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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.24 23:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
The other day I posted "My Tamagotchi DIED!". It was locked, it was scoffed at. It was ridiculed. It was meant to be. But ask why I posted on it? [insert jocular retort here]
A while ago I posted about making production possible only if you were there. It was scoffed at. It was ridiculed. But did anyone stop and ask why I posted it? [insert jocular retort here]
For those that have continued past obvious......
Let's talk about TIME.
Spreadsheet jockeys (some call them a-retentives) calculate time to acquire resources in their production runs. They jiggle and wriggle the numbers, set up the production chain and take it to market.
They set up the sell order and - wait - some &%$@ so-and-so has undercut prices! You go back to your spreadsheet, jiggle and wriggle some more, trying to squeeze out every last drop of isk.
And you STILL can't compete.
Obviously, the first thought is the game is broken, CCP fix this, balance that, reward/risk ratio is out, highsec needs to be nerfed, 0.0 needs to pull their heads in and away we go. Argument, angst, forum PvP, you name it.
But wait....
See that little column called TIME in your spreadsheet? Delete it. I bet you my talking donkey to your dancing rooster that you now have a sell price that competes? It does doesn't it?
Simply put, many, many players in Eve do not charge for time because there is no VR cost to being online. They can even produce while they sleep. It costs them nothing in time even when online to do the things they do, like mining, missioning.
We can talk about efficiences, supply/demand, we can do CBA's and apply any RL economic theory we want - all incidentally discovered and perpetuated by people that charge by the hour who must - get this - eat, drink, sleep, have staff, offices and overheads. TIME in the economically theorised land of RL is real and costs.
In Eve, TIME has zero cost to the individual. (Yes, it has a percieved cost but no actual cost - and you can theorize all you like on this - some people simply will NOT calculate time - they don't have to!)
So the 2 things I was leading to in those poo-poo threads are thus.
Thread 1: Make online chars COST to be online. It might be food, drink, whatever. While you're online there must be a direct and attributable cost - even if you do NOTHING. Perhaps CCP may have thought this at some point, they gave us milk, livestock and Quafe. (aka. Tamagotchi thread)
Thread 2: Make production occur ONLY when you are there. We do not and cannot produce in RL unless we are there so how come we can in Eve? If we intend to RL theorize, maybe we need to apply the obvious RL restriction to production - i.e. your presence (i.e. ATK production thread)
Examples of possible (I emphasize POSSIBLE) ideas
i) Fees payable to be IN a system - escalating as security get's higher? (Concord protection tax?) ii) Food, drink etc. iii) Fuel for ships. iV) ATK production. Not there, nothing happens.
I bet there are lots more. I'd also add that a large portion of issues for people in EVe, from ALL areas, from ALL professions, would be somewhat "fixed" if our mere presence could be costed in real terms.
TL:DR & Q: >> If we put a REAL cost on TIME would half the "problems" in Eve be as good as fixed?
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
um maybe on idea 1
no for idea 2.
EVE has gone to great lengths to make this game different from other games that gave players a leg up on others simply by having more online time. Idea 2 is not themattic with eve dogma.
EVE does not have to have and is not required to have any connection with RL.
IE. It does not matter to use references from RL for a model for EVE to follow. There is absolutely no connection between the two. EVE does a lot of things not realistic for game play purposes to make it fun. RL has no bearing on EVE. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Shederov Blood
Wrecketeers
106
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:I bet you my talking donkey to your dancing rooster that you now have a sell price that competes? I swear I tried to read the whole thing, but after this I couldn't stop thinking about cocks and asses. |
Azami Nevinyrall
Homeworld Republic Intrepid Crossing
478
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Downhill, very fast... Apperently I'm on twitter now... @AzamiNevinyrall |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
857
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
I started reading but realized it would take too much time to finish. vOv Nothing Found |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:IE. It does not matter to use references from RL for a model for EVE to follow. There is absolutely no connection between the two. EVE does a lot of things not realistic for game play purposes to make it fun. RL has no bearing on EVE. Bu that's the problem. People are and then attribute it to the game being broken or a nerf neccessary.
Countless threads regarding a neccessity to increase cost to production and nerfing minerals when in fact the problem is that you can mine all day for zero cost (T2 crystals aside).
People are not attributing time to acquisition while those complaining about costs/prices do.
The spreadsheets they use is an RL application using RL theory. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Arduemont
Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
508
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
There comes a time in ever shiptosters life that he has made so many **** threads that people no longer read them. That time has come. I read about two lines and them remembered your other posts. Prepare to never have any more of your posts read again. |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:IE. It does not matter to use references from RL for a model for EVE to follow. There is absolutely no connection between the two. EVE does a lot of things not realistic for game play purposes to make it fun. RL has no bearing on EVE. Bu that's the problem. People are and then attribute it to the game being broken or a nerf neccessary. Countless threads regarding a neccessity to increase cost to production and nerfing minerals when in fact the problem is that you can mine all day for zero cost (T2 crystals aside). People are not attributing time to acquisition while those complaining about costs/prices do. The spreadsheets they use is an RL application using RL theory.
Using RL for comparison is fail. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Jim Era
5762
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm going to go ahead and pop a wat on this thread.
-Jim Era |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
713
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arduemont wrote:There comes a time in ever shiptosters life that he has made so many **** threads that people no longer read them. That time has come. I read about two lines and them remembered your other posts. Prepare to never have any more of your posts read again.
But you see he got blown up while in FA once so he knows all about nullsec.
-Jim era |
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3176
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
I had a tamagotchi "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |
lanyaie
673
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:I started reading but realized it would take too much time to finish. vOv
Exactly I just skipped to the short comments and yours was the first that was just one line and wasn't quite random. Hay |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1611
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Posted - 2012.10.25 00:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Arduemont wrote:There comes a time in ever shiptosters life that he has made so many **** threads that people no longer read them. That time has come. I read about two lines and them remembered your other posts. Prepare to never have any more of your posts read again. But you see he got blown up while in FA once so he knows all about nullsec. -Jim era Even newbies can get blown up more than that. Shameful display.
Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
625
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Posted - 2012.10.25 01:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hi,
It's an interesting thing - I do wonder what it solves though? After all if time mattered - does EVE turn into a grind like other .. err .. places ?
Anyway, thanks for an interesting post - I look forward to seeing what debate it brings.
I've unfortunately had to remove some off-topic and non-constructive posts. Please keep it on topic; I'd much rather contribute than snip.
Thanks and fly safe!
ISD Suvetar,-áCaptain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department We are hiring! |
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 01:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:IE. It does not matter to use references from RL for a model for EVE to follow. There is absolutely no connection between the two. EVE does a lot of things not realistic for game play purposes to make it fun. RL has no bearing on EVE. Bu that's the problem. People are and then attribute it to the game being broken or a nerf neccessary. Countless threads regarding a neccessity to increase cost to production and nerfing minerals when in fact the problem is that you can mine all day for zero cost (T2 crystals aside). People are not attributing time to acquisition while those complaining about costs/prices do. The spreadsheets they use is an RL application using RL theory. Using RL for comparison is fail. Yes. It is. So why do people insist on doing it?
The great debate raging is that nerfing highsec will make 0.0 industry better. The argument is that highsec items cost less than the minerals used. Which they do.
And apparently, fixing 0.0 indy by crippling highsec industry will fix this. Of course not. Because the person importing will STILL not calculate time. Even if you add a highsec cost to indy, you could cripple it for all the difference it will make, he'll just move to 0.0 and do exactly the same thing.
He will win the market war - every single time - because he has removed (incorrectly or otherwise) a cost that IS added by his competition.
(anyone ever noticed that low wage costs - i.e. cost of time - are the primary reason why many companies produce overseas? - think about it...)
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.10.25 01:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:IE. It does not matter to use references from RL for a model for EVE to follow. There is absolutely no connection between the two. EVE does a lot of things not realistic for game play purposes to make it fun. RL has no bearing on EVE. Bu that's the problem. People are and then attribute it to the game being broken or a nerf neccessary. Countless threads regarding a neccessity to increase cost to production and nerfing minerals when in fact the problem is that you can mine all day for zero cost (T2 crystals aside). People are not attributing time to acquisition while those complaining about costs/prices do. The spreadsheets they use is an RL application using RL theory. Using RL for comparison is fail. Yes. It is. So why do people insist on doing it? (anyone ever noticed that low wage costs - i.e. cost of time - are the primary reason why many companies produce overseas? - think about it...)
Really what part of using RL for comparison is fail did you not understand? Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Sarmea Moon
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
54
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Confirming mins YOU mine are free. I, on the other hand, will buy up that underpriced junk you throw up on the market, reprocess it, and make a profit all day long for a few seconds work:D
PLEASE mine more free mins for me, please?
I'd like to give a shout out to Fuzzworks, whose site lets me figure out in seconds what's worth reprocessing without spending time with spreadsheets.
I'll continue to mine whatever the best isk/m3 ore is, and use the cash to buy up the cheaper ores, when I feel like mining. The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse [lady of commercial virtue]. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.- James Nicoll |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:06:00 -
[18] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Touval Lysander wrote: (anyone ever noticed that low wage costs - i.e. cost of time - are the primary reason why many companies produce overseas? - think about it...)
Really what part of using RL for comparison is fail did you not understand? I'm not. THEY are.
The low wages point is exactly the theory THEY use to justify VR costing. I'm pointing out that is where the theory comes from.
I AGREE with you. They should not.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sarmea Moon wrote:Confirming mins YOU mine are free. I, on the other hand, will buy up that underpriced junk you throw up on the market, reprocess it, and make a profit all day long for a few seconds work:D
PLEASE mine more free mins for me, please?
This man gets it.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Touval Lysander wrote: (anyone ever noticed that low wage costs - i.e. cost of time - are the primary reason why many companies produce overseas? - think about it...)
Really what part of using RL for comparison is fail did you not understand? I'm not. THEY are. The low wages point is exactly the theory THEY use to justify VR costing. I'm pointing out that is where the theory comes from. I AGREE with you. They should not.
But you have been through out this entire thread. You are using RL reasons to support your ideas. I do not care what they are doing. They are not in this thread you are.
Give game related mechanics and game related reasons to support ideas please. Just because it happens in RL that way has no bearing on EVE. Game mechanics work to support EVE not RL mechanics. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
7
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think the reason most people that play this game do not count their time as being a cost is simple really.
It is because everything they do in this game is play. I don't know about you, but I do not consider my cost per hour when I play chess, or when I play axis and allies, or Euchre, or PS3. Or when I go to the park and play. My play time is invaluable. Not that is has no value, but invaluable in the sense that you cannot assign a value to it.
Now my work time has a real value....whatever the market will bear. This is a different thing.
Eve is a game, and as such, I cannot put a price on the time I spend in the game.
I think that is one reason why I do not count the value of my time. If I valued it at the same rate I do my regular job, I would never play this game. ISD Cura Ursus Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
1966
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
How about if the monthly subscription kept your account active for 30 days and allowed 90 hours of login time?
Then if you ran out of login time, you would have to renew your license with a PLEX.
Or perhaps you could have two flavours of PLEX: a CONCORD PLEX for 30 days of subscription, then a Galnet Service Ticket for 90 hours of connection to the Galnet fluid relay communication system. The PLEX would include a complimentary GaST, as would real world subscriptions (a yearly subscription could include 1080 hours, or spawn 12 GaST in the redeeming system, or some combination of the two).
This would ensure that people don't waste their lives sitting in front of the computer (sitting kills you, blah blah), ensure that players are aware of the value of time, and completely obviate the need for ingame consumables such as food or fuel.
Particularly enterprising individuals might decide to trade GaST for ISK, providing a second market for speculators to ruin :) Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:How about if the monthly subscription kept your account active for 30 days and allowed 90 hours of login time?
Particularly enterprising individuals might decide to trade GaST for ISK, providing a second market for speculators to ruin :)
No good at all. If you place a monetary value on time in game then CCP owes a person a refund for any unused time at the end of 30 days. Any hours of that 90 left over needs to be refunded to the player.
Subs pay for the operation of CCP not for the operation of the player in EVE.
This is very wrong for EVE. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:32:00 -
[24] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Touval Lysander wrote: (anyone ever noticed that low wage costs - i.e. cost of time - are the primary reason why many companies produce overseas? - think about it...)
Really what part of using RL for comparison is fail did you not understand? I'm not. THEY are. The low wages point is exactly the theory THEY use to justify VR costing. I'm pointing out that is where the theory comes from. I AGREE with you. They should not. But you have been through out this entire thread. You are using RL reasons to support your ideas. I do not care what they are doing. They are not in this thread you are. Give game related mechanics and game related reasons to support ideas please. Just because it happens in RL that way has no bearing on EVE. Game mechanics work to support EVE not RL mechanics. How can I counter the argument THEY use by not highlighting the argument THEY use?
I don't calculate the time I play. That's why I will always beat those that do. I play for fun. I play to KILL time. It's FREE TIME.
As an ISD just said, and he's right, if my time was that valuable, I would simply not play.
Where people insist on using RL time as a cost in a VR world then I'd point them straight away to much better uses of their time - in RL - to make their VR time even MORE valuable. You can't have both unless you're prepared to use both.
I'm trying to point this out. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Herr Hammer Draken
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
141
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
And that is why this thread in invalid from the start. It is simply trying to win an argument started in another thread . It has no valid game related mechanic to stand on its own. Good day. Herr Hammer Draken "The Amarr Prophet" |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:Mara Rinn wrote:How about if the monthly subscription kept your account active for 30 days and allowed 90 hours of login time?
Particularly enterprising individuals might decide to trade GaST for ISK, providing a second market for speculators to ruin :) No good at all. If you place a monetary value on time in game then CCP owes a person a refund for any unused time at the end of 30 days. Any hours of that 90 left over needs to be refunded to the player. Subs pay for the operation of CCP not for the operation of the player in EVE. This is very wrong for EVE. Try having a chat to your ISP for unused Gb's at EOM... They'll tell you straight away that the cost is the availability, not the usage.
Being available for you to use at anytime, for any length is a cost they endure regardless of what you do. That includes CCP.
Perhaps you actually meant >> "Subs pay for the operation of CCP not for the operation of the player in EVE." - which is correct
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
481
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Posted - 2012.10.25 02:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
Herr Hammer Draken wrote:And that is why this thread in invalid from the start. It is simply trying to win an argument started in another thread . It has no valid game related mechanic to stand on its own. Good day. Are there ostriches in Eve or is that only an RL thing?
Nonetheless, Good day to you too Sir. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Opertone
Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
166
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Posted - 2012.10.25 04:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
if you can't compete with current market trend - give it more time, it will sort out over time. |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1745
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Posted - 2012.10.25 05:10:00 -
[29] - Quote
ISD Cura Ursus wrote: Now my work time has a real value....whatever the market will bear. This is a different thing.
Eve is a game, and as such, I cannot put a price on the time I spend in the game.
Valid point is valid.
But I'd just like to point out that CCP has managed to assign 2 values to your invaluable game time:
1) $14.95 for 30 days....
2) $20.00 or 550 mil isk for the same 30 days....
How you choose to value those 30 days is up to you. Allot like your annual leave then... Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
482
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Posted - 2012.10.25 05:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:ISD Cura Ursus wrote: Now my work time has a real value....whatever the market will bear. This is a different thing.
Eve is a game, and as such, I cannot put a price on the time I spend in the game.
Valid point is valid. But I'd just like to point out that CCP has managed to assign 2 values to your invaluable game time: 1) $14.95 for 30 days.... 2) $20.00 or 550 mil isk for the same 30 days.... How you choose to value those 30 days is up to you. Allot like your annual leave then... I thought PLEX was US $14.95?
Is $20.00 an exchange difference?
(I don't buy them so I don't know) "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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