU to sort and the fact that ALL the people YOU know do it in stations says everything about the the people you know and less about the task.
450m, 500m, 1b isk - whatever. It's monopoly money. How much you lose on a gank? Oh right. NOTHING. It's paid for. How much you lose on CTA's - oh right, nothing. It's paid for. You got plenty of money unless you spend more time tickling little digits in a spreadsheet than just DOING it.
TRY WORKING FOR YOUR ISK LIKE MOST HIGHSEC PEOPLE DO.
And POS costs. 450m a month!!! **** off. PI is passive and a half a day with a couple of mates mining hard will do a month of fuel. What are you paying yourself, 50m isk a minute or you using the NEW interdiction prices for your spreadsheet? lolz.
And "must have" 30 day production line!! What?!??! What are we talking about here, 20 seconds to start a job every couple of days. ffs!!
Your excuses for being a lazy SOB are just that - excuses.
Keep bringing it. If anyone is even remotely interested in this topic now - they can now start to see the BS it always was. Best you stop and save yourself the indignity of looking more stupid.
Whatever, just get yer hand off it.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
688
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:58:00 -
[127] - Quote
Every once in a while I wonder what it's like to see what it's like to see someone jabber on about a subject they literally haven't got the foggiest notion about: so I log into the Eve-O forums and click on pretty much any thread and BOOM.
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
688
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 03:59:00 -
[128] - Quote
I for one can't wait till we give POS roles to every spy, publord and J4G. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
439
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 04:08:00 -
[129] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Every once in a while I wonder what it's like to see what it's like to see someone jabber on about a subject they literally haven't got the foggiest notion about: so I log into the Eve-O forums and click on pretty much any thread and BOOM.
See post 121. TL;DR: Been there. Done it.
If YOU and your mates are incapable. So be it.
Quote:I for one can't wait till we give POS roles to every spy, publord and J4G. POS roles is a CORP issue. NOTHING says you can't swing a small indy corp inside the alliance ( as MANY DO ) and do EVERYTHING I just outlined.
It's either lack of ability, lack of desire or just plain lazy. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Lord Zim
1811
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 04:09:00 -
[130] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Zimmy baby. I've refuted the BS argument about indy in 0.0. It CAN be done. It IS done. No, you haven't refuted anything. I haven't said it's impossible to do in a POS, all I've said is that it's vastly less profitable and a lot more work than doing it in hisec and shipping it in, which means that you're being dumb for doing it that way.
I spent 1-2 hours purchasing and hauling minerals, setting up build orders, waited for a while, hauled it all back and put up a courier contract. You spent how long icemining and doing PI just to keep the POS running per month?
Touval Lysander wrote:It is ALSO done in highsec - by many - EXACTLY the same way - and profitably. So they spent anything from 372k to 1.9m extra in build costs (depending on whether or not you use a small, medium or large) per maelstrom (+ whatever cost the downtime between runs cost you), and I spend 2k pr maelstrom. That means I've got a nice extra margin over them, so I can drive them out of the market easier. vOv
Touval Lysander wrote:Issues about YOU being trusted in your corp is for YOU to sort and the fact that ALL the people YOU know do it in stations says everything about the the people you know and less about the task. Let's take goonswarm as an example. It's more than 3000 people. If everyone should have their own personal POS to build in, that's more POSes than there are moons in all of deklein (there are 2994 moons in deklein).
Yeah, this scales well.
Touval Lysander wrote:And POS costs. 450m a month!!! **** off. PI is passive and a half a day with a couple of mates mining hard will do a month of fuel. What are you paying yourself, 50m isk a minute or you using the NEW interdiction prices for your spreadsheet? lolz. Amarr large is 14397 isk pr block, caldari is 12423 isk pr block, gallente 15787 isk and minmatar 14494,2 isk. That equates to 414633600, 357782400, 454665600 and 417432960, respectively.
Touval Lysander wrote:And "must have" 30 day production line!! What?!??! What are we talking about here, 20 seconds to start a job every couple of days. ffs!! What I say: "you can't setup". What you read: must have. vOv Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
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SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
690
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 04:46:00 -
[131] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote: POS roles is a CORP issue. NOTHING says you can't swing a small indy corp inside the alliance ( as MANY DO ) and do EVERYTHING I just outlined.
It's either lack of ability, lack of desire or just plain lazy.
Yes, we've sure shown we don't know how to setup pos. But you have me on the desire front because I simply can't see going through all the trouble of setting up POS to do industry work when I can import for considerably less isk. Until it becomes cheaper to build than it does to buy, which should be the aim of any revamps: This discussion is stupid. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
439
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 04:47:00 -
[132] - Quote
One of the "null is broken" arguments is that indy MUST be buffed because of station slot shortfall.
It's a false need.
However, if you want to argue
1) Ease of use (lazy) 2) Pathetic difference on margin (cheapskate or a-retentive?) 3) Hand held production (soft) 4) Easymode (soft and lazy) 5) Ice prices quoted at peak of an interdiction (caused by?) 6) 2,994 moons for 3,000 members (what - a PRIVATE POS for EVERYONE given that nearly everyone has multiple alts and what % won't even do production - duh) 7) Can't setup for 30 days. Sure. I can't setup for 50, 60 days w/e at the same time either (like, pick a number)
Then you're correct - I can't argue with you - you're correct.
The problem is iDemand v2.0 - still.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
439
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 04:55:00 -
[133] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:I simply can't see going through all the trouble of setting up POS to do industry work when I can import for considerably less isk. Until it becomes cheaper to build than it does to buy, which should be the aim of any revamps: This discussion is stupid. So you're saying you'd rather do it yourself than simply buy it because it's cheaper and Eve is broken because of it?
Or make everything so expensive until it becomes neccessary to do it yourself?
Why the **** would you?
CCP - fix Eve because I MUST BE ALLOWED to do it the hard way.
oh my. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Lord Zim
1811
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 04:55:00 -
[134] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:One of the "null is broken" arguments is that indy MUST be buffed because of station slot shortfall. It's a false need. However, if you want to argue 1) Ease of use (lazy) 2) Pathetic difference on margin (cheapskate or a-retentive?) 3) Hand held production (soft) 4) Easymode (soft and lazy) 5) Ice prices quoted at peak of an interdiction (caused by?) 6) 2,994 moons for 3,000 members (what - a PRIVATE POS for EVERYONE given that nearly everyone has multiple alts and what % won't even do production - duh) 7) Can't setup for 30 days. Sure. I can't setup for 50, 60 days w/e at the same time either (like, pick a number) Then you're correct - I can't argue with you - you're correct. The problem is iDemand v2.0 - still. Number of moons in deklein: 2994 Number of people in GSF: 8873 Number of people in TNT: 1267
Total number of moons required if everyone should have their own POS: 10140. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Lin Fatale
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 12:03:00 -
[135] - Quote
1. analyse the starmap/galaxy how could you change the map / gates / pipes / high / lowentries - to force more conflicts - less force projection - less alliance blocks (one entrysystem and the 15 regions behind it are blue)
2. alliance/corp income should be mainly based on player income
3. give players some kind of castle building -remove stations --> use modular POSes --> every player can build a pos and is able to "connect" them to other POSes of other players so my corp is able to build some kind of station through connecting player owned modules --> if I as a player (not corp or alliance) want to have a better refining ratio, then i will buy a upgrade for xxx ISK and get +0,xx better refining something --> if I think that our corp castle should have more HP or more guns or a supercapital dock then I as a player should be able to upgrade it
4. cyno / supercap / sov mechanics I just hope CCP knows that it is **** atm |
Bernard 2007
The Scarlet Storm
1
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 12:38:00 -
[136] - Quote
Hans Zwaardhandler wrote:Alright, this thread exploded pretty quickly. I'm interested in the replies, but why is it everyone wants local to be removed in null?
Most people are not interested in having nullsec local removed. ;) Only a few wanna-be-pros do. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
237
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 14:49:00 -
[137] - Quote
Bernard 2007 wrote:Hans Zwaardhandler wrote:Alright, this thread exploded pretty quickly. I'm interested in the replies, but why is it everyone wants local to be removed in null? Most people are not interested in having nullsec local removed. ;) Only a few wanna-be-pros do.
I personally don't feel like needing to combat scan every system for 30 jumps at a time.
Its a bit easier in wormholes the most I have ever found tagged together was 6, and all of those holes weren't statics. So yeah hell with that noise. |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1050
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:20:00 -
[138] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Zimmy baby. I've refuted the BS argument about indy in 0.0. It CAN be done. It IS done.
No you haven't, all you've proven is that you personally don't understand how a business fucntions and that you personally have wasted HUNDREDS of man hours and probably millions of isk doing a job inefficeintly.
Your way costs more, is slower, is more work intesive. Does it work, yet, but is it inferior in EVERY SINGLE WAY to just building in high sec and shipping things out? Yes, yes it is.
Thats not good buisiness and isn't going to attract people to the profession of 0.0 manufacturing, because the profit margins on builds are already so small that after you factor in all your time, effort, and added resources (unless you consider your time working as 'free' in which case you obviously have no clue about how business works) that come with working out of a pos compared to Empire manufacturing and shipping there literally no money to be made at it.
Not to mention, that unless you were running 40 pos's theres no way you could keep pace with an industrialist working out of Empire who's shippping his goods to 0.0.
You need to remember you're looking at a player base that min/maxes everything, and if there is no profit in it the larger portion of the player base simply can't be bothered with it.
You are absolutely the first person to ever step up and say that 0.0 manufacturing is fine, and I'm sorry to tell you that in this case, when you say the sky is green and everybody else tells you its blue, you happen to be wrong, and not just "special". |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
2513
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:27:00 -
[139] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Zimmy baby. I've refuted the BS argument about indy in 0.0. It CAN be done. It IS done.
No you haven't, all you've proven is that you personally don't understand how a business fucntions and that you personally have wasted HUNDREDS of man hours and probably millions of isk doing a job inefficeintly. Your way costs more, is slower, is more work intesive. Does it work, yet, but is it inferior in EVERY SINGLE WAY to just building in high sec and shipping things out? Yes, yes it is. Thats not good buisiness and isn't going to attract people to the profession of 0.0 manufacturing, because the profit margins on builds are already so small that after you factor in all your time, effort, and added resources (unless you consider your time working as 'free' in which case you obviously have no clue about how business works) that come with working out of a pos compared to Empire manufacturing and shipping there literally no money to be made at it. Not to mention, that unless you were running 40 pos's theres no way you could keep pace with an industrialist working out of Empire who's shippping his goods to 0.0. You need to remember you're looking at a player base that min/maxes everything, and if there is no profit in it the larger portion of the player base simply can't be bothered with it. You are absolutely the first person to ever step up and say that 0.0 manufacturing is fine, and I'm sorry to tell you that in this case, when you say the sky is green and everybody else tells you its blue, you happen to be wrong, and not just "special".
You just got Grath'd. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
142
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:29:00 -
[140] - Quote
The same people that manipulated FW for trillions of ISK and coincidentally happen to be some of the richest players in Eve: Spreadsheets Online have run the numbers on nullsec versus highsec production and come to the conclusion that highsec production is, and this is a scientifically reproducible number derived from a simple set of calculations, "bazillions of times better" than nullsec for manufacturing. |
|
Fix Lag
350
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:33:00 -
[141] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Lord Zim wrote: But hey, pat yourself on the back for doing lots more work than I have to, to achieve exactly the same result, at a higher price!
Zimmy baby. I've refuted the BS argument about indy in 0.0. It CAN be done. It IS done. It is ALSO done in highsec - by many - EXACTLY the same way - and profitably. Issues about YOU being trusted in your corp is for YOU to sort and the fact that ALL the people YOU know do it in stations says everything about the the people you know and less about the task. 450m, 500m, 1b isk - whatever. It's monopoly money. How much you lose on a gank? Oh right. NOTHING. It's paid for. How much you lose on CTA's - oh right, nothing. It's paid for. You got plenty of money unless you spend more time tickling little digits in a spreadsheet than just DOING it. TRY WORKING FOR YOUR ISK LIKE MOST HIGHSEC PEOPLE DO. And POS costs. 450m a month!!! **** off. PI is passive and a half a day with a couple of mates mining hard will do a month of fuel. What are you paying yourself, 50m isk a minute or you using the NEW interdiction prices for your spreadsheet? lolz. And "must have" 30 day production line!! What?!??! What are we talking about here, 20 seconds to start a job every couple of days. ffs!! Your excuses for being a lazy SOB are just that - excuses. Keep bringing it. If anyone is even remotely interested in this topic now - they can now start to see the BS it always was. Best you stop and save yourself the indignity of looking more stupid. Whatever, just get yer hand off it.
this right here is the greatest quote in all of pubbiedom
hahaha oh my god
you are so goddamn poor
and it's because you're so, so dumb
this is glorious |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
47
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:52:00 -
[142] - Quote
- Instant local is a system upgrade. - Roaming gangs can "burn" upgrades (maybe a FW complex system, though that's horrible any way) So when people roam into your space you actually have to go and fight instead of dock and wait until they move on. If you don't fight them they can screw up your system. - More upgrades and options to make it feel like your own empires space (gate/station guns) - More reason to be self reliant and not return to empire for all your shopping - Meaningful trade routes between alliances or neutrals. - Ability to higher agents for your stations which others can use (most use in NRDS space)
Generally make it FEEL like HighSec but player run. Currently NullSec is just a dead wasteland, whilst Empire feels like a sci-fi sim game where people are trading, random fights break out, crime happens. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:55:00 -
[143] - Quote
This topic again?!?!?
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Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
101
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 15:59:00 -
[144] - Quote
Ginger Barbarella wrote:This topic again?!?!?
yeah .. this topic again.
but as usual it's being approached from the "nerf highsec angle" so I can't take it seriously. |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
186
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 16:18:00 -
[145] - Quote
Muffini wrote:-Add pirate faction police and roaming CONCORD gangs who kill everyone in system
-Increase fuel cost of moon mining by 350% also cut their fuel bay by 350%
-Randomly reorder where the gates lead whenever there is a dust storm
-Add dust storms which affect entire constellations and drain all ships capacitors to 0%
Trolling non-sense aside, I've been asking for tougher rats across all parts of Eve for years. I absolutely LOVE the idea of roaming NPC pirate gangs, as long as they had teeth and could play by the same rules that we do (insert "NPCs cheat" mantra here). Gimme Cruiser and BC rats in .5 and .6 space, and the occassional rare BS rat in belts frequented by miners. Give them a chance to form up and fight for something (I doubt that would happen, but whatever). |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
333
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 16:24:00 -
[146] - Quote
I do all of my work in null. Research, invention, manufacturing, buying, and selling.
Most of the problems with indy aren't a null specific one, and a lot of it is more to do with the clicks than it does the ability to do it. If you have to use a PoS to do indy in null, you're corp or your alliance is ****. Some things are obviously going to require a PoS, but for general manufacturing and such, you should be able to do it in a station no problem.
More slots would be nice, but I don't think that's a huge issues. Knowing whether or not I can actually build what I want in a specific station is more of an issue than the number of slots available. It would be nice to be able to tell what lines are reserved for what type of manufacturing a little easier than it currently is. Or to be able to easily determine through the station services, while looking on the map, what I can build in each station. Indy isn't something I would describe as user friendly.
We have a lot of stations not being utilized for building stuff in Dek.
I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS? If so, how in the world is that "free"? Is there no cost associated with building a PoS?
The cost to manufacture in high sec needs to be raised, or corps need to be able to create considerably more slots in stations with no production cost. I would prefer the former over the later as it would increase the cost of goods in high sec, which would benefit null industrialists.
Instead of having 20 or 30, or whatever number it is, lines in a high sec station all with the same cost, I wouldn't mind if the minimum cost started at 5000 install with 2500 hour for a few of the lines and then increased costs for the rest. Spread high sec manufacturing out more, and increase competition for the best manufacturing slots in high sec.
Most everything else is an ease of use issue I think. The ability to quickly and easily see what is what and the number of clicks it takes to get from A to B in the building process.
I also want corps to be able to install mission agents in null stations so that people that live in null have some PvE they can do where they live, after all of the consumable content has already been done. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10061
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 16:37:00 -
[147] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS? No, we're talking about stations, which are so plentiful as to need no expenditure to increase the amount of accessible slots and so cheap as to be a decimal rounding error. Install costs for NPC station slots are effectively nil.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
|
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
101
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 16:55:00 -
[148] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS? No, we're talking about stations, which are so plentiful as to need no expenditure to increase the amount of accessible slots and so cheap as to be a decimal rounding error. Install costs for NPC station slots are effectively nil.
hisec slot pricing could probably do with a review. as an isk sink it's never been that effective, which i guess would have been the original intent for those fees. |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
333
|
Posted - 2012.10.21 16:57:00 -
[149] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Natsett Amuinn wrote:I'm assuming that when people talk about free manufacturing in high sec they're talking about building from a PoS? No, we're talking about stations, which are so plentiful as to need no expenditure to increase the amount of accessible slots and so cheap as to be a decimal rounding error. Install costs for NPC station slots are effectively nil.
See that's where I would sort of disagree.
Production costs in general, regardless of where you're doing it is cheap enough as to be more of a decimal rounding error. My production costs in VFK have no impact on the cost of my goods, or so rarely that I don't even factor it into my final costs.
It just happens to be considerably cheaper in high sec.
VFK has only 5 slots with 0 production costs, and about a dozen more that are just about at high sec levels, with the rest being higher than any station I've seen in high sec. However, even the highest costing lines in VFK are still a nonfactor when determining the final cost of goods.
I see a problem as far as the ability to mass produce in high sec and than import to null. Why build something that the pubies in high sec are selling at near production cost, when you can just import that item to sell in null and save your materials to build stuff that you can't import.
Raising production costs in high sec should raise the price of goods, and a drastic reduction in available lines across all stations in high sec should help to slow some of the overproduction in high sec that leads to drastically reduced prices; which may help to close a bit of the gap in pricing between high and null.
I feel that materials should be the primary source of importing and exporting between null and high. Null sec should have developed supply lines for things like low end minerals and salvage to come out of high sec and high ends moving out of null. This may mean actually having to increase the demand of high end minerals in high sec. However, this would be a drastic undertaking as CCP would have to go in and adjust the mineral requirements of basically every item, making high ends needed in pretty much all T1 production.
PS: It seems strange that the place were you need the most production, it's actually set up so that mass production isn't as worthwile. Even with considerably more people playing in high, null still sees more stuff getting blown up. Yet it's high sec that actually is priced to support mass production of goods. That just seems a little backwards to me. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10062
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Posted - 2012.10.21 17:09:00 -
[150] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:See that's where I would sort of disagree.
Production costs in general, regardless of where you're doing it is cheap enough as to be more of a decimal rounding error. My production costs in VFK have no impact on the cost of my goods, or so rarely that I don't even factor it into my final costs.
It just happens to be considerably cheaper in high sec. Well, sure. It's a question of how many epsilons there are in a delta.
It's still the combination of the two: the irrelevant cost of the slot and the non-existing need to spend money on additional slots. Each on their own might have been workably, but both combined just makes the situation silly. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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