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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
368
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP, you are about to implement not one, not two, but at least 3 different major changes to game mechanics, plus introduce Dust, plus overhaul 40 some odd ship hulls, plus seem to be in the midst of yet another overhaul of FW.
Let's look at some recent history:
Incursions: Introduced, and then hammered back into the stone age because CCP did not forsee the players industrializing them. FW: Overhauled, then hammered back into the stone age (yesterday) because CCP did not forsee the players industrializing them. Tech Moons: Took a long time to happen, but the players have managed to consolidate and industrialize them, and CCP has stated they want to overhaul the system.
In every case, the player base figured out the loopholes in the mechanisms, and maximized profit., skewing the game in a manner CCP ultimately did not like.
Now, you are planning on unleashing myriad changes, simultaneously. And given the incredibly short test windows CCP is allowing, it is impossible to have the long-term, widespread testing required to see how all these changes will interact.
Given the player base's intelligence, competitiveness, and greed, do you seriously believe that won't happen yet again? The players will game the heck out of these changes, and the unintended consequences can be immense. And that is just with one mechanism change. You are now talking about 3 changes, plus Dust, all at once.
Prior to the release of Apochrypha, you had multiple images showing up on Sisi, almost daily. I should know. I clearly remember anchoring a POS 3 days out of 4 in the wh system we were testing, since the old one vanished with the DT. You also gave us the ability to pretty much non-stop for 6 weeks prior to release on Sisi.
What is the harm of SLOWLY implementing these changes. Set up Sisi, Duality, or whatever server you want. Put all the changes on one server. Encourage the players, maybe even give them TQ SP, to test the hell out of the new systems on the test server. Give the players, and ultimately your dev's, 6 months to test the new systems and degug, overhaul, even scrap if necessary these new mechanisms before they make their way onto TQ.
Do you guys seriously believe that you can create bullet-proof systems and the players have enough time to examine every possible loophole in the time you have allotted for this next release? The player base has proven you wrong so many times, I can't understand why you don't pick up on this.
BTW, please think back to Apochrypha, the one release that we were allowed to test for a long time and had all kinds of changes on Sisi I described above? Yeah, now think about how few changes were made AFTER it was released. |
Jim Era
5733
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
it will be fun and exciting to watch all the new changes at once. It'll be like a new game. |
Tali Ambraelle
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
82
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
tl;dr |
Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
2843
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
First world problems. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ (my spaceblog) http://bit.ly/RB6X4C ~ (a¦á_a¦â) |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
318
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jim Era wrote:it will be fun and exciting to watch all the new changes at once. It'll be like a new game.
Yea, and new games are buggy as hell lol.
Kudos to Pirannha for a well thought out post advocating a bit of caution (which would save CCP time and money if they actually listen, instead of doing so much at once then spending months fixing it all instead of working on other stuff) without his standard null sec hate lol.
He's right though. I am not and will never be a doomsayer, but the way the process has been going with the AI changes (which aren't going to destroy the game but is just bad thinking IMO) has left a bad taste in my mouth. Already they've had to step back from a big part of it that they weren't even aware of (ie they said they won't change turret and overseer structure AI to the new AI because of how sites are designed), and the test server thread about the change is , well, horrible to read. Yet they still go ahead with it when a good few of us are point out potentially nasty consequences.
I appreciate CCP supporting the game, i hope they do so wisely, for their company's sake and for the sake of our favorite pastime. |
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp
3018
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't recall ever seeing players tell CCP "fewer new changes/features, please" before.
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½The daily saga of the New Order's quest to conquer all highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
baltec1
Bat Country
2542
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Im getting a sexier megathron!
If I go to fanfest next year I will buy whoever made the new mega the most outragious drink I can find!
Also other stuff. Dont rag on CCP for working on EVE, this is what we wanted. |
Azumi Zimu
Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
3
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
What the hell. What is your problem OP |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
259
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Campaign for changes ...whine when changes happen. Politics. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Cutter Isaacson
Nouvelle Rouvenor
1836
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Campaign for changes ...whine when changes happen.
:Aliens:.
Fixed your post for you
On topic, I'm really looking forward to the Winter expansion. So much new stuff to try out, new shinies to play with and a chance to practice tear extraction \o/
"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak. |
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Casirio
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
53
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:45:00 -
[11] - Quote
Adapt or die. Most of us actually welcome change. |
Azumi Zimu
Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry
3
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Time to hold off on all the things you've been working on CCP, it's too much for Dinsdale Pirannha |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
564
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:02:00 -
[13] - Quote
I hope the changes somehow go terribly wrong.
Always makes things interesting. As long as i can still log in i'm good. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Ginger Barbarella
State War Academy Caldari State
195
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:05:00 -
[14] - Quote
I, personally, would SERIOUSLY love to work QA for CCP. But I have a feeling that, like just about every other software development company out there, schedules overrule common sense and testing.
... said with 20+ years of professional software development experience... |
Ghazu
230
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oh no it will take months until eve-survival.com gets updated. |
Johnny Bloomington
Justified Chaos
28
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Im getting a sexier megathron!
If I go to fanfest next year I will buy whoever made the new mega the most outragious drink I can find!
Also other stuff. Dont rag on CCP for working on EVE, this is what we wanted.
Yes the new mega looks good but the old one did too. Gallente ships don't need remodels near as bad as Minmatar and Caldari ships! Oh look its a Blackbird... Looks like Lego's gone wrong. CCP is doing the right thing remodeling the stabber/vaga! CCP, can we see an Stabber Fleet Issue pic too?
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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
857
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Posted - 2012.10.24 18:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Confirming this will be completely awesome for everyone but high-sec zealots like OP. HTFU, n00b. Nothing Found |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
370
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Confirming this will be completely awesome for everyone but high-sec zealots like OP. HTFU, n00b.
What a well thought-out response. Your parents must be so proud of your literary skills.
Yes, when you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.
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Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
862
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
I love chocolat brb |
Robert De'Arneth
167
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:25:00 -
[20] - Quote
If it upsets Dinsdale, go for it!! Dinsdale is still upset he will no longer be able to *play* the game AFK. You have not lived until you have been Wated by Jim!!-á-á |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
692
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!
Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem?? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10088
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!
Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??
His drones keep dying to the new AI. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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usrevenge
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
3
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:53:00 -
[23] - Quote
well the FW change will be good, the tech moon changes who knows ( high value moons are/were sources of conflict). can't wait for dust. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
2650
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Quote:BTW, please think back to Apochrypha, the one release that we were allowed to test for a long time and had all kinds of changes on Sisi I described above? Yeah, now think about how few changes were made AFTER it was released.
Apochrypha was an excellent expansion in terms of content.
It was also the buggiest expansion that CCP has ever put out.
Selective memory for the win. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
373
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Posted - 2012.10.24 20:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!
Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??
Er.....the problem is essentially CCP has a long, unfortunate track record of implementing broken concepts or code.
Let's use FW, since the hammer fell on that concept yesterday . The desperately needed changes were not due to flawed coding, but a hugely flawed concept.
Take your pick of the following reasons that concept was implemented. Some may be true, others not, but at least one of them has to be true since CCP just erased big chunks of how they envisioned the new improved FW concept 6 months ago:
1. CCP did not think through the concept enough and did not recognize that the players would game the system perverting it from the way CCP envisioned it.
2. CCP ignored the players on the forums who recognized the problems with the concept before it went live.
3. CCP did not allow the players and devs enough time to thoroughly test the concept to avoid the exploitation that CCP just stopped.
And that was just one system. Now CCP is changing 3 new systems, overhauling FW AGAIN, and introducing Dust. That is way way too many moving parts to ensure that there will not be "unintended consequences"....drastic ones.
I am not saying that the general thrust behind these changes is not a step forward (OK, I think the AI change is idiocy). What I AM saying is there is no way CCP can get all these things right at the same time, especially given CCP's track record.
It would be far better to slow down the process, dump all these changes onto one server, and take months to analyze precisely how all these changes interact with the existing game. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
692
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 21:13:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I for one am excited by the upcoming changes.... and encourage them!!!!
Most of the changes have been discussed for quite a long time (ship changes, FW changes, etc). And many of them have been testable on the Test Servers for quite a while.... So what exactly is your problem??
Er.....the problem is essentially CCP has a long, unfortunate track record of implementing broken concepts or code. Let's use FW, since the hammer fell on that concept yesterday . The desperately needed changes were not due to flawed coding, but a hugely flawed concept. Take your pick of the following reasons that concept was implemented. Some may be true, others not, but at least one of them has to be true since CCP just erased big chunks of how they envisioned the new improved FW concept 6 months ago: 1. CCP did not think through the concept enough and did not recognize that the players would game the system perverting it from the way CCP envisioned it. 2. CCP ignored the players on the forums who recognized the problems with the concept before it went live. 3. CCP did not allow the players and devs enough time to thoroughly test the concept to avoid the exploitation that CCP just stopped. And that was just one system. Now CCP is changing 3 new systems, overhauling FW AGAIN, and introducing Dust. That is way way too many moving parts to ensure that there will not be "unintended consequences"....drastic ones. I am not saying that the general thrust behind these changes is not a step forward (OK, I think the AI change is idiocy). What I AM saying is there is no way CCP can get all these things right at the same time, especially given CCP's track record. It would be far better to slow down the process, dump all these changes onto one server, and take months to analyze precisely how all these changes interact with the existing game.
I think you miss a very important design philosophy of gaming....
They don't want a perfectly balanced system...
Incursions were originally extraordinarily profitable to draw people to it... when it got out of hand, they reigned it in... and tweaked again to find a nice place for it! The summer FW chagnes were again purposely overboosted to draw people to it... When things get out of hand, they reign them in again to try and create a nice place for it... When CCP revamped Sov, they overbosted it to draw people to it.... when things got out of hand, they reigned them in against to try and create a nice balance for it...
They will ALWAYS overboost and then nerf the new focus area of the game... this encourages players to keep trying the new profession of the month.... |
Devon Krah'tor
Magis.Erudire.Ratus.Knoen
3
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Posted - 2012.10.24 21:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Brute force and ignorance, as my dad always said.
Do your worst CCP, its very entertaining. Greater.Insight.Skill.Knowledge |
HVAC Repairman
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
238
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Posted - 2012.10.24 21:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
ship spinning needs iteration Follow me on twitter |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1965
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Posted - 2012.10.24 21:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Let's look at some recent history:
Incursions: Introduced, and then hammered back into the stone age because CCP did not forsee the players industrializing them. FW: Overhauled, then hammered back into the stone age (yesterday) because CCP did not forsee the players industrializing them. Tech Moons: Took a long time to happen, but the players have managed to consolidate and industrialize them, and CCP has stated they want to overhaul the system.
Note that in the case of Incursions, many of the changes were reverted due to the heavy-handedness of those changes.
In the case of Tech moons, there is an entire style of gameplay based on the income afforded by just those moons. Drastic changes to moon goo or Tech moons in particular will have a major impact on null sec.
In the case of Faction Warfare, even blind Freddy could see that the main form of income (complex spinning) did not encourage PvP, did not enrich the FW community, all the while distorting the economy by pushing module prices down and PLEX prices up.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:In every case, the player base figured out the loopholes in the mechanisms, and maximized profit., skewing the game in a manner CCP ultimately did not like.
In the case of Incursions, CCP changed the mechanics, found that the modifications broke the community, then changed some stuff back.
In the case of Tech moons, CCP is still trying to figure out how to "fix" the perceived problem without breaking the nullsec community.
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:BTW, please think back to Apochrypha, the one release that we were allowed to test for a long time and had all kinds of changes on Sisi I described above? Yeah, now think about how few changes were made AFTER it was released.
In the case of Apocrypha CCP was introducing not just a modified scanning mechanic but entirely new NPC AI, an entirely new mechanic for travelling to new star systems, and an entirely new system of building space ships (reverse engineering, hulls with subsystems). That warranted an extreme amount of public testing.
In the case of the FW changes that were made earlier this week there was a system that was clearly broken where the brokenness could be simply solved using existing game mechanics, i.e.: adjust the dungeon completion trigger so that it required two conditions to be met: button timer completed, and all NPCs destroyed. The damage that plex spinning was doing to EVE Online was far greater than any amount of breakage introduced as a result of the tweaks to FW complexes.
If you are going to have difficulties with missions due to the new AI being introduced in December, you might want to consider taking friends with you on your mission-running sprees.
Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Arduemont
Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
507
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Posted - 2012.10.24 21:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Just another whine thread, nothing to see here.
Adapt or unsub. |
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