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Mizuchi Kaliya
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I'm brand new to the game. Just finished up the tutorials last night, and am working through the career agents as of now.
As of now, I'm really interested in trading, eventually getting into manufacturing later on. I'm a bit lost on how to proceed though. I did a ton of research on the game before starting up, so I already know a lot of the basics. I figure I should avoid station trading in Jita 4-4 for now. I'm guessing my best bet would be to start with buying in one region and hauling it to another region (or just setting up a courier contract) to sell. My issue is that I'm still trying to figure out how to figure out what's worth buying/selling and what isn't. Being new, I'm having a hard time knowing what type of stuff is in demand and what isn't. On a basic level, I know that I can always work with moving ammo around to certain mission hubs, but that's really about it. I want to do the research and see what works and what doesn't, I'm just not sure HOW to do the research. I was poking around the market window last night, and it just doesn't make any sense at all to me (the graphs/tables, price history, etc.).
I am in no way asking "What items should I sell", I understand no one would want to crash their own markets by letting other traders know about it. I'm just wondering how to go about researching what's good and what isn't.
Also want to get into manufacturing at some point as well. I'll wait to at least get Production Efficiency IV. I figure I'll start with some ammo that has at least some profit return, and go from there. If anyone has any advice on this as well, that'd be awesome. Once again, just on how to break into it, not "What should I make".
I want to try to find a corp as well, to learn the ropes with. I don't think a brand new character would have an easy time getting into a trading/manufacturing corp. I could at least tackle or something for a PVP corp, but I doubt I could really offer much to an industrial one |
Jim Era
5734
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why buy and sell when you could create your own/kill people and steal your own stuff to sell. 100% profit.
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Berendas
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
261
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cross-region trading isn't a bad way to start out, you might not make bank right at the start start but keep in mind that the returns go up exponentially as you accrue capital and cargo space.
Some advice that might not be obvious to someone new; use your 2 extra character slots for no-skill alts and park them in market hubs. This will allow you to get a good idea of the typical buying/selling prices for goods in different regions.
Some good hub systems to consider...
-Jita -Amarr -Rens -Dodixie -Hek |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1687
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Trading, as you've probably realised, is extremely competitive.
The way I started was to base myself a couple of jumps outside a smaller hub and do a few missions to see what dropped as loot. I checked on the prices of the loot in surrounding systems and then in the hub, mission runners can be lazy and sell their loot in the station they base out of rather than go a few jumps to a hub to get a better price, so I'd set up buy orders covering 2 to 3 jumps around my base of operations.
I started out small & found that it's not unusual to buy an item for between 5k and 10k, ship it a couple of jumps and get 30k for it, bread and butter money I know, but when you do it with large quantities it adds up real fast. You can also buy up what I call "melt deals" these are items that sell for below the cost of the minerals it takes to make them, buy them up, reprocess them and sell the minerals.
For a halfway decent primer on trading you won't go far wrong reading the Eve Uni Wiki page on it, it covers basic understanding of the graphs presented in the market, external websites to help you find trade runs, and the skills needed to make trading easier on your wallet.
Jita is Somalia in space, full of horrible spambots and scams. Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
Mizuchi Kaliya
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
I had figured returns wouldn't be great at the start, but that's perfectly okay. I kinda knew things would start slow and ramp up from there. I've also put a quick spreadsheet together as well so that I can keep track of what taxes and broker fees will cost me, so hopefully I'm covered there as well. I just need to figure out what works and what doesn't.
Those experienced with this, how much info on the market graphs is important? I figure the amount being traded per day is a big one, and unfortunately that's the only part of it that really makes sense to me at a glance. |
Mizuchi Kaliya
University of Caille Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:49:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Trading, as you've probably realised, is extremely competitive. The way I started was to base myself a couple of jumps outside a smaller hub and do a few missions to see what dropped as loot. I checked on the prices of the loot in surrounding systems and then in the hub, mission runners can be lazy and sell their loot in the station they base out of rather than go a few jumps to a hub to get a better price, so I'd set up buy orders covering 2 to 3 jumps around my base of operations. I started out small & found that it's not unusual to buy an item for between 5k and 10k, ship it a couple of jumps and get 30k for it, bread and butter money I know, but when you do it with large quantities it adds up real fast. You can also buy up what I call "melt deals" these are items that sell for below the cost of the minerals it takes to make them, buy them up, reprocess them and sell the minerals. For a halfway decent primer on trading you won't go far wrong reading the Eve Uni Wiki page on it, it covers basic understanding of the graphs presented in the market, external websites to help you find trade runs, and the skills needed to make trading easier on your wallet. Jita is Somalia in space, full of horrible spambots and scams.
Thanks a ton for this, it helps a lot! I hadn't even thought of buying up drops from lazy mission runners. If anything, it gives me a starting point. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1687
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Mizuchi Kaliya wrote:I had figured returns wouldn't be great at the start, but that's perfectly okay. I kinda knew things would start slow and ramp up from there. I've also put a quick spreadsheet together as well so that I can keep track of what taxes and broker fees will cost me, so hopefully I'm covered there as well. I just need to figure out what works and what doesn't.
Those experienced with this, how much info on the market graphs is important? I figure the amount being traded per day is a big one, and unfortunately that's the only part of it that really makes sense to me at a glance.
Don't ignore the other things on the graph it shows potential profits, the spread of prices , as well as amount traded. There's an explanation for it linked via the Eve Uni link above.
You'll make money, you'll lose money and if it looks too good to be true, it is.
Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
Jim Era
5734
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Posted - 2012.10.24 16:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
jonah, can you explain the margin trading scam? I hear about it all the time and how it rapes budding traders. But as I don't trade myself I don't know enough to warn this guy. |
Berendas
Clandestine Vector THE SPACE P0LICE
268
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 17:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Here's the best explanation on the Margin Scam I've been able to find: Link |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1687
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 17:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jim Era wrote:jonah, can you explain the margin trading scam? I hear about it all the time and how it rapes budding traders. But as I don't trade myself I don't know enough to warn this guy.
Best explanation I've seen of it
This one hurts, it can wipe out billions of isk in a matter of seconds, and it's totally legal in Eve, if a little immoral. However, you should only get caught by it once, if at all. I've been caught by it and am the not so proud owner of a Mammoth with a station module in the hold that's worthless, owes me 600 million isk, the ship is called the fools gold :(
I can't stress this enough
IF IT SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, IT IS Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
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Robert De'Arneth
167
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nothing to add, but a giant welcome to EVE online. Enjoy your stay!! You have not lived until you have been Wated by Jim!!-á-á |
Mizuchi Kaliya
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Berendas wrote:Here's the best explanation on the Margin Scam I've been able to find: Link=Edit: A general synopsis for the linked thread= -Margin scammers buy out the market on an item and relist the items at a huge markup. -They then set enticing buy orders for an ISK value far above their own sell orders. The buy order(s) however has/have a minimum amount of items set that can be sold to that order, the minimum value is set to close to the total amount in all the overpriced sell orders. -The Margin Trading skill allows a scammer to only put ~25% of a buy order's money down, so they can put down the required escrow then transfer all that character's ISK to an alt, leaving the buy order impossible to fill because the "buyer" has no ISK. -The scam relies on people's greed, someone looking at the market details for the 'rigged' item will see the disparity in sell orders and buy orders and try to make a quick buck. They buy out the overpriced sell orders (which makes the scammer their money) and attempt to sell to the buy order. Upon doing so, the buy order is canceled because the scammer does not have enough ISK to cover the remaining ~75% of the order. This leaves the "victim" with a bunch of overpriced goods that they will be forced to keep or sell at a loss.
Ah, gotcha. I see how it works now. I had heard of the scam before when I was looking into the game, but wasn't 100% sure on how it worked. This should definitely help me to avoid the scam. I'll just try and avoid anything with a minimum amount on a buy order. |
Yoni Katsura
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.10.24 17:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
One thing I will say about offers you see in local chat:
Almost every sell offer in Jita is a scam. If must be up near 90% or higher.
The same is true for offers in other systems, but not as many of those are scams.
The best thing you can do is assume that they are ALL potentially a scam, and that you need to look them over extremely carefully. Get out a calculator if you have to, but NEVER rush into a purchase from another player unless you triple check it.
Even if you see buy orders for an item listed, don't think you will be able to sell it at that price. Some scams set up those buy orders as part of the scam, and you will see it evaporate when you try to sell it.
Before you deal directly with players, spend a while in the game and learn it. You can make billions of ISK without ever dealing directly with another player. Learn the market first.
P.S. There are some decent videos on Youtube about how to avoid EVE scams. I suggest watching some of them. |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
336
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 19:10:00 -
[14] - Quote
Think of where certain things might drop and where they might sell. Move said items, profit. Think of where certain things can be bought and where they might be needed, move said items, profit.
Its common sense really. You just need some knowledge of whats going on in eve. Selling fitted catalysts in ice belt systems during hulkageddon for example (don't do this, probably hundreds doing it already but its an example). |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1693
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 19:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Think of where certain things might drop and where they might sell. Move said items, profit. Think of where certain things can be bought and where they might be needed, move said items, profit.
Its common sense really. You just need some knowledge of whats going on in eve. Selling fitted catalysts in ice belt systems during hulkageddon for example (don't do this, probably hundreds doing it already but its an example).
^^ Where there's ganking there's profit Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
J'Poll
KIngs of the Underground Side Effect.
465
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 20:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Think of where certain things might drop and where they might sell. Move said items, profit. Think of where certain things can be bought and where they might be needed, move said items, profit.
Its common sense really. You just need some knowledge of whats going on in eve. Selling fitted catalysts in ice belt systems during hulkageddon for example (don't do this, probably hundreds doing it already but its an example).
Same with minerals...buy them cheap just before hulkageddon starts and then sell them during/shortly after as prices will rise slightly.
Or stock up on mining ships, plenty of people loose them during hulkageddon and want them replaced.
If there is a major SOV war, move ships and ammo close to it and stick it on markets for good prices. People will loose ships and need replacements.
Succeeding in Industry (or EVE) is knowing what you are doing, knowing the game mechanics and knowing what is going on in EVE. Inject your skillbook before you leave the station. Neo didnGÇÖt learn Kung-Fu by having it sit in his usb drive.-á If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, poke it with your gun and then shoot it. We are not running, we are advancing in the opposite direction |
Mizuchi Kaliya
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 20:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
This is all incredibly helpful guys, I really appreciate it. I'll do some looking around tonight and start getting an idea of what gets sold and what sells where.
I figure best bet would be to start with maybe ammo or something. Start looking into what drops in what systems as well. Is there a useful resource to find what drops in what systems?
Also, the median on the market graph (the yellow dots, I think that's what they're called). I'm still trying to wrap my head around those. Everything else makes sense on the graph, but this one part is still confusing me a bit. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Mahatma Cote Temporal Research
1694
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 21:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mizuchi Kaliya wrote: Start looking into what drops in what systems as well. Is there a useful resource to find what drops in what systems?
Not as far as I know, they only way I found of doing it was to run some missions, as a general rule though frigates and destroyers (lvl 1,2,3 & 4 missions) will drop appropriate size modules, the same goes for cruisers and battlecruisers (lvl 2,3 & 4 missions) & battleships (lvl 4 missions). In gallente space you'll be probably going up against serpentis NPCs, I have no idea what they'll drop but armor modules, race specific guns, ammo and some drones would be a best guess as the Serpentis ships are based on Gallente ones. Homo sapiens non urinat in ventum -á-á-á ---CCP can't patch stupid--- |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
337
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 23:06:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mizuchi Kaliya wrote: Is there a useful resource to find what drops in what systems?
Not really, but most mods have racial profiles. Bloods drop lasers, armour mods and engineering mods for example. Really the loot drop thing is more prevalent in null sec where the loot is specific to local rats (with missions its more random). For example I used to make a fortune buying all the solace large reps in fountain. Before that i made even more buying up all the meta 4 medium lasers in period basis. There isn't nearly as much isk to be made from named mods these days though. |
Talos Valasar
Kingfisher Industries The Gentlemen's Club of EVE
0
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 07:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Mizuchi Kaliya wrote:I want to try to find a corp as well, to learn the ropes with. I don't think a brand new character would have an easy time getting into a trading/manufacturing corp. I could at least tackle or something for a PVP corp, but I doubt I could really offer much to an industrial one While you might not be offering an industrial corp as much as a seasoned character would, I don't agree you can't find a corp. One of the first things I did in the game was to research a bunch of corps (mostly by looking at the forum, but also searching in-game) and then whittle down the list by researching them/speaking with them. There are lots of corps that will take in new players. |
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Max Godsnottlingson
Bitter Veterans
2
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Posted - 2012.10.25 08:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
One important point to remember with Eve, is that Eve is a PvP game. Now the mistake people make is they automatically think that PvP is just combat. But it is not.
You can fight some equally vicious amd nasty battles on the trading markets, or even just at the asteroid belts as you try to suck up rocks faster then that other guy.
But that is what makes Eve. The trade game is not everybodies cup of tea, it takes a lot of hard work and persistance to do well but it equally as satisfying as any of the "pewpew" PvP. Just remember, that scamming, driving hard bargains and trying to off-load a load of crap at high prices are all part of the game, there are no nice cushions to help soften the fall, when it comes, as it comes to us all on occasion.
If I remember right, because the trade side of the game is so deep and complex, I have a memory that there is at least one RL university has made a deal with CCP that lets them use the Eve markets as a teaching tool.
A lot of our 'friends' who like to sit camping low sec gates often don't understand that what they do is nothing more then mugging folks for peanuts. The real PvP happens on the markets and trade floors. There people make, and loose billions! By the way, that's not a dig at player pirates, just highlighting that what they make is nothing to a good well executed trade deal/scam.
Getting to grips with the trade/manufacturing side of the game will take you time and effort, but it's also one of the most rewarding and fun sides of the game |
Mizuchi Kaliya
University of Caille Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 17:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Well I'm already starting to get at least a basic handle on things. I took my 300k to one of the quieter trade hubs and have already turned it into 1.7mil in the last day or so. Not much, but that's still a nice gain considering the small amount I had to work with.
I'm just station trading for now. I started looking at cross region trading, but it seems like it would be pretty hard to break into without having a larger amount of ISK to work with. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1063
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 21:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
minning + industry help |
J'Poll
Kings of the Underground Side Effect.
467
|
Posted - 2012.10.25 21:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Max Godsnottlingson wrote:One important point to remember with Eve, is that Eve is a PvP game. Now the mistake people make is they automatically think that PvP is just combat. But it is not.
You can fight some equally vicious amd nasty battles on the trading markets, or even just at the asteroid belts as you try to suck up rocks faster then that other guy.
But that is what makes Eve. The trade game is not everybodies cup of tea, it takes a lot of hard work and persistance to do well but it equally as satisfying as any of the "pewpew" PvP. Just remember, that scamming, driving hard bargains and trying to off-load a load of crap at high prices are all part of the game, there are no nice cushions to help soften the fall, when it comes, as it comes to us all on occasion.
If I remember right, because the trade side of the game is so deep and complex, I have a memory that there is at least one RL university has made a deal with CCP that lets them use the Eve markets as a teaching tool.
A lot of our 'friends' who like to sit camping low sec gates often don't understand that what they do is nothing more then mugging folks for peanuts. The real PvP happens on the markets and trade floors. There people make, and loose billions! By the way, that's not a dig at player pirates, just highlighting that what they make is nothing to a good well executed trade deal/scam.
Getting to grips with the trade/manufacturing side of the game will take you time and effort, but it's also one of the most rewarding and fun sides of the game
Not to mention that CCP actually has a guy on the payroll that studied Economics and just works for them to monitor the game market. Inject your skillbook before you leave the station. Neo didnGÇÖt learn Kung-Fu by having it sit in his usb drive.-á If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, poke it with your gun and then shoot it. We are not running, we are advancing in the opposite direction |
Cajun Style
Shattered Planet
3
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Posted - 2012.10.28 01:49:00 -
[25] - Quote
Hey so I've made a fair bit of isk trading handling both my own isk and the is of my buddies. Let me just say that as someone who loves trading a bunch, you should learn other areas of the game to get better insight into how the economy works, what content is run where, what content produces what goods, and what ships are popular and why in pvp. moreover, getting more active in various types of corps and seeing different parts of the game will give you great opportunities to have fun and to make p your initial capital. i think the investment in better pve ships early on will lead to better isk/hr than if you invest in themarkets as someone with little is or knowledge of the game's economy. anyway, that's my 0.02 isk, good luck to you whatever you do, and kudos if you can make it as a trader in eve with little knowledge of other parts of the game or any intial capital to work with, and feel free to drop me an in-game mail. also, beware suicide ganking and inlation/deflation, you stand to lose more isk more quickly and in less dignified ways than absolutely anyone else anywhere in the game. |
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